You should make sure he has your new contact info.



You may very well have caught him when he could not talk freely. Have you thought about seeing him at work again? I certainly would if you come up with any new evidence. If they indeed are praying for you and want your M saved, it would be nice if OW would confirm for you the nature of her relationship to your H. That is maybe asking too much though, from a liar who probably thinks she is in love with your H.


Now how can he be so sure? The best I can answer, even now, is NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Is he with her 24/7????? I would never say No, not at all. How the heck can I know anything with 100% certainty? How can he?


Oh, I think he would be petrified if you really talked to OW. Especially if the A really has ended. He might act like he wouldn't care, but that's just a ploy to deter you from doing it.


You can't make him talk if he won't tell the truth... just make choices that shape his behavior...


His ways our not our ways; we just don't always see what God is doing at the time. But we just have to have faith and trust Him... and I know you do.


Well?? Did she find out anything? You have a great BF. (Be careful, be aware that can be Best Friend as I know you mean, or Boyfriend as I know you don't mean!)

MSA

well MSA..i have some proof that the A is ongoing. although..i don't know what to do with what i have.

my best friend hung out and waited but OW never left work. my H was in the parking lot across the road just sitting. I know he was waiting on her. so she decided to drive across and make sure it was him. Yep, sure was. he was sitting right by the road and saw her...must've spooked him and when she turned around they ended up passing one another. she went to pick up her daughter and about 30 mins. later...came back but didn't see him.

OW was still at work. she went in and shopped and then i stopped by..(after work..i just wanted to look at what i was replaced by and what was more important than Jay).

she saw me (i had jay..she knew me because of him i am sure of) and walked off. she would not make any eye contact with me, kept looking down, she was talking on her cell and i am sure it was my H.

so after i left i called my friend. she suggested i call OWH....so i did. Mistake. he very politely asked me not to contact him again. said they were not in contact ( like you...how can he be sure...yes they are or my H is stalking her) anyway...he said he appreciated me telling him before but he wasn't comfortable talking about it with me and would rather me not contact him. I said i was sorry that i was just trying to fix my marriage. He said he wished he could change my situation but that they were fine. I said well okay..glad for you but i did tell him about my H being over across the parking lot sitting. He didn't act like it even phased him.

he trusts his wife obviously. she must have him snowed. but i did make her very uncomfortable. if she thinks she loves my H and my H loves her, why worry about the spouses? why would she keep lying to her H. she is making him believe it was nothing and that their M is under the fix. so what is that all about?

I am so miserable today.

H came down, of course, last night. I didn't mention my friend seeing him, he didn't either. I didn't say anything. he asked me what was wrong.

'WHAT THE HE**' What does this fool think is wrong?

i told him...you know it's funny. Your messed up mind doesn't make you steal, rob a bank, murder, doesn't keep you from working....only makes you cheat on me.

he gets up ...too heated you know...to leave and i followed him out and said...you cannot have your wife and son to visit after you come home from doing your w*ore. (keeps walking) i said...get the papers...i am done....

i said...you chose it remember. you chose (and i always say her name for the affect) over us remember that.

he just kept walking.

so now what? i've got a H who is still in the full blown A. OWH who choses to stick his head in the sand. No help. the exposure didn't help. it just made them work a bit harder. maybe see a bit less.

he must really believe he loves her. i can't change that. doesn't it hurt him that he sacrificed his family for her...but she won't? doesn't that throw up a flag? or does he even care.

He can't live without me, but he doesn't realize it. He thinks he can. thinks he isn't "in love" with me...but knows he still loves me.

do you have any suggestions because i really feel like i have fought the fight and lost and now i am facing...the big D, for sure. why...not because he is filing but because i cannot tolerate his emotional and mental abuse to me and my precious son. divorce...because i chose to not be used and abused, and because there is hope that God will send someone to me and Jay who will truely love and care for us the way we deserve.

sighs....i am a good person for trying right? will he ever see the love i have had...will he see how hard i fought for our M? will it ever matter to him?

Jaysmom

Jaysmom, some day when this is all said & done, he will be very very sorry for abandoning you & Jay for OW.

Why does he do this? I still think he thinks he can cake-eat.

So he leaves when things get heated and you say you're done.

Does he call you later then and want to "talk about it"?

Have you ever seen an attorney?

Are you going to follow thru on your threat that you are done with him, or will he see it as a bluff?

I don't want you divorced, but you may need to start thinking of the particulars if you were to file - who will your attorney be, will you stay in the house, how much child support will he be required to pay, are you entitled to spousal support/alimony, and so on. How long does a D w/ children take in NC?

Although many hear would disagree, filing may be necessary, and will most likely put you back in the driver's seat. You may also end up divorced. You need to mean it if you do it.

Of course you're a good person for trying; he knows the love you have for him - I think he's taking advantage of it now though.

What do YOU want to do?

MSA

i needed to hear that. that he will be very sorry. I think that inside me...i know it, but i am in the middle of this mess and blindsided. He will be sorry. to a certain degree i think he already is, but then...a new day starts and he does the same thing he is doing.

Last night he came down again. No he doesn't call me to "feel me out" after the heated conversations....he doesn't know i have a new cell, and we have no home phone. He ALWAYS called before. called in the morning on my way to work. if we got in a heated discussion or argument...called later to apologize. this of course all before i exposed to OWH.

since then he has not mentioned anything. Never apologized for anything. Acts basically like a freak to me. Just wants to pretend nothing happened or IS happening. comes and goes...talks to me like we are the best of friends...on friendly terms. Not H and W things.

before i exposed, around Christmas, he had started getting flirty with me and as you know...was very much so on Christmas Eve. but this could've been because i had started dangling things i knew in his face...and at that point he knew i was on to who OW was without a doubt. maybe it was his way of trying to keep me from telling OWH.

which backfired on me anyway. Poor fool. they carry on and he thinks she is faithful. she cried and pleaded and he said..it's okay...and she still has her mansion on the hill, her H with all the $, kids set for life, and my H on the side.

while Jay and i suffer. suffer. my H is out buying new clothes, toys, gifts for her etc...while Jay and i struggle to buy food. He pays the house, electricity, and cable. thats it. I pay Jays preschool, my car, groceries...cell...(his cell, that everyone has the # to..well i did until i had them recently cut off)( he has given no one, even his own mom, the "cell he doesn't have" it is strictly for OW only...even calls his mom from a pay phone..just so she can't get #...sick isn't it?)

Last night he came in...i was changing in the bedroom...he walks right back first thing without stopping...i think he had seen me in the window, but by the time he got back there i was clothed..."whats the matter?" i am like ...nothing. thinking you are such a POS!

i kept to myself...he senses the change. i can hardly be around him. before he left...i just casually mentioned..oh i have made some calls and got an estimate on child support for Jay...i gave him the $$$$ and he didn't say anything...as usual getting too much for him...and i said...are you planning on selling our home or what?

Now get this MSA... i then said...quite frankly i don't know how you will make that with everything else you have to pay...what are you planning on doing? selling our home...what? this will kill you...it did me..

"i dunno"..."i haven't thought about it"....OMG!!!!!!

i said..you haven't? well you have had nearly 5 months to think about it ...looks like you would have some kind of an idea...don't cha think? i then told him...look (and i think you'll be proud of me)

i love you and want this marriage. i have never wanted it to end...look at our son...i want the best for him, he is my life. i said...but i refuse to stay in a marriage with you while you continue in this affair...not gonna do it anymore. it's not what i want...because i want to fix this, but i will not tolerate you doing this to us any longer.

as you may guess...he is going out the door and comments only to when i say ongoing A...i said to him yes...you and i both KNOW it is the truth...don't EVEN try to argue or say anything.

i said...everyone is giving up on you..."i don't care",...well the one you should care about is climbing up your back right now...he is giving up...you need to think about that...everything you and i do..is a reflection on him and it is irreversible. by that point...he was out the door.

i don't know if it does any good or not. my prayers getting weak, my faith weak...but God is an awesome God and he knows what is best for us...i can't see it now but God wants the best for us and i know He is working and trying to bring my H to HIM. my H seems to have drifted further from God everyday.

that scares me.

i don't know much about the laws on divorce..never thought i would need to, but i have to do something. I am thinking more on the lines of just moving back home (my family is the next county and my work, preschool is there also) instead of filing. one of my best f's thinks moving best leave out the papers...maybe being out of his sight would do the trick...let him see what life is going to be like, because if we do D...i will not be living in our home..we will have to sell. then the other best f...says to do the papers...

i did print legal seperation papers 1 week after he left (off computer) and gave them to him then...i shouldn't have i guess...but i did..trying to show him or get him to see..but he threw them back at me and told me not to throw them in his face again or he would sign them. i didn't tell him where they came from..he thought i got them from an attorney...maybe he knows now...but i told him they were sort of a rough draft. back then he was SOOOO angry he didn't really care...although...he never would mention or move forward about getting them. a couple of times in arguments in the beginning (like the 1st month or so) he would say get the papers out lets sign them and get this over with...but then..he would come back later and say...if you do this or that again I WILL sign them...he knew i didn't want that, and he did it to threaten me.

i didn't know what to do..so i just let it go...we neither have mentioned THOSE papers again. instead later i told him i wouldn't get them..he would have to ...i wasn't paying for what i never wanted. maybe this has hurt me in the long run and why this has kept on for so long...he knows i was bluffing...

i am right there at home, still. msa i don't want to divorce...i am a product. i love jay more than life i would rather die than put him thru that he**. my H knows that. he also knows that what he is doing is wrong and he is wrestling with it. his smoking gotten alot worse, he lost 6 more lbs. since last month. He really is struggling. but it is like he just does not love me the same.

he must feel he loves her. He must think that hiding from her H and killing me and Jay are more important than doing what is right. i dunno? he wants my company. wants my approval. wants my opinion on things. wants me to be in a good mood, talk, not be upset, but doesn't want the touchy feely of me as a wife. wants that from OW. she isn't leaving her H. and i think he just doesn't think about anything but himself and what he will do today...not much else. and the fact she hasn't left her H...probably is what is keeping him doing this. he isn't tied down to her, oh...i dunno?????

i am so sorry this is so long. i am the venting queen. see my sitch about moving or doing papers. i feel God moving me more than the legal aspect. then H would not know my when and wheres. i am afraid papers will just be as another bluff to him, if i am not there where he can see me...then it will be more realistic...staying and getting papers just means ...well we have papers. moving would mean...WE are gone. last weekend MIL said he paced the floor until we came home. was upset we didn't call. was at our home 5 mins after we got there.

i am scared of moving and my child doesn't even want to speak of it. UGHHH.
his b-day is next month...we have a big party in the works...and H right there in the middle of it. my H has very little family and i have HUGE family...and my family ALL come for it...JAY is the light of our lives...he is the star...and well very spoiled by all!!! anyway my point is ...he knows they will be there and doesn't seem too uncomfortable just as of yet.

one other thing...and i will shut up...when H left ...he took only what he needed. EVERYTHING he owns still at home. all his clothes, closet full , everything...his bathroom...still has everything...set just as it was. he has never ever planned on leaving...never. i think he kept the Dr. visit for the ending of the fling...he did before. I believe he planned on using his mental state to come home...that is what he was doing all along here recently...by trying to ease back in...even his own mom said it too. but he has had a set back...he got caught again and i am not buying his deal....

any suggestions on bringing him to his knees soon?

again sorry i wrote you a book today...as you can see...work not as important to me today HA! well...there are no patients to see.

Happy Friday to you!!!! hope i didn't leave you with a headache!!! jaysmom

Do not ever apologize for writing me a book. ALL I could talk about during my FWH's A was the A, 24/7 to anyone who would listen. It was so CONFUSING!

So, everything he owns is still in the home, eh?

I'll tell you what. I don't like him walking in whenever he pleases. You may not legally be able to change the locks, but you can certainly add deadbolts for your own protection. These can be locked when you are IN the home. Then you must answer the door, no surprises. That's what I did, and it worked well, and I was glad. After I filed for D, WH came over in a rage/panic/whatever to talk to our DD's - I was still in bed when they came and got me and said, "Dad's at the door, and we can't figure out the new deadbolt." THANK GOD!!! He was in such a state. Ill as you say. Just ill. He was going to tell the girls all kinds of things they didn't need to hear, because he had himself in such a fit over me filing... fortunately I could pull him aside and talk SOME sense in to him, that our kids didn't need to know about OW, OC, etc... whew.

So idea #1, deadbolts.

Idea #2, start making small changes. I never emptied out WH's closet and stuff, but I did remove his knickknacks from the bedroom (my organizing specialist said it was probably creating bad vibes to be sleeping around all his stuff when he was being so mean to me). I decided she was right, boxed it all up neatly and put it in the storeroom. I also debated getting a goldfish, a cat, and moving the coffeetable back upstairs which he did not want to do. Just making the house more MINE, moving on in little ways. I think you should begin to pack up some of his things, things Jay won't notice (garage? Basement? Your bedroom?) so you don't upset Jay. Things your WH WILL notice, so you upset him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Worry him, that is. Give him little reality checks.

Thoughts?

Happy weekend!
MSA

By the way, how many hours drive are you from Gallatin/Nashville, TN?

It's Monday again.

Hope your weekend was well. Nashville...hmm i think about 4 hours drive. We are very close to Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge area...about 1 1/2 hour drive, we shop there alot.

You and my best friends have the same exact thoughts. Everyone...change the locks. we already have deadbolts and i don't know if i could do it, but i am sure my dad would. He usually knocks before coming in (depends on the day/his mood etc....) i usually have the doors locked and i open them or Jay does one.

Maybe i am the problem. My friend said...stop opening the door and letting him come down whenever he feels like it. Put your foot down and tell him...but Jacob always wants to see him and i feel bad. so i just let him come on in and stay. It's my fault isn't it. If i would get some backbone and tell him...no not just tell him...but show him.

my friend said...you say things to him all the time...but you don't put anything behind them.. you can tell him you are thru and you are not putting up with it ...but she said...your still there. He knows you are bluffing. she is right.

i know he can sense the change in me though. he showed up Friday with a gift card to the mall for me..."go buy you some shoes..." (of course he knows shoes are the other love of my life)...

but i just went off the deep end. i threw it back at him...and blessed him out. (yes we in the south bless people out..ha!)

but hey...i know he is thinking about me anyway. my friend said see...he is slowly trying to buy you back..ease his way back home.

i dunno..msa...he is still seeing her i think, but really...did i want it to end because i ended it...or because my H realized that he didn't love her and didn't want to lose me. I want him to end it. i always have.

but i know i am going to have to stop this cake eating...that phrase has been uttered to me a 1000 times this weekend by everyone!!!!

i have been meaning to ask you this...what ever happened to the OW? did her H take her back? did your H give you any signs that he was ending it...or that you thought it might be coming to an end when he did end it?

my MIL told me this weekend that she saw signs in my H that she thought that it was coming to an end...i don't know why she thought that. she said that before i exposed she saw signs in him that it was getting too much for him and she said i think that he isn't able to keep it up much longer. she said that his smoking and the fact that he wants to see us daily and that he spends time with us everyday and it gets lengthier everyday was encouraging to her. i don't know????

i know you have said that your H and mine seem similar. with your H coming around and calling daily...did he just talk to you like you were still best friends? Did he seem to be struggling with himself while he was gone? like with my H's weight loss and smoking...etc...was there visible signs to everyone??? just curious!!

Jay's sick gotta go get him from school...

happy monday!!! jaysmom

Hi there Jaysmom, I confess that I have been reading your posts now for quite a while; this is the most inspiring thread that I have read on this forum! I SOOO mean this as a compliment, please take it this way, this is my FIRST post! I felt compelled to write something...

First off, I want to say that you ARE doing the right things simply by choosing MARRIAGE! Your discipline through all of this blows my mind. Never doubt that what you are trying to achieve is the noble route...

Consider your perfect world, would this world include your family all together? I'm guessing so, and I hope this statement doesn't depress you since it seems that you are gathering more and more doubt as this is wearing you down. All I am trying to say is that you are battling for what is absolutely RIGHT! NO ONE would disagree! I'll bet even your H would agree if he was able to be open and honest with himself...unfortunately, right now it seems that if he was honest with himself he would have to also admit to all the ways he has hurt those close to him, and face up to his behavior.

Nobody wants to admit that they've been hurtful, esp to this extent...add on the FOG...the lies...the addiction to OW...the depression...the guilt; it makes for so many layers to push through to even admit to oneself that they have been wrong. I'm sure it has been said, but the FEELINGS for OW can feel so RIGHT...it must be very hard for him to see how this could be WRONG...but i assure you that it is! I can't imagine how many ways he has had to justify this to himself in order to feel like he hasn't been doing anything wrong, he must self-talk himself constantly.

I don't mean to put the focus on myself right now, but I have a situation with some similarities, so I can relate to some of this, and following your sitch has been very inspiring, I hope you don't mind me saying. My wife is terribly depressed, and has developed an emotional affair with my best friend. She WON'T take meds. We had marriage problems, and I admit that I had contributed to the troubles. The problem is that she does NOT see this as a emotional affair (even though there has been sexual areas to it, and it has taken the intimacy away from us...). What I am noticing is that when someone is depressed, it seems to magnify and justify the addiction to the OP immensely. The OP is their "feel good" zone, and they have disassociated any "feeling good" while involved with their family at home. After all, this is where the trouble started..why go back to the "cause" of the trouble? (At least this is what they think) It seems to make for "fog on top of fog" and constructive conversation is SO HARD! Also they are so very likely NOT to admit that what they are doing is destructive, and in my case, it is hard for her to admit that she is doing it AT ALL! (they are "just friends" you see, even though they decided that maybe if they had sex, it just might put the fire back into our marriage! FOG x FOG, you see? At least my BF told me before it happened...)

So I'm saying that I can relate, there is NO logic to their reasoning, no wonder you feel confused and bewildered. I'm guessing that until your H disassociates from OW AND goes through the withdrawal stage, he isn't going to make much sense. But yet he keeps coming around, doing some nice things for you, and keeps you off balance. I'm amazed at how well you have handled all of this. Try to remember that his actions scream to me that he doesn't want to lose you and his son. What sucks is that he's also treating you unfairly at the same time. How do you do Plan A (being the "ideal" mate) without letting him cross your boundaries? I'm learning that it is a VERY fine line! It's a very hard thing to do...and it's impossible to do it perfectly...

I'm keeping my hopes up for you and praying specifically for clarity for your husband and happiness for your family!

Take care.

That's great, if I get down to Nashville this summer I'll let you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



What ever happend to the OW... well, H quit his job & went into No Contact with a letter. We don't know if her H took her back; last I heard no, but that can always change. Maybe it was the final straw her getting pregnant. Did he give me signs he was ending it? Yes, I was reading his thread on MB lurking and new when he went into NC, though H & I were barely speaking after I filed for divorce. He ended it shortly after I filed. But he had friends assisting him in the decision that were more clear-headed than he was.


Yes, he still wanted to talk to me. After I filed he was very angry at first. But mostly he wanted to confide in me, as long as I was doing what he wanted he was very friendly. When I would set a boundary, then he would become angry. He smoked constantly, but then again... so did I! It was a stressful time!


I hope Jay gets to feeling better, my DD6 is sick also...

Welcome CJ ShookUp!

MSA

well...well...it sounds as though i have an audience...hmmm..

and to think...today started off just terrible. i came into work and decided before i do any work i think i'll check up on what my good friend MSA had to say and low and behold...i have a new friend....

just when i was about to announce to everyone and MSA "put a fork in me i am thru!" CJ Shookup...shows up and puts a big ol' smile on my face....

really...INSPIRING??? moi???? you think?

should i contact Lifetime....entertainment...???

as you know...i am from the south...big hair capital of the world...Inspiring...my head cannot get any bigger!

oh me, oh my....at least i still have humor in me...at least he cannot kill that part of me.

well guys...today just started off just awful. Tuesday morning...as almost every other tuesday for the past 4++ months...my H leaves at 4:50 am to go off to see her. so i know it is still going on. I spoke to MIL this am and she said..."wonder what his excuse will be today"

every tuesday since he left he comes up with something...does he not give me any credit. why lie???

I just don't get it. He came in this am, after he got in from you know whattin', (jay was staying with him, and i didn't want to get him out since he has been sick), he didn't say much. He knew i saw him leave this am. He even turned his headlights off in hopes i wouldn't. like i am the idiot.

i don't understand. why did exposing backfire for me? it seems as though...since i exposed that they are going full steam ahead...my MIL said to me...it was almost as if it were coming to an end until i did that (she wasn't being ugly...i had actually stated it myself and she agreed, but wasn't saying anything bad on my part). its true.

why? why is OWH such a fool? why hasn't God put that gut wrenching feeling inside of him to show him...? why doesn't she EVER seem to slip up? and why just plain old why...if they neither want to lose their spouses do they continue...oh i know...addiction...but addictions can cause you to lose everything...and in this case...

ranting aren't i? MSA, when your H came back...how was he? i mean...he was so angry with you for filing...how did that bring him back...well i mean...i know how but ...HOW did he come back...when you guys weren't actually talking much.

we talk too much. he isn't angry at all.

last night he came down for "family night" as usual. he came in the bedroom and was sitting on the edge of the bed for a min. talking to me and looking over a book or something. I said....do you mind i need to change. "no..go ahead" ...no...John...do YOU mind...I need to change.. "no i don't mind at all...go ahead"

Hmmm...NO do you MIND...i want to change and i don't want to in front of you..."oh" and he gets up ...

kinda ill (is that phrase only used here...?)..kinda p*ssy...i should say. No cake today Mr.

he hung out his usual...played nintendo, talked ...whatever. i did bring up selling again and he gave me the same speech..."i dunno, i haven't thought about it"

Maybe i should just stop asking? but i am not at all a patient person. this is just killing me. this has made me Job's sister i think.

i am someone who wants the fix 10 mins ago. so at least i can say that when this is all said and done...God has made me the most patient person, i will have done everything i could do possible to save it and know God will say "well done"

I don't know guys what to do. i am starting to just wear down. in every area of my self. Mentally, emotionally, spiritally, being a mother. He is not at all responsible for our son. sure he comes down...when HE wants. he doesn't help me at all. becoming resenting.

This morning...before i left for work i said to him.

"john, if i were standing here (he is lying on our couch watching TV) with a bottle of alcohol in front of Jake...what would you do? No response..

i asked again..."move i can't see the TV"

i turn the TV off and asked again...and added that i was stone faced drunk..."what would you do?"

"tell you to quit" ....My point exactly dear. your convictions on alcohol...not as strong as mine apparently on divorce...i have asked you very nicely for 4 months to stop and you continue...

your son prayed in the check out line at Target for everyone behind us to hear "Jesus, please fix my daddy's heart and bring him home soon."

mean anything to you? No...mean anything to her? NO...NO..she has her kids...they shield them from the truth but she and you have had no problems putting my precious 3 year old thru He**. doesn't bother either of you at all...

and out the door i went.

does this EVER get to him? do i get anywhere with what i say? will it ever sink in? will he ever stop???

sometimes i think i should just keep doing what i am doing...just let him come down and not say much...that i am expecting too much out of him too soon. that i have said before...i want it to end...but by the right reasons. because...HE chose it to end. but the pain of it continuing in front of me day in and day out...is making me crazy. the fact he continues to deny and lie...make me think he thinks i am just a fool...am i?

CJ...didn't mean to hog it all on me...i hope we can learn more. it sounds like you and i and MSA have alot in common. try to get her on ADs. it has helped, especially were Jay is concerned...and since he has started the guilt is more evident...try...pray...PRAY!!!

it's nice to know you think i am Inspiring...perked me up today...thanks.

i am making him watch Jay this evening too. told him i had plans. i am back in size 6 and looking dang good if i do say so...so let him sweat my where abouts. He always 50 ?'s me about where, when, why... won't tell him...but i'll tell you...
going to the mall...to spend his money.

gotta go take my big ol'head back to work....Jaysmom

Jaysmom, you are so funny, your post mad me laugh tonight about spending his $ etc...

Poor Jay, that made me tear up. I thought I could read it to H w/o choking up - wrong!

By the time my H came home he was contrite. The first time he came home in a whirlwind, the first month or 6 weeks was like some kind of honeymoon, really wonderful. The second time he came home, I was much more cautious; he lived with his sister for about 2 1/2 months while we did counseling and spent time together when I was home... I didn't want to put the kids thru him coming home if he wasn't going to stay. He PROMISED them the 1st time that he would NEVER leave again... ugh.

We don't use the phrase "ill" - we say crazy. But I like it, now that I get it...

I don't know WHY exposure backfired on you. I don't know WHY OWH believes OW. Should you collect & send some sort of proof to him that it is on-going? I don't know. So, you saw her at the store? Are you tempted to say anything to her? Not that that helps, from what I've heard...

It's maybe premature to say that exposure backfired. It's only been a month or so. Give it time for things to start to add up for OWH. Things in their "recovery" won't be going well unless she's quite an actress. It's hard to hide the fog. Pray for OWH that he would see the truth and deal with it.

Something has to happen to get your WH off the fence, that is becoming increasingly clear to me. What are your options for living elsewhere to do Plan B?

All these things make me think he will never get off the fence.

I like that you don't tell him where you're going. Let him wonder.

What to do to get him off the fence... what to do... what does your best friend say?? Move?

Something has GOT to change. Pray about what God wants you to do to get him off the fence, specifically.

MSA

Okay, okay, now you that you know that you have a freaking snoopy sociopath reading you posts, you must take the compliment REALLY well..hahaha!

So sorry, didn't mean to intrude, just wanted to give you a boost, seemed like you could use it right about now! Just inspired by your resilience and your actions is all...I reread my post and I hope it didn't sound like a shameless plug of my situation...

I'm probably not experienced enough to give advice, heck if I had known what I was doing with marriage, I might not be writing this right now, heh. But I do see some similarities, and I identify with it, but the genders are swapped.

Maybe your H and my W would like to get together for a cake eating contest...wait a minute, I could see how THAT could go horribly wrong...haha (I'm relying on your humour here!)

No laughing matter, I know, been doing plan A since October. Thanx for the warm remarks.

Hello MSA! Glad to be here, I've learned tons from this site and people like you!

God bless you both, I'm rooting for what's right...Not meaning to project any negativity with my jokes, just hoping for a laugh!

Gotta go back to researching the internet to see if clandestine brain transplants are available for WS's... wish me luck! (No bitterness HERE!!)

Hope you don't mind if I check in here and there.

Respectfully..CJ.

Wednesday. Hey guys.

well...i've been thinking on how to get him off the fence ...and thinking i might just kick him off of it myself. Ughhh. i am little but i can hold my own.

am i in the anger stage? because i find myself daydreaming of ways to bring pain to him. okay no one freak out....i am only a woman scorned....although...i am from the backwoods of N.C. HA!

CJ...why apologize..you didn't intrude...obviously i need all the help i can get...i am going crazy...remember...you should hang with us...and bond. We all have the same issues. the more the merrier!

MSA...she is just the best. My best friend calls her PROFOUND! she can help us both. and i so appreciate her always checking in on me. thanks friend.

I need a vacation. Its dreary here. cold...although i am sure much colder with you MSA. it like flurried here and there is no school. seriously. there is nothing outside...but the threat scares people. i need sunshine.

i am starting to get very bitter. am i in the norm? the thoughts of a man that will really love me and care for me. He is out there right? someone to be faithful...as i have been. Ughh.

okay...my mother wants me to move on. she says i am crazy. (this is coming from a divorcee, who cheated herself, and lives with consuming guilt...25 years later)she is giving me the..you will never trust, love, anything him the same again. (of course then she has to add...your father did the same...ain't she the best! don't get me wrong...i love her...i have to...God commanded me to...but...please) i just want her to leave me alone, instead she is trying to hook me up with someone. God blessed me with one crazy family huh? love em'!

Last night...i came in and he came as usual. this time...getting more comfortable. Lying on the couch...watching TV. He just talks and talks about work and things. then when he gets ready to leave there is always a strain...like awkwardness...i dunno. he leaves and tells Jay..see you tomorrow son.

guys i just don't know. I asked Jay this morning..."what do you think Jesus wants us to do" he said...Jesus don't want us to do nothin'??? alot of thought with that huh?

i asked my best friend...see i have 2... best friend #1 says...move. best friend #2: file. #1: don't do anything legal. He obviously isn't wanting a divorce...if you do papers and stay...nothing will change, except you will be legally seperated and he will be visiting you everyday. find somewhere to move. if he can't see you everyday...i believe that will break him. He will then have to realize...hey, this is what life will be like when we divorce. i can't see Jay or wife everyday...wait..i don't have a wife...kinda thing...she pushes move.
#2: (this is H's friends wife, married in the same family, the one who goes and does everything with me, she is also VERY strong willed) GET PAPERS! get legal...show him your not bluffing and then once your legally seperated..start dating and let him watch you leave and give him a taste.

i don't want to do either. i think if i file he will get mad. If i move he will get mad/sad.

i'll just keep on praying. i will wait on God. He has been ever so present in all of this...showing and guiding me. i just have to stop picking it back up after laying it down to Him.

MSA...if you have any thoughts on knocking him off the fence...please...send it on down.

CJ...don't be a stranger...tell me more about your sitch...maybe i can help...(that sounds kinda crazy...me help..hey..but i am Inspiring wink...wink)

you know it just hit me...(sorry i am slow...) your best friend??? really? how weird is that. You know...when H and i first married...my H had a very good friend (not my friends H...) (OMG...how backwoodsy that sounds...really i am not...HA) anyway...H friend. when we first M, his really good friend flirted with me alot. ALOT. this was a nice looking guy too. He was a ladies man. I think he was always jealous of my H because he got married first...kinda thing. but i played into it some. i knew better and it went no where, and my poor H never had a clue. but it could've if i had wanted it to. He just wanted something he couldn't have. since...they don't speak and haven't in years.

do you still see your friend? whats going on with your w? are you still living together?

and just for the record MSA...enjoying my new shoes! Hmmm.....what can i get next???

oh and CJ- my H only goes for the old and scanky ones...i doubt your wife fits his mold. HA!

gotta work! jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom & CJ too!

I wish I did have thought how to knock him off the fence; I know it will come to you at the right time. Your SON is the one I think is profound!

So, what are the shoes like? I've been doing a bit too much shopping lately, the holidays turned the shopping-bug on, and now I have to turn it off!!

Watching silly "Skating with Celebrities" I realized who the OW in our sitch has reminded me of. All this time I knew there was someone well known that she just seemed JUST like. Tonight, the lightbulb went off. Tonya Harding.

Hope that's your laugh for the day, I swear it's the solid gold truth.

MSA

That is too funny. You know my friend and i were talking the day i went to view OW...and she had seen her several times before and never could find the right ways to describe her. all she could say was "the first time i saw her there must've been smoke coming out of my head.... all i could focus on were those black circles under her eyes and the fact she looked as old as his mother"

my first reaction...OMG...this cannot be her...she has to be at least 50ish. Nope...its her. My friend called her "haggard looking" "ask john if he has been using her eyes as coasters for his drinks..." she said. (she also said she was gonna ask him if he met her at bingo night or something...)

so anyway...we both stood in confusion at the sight of her and in trying to describe we just couldn't find the right way...she isn't UN attractive...just not what you would say "oh...she is attractive" no...

wouldn't say pretty...not even cute. Not ugly. Just blah. possibly a 5 on a 1-10. I feel mean saying it but it's true. then it hit us. who she kinda looks like. Have you ever seen A League of their own. (Madonna, Tom Hanks..etc.) she looks like a cross between the woman who played Marla...and Laverne from Laverne and Shirley. Yep.

No wonder he comes to visit me everyday. He misses my BEAUTY!!! hahaha!!!

we had our usual family time last night. He has gotten sick, Jay must have passed it down. He was kinda pouty. I was very nice to him. we actually had good conversation last night. I talked to him about speaking to the guy he works with (a while back you know) and he talked alot about that. wasn't angry. just acted fine about it. I told him...i told (the guy) who OW was ...i didn't know if he told you...and YES...MSA i got the "what girl" again.

this time though...he wasn't being the usual...he was being more funny about it. Poor thing. He just wants it to go away doesn't he? kinda getting that feeling from him. He just wishes it would go away but he doesn't know how. doesn't know how to stop it, fix it...or anything.

i keep on praying. God is working. Just not at the warp speed i would like...and you know He just may not get through to my H, but i pray he will.

I am getting rather lonely though, i have been tough. Fought like heck, but i am getting lonely for affection. I need to feel loved and i am getting really weak. don't know how much longer i can keep it up with nothing...NOTHING in return.

one other thing quickly about my profound son. Last night he was drawing in the floor. He made a picture of me, his daddy, grandmom, great-gm, and himself. H standing there said ...that is really good son. Jay said..."i drawed (yes drawed) that dripping down my face" i said what honey (i knew in my heart what was coming) he said..."me cryin'" john is walking away at this point..(he knew too) i said why are you crying.. "i am sad...i am crying for my daddy"

i lie to you not. God is definitely working. Using my baby as a tool. God help my H if it doesn't get to him. He left on that note.

On a lighter one. I saw a few mins of the skating show..but Lost was on...you just cannot miss Lost. Even Jay said...Mom...your show is on.

did she look like Tonya Harding? or just act like her...eww..either way...

Jaysmom

He may not come when you want him, but He's always right on time... (from a spiritual) - I love that. Have a version of Mahalia Jackson singing it...


It is hard; just keep holding out...


I kid you not that a huge motivation for me in the beginning was a drawing from my 5 year old of me & H, her & sis. All holding hands before the A started. How a family's supposed to be and feel to a kid. It broke my heart seeing that ripped out from under my kids, and I wouldn't say I'm over it still. Killed me. Even though we're in recovery and I'm so grateful, I'm so sorry they even know that their family not sticking together is a possibility. I will pray that Jay is comforted, and that things SPEED UP progress-wise for HIS sake. I prayed for that, had friends pray for that, that the whole thing would be over fast for my DD's sakes. It felt like an eternity, but it could have gone on a lot longer, I know.


We LOVE Lost, TiVo one, watch the other...


Oh yes, definitely from what I remember of Tonya Harding - trashy, skinny, blonde, with the personality of a, oh, I don't know, what would you say - rat? Morals of a snake? JUST like her in my memory. And the kind of person who would break the competition's kneecaps, nay, have them broken to win at any cost - however unfairly. Ick. Eww.

Have a great Friday, happy weekend!!
MSA

finally the weekend.

I lost it last night. totally lost it. It's really crazy, i picked my sweater and that was all it took.

My dad and step-mother took jay and i out for dinner. My dad is quite the over-protect...and Jay is just his life. We have been rather busy lately and he hasn't seen us in a week or so. My dad was just really worried about Jay. He can tell a HUGE difference in his actions. so as you can imagine...the dinner conversations were all about our sitch.

when i got home...yeah..yeah...here he comes. anyway, i picked my sweater that just sent me over the edge. I started thinking about how he just spends on what-ever without so much as blinking an eye to our debt, his son, our needs.

i was ranting a bit, he was sick and cranky, and that was it. i was screaming...yep...screaming. and crying. i threw the game controller across the room...he wouldn't even look up at me. I kept on. I screamed..."you do the right thing one way or another... end this with her NOW... and get your butt back home..." then i said...more calmly... if you are going to continue cheating on me and Jay...then do the right thing by letting us go...so we can find a man who will be faithful and love both of us like we deserve...."

I was so upset and angry and hurt and oh...just every emotion. he says..."what is wrong with you?"
I said..."OMG....you cannot be for real! you can't honestly think that i can just continue sitting down here watching you come and go from being with OW"

things just got pretty nasty. He had the nerve to say to me...stop yelling and acting like this in front of Jay, i NEVER do that in front of him...i said...No you just leave and abandon us and cheat on us....that is much better than me yelling.

Ughhhhhh!!!!!!!!! He left...of course...mad, but then again...so was i.

I still am. thats why i am at my dad's. i just cannot stand the thoughts of him coming down to pretend everything is fine. Like i have no feelings. like i can just handle him doing what he is doing...one more day. I don't even want to look at him again.

I am just bummed out. MSA...my heart just died. I don't know what happened to me. I guess i finally let go of the rope. whats the point in trying anymore?

i gave this man everything. no, i wasn't perfect. I never claimed to be. I faulted in this M. I admitted them. He just resents me for some reason...and i keep going back to the obsession with SF right before he lost the wieght and left. He began to resent me then...i can pinpoint that. but NOTHING gave him right to this. I was depressed and on medication at the time he became obsessive....i didn't feel like it...and he never made me feel like it...it was only about HIM...what i could do for him..."help HIM out" He could've cared less if I wanted to.

I am officially crazy now. Not going...but gone.

what to do...what to do? i don't know...i simply do not know. I am a firm believer in M. I know that i love him, but i don't want to see him or be around him. i don't want to D, but i am a very good, christian, woman with the most incredible 3 year old son anyone would be proud of ....and i deserve to be loved and not hurt over and over again. but again i do not want to divorce. so what do i do?

well...well...Jake is begging for me to get off of here so i will.

On a fun note...before i left to go to dinner last night... i asked my H how my butt looked in my jeans? He looked at me a little funny and said "what?" i asked again...and said...well i am trying to find me a good man...just wanted a male point of view on my backside.

his response...a very, very hateful..."fine"

Happy Weekend...Jaysmom

Jaysmom,
I know the stress of all this is unbearable most of the time; you need to find time to go out with your friends or call friends & family on the phone after Jay's in bed... I would not go with relatives and talk about your sitch over dinner with him sitting there... he's old enough to understand, and obviously bright enough.

We were fortunate that our angry outbursts and depressive collapses were saved for when our children weren't present. God spared them a lot with timing...

You can't look at what your H has done and use that as a barometer of what Jay can handle... what your WH is doing is dead wrong. Angry outbursts are terrifying to a child, from either parent.

His world is really rocked right now. Tell him you love him, his Dad loves him, and you are sorry that you got so angry but you are just really frustrated, but it still wasn't right. You can't control your WH's actions, only your own. You have to be the one to protect him now, your WH is in no position to be thinking clearly. I know you are strong enough to do that. He needs you to be the calm in the storm as much as you can muster. And with God's help that is quite a lot.

I think if the relationship has become so volatile that you can't control your emotions around Jay then you shouldn't be around your WH at this point & time.

I prayed today that this would end soon for Jay's sake as well as yours.

MSA

I know you are right MSA. I really wish i could not be around H right now. I honestly do, but i can't. I just have NO where to go.

i could move in with my dad, but Jay cries and cries if i mention it...i only mention it as a "fun" getaway for a weekend or something...trying to ease him in...

It's like he knows though. He is getting worse about it too. Never wanting to go ANYWHERE. only be at home.

I told my MIL just today that H coming by everyday i am afraid will be worse on Jay, because if he decides to not come...where exactly will that put Jay emotionally?

anyway...we have been around each other since and i have decided to just take a step back...and when i see i cannot handle being around him...i will simply go to the bedroom and tell him honestly how i feel...that i just feel it best for Jay that i keep to myself while they have time together.

He was very worried about us Friday night. He kept asking MIL if she had heard from us, even woke her at 4 am yesterday morning to see if i had ever called. Only 1 day MSA...1 day of not knowing our where abouts.

my friend said yesterday...see...if you were gone, he would be on his knees. she said...i would only give him 2 weeks, if that long.

MIL thinks that if i try to continue the plan A a bit longer, that will do wonders. she said to me she really thought that he was working his way back home, why else spend so much time with us. she would never say such if she didn't mean it. MIL is not a very vocal lady. she never pushes herself into anyone's business, especially ours...this has been a bit different since H is living with her, but she thinks...that with his mental problems and everything else involved...being at home and making it good while he is there...would be best.

i think i strayed from Plan A for a while (since exposing) and maybe... i should?

its just hard at times...especially PMS.HA! those days...i will just keep to myself.

Jay seems okay...he wasn't in the room when we were arguing at the worst. he came in there, but we stopped and calmed down. when he made his comment about yelling in front of Jay... jay wasn't even in there. it was just a way to get back at me. Jay knew i was upset...that part i hate, because i am with him all the time...i feel like i can't ever cry or anything...without it hurting him.

the past 2 days we have done the usual. I did go out for a while last night to myself and H was with Jay at the house when i came in. Today he came by for a while and said he would be back this evening. I asked him if he would consider going with me to talk to someone...he said...he would consider it. it's a start.

I told him today when he left that i loved him...and that i always want this (our M)...not just for Jay but for the both of us. He didn't comment..as usual, but he was very kind about it...different than usual.

do you think if i just don't bring up OW, the A, everything to do with it in general and just let him come and hang with us...making being home..."feel good" that it will be okay? i haven't really been following the plan A...i bring up something everytime i see him about OW..and what HE is doing...has that been wrong? at times i think i should just chill about it. everything i read says...the A will end eventually and the BS must be patient....am i just being to impatient?

thank you for your prayers!!! Jaysmom

Hi JM, MSA,

Thought I'd give you a bump just to let you know I'm praying and hoping for you guys... ahem, gals...

I'll eventually get into my situation, then y'all will see why I identify with these things, (umm, well not so much with the PMS...) but I think it is important that this thread be about YOU, JM. I am here to help YOU when I post here... perhaps I'll start my own thread soon, I'll let you know, I hope you guys check it out...

I know what you mean by feeling used up... I'm so tired of being treated like dirt, but we have no real choice as long as we try to keep the marriage alive. Yeah, I know plan A is not about being a doormat, but we can't force WS's to treat us with respect either, they just seem like they have NOTHING to give, and the blame is such a part of the fog, they have such an insensitivity to our feelings... at a time when we are certainly oversensitive. What a crappy irony.

I don't think your being too impatient, this stuff is HARD! Just don't give up! That is, be MORE patient! haha, I love double-talk. He seems like he is at least somewhat aware of the pain he has caused, he just can't admit it to you. I know it's hard, oh I know, but try to keep making it safe for him to be comfortable, maybe someday soon he'll be able to let go of his fear of judgement, and he'll be able to admit things to you? (Yeah, another passive strategy...) What you have going for you is that he is very attached to you and Jay, let him stay attached, I so hope he'll go to counseling with you...I hope he isn't teasing you with this possibility...

Oh b4 I write another word, I just want to say that I am praying for Jay too, the story about the picture and the tears just BROKE me. Why can't kids keep their innocence? This is SO unfair, draw strength from his love...kids have so much of it, when your feeling weak, give him a big hug, it'll fill up your "love tank", and help you remember why you are doing this. I have two little girls, and without them I'd have fallen off the rails a lot more than I have. Sometimes I think that kids have it more together than us "mature, responsible" adults. I come from a broken home, I know what this does to kids, I swore up and down it wouldn't happen to me. You swore it would not happen to you...no wonder you won't give up. Right ON! Make it happen!

I'm from Canada, I think you were complaining about cold a couple of posts ago, don't complain to me!!! haha. It is typically -30deg C (-22deg F) during January here. Strange though, today it is 36deg F. I guess we have no ozone layer left up here! Global warming...

Yeah, you heard right, my best friend. WEIRD?! "Weird" just doesn't describe it. I feel like I'm visiting my own nightmare, it's just surreal. I'm losing two people here...

Cake. Cake-eating. I used to really like cake. Think I'm a pie man now. I also have a sudden dislike for fences. I REALLY won't be caught dead sitting on a fence eating cake. EVER. I'm from the farm originally, and I'm an Electronics Technologist, I'd love to (and know how to) electrify the fences our WS's are sitting on... not sure how to do this pychologically though...

But I have been thinking of this, what to do? MSA, seems your leaning towards Plan B...I don't know...it might be just the thing. I mean, I don't know! Yeah, it would be hard taking Jay out of where he grew up, can't imagine making my girls pack up and leave... is there anything else that could be done to set boundaries with out leaving, and still have some semblance to Plan A? Seems like you WH shows some awareness patterns here, might also be nice if you're around sometimes so that you can build on these JM. Just a thought, like I said, an expert I'm not!

STEP 1: What if you took ~2 weeks and totally eliminated LB's and outbursts, give yourself a time goal like this. I don't know if 2 wks is good or not, any longer and I'd go crazy, not that I mean I'd LB the second 2 wks is up. It's just that we all slip up here and there. But I'm saying take 2wks with ZERO love busters. Don't mention OW, NO angry outbursts, rather talk about his days, etc.

If you talk about the relationship, use open-ended, probing questions, try to get him to relate his feelings, NO judgement, NO anger. If he feels comfortable enough to say a couple things, DON'T counterpoint it! There, you've just "won" anyway, you got him to talk about the relationship! It might just be one sentence per day. It won't work every day. Every day is too much to talk about the relationship anyway, WS's don't have much stamina for this. Start with questions that are easy to answer on the less threatening topics. Keep it simple, most people only retain the major points from a conversation. You want him to remember what you've talked about. Then politely question again, open-ended (that is, questions that CAN'T be answered with "yes" or "no" only) Ask for clarification when he says something ("How do you mean that?") Concentrate on HIM! DO NOT talk about yourself or Jay. Most people enjoy being the center of attention, keep the spotlight on HIM. Practice these techniques when talking about his days and other non-volatile topics...practice with other people. If this works, you'll learn a couple things every few days about how he's feeling, then brainstorm new things to politely ask later to expand on these topics. It might take a week to actually get through a whole conversation, but better than nothing... ask, probe, explore, safety, clarify, iterate!

I've been trying this with my wife. It's hilarious. She has told me in NO uncertain terms that she WON'T work on us right now. And she HATES (always has) talking about her feelings (unless its anger, she's mastered that one) And yet I can get her to say about 5-10 things per convo when doing this. She's working on us and working through her feelings, AND SHE HAS NO IDEA SHE'S DOING IT. So far I've gotten her to promise not to talk to OM (although she tried calling recently anyway) and she has agreed to try to talk only to me about our marriage. True? Probably not, but for her to say it is nothing short of amazing. It gives you a sense of accomplishment every time it works, and eggs you on to do more!

It'll be easier to practice this with him around...but we still need to set some boundaries. If this starts working, let it flourish, keep offering safety!

STEP 2: THEN...after the 2wks, if this is not working well, reevaluate. Do this for another wk? 2 wks? Set goals! When you achieve them you'll feel better! Your WORKING it!

At the end of this period, maybe you will be in a position to start a negotiation. At this point, you could possibly ask for a visitation schedule. Ask him to only come 3 nights a week and call first. Ask, DON'T tell. Let him think he is involved. Get it on paper. If his visits are causing Jay undue stress, let him know, and say that you would like a heads up before he comes so you can ready Jay and yourself. Do this if it is true ONLY, I'm NOT suggesting that you use a child as leverage, only suggesting that you should protect what you love: your child, your marriage, yourself and your husband. You don't want Jay upset with WH either! Tell him this! Have everyone's best interests in mind when you explain! Win-Win! Careful, he's likely to be offended here, if the open-ended convo is going well, this love buster might grind it to a halt for a while.

If the open-ended convo is going well, see where it goes first! Maybe this is all you need to do for now, STEP 2 is for setting boundaries, but you might not want them right now if you are learning about your relationship with your H. Gather all the info you can, be strong, be ideal, be his best friend. It sucks (trust me) but it also makes you feel like something is getting done. Do this for YOU, not necessarily for him, but learn to like it!

If this works you'll be in a much better position to set boundaries, if necessary, and STILL do Plan A without moving right now. It is a means to an end, which is to work on your relationship, and (maybe) get those boundaries in place to protect your son, yourself, and your sanity! Then, maybe, you can do plan B in a plan A kind of way.

Just a thought, didn't read this anywhere (but I DID read the open-ended convo thing...) What do you think MSA? Variations? Thoughts? How could this strategy be improved? I'm doing this right now, I'd sure like to know what you folks think!

Eeeks, sorry so long...

Cya!!

Without counsel from the Harleys directly, MBers usually caution against any changes/watering down of strict Plan A & Plan B. Is there any way JM that you could afford a session or 2 or 3 with the Harleys ($185 per)? That would be great.

I think Plan A and Plan B would be hard to combine - Plan A being love, EN-meeting, togetherness and Plan B being strictly going dark. I don't think there is any way to do plan B in a plan A kind of way (unfortunately!)

I very much like CJ's ideas on conversation - good pointers.

How are you doing Jaysmom?

MSA