MC has a 'boundaries' philosophy. Tonight he said he wants me to think hard about my personal boundaries. Then at the right time say to WW "Here are my boundaries, that's who I am, I plan on having a great life, do you want to share it with me given my boundaries"?

I just got the Cloud/Townsend book, and am struggling with the boundaries concept. But I'll bet many wise heads here are experienced with it.

WW's biggest complaint is that I've been controlling. E.g. have issued ultimatums, many years ago, more than once. 'if you want to be married to me you need to do x' kind of concept. She finds that really hateful. So do I, it's not a good foundation for a loving relationship. Wish I hadn't ever done that.

Anyway, isn't that the same as a Boundary? The "here's my boundary, do you want to share my life with me"? seems to have an implicit threat that if she can't respect that boundary we shouldn't be together. Here at last is the question: As a practical matter, how is that different than an ultimatum? I would welcome your comments here, educate me PLEASE?!

Another q: How do I know my boundaries anyway? Ok now that I know how painful an A is, I can safely say that's a boundary for me. But how can I see in advance everything that is a firm boundary line? Maybe I won't recognize it until it's crossed, and realize 'that didn't work for me'. How can I put the concept into operation? Is there a menu somewhere of 100 common boundaries, from which I can select the ones I recognize as my own key boundaries?

Thanks!

Selfish demands require the other person to change.

Setting boundaries require that you change.

Telling your wife that you want to live your life in a marriage with a faithful spouse is an honest communication of a boundary.

There is no requirement for her to change if you simply tell her that YOU are going to change by no longer accepting XYZ in your life. But you darn well better be prepared to follow through. Otherwise, it just makes you dishonest and manipulative.

It is threat, an ultimatum, a selfish demand, if you say to her, "Here is my boundary, now change to please me".

It sounds like you are kind of like I used to be. You may not have any boundaries, let alone know how to enforce them. The Cloud/Townsend book is excellent, but I doubt you will figure it out quickly. It takes some time and practice.

Sorry, there is no list of boundaries, as they are different for different people.

The beginning point is to realize that you are a separate person from your wife. All of her problems are not necessarily yours to fix. You don't have to tolerate whatever she chooses to dish out.

A boundary doesn't tell the other person how they should act. It tells another person what behavior you will tolerate.

Keep reading the book, and try practicing on acquaintances first. It is often difficult to start using boundaries with someone you care deeply about, if you haven't up to this point.

With boundraries one has no control over the end results.

Thanks all. Sorry to be a slow learner. I still don't quite get the PRACTICAL difference. Whether I call it a boundary or an ultimatum, the net effect is that WW has to be a certain way if she wants to be with me. Now based on the above answers I'm sure that's not right - but I'm a stupid fellow and can't really see the difference aside from semantics.

Boundary: "X is a requirement for me." (You will of course decide to accomodate X or alternatively decide to take a hike. That is of course your choice).

Ultimatum: "Either accomodate X or take a hike. You are to choose one or the other."

Really what's the difference? Looks the same to me aside from how it's phrased.

WNH-

I'm not sure I understand your hesitation over boundaries...or ultimatums, or whatever you want to call them.

We ALL set them all the time...it's a given "boundary" that if a friend suddenly hits you for no reason and begins treating you in a hateful manner that you're going to end your friendship with them...that's a boundary too.

Why SHOULDN'T you have expectations of reasonable boundaries with your wife? And why shouldn't she have them of YOU???

Would she be comfortable with you sleeping with any woman you meet? I'd guess not...and you know what...that's a boundary. It's an expected limitation on your behavior...if you cross this line, dire consequences will result.

ALL marriages require boundaries. If you don't have them, then you have no basis at all for a relationship. The TRICK to this is to have REASONABLE boundaries...and to work with each other to ensure that those boundaries are reasonable, clear, and ones that both parties can agree to.

If your wife cannot accept simple, basic boundaries of standard married behavior, then you shouldn't accept her behavior. And then YOU should take action to enforce your boundaries (your 'expectation of reasonable behavior'). And again, this applies to BOTH parties of the marriage equally.

My wife and I struggled with this a lot post d-day. We also struggled with another use of the word 'boundary'...where it means how much you share with other people that should only be shared within the bounds of the marriage.

Perhaps this makes things make a little more sense? The practical part of this is creating boundaries that are reasonable, measurable, and enforcable.

It's all in how you look at it. Having a boundary, let's see, for example, you decide you won't be around anyone wearing red. You don't make an ultimatum and tell her she can't wear red, or she needs to leave if she wears red. You simply state that you will no longer be around anyone wearing red.

She makes the choice on what she decides to do. She may decide to wear red. Then you simply remove yourself from being around her. You might go golfing for the day.

When you first start having boundaries, people will continue ignoring them until they see that you are serious. Then they usually get angry, so prepare for that. But as you use them more and more, it gets easier and easier.

What are the boundaries you are considering?

Thx for the responses. MC wants me to determine my absolute deal-killer boundaries; the ones that I have to have in order to remain married. Not that easy to figure out. E.g. I think 'no affairs' is one of them. But am I really willing to enforce it? If she were to violate that boundary (again), would I really walk away from the M? (2 kids). This is going to take a lot of hard thought.

I made a list of virtues - probably 40 of them so far - some which I can maybe transform into boundaries. Some of those are probably 'nice to haves', a few may be 'must haves'. Again I guess I am asked to determine if those must haves really merit walking away from the M.

Why am I harping on the equivalence of boundaries and ultimatums? Because my W hates ultimatums/coercions. She finds me controlling, manipulative etc. If I present boundaries, isn't she likely to see them as just another means of control, manipulation etc? (I think I would if the situation were reversed!) So I'm also confused as to whether I can use the boundaries concept successfully in this situation. Newly-stated boundaries means new controls, means more reasons for her to hate me.

Thanks for that Owl. Could you elaborate a bit, I'm just a newbie to the concept. Why can't people have a relationship without boundaries?

Boundaries are not about control. They are about what you will tolerate. You will not be telling her what to do at all.

But you have to be certain that you are going to maintain your boundaries, or they are useless.

I have been through 2 year long boundary courses through my church. It took me forever to get it. I think your counselor is expecting a lot from you too quickly. It takes tons of effort. Usually you start by using boundaries on smaller, unimportant things, and with people that you are not that attached to.

By having a boundary that you will leave if she cheats, the stakes are high, especially if you are not willing to leave.

WNH-

Think about ANY relationship you have with ANYONE else. Your kids. Your boss. Your friends. Your wife. Even a stranger you meet in the elevator.

ALL of these have standard expectations of behavior built into them. You don't tolerate your kids kicking you, or throwing things at you, do you? Why not? Because it's a BOUNDARY that you're teaching them not to cross. So you start by showing them what the limit is, and what the consequences are for crossing the line.

You wouldn't tolerate your boss telling you how to run your home at all, would you? How to raise your kids? (Hey, from now on you're not to let your kids have a snack after school!) Of course not...because your relationship with him/her is BUSINESS only. It's a BOUNDARY. If your boss crossed the line, you'd inform them that it's none of their business...if it kept up, you'd seek another job or inform THEIR boss.

We all have expectations of behavior from anyone that we interact with. The closer our relationship is with someone, the more clearly defined those boundaries become. Your expectations of someone else's wife or kids would not be the same that you have for your own...make sense?

Your wife is raising the "controlling" flag just like EVERY OTHER WS on this forum does...ALL of us BS's have been accused of being controlling. Why? Because we've taken them to task for crossing those boundaries, and they don't like that, and don't want to face the consequences of their actions. This is all standard 'WS script'.

Let me ask you this...how much of an issue did your wife raise on those boundaries BEFORE the affair started? Probably some, especially in the beginning of your relationship...that's normal for most couples. We're always re-defining our boundaries as our relationship changes over time.

But I'd bet you good money that it's REALLY an issue now...because she doesn't want to have to face the consequences of facing boundaries now. So what was acceptable before isn't now...because SHE isn't willing to follow acceptable behavior.

I went through this struggle with my wife too. Once clear of the 'fog', she became more able to see how reasonable and understandable my boundaries were. But while she was totally self-centered, she refused to let herself see that.

Try talking with your MC/IC about this...see if he agrees with what I'm saying. My thought is that he's on the same sheet I am...which is why he's asking you to clearly define those boundaries for yourself first...and then you take them to your wife.

Thanks believer. It does sound like a lot to bite into on short notice. I'll discuss with MC, and whatever he says I'll give it my best shot. Should mention that I need to demonstrate to WW right now that I'm really working on myself. She says she's doing same. We're keeping distance now, but MC's thought is that at some point we can come together and share our introspections. Each talking about himself/herself, not about the other.



The control issue has existed for several years of MC before the affair, but - you're right Owl - WW is really singing that tune since the A came out of the closet. Way back she had some reason to feel controlled/manipulated; but not recently. Just before the A started, she seemed happy with the M. Now she's rewriting marital history.

Of course she sees the exposure as the biggest manipulation / control ever. She doesn't accept that actions taken in defense of the M don't count as me being controlling; she just sees it as a recent and especially egregious example of the same old stuff.

Anyway I think that new communication re boundaries would be interpreted as more coercion. Okay many people wouldn't interpret that way, but I think WW is in withdrawal and not so reasonable right now. Just not sure boundaries will help at this point.

I'll mention that MC doesn't believe in fog. "What she feels, is her reality." Therefore there's no such thing as fog.

I want to have a friendly relationship with you .... since you don't know what a boundary is ...

I am going to move into your house.

I am never going to put any dirty dishes into the sink.

I am going to borrow your clothes and return them soiled, or not return them at all, or lose them.

I am going to walk into the bathroom to brush my teeth when you are in the shower.

I am going to take your car keys and drive myself where I want to go, return the car to the garage with an empty gas tank.

I am going to play loud music whenever it pleases me, whether or not you are asleep or have a headache, nomatter.

Well I'm not sure how I feel about all that Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why are boundaries important?

For one ... civilization DEPENDS on social boundaries or else there is anarchy

Gotta step out a few minutes. Maybe while I'm out I'll fill up my car and not pay for it.

So what happens when you find out that the boundary you set, may not be your boundary?

My example was that I was unwilling to stay in the marriage if my WW didn't find another job/position within the school district. My wife made a half hearted effort of looking, but here I am with her still working with the OM.

My wife keeps saying that I am being controlling by setting boundaries.

Hope you don't mind my adding onto your post.

YOU have boundaries all over the place .... take a look at yourself and NOTICE how you make somethings "OK" to do and others not "OK" to do.

This is how you keep chaos away from your life !!!

And are there different levels of boundaries?
I. gotta have to be in the M, vs
II. gotta have to spend the day with W, vs.
III gotta have to keep from walking away a few minutes.. etc?

Moving IMPORTANT boundaries out of the way in order to have a relationship with someone is fatal to respect.