2long, you suggested you may have waited too long to implement some plan, but intellectually you know different. This isn't even a question of hindsight being 20/20. If your heart hadn't been handed to you 3 1/2 years ago you would have conducted yourself differently at that time. Consider AFTER d-day and on several occassions I hosted OM and sheepishly served him drinks while my W had a grand old time. HOW I wish I had that to over again. I'm not trying to threadjack but wanted to remind you that you and I did the very best we could with the tools we had at the time.

After all it isn't our W's affairs that are going to end our marriages, it's they're unwillingness to end them. I'll relate it to this; the first thing you should do when you find yourself in a hole, is to put down the shovel.

And you're right about the fatalistic pessimism. When I repeat the same themes as my W, it is perceived completely differently and disrespectful. Now that my indifference matches her comments I would say she is more hesitant to make those kind of comments. I recently made a very innocent comment; "Oh our life". She jumped on it, "what do you mean "our life". So only she is allowed to have the negative/defensive/parachute view of marriage. When I adopt the same, it is very unsettling for her. Looking forward to more empthanies.

I didn't want 2 respond either! - ok, well I did, but been playing with words, don't quite know what to say!

I like that WOE, "it's not the affairs, it the unwillingness to end them"! Sounds like me and mine (WH's unwillingness to be honest).

2long, I really luv ya you ol' grump!

Of course if hurts to hear the STUPID things that your W is saying. But they are her feelings,stupid as they may be. On the other hand, it would be worse to KNOW that she felt them and wouldn't admit. Maybe? Oh, I dunno , the words are still not flowing right.

I just think that you really have done the best you could, and you still are. And that's really something. Pretty darn good actually!

jls

“When I repeat the same themes as my W, it is perceived completely differently and disrespectful. Now that my indifference matches her comments I would say she is more hesitant to make those kinds of comments. I recently made a very innocent comment; "Oh our life". She jumped on it, "what do you mean "our life". So only she is allowed to have the negative/defensive/parachute view of marriage. When I adopt the same, it is very unsettling for her.”

This is so true, WOE. I have noticed the same thing with my W. She allows herself to be as negative as she likes, any time she likes. But she considers me completely out of line if she even remotely perceives me as negative about our R if even for an instant.

As I perfect my loving detachment, I find myself less and less concerned with this. I find myself expressing my negative feelings in non LB ways now much more than I used to. And I am not much concerned with her emotional reactions. Only with her reasoned discussions.

She is rather disconcerted by all this. I can tell. The paradigm is shifting (gad, I hate that phrase). But, I feel better than I have in a long time and she is somewhat more concerned with my feelings – more than she has been since she met OM 12 years ago. Wheather her concerns will translate into true and total NC will be the acid test.

I cannot predict anything yet. But the dynamics in our M are definitely changing. I just wish change was not so hard.

with prayers,

PS: I have 2long and Alanon to thank for most of my insights into loving detachment.

Aphelion, I read a theory here a long time ago that would seem to apply to us. And that is, that most BS's stay in the M until it is no longer painful to leave. Sort of like letting the LB run out before leaving. I truly hope that is not what's at work, but I wonder if we'd know it consciously.

I have absolutely felt the same shift of power in my M. BTW my W has had 3 consecutive EA's including this one. The time span is about 8 years in total. So it has also taken me a long time to reach this epithany. Each of her EA's was culminated with her attempting to move them to PA's. That's what woke up the OM in each case. If they had any interest it was ended once they understood her more serious interest.

But I think you would agree that the real movement in the case came when WE started to change; not them. I'm getting much more business like in my approach to things and taking the emotion out of it. I finally joined her at pool which she likes because it gives our marriage credibility with this group. But if OM's number continues to appear on her cell bill I will leave the team and leave it to her to explain why. I would never have considered something like this before. Because in the past I would only worry about her feelings. Now it's simply; what's right.

The really cool part about this forum is this comparing notes. It really gives you the strength and clarity to see through the FOG.

Sorry for the brief threadjack but I had to say this:

"Aphelion, I read a theory here a long time ago that would seem to apply to us. And that is, that most BS's stay in the M until it is no longer painful to leave. Sort of like letting the LB run out before leaving. I truly hope that is not what's at work, but I wonder if we'd know it consciously."

Omigod, that rings clear and ?true? !

And that stuff about negativity... my H can say sarcastic mean things to me all day long (not usually for that long tho) and the moment I say sumpin back, I am "mean". I was accused of being too hard to approach about probs (he IS a CA, but I do jump to my own defense-altho I am trying to do better here). When I point out that this is a "normal" way to react and he does the same thing, then he is "Only trying to let me know how he feels." And it works the same vice-versa, if I approach him about a prob (no matter how nicely) I am being Negative, but he is only "telling me how he feels", when he approaches me!

Sorry but I felt compelled to jump in here!
Carry on.

jls <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Related to this negativity business:

About 6 months into MC, after DDay2, MC told W that her negativity and her complaints about me and others around her are in fact complaints about what she herself does in spades.

What she complains most about in others is exactly how she herself is.

Lol, I could have saved us 6 months worth of MC bills if W and MC would have listened to me once in a while. I figured this one out about two years into our M. But that was back when I was CA in spades myself.

Exactly as you guys write, it hasn’t made much difference until I learned how to lovingly disengage from the small everyday chaos she causes with her negativity and complaints.

In some ways it is like handling a spoiled temperamental child. Sounds like an LB, I know. But I use it for illustrative comparison only. A better way to describe it is the loving detachment taught to family members of alcoholics and addicts.

I’m still learning. I’ll never be perfect, but I’m getting better all the time.

I confronted and handled the latest hidden work related contact and the resulting rash of negativity and personal criticism quite well, so far.

WOE et al.:

I'll see you're paradigm and raise you 5 cents (for a total ante of 25 cents) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Aphelion, I read a theory here a long time ago that would seem to apply to us. And that is, that most BS's stay in the M until it is no longer painful to leave. Sort of like letting the LB run out before leaving. I truly hope that is not what's at work, but I wonder if we'd know it consciously."

I stayed M'd past the point where it's no longer painful 2 leave, but now I want it not 2 be hurtful either. If we DV, I want us 2 agree that it's the right thing for each of us 2 do.

As for emptying the LB$, if lovebucks are "romantic" in na2re, then I pretty nearly emptied mine within the first year after d-day. But the glue that really binds us, I think, is the unspoken unconditional love we still have for one another. My W's love for me was pretty buried, so she wouldn't see she's conflicted, but mine grew after d-day. It's doing pretty well right now.

She was in a good mood last night and this am. She's more fun 2 be around when she's like this.

There was one of those LBs from her that was like what Appy describes above. I didn't let it affect me 2 much. Next, I'll need 2 point out 2 her how detrimental those are 2 her own recovery.

-ol' 2long

There is something I can't quite put my finger on here ..... Are you saying that the pain of leaving a spouse who refuses to give up their affair is GREATER than the pain of staying with a perpetually adulterous spouse?

Is it like a scale situation for you men .... sorta like this:

Pain of staying <--- perpetually adulterous spouse ---> pain of leaving

Waiting to see which direction is less painful?? I really don't "get it".

Help me please

Pep:

Quantify "perpe2ally adulterous spouse"

see?

-ol' 2long

no see

Yeah, sure see! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You see, it's that word "perpe2al". Intellec2ally, I know that means "forever." But it seems like it means "all the time." And while my W's A went on for 15 years (12, if you don't count the perpe2al desire 2 stay in infrequent contact), they weren't jumping one another's bones all the time (so far, it seems 2 make sense that there were only a half dozen "times", most early on).

Counterbalanced, seemingly, with the perpe2al desire 2 not give up the friendship was the non-ignorable fact that my W is a good mom and could even be a decent spouse at times.

Okay, so maybe I'm not making my point very well. Maybe I'm trying 2 be analytical of 2 little information - I certainly had little 2 go on but my own assumptions and feedback (positive and negative) and guesses from people here, until we started really talking last week.

...ol' 2long

For me the pain would have been (will be) be huge/great/immense no matter when I could have left (or might leave).

Not that leaving is on the horizon. But it will be a different pain depending on why and when I choose to leave.

Different color pains but all with the same saturation.

2long,

I see your 2 bits and raise you a shilling.

That should be on the notable quotes!

now the confusion is worse.... you men are confusing !

Gee maybe my understanding them is not good?

and don't feel bad Pep, I can't understand 2long most times.

We cannot understand anothers sitch until we have lived it, and that can never happen because their sitch will always be unique to them.

I very much understand that the pain of leaving could very well be more than the pain of staying, and then throw all the personal regrets and self-blame into the mix and the pain becomes that much magnified.

And then add in hope, and unconditional love.

And the state of mind one ends up with after finding out that an affair had been going on for years before DD.

I know the answers cannot be simple, especially when the marriage is wanted by both parties. It is very hard to think in black and white for the "thinkers", even if that is what would seem the best thing to do when looking in from the outside.

Relationships are the hardest thing I have ever tried to understand and there is nothing logical about love, especially the love one has for a WS.

I have never known the kind of pain I have known since my own R started and ended. And it is the hardest thing that I have ever tried to overcome, to the point where I can tell that most people who know me think I am crazy.

If it's one thing I guess we are all learning it is to be empathetic with others R's, because we just can't understand the dynamics of anothers relationship, heck we can't even understand our own.

Unless you are one of the lucky few whose spouse ended the affair on DD (or never had one to begin with). Those are the ones which have the most hope, and these ones where the spouse can ride it out until the WS comes out of their fog and still maintain a desire to keep the M.

That has been my observations in my unwanted career here on this board.

Don't smack me too hard Pep. LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am saying I don't understand what he has written !!! Not even getting to the "sitch" ... what the heck is he saying???

Must be me today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He's saying it's complicated chit, that's all.