my husband who left my 3 year old and me still insists he doesn't want to try to work out or marriage even for our son. no counseling, nothing just end it. but when if i talk about it like its over he throws in my face "well your the one who wants to get seperation papers" "your the one who said you didn't have any feelings for me anymore" ( i told him God had made me numb, but that i knew i loved him and would always)* he tells me he isn't in love with me but will always love me. But still insists there is nothing to work out. My gut tells me the guilt is killing him, but i am not sure he is finished with the affair, which he still doesn't admit to or deny. i really think i am losing it. I am trying to be strong for my son, but he has totally cut him self off from him, this part i do not understand. He was so devoted to him kept him all the time, took him everywhere-best father of the year! when my son asks if/when he is coming home he gets mad and very strongly says to him " i'm not ever" why is he being like this to our little boy? Is it guilt? will he ever admit? Help!

Jaysmom,
trust your instincts. Unfortunately for you and all of us BS who have been through it, your WH is in the throes of the affair. He has justified and rationalized his behavior to the point that he is acting like a different person. This is textbook behavior with someone having an affair.

He is being angry with your son out of guilt.

He is a very very confused man right now.

Most of us have been told the line by our WS about how our WH aren't in love with us, but will always love us. This isn't really based on love, but on selfish feelings. He FEELS in love with someone else, and he doesn't FEEL in love with you. This can all be turned around in time.

I hate to break it to you, but you already suspect it, the affair isn't over. To the contrary, it's extremely ongoing. Thus the behavior. I learned the hard way with my WH that his silence meant the worst assumption. If it was over, he would tell you.

He's deep in what we refer to here at MB as "the fog" - it's as if the aliens have captured him. He's a different person then the man you know.

Have you read Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" or Harvey's "When the One You Love Wants to Leave"?

Both very very helpful to give you a rock solid game plan on how to deal with his behavior. It's, as I said, extremely textbook, and your best bet at getting your WH back to your family is by following the plans laid out there and here at MB. Plan A, Plan B...

How long have you known about the A, how long have you been M, and how did you find out? Did you catch him, or did he come home like my H and say he was unhappy and thinking about separation, denying an A, then admitting it later...?

How long has the A been going on?

my husband left 2 days before our 10 year anniversary. I found out because i suspected he was...he did the same thing 5 years ago. everything exact almost to last time. i saw him on his cell, but no # coming into or out at time i saw him...long story short, he isn't very smart the cell is in my name and i found out. he went out and bought another cell and my son told me (he gives him no credit) found his # and caught him again..he still denies even having the new phone. the OW says they are only friends. yeah right. the phone calls started 3 weeks prior to him leaving. when i found out he was talking to her and called him on it he stormed out saying there is nothing to work out. so i believe i caught the affair as it was just starting. how can i get it to end. i don't even know her real name.

The books I cited about will walk you through setting up respectable boundaries - meaning, what the conditions of your relationship are that your H needs to abide by if he wants to stay married to you.
He moved out? Because he has a friend? You are right, "not just friends"...
Defensive behavior...

How did you handle it 5 years ago when this happened? How did you bring it to an end?

he has moved out, but is next door at his moms which makes things extremely hard. he stays gone most of the time stating " its just easier for everyone if i stay gone" 5 years ago i suspected but didn't know for sure until it was over. I found out and called him on it and he fell to the floor in tears. he said he was never going to tell me for fear i would leave. he had ended it. before he left just like now blaming me for everything wrong in the world...he stayed gone 3 months...went on AD's and was home within 2 weeks. He is much angrier this time. and before he never told me he wanted to end the marriage,but then again i didn't know about the OW then. could the anger be because i found him out this time? today has been hard i am discouraged and just want to throw in the towel but this man has adored me and our son. He is just not himself and it worries me. I love him so much because i know the real man but how long can i keep it together? I have to be strong for our son. i am not allowed to run away from all our problems. will he end the affair...he is really struggling some days...very angry..today he was in a good mood telling me all about his day...thats what is so discouraging. help!

I would just really say that "Love Must Be Tough" answered a lot of the questions for me about why the WH is acting the way they are. He is very confused. He won't make a decision until forced to. The anger at you comes from having to justify to himself that what he's doing is okay. The more he demeans you in his mind, the more justified the affair is.

You need to put yourself in a firm position of being able to take a stand that is repectful to yourself and your marriage.

I got those two books from my local library. They were extremely helpful. I liked them because they told me what was happening & why, and what to DO about it. It didn't need a book on the PhD level psychology and types of affairs. I needed INSTRUCTIONS! Sounds like you do too!

1 week has gone by since this post and my husband has started being extremely nicer to me. Nothing harsh said, still isn't talking about our marriage, but then again neither am i. He is being so much better with our son, wanting to spend more time with him but still not much time, just more than before. he still stays gone alot, but insists on telling me most of the time where he is going, although i never ask. we have suffered financially nearly losing everything we have and i know he is very depressed. he isn't facing any of the finacial responsibilities, pretty much he just ran away from home. is it possible that he just doesn't love me anymore and i am not facing the facts. he did talk to the OW ALOT. he did run out and get another cell phone he hid from me to talk to her...and never left us until i found out about her. Please tell me again i am the sane one right? no one would leave there child just because they don't love there spouse right? and tell me why now has he started being nicer to me? I have been very firm with him about things and he cried this weekend (his mom told me) because he didn't know where we were. he has started calling everyday, but doesn't talk about us, usually uses the excuse that he is checking on our son, but never asks to speak to him...what is going on with him...i am going crazy!

Jaysmom,
my guess, he's being nicer to you out of guilt. My WH was really nice to me once he got it out in the open the 1,000 ways I had ruined our M. It didn't last long though, we just managed to get along until a fight a couple of weeks later over a misunderstanding and he moved out in a huff. Your H is extremely confused right now. He doesn't know what he wants.

This is a very very hard stage. BUT, the good news for you is that it is textbook behavior. Everyone thinks their A is different somehow, but they are pretty much alike.

Have you read Dr. Dobson? Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley?

Because his behavior is such a mystery to you, and actually it is painfully textbook, I really would highly highly recommend you get one of these books.

If you want to save your marriage, and I know you do, you have to educate yourself about what is going on here. You need to be the voice of reason, the person that understands what your WH is doing and why, because he doesn't & won't for a long time.

Hi- I really for you since I"ve been in a similar spot a few years ago. Like your H my H moved out soon after I confronted him about the A and got him to finally confess to it. Like your H he wouldn't tell me who it was with. I finally found out it was with a single co-worker. My H insisted our marriage was 'over in his head' and that he was in love with OW. ( I even caught him in our laundry room telling her that on his cell phone.) After H moved out( a few weeks after discovery) he would stop by sometimes to see the kids but would avoid me and when I tried to talk to him he would bring up divorce. I definitely didn't want one so I learned to avoid discussing that because it would just start us into a fight. But H's silence was extremely painful and he treated me like lint from the dryer.To get thru this time I prayed alot and spent alot of time talking to friends about it to try to keep the remnants of my sanity intact.I also read about affairs.My pastor told me to think of H as temporarily insane. That helped some. This went on for another month and meanwhile OW was pressuring H to divorce me and marry her. ( she was desperate to be married!). My H who had been a pretty straightforward man and good dad to our kids for the 15 yrs before his A, was totally confused and seemed to not be able to commit to either of us completely.( Huge sign of conflict avoider.) H then said he wanted to move back home(Felt guilty about the kids.) Said he wanted to reconcile but his heart was definitely not in it. Looking back on this part I would have been smart to insist on joint counseling for awhile before letting him move back in and take up residence as a sofa potato! Finally OW put enough pressure on H that he filed for divorce and it was only afer I received the papers that he finally had an emotional breakdown and cancelled it all. Hopefully you won't end up with as much theatrics as I did but this is 4 yrs later now and H and I are still married and OW is long long gone. Take care and read those books the other posters mentioned- they are excellent! Nancy

thank you guys for all the advice! I went out and bought the books "love must be tough" and "surviving an affair" both have been very helpful. It has been a few days since last post and since H has been so much nicer...we had a long talk a few days ago and i never raised my voice only spoke about how much love we had always had in our marriage, he didn't say anything...at times things did get heated, i was still very soft spoken...he would get very angry and i would ask him why he was so angry with me...he would just hang his head and say "i don't know" Nothing was ever mentioned about ending our marriage...in fact he has never said the word divorce one time...only "there is nothing to work out" He has only told me 1 time he did not love me anymore and that was when i forced him to, but then he said "but i will always love you" that was several weeks ago. He is much kinder to me and has started facing some of the major financial problems we have...which is good.. He is still next door at his mom's and isn't leaving as much and when he is gone he doesn't stay gone for long. The last few conversations he has commented that he doesn't blame me for anything that he is just "sick in the head" or "sick minded" He is gotten much better with our son, more patient, kinder, more loving...but still not spending much time with him...but the time he is, is better quality for him. I guess what i am wanting to know is...is this just a phase...or his he coming around? He still doesn't act much like he wants to be with me...but asks me several times where i am going...i am very firm with him, and vague about where i will be...i have been staying gone a bit...he will act as though he doesn't care but then will say "well be careful" something he did not do in the beginning...am i crazy to think things are looking up? what is my next move...continue being firm, act like i don't care...any advice..?

Things are looking up in that his profound anger which was being directed at your & your son (which was a product of trying to justify his adultery) is turning to confusion.

If you are reading your Dobson & Harley, you will see the "cake-eating" and being "on the fence" that can happen while he is confused. Follow Dobson's messages and those here of the Plan A that makes sense for you.

This takes time, your patience will be tried. You will see him flop back & forth, every day will be different. If you want this over with soon (and I know you do), you will be disappointed everytime he flounders back & forth. Just be patient. Wait, wait wait. This is the hardest time, and it goes slowly.

Keep posting & reading.
NTL

OKAY...help please i think i am going insane. My H has been much better towards me but this weekend kept making reference to needing to get a room to get away from his mom (she is barely home) and i knew he was setting me up for him being gone overnight...i was right he spent the night out 2 nights ago and did not pick up our son from preschool..he told me before he left he would always love me again...but insisted his needing a night away was not what i thought...apologized over and over saying he knew what i was thinking and it was his fault for the 1st affair, but swore he wasn't running around...i also found out he has been taking viagra recently so i am not stupid...i know what he did...he called me last night and was still being nice, told me now he doesn't know if he wants to work on our marriage, before he was saying "there is nothing to work out" but now he is "not sure" he is being much nicer but i verbally told him, i knew what he was doing no matter how much he denies i know, i told him he had crossed the line with me and that i deserved someone who would not lie and cheat on me over and over again...i know he believed me when i told him but i feel he thinks i will cave in a day or two and ask him back or he will believe he can come back...he keeps saying he is messed up in the head, which leads me to believe that is his way of trying to come back home..."i was depressed i didn't know what i was doing" kind of thing (did that before) so i feel he is planting that seed in me so he can come back when he wants...what do i do now? i know i have to stick to what i said but do i do the Plan B letter or continue like i am? i feel he is tiring of his affair..it's getting the better of him...but he just can't let go either...help! please!

I continue to recommend the same, whatever combination of Plan A and "opening the cage door" of Dobson that seems right, using your judgement of how he seems at the time. Remember, a lot of this is reverse psychology.

It feels like it won't work, but it does.

You are not ready for Plan B yet (no contact). It's too early.

As he continues to be confused, you continue with the same message - which is "You need to decide who you want, me or her. Contrary to what you seem to want, you can't have us both. I understand you are confused and such a decision takes time. I love you. I want to work on our marriage. But this has been painful, and I don't know how much more of it I can take." i.e. you imply that at SOME undisclosed point in the future, you may/will decide not to give him any more time. Until then, Plan A sweet. No love busters. Just clear, calm communication. He is in the eye of the storm, not you. You are an onlooker. Don't let yourself get pulled in to his chaos.

NTL

things are starting to feel different. I am starting to really just not care anymore. But i believe it is God making me numb. the past 2 days he has been nice to me, then he was very hateful and angry towards me when i ran into him at the grocery store later that afternoon..(she may work there...he was very jumpy????)
he of course called and apologized first thing the next day for being so mean. I was still very firm and told him he knew the right decision to make but for whatever reason he couldn't or just wouldn't. I told him he had a good wife (he agreed) and that he knew what he should do, then again that afternoon(yesterday) when i picked our son up from him he was being horrid...he was very hateful and this
time telling me he didn't want to talk to me unless it was to do with our son. I was being very cool, calling him on his lies, etc. but never upset (actually laughed at him a time or two)which is why i think he got so angry, then yet again...not 2 hours later this time...he calls..not apologizing because i told him earlier i was tired of him doing that...but called wanting to know about our son..(he had left some things (insignificant things) at his mom's and wanted to know if he needed to bring them over...it was gum)i was very cool and told him no, but he came anyway...very nice to me, hanging around for a while and then left...first thing this morning...calling again...i still am very cool...answer his ?'s and so forth...he is being extremely nice and talky...is this still confusion, or is he starting to worry i just may be finished with him? I really feel as if he is worried he may have crossed the line with me, but still maybe has in the back of his mind hope that i really don't know (although i believe he is freaked out at the things i find out without trying to , God has shown me everything he would do before he does and i believe he is freaked about this) I just wish he would wake up and end this A. Is he coming around at all...i am still reading...and still seeking your advice...thank you so much...

I can see how you think you're going crazy. the stuff that gets tossed back and forth without any resolution can be exhausting. It's easier just to say that you don't care anymore. Unfortunately for me, I have four teenagers and a six month old. What then? I'm so sick of the silly stuff like, "You didn't communicate that." OR "That's not what I read should happen." I'm totally sick of all of it, but it just doesn't go away.

Hey! that's me. He's pulled me into his chaos and continues to make me feel like I caused it all. He actually blames me for "making him tell the truth" because I wanted to know. Who are we kidding here?

You need to EXPECT that his feelings and behavior will change by the minute. He's in the eye of the storm, the center of the swirling tornado. YOU are the onlooker. It is your job to be the calm one - don't get riled by these seemingly senseless changes in his behavior. He's very very confused, wait it out.
[color:"brown"]
Psalm 71
1 In you, O LORD, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put into confusion.

2 Rescue me and deliver me in your righteousness;
turn your ear to me and save me.

3 Be my rock of refuge,
to which I can always go;
give the command to save me,
for you are my rock and my fortress. [/color]

I know, I know. i love this man with all my heart, i'm not ready to give up, i don't believe God is ready for me to. He has certainly in the past 2-3 days made a huge turn around. this is the most confusing part. He shows up at the house, hangs around for a while and then leaves. he is calling me everyday at least once but most of the time twice, morning and evening. Doesn't talk about us, but talks about his day, my day, our son. i can tell he is missing our conversations, sometimes he just rambles on and on about work...something i am sure he doesn't or can't do with his OW, i have come to understand clearly here and in books that A's are based on lies, so i can see why he is missing his best friend to talk about reality. He hasn't been ugly or hateful to me in 3 days, instead being very kind or if he isn't in the best mood, more quiet. He also seems to be looking at me differently, i can't really explain, except when he left his looks were as if he could literally kill me, frowning, just really mad. Now he almost looks sad, or hard to look at me. I have stayed completely firm, but don't talk about us much...is that okay? not that i am avoiding us but i am kind of avoiding us...i just talk to him, i guess waiting until he brings it up, is that okay? I can definitely see a change for the better in him, but why doesn't he confess that there is an OW? the last time we talked about things, he was still denying everything, this is another thing that confuses me so, he KNOWS i know, without a doubt, so why still deny? is it because if he admits it he may feel he has made a choice of the OW and if he continues to deny to me what i know, in his mind he still has the choice of coming home? Oh i think i am confusing myself now?! anyway, thanks for all the advice, i so appreciate, its nice to vent here. please continue to encourage me, i feel much better and things are looking up i am happy with myself and i know i can survive with or without him. God is on my side after all...

Jaysmom, it's okay that you aren't talking about the state of your marriage too much for now... if he KNOWS you know about the A, how can he deny it? How can you not bring it up?
Have you made it plain to him that you KNOW there is an OW, and he can't have you both?

YOU need to decide how long you should be his "emotional security blanket" with these conversations. Plan A + exposure + time usually does end an affair. I had to go to Plan B. He just COULDN'T get off the fence. Couldn't decide between us.

Just make sure no s*x for now even if he tries on a "good day" - don't put yourself through that. It's too painful later when he chooses OW in his fog... even though that won't last.

I'm going to try to cut&paste something that was posted on the recovery site that I really liked.

"When God places a burden upon you, He places His arms underneath you." - Streams in the Desert, Sept. 30

Thank God for that!!!
NTL

I cut & pasted this from the Recovery board:

Read what Frank Pittman says about 'romantic infidelity'


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate-someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own-is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born-any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up every-thing. Men in love lose their heads-at least for a while.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i really appreciate all your advice. things are starting to look up as now the guys he works with know. i spoke to one of them and they actually told me that another guy there had just made the comment he was running around on me. this is good right? exposure...had to happen eventually right. his mom knows, friends, family, work...even though for some reason he still denies..."what girl" "i don't know what your talking about" that kind of thing..but he knows...he has to, that he just looks stupid denying. how long can he go on trying to make everyone think they are wrong? anyway...the guy i talked to is going to talk to him...so he will deny to him...but at least its out there right? he is still being nice, but i have changed. i told him to stop trying to be friends with me i have plenty of those, i needed a husband. my actions, and attitude have changed as well...as to say...you can no longer treat me this way...unacceptable. is this good...i know with time...things will be better...and i still want to work it out, but i feel he needs to face reality and think he has lost me. he has definately been nicer since he thought i was done. is he afraid... i am done? is what i am doing okay? he still goes to see her but in everything i read...its not something that will end cold turkey right? now that people are finding out...this is good right? thanks for your advice...

one other thing i just thought of...you mentioned the part about not doing it...on a good day because he would go back to OW. let me just point out..he is being nice, but if he thinks i might touch his arm or something..he jerks back..tells me not to touch him (this has been only when he was angry) but i did touch the back of his neck 2 nights ago because he had a scratch and he didn't move or say anything...but that was the first time, he has also brushed against me a few times lately but before would majorly avoid physical contact...when you said that it got me worried...as you know i am about everything anyway...its definitly not to that stage...he goes back and forth about if i ask do you want to work on the marriage, one time he says "i don't know" then "no" then most recently both but when he said no..he said "do you" ..i just didn't respond..because he really acts like he is in "LA LA Land"...anyway...just wanted to add that...

Ahhh... it sounds to me like you are doing well. I would not keep asking him if he wants to work on the marriage, he will let you know if he is ready to end the A with OW... it's that "opening the cage door" thing... don't pursue, don't let him feel trapped. A lot of reverse psychology. You might want to check out the homepage of http://www.stopyourdivorce.com for some concepts on this, I found it helpful, but I don't recommend buying the book. If you're going to read an entire book, definitely buy Harley's books like Surviving an Affair.

But this website helped me a lot to decompress our situation, take some pressure off me to "respond in the right way" or try to make rational arguments of why he should not abandon his wife and family... they don't work.

Some good examples there of "going with the flow"...

Also, as far as the exposure at work - yes, it's good. I hate it though when it's all conjecture and speculation. If anyone asks you about it, or you report it to anyone at his work, state it as the fact that it is. He has left his family for goodness sake's! Of course he's have an affair! It's so painful to realize, but... he can't change what he won't acknowledge (dr. phil)...You may be surprised how people who know him and work with him make excuses and allowances for him, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think drawing the respectable boundary of how he is treating you is good. Reread Plan A and Plan B on the homepage too if you haven't lately... Plan A is NOT being a doormat. He will respect your calm and dignified persona when this is all over; it is one of the things that wins WS's back. That and your Christlike love toward him and DS, and your self-respect, believe it or not!

It won't end cold turkey. I would listen alot and say very little to him at this stage. Not coldly, just wide-eyed and observing-ly... know what I mean?

NTL

NTL, you are such a comfort and your advice means so much...but i didn't read your post until today and things got somewhat heated again last pm so i hope i didn't screw things up. i asked him again if our marriage was over and he answered as he always does with another question "what do you think" as if he doesn't want to say...but i took it as if he meant yes...when i asked if it was because of her he answered "who" i broke down a bit, voice cracking and teared up and told him again that i loved him like no other, and i told him he had what most men desire the most...a wife who has never been with another man but him and has stayed faithful to him, something he couldn't have with her. i asked him why then it was over and he said "because of the money and other things" i said that was bull because he hasn't paid anything hardly since he left 6 weeks ago and as far as the "other things" he has yet to clue me in on those. he was still being very kind, after we argued some ..i can't explain its like he tries to change the subject any time we get on us...he always does and if i play that game with him we talk and he is fine. but before he left i told him, very firm, don't call me anymore unless it has to do with our son (he has now started calling 3 or more times and coming by our house almost daily staying 15-30 mins.) i told him not to come by unless he called first and unless it had to do with our son. i felt as though i had to because i felt he was getting to comfortable...he has his OW meeting his "needs" and me meeting his needs of conversation and friendship and real life. he would go out then come in and call me. i just decided i can't let him do that to me...if i don't stop it it will never resolve. am i doing okay...did i blow it by tearing up? the guys from work are calling, his best friend calling and telling him to "wake up" and his mom...and now he keeps saying...i need to leave, mom's driving me crazy "it would just be best if i leave" so i don't know if he is setting me up to leave, if she is single he can move in with her...i don't know if she is...but he has no where else to go and no money...so i don't know why he keeps saying that unless she is and he is considering...if so i think it might be good...he wouldn't make it with her long...and besides he would have to confess then...i really believe with the way he has been towards me lately, if he left it may be just the push he would need, because their relationship is a lie. of course i could be wrong and then i would just die. i am a little worried about this. Last night was the 1st day/night he has not left for a few hours, he was at his moms all evening... which i thought was weird...he has been gone everyday for 6 weeks...NTL am i losing ground? any help is much appreciated.

No, I don't think telling him these things last night was a bad thing - it is part of Plan A - state your love for him and your desire to work on the marriage. Again, once stated, I would not keep asking him HIS feelings about it - you only make him feel trapped and look desperate, plus it's such a letdown everytime he says no... I think you see that.

Also okay conversation,

Are you kidding? Did you blow it??? I am over here doing the happy dance because YOU DID SO GOOD!!! You told him (a) you love him (b) you want to save the marriage and (c) you respect yourself and your marriage & family to stay in a painful love triangle - plus for added measure you refused to continue being his emotional security blanket; which would allow his cake-eating to go on forever. GOOD FOR YOU!!! You will speed up the progress of the end of his affair immensely by following through on this - politely, firmly, lovingly, firmly, firmly, firmly. It is for YOUR mental health and your marriage!!! GOOD JOB!

Then the next step is when he states that he might want to work on the marriage after all, that's when you insist on him doing NO CONTACT with OW and mailing the accompanying NO CONTACT letter to OW before you consider counseling with him.


GOOD!


His blah blah blah fog, just smile and nod & try not to worry about the crazy things he ponders too much...

And 1,000 Marriage Builders say... "their relationship is a lie" You are going to be okay, Jaysmom. You really are! With or without him, you really will be okay. But you are doing the best possible thing I believe you can do by doing what you are...


As I said, I think you are doing just great. Have you been reading Dr. Dobson? It looks like you have... ?

I think you have a wonderful Plan A going, and if you keep it up (again, politely, firmly, no lovebusters) I think you will see him start figuring some things out.

Keep posting,
NTL

NTL...this is too funny, yesterday he didn't call at all, as i expected he wouldn't(pride you know) and i did not call him...1st thing this morning on my way to work...guess who calls... i had been praying..i told God i was at my weakest this mornig for whatever reason and i honestly did not feel any hope for our marriage... i prayed to God that if he wanted me to continue hope for it he would really need to give me something to get through the day because i was really weak...i was tearing up and really didn't know how i was going to get through today...i prayed to God that i felt as though my H would not listen to him and my hope was gone...i told God i needed something...i prayed Lord if you want me to carry on with hope then have him call, i even prayed that i knew he would not call and then shifted my prayer to help me start to cope and deal with moving on without him...and i swear to you not 1 min. after my prayer he called...if thats not God working i don't know what is. H started in on his day...then i finally mentioned our son and went from there. he called me again on my lunch to make sure i was not getting our son, which i made clear in our first conversation...my best friend told me she knew he would call but she honestly did not think he would before a week or at least few days..she said that it shows his pride is breaking down some...anyway...i wanted you to know...God is an awesome God...and i pray he blesses you, for your kindness and advice...so now how do i make sure when he calls i don't let him get too comfortable without being cold or looking like i don't care...i don't want to push him away so i'm not exactly sure how to handle...plus i have come to figure out about his A, before the A he had gotten really obsessed with s-x, or favors. Nagging me sometimes 20 times a day...so i believe he is just obsessed with that in this A...its a long story..i will not get into all of it right now but i know he got extremely depressed over our finances and then got obsessive about that, saying to me he just wanted to feel good for a few mins. to take his mind off of the bills. He does suffer from past depression. we ended up fighting over his nagging obsession of it, and i declined him because it wasn't about me and him, just him...anyway long story short...we fought he said he would never ask again for anything...i said fine, and he didn't, 2 months after and 60lbs. off him later, he has OW and moves out. So i feel like instead of him facing our bills (he is not) he decided to get someone to help him "feel good" and now he is addicted to it. any way...i still continue what i am doing...any other advice for me...?

Yes, our God is an awesome God, isn't he? He reigns with wisdom, power and love from heaven above!

I think as far as the sex issue, was there something else going on that changed his behavior to make him obsessed? Pornography? He lost 60 lbs in 2 months? Was he working out constantly or fasting or something? So it went from that to two mos. w/o sex and then OW?

You are doing the right things, continue on. Listen to God as you have been - He's the only one here with all the answers! My H has battled with depression also, so I know how hard that can be. That may worsen as this situation becomes more & more confusing for him. Just be prepared.

Affairs are addictions, you hit that right on the head.
Once the A ends and he agrees to NC, then you will be in a better position to deal with the other addiction issues I think.

He is missing you, so that is a good sign and puts some power in your hands. If he does not end the A during this Plan A stage, you know you will be in a very good position for Plan B, because he can't even go one day without wanting to talk with you! He will not last long in Plan B I don't think, but it's too early for that yet.

Keep posting, I'll keep checking back this weekend - NTL

Yes, in answer to was there something else going on...things in that department have always been fine, until i went back to work last july full time, i had been working 2 days a week, and home with our son the rest. He was off the 2 days i worked so our son stayed with him...absolutely the best dad in the world... this man wouldn't let our son spend the night with grandparents because he didn't want to be away from him, our son sleeps with us, and he never wanted him in his own bed...he's a real softie at heart. As far as what happened...well i went back to work because we spent all over our savings....SEVERAL thousands of dollars...like idiots...we got credit card after credit card to keep up our lifestyle...then the bills came..and we had no money to pay them...we could have but ...we wanted to still buy the world and take expensive trips...you know...i have no good answer as to why we did what we did...but we did. this was also what happened 5 years ago...credit card debt got the best of him...anyway long story short...they sent us letter after letter, forclosure, etc....thats when it became obsessive...i got really depressed myself after going to work, missing my son and so i just didn't feel up to it much...plus the bills were too much...so i asked him to "take over" paying them...big mistake...he didn't know how...he paid everything and we bounced several checks and stayed in the negative for weeks...then the forclosure letters came...just one thing after another...thats when he started asking for "favors" all the time...it started out just a few here and there...he is a big joker and would ask "how about helping a brother out this evening" that was his cute way of asking...until he was calling me at work towards the end about 10 times a day...asking for that....he would say...if you will just tell me you will i won't ask you anymore today...but by the afternoon...he would call..."you did say you would help me out right?" it just became nagging. he even said to me...i know i am driving you crazy...(i remember it like yesterday now) but i just need to not think about the bills and that is the only thing that makes me feel good...just for 5 mins...i won't have to think about the bills. this was in May...and then he made the comment...i am going to stop eating and lose weight maybe then you will want to be with me...i said, its not that your crazy...i just don't understand why you are so obsessed with it...and its getting on my nerves. then we fought and he said "fine, i won't EVER ask you again for anything..." i said fine, got mad and said 'go get you another girlfriend and maybe she can help you out" ( of course i hate myself today...but i swear...i didn't mean it, that is usually how we fight...he hurts me, i hurt him, we make up...) that was on May 31st. he stopped eating, really, eating nothing for days...his mood changed but i just thought it was from not eating, and he didn't ask anymore, but again i thought it was from not eating...he was still very very loving, still called me 50 times a day...it didn't seem directed towards me...just wanted to lose weight, and he did by August 23, 60lbs gone, and a girlfriend later, here we are. He didn't start acting like before until August...and thats when the phone calls started as well. he promised to call the Dr. because of his past depression...and he did....but he came home saying she said i wasn't depressed, his mom and i just about died...of course he was...look at our financial strain...so we knew something wasn't right...then i find out recently about the viagra...so he went saying ....he was having trouble with that...( he was towards the end...having some...) our last time togeter was in August...but before the calls started and wasn't very long...if you know what i mean...so i figured the pills are to help him with that, but for her, not me. thats what hurts so. the first of August he did ask 1 time and i did, and then the last time i initiated it...but then that was it. So i really believe his depression got the best of him...and he is getting his "feel good" from her/it. he says alot he is sick minded ...but won't call the Dr. Today we went together to take our lease back...and he talked and talked...i was nice, but not overly talkative...i did tell him a couple of times i was through...he said nothing. he is still avoiding the major bills but paying the utilites. but i agree with you...already the depression seems to be a little worse...he is now taking anger out on his mom, but she is staying on him about bills...and it gets on his nerves, but he is blowing alot of his $. Anyway... didn't mean to ramble alot today...but i am worried that he may never come around. He just says he wants to get away from everyone...i asked him...do you just hate everyone that cares about you...and he said "pretty much" but i know that is just his mouth running...he says all the time...i just want to be alone...well...if he keeps on he is going to lose everyone that loves him. is there still hope? even if his depression gets worse?

I can't believe the dr. didn't think he was depressed, did he do a written depression screening and not be honest or something?

I'm not sure what the reason for replacing worrying about the bills with SF is... he just obsessed about the bills that much? We have had a lot of bills, but I don't remember either of us not being able to get it off our minds...? Stress relief I guess. I think addictions often start to feel like the "Wack-A-Mole" game... you hit down one and another one pops up somewhere else to take its place.

So I guess he took you literally about getting a girlfriend, I'm sure he knew you didn't mean that but used it in anger as an excuse to start something with OW. Where did he meet OW - who is she? Work? Friend?

Is he currently on anti-depressants then?

NTL

the Dr. didn't think so because i believe my H wasn't honest with him. We were "together" a couple of times the first week of August and those times he has some trouble...lets just say i'm not sure i even needed to be there..quick...so i believe that is all he went in complaining about..." i think i might be depressed because" so he took a written test...passed because i'm sure he faked most of it and besides...he was happy due to OW. so he got viagra instead...to help him so he wasn't uncomfortable with her. As far as the obsessive behavior before hand..i don't know...things between us were fine until june of this year. He is not on an Antidepressant right now...although he keeps saying he is "sick minded" i tell him...well call your Dr. but i believe he doesn't want to because he knows it will clear things up and he will have to end the A. He called alot this weekend...how do i still be firm...i am his only friend. but he is still seeing her. last night i definitly saw what seemed remorse in him...he came down for a bit...am i just in denial...maybe he really is finished with me and i can't accept it. he hasn't called this am..so i am a bit down...

NTL..one other thing...my husband suffers from severe situational depression, our bills got way out of hand 5 years ago and this same exact thing happened. I don't know if it worse this time, but it seems to be. He isn't paying any bills hardly, still hasn't paid our house. his mom is really riding his case about it because she gave us the money to catch it up. he went out this weekend and bought about $200 worth of clothes for our son. guilt i'm sure because he has been blowing it on himself or her. I am really down today..i just don't know what to do...this weekend we talked alot...but i feel like i caved and when he needed our friendship he got it...when he needed her..he went out with her. He doesn't ever ask to see our son much...i just don't understand. he will come by and visit for 15 mins or so and then leave and he calls all the time..but if he picks him up from preschool...he will only keep him an hour or 2 and then leave him with his mom to go out.. he had gotten better about not leaving but seems to have gotten worse again. is this mainly depression or is it just obsessed with the OW and the A? my best friend feels like he isn't "in love" with her, that he is just obsessed with her. she said i am really going to have to put a stop to his calls and coming down or he will just keep on doing this. but i feel if i say anything harsh to end them...he will run the other direction and think i am horrible...and feel like "why would i want her" i don't want to push him closer to her, but then again i am starting to really resent him. I hear "i would never ever hurt you that way again" so many times it makes me believe i'm crazy for ever believing in him..although i know he was sincere at the time he told me. i don't want to ruin anything especially if the depression is playing a large part. but i am getting really tired of him treating me and our son like this ...especially our son. he doesn't deserve a part time father. the way he was with him before this...once he hits reality...his actions will kill him at how he has treated our son. any advice??? what should i do?

You will really need to examine to what level you continue to be his emotional security blanket while he is still involved with OW. Your prior posts tell me that you understand a lot of this stuff, so I won't say too much - just remember, don't get clingy and come off as desperate. You can tell US that you are a bit down when he doesn't call, but for heaven's sake don't let him know it!

Jaysmom, you are not his only friend. He has OW. If he thinks she is his soulmate, then perhaps he should be forced to rely on her for his conversation needs?

What do you think?

i know your right...i just don't know how to go about it. with our son its difficult and with the fact he is next door also. i can see improvement when i'm tough...but also at times i feel i see some signs...when i'm nicer...i'm going crazy. i have one friend telling me get papers, get child support so you don't have to worry about the house..etc. but i feel if i do then that will just make him angry and he will comply out of anger...(this i have witnessed so far) so i don't think that is the right road. He calls everyday. yesterday he did not, but he told me this am he was going to last night but we had all the lights off and he didn't want to wake us (plus his mom said the same thing..)so he calls first thing this morning...i am nice but firm...i asked him today (don't know why except that i am getting fed up)if he still thought he was "sick minded" (he hasn't said that in a while, but i wrote in my prayer journal i was tired of hearing him say it he should do something about it...yes he reads my journal, at least once a week when he sneaks by and we are gone..did it in front of our son once)anyway...i asked him if he really felt that way? he didn't answer...i told him that if he didn't love me and thought he loved OW, fine, reenforced that i loved him, and all i wanted was to work on the marriage, but i needed to do something for myself for a change...then told him...i would not stand back and let him continue treating our son the way he is. i said you are putting her/it/or whatever above time spent with him and i won't allow you to hurt him that way any longer so get help. silence. nothing said. subject was changed. do you think that was okay...?
i may have blown it somewhat though...when i dropped our son off this morning he really cried hard...then he went to the window of his preschool to wave as i drove by and he was so sad faced...KILLED me..i started crying...talking to God as i do 24/7 saying...i just can't do this anymore...i have to go to work...etc...and my friend called...she said are you okay...i said no..and she said i had a feeling you were not so i called. she suggested i call him and just tell him about our son..so i did. he didn't answer but i just left a brief VM saying i just wanted to speak to him a sec. about our son..(she thought if he got the message..it might really upset him esp. if he was with OW) about 2 hours later..he called but i didn't answer. i hope i didn't blow it by calling.
i am not sure i am doing anything right to blow. if you have any suggestions on how to go about me cutting him off..please...send my way. i just don't know what to say, when he starts talking about his day, i just listen...how do i be firm, putting in his mind he lost the friendship right when he left for her, but still be loving, without seeming cold,hard and unloving? i just want to do the right thing...i think i am so far..but i feel i am at a crossroad and don't know which road to take. thanks for your ears/eyes! God bless.

Jaysmom, this is a hard part, isn't it?
I guess from the MB perspective, reread Plan A material, and run your best Plan A.
Dobson and some others at this point seem to run more of a Plan B - writing the Plan B letter, avoiding or eliminating contact. It's hard to know exactly what to do. I think the best course of action varies from situation to situation, person to person, and is a lot of timing it right. For example, a Plan B in the MB plan which is done too early can turn into Plan D!

I don't think you blew it by calling him about your son. That is SO HARD.

By "get papers" does your friend mean file a legal separation or divorce?

Wow, I didn't realize he was living right next door. With his Mom? Is that correct? THAT is weird, isn't it - not exactly together but not exactly separate - neighbors?

I don't know that you SHOULD be cutting him off; just be aware of the "cake-eating" situation that happens, and monitor it so that you know how long it's going on and when it may be time to go to Plan B later down the road. It is okay to talk to him in Plan A, no love-busting, but I would be careful about asking him if he feels he is sick-minded, or making mistakes, etc. Just lay down the law from YOUR perspective - I love you, I want to work on our M for us & DS, I have been thinking about the areas where I have failed us (list them when applicable to him), but I cannot abide a painful love triangle. Marriage involves two people, monogomous and faithful. I think that is all okay to say. But I thought I was having great success pointing out to my WH how immoral and hurtful to everyone his conduct was... turns out telling him that WAS NOT what made him end the A and come home. Me CHANGING and realizing my EN's, LB's and his EN's and drawing the appropriate relationship boundaries (refusing to stay married to someone who continued to cheat on me month after month after month) was what brought us back together.

What do you feel God telling you to do? How is He leading you? Patience? Talk to WH? Cut off contact with WH? Lessen contact, increase contact???

NTL

Jaysmom,

[color:"brown"]
Romans 8:35-39
Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or are hungry or cold or in danger or threatened with death? (Even the Scriptures say, "For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep."[l]) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and the demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hel[ can't keep God's love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.


[/color]

NTL.. something was very different in me this morning. I never could get out of my head the money he spent on our son's clothes (at least $175 ) but for some odd reason it never came out of our account. he has no CC's and could NOT get one due to his credit. I just could not let it go. he did not have that much cash..and besides i check our checking daily and he hasn't been taking any out. Long story short. i believe OW bought clothes.
When i woke up this morning..i don't know what was in me. i prayed and prayed and i felt nothing in me, no hope for our marriage. i felt as though...i was done. why i suppose that is what God needed me to feel. so i did what i felt i should do. Got the bag with our son's new clothes, walked up to his mothers house, and asked for a receipt. Of course...he couldn't seem to find it. strange since he just bought them, it wasn't in the bag, and there was a ton of clothes. anyway i very nicely placed the bag down and told him...his son didn't want them he wanted a father. told him to stop buying him stuff out of guilt and be his dad. He did not get angry or anything. Just stood there. He did say "i thought you told me to buy him some clothes" ( i didn't, i told him once when he went out on one of his excursions with OW instead of buying for himself or her why didn't he buy something for his son)
long story short...i told him "your right...the marriage is over" i then went into..." i love you, i have only wanted to work out our marriage... but you don't seem to want to. Again i told him i was tired of seeing him choose her over our son" said a few other things and he just stood there. didn't even try to deny her today...but didn't say anything. I left at that. Since then...he has called me 3-4 times this morning. i haven't answered. my best friend thinks he is probably scared. He was suppose to keep our son today because he is off...but he is "sick" (never stopped him before) he is going to be with OW today...gut tells me. So my friend said don't answer, don't talk to him, he is just trying to feel you out...so he can feel better about what he is doing...she said let the last thing on his mind be you telling him..your done. let him worry.
I feel like God has been trying to tell me by you, my 2 best friends...to be tough and i have tried...but i think he has made me feel this way because...i haven't been tough enough. Now i'm armed and ready. i feel really good. Because...why else would he have called so much...? i have never said the marriage was over...think i may have scared him a bit? and i left angry. i know i am suppose to be loving...well i have been...maybe with my H, i need to be hard, tough, ...not cold, but finished. Make him have to work to win me back. Because really...he is going to have to if he wants me. i feel really good...i do. tomorrow may be different...but i did okay right? any other suggestions on what i do next?

NTL...just one more question...how do WS get in that state of mind? I mean...how do they stay there in the "fog" what exactly is going on that they think its okay? and why is it so hard to get them back to reality? I remember before when he "came to" so to speak...he was totally devestated and couldn't tell me why he did what he did. This time with our son...when reality hits...he will just be totally killed. that scares me some. Reality will hit right? at some point?

Jaysmom,
Well, you've gone & done it now, haven't you? I think because you are praying and using God's timing I just wouldn't think to second-guess what you have told him today. I think you are doing great. I'm excited for you! I KNOW - this is very scary, isn't it? Wow. BUT, I have a feeling I might be seeing you on the Recovery board soon!

Why do WS get in that state of mind? Because an A is an addiction, it causes justification and rationalization beyond the scope of what a person can even imagine! Addictions cause people to make poor choices because of the way the addiction makes them FEEL.

Your WH hasn't REALLY thought through losing you. NOW you have just caused a major crisis for him (this is good). NOW he has to realize that you may REALLY be done, and his mind is REELING. He's angry, confused, and has especially just been caused a very worrisome event in which he realizes "Oh MY GOD, this isn't just up to me???? SHE might LEAVE ME???" and it can definitely lead to "What have I done???"

In my experience, which is all I have to go on here, in a day or two or three your WH will possibly be ready to work on the marriage. Possibly. That is what happened with us. THIS is the point where the "power" shifts and you have all the control where before you had none. It is critical to place the right demands on him at that time. Those demands should be:

1. Complete, radical honesty about the affair to you - to include reading about withdrawal feelings from an affair
2. No Contact with OW - ever again
3. A NO CONTACT letter written by him to OW, stating that the affair was a mistake, he didn't love her, doesn't love her, he hurt you and your son, he is sorry for all of it, and he never wants to see her or hear from her again and intends to try to repair his broken marriage
4. Marriage counseling, (Christian, pro-marriage counseling), to include Emotional Needs and LoveBuster assessments per MB!
5. Pastoral support and counseling
6. Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) understanding on all accountability measures taken
7. Anything else that is a deal-breaker for you if it doesn't happen (this may include open email accounts, transparent lifestyle, cell phone passwords, other things...)

If he is not willing to agree to these things, then you hit the nail on the head "hard, tough, ...not cold, but finished." That is your new demeanor until he comes crying, begging to do ANYTHING to save your marriage. So when do you take his calls? When God tells you to. How do you respond? How God tells you to.

And you know what, read your last couple of sentences... "I know I'm supposed to be loving, well I have been, maybe with my H I need to be hard, tough..."

I think you've been reading your Dobson! "Love Must Be Tough" - sound familiar? I think you are a very good student of Dobson. I know it isn't classic MB Plan A/B, but Dobson's methods have saved a lot of marriages also, and don't differ too much from MB.

God wants your marriage saved, I truly believe that.

Keep posting,
NTL

Anything new???

HI! i spent the weekend at my sisters 5 hours away, so i haven't been able to get on here. of course after all that happened earlier with me telling him it was over...he started calling again...and it is SOOOOO hard to not talk to him, especially with our son. the day after, i told him if he was so finished with me...to get the ball rolling and do something about it...i told him i would not pay for something i never wanted...i told him again i loved him and wanted to be his wife. he didn't say anything. He hasn't said much about us at all, but i have been gone. he came down to visit last evening with our son and talks to me like we are best friends, but he doesn't ever show any signs of wanting to be "with" me...if that makes sense. sometimes he gets angry with me over nothing, and i calmly say..."why are you so hateful to me? i haven't done anything" he changes the subject to be nice again. I am still very confused. i don't know which road to travel. I have been praying alot and getting discouraged in my prayers, although i know God is working...his time is not my time, but i feel so weak. i worry about how this is affecting my son. myself. I really believe if my H would get on medication (AD) he would be fine, but i can't make him call the Dr. i want a quick fix, but if i get that, it will only happen again eventually. Any suggestions on what i should do?

You are doing well by staying the course; you've laid down the groundwork, now you just wait to see if/when he turns toward wanting to work on the relationship. What did you think about my email before the latest...with the recovery suggestions? Do those sound like the types of things your marriage would need in place to recover?

As the gospel song says, "He may not come when you want him, but He's always right on time."

Wow, do I feel you there!!

Don't get discouraged.

I'm loving this last part of Isaiah 40 this week...
[color:"purple"] 25 "To whom will you compare me?
Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.

26 Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one,
and calls them each by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.

27 Why do you say, O Jacob,
and complain, O Israel,
"My way is hidden from the LORD;
my cause is disregarded by my God"?

28 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.

29 He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.

30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;

31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint. [/color]



Blessings to you,
MSA/NTL

NTL...little discouraged today. Things are different. He isn't happy (he never has been) but the anger is gone. it's like he wants to keep the A going, but he isn't sure how. I feel like he is sitting up there at his moms thinking...i can't keep doing this...but i am not ready to stop. I don't think he wants to come home to me...but i think he knows he can't keep living like he is. the past 2 days i have been very loving. I told him last night i loved him very much...even though he has hurt me and continued to hurt me and our son...i told him i didn't want to love him, but that God obviously wanted me to. he didn't say anything. We have been talking the last 2 days...as if nothing was wrong..so to speak. I know before when i was being firm...he was scared of losing me. i knew that. i could tell. but the last couple of days that i have been loving...i don't know...it's not as if i feel he wants it to be over...its that i feel he just doesn't know and he is not showing any signs really that he wants me at all (only when he thinks he is losing me) i guess that is my mistake. this morning i took our son up to him and told him that even though i told him i loved him last night it did not mean i accept what he is doing...he just said okay. thats it. but things are definitely better, because, they are not worse. I believe because he keeps making reference to his mental state that all along...his plan was to "have fun in the A" and then get on ADs and come home. He knows he needs to be on his med..but he also knows when/if he does...the A has to stop because...he will want it to (he did before when this happened) and i guess he just isn't ready for the A to end. A's do end eventually don't they? I mean...this will get old right? She will never be me and this man has utterly adored me for 11 years (minus now and the 1st episode which lasted 4 months total) even...if i grow tired and move on...will he regret this? ever? and why has he started acting so nice...but still continuing the A. my friend thinks he may be growing tired of it but isn't sure how to stop it just yet for fear of hurting the OW because he isn't sure he wants it to be completely over...any suggestions? oh and yes...i loved your suggestions on how to recover will for sure use those...

Hi Jaysmom,
I think he's being nice because he's relieved. He was pretty darn scared when you said it was over and you seemed okay with that. NOW, you are telling him you love him, you want it to work out... that puts him squarely back in the driver's seat. For fence-sitting. No one can make you get to the point where you are fed up with this. That is a point you will reach in your own time. However, I cannot help but feel that this cake-eating, fence-sitting will continue until that point comes. But a man can tell when a woman really means what she says, and if you don't really accept that this might be finished, you won't be able to stick to it, and he won't crumble. Sounds manipulative I know, but really it isn't because it is for his good and the good of your M and DS.
That reverse psychology thing we talked about. But YOU have to be ready for it, and to follow thru.
You just continue to pray about this, and do as the Spirit leads you to do. God is there for you, all the time, He loves you, He loves your husband, and He loves your son and your marriage, and your family. He WILL work this situation out for His purposes. As much as you want to the M to work out, and as much as you love your H; cling to God, not to your marriage right now. Strengthen that relationship with God and the rest will work itself out.
It sounds like you have a good friend. She is right on the money, we call it fence-sitting 'round these parts, and it will continue until someone else (i.e. YOU) makes the choice for him. He's too confused to know what to do. Please don't mistake my advice for me wanting you to be FINISHED with your marriage and give up. That is NOT AT ALL what I am saying; I just see him waiting for you to decide before things become clear to him about how much he DOES want to save your marriage.


MSA/NTL

NTL,
I wish i could explain how different things seem. I can't even put them in my head right much less try to explain to anyone else. He is very different. Even his mom noticed and told me last night. She said he was almost like his old self talking to you. I was distant towards him yesterday when i picked up our son, but it was as if he wanted...i don't know i can't explain. He isn't his old self...but we see glimpses. He is still going out and seeing her i know...but, i feel as if God and Satan are in a tug of war over him...Satan telling him...you don't need medicine, you need to be with OW, God saying...Go home to your loving wife, child, get help...listen to me..and my H is going back and forth. I know with out a doubt in my mind, without a doubt, if we still had the money we had...he would not be involved w/OW.
But depression or not...he is involved with her. His depression doesn't justify his affair...although i know it wouldn't be going on if he wasn't so depressed. He is bipolar, so everything he does in that depressive state is extreme and total opposite of himself. the other night when i broke down in front of him...i could tell at that moment that is when he changed...he was able to see me, my hurt, the pain HE caused, i believe he never realized the extent until then. Since he has been different. Kind, at times almost loving, and unsure. i feel i have somewhat the upper hand. But i am at a loss. i don't know if i should be firm, but i can't let him use me over and over. It has to come to an end...and i believe its on its way there. I have a strong feeling he is with her today, but i believe God is really convicting him and making him miserable. I appreciate your advice, you are so kind! Please send any advice my way...i can use it. I am listening to God and my gut and right now i am not sure what God is telling me...so please pray! Again...if he doesn't end the affair..and we go seperate ways...will he regret it one day?

IF you go separate ways, he will regret it every day in his heart for the rest of his life. Even if he moves on, and you are both okay, he will regret it.

Please read the thread by hsmomx3 on the Just Found Out... board. Good example of a WH on the fence, things seeming so promising, and then a little contact with OW and things do a 180... not to be pessimistic (I am the eternal optimist) but to prepare you for how things may start to feel if he has more contact with OW again... he is so on the fence, and his emotions are going to be all over the place.

How old is your son?

NTL/MSA

MSA,

I just want you to know i am starting to freak out a little bit. The way he has changed in the last week is flooring me. I realize that he is confused, and i am sure still w/OW, but not as much. He is being so nice to me...almost like he is wishing he were home nice. You are right...fence sitting. Maybe he has just now really got to that point. You know...really thinking about..hey i DO love my wife, but i don't know if i want to go home, but i sure do miss her, but i don't know....I think he has just now started seeing me like he always has...his wife, his love, his hearts desire, but also...he is starting to realize, oh my gosh...what have i done? How do i stop this...do i want to... I really believe that is where he is mentally, and i believe God is winning the tug of war battle and he is bringing him day by day back to reality. I feel like i may need to use your examples soon, of what he must comply with to come home...because...i will not let him come home on his terms...must be mine, and if he doesn't agree to it...then well...my son and i are doing fine alone and we will survive, without him. My baby boy is 3. prays for his daddy to come home every day...and also that God will fix his heart and head ( i get a kick out of the head ) and i know that those prayers from my precious 3 year old are getting top priority. God is good..all the time. I feel good and i feel like my marriage will survive, but it will be a long recovery. I am going to be firm, but loving. pray i won't give in too soon! any other advice..send my way...

I think you are doing just great. And yes, I do believe 3 year olds prayer's get top priority.

Just stay firm, don't give in to anything less than complete openness and POJA, and NC with OW. It is NECESSARY, and there is no point in doing half-measures. They won't work. If he is going to do it halfway, then he might as well stay away. And you know that's not what I want to see.

I hope he is turning a corner. Both my H's homecomings were very dramatic things when he felt I had had enough and was making the decision for him.

I hope he comes around soon.

MSA

MSA,
well let me just tell you about last night. He was in kind of a bad mood, but i knew God was really dealing with him yesterday. He was wanting to see our son again (which is good...he is asking more and more) so i took him up to his mom's. My son didn't want to stay with him...and my H was very hurt by this.. HE IS FINALLY...seeing the result..i know without a doubt..God finally is getting through. He was different..he was very SAD! he said...its okay he doesn't want to see me...its my fault! I looked at him and said "well you are the only one that can fix it" he just looked at the ground...
You would have been so proud of me...the conversation went on and he was very sad, hurt acting. I told him AGAIN, i love you, i care for you. i told him "you know what you need to do...we've been here before and you KNOW what has to be done" "call your Dr. and get on your meds" then he said he didn't want to talk about it...but he didn't mean it because he just sat there starring into space, sad, and LISTENING to me. i said this is affecting our son, me, you, and you know what you need to do. for the 1st time i said it..."you have to end it, and end it now!" then i said you must make a choice me or her. he just rolled his eyes, but didn't comment.

I left and went home. I know i am getting to him now. He is still confused, but not as much. he knows he wants to do the right thing, and come home. i can tell in his actions, in his face. but he doesn't know how, he is still in denial about OW and he doesn't want to face what he must do to come home...not now anyway...but God is getting him there. after he brought our son home...i asked him why he was so reluctant to get on meds again...i said is it because you know when you do you will realize you really do love your wife...i said that isn't a bad thing you know. He didn't say anything again...then he kind of got ill and said he needed to leave and as he did i said well...if you don't want this marriage..do something about it because i will not continue to let you cheat on me over and over again. His response was well...if thats what you think i am doing okay. See still in denial, but i am getting through...God is showing me that. It has just taken a while, but he is changing.

This morning he called, talked like we were still happily married, talking about his work, etc. I told him i missed him and loved him...he just said okay. (but that is usually what he has said recently...if he responds at all, but at least he isn't saying so, or i don't care, or i don't love you, etc...no response is fine by me)

I hope i did okay...i knew you would be proud of me, especially telling him to end it and make the choice. i am sure things are going to go slow, but i would rather it be a slow process rather than the wrong process. God is working, my prayers are being answered..slowly, but thats okay...God knows what is best. he may even go backwards a bit...but he knows where i stand, and i know he is changing and can't live like he has been much longer. he looks terrible, he has lost about 15 more pounds (on top of the 60 to start) he isn't a big man, and never was. I hope and pray he will do the right thing soon. keep sending me suggestions and advice, i do appreciate so much! Keeping you and your family in my prayers! jaysmom

Jaysmom,
I am proud of you! This resolute firmness may be the thing that pulls him back, loving - not cold, but firm.

We went thru months on & off of "you are the only one that can fix this" - be patient. It is the truth, you are speaking the truth in love to him. That is what God wants you to do.

Just be aware that even though YOU are on the right track, he may force you to go further by refusing to make a decision.

You: You must make a choice, her or me.

Him: Uh-huh

You a month later: You must make a choice, her or me.

Him: I know

You 2 months later: You must make a choice, her or me.

Him: Yup, I'm working on that.

You 3 months later: You must make a choice, her or me. I'm getting tired of this.

Him: I know. You're wonderful, you're patient. I'm working on it.

You x months later: I'm through.

Him: What? I needed some time to decide. So, you don't love me? You don't want to be married to me anymore?

You: Well, I can't take this anymore. You can't decide so I guess I have to.

Him: So you want a divorce.

You: I guess under there circumstances, yes I do.

Him a week later: I love you, I broke it off with her, I'll do anything...

If only this process can happen in Plan A... I hope it can for you. It never did for me. But where you are at with him is a start. Plan A as long as you can. Once you lay down the divorce gauntlet, he may pick it up, know what I mean? Plan B/D DOES end in Divorce sometimes... unfortunately. Plan A as long as you can, you are doing great.

How are you otherwise holding up?

MSA

MSA,
well i am holding up. thats about it. No really i am doing extremely well under the circumstances. i feel really well. God has shown me that jacob and I will survive with my H or without. It is HIS will for my H to be home with us. HIS will for him to love and be a family with us. If H chooses not to listen to God, then God will provide and take care of us, and H will be miserable the rest of his life without us.
Yesterday H called from work very early, he didn't see us come home friday night and wanted to know "what time we came home" I swear if i wasn't in our home and living somewhere out from under his nose this would probably be over more quickly. I really believe he has never wanted our M to end. I think when he first left, he left angry with me and didn't feel like he loved me. Now that time has passed he is starting to realize...hey i love this woman, i love my family, BUT...she will always be there and when i am done...i'll go home. I think he is just now where we talked about a week or so ago...when you said don't give in, he will go back to OW. Yesterday...he was so into me...he didn't admit it, but he didn't have to...
for the 1st time since he has been gone, he was really showing me he missed me. He came down to the house to "fix" the toliet (he didn't have to). i was at home alone, our son was with his mom, and he knew i was alone. He hung around for a while afterwards and we just chatted a bit, me saying more than he did...because i could feel the tension...not bad tension if you know what i mean. It was fairly obvious he didn't want to leave...and he stalled around at leaving, but never asked for anything...guess he knew better...it being the first time he felt that way towards me again. And i am afraid i would have given in, i know i would have, and today would be crushed...God is definitely working.
Our conversations are more at ease, we talk alot. We don't talk about us. I do. I told him again today, get meds, come home...blah..blah. and on the subject of him coming home...he never ever responds. but i believe that is because he is really struggling over it. I do feel as though i have the upper hand. i have said it. choose me or her. he of course still denies a her. this part confuses the HECK out of me. I guess if he admits to OW then he feels like he has picked her and our M will be over...if he continues denying...he still has me in the running, which is what he has always wanted.
So i will probably be saying choose...for a while huh? i guess i never thought about that...i don't know how many months i can keep saying it, before i decide i am through. but i am okay right now...God wants me to hang in there for a bit longer...God is being so merciful to him...and me too. i plan on being loving...but stating the truth...as well...please pray i will not cave into temptation too soon...i don't want to hurt myself that way...and besides he doesn't deserve me until he is sorry for everything. Eventually doesn't the cake make you sick if you eat too much? HA! take care...talk back at you soon...(as we here in the south would say)

I think eating too much cake WOULD make you sick after a while! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't sleep with him. That hurts later, trust me. You are right, he doesn't deserve you until he is sorry for everything and has DONE THE THINGS ON THE LIST that we talked about for recovery. Come clean. Break it off with OW. Get into counseling. Do MB questionnaires and talk about them. Be an open book. Claim what you have done and FIX IT.

As I said above, saying you love him is a big part of it, but usually what turns them around is when you are through. Sad, but true.

Keep praying, I'm praying for you.

MSA

MSA,
well...yesterday was something else. He called me early yesterday am, wanting to see our son. told me he would call me when he was home ( i went to visit family after church) long story short...he was in a bad mood..never called and when i got to his mothers house, he called. i talked to him and he was ill..BUT told me he knew he needed help, said he was messed up and he would get help he promised. Promised on his son's life. then he never came home. stayed out w/OW i'm sure. at 5 am this morning (he goes into work at around 4 am) he called. called because he knew, he had really messed up.
I told him he didn't deserve me, he didn't deserve my love...he agreed, stated you are right i don't. But he promised me again...that he would get help. he lied and said he came home...but he didn't. i don't know what to believe anymore. But i honestly think if he didn't want to be married to me, if he was ready to move on...he would. he would not have called me that early in a panic. i told him again i love you...and i wish i didn't. i told him the only reason i was still there was God keeping me there. but i told him...if you don't get help, don't go to counseling then i am done. i can't live this way any longer. he again PROMISED he would get help. we will see. i am okay with that. i believe if he didn't want our marriage he wouldn't keep promising me. but you are right...he must believe i am done before he will ever come clean. I think his intensions are to come home, after getting meds and never have to admit to anything. wrong. he has to know i am the love of his life and he can't live without me and he is so VERY sorry, admitting everything. we will see...PRAY HARD! God is moving. i know he is. Pray my H will listen to him. he did say also he needed to get into church, that shows me he is really being convicted. any advice on how i should handle things? jaysmom

Stay the course, hold your ground.

He needs to understand you can love someone, forgive someone, and still not want to be married to someone. This isn't a free pass card he is receiving here. It is not a "given" that you will want to stay with him (if he doesn't do the 'right' things) just because you love him.

It sounds like you are pointing that out to him when you say if he doesn't get the help he needs, then you are through. That is the "LOVE MUST BE TOUGH" message he MUST hear from you right now. Re-read your Dobson just for reminders on how to handle this and to stay strong.

"Boundaries" might also be a good book for you to read (Townsend)

MSA

MSA,
Last pm he was kind of ill, but i never mind him being that way...i know he is dealing with things when he is. I wondered if it were due to it being Halloween and holidays have always been such a big deal for him, we have always been such a tight family, doing everything together. He promised again as we were leaving he would call, he knows he needs help, even told his mother...which makes me feel better because he isn't just telling me that to pacify me.

One thing i have to ask you though...and hopefully you can give me some advice...why does he continue to lie. I mean why does he deny any wrong doing. any OW. Lie about being home etc. Is that mental or just all part of the obsession of the A, the addiction? Why doesn't he just tell me? this part i think has been the toughest to swallow, but then at times i feel i should be happy he does lie, does deny, because i think maybe he does that BECAUSE he loves me and thinks by not telling the truth he isn't hurting me? i don't know...any advice???

He promised by tomorrow he would call his Dr. to get back on his meds. We will see...thank you for all your prayers...please continue.

I hope he does call the doctor soon.

Why does he keep lying? I'll check with Mr.Stowaway, because he lied for a month or two after D-Day when he said he wanted a separation because I was so awful for him, and he didn't love me etc.

BUT I THINK they lie because:
1. They don't want to deal with the reality of what YOU might do if you really know about the A for sure. You might draw firm boundaries, you might leave him, who knows what you will do?

2. They don't want to hurt anyone. Although it is way too late for that, they don't recognize that. They still think there is an easy way out, and they are busily looking for it.

3. They can't accept the reality of the pain they have caused everyone, that they have really f*d up this badly.

4. Their own delusions, justifications, rationalizations which can go from "It wasn't cheating since our M was over anyway" (this is common!) to "I haven't actually had sex with OW, so it isn't really an affair" (never mind the damage of EA's and PA's w/o intercourse) to "I'm going to get myself out of this yet - break it off with OW, then I won't want my W to know what really happened."

5. If my W knows the whole story, my M will be trashed, we will never be able to recover from something this big.

6. I have major feelings for OW and my W, and I can't decide what to do, I need to buy some time to work things out in my head.

7. Everyone will find out, everyone will judge me.

These are just my top 7 guesses... really, what does HE get out of telling you the truth? Your trust?? Hah.

Nothing is in it for him to be honest with you - the lies pay off a lot more. If he fesses up then he's going to have to DEAL with the consequences of his behavior. I think you need to flat-out cold bust him. Voice recorder, Private investigator, you name it. Or just bluff and tell him you know all about it but you are not going to reveal your sources. If you seem sure enough, he'll fall for it.

The pain of suspecting, and the pain of KNOWING are two different things, too, I'll warn you. You NEED to know the TRUTH, but it hurts like he[l.

I will keep you and your family in my prayers -
MSA

Msa,
i never really thought about it like that. you are exactly right! why SHOULD he tell me. Today i just feel icky. I have been at work just starring at my computer, thinking how much he is getting on my nerves.
thinking about how stupid he is to run around on me and our son. thinking how great a husband and father he WAS and how he is just a POS right now. thinking how he has lied to her about me, making me out to be something horrid, when HE KNOWS i am not. thinking...what is HE thinking? It is just so OVER MY HEAD. i just can't understand HOW he can feel so strongly for someone he hardly knows and what he does know about her is mainly lies. Why for whatever reason God hasn't revealed this A to the world. How he can keep going on enjoying himself and not have to pay for it?! All the while jake and i are missing him terribly. But not this man he has become. The good old H is use to be that thought i was just the most beautiful, wonderful woman ever. How do you lose that? just 2 months before he left...(he is such a goofy/joker...) he would tell my son.."tell your mom...she's a 'good lookin' moma'" he would say it over and over to me. that was my H. VERY loving.

i guess i am just a little sad/down today. Yesterday he was very ill. He just has very little patience w/our son. He really had been doing much better, but yesterday our son was a real pill, and he just couldn't handle him. he kept him for 2 hours and that was it. hasn't kept him since last tuesday. Promised to call the Dr. but we will see. He needs to do something...2 months gone and nothing...
well i shouldn't be soooo negative...he is much better. i praise God for answering prayer and getting him to this point...
I guess MSA... i am just getting to the COMPLETELY FED UP point with him. I don't know if i want him (i do, but for how much longer?) i am 32, and i don't deserve this crap. i deserve my life back, my sweet H. If he doesn't return soon...i deserve someone who will love me and jay the way we have loved him.

sorry to ramble on so...tomorrow hopefully will be better. must be the weather, i have been doing so well. and nothing has happened to make me be so ill, maybe thats just it...sittin' on the fence...starting to really hurt MY backside! Maybe i will just take the cake away, i know i am going to have to soon...maybe today...we'll see...

MB went down JUST as I was finishing a long post to you yesterday... ugh.

I have no idea what I was saying... I thought it posted in time but obviously not.

I think I was saying that getting completely fed up with him is a normal and natural reaction to his cheating. How could it not be? And I was also saying that you aren't rambling, and that I felt like such an emotional vampire to all those around me during the A, I just needed so much support and the A was all I could think about. But now I realize that they WANTED to help! So don't ever apologize for accepting support from anyone.

You don't deserve this. Once your WH realizes you may move on without him and be better off, he will come to his senses probably. BUT, where will you be then is the question.

You know what I know? God can soften the hardest, toughest heart. I know because my heart completely shut down when I filed for divorce. I have never felt a wall go up around myself that was so out of my own control before in my life. You can't even change the feelings if you want to. But God can. Thank God we have an Awesome God, and He is bigger than all of this Jaysmom.

MSA

MSA,

i feel better today. H is SOOOOO very ill. Yesterday he was just a pill. he has been x 3 days. also in those 3 days...he hasn't gone anywhere in the evening. i am wondering if its dying down...and he could possibly be in the withdrawl? He didn't call the Dr. yesterday...but said he would today...WE WILL SEE.
BUT.... i pretty much...took his cake yesterday. I told him, "i am fed up" "i am NOT going to do this much longer" i said "i love you today..still" but i can't promise tomorrow i will.

My H grew up with an alcoholic father...he had a pretty sad growing up...his mom stayed in the home, and this is alot of my H mental issues. the good that came out of it, he HATES alcohol and never allows our son to be around it (he feels very strongly about this, one of his qualities i admire so much) anyway...we had or i should say...i had an intense conversation with him last night, HE REALLY LISTENED.

I told him he knew what the right thing to do was, i stated that 2 months prior to him leaving he loved me and our son more than life, I said..you may not feel like you do, but down deep YOU KNOW you still love me that way. (silence the whole time) I said, you know what God wants you to do...You know you need to come home...YOU MUST END IT. I then said..."i love you and still want to be your wife" " i am here for you.. and you can't do this alone" I said "as hard as it is for me i will help you get through this if you will just let go and lean on me and accept my love and help" then i said what i think may be the push...
I said "THIS IS YOUR ALCOHOL" " you know it must stop"

Just silence. i proceeded to end it by but... i will not wait on you forever.. he was ill by that point, and responded by "fine don't" "i never asked you to anyway" but i think the things i said really hit him hard, i don't think he ever really compared himself to his father...even though it isn't alcohol, its an addiction...just the same.

as soon as he said that he changed the subject and was immediately being nice. He has been sort of distant to me the past couple of days...but He is really struggling with knowing it must come to an end...that is why i wonder is this possibly withdrawl?

anyway... i feel really good about what i said, and how i have acted. I believe i have followed what God has wanted me to do, and now i feel God is leading me to distance myself from him. I have said all i feel he needed me to say, now H needs to want and miss me. So i am going to limit my contact with him until he is ready...Ready to make things right, to work on us, our family and his faith.

I pray for you and your family...God will bless you for your kindness and your advice. i guess my boss would really like for me to get to work so i will speak with you later--jaysmom

My H, same story except he ended up with his own alcohol problem years ago. We thought addictions were behind us before the A.

Pointing out the similarities will do some good, but don't expect it to be a total wake-up call. He is still very confused. I think you are doing a great Plan A.

What are YOUR issues in the M? The LoveBusters that you used on him? I know I sure had mine, we all do. Examining those might be your next step. Disrespectful judgements? Independent behavior? Angry outbursts? (Anger doesn't need to be shouting either, it can be irritation, resentment, a general pi*sy attitude, hostility) - just some things to think about.
You are in my prayers!
MSA

definitly the attitude, hostility. i haven't yelled or screamed or been very angry at all with him...even when i first found out. Not to say that i have been perfect...i have not. i have alot i should work on. but i think the attitude is the worst...

Speaking of how do i go about that...that is what he mentions most..."why are you so ill?" i hear that nearly every other day...so that is a problem...I don't mean to seem ill, i am trying to be firm, but i come across...P**sy.

i am still doing well..still okay hanging in w/Plan A. I can tell a great deal of a difference in H. He doesn't want our M over. I really believe you are right on the money...so confused. but the confusion i think is mainly that he knows it is wrong and he knows he should come home, he knows he loves me, but he doesn't know why he feels like he does. i think he feels he is confused about why he feels like that and why he doesn't have the desire or will power to. But i know he is trying...God is really working on him.

How do i go about not seeming p**sy, yet not seeming happy with the situation. i am afraid he will just keep sittin' on the fence if he thinks i am fine. it does seem to bother him if he thinks i am ill. this has been a problem our entire m. he always is the first to apologize, he can't stand to think i am mad at him...something i plan on changing in myself. i took advantage of that...many times he apologized when i should have. but all can change for the better....and will....God is good...all the time!

Ah, he's a conflict avoider. Actually as far as your own LoveBusters, I did mean before the affair. What was wrong with the dynamic in your marriage that you can change? You are working on that I think I can see.

In plan A, how not to do LoveBusters but be firm? Sometimes you just can't, and that's when Plan B comes into play. WHen the WS is just on the fence and WILL NOT GET OFF and you can't take it anymore. You may be close to that point it sounds like.

But you keep reassuring him you are there for him and want to work on the marriage. This gives him a lot of security. No need for him to make a decision right away, in his eyes. You'll wait. Frustrating, isn't it?

MSA

Very frustrating!!! i have prayed that God will give you the advice to give me, when i ask you things. and for the first time i hear it loud and clear.

i know that God wanted me to tell him that i love him, that i want to be his wife, that i DO NOT want our M to be over. I believe God needed me to start being very loving towards him, to draw him back to the love he has for me. That was the main lovebuster in our m. my H showed a GREAT deal of love for me and i did not return the same to him. Even though i love him as much if not more, i have not always been as loving. i started becoming very worried with my weight gain, appearance, just really down on myself. He would tell me over and over...your beautiful, i love you, etc. i just didn't accept it i think, became depressed and withdrawn, especially towards him. and in the end...i was just ill alot and that is what i think pushed him away, and into her arms. she was telling him everything he needed to hear and i wasn't. His love was dying for me.

that is why i believe i have had to just show and tell him the past 2 months how much i love and need him, because...he didn't feel much love for me...i know he felt some...because he couldn't completely let go of me. Now that i have told him, showed him... i feel stuck. not sure what to do...but it is out of my hands...and in Gods. sometimes i would say things to him so lovingly and afterwards i would shake my head and wonder "where did that come from" i felt like knocking him out and i was being mushy. only from God. i had to draw him back to my love, and put a desire for me back.

so now...i am just getting tired. he knows i love him. Last night he was just awful. He has been for 2-3 days, almost as bad as when he first left! what is that all about? i thought he would go backwards but that much? of course i did some LB's i shouldn't have, yelled at him some..he left, but within an hour or so he called back...using our son as the excuse for calling. then i apologized for yelling at him. then hated myself for apologizing.

his mom who is on my side and keeps reassuring me she is...wants me to just not say anything about OW for a while. she says maybe if i just don't bring her up and just keep encouraging him to get to the Dr. then he will end it sooner. she isn't trying to get me to let it go, she is just like me...don't know what to do. everything i do seems to just not work. if i am nice and tell him i love him, he seems okay. if i am firm and tell him i am fed up, he gets angry, then tells me fine, i don't care, but he always calls to see how i am, to feel me out to see if i am serious. talks nice and acts like things are fine with us.

i know what i have to do, you and my 2 best friends have said it for days. he is on the fence and will stay there until...i make him believe he has no choice left to make. is it normal for the WS to be angry and act like they don't care if you are finished with them. maybe that is what i should've asked all along. and when he calls me after he gets scared i probably shouldn't answer for a few times to really get my point across. he doesn't want to end our M, but he doesn't want to end his A either, and it is more important than our M right now. this is what i need to do to change that. any suggestions?

MSA,
one other quick question...tonight my sister was in and the fam all went out to eat. while eating i had 3 missed calls on my cell (i turned the ringer off...knowing he would probably call) i decided after the 3rd i would try him back ( i know i probably shouldn't but i got worried since it was from his cell he might be broken down somewhere...what is wrong with me?)

anyway....i called him and just very firmly asked "did you need something?" he said well i was just checking in on jake...i said well we are busy...did you need anything....he said "well...when were you planning to come home?" THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZY....

he cannot stand not knowing where i am...but yet still doesn't want to be with me. we talked about 15 mins. i asked him if he had called his Dr. NO, but of course promised again he would...this is gettig old. he flip/flopped from being nice and talky, to being rude...not angry just rude/hateful...then back to nice...

sorry i said it would be quick...but my question is ( and i probably have asked it before a trillion times) but WHY?????? why does he care where i am? why does he call and pretend not to care about me and try to just make it about our son, when it clearly is about me as well...(clearly to me anyway) but if he doesn't tell me where he is and he doesn't want to be at home with me and jay...then why does he care where i am?

so sorry...very frustrated...my dad said you should have told him "if you want to see jacob so badly then why don't you come home where you can see him all the time" Daddy getting a little annoyed with H. ( i am his baby girl you know)

any advice MSA? I SURELY will appreciate

Jaysmom, I think he gets upset with your attempts to move on with your life or not inform him of your every move because it takes the choice from him. HE WANTS to be the the one in control. The WS thinks they are the only one making the hard decisions in these things. He needs someone to point out to him (not you) that you will move on, find a new nice H, a new second daddy for Jay, and you will be fine. Of course, that isn't what any of us want to see happen, but I do wish he would realize that is what will happen if he leaves you... eventually. People remarry, that's what happens.

He doesn't want to change, but he doesn't want to lose you either. Really, have you read Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, or lately? It's useful for your situation.

One other thing, I know when this happened before it seemed to be the meds. I blamed my H's waywardness on his anti-depressants at first, but since have found that most or all of his behaviours were a product of the A, not the AD's. Just a thought. It is probably more the OW that is causing his confusion than not being on his meds. Of course I don't know your entire situation, but that's my feeling.

It sounds like you have some great friends there to support you. That is so helpful & good, they are a real blessing to support you being with your H but being firm. Too many people usually just give the advice of "Dump him" and that is not usually necessary or the best thing (esp. for Jay).

How long have you been in Plan A?

How are you communicating to him the things you realize about how you were in the M before the A happened? Sounds like there were love-busters all around, there usually are, have you written or told him how you take responsibility for what was wrong in the marriage, and how you have grown and the things you have realized about how YOU contaminated the relationship? VERY POWERFUL Plan A stuff to do.

How long have you been in Plan A, about a month-6 weeks? Start reading up on Plan B, just so you understand the differences should it become necessary, which I have a feeling may happen with your H...

Don't give up hope. God loves you, God loves your H, and your son, and He does not want to see you divorced or your family broken up. He WILL help you, as you know, there is a light at the end of this tunnel.

MSA

MSA, well...living in limbo s**ks! i feel like i am in limbo. Plan A seems like limbo to me, but i am still hanging in there.

I am really getting to the i don't know if i do want him stage. I really don't like him anymore, not this person he has transformed into.

Yesterday i read your post and he was at home when i got back after church. our son was napping and he had wanted "time" with him (shocking) but he didn't want to wake him...so i said well...since your here we really need to make some arrangements for the holidays. he said what do you mean? i am like...HELLO...but very firmly just said, you know Thanksgiving, Christmas...what do you suggest. He hung his head and said i don't know..i haven't thought about it. duh! hasn't thought about ruining his life either apparently.

I am in rare form today can you tell? Ha! anyway long story short, i very politely said..."i have really been doing some soul searching this week love, and you know what... i am young, and i AM attractive, and i don't deserve this...there is someone out there that will love me, not cheat on me and love our son as his own to fill the void that you have left in our lives." " i am getting VERY tired of you and this mess" but for the first time ever...what i said i truly felt. not said for the hope it would make a difference. truly felt. i am young, attractive, and i don't deserve this.
he of course got mad, told me he wasn't going to stand around and listen to my s--t. but didn't leave....stood around and kept his head down and listened until...he WAS ready to go. he did leave angry, but 15 mins later guess who called. YEP!

at that point i just talked to him about our son, church, family...this time he really talked to me, in depth about those things...just like we did before all of this. but i stayed firm about some issues that were brought up. but also...want him to miss me and desire to come home...knowing he doesn't have much time left to make the right decision. after our son woke up he came back home to visit with him. he is still buying him alot of toys and things, and still not paying bills like he should. he just isn't facing a whole lot of ANYTHING.

first thing this morning he calls...asking about our son. but he knew he was still in bed that early. i prayed very hard this morning before he called that God would clearly (put it on a billboard sign for me...) show me my next step. i feel i have been doing what God needed me to do. but i also know my feelings are changing. I don't want this man to come home to jay and me. I want my sweet H. he is in there somewhere right? He is so unhappy and looks troubled all the time. How does he continue living in that state? i would be miserable. i believe he is, but can't get the guts to do something about it. Gonna have to make a decision soon or there won't be one to make. I will have already made it.

i know he knows me, and he knows i am getting very tired of this. He isn't gone hardly at all anymore. Very rarely. before it was everyday. last week he only left on 1 evening for just an hour or so. Maybe he is finally giving up. Maybe i am just being hopeful. but regardless, what he and i have is truth, family, love. what he has with her is lies, lies, lies. he is already miserable, and if not careful will be the rest of his life. God is good...all the time...God is good. speak to you later...jaysmom

GOOD JOB!!! I LOVE IT! My H sitting over on the couch heard your quote and said, "WHO said that?" He knows a woman who has made up her mind to move on has a way of stating things that lets her (former?) man know she really means it this time!

You have such a good handle on this. Just DON'T BACK DOWN. When the firmness starts to work, and your self-respect shining thru scares the heck out of him, you just stand firm for those 7 demands we talked about a few weeks (?) ago.

Your Dr. Phil mantra for today, "I'd rather be healthy alone, then sick with somebody else." Over & over until you believe it.

God is good all the time, all the time God is good.

MSA

MSA,

sometimes i crack myself up! Last night he was being oh so kind...but he did go out around 8:30 ish. My girls and i have come to figure she must work until 9:00 sometimes (this being the typical 1 or 2 times a week leaving hour, usually comes back in around 10 sometimes 11) anyway...he came home around 11 last night.

Well our son decided he didn't want to stay with daddy today so i had called earlier and told his mom to have him call when he got in to let him know he would be going to preschool....

we live beside each other...but not right beside ( we share a driveway but we are a distance from hers) anyway i can always see him coming home, ( by the way our home is positioned) at night due to his lights. well apparently he didn't want me to know it was as late as it was and he turned his lights off...HA!

I called as soon as he got in and i said...oh did i wake you? he said well of course...I JUST DIED LAUGHING i couldn't resist. I said you just kill me ...lying...but i let it go there. didn't want him to think i cared too much. But he sure must, going to the trouble of turning his lights off...really trying to conceal this still...but his luck is running out and it has just got to be exhausting trying to keep it hidden and keep on with it.

i can really see he is battling this and it really is getting the best of him...he will have to stop soon or it will be too late. I honestly don't know if i really want him anymore. I am getting to that place you were when you decided to file.

if he doesn't stop it soon...when he ends it...i will be gone. poor thing just thinks its rough trying to hide and keep his affair going, wait until he realizes the love of his life is gone, and the wonderful life he had is gone, never to be had again...all for his selfish pleasure. Hope his few months of infatuation and SF was worth losing his entire life and happiness. and resulting in a child who will always resent him down deep.

I pray he will change soon before my heart is completely cold for him.

Hope you and your hubby are well...hey if he can offer any advice to me...tell him to send it on down...


speak to you soon...jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom, my only suggestion at a glance is that you should tell his Mom the message. Don't ask him to call you, don't call him. I think it's a page out of the Plan B playbook. Don't initiate any contact with him. A complete Plan B is probably out of the question with him next door.

I know i shouldn't have called but i just couldn't resist the temptation of it. And i can't believe i sent that big ol' huge post and forgot to tell you the most important part of it.

When we were talking he got mad at me of course because he was "caught" again. So he started trash talking me and cussing me...i just stopped him in mid cursing and said "listen here...YOU had better stop talking to me and cussing me that way and start showing me some RESPECT right now" i said.."you have made me out to be this horrible person in your head and you know that i am not so from now on get rid of that crap you have made up about me and start treating me with respect...respect that i deserve as your loving wife and mother of your son." just complete silence.

subject changed and he was nice once again.

Yesterday...same situation...no real arguing. we talk. i just very firmly take control of some matters that drift into what could be argumentative. I have really gained alot of control back. maybe because of how i feel. Again yesterday i told him...you need to stop it and get home with me and jake. He just hangs his head...sometimes acts like a child being punished. REALLY, what is that? he honestly does. the past few days and anytime in the past were i have been in real control and firmly holding ground...he drops his head down, doesn't say anything or not much if he does and its like a child getting yelled at for something they have done wrong.

sometimes he reacts...like turning the TV up louder so he doesn't have to hear me...again childish. but he hears me and a while later it is sinking in because he really is up and down emotionally.

He isn't angry with me at all anymore...at times he says things out of anger...(mainly because i aggrevate him about his lying, denial...) but he always goes back to being loving and nice....Yesterday he washed all my laundry for me. (the washer broke and he tried fixing it but couldn't so he took my laundry to his mom's and did it) See he really does still love me...(he has done these little type things since he left...goes down leaves the light on when i will be out late, feeds the cats, takes our trash...) really he must plan on coming home...he hasn't really left has he?

please pray...i believe God is telling me he is growing tired and will possibly end it soon...pray hard i will do as God directs me to...take care! jaysmom

MSA...today is good...just wanted you to know...THINGS ARE WORKING!!!

thank goodness...He is finally coming around...things are getting there. He is getting there. Please continue to pray! God is an awesome GOD! jaysmom

How is it going today, Jaysmom?

MSA

Dear jaysmom and Mrs_STOWaway:

I have never posted to a message board before, so please forgive my ignorance.

I have read through much of your dialogue and am amazed at the similarity of situations between yours and mine. Infidelity is the most dreadful thing I've experienced in my 43 years, and some days I don't know how I can bear it.

I would be very interested to hear any advice or suggestions you two might have. I discovered his infidelity through e-mails in August. He moved into his own apartment in September. I am committed to reconstructing our relationship, but I am overwhelmed by his lying and his distance and his lack of caring. He has said, "I don't love you anymore," and "I don't love you the way you want me to," and other various justifications for his A. He says he's confused. He says he doesn't know what he wants. He says he wants us to start at the very beginning. But there have been so many lies, I don't know what to believe any more. I am afraid that the trust issue has been broken into so many pieces, we won't be able to repair it.

I am at the point now, three months after D-day, that I cannot see him without falling apart completely and I have asked for no contact until he decides for himself if he wants to reconcile. I am filled with anguish and remorse and guilt for my part in creating a situation where infidelity can continue.

I am incredibly open to any help you might have. It will be particularly useful, because you both have been there.

Cherubino

MSA,

Well...things are getting interesting. Last night H came down had supper with me and jay and watched a movie with us. We didn't say much to one another my son was SO happy. but we got along fine and he seemed very happy to be "at home" I stayed very firm when he left. He knows i am at the end of the rope. When he left he yelled "love you" aiming it to jacob, but EVERY other time he always says "i love you JACOB" putting his name on the end to make sure i know it isn't for me. He thanked me for supper and left.

Called me before church this morning, i asked if he would like to go with us and he very nicely said " i won't get finished in time with work to go" (he works every sunday) but i thought it was refreshing that he answered that way instead of just plain NO. He wanted to know if we would be home this evening but i didn't ask why.

Things seem to be better, he doesn't go out much, and he seems more interested in me and definitly worries if he thinks i am upset/mad with him. But i am starting to feel that...do i really want him kinda feel? that is normal right? the fight isn't as hard anymore and maybe that is why i feel the way i do. I still must stay firm and he must comply with your list you gave me to go by plus a few added details...because i truly believe he thinks he can come home without ever admitting to doing anything. maybe he doesn't think it, but that is what he wants. Not gonna happen. He must be honest or there will be nothing to work out.

just wanted you to know...things are looking up, he definitly has changed his mood/attitude towards me. Especially after my RESPECT speech. He is wanting to come home...but i don't think he has completely ended it and he doesn't know how...I still pray "without ceasing"

continue to pray for us...and you are in my prayers as well...any advice please send....Jaysmom.


Cherubino,

I want you to know i am praying for you...the only thing that i know of that can help is PRAYER! some advice from me and this is so much easier said than done...but you just simply can't fall apart in front of him EVERY TIME!!! i have seen so much of a change in my H since i started showing him that basically life goes on without him as well as with him.

i tell him, as you have probably read, "i love you" "i miss you" "i want you to come home" but also i tell him "YOU MUST END IT" "YOU MUST CHOSE ME OR HER" Keep in mind, my H has still to this day, nearly 3 months later, not ever admitted to another woman. He still hasn't admitted, or denied anything to do with OW. but i know there is, and he lies alot, and HE knows i know he is lying...but as strange as this sounds...with my H i believe he lies and denies certain things because he does still love me so much...with our history i believe that he can't believe he is doing what he is doing.

but he is. and from his very early phone calls and his late night apologies...i know he doesn't sleep well, and he is miserable, but as you have read i'm sure, A's are addictions.

MSA has been such a comfort and her advice has gotten me through so many tough days. she has been able to explain H's moods/actions to me to help me understand. continue to read/post...believe me it helps...i just ramble on and on...but if no one else minds...then i continue because it is such a relief!!!!!

try to be strong...PRAY...post...read...buy/check out books...PRAY..PRAY...PRAY...God is the answer, he is bigger than our H's A's, bigger than any problem or trial. Its hard to give it to him, but such a comfort... i find my peace and joy only in him...he has allowed me to live. He has worked, breathed, ate, slept, and taken care of my son for me so many days since H left. lay down your burdens on the Lord and he will carry you.

my prayers with you and your family...jaysmom

Jaysmom, I think you are doing well. The ONLY piece of advice I have at this moment is for you to absorb and remmeber that you will NEVER have more LEVERAGE about what you want & need in the relationship then the moment when he does say he wants to work things out and do whatever is necessary to win you back.

Don't make statements to him right now that make him think you are there for the taking. Stick with statements about being at the end of your rope, sick of this, maybe someone new would treat you better, you don't deserve this, etc. Make these firmly, not in anger. Better yet, don't make any statements at all, just leave him wondering if your heart has closed down to him forever.

Stay away from statements like "What you are doing is wrong. You belong here with me & Jay." He already knows you feel that way, and I know it's the truth. But every time you say it to him you reinforce that you are still waiting for him to come home, and that you are there for the having. You want him to feel that YOU are now in the driver's seat, not him. You want him to come to YOU begging to do ANYTHING to repair the damage. That is the lack of control he MUST feel in order to put his heart in the place it needs to be in to repair the damage and heal the marriage.

Is this, then, all about power and control? Well, kind of. Except you aren't wielding power to hurt anyone or to control him in a negative way. You are the sane one right now. You are the one who is not in the throes of a harmful and powerful addiction. You are the one that has the RULES and demands that will SAVE your family. The list I gave you and what you have added to it are not unreasonable or selfish or controlling demands. They are NECESSITIES to the healing of your marriage. Without those things happening, the possibility of a reoccurence or incomplete healing are too high. The list requires surrender and brokenness on his part, he won't get there until he stands at the brink of losing everything, or thinking he already has.

Does that make sense?

And Cherubino, I would like to correspond with you, but let's start a new thread, I don't want to get confused between the 2 of you, or threadjack Jaysmom. I'll post a new thread to you.

Thanks,
MSA

MSA...

You are so right. and God has brought me to this point of feeling i believe. I think that I myself have to feel as though i don't really care before he can truly think he has lost everything.

the other night when he hung up on me...he knew...i have taken all that i can take. that is why he called at 4:45 in the morning to apologize. there i said i am almost to the end of my rope and he said..."i know you are" since then i have not said much about anything. i speak to him about our son. and on a couple of occassions i have commented about things, but mainly need to things. Very firm and letting him know...i won't do it any longer. that is why he spent time with us last night and wants to again.

Hanging in there. i will be fine which ever way the road goes. God's will is for him to be with us and not what he is doing. I pray for God's will. But i also pray for what is best for me and jay.

Another thing, can you set the phone to auto-answer w/o ringing in the night? Good grief, just because he's up at all hours in complete chaos doesn't mean you need to be! After all, you have a child to care for during the day, and just when you are finally maybe getting some good sleep, his tornado comes waltzing in at 4:45am to TALK and apologize? Apologies can wait until the sun is UP!!!

Just my thoughts. Seems at a glance very self-centered of him, to call you in the middle of the night. My WH used to wake me up out of a sound sleep to self-righteously announce, "You're right. I lied. I did have sex with her again." to which I would roll over, look at him, and go, "Oh, I know. That sucks. Good night." Good grief.

MSA

Msa,

Today i am a little discouraged, but i think its mostly PMS. anyway i told H last night that he had to end it VERY SOON, and there had to be NC at all with OW. he didn't respond. i told him i was sick of this mess and the lying, especially to our son. ( who he lied to yesterday, and jay cried all afternoon because he told him he could see him )

He listened to me again, and then came to the house afterward, talking to me about work, etc. i was nice, but didn't really talk to him much. Not like i normally would.

he didn't call this morning, maybe that is why i am discouraged some. today is his really hectic day though. but i have decided that i am only going to give him a while longer...few days maybe a week, and then... his world will have to crash.

i am tired of this...God doesn't expect me to sit and be used and hurt like this...he is still telling me to wait, but i don't think it will be much longer. it will be hard to do complete NC but at this point, i could just not answer my phone a couple of days and he will be in panic mode. He is pretty much to that point.

You know what i think the biggest problem is right now...His pride. its bigger than life. He doesn't want to have to lose face. he doesn't want anyone knowing, especially his mom, friends. I believe he wants it over...but his pride is keeping him from breaking it off with her, she will see who HE REALLY IS, then he will have to face his mom, she will know...his best friend, my family will know....and then most importantly I WILL KNOW. he isn't there yet and it may take, as you said, him thinking he has lost everything....before he does anything.

is that how he loses his pride? of course i know the A is an addiction, but he seems ready for that to be over...i really feel in my heart. any advice on the pride thing, or basically should i stick to what i am doing? jaysmom

I would say to, for Jay's sake, cover up for your WH. Not to ANYONE else (enabling) but just for Jay's sake. Make up some reason that your WH probably won't be able to come over or leave it open (even though WH made his visit sound certain), etc... I know some here might disagree, but he's only 3. The story doesn't need to be elaborate, just 3 year old terms, "Dad got busy, he wants to see you but he can't today. We'll call him pretty soon when he gets back." Whatever... I hate to see kids affected by the fog, it's just too painful, and they have no way to understand. Don't ever speak negatively or in frustration to your son about your WH. He'll thank you for it later (your H and Jay).

God doesn't expect you to live like this. Just follow that message of patience and waiting. Rather than not answer your phone, if it's time I would recommend a full-on Plan B, which is to say, write him the Plan B letter and TELL him not to call or contact you. Just not answering your phone makes him worry where you are - he needs to understand this isn't a game of "I want to get some control by not talking to you right now, try back later." This ties in to pride as well, your question.

Recovery of A is an addiction, and to get to the place where your WH needs to be in, he needs to be broken. He needs to surrender his own will in favor of God's will for his life. He needs to have a spirit of brokenness and humilty, remorse and repentance. This is the opposite of pride. Look up pride in your Bible concordance or at http://wwww.gospelcom.net and you will find useful passages about pride. Proverbs in particular, as I'm sure you know! It may be time for Plan B, how long have you been in Plan A, 2 months? A true plan A? Usually Plan A is 3-6 months, and it often does NOT work, which is to say Plan B is often necessary. Refresh your reading on Plan A & Plan B, and pray over it.

MSA

well..MSA...

my H is getting more on my nerves by the second. But a good get on my nerves. He is calling and coming by and really acting differently. Not mushy or anything.

He hates when i act finished with him, or refer to us not being together. changes the subject, etc.

He is trying to come home, i can sense it.

Is it normal to start feeling as if God may have left me? Even though i know he hasn't it just feels like he is further away. I keep on praying, reading, etc.... at times i almost feel as though i am being tried over and over by different things...by satan to see if my faith will waiver. but i keep on, keeping on. My friend told me it was normal, that God was still working on my H and that it only felt like that, just to keep in His word.

I know that my H is under alot of conviction. He never minded going to church, in fact he holds our pastor so high and respects him so much that it is odd to me what he said today...jay asked him about going to church sunday and he replied "i work on sunday's i can't" "i just don't get done in time" this has never been the reaction of my H. yes, there have been times work wasn't finished in time but he seemed resentful about it. I guess that is normal, for him in his situation.

Maybe its the pride thing. its bigger than life. but he is worrying he is losing me. he is beginning to really get scarred i don't feel the same. so obvious. I just keep it up...because...i feel it. if he doesn't come back to me broken, and admitting his A, begging, pleading...then i don't want him. Gosh that feels good. please pray that he will listen to God. how miserable he will be if he doesn't.

hope you are well. the patients are calling...i must go!! speak with you soon! jaysmom

As to your feelings about GOd, I think what you're feeling is normal, and I think your response is good.

As to your analysis of your H's behavior, I think your'e right on.

Have you exposed?

Yes I agree, feeling that God has left you at times is normal. He hasn't, and you know that. At the times I felt that it was helpful for me to read that recognizing God's existence was important, we don't FEEL it all the time. You will be tried over & over by satan to see if your faith will waiver. Satan would love for this experience to cause disillusionment and questioning of God. But as you see already, the way God carries us through these trials reaffirms His existence for us at these times, not the other way around as a rule. That isn't to say there aren't moments. I just couldn't understand what God was doing at the point I filed for D, but I just trusted that there was a bigger picture I wasn't privy to.

You are doing good with your H, just continue not to make reassuring statements to him. In fact, leave him wondering by saying very little at all. I LOVE LOVE LOVE your last sentences about if he doesn't come back broken you don't want him! Perfect, well done. And it DOES feel good, doesn't it. It's called taking your power back, regaining control, centering the shifting loads. You are doing a good job.

MSA

Today...today...hmmm how do i feel today? well guys i am curious. Last pm when i picked up my son from Hubby, he came running out on the porch..."i got you something today" i looked behind me in question if he were actually talking to me..and asked ME?

he was so much like my wonderful, good, charming H. he said well of course. he came out with a Christmas snowman. I collect them. he said he got it for me and jay ( it was a new one i saw on Saturday and i mentioned it to him...something he and i started collecting a long time ago..together) i just said...oh jay look what daddy got you...(still thinking i know he did not just say he got that for me too) and he quickly corrected me in saying...i didn't just get it for him, it was for you too.

what does this mean? He really has taken a huge turn the past few weeks but the last few days have just stunned me. I thanked him, but kept to my firmness, i was kind, loving, but firm.

i still believe he thinks he can just come on home in a few without ever admitting to anything. I think he thinks he can just decide he will come home, trying to keep his upper hand about things, but then when he see's how i am responding to him...he is starting to think...hmmm...she just doesn't care to much for me...wait a min. i can't possibly tell her and everyone what kind of a man i am. but maybe i am going to have to.

He came down to the house later yesterday evening. stayed a while, i just appeared busy and didn't pay much attention to him. He is still in contact with her ...my gut tells me...but...worrying about me and jay alot.

in answer to Jaye... I have tried to expose. as much as possible. the people who know...a few guys from his work...which he denies it to. his mom, which he denies, his best friend which denies...and me which he denies. i don't really know if she told me her correct name, where she works...all i have is a cell number. so if she's married..she said she was...i have nothing. Just prayers and God guiding me. I gave it to him told him if it were to be exposed anymore..her husband etc. he would have to do it.

any suggestions on why my H is acting this way now?

You really should expose to OWH. Or maybe someday he will expose to you.

At any rate, my take on your WH is the same as yours. He's torn. He has stopped thinking badly of you, that's good. But as you know, until he is willing to admit, take responsibility, be honest, etc I would just act loving, firm, but very unimpressed by his behavior. Nonchalant. Unmoved.

MSA

MSA,

God has really started changing me. My sister just told me she can't believe how much i have changed in just 2 weeks. She said you just glow. You are showing you are not going to stand for his crap. that you love him and you have given him every chance to do the right thing...but enough is enough.

I am moving towards a Plan B. Not a total as it is hard due to jake, and the fact that we are..* neighbors* i feel i am doing as God wants...being VERY firm now. i told him, he can't just keep coming by the house giving jay false hope that he might be coming home....and some other issues i have been bothered about. I told him i didn't want to talk to him anymore (it was a long conversation between the 2 of us which boiled down to him wanting to come home, although he didn't say that...but not wanting to admit anything.) I just can't live that way.

i need him to be broken and the man i used to love not this man he has become, he can't live with the guilt and i can't live without the truth.

so anyway, i have not talked to him since that conversation. I hung up on him because he started being a butt...and the last words i said was i can't live this way, i don't deserve to, and that i just did not want to speak with him again. HE called me back 2 hours later, i didn't answer. HE called this am. I let jacob answer and talk then i hung the phone up.

I plan on sticking to it. i have to...it's that time...God is telling me TOUGH...love must be...He needs me to be now. Pray for me...i am getting bitter with him. Maybe that is what God is having me feel to carry through with what He needs me to.

I am praying that God will break down H's pride and bring him to repent.

Hope you are well!

Jaysmom, I am well, thank you!
You have hit this right on the head, I can tell God is with you every step. You keep up the good work, you are doing the best thing for your family even if it feels like things are on the verge of breaking apart forever. I can see you really "get" what has to happen here - you can do this, and you & Jay will be okay no matter WHAT happens. I really have a good feeling about this turning around though. Just remember the conditions, and that you will NEVER have more power to enforce them then when he is first "broken" - and without them the risk of relapse is great. You've been down this road before, and I'm sure you don't want to go down it again, so make sure as much as you can that he "gets it" and agrees to counseling, etc when he does come begging. Have your list ready.

You are in my prayers,

MSA

it's monday...yuck...but it is a short week!!!

well my not talking lasted until 6:30 saturday morning. He had lasted as long as he could. and i could cut the ringer off, but i have a step-dad in active duty Army, mother alone, brother in college, and i am just too afraid of what "could" happen and not get the call. anyway, of course i was sleeping very soundly and jumped and answered.

his first question was "what time did you all get home last night?" i said...late. what did you do? stuff. just back and forth.

i again was firm and told him i have had enough. He is definitly different towards me now as i have said before, and not going as much, but still going at times...like saturday, but only a couple of hours gone. He lied to jacob and told me he was coming by before we left to go out saturday....but did not. this is where i am getting confused again somewhat.

He has really been doing better, better with me, and jay. not going out, coming by, not lying as much (as far as i know) and i really felt and still do feel a turn around coming. but he lied to jay and that hurt him so badly. He called that evening and apologized and again...i let him have it...THIS IS MY BABY! he lied to my son for the last time and i told him that. He is setting a terrible example, and has totally killed the trust in my son. He knows this and is very aware, yet its like he can't help himself.

i wish i could explain, maybe you can explain it to me. i can tell he is miserable. I can tell he now wants to come home, i can tell he misses me and he misses his life, his family...but something about this is keeping him away. Maybe pride, i just don't know...i honestly don't think he is that thrilled with her anymore, but yet there is still a her. Is it because he doesn't want to hurt her? or that she will know he doesn't care for her? what is the hold. i know it is an addiction, but once he gets to the point that he doesn't want it anymore and he has seen what he doesn't want to LOSE, why is it so hard...and am i just being to impatient...does it just take time from here? or does it take the...oh my gosh..she's gone i have lost everything?

any thing you can give me on this will be helpful. I still feel God keeping me put for now and i am praying to continue following in his will, not mine. But honestly...i feel somewhat in limbo. i know things are better, but i am getting really fed up too.

but then again..it is monday.

I asked my expert FWH for his take on it... he thinks and I agree that it differs from situation to situation - depends what you've said, how you've been, what he's thinking, how OW is acting, what friends & family are saying to him and how they portray his actions, if he's Christian and supported by Christians... it just depends. Hopefully the following words by Dr. Harley are helpful/hopeful...?


"But, remarkably, most affairs do not lead to divorce."

MSA

Mrs. Stow...hows it going? Just a little note to you and a special thank you...you have no idea how much comfort i get just from your advice. Really gets me through some tough days!

i think he is going backwards a bit. he has started going out again. Not as much but...i knew in my heart he wasn't finished with her. But he is different...he said something too...that struck me. the other day before he left, he lied about where he was going (intuition tells me) but i just brushed it off and he said..."do i look like i am happy about it?" and really ...no he is not. He has been really, really sad and his whole attitude has changed.

He seems miserable. just totally miserable away from us. But yet he is gone. He can't stand me talking about us being over. but i do...because...well 3 months now have gone by him living in his fantasy and reality is...it is over if he doesn't wake up. He is living with his mom, doing everything for him, her living in her own fog about what is going on. Not wanting to make him upset...(i am growing very bitter towards her and how she is allowing him to live under her roof and cater to his every need, all the while he is cheating on his wife and her grandson) she will say..oh we don't have any proof he is...i just think he is depressed.

GAG!!! i have prayed that God will reveal this if it is his WILL to reveal. I have tried and come up empty handed every time. i believe God doesn't want me to see him with her for what ever reason...to this point anyway.

He just about died because he thought i wasn't having Thanksgiving dinner with him and his mom. I said why should i? but i will for Jacobs sake.

i continue to be firm..that is what God wants. I speak alot about moving on. I hope that is okay? I talk about me and jacob not living "next door" forever. I generally speak to him alot about it being over do you think i shouldn't. I probably should just not say anything but sometimes i think...he needs to hear it. something has to get him out of his fantasy into reality. He honestly doesn't have any friends. No one that he speaks to regular. and just has his mom. family wise. oh well..any advise. should i just stop talking to him...i mean just be short with him, kind but short? God is working on him but i still feel in limbo somewhat...i think what i say is doing good...but i'm just getting impatient.

Jaysmom, I think you are doing well. As far as should you speak about moving on? I did. I didn't make stuff up, but as things seemed relevant I did talk about them. I don't know what affect it had. If I thought it was going to be our last Christmas together as a family, or I was thinking about selling the house (that HE said I could afford, but I couldn't have) and buying a little condo, or whatever my plans were I did share them.

One night I remember having a pretty long talk with him where I revealed that it had become clear to me that I needed someone I could rely on. Not just now, but forever. I became bitter about "What if I get cancer? What if I get in a car accident? What if one of my parents suddenly dies? What if I lose my job? What if...?" I was on my own, mowing my own lawn, taking out the trash, getting the kids to school & activities & church & to bed at night, no one was there to help me. I started to feel sorry for myself, and defensive. Then I decided that was not an okay way to live, and decided that I DESERVED to have a mate that I could count on for support, to take care of me if I needed it. I realized that my husband wasn't that person at that time. I was watching Dana Reeve (Christopher Reeve's wife) on Oprah one day talking about how she took care of him, and I realized that I deserved someone who would do that for me if I ever needed it, because I could commit to someone else that I would do it for them. I don't know how that affected him, but it was a pivotal night for me realizing that I didn't plan to stay married to him, or stay a single mom for long.

Having Thanksgiving with him & his Mom for your son's sake is understandable. Ugh. What about Christmas? Same thing? Too soon to tell.

I am also upset with your WH's mother for supporting his adultery and being in denial about it. Oh well. My H's mom met OW, for what it's worth. Didn't like her, but supported H all the while. That's what Moms do I guess. Unconditional love.

You know, as far as him being unhappy with OW... I took such comfort when my WH called OW "human crazy glue" - I actually thought that meant he was realizing how she was and losing his feelings for her. Not so. That was in the midst of the worst of the affair. Weird that he vented to me about OW being annoying, as if I was some kind of impartial friend or something. So strange. She didn't like him spending time with me or anyone else who didn't support their adultery. And most people didn't. Very tight leash. He complained about it, but did everything she said it seemed to me, from not attending concerts where we had purchased tix in advance to not calling or coming over or inviting me to his apt... she only supported him seeing the kids because he would have held it against her if she didn't.

Well, don't get too impatient, I have a good feeling that the holidays will be rough on him. Are there good holidays to fall back on, memories he can languish about being gone forever, Jake waking up and him not being there Christmas morning, things like that? At some point it's good to wax philosophical about how someday you'll find someone new, though the pain right now makes that hard to believe, but you are starting to gain confidence that you will move on...

MSA

MSA,

i am feeling so different towards him. I am growing angrier every day. Is this normal? It has been building up in me, but today...i could care less if he never comes home. I almost feel like i hope he stays with her so he can be miserable and i can have a better life.

down deep i know i still love him very much and want him. but i almost feel like I am in a fog now. this is normal right? pray for me that i won't kill him and the mom in law tomorrow.

It is normal. It is the natural effect of massive amounts of withdrawls being made from your love bank, and NO deposits. Just as lots of deposits trigger the feeling of being in love (yes, with OW too), lots of withdrawls trigger feelings of anger and hate.

I will pray for you for tomorrow, how long do you have to stay?

MSA

Happy Turkey Day!

this day has been eventful. I made it through the lunch with my head held high, my heart in one piece and my WH with his head bowed and miserable.

Lovely day! Oh MSA...i feel good. God has been so good to me, to Jacob, to H. Even though he is not in God's will, look how merciful he has been, keeping me there, holding on, giving H every chance to repent and make things right.

We had a very LONG talk on the phone this morning before i went up there for lunch. Well actually i had a long talk to him. I can't even remember all that i said, but it was from God, from my heart, everything God wanted him to hear. He listened. Never said a word, except yeagh, or "i don't know" but his replies are different than before. They are heartfelt, most of them. He goes from telling me he's not coming home, to i don't know if i am, to not answering all in the same conversation. Mainly he says "i don't know."

Not that i have been asking "are you ever coming home" it's not like that...i ask him what i feel God impresses upon me to ask...and it is always a very firm...FIRM question or comment. I have moved now to just really laying down the law.

But today...i feel God is saying after this morning, pull back. Cut down the communication some, cut off what you can. God is working, but also God i believe is hurting over H not responding to HIM.

Yes you are right. the holidays may be what brings his A to an end, and bring him home. Maybe? Maybe he never will. Maybe i will move on before he ever realizes he had a wonderful wife, son, and that his family was the most precious gift God could've ever given him. God only knows the outcome. My faith and trust still in HIM.

My H always loved, loved, loved getting the tree. We always get the tree the day after Thanksgiving. He of course just thought he could. I made it very clear today, that wasn't happening. I asked him if he planned on getting us one even after i remarry? He got mad, but didn't want to give in to anything...like committing to coming home to his family....so he just said...fine okay. but it is bothering him. Something as simple as getting the tree.

Imagine what Christmas morning will be like for him. I also have made that clear. NOT coming to stay the night. NO way! Too hard on Jay. Too hard on me. Live with your choices Mr. He knows what he should do and yet still doesn't do it.

He is still involved. He did finally admit to the viagra. But said that he wasn't using them for her, because "there isn't a her" "who" that is what he answers every time. He didn't directly admit, but did. he said they were for him. HA!!!! laughed at that one for hours...still laughing.

His denial of OW just kills me. But i have done everything i could, even follow to prove, everytime i lose him...but he doesn't know i am following. I can't afford a PI. so i give it to God. Let HIM reveal it, because i haven't been able to. Maybe your right. Maybe i feel he is growing tired all the while he may be in deeper and deeper.

Well...time to go eat again. this time with my family. Step-dad home from active duty. lil' bro. in from college and a big ol' turkey.

hope you and your family enjoy your day. I have really enjoyed mine. He really has been miserable today. I am glad. He is finally seeing what life will be like without us and he doesn't much like it. God is working. God is good ALL THE TIME! Take care!!!

Happy Thanksgiving, Jaysmom. Good job. You keep up the good work. Sounds like a good, productive day. God will take care of you through all of this, just as He has been so far.


MSA

MSA,

Hope you've had a good holiday weekend. Mine as you know started out good, but hasn't ended as well as i would like.

For 2 weeks (prior to this one) My H was soo close to what i thought was a change. He had changed, he was doing more for me, wanting to be with me, our son. Wanting to be home. Wasn't going out, hardly at all. then something happened. Last weekend, as i have said earlier this week, he started going out alot again.

This time, staying out alot. Alot. Last night he didn't come home. Calling his mother, using the excuse that i told him to find somewhere else to live. She calls me in a huff...because as you know she is living in his fantasy world of "what girl" "who" "what other cell phone" i even caught her in a lie. she lied for him covering up him on the phone. If she will lie about that what else has she lied about? even though...she hugs me and tells me she is "on my side" she cares nothing for her grandson, i feel, allowing her son to do this...but it isn't her fault.

she told him in the beginning, when he moved in, if there was OW, she would not condone his activities and she had no respect for a woman who would do such. NO RESPECT for OW. nothing about him. she cries and says...'i can't tell him to leave...he will go live in the slums..." i told her yesterday...she didn't much care if her grandson did...because that is where we will be if he doesn't straighten up. She also said he was doing good until you started talking to him "harshly" this week. No he started doing better when i started telling him to respect me and he would lose me...(this coming from a woman who was cheated on herself by her alcoholic husband and never even confronted him about it...the OW called and told her...she pretended it wasn't happening...let it go on...who knows how long)

Ill...can you tell? He of course called early am. Guilt killing him. but yet...he is still doing this. He even asked me this morning to ask Jake why he loved him...i said you want me to ask your 3 year old son why he loves you? (he was choked up) my friend thinks he was directing that question at me...but pride wouldn't allow him to ask me...but in answering i did so by me and jacob. i told him we both loved him because we knew the man he really was. that the real man he is, is the most wonderful man that i have ever known. That the real man told me with clenched teeth and tears in his eyes...that he had to live with what he did to me 5 years ago every day, and that i would never know the hurt he felt over it, and that he would never do anything to hurt me or jacob. i said that is who we love, not this man who is pretending to be 18, wearing his 18 year old clothes, living this life he has created for himself with no responsibilites...i said that isn't you.

so i guess...you were right on the money. me thinking it might be coming to an end...only proved to be...it at it's possible strongest. i have spent countless hours in prayer. so has jacob and he has really been struggling lately...even making up stuff about him being at home etc. why doesn't it affect my H? he really seems hurt but not enough to spend time with jacob. not enough to stop.

sorry this is so long. i have just had a day. He seems really sad over everything...but i am growing tired of his guilt...afterward. He isn't at all happy...so why continue on? i am growing weary. I am just not feeling much at all of anything today. My family is pressuring me to get legal seperation papers, but i don't feel lead to do so. I have prayed about this and i don't feel like God is leading me there yet. I don't feel as though i should pay for something i never wanted...but they are worried he will stop paying the bills, which i can understand, they never would have believed he would do this. (they did not know about before, until now), they worry for me and jacob.

i feel as though i am at a crossroad, not knowing which path to take. I know God will never leave me or forsake me, but i don't know His will right now, i feel as though i should just sit back......not talk about anything, except our son, just stay put, semi-ignoring him...(although...i never call him, he calls me), until i know in my heart what God is telling me, please pray i will be patient and wait on God. 2 weeks ago, he called me at 4:30 am, telling me he knew i was at the end of my rope. He was sincere. He knew he wanted to come home sometime, and he was definitely scared of losing me...so what happened this week? He has been afraid of losing me, but yet he's not, which is so confusing to me.

Any advice on where/what to do from here? I am going to sit tight and let God work, but any advice on how i should act/respond when i do have to be around him?

Maybe things will be better soon...especially for Jay.

Hmmm... well it's not like you haven't told him to make a choice, he isn't living home afterall. How to bring things to a head... probably not something you want to do during the holidays anyway. If only he would admit to OW, so you or someone knew what he is thinking about that relationship... frustrating that he denies. I think it's probably because he is just to weak to decide, and is afraid if he admits it you will file for divorce. Perhaps at some point you will want to write him a letter with your conditions to continue on with the marriage (as we discussed pages ago), so that he knows that you won't divorce him, but these are the conditions. Call if/when you are prepared to meet them. If not, my patience will eventually run out. Just a thought?

That way, he has it in writing to consider, and he knows exactly what he must do, if/when he wants to save his marriage. I know he isn't asking to come home, but perhaps it could be delivered in a very "I know you aren't saying you want to be together or divorce, but clearly you are concerned that I am 'at the end of my rope'... I thought I would clarify MY end of the deal for you. I understand you may choose not to agree to these conditions; you make your decision, I'll make mine."

??? Then you wouldn't need to be concerned with how you are communicating when you see him; you'll know you already said your piece.

Something to pray about.

MSA

oh my gosh MSA...

well i am so happy. so very happy. my best friend should work for the FBI.

I don't understand God's timing, but i know his time is the best. For whatever reason she had called all of the stores my H works except 1, from the get go. she has called stores he didn't work, asking for this girl and the name she gave, all but the one. I always had that store in the back of my mind but never ever thought of it for what ever reason...God's reasoning..i know.

Very long story short. He ended up getting us the tree. Now i know what everyone would think...i caved...no i did not...I am flat broke and cannot afford a tree this week. My next check is not until next week and i am praying God will get me through...He will. He was very upset for my son. Called me early Sunday (of course he had laid out all night you know, guilt setting in, scared, and called to feel me out.) He even got choked up...about our son...but not enough to change. anyway we went together yesterday to get it. I had prayed all day...feeling that God did not want me to say much of anything.

I did have a card that i bought several weeks ago and i felt impressed to write in it and give it to him. I prayed and asked God to give me the words to say...much to what you suggested but started out with...Yesterday you asked me to ask jay why he loved you...enclosed is a couple of pictures and reasons why...blah blah.

very long story trying to get short...sorry. anyway...the evening went well, he had supper at home, he was fine. put the tree up for us and Jacob went to get the very keepsake, loved ornaments that i keep in the house not in our storage. I got them out last week when i put jays stoking up etc. in the box contained our 1st christmas ornaments, 2 or 3 from 1995. Very special. I know they were there because jacob got them out the day i found them, i put them back in the box and set them in my closet floor. When jay brought them out yesterday they were gone. H had took them. He of course lied, but why would he have. that is the craziest. I know he did and he tried to blame jay. I don't understand and i was very upset telling him i wanted to keep them for jay. He said oh they will turn up...sure they will...they better today. anyway i know that is really insignificant, but i knew God was telling me something bigger. My BF called after he left and i was telling her about it. She said, weird. we just really need to find the OW. she then started to call a store he worked and i said, you've already called it all but the one. she called and asked for OW. they replied, sorry she is already done for the day.

Today BF went by, gave false name, ordered something from her, got real last name, i found out she is wealthy somewhat so my instinct on her buying clothes etc...was right on i think.. married, got husbands name from phone book (they were listed together) she has 2 children. so anyway...i am happy. God is working. Now i am unsure what to do. i must get physical proof first i think, don't know if her H will believe if i don't have it. but what do you think. I have finally gotten something. Now it can no longer hide. She isn't planning on leaving her H, why would she leave money, for a man getting ready to file bankruptcy. so what is the hold. BF said she is in her early 40's, almost 10 years older than H. any advice...gotta run before i get the axe! keep praying...God is moving.

That is good news about the OW (finding her). Yes, you need to be SURE. Do NOT do ANYTHING to tip her off, or your WH.

You will need to be looking for some proof (can BF follow, or something to even SEE him going to lunch with her, or after work?) as you know. You don't want to call OWH with false information of course, either.

BUT do NOT confront your H or OW. You want your first calls to be to OWH and your mother-in-law (with proof) and your H's Human Resource dept and their boss if applicable (his boss and/or OW's boss). You want to do all of this exposure as close together as possible.

I'm glad you have a good BF. Invaluable going thru this crisis. Good for her!

A question to Mrs STOWaway's mentioning that this should be exposed to the H's HR department and boss, isn't that a major LB? That would push my WH straight to his lawyer. ?? Just curious.

MSA,

well...you should know the ornaments turned up last night. H came down to help us get the Christmas stuff out of storage, he helped with lights and things some and like a *miracle* (HA) they appeared in a box he brought in. (although i have questioned my sanity some, that COULD THEY have really been in there, but..i was sooo sure they were not)

why take the ornaments? strange...anyway...they are unharmed and back at home HA! Well BF and I are going to do some snooping around this evening. See what we can see. I don't think we will find anything since he will be getting Jake from preschool. He doesn't take him out with him. But we might find something of use.

This whole situation has been so puzzling. No one can make anything of it. He never admits to her, now i see why...SHE doesn't want to be found out. Maybe he would if SHE would leave her H. Maybe that is the hold. Maybe that is why he is still so attached. He has left me, he has her at times but maybe the attraction is seeing if she will leave her H for him. Maybe it's her money. Maybe he feels obligated to stay since she has bought things for him. I don't know. I do know that up unitl a few days ago he was always afraid of losing me.

You know calling all hours, apologizing, worrying about where we had been, but yet nothing stopped him from continuing what he was doing...but in the last few days...he hasn't called me in the morning like he had been. of course we have seen each other every day, but he seems so withdrawn. don't get it. i can't explain. He doesn't when we are together, he seems almost the same, joking at times with me, fixing things, sad sometimes, it's not the same as before when he seemed like he couldn't stand me. but the calls have stopped (of course its only been 3 days but...)

Maybe i am being paranoid. Its not over with OW, and she must be pulling him or something. But i am just so stumped with his draw towards her. BF said when she first saw her she could NOT believe that was the OW. she said she was nothing to look at. Now not to say i am a beauty, but my BF was in such shock! she said she had bags under her eyes, about 5-10 years older. nothing what she expected to see him leave me for.

any clue what the draw to her is? its funny, pages back you gave me the thing on romantic infidelity...and in it it said they pick people sometimes decades older or younger..someone nothing they would expect. He is very unhappy....so why doesn't he straighten up? He misses his family, misses me (or at least until 3 days ago did) misses jay, but won't stop.

I do believe God will end this soon. I do believe HE will give me something very powerful, or H will sense that God is telling me to leave or let go...something will happen soon. My son keeps saying "daddy's coming home soon" I hope so. i truly hope so....i pray i can...let things go and believe in H again.

I really don't want to tell OWH. Even though i did nothing wrong and she did not care in the least to break apart our family and hurt me and my DS, i pray for her, and her family...this is her 2nd time around with a child from her first and one from the 2nd...i don't want her H to suffer what i have...or her children, but i will do what God leads me to.

Keep praying...and send any advice you can...any take on why he is still w/her. she isn't going to leave her H for him...she wouldn't...my H has nothing NOTHING to give her.

God is so good!!! speak to you soon JAYSMOM

Sadinthecity,
Although I did NOT expose to my H's boss and HR dept and OWH, I wish I had.

I give this advice because it is MB advice, and MelodyLane (experienced poster on GQII) swears this is the way to go, that exposure often kills affairs. It is the proper MB thing to do apparently, but I didn't know that when I was going thru it.

Will it push WH to the lawyer? Maybe. Most likely it sounds like it really makes them mad. And for good reason, affairs love to have secrecy, and exposure destroys that. How dare anyone ruin the romance of a torrid, elicit affair?

You could post to MelodyLane on GQII for more info... I'm not the exposure expert, just repeating some good advice I wish I had known about back then.

Hope that helps,
MSA

MSA,

just a quick note. I have some more info. I saw OWH, not in person, just in researching, and he is NOT anything to write home about, poor thing. But oh my gosh...he is LOADED.

OW is NOT, repeat, NOT attractive. Now i am no barbie...and i am not tooting my own horn or anything, but let me put it straight....if i were going to leave my wife of 10 years who IS attractive, and a happy marriage, my wonderful son...i definitly would want a trophy out of it...SHE'S NO TROPHY...not at all. She's old, wears braces...obviously going through a mid life crisis...my H is HER trophy...except he is broke...and her H is well...loaded.

I still have no physical proof and i am still waiting on God to tell me what to do...but i have told him a few thing...just keep praying for me....any advice????


please...what is he doing....what is the attraction? why is he still doing it? for the money...thats my guess...for what she is telling him? she won't leave her H will she? not with him being so wealthy...HE is the one who is making the money. My H is looking at bankruptcy.

Help! what should i do? JAYSMOM

Jaysmom,
First off, are you SURE it's her? Are you just going by the name being the same and the fact that she works at one of the stores? Do you have ANY more evidence that this is the OW for sure? I know there IS an OW, but is this certainly her?

As far as her appearance, the OW in my sitch was not at all pretty. Relatively unattractive I would say, with an atrocious personality and NO girlfriends at all. You know, it's ALL about how OW makes your H feel. She must make him FEEL like the greatest thing... perhaps being less than attractive herself, she just thinks he is the bee's knees. And she tells him. I know the OW in our sitch was extremely complimentary to my H, about his looks, his intelligence, really made him feel good about himself. He said that he was highly susceptible to it and it was very addicting and attractive. She herself also had plenty of money, whereas we have lots of money and lots of bills! She didn't have the bills, just the money. Fun trips, expensive gifts. At one point when she took him to the Bahamas on a cruise I asked him if he felt like a gigilo. He said no, but...

I don't think OW will leave her H. I think your concern for their family is from the heart, but I think it is a mistake to think that her H being kept in the dark is good for their family. Expose, and let them iron out their own problems for better or worse. It is the TRUTH. (well, make sure it is first!). Her H has a right to know the TRUTH. Would you want to be told if the sitch were reversed?

In a situation I am aware of where OWH called OMW and exposed, both marriages are now hopefully seeming to be on the mend... at least the A is over and they are trying. Exposure ended the affair in fast order when OMW found out.

He is still doing it because of how she makes him FEEL, the money doesn't hurt, but it's probably more about the addictive feelings of the affair. I doubt she will leave her H. True, he MAY leave her if he finds out (OWH). That would free her up for your H.

Pray about it. This is just my two cents...

One quote (can't remember who by) that got me through some rough times, "If a woman steals your man, the best revenge is to let her keep him." Not a Christian sentiment, but I hope it makes you smile anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSA

MSA,

yes...i am 99% sure. God keeps giving me more and more as the days go. Although i don't think i have enough to give OWH to convince him. I am afraid if i go with all i have physical (phone records) he will confront her and she will cover and nothing will change.

H is becoming paranoid right now. Yes i believe you are right about the attraction...it's what she is saying...she herself told me she was telling him "wow...you look sooo good" things like that.

we got into a heated discussion last night...HE KNOWS I KNOW now without doubts. He knew before i knew what he was doing...now he know i know who with. I didn't give any names, or specifics...i am smarter than that. I prayed before we talked and what came out was what God wanted me to tell him.

Now for the first time ever...he is faced with...what do i really, really do? before...he just thought he could keep up the two. weigh them out...i'll go w/OW if she leaves maybe...maybe i'll stay with W. Hmm...lets see how i feel today.

but now he is faced with...W knows who...i must end it with OW to keep W. to keep OWH from finding out. Reality.

all this time...i think down deep i knew...me leaving wasn't going to solve anything. It wasn't going to be the push he needed. He needed something to scare him...really scare him to reality. if i left...he knew...i would probably come back when/if he called. that wasn't what had to be done.

he has been afraid of losing me. you've been right from the start. CONFUSED!!!!

he has recently started lying to Jake again, promises broken, staying out alot again, not keeping him hardly at all. this started about 2 weeks ago, same time as when he stopped calling me, staying out again.

Last night i broke down in front of him...can't even tell you why, honestly. I cried and cried...then later...God told me...what i knew...my H has always been torn into when i cry. When i am strong and firm..works sometimes, but he gets very defensive. when i am broken...due to him, especially...he can't handle it. God needed him to see me broken...at his hands. He didn't handle it well at all. He had told me before our M was over due to money, now he isn't at all blaming me for the money...last night (before i started crying) he said he was tired of me...

i said tired of me...i have been tired of you plenty of times in 11 years but did not walk away...i asked him if he was tired of jay too? was that why he didn't want to be with him...He continued to get mad...then i broke down.

tore him up...as we in the south would say. HA! he followed me through the house. standing at the corner of the bed...speechless for a while. then told me he only told me he was tired of me because i was getting on him...he said it was out of anger.

i just simply told him before he left...that he knew what must be done. he knew it had to end. I asked him if he believed in God, he answered yes, then i said you know the bible better than most anyone i know...he said yes, i do...i said well... he didn't respond.

Haven't heard from him this morning. we will see what happens. Keep us in prayer. Things are drawing to an end...end of something...either our M, or the A. I will go to OWH. soon...so i know something will happen. Sad this time of year. I wait on God to advise me.

thank you for your words of encouragement...keep it coming..

jaysmom

Have you spoken to her about your WH before? When was this, I'm confused...? Do you KNOW her? Does she KNOW you?

Cell phone records are good, but not incriminating enough for OWH maybe, depends on the guy. My H wouldn't be too fond of finding my cell phone bill reflected hours of calls to a guy I never told him about, but I guess maybe she can get him to rationalize it if she tries. Depends on the guy, on his prior experiences and his ability to live with realities that don't coincide too well.

I think you are doing a good job. I had breakdowns in front of my WH. When I found out who OW was (I never would have guessed his boss in a billion trillion years), when I found out OW was pregnant, when I had to listen to him choose her over & over again, there were certainly times that I let my feelings show to him. Lots of the time I was numb. Often I was in a complete stupor over listening to him rationalize and sit on the fence about something that seemed so painfully obvious to me & others. I learned during those months that the human brain knows NO BOUNDS when it comes to rationalizing behavior. Helps explain things like the Holocaust. I don't mean that in even the slightest disrespectful way, I mean it sincerely. It is a similar mindset that just fogs over and blanks out reality, justifies the actions, avoids responsibility, won't stand up & do the right thing.

The thing I would warn you of again though is that it does little good to point that out to a WS I think. Your best defense is a good offense - exposure and the threat that you are going to one day wake up & have lost your patience and indeed your love for him.

I think in a way that pointing out the Biblical issues, and so forth, that that comes across to the WS as a disrespectful judgement. "Can't you see that you need to see things my way, you have it ALL WRONG." Know what I mean? I did a lot of it, but in hindsight that is not what saved our marriage. It was my actions, the result of his indecision, that finally brought things to a head. People were preaching at him left & right, I'm not sure it did that much good.

Me saying I would move on and I was gathering my self-respect and confidence, feeling that things would ultimately be okay, I can't take his indecision any longer, and I now feel that if I just give myself some time I will be happy again, with someone... THAT worked I think. I still don't know if FWH sees the degree that impacted him; but one could visibly see the cogs turning during the aftermath of those discussions.

You are doing a good job. Really, the exposure to OWH sounds like the next step - can you expose the A at their workplace to human resources or a mutual boss as well?

MSA

MSA,

yes i have spoken to OW. The day i found out he was talking to her on his cell, i called to get the last # dialed and called her. The day he left. She of course told me..."we are only friends...blah blah," then i got the cell records and their friendship was over 800 mins the month of August. I also spoke with her one other time...she of course lied...saying oh it's nothing like that we are friends only. Talked alot of her H. i guess she did that to cover. As far as OWH and the phone records, i just don't know if it is enough...this is a woman who is very spoiled by him, he is not an attractive man, God love him, and i feel it wouldn't be enough...given the way she is treated, he probably would believe anything she said, plus i don't feel God telling me to do it just yet...waiting on a little more. My BF goes out armed with her camera...she will catch them or die!!! HA!

the exposing to work...my H is a vendor...he works several stops...most everyone at his work, he hardly see's, they are very much independent. Most of the guys...suspect, a couple know...but he denies it to them. He would deny it if he were caught in the act with her i believe. sometimes i think...he doesn't believe he is. As far as her job...i don't know...i just don't feel right. She would possibly get fired and i just hate feeling like i was the cause, especially since i don't have much physical evidence...they have to know at her work as well...they at least suspect...it's gone on too long to not...of course, she is a MAJOR flirt, so maybe they don't.

she gave me a fake last name (her maiden). My BF has really done her detective work...she has found out everything for me. without my WH or OW ever knowing. This woman has actually been preying on my H for a while. He would say things about her to me, in the past, she works at one of his stops...but i know before there was nothing going on...i just remember that he spoke of her.

OWH is the money maker. Maybe she is promising my WH that she will leave and get him everything he ever desired. See we were so in the hole when all of this started...it all makes sense now. My H as i have said in past, suffers from severe depression, and has been off medication for about 3 years, doing well, until....life gets bad. He was down, and she was there to pick him up. We were struggling over the debt, not knowing what to do.

He needed an escape. Escape from reality. Escape from HIS life. Escape from the depression, but in turn he has created more problems, more depression and reality is still there waiting to be faced.

He is more miserable right now than he has been in the 3 months he has been gone, more miserable now than he was when he was only facing the debt problem not adding the A to it. He is totally miserable.

He has pulled away...away from me, and jay, but i believe it is a good thing. This time his misery, and his staying away i feel God is saying...he is dealing with it. He is finally getting closer to reality. I think things are hitting him very hard. VERY HARD. i can sense it, and read it on his face, in his voice. We still see each other daily, and talk daily...but not as much. We see each other more than we did when he was calling alot. Now i feel he was calling so much, to ease his mind.

Now he isn't calling as much, because he is ashamed. A portion of reality has crept in...and keeps coming...and he is having to deal with it.

I spoke with my pastors wife at church today and she has advised me to be tough. "make sure he knows you are not going to stand for what he is doing" Well...i thought i have been, but as you have said, you get so down sometimes, you don't know anything. I know what i have been doing is what God has lead me to do....i pray, continuously. He is answering and is dealing with my H.

Now i must ride the storm as you have also said. Right now i have much peace. Now, as you have said before, i need to just sit back and watch. He is in the eye of the storm. He knows...things must change, and they must change soon, or he will lose me. And it may take, losing me before he will change and at that point...????

i wish i had more to expose, but i wait on God. Since i have dropped a few hints lately, he has gotten more depressed. I think its because...he always knew i would be right there. I mean come on, we are not living together, but beside each other, still seeing each other everyday. Nothing has changed for him since he left. His wife and son, right there for him when he wants them, having his A on the side...without having to deal or decide anything. Nothing rocking his world. Nothing making him decide or face anything. NOTHING!! only me talking to him, trying to get him to....but all this time, he knew...i was right there. Until i am not, or things change (like me knowing who she is...) he doesn't have to do anything.

Please continue your prayer...i so appreciate it and your advice, you taking time to read my trillion pages...I am being faced now with some major decisions...Pray God will continue to show me, and guide me...

Jaysmom

Jaysmom, I think you have handled this all very similarly to the way I did. I didn't expose at WH's work, or to OWH, and things still worked out. BUT, I wish I could go back and do it over (well, you know what I mean, no one wants to relive it! but there are things I would change). Namely, exposing to OWH. In our case, OW told her H because she thought she was leaving him for my H. He called my H her "hobby." But if I had established regular contact with OWH it would have put an end to lots of lies that she told my H and their mutual boss.

Pray about exposing. I know you don't want to get anyone in trouble; you don't want OW to lose her job? You don't want her to have serious consequences from her actions? This isn't about revenge, it's about doing things that have the best chance of saving your family. Affairs don't survive well in the light of day. Or so I'm told by more experienced MBers. Of course, OWH finding out, giving an ultimatum to OW and her ending the A doesn't really fix your marriage. He still won't have examined how he got into an A (again) and HE won't have ended it. He can pine away for OW for who knows how long. You keep praying about it.

I hope the holidays are hard as heck on him. I know you want to do things for Jay like Thanksgiving all together, but maybe that is NOT the best reality check for your WH. Perhaps Christmas apart is what needs to happen to contribute to his wake-up call. Think about it and pray about it. I had to make decisions that my girls didn't always like or understand at the moment for the long-term prospects of our family, such as ask him to move out, hospitalize him, and file for divorce. Not easy things, but always done with the greater good in mind.

MSA

I totally agree. i am starting to just get run down and exhausted over this whole mess. He is just going back and forth between, real life and this A. I told him one day a while back...this fantasy will end...trust me honey...this IS real life and it is going to be a horrible wake up one day.

I am not sure what to do anymore, last week God was giving me so much but i feel like i have all of this information in my lap and don't know what to do with it. EVERYONE, my BF to all my other very good friends say the same as you...EXPOSE. Honestly i am not afraid...not afraid of her losing her job at all...in fact i am more willing to call her job, but i don't think it will do any good. thought about calling my H's also...again...they won't do anything. so what is the point? I feel like because nothing will happen to them...i will look like the crazy one.

as far as OWH...i think its not enough evidence. BF says its enough, do it. she said...look what she has done to you and jay. Look how she has turned your lives upside down for her selfish desires, she shouldn't be able to get away with it. she never intended on leaving her H, and i think my H always planned on eventually coming home.

I keep praying, but i feel lost again. i pray all the time. yes i wanted my H to end this A, because he knew he loved me and hated himself for what he is doing. Mentally though, i just don't know if he is capable. He still doesn't see jacob much at all. He was doing so good there for a while, makes me wonder if OW was on long vacation with her H or something...could be.

He has ran into 3 of my family members this weekend, one he just passed on the road and he didn't wave at him, freaked him out. the other 2 didn't speak (one is a teenager that wouldn't speak to me either out in public) but he is so paranoid. I asked him why it bothered him so bad, he said it didn't but i know it does.

He came down to the house last night, just showed up, bringing some groceries etc. (guilt i guess) stayed for a long time. we just talked like normal. i didn't say much at all. didn't say anything about us at all. he did some things around the house then left. called this morning, talking like normal again. this is just exhausting to me. i want to say just Pee or get off the pot. pardon the expression.

my BF just called...again...go to the OWH. she is so insisting. she has done alot of work...i just don't feel like i have enough. i feel like what would happen would be, she would get out of it some way and they would still be able to continue their fling.

He told me again the other night he was messed up in the head. hasn't said that in a LONG time. makes me think he is at least part of the time...thinking about things.

MSA...any advice on what to do? should i just bite the bullet with what i have and do it. I think well if the last name she gave me is her maiden...how many people would know that...? so maybe he would buy it then, with the phone records. who knows? i feel like there is something there so simple and in front of my face but i keep over looking it.

Keep me in your prayers...i do appreciate it....i'll let you know what i decide if anything. maybe just sit and watch for a while longer...his being so paranoid may really get to him...Jaysmom

I told my FWH that you didn't think you had enough evidence to go to OWH. His response? "You never know what's going on in their marriage, a call from Jaysmom could be the final piece to a big puzzle for him." So, there you have it... my H thinks it's likely that OWH has put enough clues together that this could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

And if nothing happens to them at work, at least they can't continue their adulterous affair in broad daylight, with the whole world acting like they're keeping it from you for your peace of mind. That made me mad, that no one in my H's office saw fit to tell me. Not that I knew them, but even an anonymous note WOULD have been nice to tip me off. I understand their position (the co-workers) but it makes me a little batty to think that everyone knew about it, thought I didn't, and figured we had a terrible disintegrating marriage anyway (which is what he implied to all his friends & family) - untrue! Our marriage was not perfect, but it was NOT falling apart before OW entered the picture either! We were and always have been best friends for 15 years almost, even in the worst of times in our relationship.

I think your WH is cake-eating completely, and hanging out trying to get a read on what you know and what you plan to do with the information.

Him sitting around your house getting his emotional need for companionship and conversation met by you while carrying on this A and abandoning his family makes me crazy. I can see why you are exhausted from it. Anyone would be. Talk about giving and getting NOTHING in return! You better not be pouring his coffee for him during these visits!!! Let me guess, in his favorite mug that you keep in the cupboard for when he comes over? I'm going insane, say it isn't so Jaysmom!!!!!

Pray pray pray, and listen to your wise friends!

MSA

Oh i needed that good laugh this morning...I PROMISE YOU!!!! he isn't getting anything from me when he comes over. i don't even get up when he comes in, don't change the TV, mostly ignore him. He's all trying to be GOOD H, and daddy. right.

Now i do talk to him, but i am still very firm. I don't act like nothing is wrong, and i don't pretend to be okay with him. But i know i must act and do something or he will keep eating his cake. He doesn't care that i am hurting or that jay is...but he wants to make sure we are still hanging in there so when he is finished he can run back home.

My BF said exactly what your H did. Trust me i have prayed and will continue. I don't know...i feel like there is something...something...or that i have all i need but the timing isn't quite right. I don't know, can't put my finger on it. Is it okay to go to OWH work...i don't know how else to reach him, for fear she will answer if i call at home. but then again, i don't feel God saying do it right now...but hey...doesn't mean he won't lead me to this afternoon.

My H is becoming very uneasy. VERY!!!!! he wanted to keep jay today, so i took him to h. did my usual "give mommy hugs...etc." told him goodbye...I was no different than usual this morning, but i had not been gone 5 mins. and H calls..."what are you doing? i said...driving...why?" i started laughing because when he called i was directly across from OWH's work. and said to H...why? do you think i might be doing something i shouldn't? He is paranoid. then he proceeded to be super sweet, wanting to come down and watch a movie with me and jay. YUCK!!!!

i had another...heart to heart. I know he hears me, i have said it before, but he doesn't act on it. He is never going to do what he should, until everything he has is gone. i did say to him this morning, don't you care that you lost your family? He didn't respond at all.

i don't know what i am going to do...maybe i will just drop by to see OWH today.. i will listen for God to guide me. He has answered so many prayers and has just lived for me so many days.

my heart is just shutting down for my H. I just don't know if i even want him anymore. truly. i want someone he used to be, that person doesn't exist anymore. i feel like too much time has passed, if my heart is hardening for him, isn't his turning from me too?

eventually reality hits right? does it? even if it is too late, and i don't care or want him anymore, he will wake up and see what he lost and just be sick right? Jay never deserved this. I didn't. But jacob especially. he still chooses this OW over spending time with him, will he ever see that? will he EVER get out of the fog. I have prayed for reality, i pray he is miserable with her, i pray she can't meet any needs he has, i pray CONSTANT.

will we ever see reality? or will he live in this fog forever? will he ever know the extent of our hurt and suffering? will he ever care? the man he use to be would, but the new person?

Oh, i am just going crazy. Please continue to pray for us. my faith weak at times. But i know God will get me through. He will take care of me and Jay.

Jaysmom

So? Did you expose? I see MelodyLane & believer and Orchid posted to you on GQII about it since 12/2/05. Do you know that you can click on your own name on the left of any thread, and click on "Show all user's posts" and see all your threads & posts? This works for any MBer user to search their posts.

So, did you go see OWH? Well???

MSA

No, i didn't go. i went by but i didn't stop. i prayed to whole way there and back but honestly did not feel God leading me to stop. i wasn't afraid. i just didn't feel right.

i didn't allow him to come down and watch the movie, instead he kept jay a little longer at his mom's and watched it with him. He continues to lie and try to cover up things. He brought up himself, something from 2 months ago. When i talked to the guy he worked with, long story, anyway, he tried to claim he was with him when i called, he wasn't...he was at his mothers. i know this isn't making much sense, but what it boils down to is he was still trying to lie about something that he got caught red handed in. He even went as far as to say we will call him then... i said be my guest...

i would love to hear what he has to say...he went got the phone, and i said call him...please...( i was thinking my H has really lost his ever loving mind, and i thought...hey call...this should be interesting conversation at work tomorrow...those guys would die!) anyway...he finally held his head down, acting sad and said no...i am not calling anyone..your right...basically to say...yes i lied.

what is up with him? what is up with that? we actually were not arguing, haven't done that in a while...it's honestly as if he is a child needed to be punished for his wrong, but yet not wanting to be caught. Oh i just don't know...i am going crazy!!!

Is this possibly some of his more mental issues? he did call the dr. yesterday. but he asked about his bill, he was honest and said to me, i was going to make an appointment, but didn't. I just asked why my bill was so much ( honestly he got a 500 bill, and can't pay it up front to be seen) he said they told him they would check on it and he said once i know what i have to do about that i will make the appt. i do believe him that much. His Dr. office makes you pay pretty much up front.

anyway...i honestly feel like i am trying to raise a teenager hooked on drugs or alcohol. But things could be worse. God is getting me through. He is pouring his grace on me or else i would be crazy!!!

I will let you know if i decide, if God leads me to tell soon. Keep us in prayer...I will go when God tells me to go, or maybe i won't have to...maybe OWH will find out soon himself.

Jaysmom

I liked these reminders from the GQII board...

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

http://www.divorcebusting.com./

Mrs. Stow...

hope your doing well today. Things are basically the same, except...Last night He FINALLY got to see our son showing (what i have told him and his mother for weeks) how he feels about the matter.

i have asked him to get the information of counseling for my son, who is struggling so with this situation. He never would, Last night Jacob started hitting himself in the head and really crying hard for his dad in front of him and my mother in law. God really has a way of using anyone, or anything.

H is very, very, VERY troubled and his mom said he has not been sleeping well at all. He told Jay he would go to church with us soon.

I am taking all of this as good, especially his misery!

Please keep praying i so appreciate!

Jaysmom

You know, God can use anything or anyone to turn a WS around, especially the children I think. You know for my FWH it was his dr. who told him of his own A, and ended up re-marrying his W later. Also, Jerry Springer show of all things - FWH saw some really low & trashy guy talking/justifying/rationalizing his affair with his OW, and he (FWH) realized, "I'm saying the same stupid [censored] about my wife and to my wife!" Realizing his adulterous behavior meant he was acting just like the guy on Jerry Springer did him in. At least that was one main thing. And my H doesn't even watch that junk as a rule, just happened to be flipping past it one day... just goes to show you...

You are in my prayers, as are Jay and your WH.

MSA

MSA,

Jerry Springer...wow! I guess he had to be at the point in his life, as well, to accept...he could've been that guy on Springer...God works ALL things good!

Well...this weekend has been a struggle mentally for me. I believe Satan is trying his best to see if i will fall. Praying is becoming so difficult, but i do it, and when i am finished i always feel God's grace on me for being faithful.

I am afraid to be hopeful, but last night my H came down to the house to visit Jacob for a while. Before he came, jay and I were out doing a few shopping things and he called...i just can't put up with his crap anymore (especially during pms). He started saying some mean things to me (of course only after i said something about OW, which he yes...still denies, but ...)I just hung up on him...anyway he had some time to think on what he had said, and came down. when he left...he left with both of his study bibles, and his study book.

again i am afraid to be hopeful..but he has been very different this week, especially after Jay threw his fit. He told me on friday he WAS calling his Dr. on Monday. i told him, i was tired of hearing that same song and dance...and he said very firmly, and strongly...different from all the other times....that he WAS calling.

we will see...but i did notice a much different attitude and have now for 2-3 days. I felt very lead this morning when he called to tell him i loved him, and did and he sounded as if he were choked up. He couldn't say anything much. I told him Jay is still praying for you everyday, he again just kind of mumbled uh-huh.

again..i am afraid to be hopeful, but his misery is much and is getting to him. He didn't have to take his bibles, but he did. He may never open them...but they will be there in case he does.

Thank you for your prayers and advice! I will keep you posted if there are any new turns...

Jaysmom

Jaysmom,
Our whole Sunday message today was on prayer, and when you are in so much pain you can't pray. Psalm 77. How God wants us to be honest with Him, how God knows our thoughts anyway, so asking him why things are the way they are, or has he abandoned us, or ceased to care... those are natural things to feel. Or in your situation as the days roll together with no major changes, requiring the patience of a lifetime, to feel like you don't have anything new to pray for.

[color:"green"] Psalm 77
For the director of music. For Jeduthun. Of Asaph. A psalm.
1 I cried out to God for help;
I cried out to God to hear me.
2 When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;
at night I stretched out untiring hands
and my soul refused to be comforted.

3 I remembered you, O God, and I groaned;
I mused, and my spirit grew faint.
Selah

4 You kept my eyes from closing;
I was too troubled to speak.

5 I thought about the former days,
the years of long ago;

6 I remembered my songs in the night.
My heart mused and my spirit inquired:

7 "Will the Lord reject forever?
Will he never show his favor again?

8 Has his unfailing love vanished forever?
Has his promise failed for all time?

9 Has God forgotten to be merciful?
Has he in anger withheld his compassion?"
Selah

10 Then I thought, "To this I will appeal:
the years of the right hand of the Most High."

11 I will remember the deeds of the LORD;
yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago.

12 I will meditate on all your works
and consider all your mighty deeds.

13 Your ways, O God, are holy.
What god is so great as our God?

14 You are the God who performs miracles;
you display your power among the peoples.

15 With your mighty arm you redeemed your people,
the descendants of Jacob and Joseph.
Selah

16 The waters saw you, O God,
the waters saw you and writhed;
the very depths were convulsed.

17 The clouds poured down water,
the skies resounded with thunder;
your arrows flashed back and forth.

18 Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind,
your lightning lit up the world;
the earth trembled and quaked.

19 Your path led through the sea,
your way through the mighty waters,
though your footprints were not seen.

20 You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
[/color]

Our pastor pointed out that in the first half of the Psalm, through verse 9 the writer is concerned with himself, has God forsaken ME, how can I pray, what about ME. He is without comfort. Then in verse 10-12 he starts to realize this and changes gears. In verse 13 he begins to think about the wonders of WHO God is, how great God is, and talking about His powers and His ways. The reader can feel the peace begin to overtake the writer. Interesting I thought.

"Hope for the Separated" points to this same passage, verse 19, saying "as an adult separated from your spouse, you may feel that you are indeed walking through the sea in the midst of mighty waters and that you cannot see the footprints of God. But I assure you, God is vitally concerned about you and your present state. The words of Jesus, 'Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.' (Matthew 11:28), are direct to you as surely as they were directed to those to whom Jesus spoke. Yes, you are weary from much stress. You are heavy-laden, burdened perhaps with guilt, anger, hostility, and anxiety. You will notice that Jesus does not ask that you lay the burden aside and come to Him, but rather that you just come. He has promised to give rest. He has not asked you to handle your own problems, nor has He promised to take away the problems, but He has promised rest."


I also loved in Chapter 5 to be told what to pray for, since I felt at such a loss. Chapman says, "I believe that you should pray for the specific work of the Holy Spirit in the life of your spouse. You should pray that God will effect a deep sense of guilt for his or her sin; that He will impart a geniune awareness of what it means to be righteous; and an understanding of the reality of judgment to come upon those who do not repent. Such praying is in keeping with what we know to be the work of the Holy Spirit. God will answer that prayer."

And to remember James 5:16b "The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

Blessings,
MSA

You don't know how much that meant to me today. Thank You!!!

Well...MSA...yesterday after i got home from church...H came down again, usually he always calls and asks first, but the last couple of times he has just "came home" instead of stopping at his mothers first. He came in to check the heat, etc. (the manly things he likes to do) Jake was asleep. I kept to myself mostly, but he kept coming around me...things tend to be a little strained at first...but i guess that is highly understandable.

He chatted with me...he had been smoking. something he doesn't do...(except 5 years ago...in this same state). In the 11 years i have known him that was his only time. Once he was on his AD's then he stopped that. I figure it's a stress relief for him. He has always used tobacco, until jacob was born and he stopped cold turkey, never picked it up again. this i am not concerned about but it brought us to a laugh and healthy conversation.

He walked around the Christmas tree, looking over it, he has a few collectable Bible ornaments and he mentioned them. He started referring and talking about the bible. My H has always been a very devoted Bible reader... he said...it's the end of days now.

anyway...he kicked around the tree, head down, hands in his pocket like a little boy and said...i guess i am calling the Dr. tomorrow. I said "why?" and he answered the only way he knows how..."because i am a fruitloop"

he then started asking about his BF(who is married to mine)medication and what IT was, and then started asking about what he used that didn't work for him in the past, so he didn't go there again (he had bad reaction to a couple, it took 3-4 tries to get the right one). Anyway ....We will see.

my BFs said that it was hopeful and encouraging to them. he has no other reason to take his bible or call the Dr. of course i am terrified to have any hope what so ever!!!! But i don't have that knife in the gut feeling as i did in the beginning when God showed me and spoke to me about what he was doing.

I guess i have just come to that point where nothing can be hopeful until results are seen.

I had a few questions for you, you amaze me at how you got through...with another child? that had to be tough. Did your H tell you he loved you the whole time he was gone? Did he gradually come around, or was it all at once, overnight difference in him? I know you said he suffered with depression also, was that a large part of it to begin with, or mainly to end? Just curious!!!!

I pray God blesses you and your H, family, daily! Your words are so kind, and SOOOOO much help so many days!!!

Please keep praying, we are progressing...you were right, holidays....tough on him. He plans on being at home Christmas...he said he would be there when jay saw his Santa. I didn't know what to say, i was shocked, and i said, you planning on staying on the couch? he said...kind of stunned "i don't know?"

I do want him there, for jay, but also it will be hard for him to be there for jay, and ME! i am scared MSA...very scared. I worry he might jab the knife in again, and i just don't think i am strong enough to take anymore, especially without total honesty, which i don't have from him.

i have made out a list, contract so to speak, he must comply with it...(its what we discussed before) i just don't know when to give it to him.

talk to you soon! Jaysmom

Hey, I'm glad they spoke to you, from God's hand to your heart... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


He should check out Malachi 2:13-16... and Malachi 3:5
Oh, heavens! He better hope not (in his current state!!!)

Hey, at least he's honest! No, seriously, he needs help - I hope he DID call today!!!

You are fortunate to have the open communication with his friend & your friend being married - this worked well for us during our trials - "the team up" or whatever it was!


It stunk. We have No Contact with OW or OC at this point. However, just knowing OC is out there is a challenge. It has been hard. HOWEVER, I was blessed to have people in my life that showed me that recovery is a real possibility, and it doesn't need to mean that I have no self-respect. I realized that God wants great things from us and our marriage, and as parents, and that He would make forgiveness and recovery possible for us if we relied on Him and put Him first in our marriage. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. I didn't always do that, but now when things seem hard I remember that this life isn't about me and my husband - it's about me & God and him & God. Someday he will be accountable for the things he did/does, I will be, you will be, we all will be. That gets me back to focusing on the log in my own eye.


Oh, no way! I got the ILYBINILWY speech from the get go. (I think you know the one... if you think about it! "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." No he was on the fence all the time. He really felt he was in love with OW. It was immensely difficult to listen to him justify choosing her over & over to me. I should never have listened to all that. So incredibly gut-wrenching. Our separation began with him denying there was an OW. He simply pointed to the 1,000 ways that I had ruined our M. (D-day #1 6-7-04) Then he admitted there was "someone else" (around 7-5-04); then I found out the "someone else" was his boss (Ugh); then we had a good talk one night and he could see I was changing (inadvertent Plan A analysis on my part) and the minute he told her he might want to work on his marriage she said she was pregnant. At the time that was a lie, but it put us both in a complete bawling tailspin. On the plus side, that was the first day we ever PRAYED together, I mean PRAYED HARD, bawling, together - even though it was a disaster.

No, everything with my H is intense, so of course he was in the Bahamas with her right after I had given a quasi-Plan B speech ("I guess it's over then, we don't need to talk about all the ways I failed you in our marriage anymore.") and he called the house at 12:30am my time woke me up, etc and we talked for hours. He broke up with OW in the middle of the night, called me at 6am and asked if he could come home. I was on my knees in gratitude to God for what I and so many others had prayed for for so long (well, 2 months, seemed so long...) He flew home (yup, with OW pis*ed the whole way) and moved home that night. Our kids were delighted. Things were going okay, but we hadn't found MB, and we didn't know the VITAL importance of NC, and got scared about $ and figured he should just LOOK for another job, but stay at work until he found one.
Well, it was only 2 months and the A relapsed, and they had to take a business trip together (!) which we prayed about & everything before, I trusted him so much, and that's when she probably got pg for real. I found out almost a year ago, 12/17/04, and we suffered thru the holidays for the sake of the family/kids/relatives. I only told one person for the next 2 weeks or so. H didn't want to tell anyone.

Yes, he was depressed in 2/04, right before the A really started. It wasn't really even an EA at that point, although OW had a predatory stance toward my H, but I didn't really realize it because she was married and had 3 children under age 4 with her H. I read a book on Low Self-Esteem that I thought described H to a tee, tried to get him to talk, tried to get him help. He went to the dr in 4/04 and got put on AD's, which I had not been supportive of in the past (he had an addictive history) but this time I was supportive.
His anger mgmt issues/depression lifted immediately. I mean THAT NIGHT I said to him (5 hrs after first AD pill) "Who are you?" he was so calm and relaxed. We laughed about it. But in a few more weeks his personality seemed so different, and I found out in hindsight that he started the EA in Feb/Mar/Apr 04, and the PA in 5/04.

So, how much personality change was from the ADs and how much from the A? Who knows. I think one reinforced the other - feeling good again after feeling so bad, feeling young, alive, romantic (toward OW, not me)... he just got all caught up in the fog. As you know, the books I read helped me through that rough time. I wish I would have known about MB, because I would have exposed to OWH and at work, but I didn't.

Also, after the relapse was admitted to, he became exceedingly depressed. Indeed suicidal. It was extremely difficult - I won't go into the details, but it was impossibly hard. I didn't dare let him out of my sight, all the while we had an "arrangement" that he would stay in the house for the kid's sake thru the holidays until we could figure out what to do. It was incredibly difficult. Very very scary. I never knew if I was going to find him dead downstairs. It was awful. He was hospitalized for depression in 1/05 for 3 days... it was very very bad. He just felt that he had really screwed things up beyond all hope - and he probably had, except that God is the God of the impossible!


I want him there for you guys too, the RIGHT, LASTING way with the best odds at recovery!

you read my mind!

when he says he wants to come home/ work on the marriage / go into counseling / is crying on his knees for another chance / any of the above!

Blessings!
MSA

MSA,

just a quick note...he did make an appointment, or so he said ( i honestly don't know at this point why he would lie). his appt. is tomorrow, cross your fingers.

i am praying really hard that his Dr. will give him what he needs, and that he will be HONEST with her about things. i feel like if he would be honest with her, it might break down the barrier and open him up to being able to be honest with me, sooner.

He also said in a round about way last night that he was doing it for us. He didn't come out and say it, but he did it the best he could, at his present state. My BF was shocked he could do that. He still doesn't talk about us, but i know thats okay, he isn't able right now.

I will let you know what i find out tomorrow. Please pray!!!

Jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,
I just have to say that I reread some of your oldest posts, and in them you say that 5 years ago when this happened your H didn't tell you because he thought you would leave him, that he COULDN'T be honest. Keep that in mind going forward, that when he does want to be honest it will be very scary for him. Breathe. Listen. React later. Collect the information as he is willing to give it, don't shut him down by getting angry or interrupting. Then you can cry and digest it, and react later. Thank him for sharing, and leave it at that.

I don't know, just rambling thoughts I feel I'm being told to tell you; not even my words and I don't even know what they mean to you, I just feel led to say those things. You can tell me if I'm way off base.

What does he need to be honest with OW about? His feelings for you & Jay? His intentions? His feelings for OW? His depression history?

Let me know how it goes...
MSA

MSA,

the words you just sent mean more than i can even begin to tell you. I lose sight of things and get so caught up in ME, ME, ME, that i don't stop to really hear God.

God gave you that to give me. Yes my H was so broken and down 5 years ago, that now when i see him deny and lie about her...it's almost a comfort...crazy as that sounds. He doesn't deny anymore the way he did in the very beginning. He is ashamed of himself.

As far as i know...he went to the Dr. today. His appt. was this morning, but i haven't talked to him. I don't normally during the day, but i will later. I am visiting my dad now and won't speak to him until later tonight.

I was reading back over what you wrote a couple days ago...i wasn't able to read them well, but skim over them the other day.

its funny, because you said the OW was pretty much after your H all along. Same here. The OW has been after him for a while. He too was depressed to begin with, as i have said before. My H was extremely depressed! Not being on ADs he runs from it and doesn't want to face it, so she came along to make the escape for him...all things i have rambled on about before.

I hope he will break down soon. My BF thinks this is the beginning of his come around. I of course get worried. My BF also said to tell you she thinks your PROFOUND! she was blown away with what you wrote me yesterday. she said she is so right...she had lost sight of that as well.

Is there anyway i can get him to be broken sooner? I know there isn't he must get there on his own. Maybe once the ADs kick in and he is able to sort out and see reality, that will be enough to wake him up and scare him.

Please continue your Profound thoughts! HA!

You are such a blessing! i'll let you know how the Dr. visit went tomorrow!
jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,
I think it's funny that you consider it profound, because I'm not kidding (and I know you know I'm not) when I say that those words did NOT come from me. I was just typing away, and I felt led for 2 days to tell you that I had read that in your old post about him saying he was afraid you would leave him if he told you the truth. I'm glad it was useful, but again, from God's hand to your heart.

I think he's coming around soon as well, you need to be ready with your letter/requirements...I know you are.

I hope the dr. visit went well. I think you are so fortunate to have a best friend like you do, too, and it doesn't hurt that her H is your H's best friend. You guys will get thru this, I believe that. Keep praying, keep me posted.

MSA

we have medication!!!! thank the Lord!!!

well...the Dr. visit went very well. H was very open to me about it. Said he told her he was a "fruitloop" he did tell her some things, he didn't detail alot, but i didn't expect him to. he was put on Effexor. H hasn't taken that. she told him to be patient, and work through the first 2-4 weeks of getting it into his system, and he said she also told him he would most likely need the full strength. (made me think she thought it was pretty severe)

anyway....i am going to ease back and say not alot at all for the next month or so. My BF told me today, he is trying and in his state that is huge. i get discouraged and feel so unloved by him, but she said, hey think about it like this...he says he is doing it for jay, but that means if he didn't know best for jay was both his parents together...then he wouldn't have gone to the Dr. alot of truth in that i think.

I am holding on to what you said, my Profound friend! but also God is granting me alot of patience right now for the next bit. Recovery will be slow going i'm sure. I've got my "contract" ready and waiting...yes it is a contract, which he can accept or decline...

I pray he will be broken soon. i think this med. will help him get through some of the fog. Please keep us in prayer!!!

talk to you soon! jaysmom

Did I send this to you before? Came across it a little while ago on another forum here and really liked it - don't know the author...

MSA
[color:"brown"] WHEN I SAY I'M A CHRISTIAN

When I say, "I am a Christian,
"I'm not shouting "I am saved"
I'm whispering, "I get lost"
That is why I chose this way.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble
And need someone to be my guide.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I am weak
And pray for strength to carry on.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed and
Cannot ever pay the debt.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not claiming to be perfect.
My flaws are too visible
but God believes I'm worth it.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches
which is why I seek HIS name.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority I only know
That I'm loved.[/color]

Happy Sunday to you!

I have become down the last couple of days. Really struggling yesterday, i spent most of the day in prayer, it was the only peace i could find. I talked to BF for a while and she said it was Satan, really trying me. He certainly is doing a good job. She thinks it could be that he is losing the battle with H and now shifting to me. I really hope so.

H came down last night for a while. He just goes around the house just like he never left. Really gets on my nerves. i just mainly ignore what he is doing. He acts sometimes like he is wanting to come home, and others not. He still isn't saying anything about us, but i don't either. I only comment that we (me and jay) will be moving on. just in gerneral conversation...i don't make a spectacle of it or anything.

Friday night he called me and like i said...i have really been emotionally and mentally drained, friday was no exception. i was nice, answered his questions...listened to him ramble on and on and on (really) about his day, work, what Santa got jay...blah blah...and i just got sick of it. He never asks me how i am, how my day was, etc. i am just tired of it. so i told him...just out of the blue...

You know, i have to do the best thing for me and jake, and i am starting to think you are not the best thing for either of us. I told him...i am tired of being 2nd choice to you and that i had realized that day...i always would be, there would always be someone else saying things he wanted to hear when he was down, or we were having financial trouble, or any kind of trouble hit his life. He would always dog me as being the root of the problem so he could go and get a "fix" with someone else. I said...really dear...that just isn't fair, and i just need to be someone's first choice for a change. I also told him that so much time had passed with him just living it up...that i realized too, that the past 11 years were just a sham. I told him that i realized that he had only lied to me and stayed with me until he thought someone better came along. And of course...he didn't respond.

i feel better when i am done, but realize too...he probably doesn't hear a thing.

You know MSA... i should be thankful...look what God has done for me. He answered prayer. My H went to the Dr. he is on meds now...i should be happy. Why now do i feel so give out? why do i feel so angry? why do i feel like beating the crap out of him? ...don't get me wrong...i am thankful, but what has happened to me? i prayed for so long and hard and finally get a relief and it seems not good enough. Is this normal? or am i going crazy?

He always changes the subject if i drop a hint of OW, or reference to something about her. I still haven't given up my goods on her, but i love to dangle in his face. He gets ill. not angry, or mad...just oh...ashamed/ill, ignores what i say. i still haven't told OWH, i haven't felt God is leading me to yet, although i feel like i may have to.

oh i don't know...i am rambling on and on today...sorry.
He has only taken 3 pills...i guess i should be patient...it may be 3 months or more. I just don't know if i can make it 3 more hours truthfully. i await God's answer and directions. Please pray God will make things clear for me. Please continue to pray for us...i really appreciate your prayers and advice.

and on a happy ending note...my son asked me today on the way to church..."mommy does Jesus have a hair dryer in heaven" things kids say and come up with.....don't know where that one came from.... Jaysmom

I do wonder why Jay wonders about Jesus having a hair dryer... all that long hair maybe. You should ask him, I'd be curious to know why he wonders that.

You know, when I started to feel like you are, I filed for divorce. Worked wonders. Not that I am recommending that, but is certainly does make things clear for the WS when they're on the fence.

Sometimes all the talk, no action, just does go in one ear & out the other. Exposing to OWH is another way to bring things to a new level.

As Flukeboy says on GQII,
I have told you I agree, wish I had exposed to OWH as well very much in hindsight.

Keep praying about that.

MSA

MSA,

I am still praying about the exposure. Honestly do not feel that God is ready for me to do so, but i will continue to pray He will guide me.

Last pm H came down again. He has just started coming without calling or anything. Jake was watching old home movies of himself, and i thought that was a good thing. H sat there in silence watching, later Jay crawled up in his lap and sat with him for a long time. I think that it was good for H. He could see who he really is. He could see a time when he was really happy and life was good, he could see his family and how much he loved me and his son. It was good medicine last night.

Although, my feelings for him have changed so much in the last couple of days that i just have kept away from him. He can sense it. i can't even fold clothes in another room for 10 mins without him coming in there. I know that i love him, i just don't feel like i care anymore. I know that God can change how i feel in time, but maybe God wants me to feel this way now. Just as H is coming around, i am running away. H has yet to be honest, to be broken, to ask to come home...so why should i feel different.

He did comment that he hoped THIS medicine would work and he wouldn't have to keep trying different ones, last time it took 2-3 times to find the right one. He said he hoped it made him feel better. He is such a prideful man. I honestly think....he thinks....he can come home in a few, claiming the medicine worked, he is sorry, he was a "fruitloop", should not have ever stopped medicine in the first place...and now I am coming home. Without EVER discussing OW, or anything involved with her. That is what my heart is telling me.

Thing is...that isn't going to work. He must confess...so what do i do? Do i allow him to come home, I don't want to under those circumstances. He has to be honest. If i tell him he can't, then will that be enough to make him broken? oh God only knows.

Well...we will see, Christmas will be so terribly rough on him, the thoughts of it already are. I told him yesterday, this would be the last year he would get to see Jay open his Santa. he of course made no comment. At least he is on an AD now, hopefully that will help him get through...even though he better get on his knees too!

well must go...got to prepare Jake's things for his Christmas program...He is the letter Y! ( i am assuming from Merry...) Yesterday he told me Jesus had moved from his heart to his stomach, and that he needed Jay to eat some cookies for Him...only MY son***

Yes he is 3 and very, very good at it.
Jaysmom

I love that, the cookies for Jesus. That cracks me up. He's a bright one, I can see that!

I think you are in just the right place, and just where God wants you to be. I have SO been there. Last Jan/Feb to be exact.

You tell him that being honest you might consider reconciling/counseling/etc, but if he can't be honest, then you are done. Through. He needs to understand that the thing he is afraid of (being honest) is NOT what is going to drive you away from him, the DISHONESTY is the deal-breaker, not what he's done.

I also told my WH at that time, "It's not what you have done that I can't get over, it's what you are STILL DOING! Get off the FENCE!"

It didn't work immediately, but after I filed for D, I realized at some point that my 3 "conditions" had been met; he had quit the job (yup, just gave notice & quit); had gone NC with OW (letter & all); and was prepared to have NC with OC if that was best for our family. I no longer felt at that point like I could leave the marriage knowing that no stone had been unturned. It was new information, a new dynamic, he had made BEHAVIOR and LIFE changes, not just promises and empty talk.

You'll know when it's time; I pray for him to be on his knees soon.

MSA

You are so profound!

I know what my problem is to an extent. He started medication less than 1 week ago, and since then i have just lost it. I have no patience, strength, control. I need to realize, i guess, that just because he started the meds, didn't mean he would stop seeing OW cold turkey.

sometimes i wonder if he thought doing what he is doing (going to Dr., starting meds, coming around...alot) would buy him and her more time together...that he could convince me, not to tell OWH, by making me think he was coming around...seeing as how he hasn't admitted to OW at all. I don't know...what do you think? I don't feel as though God is telling me that. and my BF said....what good would that do him, it would only buy him a few weeks, at most, because eventually you would just go and tell OWH. I have felt such strong feelings, i have KNOWN, honestly known everything ahead of time, God has been with me every step. this i don't feel that way about. I feel he wants to come home...eventually. I feel he doesn't want to throw us away.

they have nothing together. she isn't/hasn't left her H. He had no serious intentions. He doesn't want to lose us now, at first i think he didn't care, now....he knows he doesn't, but.... he doesn't want to end it with her just yet. i don't understand that. I simply don't understand. He keeps saying...maybe i will feel better in a few weeks, and i take that as....i still have a few weeks with OW, or at least to figure out how to end w/OW.

MSA...i am tired. My heart weary. My heart almost cold for him. But on the other hand, he does to seem to be trying....but not stopping. He comes down EVERYDAY. hangs out at home, then sleeps at his moms. during the day...spends time with her. (not all, she has kids, and works...so they only get a few together)

Is he trying? all the while i am running the opposite way, but i feel it is what God intends me to do/feel.

any take on this? Jaysmom

I would love for you to read or re-read that section in Donald Harvey's book "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" that talks about being the emotional security blanket for your WH. I have real concerns about him "hanging out at home" during the A. This puts you in an impossibly painful position (although a good position for demonstrable Plan A); and makes things very very nice & cozy for him. Yes, by getting on meds etc he is buying himself time. Whether he is doing it consciously or not I can't say, but you are definitely giving him latitude because he went to the doctor.

Be careful about letting him around so much, over the holidays etc, for "Jay's sake" - it is in Jay's best interest that your marriage is preserved, and letting your WH cake-eat isn't preserving it. I think a call to OWH would put a lot of positive things in motion; keep praying about it.

MSA

Last night was Jay's Christmas program. It was SOOOO good! He was a letter Y (in Baby Jesus) he did great. His daddy came, and sat next to me, behind a whole pew of in-laws.

2 weeks ago he wouldn't have been there. 1 week ago, he was debating on being there, 2 days ago he was going to be there but late and in the back, yesterday morning he was coming but would only sit in the back and leave immediately. He was extemely uncomfortable when he got there but i walked to the back of the church to give him our video camera (the church was packed and i am very short, and couldn't see very well) and asked very nicely if he would like to sit with me, (knowing he wouldn't) and he said no, i'll just stay here in the back, i said okay...and just patted his arm and thanked him for being there for Jay. He put his head down and i said, John just come on and sit up here...he followed me and sat down. My father turned around (we were right behind him) and spoke to him, very nicely, my step-mom spoke and they made things comfortable. Eventually we both went and stood together in the back to film and to see....but it went very well i think.

I can sense such a change in him. Even if it isn't over with OW, he is starting to realize it has to be and he is really starting to miss us. After i read what you wrote yesterday (the honesty thing... i couldn't get it off my mind at how true it is...he is terrified of being honest with me) so i told him...that he must be honest with me, that his dishonesty was what was ripping our marriage apart. he of course made no comment.

But the biggest thing about yesterday, i thought, was that he told me he went by to visit and wish his BF (my BF husband) a Merry Christmas, and to talk to him for a while. He said they talked about their meds and work...This was huge.

You see his BF is also his cousin. they were like brothers. My H is an only child, they are the same age and grew up together. They drifted apart the last year or so and have not been close at all, not hardly speaking at all, until all of this and he has been loyal to my H. (basically until he see's proof, he doesn't want to believe he is in an A, although...he pretty much knows he is ...he doesn't say anything to my H about it, but has talked to him and tried reasoning with him on a different level..."don't throw your family away...give some time, don't make rash decisions, etc.)anyway...my H has basically complained about him for over a year now and has not wanted to do anything with them, etc...(it was over their grandmother giving their grandads car to my H and not him... you can see where that would go)

long story short...when things were good between them...he wouldn't have stopped by his work to see him, unless he was there getting something already. I have been praying for months for a christian male friend for my H to confide in, etc. I just never thought it would be him, due to the conflicts in the past. My H said they talked for a while, he then said...i just thought i would stop and see him, since they have both been so good to us recently. when i spoke to my BF today, her H never told her he came by.

I think it is a good thing. I think he is looking for that someone he can go to for advice, help. I am sorry this is so long today, i am in a rambling mood i guess.

I am still torn over telling OWH. especially right here before Christmas. I am not mean. But i am going out with BF tonight and H has Jay today...which is also huge. Weds. are the days he NEVER keeps Jay, they are off together so they spend the day together. My guess is he is keeping him either because she is working, or because he is trying to throw me off.

He is struggling. He wants his family again. I know that from God. He honestly wants his family and doesn't want to throw us away. He wants to end it with OW, but doesn't want to do it the way he knows God is telling him to. He just wants it to go away, but he knows it won't until he does what God says to do. The honesty thing is killing him, but that is what will make him broken. deciding that he cannot live without us, without God, and with his guilt. Pray for us...i know you will.

on a happy note from Jay...Santa read them a story after his program last night, when asked how many of them had been good all year...Jay was the only one who didn't raise his hand. (At least he gets the honesty thing from me) When i asked him why he didn't raise his hand he said..."something is wrong with that Santa" i said what? "his beard is fake, and he isn't fat...somebody took the real one...."

Happy Wednesday! Jaysmom

msa...

quick note, i spoke to my BF a few mins ago, she said her H told her that he told my H yesterday (out of the blue) that he had been gone for 4 months, not giving me or jay anything, leaving us dangling and he needed to re-evaluate things and make some sort of decision soon. He said my H responded as that he still felt like he did when he left 4 months ago (meaning...he wasn't "in love" blah blah..with me anymore, because i spent too much money)(my BFH is in sort of denial over the A also, and thinks i should "move on")

anyway...i called my H, just to check on Jay, and had a very lengthy conversation with him. I didn't say anything about BFH. He went round and round about just crap, not making a bit of sense on anything. One min. he would always love me, the next i spent too much, the next he didn't know what was wrong with him, then he didn't care about anyone or anything, but he loves Jay and wants the best for him...just crappy stuff. before i hung up i said, do you want me or not. Nothing. again, nothing, the cycle went on with him answering..."i am not anwering any of your ?'s, then i'm tired of this s**t, to nothing, to crazy stuff...My H has lost his mind. He is really just insane. this A has caused him to be so stupid! Long story ending...i am stopping by OWH work today....i don't know if i will do it, but i will if God says to. Something has to end this vicious cycle.

I am afraid i might lose him, but really ....he is already gone. I am afraid what will happen. please pray
Jaysmom

Did you talk to OWH?

I'm telling you, he's on the fence and once the decision isn't up to him any more (REALLY not up to him anymore) he will get off the fence. It's a very very scary thing to do though I know, can't do it until you're ready. Ick. And nothing's foolproof.

You are in my prayers.
MSA

well...i went. I called H and gave him one more chance to make it right, he was so ill yesterday, and was just plain hateful! So i hung up on him, (sitting in parking lot of OWH work) got out of my car, walked in...just ready to go, feeling a little nervous, but ready for closure.

He was off.

off. what are the chances? You know i've been telling you, God didn't want me going. I knew that. I knew, but lately i have been struggling with this so much, needing an end. I am assuming God isn't ready just yet. I took that as a sign, God saying..."remember...I am in charge, be patient my child."

I will know when to go, i feel like maybe after Christmas would be better for everyone.

After all of that, me hanging up on him, him saying crap and being ill...he called and apologized this morning. He was very sad today. He said i am sooo sorry for being so mean to you yesterday. I just said...whatever. I am sorry too. Sorry for Jay too. i said, you know i just need an end...i am very tired and so is Jay, this is just more than we want to deal with anymore, after Christmas, we are moving on with life, without you, that being your choice.

Who knows MSA if that does a bit of good. i thought so before, i know nothing now. Starting to feel a bit like God hates me, but i think that is normal. I know he doesn't, He loves me more than anything, that is my comfort. but when you hurt soooo bad, and watch your little child suffer, you wonder, as i am sure you did, What is God doing and why? I want HIS will for our lives. I know that whatever may happen, God will be with us. He is all Jay and i need. And i was serious, after Christmas...i am moving on, what that means not sure yet. But....i can't let this man destroy what is left in me. He has played with our lives as if we didn't matter, as if we couldn't feel, as if we were just trash.

Jacob and i are worth more than anything, and God will see to it that he realizes that one day, and then his suffering will begin.

Thank you for your prayers.

I will let you know when i go to see OWH and what happens.

Happy Jay note today..."mom...we need to go to the store, Jesus needs cupcakes for his birthday!" he is my joy!
Jaysmom

Merry Christmas!!!

Just wanted to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas!!

Things are definitely moving forward. He has only been on meds 1 week and i can already tell a difference, and we are a long way from full strength.

Last night he was so much like my sweet H. I am getting worried though. Last night and this morning he was just so loving and flirty with me. VERY flirty. VERY!!!
I miss him MSA...and i know that he is going to try this weekend to "be" with me....and i am afraid not to, but afraid also to. That was some of the resentment towards me because i "cut him off", so to speak. I don't want him thinking well....she is at it again, BUT...he needs to know he can't just come home, without explination, without being broken.

My friend said....and tell me what you think...Let it go, (if i can) so far...so that he knows you do want him, but then stop and explain it would be too painful to follow through, with him not living with us, or even saying he loves me, or anything. Let him know that i love him and want to be with him, but i can't when i know he will leave and go to OW, or just plain leave and not stay...period.

oh...this may just put me in a home. for the insane that is. But...i enjoy the flirting. thats my H. Its nice to see him coming back to himself. He has been so different and just complete stranger. He is becoming so concerned for me and jacob. Concerned about everything, something he has not been in 4 months or more. Thank goodness for ADs!

we still have a VERY long way to go. And he still has alot to do. I am gaining control now, and i have plans to take action, SOON!

i'll let you in on what i am planning to do in a day or two. thank you for your prayers...you are a blessing!

lots of shopping to finish....if i don't speak with you before, hope you and your family have a very Merry Christmas!! Much better than your last!!! God is good...all the time...God is good! *Jaysmom*

Well, I'll tell you; one time before I knew WHO OW was, this happened at his apartment and I did exactly as your BF suggests, let it go so far and then said, "If you call her right now with me here and end it with her then we'll talk about sex." I didn't know the depth of the affair, I though it was just a fling with some barfly college student or something. He didn't make the call, and we didn't have sex.

Another time, after Dday #2, I was letting him sleep at home, and same thing happened. I told him I was worried that I would just be too hurt afterwards, knowing he's still carrying on with OW. Basically, he kept on, and we ended up doing it. He made an almost scary comment at the time, he looked at me in the face and said, "See the kind of person I am? I know it will hurt you and I talk you into it anyway." That didn't help my growing suspicion that he was a complete sociopath. He was just in such a state at that time, that really isn't like my H.

So, I think your BF is right on the money, if that's what you're comfortable with. In order to convince you not to go any further, you could read some of Lemonman's (he's a doctor) perspectives on resuming SF before STD testing and AIDS testing is done - NOT SAFE. Don't put yourself in that position, you don't need herpes, chlamydia, HPV, or any other potential STDs on top of this mess, and God-forbid HIV.

Also, on further thought, I can see that it is good that you didn't expose to OWH. After all, you have had all this time to do so, in their minds it would really seem vindictive and vengeful to do it 2 days before Christmas, and why do that to OWH? Knowing you can't erase the timing and the associations later for him. My Christmas was ruined last year by D-Day on the 17th and finding out she was pregnant on the 22nd, which preceeded major breakdowns by my WH. Waiting until afterwards is good. Just don't wait too long.

On that note, if I don't talk to you beforehand, have a very Merry Christmas (and have fun necking with your WH)!!!

MSA

Merry Christmas to you!!!

well...well...Mrs. STOW, i have had me some fun this weekend! HA! No really...i knew, after his flirting the last few days...i knew.

although, it didn't happen as i expected. Yesterday my H came down and spent the day with us, until i had to leave last evening to visit my grandparents. We had been getting along very well, but he wasn't acting like he was the day before. In fact by Friday afternoon...he wasn't in the same mode either... alot to do with the medication and the depression i think...on top of the A. (also he has forgotten his meds 2 days)

Anyway...we still had a good day, he just wasn't flirty, actually seemed down....thinking it was the "holiday's being rough for him" thing. well...he and Jay were playing and i said...gotta go take a shower and get ready..."ok" so i pulled our bedroom door up, not wanting to seem..'you know'...and never expected him to come in there, and if he did...expected him to see me, and turn back around. Well, not so. He came in there, me only in my undies. I had my back turned and saw him in the mirror (he didn't see me), he was taking it in...but did not turn around.

he stayed, eyes wide open. I said..."can i help you?" No response...."your making me a bit uncomfortable starring like that..." "john" "can i help you" He finally just turns around, and walks back a bit, then...back to me. never saying a word, but totally telling me....he is still crazy for me.

Jay was taking a bath, and we had some "alone" time. He hugged me tight, very tight...but not a "gotta get some" type hug. More like....i love you, i can't believe i am doing this to you. He kept looking at me, just looking...like it was the first time he had seen me...like he was really missing me. I took control...and just held on tight. we just held each other, i teased a bit and then before you know it...but before it went very far...Jay comes running out of no where. I said to myself...okay God, you know whats best.

Later that evening, he came back to see us. In a rather ill mood. Not because he didn't get to finish...but because i think he was mad at himself for wanting me. Or at least that is how i felt.

Today...he came down early, to see Jays santa. He again was in that rather ill mood. Not wanting to see me today (as i was getting ready, he did but acted mad that he did), but then he will say he is sorry, he doesn't mean to be ill..blah blah. I am at my mom's now, and will be leaving to go to my dad's before going home. He is planning on coming down again tonight.

I am okay. I don't feel hurt or anything, in fact, i feel it was good for him to KNOW he still has those feelings for me (even though i know he has) but i think it was good for us to touch and be close. It was the first time he hugged me since he left. I did tell him today..."well you should be proud of you...at least you can feel like you haven't cheated on OW" then he responded with something that caught my attention...i can't remember exactly but he said something like...how do you know there STILL is one, or something to that extent. He didn't have time to plan on it, but it raised the ? if maybe he has ended it? wishful thinking i'm sure...

My dad and friends who have seen him all say...he looks terrible and they tell me how GREAT i look. Funny isn't it...he lost alot (too much) weight, and one would think he would be having the time of his life, but he is miserable and looks awful. His wife however....is getting the eye from several men, and looks GREAT.

Anyway...long drawn out story...but i wanted you to know the details. I think it was good. I am happy. He is miserable. I don't believe in my heart his mood was because he regretted me, i believe it was more the guilt of what has been going on that is troubling him. I believe God had his hand there, giving what needed to be given and stopping it when it should have. Give my H alot to think about and "wish" for, just some "eye candy" for Christmas. I believe God is really working. I am content. I miss him, still want him, and hopeful things will work out. On the other....i have given my best, done what i could, and no one can say i didn't give 100% to work things out. I am still planning on cutting things off with him (Phones disconnected...changing my cell, etc. ) when he can't get me, and can't call me 24-7, and i go to OWH...then we will see where he is...

time for change MSA. time for a better year. Jake and I will own 2006. this week...i am making changes. I will keep you posted! sorry this was so long. Jay is being entertained by my baby bro. (20 year old college students are good for something, sometimes) and i have few moments to myself.

Merry Christmas to you....i will speak to you soon! Jaysmom

Ladies,

Let me address two things: his requerst for SF all the time, and what you should do now.

His request for SF was more to receive comfort from you even though all around him was messed up. Who else to turn to?

Now, I think you should start looking into Plan B. Check the concepts out and write a good Plan B letter to your WH. Save it until you find yourself starting to lose your love for him, or until you are tired of his fence sitting, cake eating, actions. Then present your Plan B letter to him. His mother can act as a go between for arrangements for your son.

Jaysmom, I think he thinks you'll be thru with him if he tells you the whole truth. He is very very confused. He has mixed emotions.

I hope he can someday see & believe that the only thing that can make any of this right again is God; his own brokenness before God, in the fall-on-your-knees sobbing way that we have to surrender to God admitting that we have been "controlling" things our own way, doing it "our way" thinking we could manage just fine, and that we have screwed things up beyond belief. Begging God to forgive us for being so selfish, so pompous, so sure of ourselves... for turning our back on God and saying "I've got this all under control, I'm gonna do this my way." And just realizing to the core of the core of the core of our being HOW MUCH THAT FAILED and what fools we have been!!! Is there a pastor or Christian friend your H can turn to to talk to?

2006 IS going to be a better year for you; you take your power back from your WH, and give it to God.

MSA

i spoke to my other BF after reading your post and told her what you said, she agreed and has all along, thought that he is fearful of losing me if he admits.

What i just don't understand...is Why, why, why, why? is he still involved with her? Yes i am aware it is an addiction, BUT... when you realize you can't hide it any longer and that i am probably going to tell OWH why? Maybe i just cannot comprehend it, well...i know i can't. I have never had an addiction. Don't smoke, drink, sleep with other men, have affairs, never did drugs. I just can't comprehend the "hold" an addiction has on someone. The OW is quite scanky. Old and scanky.

He does need a christian friend. He doesn't have any friends. just my BFH. Honestly. He has no other friends. he did have but...they all sort of drifted apart over the last few years. He has one other very good friend, who is a christian and very devoted to his christian lifestyle, church, wife, etc. I talked with him 3 weeks after H left and he told me he would talk to him. Tears in his eyes, couldn't believe it. My H hasn't heard from him. ? why, not sure. My H really admires our pastor and has ALWAYS held so much respect for him, talks highly of him, thinks he is next to walk on water....but i have suggested he talk with him in the past...he never comments.

he definitely needs God. I have known that from the beginning, in fact just a few weeks after he left, i was driving to work, praying and God just spoke to me and i knew. My H deperately needed to get right with God. I felt like this whole situation was bigger than i ever could imagine. That God was using this to bring my WH to him. in fact my H and i have always gone to church and a few years back i remember during invitation my H asking request for prayer. Shocked...i never said anything to him. he never went forward...but that has always been in my mind.

We got out of church the last year or so, then the debt got out of hand, and i started getting very angry with God. my H was shocked at how angry i was. Blaming God for my stupidity. I remember saying "why does God hate us so bad" my H looked at me and said..."He doesn't hate anyone" but then a month or so later...H left. I blame myself at times, thinking if i had been a better christian wife to him...then maybe i could've stopped this.

He did comment just the other day, that our last vehicle, (very, way, way too expensive for us) we bought thinking it would make us happy. I said yes, but we have come to realize now that it isn't money that makes us happy is it? he didn't comment after that. I was encouraged. Thinking maybe he is starting to see the bigger picture now.

What do i do MSA? i feel so stuck. I pray 1000 times a day. I know he needs the Lord. But i can't make him. All i can do is pray. Pray for an end to this, Pray for him to repent. Just pray. But sometimes, like now, i do feel like God isn't listening. or that H isn't listening to God. i wonder daily why does God keep allowing them to do this? Why hasn't it surfaced? so many why's. Not enough answers. He is completely miserable with himself and all he is doing...so why? why doesn't it end?

My BF wanted me to ask your opinion. She has been trying to get me to move out. She thinks if i move in with my dad and leave our home that it would help things, since he is right there. She says...you need to be gone out from under his nose. "he has you right where he wants you" "if your not there anymore, he has to actually do something, work for you, make a decision" she says "as long as you are there nothing has changed for him since he left"

my problem...i shouldn't have to move in with my parents, take my son from HIS home because my stupid H can't keep it together. I didn't ask for this why should i have to give up my home too. I don't know. i think she is right. He cannot stand not knowing my where and whens. He just comes down everyday and hangs out because we are there. it would be nice to have some help with Jay at times and not see him everyday. Make him miss me. ????

sorry this is so long. i just needed to let off some steam. again i know what he needs is to give everything up to God, but what do i do? He needs to be broken to God, to me, to Jay, to HIMSELF. when MSA????? or will he ever????

Jaysmom

It doesn't matter how old & scanky the OW is... the addiction is the way that relationship (that FANTASY relationship) makes him FEEL. It's very addicting.



None of us handle things perfectly. Not one of us doesn't have regrets about things. But your H has made his choices, he cannot blame you and you shouldn't blame yourself. Learn from your past, and do better when you know better. That's all any of us can do.


Sometimes that IS all you can do is pray. However, I also think there are tangible things you can do to move things along to break the fence-sitting, cake-eating cycle. Things became immediately clear for my H when I filed for divorce. Even though he told to me get it over with & do it if I was sure, when I really did it he was angry, shocked, and very very surprised.

God gives us free will, and your WH is using his free will to make sinful choices right now.
[color:"brown"]
James 1:12-17
God blesses the people who patiently endure testing. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. And remember, no one who wants to do wrong should ever say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else either. Temptation comes from the lure of our own evil desires. These evil desires lead to evil actions, and evil actions lead to death. So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.

Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, he never changes or casts shifting shadows.
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[color:"purple"] James 1:5-8
If you need wisdom--if you want to know what God wants you to do--ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking. But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. They can't make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.
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In all likelihood because he thinks he has real feelings for OW. He knows he has real feelings for you. He thinks you won't be able to forgive him if you know the truth. He thinks you are better off without him. He knows you deserved better than this.


Well, this BF so far has proven herself to be a smart cookie, so I'm inclined to think she is making a good argument. HOWEVER, I would need to know a lot more about what is at stake for you leaving your home as far as if there were eventually a divorce or legal separation. I would not want you to do anything that compromises your legal standing with your home. HE was the first to abandon the home, but ... can you just stay at your Dad's a lot without technically MOVING there??? Just an idea, I don't know how practical? Are you financially afloat with all this going on? Can you afford the home? If you DID divorce, would you stay in the home? All considerations... but I would like you further from WH and out from under his eye all the time. Can't do a Plan B of any kind with him living next door.


I don't know Jaysmom... often it happens I think when the WS really thinks (REALLY BELIEVES) they are losing everything and the choice is no longer up to them. Not just rhetoric, but action.

So now that Christmas is over, you are still considering a conversation with OWH I hope?

My best,
MSA

Jaysmom [/quote]

I had a really deep discussion with him this morning. He came to our house today to watch Jay. For some odd reason i was encouraged about that, i guess because....well he is wanting to be in our home. He has come down every evening for about 2 weeks now. Length he stays longer and longer. We become more comfortable with each other each day.

My other BF (i have 2, this one's H..WH himself at one time)told me that her H thinks...the roles between me and OW have reversed. Now H feelings are changing for me, getting back to what they were, and feelings for OW are drifting. He said...he knows he doesn't want to lose you...but (as you have said) he is afraid of telling the truth, so by continuing with OW...he has somewhat of a security...he isn't losing everything. He can still have her...with no strings....basically...not letting one go without a sure thing on the other side. Makes sense i guess. He didn't leave me...until he had hooked her. ????

This morning i felt very led by God to tell him a couple of things. I explained to him...that God had placed some things on my heart and i needed to tell him. I started by asking if he loved Jacob..."yes", "do you want the best for him?" "yes, of course" then i said well...i have worked very hard the last 4 months to hold on to this marriage, to fix, patch what is broken. I said...i have prayed for you like never before...that God will work on you, be with you. "i have stood in the gap between you and God, taking the stones that you have thrown at me over and over, praying God would forgive and speak to you, and not take away what He has blessed you with" (his head down..listening, not responding) then i said, i believe you when you say you love Jay, and want the best...and you know what the best is.

I told him that he doesn't tell me he loves me, but by saying he always will...says you still do. I told him i thought that he down deep did not want to lose me. Anyway...by the end...i just said to him, that God was the only thing he needed. The only fix. The solution. and he is just a Prayer away. I said...He will change your feelings for me, for her and fix everything. I asked him to consider speaking with our pastor or a friend or anyone he felt comfortable with about this situation. He just sat there playing with our cat, but looking very sad. He mumbled okay.

I felt very good about it. As i have said before, my heart knows...God has told me...be patient...i am working. His feelings are changing for me. He is with me everyday. We laugh, joke, and play games with Jay. He seems so much like his old self....but still 100 miles away from himself too. I know he just started the medication, and that should help him with the things swirling around in his head...maybe to clear up...what he sould do. I don't know. It helped before, and since he has started i can see a difference, but it will still be awhile.

As far as leaving my home. We live in NC...you have to be legally seperated for 1 year and 1 month before you can file for divorce. No legal seperation has been filed for. He will not do it. I have said...i will NOT file, because it isn't what i want...but it is what you say you do...i am not paying for something i never wanted...so if the marriage is over...YOU do it. 4 months...NA DA. He refuses. I can't make it on my own at all...way too many bills. He pays for everything, except childcare, my car, and cell. He basically is paying for us to live there...he has said numerous times he doesn't want us to leave. He seems fine with the arrangements, well i guess so. Got his wife right there when he comes back from running around, can see both of us...whenever...but still feels like he is big daddy taking care of things. I could go to my dad's. He is about 30 mins. away, i spend alot of time there anyway, but when we need to come home...is when he comes, or right after. He always comes to our house when he gets in...doesn't call, just comes down.

If i were gone, if he couldn't get me, he would lose it. he says he is calling to check on Jay, coming to see Jay...but he never speaks to him on the phone...and chats with me mostly at home...I NEED THIS TO END!

I really am struggling, with telling OWH...i am really scared! What if dude says "my wife told me you might come by" what if she has made up a crazy story about me, and he just thinks i am looney...I just don't have much evidence. Just August phone records, and her maiden name???enough???? i am a scardy pants. But i need this to be over!!!!

MSA...am i going CRAZY?????

Jay got mad at me in the grocery store the other day and screamed to everyone around...Mom...you are a maniac!!! My child....God Bless!!!

Jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,
I think the conversation is good, and you have a good handle on how he is playing both sides, stringing you both along, only wanting to bet on the sure thing. The question is, how long will you let that continue?

Even though I was also of the mindset that I didn't want the D and wasn't paying for it, after the relapse & when she was pregnant, and he still couldn't decide, that was it. He was suicidal and still couldn't just end it with her and make it right. Didn't know what he wanted, what to do. "If W can forgive me and not hold this over me for the rest of my life then I want W. If W can't let it go, then maybe I would be better off with OW." Etc. was his thought pattern I think, and the pregnancy complicated it further.

I think talk to OWH; perhaps he has been prepped by OW, but if you are calm & reasonable, what on earth would your motivation be to tell him such lies? He has his own gut feelings and evidence; he can check into whatever he wants. He doesn't NEED to believe you for you to have EXPOSED the affair; if he wants to live in denial there's nothing you can do about that. But you know how such a meeting would eat away at him and make him need the truth.

You aren't crazy, not at all. BUT, you may need to be the one to make a final decision; he probably won't. I wish it wasn't that way, I wish he WOULD decide. But that probably won't happen. These WH's can stay on the fence forever if they have their emotional security blanket with their W, and the alternate Plan with OW.

Much love & peace to you,
MSA

Hey Mrs. STOW...

Yesterday work was slow and i stayed on this site pretty much all day, i posted on GQ about exposing...you may have read. Everyone agreed with you ...do it.

You know about my situation and i look forward everyday to your advice...you will never know how much i appreciate it. I know that God has given you what i needed to hear...so many times...many thanks for your prayer and care.

Yesterday when i went to pick up Jake, my H was being so nice and kind...as usual anymore...as long as i don't mention his running around...we are good as can be. I just cannot live this way another minute longer. I wasn't so nice. We got into a yelling match...him losing the war again because his responses are just plain stupid. He was very nervous and jumpy. basically he is scared sh*tless. Not enough however to end his A. at least i don't think he has.

I don't have any recent proof. He did make that comment on Christmas..."i didn't know there was still anyone" but that could've been trying to throw me off...my guess. I am starting to think....he hasn't told her the things of late. He hasn't mentioned anything about me knowing who she is and that i could tell her H. I don't think he has...because i think she would've ended it with him...being afraid of losing what SHE has with $$$$hubby. and he figures if i tell her...she will leave me. oh poor baby. POS! do you notice how the anger is just taking me over.

why doesn't it make me run to tell OWH? oh...my guess, i am just too darn nice. no honestly i haven't believed God wanted me to, not yet anyway...He has given me everything so far...i don't want to give up on God now. But the last 2 days, i have felt more at peace about telling him. Maybe today...i am going out w/BFs today....We are gonna do some snooping around. We think we know where she may be and plan on following if we are right. Then we will see if she meets up with my H. If so....camera in tow...i will present my evidence to OWH...tonight, if not....i may just speak with him anyway.

i have given H every opportunity to end this and do what is right. he did cry on the phone with me last night...although he would never admit it. He couldn't speak to me ...rather obvious he was upset. I was crying myself...i told him...you know God blessed us 3 years ago with a miracle and look how we have treated it...."our M is over because i spent all your money, and you just woke up one morning out of love with me" yeah...thats really fair to Jay isn't it. i said alot more...he didn't speak. I told him to really pray about his decisions. He hasn't called me today.

i am not surprised that he hasn't ...he again...showed me yesterday how scared he was. He knows i mean business and he knows...i am barely holding on to the rope. i don't know what he is more scared of...losing me or her. I asked him if that was why he wouldn't tell me the truth..."because you are afraid i will leave?" he didn't respond...i asked again and he just mumbled no....but he answered all my other ?'s really mean or yelling at me.

Oh MSA...i just don't know...i haven't felt this way since he has been gone. I realize today...i have held so much hope for us. i have lived off of hope, God's grace, God's love....but i am so weak now...i just don't care. Don't care.

If i expose today...i know he will be angry...but hey...what can he say he is angry about right? "what girl" "what #" "what phone" wonder why he will say he is so angry with me...since there isn't anyone...? hmm...

i am afraid...if OWH kicks her out...they will run off together. But then again...if i don't expose, and it never ends...their relationship will just keep growing.

she told me when i spoke to her once on the phone (right after he left) that she didn't think you should stay together for the kids sake...the other night i couldn't resist asking him..."so hon...what um is OW staying with her family for since you shouldn't stay for the kids...what excuse is she giving you...she staying for her kids? or her H?" which is it? then i said...you are a fool if you thinks she isn't dishing it out to her hubby...he's a man...he ain't gonna go with out IT...so i said..dearest...you are doing her and her H...Hmmmm....

see...i am a peice of work...no conversation we have goes without me throwing a nice spark of my wit in there.

i have to tell you this...because well...i tell you almost everything ...your like becoming my most profound friend ha! but i thought it was funny...

my BF called OW's work the other day (she works at a grocery chain here) anyway... asked for her, oh she is off today...(God really puts these poor dumb people in our situations at the right time..i know He does) this little old lady says Honey she won't be back until next week, she's gonna be manager of the Starbucks (actually she said starbursts he he) that opens in our store next week.

well...i remembered that H had taken our son to grocery store close to our house the other day...it has a starbucks..brand new...and H made a comment that Jay told him we always went to that store...(its new..i don't i stick with the old) i answered him...no just sometimes...i usually go to the old one. long story short when i found out about OW new job...i asked Jay...did Daddy get coffee when he took you to store ...he said yeah...he gave it to me....

long story short...i played with it ....couldn't help it (as i do with everything i have found out) i said to H when he came down...jakey said you gave him coffee the other day...laughs ...yeah....then with my tush in his face ( showing it off ) said...where'd ya get it? ...Starbucks? yeah...why..."did ya get it free?"...no..i had to pay why? "oh...just thought you would...since you have connections..."

he fumbled around uncomfortable...but tell me...i know you may not have thought it was funny...and maybe its funnier when i tell in person...but i thought to myself...HE MUST BE FREAKING OUT. He has to...tell me MSA...He has thought i didn't know anything...he has to be freaking at the stuff i know...right?

anyway...sorry so long today..i am so bored at work...

i will let you know what goes on tonight....take care...jaysmom

ok msa...i am going...i am pretty freaked out right now....i'll keep you posted...probably won't be able to get back on here until tomorrow....pray hard!!!jaysmom

Well? Did you find OWH?

I know it is hard to take the risk of exposing and something happening where he leaves you, but this fence-sitting just cannot continue. And he is much more likely to come to his senses when you have the courage to push the issue.

I appreciate your kind words and hope that I am helping. I had many friends walk me hour by hour to the point of realizing I needed to stand up for myself and take a chance - it didn't happen overnight, it was a process. You can't do it (convincingly) until you mean it and you're ready. I, like you, was scared. But it got to the point where I was more sick of it all than scared. Dr. Phil, "I'd rather you be healthy alone, then sick with somebody else." and (I'm paraphrasing what I remember, how I heard it) ...

"You're not mourning the man you were married to, you're mourning the man you WISH you were married to. If a new suitor came into your life and this was his list: I will lie, I will cheat, I will deceive, I will manipulate, I will be self-serving, I will hurt you, I will hurt your children, I will betray you. How does that list look? Someone you want in your life?"

That show (with MomTo3Boys on THIS Website) inspired me to file for D which ultimately saved my M, and brought the A to a quick end.

Stay strong, I'm praying for you!
MSA

MSA

msa... I DID IT....

i knew when i got up yesterday God was telling me i had to.
after arguing with him for most of the day...He kept saying GO!

so BF in tow ....i went. Her H is the kindest, nicest, Christian man i have ever met. After going in...i asked to speak to him in private...and started out by saying... i am a christian wife who is trying to save her M. After presenting her maiden name (which she gave as her current last name...) was confirmed and her cell...He knew.

Listen to this...He asked me if my H is a vendor...i said yes....He knew...BUT.....

a couple to 3 months ago...he said she become very upset at a church service...he thought it was the service...but afterwards she was still very upset....He asked what was wrong? He said...by that point i knew...he said his gut told him...i said...been there! He said he asked if it was another man...she said yes. She said things had gone "to far" with a vendor from work....but said....it was over.

they went to speak with their pastor about it ....and he said since then everything was fine. I gave him a few more reasons why i thought it was still ongoing...but told him i had no recent proof (this man was SOOOOOOOOO nice, never angry, defensive,...just willing to get to the bottom of it)

so right there in his office...he called his cell company. I told him i didn't have H new # he had changed but...he called anyway ( thank goodness) anyway...he got # and she had called like 7 times within an hour while at home with him (pretty devestated at this point but he is holding together well, quoting scripture...etc.)

He calls #....yep...my Hubby answers...he asked "who is this" my H said...Who is this? he answered very nicely by giving his name...(don't you know...i wish i could've been there to see my H face when he heard that) Her H mouthed to me...is it him? i got his phone and said...John? he said...WHAT?????? Couldn't resist at that point and said... " i told ya baby i would get ya" i know probably shouldn't have but did. So then....Her H calls her in front of me...asked me to be quiet. He said... a very nice lady came by my work today ...by the name of.... and immediately she started crying. He talked...and then asked ...is that the vendor we talked about....


she said...yes...he said i thought it was over...she said...it was but it started up again...the whole time...just bawling. she kept apologizing to him...and he kept saying ..."don't apologize" (i was like gagging at that point...but hey...he just found out...)

long story....but i just gotta tell you... he prayed, told me he would talk to her after their daughter went to bed, and give me a call when he had any info...i haven't heard from him...but...i am good. He was very nice.

then BF called my MIL to have her take jake out...i was little worried what H would do...i knew he probably wanted to kill me ( even though he isn't that way at all...this was bad to him...you never know) then she called my H...

shockingly...H was fine. this weirds me out some. He wasn't fine...but not angry...a little bit mean but only at times. she said...do you want to talk to her...he said not right now...i will be home later. she asked if he would hurt me...he did get mad....and said...you know better.

anyway....i spoke to him and he just totally acted like things were normal...first thing...do you need anything from walmart...i just was like...you are so mental...no WE NEED TO TALK... after a few he said... i will be home in a bit.

he comes home. just me there, jay at MIL's. walks in...i could tell....very ashamed, but very defensive too. Still denying everything. I said...john...SHE CONFESSED...I WAS THERE. then he would admit...well we only went out to eat a couple of times...no sex. I said...you are lying. He followed me through the house as i packed me and Jay up to leave. anyway...after alot of my anger, tears, and him just following me, acting ashamed and unsure of himself...but NOT broken and not being honest...i yelled at him about 10 times to "get out" because he was killing me, but he wouldn't even move off of the bed...ever..i said...IF YOU WANT TO COME HOME YOU HAVE TO COMPLY TO THESE THINGS. i gave him the list....he took it, read over it, and kept it.

He asked for SAA book and i told him i would give it to him. at times i thought he was going to cry...but he wouldn't give up his secret cell.

I know i wasn't expecting him to do all he did, he wasn't angry at all...everyone was actually shocked he did what he did...and i myself didn't expect his feelings for her to end right then...i didn't even expect to talk to him for several weeks or days...but right there he was.

THEN...today he goes by to see BFH again...and he called and told BF that even though all that happened ...H still maintains he is finished with me. I know it is probably defensive or is it? why did he act the way he did with me, ask for the book, take my "contract" with him...tell me he was considering talking with our pastor...follow me around, act sad and ashamed if HE IS DONE WITH ME? OH I AM SO....GOING CRAZY!!!!!

i left today to be gone for the evening...he called this morning saying he would come down and see jay...i just cannot handle that anymore...he hasn't called to see where we are or anything...he probably isn't sweating it right now...but my plan is NC with him at all until i just have to. i cannot live this way. He is abusing me mentally. he makes me think he wants me, can't live without me because he can't let me go, but to his friend...oh i am finished.....why did he even go by to see him today anyway? He even told me he needed to talk to him...and he would...so why...does he not have the b*lls to tell me himself he is done?

oh MSa..sorry for so long... i need advice...what is this...i know i shouldn't expect him to just want to be with me overnight...reality if i hadn't have gone yesterday, today he would've gotten up and called, seen, done her the same as the last 4 months...and her H is so nice ...maybe the A didn't end...although i believe with her being honest with him before about my H and her being upset...it will end..

please send some help my way...thanks...Jaysmom

WOW! I am so impressed with you! I have to still talk to OWs boyfriend and i am scared to death. I wish you were here to go along. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I will be taking someone with me but thinking about it makes me sick. I hate to also think of the hurt for the BF. not to mention that I know nothing about him and he may go nuts on me. I am so proud for you. I know it hurts but what a difference it is to handle things exposed as opposed to those things kept in the dark. That is when I go bananas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

jaysmom; would it make sense to point out marriagebuilders to OWH?

What a great idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so proud of you! GOOD JOB! Sounds like you got lucky that OWH was so understanding and supportive; bodes well for their chances of recovery, which in turn makes your chances or recovery better as well.

I think your H will come around; but I would severely caution you about spending too much time talking to him until he is willing to comply with your terms. You gave him the list, he knows what he needs to do if he wants a relationship with you. Don't settle for anything less.

That's all I'm going to say right now because I want to let that sink in for you.

(Except that the only thing he maybe could use from here if OW does indeed end the A is the thread about withdrawal on here - I can post it if he breaks it off with her) No contact at all is the only way for him to go as far as successfully ending the A; there is no way to manage a "friendship" after an affair.

God bless,
MSA

P.S. The Wal*Mart question from him had me laughing out loud!

Also, the only thing I would strongly caution about giving MB info to OWH, is that then you can have OW on here, and your FWH (hopefully F at some point), and then you cannot have that. You can't have OW lurking here; or any communication between OW and your WH obviously; think about whether you might want this to be a tool for your H someday soon, and if there's any chance that OWH and OW are on here, then it really doesn't work.

MSA

You know, I think WS's in this position are actually relieved when the cat's out of the bag. Living a lie for so long is very stressful to anyone that isn't a sociopath. So although he isn't happy about the light this is casting him in, he can now say "it's out of my hands"...

Happy 2006 ...almost...

Well i have to say you and my BF think alike! She told me yesterday...pack a bag and go...go for the long weekend. I just couldn't leave for the whole night though...but i was gone until after 11 pm last night, and i am gone tonight as well.

My cell phone was cut off today...and my home phone is cut off. ( the home has been off for 2 months...the cell he knew was going to be) but...this morning when he tried to call and it was off ...he freaked and made his mother come down to "check on us" "he was worried"...she told me before she even pulled out of our drive he had called her back "are they okay?" This from a man who swears to his BF he is thru. He wanted to know what we were doing...she told him...she didn't know. I think it will do him good to not be able to call to "check in on us" all the time...so he doesn't have to sweat it. i think he needs to worry where we are, what we are doing...whether i am leaving him.

i hope that is what i should do. I am a little worried. I am afraid he will claim i am taking Jacob from him...but why should i sit around waiting for him...HIS choice to leave not mine. And of course i am afraid that the A may still be going on. who knows, she kept it from her H this long without him finding out....what if he is a big push over and buys what ever she says?

I tried to get my H to give me his "phone he doesn't have" the other night when this happened...it started vibrating, so i KNOW it was her...but maybe her H made her call to tell him it was over...he would've been there at that time...and i expect she would do it whether she meant it or not...anyway...he wouldn't give it to me....he started his "what phone" crap with me again. since then i have hardly spoken to him...i did give him a heartfelt long...long...long...talk but again told him...he must agree to everything on the list...or no good. after that...we have only spoken 1 time. but because I am sticking to my guns and he can't get ahold of me.

I am sure he thought he could just come on down tonight and hang out...as he thought he could last night. His mom said "are you going down to your house" he said...pouting..."no their not home...she said they might not be" so tonight...i am sure he thought i would definitely be there...well guess what..

I hope that i am not doing the opposite of what i hope to be. He needs to think i am gone...that he lost me...he needs to realize he really screwed up BIG time.

I feel like my walk with God is weak right now. I feel weak myself...this morning was HARD. i cried uncontrollably and in front of Jake, but i have held it together for 4 months and thursday was a relief for me...but yet...i think down deep i thought maybe he would come home crying and begging. It almost feels like he just left again...the hurt is so intense. I just need an end...something good...soon.

I know God never puts more on you than you can handle...i just keep wondering...am i doing something wrong, not following God like i should, i feel 1000 miles away from Him, but i don't know what to do. I pray. pray. pray. feel like He doesn't hear me at times. This morning while praying...i couldn't even speak. I am just losing it. I hope i see a change for the better soon.

this evening i am okay...the thoughts of going home later kind of sicken me...but i suppose it is normal. it seems like looking back over the last 4 months...God was just living for me. i think back...and i know...there was no way i could've gotten this far without God just completely taking over my life for me. But now that things are where they are...why do i feel so horrible?

Oh well. maybe this week will be better.

and on a lighter note....the Walmart thing from my hubby...that is typical...he avoids anything and everything if he thinks it is going to turn heated...He has always been a big goof.

Jaysmom

Jaysmom,
It's okay that you don't know what to pray for and that you feel your walk with God is weak at the moment; we can't be on the mountaintop all the time... just knowing and believing and trusting God is there, and doing His will, is what is important. To be obedient, that we seek to be told in the end, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

And as far as He doesn't hear you? He does. In his letter to the Romans, Paul talks about not being able to speak during prayer - that is normal. Sometimes the grief, the pain, the hurt is just to great for words, the help we need is just to hard to express.
[color:"brown"] Romans 8:26-27

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
[/color]

Things are going to be okay. I know you were hoping for an overnight miracle or reaction from your WH. Maybe that isn't what is best for him or you right now; leave it in God's capable hands, and let His peace hold you the way He has thus far. Listen to "Jesus Take the Wheel" by Carrie Underwood; I love that new song - even if you don't like country, but you're down south right?

MSA

MSA,

you know i think it is so weird. About a month ago my H asked me if i had heard that song, he said he had seen the last part of the video and really liked it. Made me curious so i had to check it out. I felt like he wanted me to. Then i just LOVED it. It was my life at the moment. then the night all of this took place...i was crying and told him how God had lived for me...

that one night driving home...(before i had heard that song) i was crying so hard i couldn't see...and i said "john it was like the song said...Jesus take the wheel...he had to because i couldn't" he didn't say anything.

Last night...i came home...i turned my headlights off because i saw he had been to the house...hoping to see us...he left the lights on for us. He couldn't call me as you know...so i hope this is good medicine for him. Now he is alone with only himself.

His mom came back down this am. she said he kept getting up checking to see. He told her to wake him up (even though he is hardly sleeping) if we called or came in. I just felt it best to distance my self for a day or two. i will probably have to see him tonight. He called her again this am and asked her to "check" on us.

what is all of that about MSA? he seems to really need us, want us...but at the same time, not. He tells his BF he is thru, but gives me reason to think he isn't. Was it only pride talking to his friend or is he only wanting me to think we have a chance...????

I called OWH this am. He didn't say much at all...but she was there i could tell. He just yes and no'd me. he said there was NC between OW and my H. i told him i was praying for them, he said THEY had been praying for us. My MIL tried calling my H this am on "THE PHONE" but he has changed that # again. so that makes me think he did it because of wanting to continue contact with OW. MIL thinks it was defensive measure, and that he was afraid OWH might try contacting him again. could be...you know i am only going to think the worst...how can i not.

All this time though, he has just been stringing me along. She was NEVER planning on leaving her H...so why was he? He knew that...sometimes i thought he continued with her just to see if he could get her to. then i think...well he never planned on leaving me totally... right now i feel like he must've thought he was really in love...then i think about all the things he did to keep me there. calling me, coming by, giving half promises, getting back on medicine...see i am going crazy. NOTHING MAKES SENSE RIGHT NOW.

but this morning after praying...i don't know if God was telling me this or what...i started thinking...i told MIL that he sacrificed everything for OW. then after praying...i just kept thinking of that...but did he? No not really. He never really sacrificed anything if you think about it. moved out, living next door, Jay and I were there EVERYTIME he wanted to see us or Jay. He never gave anything up...he gave me enough to keep me there...but kept his A ongoing...He didn't did he MSA...He never had to sacrifice anything...I DIDN'T MAKE HIM. I have made this too easy...but i felt like i was doing what God asked me to.

I really feel as though OWH will see to it there will be no contact. I feel like she knows it has to be over or she will lose everything.

So now that my H doesn't have her...will he get out of the fog...is my keeping distance right? (we haven't spoke since friday am...this is at my doing...not his...he has attempted several times...but i have been gone )
will he realize he really loves me...will the feelings for me come back... he goes back to his Dr. 1/11, he is looking forward to it...he got his refill yesterday, he said he was asking her to go up on it. His misery this whole time what has that been...miserable because he couldn't really have her...or miserable because of what he was doing to us...? any take on it?

I will have to see him this evening...should i just keep distance and not say much?

Happy New Year! jaysmom

React how God leads you. Most MB'ers would tell you once NC is established (even if it isn't because your WH wanted NC) he will need YOU to meet his emotional needs and help him thru this period of withdrawal from the addictive effects of the A. The fog will BEGIN to clear, but it takes weeks or months of absolute No Contact with OW for that to really happen.

It's weird, but ending in A is said to be like going off an addictive drug - the chemicals it produces in your brain just make you want it back so badly.

I would say be there for him to talk to, but you share your own feelings too - that he hasn't sacrificed anything for you; you don't know if you can trust him again; he hasn't been honest with you about anything; he says he doesn't love you and wants to end it; you don't know how you feel... etc. "Being there for him" doesn't mean you have to forgive anything before he even asks you to! Indeed, he SHOULD have to work his way back, if you make this too easy for him it can happen again, or the original A can relapse.

Also, he's so curious about your whereabouts because he cares, but also he is probably worried you might do something crazy like take off with Jay and not tell him where you are, etc. He doesn't know WHAT you're thinking at this point!

He HAS to come clean with you, and with God...

Hapy New Year to you too!
MSA

MSA,

i don't know if i believe it is really over for them.. I think OWH is too big of a push over and what ever she says he will believe. please tell me he is not so stupid to believe if it is still on going?

My H said to me...2 nights ago he was not in contact with her. but i believe that like i believe i'll win a million one day. He stayed out a long time last night, and Jay sat at the window for hours watching for him...crushed me. He wouldn't go to bed, and when he saw him come i had to take him to his mothers to see him...maybe i shouldn't have but this is my son...

MSA...why does he continue this? I don't have proof that it is ongoing...and i honestly don't know what my heart is telling me...I am thinking of filing...soon. I don't want to continue seeing Jake suffer because of him.

I know he doesn't know how to act around me, that is obvious...he still hasn't answered any ?'s. He came down sunday...and tried to act as he had been all the time before i exposed.

What do i do? I just simply do not know. I can't keep letting him just hang out without answering anything for me. He has blamed me for everything, he hasn't aploginzed...well he has but he hasn't. What can i do. I want him to miss and want me...but how do i? I have been so hurt...and he wants to sweep it under the rug. Remember it's over according to his BF...but he has never told me....

can you see i am very confused today. Very hurt and just want this to end. If they are trying to continue...will God reveal it again soon? they neither want to completely lose their spouses...but yet they don't want to stop either. I guess i feel it is still ongoing...because my H hasn't been angry at me once. Only when he said he was thru to his BF, that was the worst i heard... i guess i expected him to really fly off the handle at me...that is why i think it may still be going on...i have no reason to think it...and OWH said there wasn't but who knows

Help...any advice today...my prayers getting weak! Really hurting and wondering what God is up to?

jaysmom

P.S. there can never be complete NC...he see's her 2-3 days at work....that may have been what happened when she broke down at church...they tried or she tried to end it but kept seeing him.

Oh yes there can!!! My FWH quit his job. Your WH will need to do the same; or arrange it so that he never calls on her (he's a supplier, right?) New territory or something needed... otherwise new job.

It bothers me that he hasn't come clean with you. I think the 180 list was custom made for you. You have done Plan A. You can't do Plan B because he lives next door and because of Jay. The 180 is a last-ditch effort. A lot of it you might have been doing anyway, but have you done #12, 14, 17, 25, and most of all #27???

That's your homework! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[quote]
The 180 Approach

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from their family members to convince them they are making a big mistake
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

http://www.divorcebusting.com./<br />
<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Also, if he claims no contact, you may want to provide him with the withdrawal info from this site. It may give him some insight into his own feelings.

If he is in NC and wants to work on the marriage, or have an honest relationship with you of any kind, he should be willing to be an open book.

I got some info out of my WH by letting him know that his dishonesty was the reason I couldn't put our M behind me and move on. During the relapse he was very dishonest. After I found out about the relapse, he was still living home because it was Christmas. He claimed he was not sleeping with OW. Finally he admitted that he was. That disrespect was the nail in the coffin when he moved out the second time. Not when you are sleeping in my bed...

MSA

MSA,

i have been trying to do most of those things without really knowing i was...i have lost almost 40 lbs during all of this...and he has noticed...but says nothing.

He still hasn't come clean to me, he is still in somewhat of denial...and i believe that they are still trying to keep it going.

Listen to this...he kept Jay yesterday..i came to pick him up after work.. i am trying to just be...you know...not say much etc...he says..."why are you so grumpy?" i am like ...OH MY GOSH!!!! i said...dear...i have invested love in someone for 11 years that just lied to me and cheated on me. he says...OH...really.

i try to drop it. He just keeps on and i can't take it...i told him...look YOU have cheated on me and Jay for the last 4 months with...***** and you have been caught...she has confessed to her husband in front of me...i heard it...and YOU apparently are the only one around who doesn't know what you are/have been doing.

He gets defensive. He still is in denial. then i left and about 2 hours later he just shows up, knocking on the front door. I said..what are you doing? he said Jay wanted me to come down.

this is soooo hard. I don't know what my next step is. I try to act like i am moving on..because i am trying to...HE JUST WON'T LET ME. I did tell him also...that i didn't appreciate him telling other people about our marriage and not talk to me about it. I said i deserve to know...before your BF does. he said what are you talking about. (He never told me he talked to his BF the other day.) i said you told him that you were thru with me...WHY WON'T YOU TELL ME THAT? he said...i never told anyone i was thru...i haven't told anyone anything about me and you.

i don't know what to think about him anymore MSA...i know BFH wouldn't lie...he just wants the best and i know that my H probably did tell him that...out of anger towards me.

MSA...this is so difficult because i am NEXT DOOR. This may have been resolved long ago if he didn't know where i was all the time. I have been staying very busy and gone alot...but it is hard with a 3 year old to be gone as much as is called for now.

i need boundaries...but what? He is paying our house payment...if i refuse him coming in...i think he will throw that in my face.

Why MSA is he being such a freak? why not come clean to me? He doesn't want to lose me and doesn't want an end to this M...i think that is fairly clear at this point...but he wants to do nothing to fix, or stay in it.

help...need suggestions. jaysmom

I think he isn't coming clean because he doesn't want to stop what he's doing and/or thinks you won't forgive him. Maybe if you play out for him what recovery would look like if he were being honest; that this isn't about you holding this over his head for the rest of his life, this is about you guys getting honest and healing, and fixing your family for J. Telling him of some of the things you have learned here about radical honesty, POJA, LBs, ENs, how marriages can be made better...?

well...msa...

he kept jay yesterday and then went out for only an hour or so ...then came back down to see us. BF said today...you know he couldn't say he was coming to see Jay because he had kept him all day...only one reason he keeps coming down when he has jacob all day...something to think about hmmm?

i decided to lay low for a while...let him come around as much as possible (which is every single day) and hang with us...he needs to be around his family...maybe he is very uncomfortable with me and needs to try and establish friendship, etc with me? i decided also and told him...i wasn't going to mention anything because he obviously wasn't ready to talk...but that at some point either way our M ended up...jay and i deserve an explanation, so eventually he will have to discuss matters.

keep praying...jaysmom

I will keep praying for you, I really hope him being around more is a good thing. IF he has broken it off with OW (or she with him) then I think it IS good. If NOT, then you run the risk of being his emotional security blanket and a lot more fence-sitting.

But hey, you exposed to OWH. That is major. Now I just wish that your H would come clean to you and want to recover his M. You can TELL him you & Jay deserve an explanation, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one though. I wish your H was willing to live a transparent life to you to PROVE that he will be accountable for his time, phone calls, schedule, etc so that you KNOW he COULDN'T be seeing OW. I wish he would do a NC letter to her.

MSA

Hey Mrs Stow!

Happy Friday to you! Thank goodness it is! I have been on here a while today trying to find things on "FOG" but i can't find what i wanted to know.

I know i have asked you before...but does the fog ever go away? does it ever clear?

I think my WH is coming around some. He has been at our house every night this week except monday. I think the exposing did some good anyway. Even if they are still trying to continue the A, their guilt will eventually consume them or....they will have to leave their spouses one right?

I think if they are continuing...they sure are brave...and it sure doesn't make sense to try and keep it up with their spouses...if they don't want them...they were exposed...go to each other if thats what you want...right?

well anyway...yesterday H was very sad acting...making me wonder if it's withdrawl...again...couldn't find anything much on that here but i haven't done alot of looking. he spends longer each day at home with us. Last night we just played games with Jay and he seemed as though he was just really worried or bothered but still wanted to be there (not like he was forcing himself to be there i mean) and he told Jay he would see him again tonight. He really seems to be trying.

I think he doesn't want to talk about it just yet. He just doesn't want to face it i guess...but he will have to sometime, or our M will be over. His choice.

we will see...i am hanging in there. We seem to get along just fine. he goes back to Dr. next week...i am going to give it a bit longer in Plan A...give the ADs time to kick in ( he will be going up in a couple of weeks...he has been on them 3 so far ) then if nothing changes...i will file, or move or something...something must get him to reality, if he can't do it ...maybe i haven't given it enough time...it has only been a week...

oh well...anyway...does the fog lift? does reality hit? and another ? did your H spend much time with your daughters after he left, and did he think he didn't love you? did he remove your pictures from his wallet, etc? did he really think he loved this OW? it is just so uncomprehendable to me...does the fog really do that to them? i guess i just need some advice on the fog? any help?

hope you have a good weekend...Jaysmom

Oh, yes, it lifts... with months of NC... my H spent some time with the girls after he left, took them places, and totally for a while thought he didn't love me. He ABSOLUTELY thought he loved OW, I had to hear it all the time, him choosing her over me & DDs. The fog absolutely really does that to them. Absolutely. As well as justifying it with "ILYBINILWY" (I love you but I'm not in love with you) which is code for "You don't make me feel the romantic adrenaline rush that this affair does." Explaining that love is a VERB does NO GOOD to someone in the fog. It's all about FEELINGS, not about doing.

I'm going to dig up 2 things for you to read - one on Withdrawal (so you can recognize the signs or show to your WH), and another from Dr. Harley on why they lie...

MSA

’FOG’ AND WITHDRAWAL by Suzet*

In my experience as a FWW, it’s possible for ‘fog’ to slip back from time to time during the withdrawal period, especially during early, intense withdrawal. Often early withdrawal and the ‘fog’ go hand in hand and it will be normal for your FWS to have a ‘foggy’ thinking pattern during this stage. The 'fog' lifts gradually as the withdrawal lessens and it will get better with time and patience.

An A IS an addiction and it does affect the brain chemistry of a WS/FWS. It is a feedback system where some behavior causes good feelings (chemicals) to be released and gradually you become dependent on those feelings. So thinking of the OP is sort of self-medicating when the FWS feels a little down.

It can take weeks to months for this to pass and that’s why No Contact is so hard because some of the residual feelings and response linger for a long time. With time, the "feelings" attached to remembering the OP will fade.

It has been suggested and even done that when the FWS start to really think of OP, that they call or talk with the BS. This behavior will start to replace one set of feelings and memories for another, sort of like quitting smoking. This is something you can discuss with your FWS.

LENGTH OF WITHDRAWAL AND EFFECT OF WIHTDRAWAL ON THE FWS

Withdrawal is not the same for each person and it affects each person differently. For some people, withdrawal is very long and intense, and some people don’t experience any withdrawal at all (no withdrawal is not very common, but it does happen to some FWS’s).

I believe the length and intensity of withdrawal depends on many factors such as the length and intensity of the A and the emotional involvement; the way the A ended and if there is still unresolved issues; personality; ‘sensitivity’ level of the WS etc. A good estimation of the time of withdrawal can be the length of the A. According to Dr Harley (see quote beneath) the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, but in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade. As I’ve said, it’s not the same for each person and every situation is different.

I think the time of withdrawal also depends if the WS were friends with the OP before it progressed to an A. It’s more difficult to recover from an A where it started out as friendship comparing to a situation where people start the A from the beginning (like a ONS) and have not yet get emotionally connected and learned to care for the OP.

IMO it also depends if the FWS suffers from depression or any other mental/psychiatric disorders. In my situation, ‘real’ recovery from my withdrawal started after I received medical help for OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder) with associated depression and anxiety. I also had unresolved issues regarding my childhood and myself at the time and I believe those things also had an influence on my personal recovery.


Quote:
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From Dr Harley’s Q & A column:

Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.


Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.


It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again.


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HOW TO ACT AND HELP THE FWS GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWAL

It’s important for your FWS to let his/her feelings out if she/he wants to heal. Bottling up and repressing of issues will eventually lead to depression. I’ve received the help from a wonderful, woman, Christian Counselor (who have also became a great friend and confidant of mine), but in spite of this I’ve developed depression and was put on anti-depressants. It will help if your FWS goes to a professional, outside, trusting, Christian person like an IC or pastor if necessary. If he/she starts developing depression, medication can be very helpful... The medication really helped me tremendously during the withdrawal period.

A MC is very valuable for the recovery of a M, but many times the help of an individual counselor (IC) or any other professional, outside person (like a pastor), can be very helpful too. The MC can be used to have one-on-one sessions with both the BS and FWS. An outside person is not emotionally involved and can help with personal recovery and to get feelings out. The IC can also address other personal issues the FWS or BS may have. I believe personal recovery and marital recovery goes hand in hand and sometimes it’s necessary to address personal issues first. A FWS in withdrawal don’t always have the courage to be totally honest and open in front of the BS about their feelings (out of fear that they will hurt the BS again) and this is the other reason why it’s important for the FWS to find a trusting outside person they can talk to.

It will also help if your FWS can read and post here. It will help him/her to get his/her feelings out. Support and help from experienced members here will also help him/her through this difficult time. While I was in early withdrawal, these boards also helped to clear my ‘fog’. Although I was still in withdrawal, these boards helped me realize that my ‘bond’ with OM wasn’t such a special and unique ‘friendship’, but in fact a very sinful and damaging emotional betrayal towards my dear H.

Here is some suggestion on how to help & support your FWS through withdrawal:

1. Be your FWS’s greatest friend and confidant. Encourage him/her to confide in you and create an environment & atmosphere that will allow him/her to feel safe and secure to reveal his/her innermost feelings to you. Maybe you can start to be honest with him/her about you innermost thoughts and feelings and in the process encourage him/her to open up towards you too without the fear that you will Love Bursting or criticize or judge him/her.

2. Be you FWS’s ‘sounding board’ during this difficult time. Whenever possible and whenever you feel strong enough, listen to him/her with empathy, understanding & care. Continue to communicate your negative feelings too, but do it without being judgmental or love bursting. I know this is a lot to ask and will still be hard to do sometimes, but you WILL receive the benefits, especially when both of you are further in recovery!

3. Realize that your FWS will go through stages and feelings of guilt, self-rejection etc. During this times, try to let him feel accepted, tell her that she made a mistake, but has decided to turn away and follow the right path. During times like this remind her that he is forgiven by both you and God.

4. Assure and tell your FWS that he/she must feel free to talk to you whenever he/she needs it of feels like it. Encourage him/her to speak to you whenever he/she feels ‘down’. If it feels okay with you, ask him/her about his/her feelings and show interest and concern about his/her feelings out of your own. As a FWW it was very difficult to overcome my own pain, loss and grief and on the same time dealt with the pain I've caused my H. I know it would have meant the world to me if my H could ask me about my feelings, without me initiating the subject.

5. If you FWS needs to talk and you feel it’s not the right time for you at that moment, have the courage to tell him/her that you really want to listen to him/her, but on another time when you feel stronger and ready to listen. At the same time your FWS must also have the understanding and care to allow you to be honest towards her too. This is really a give and take situation. Your W must also encourage YOU to speak to HER whenever you need it or feels like it. On this way both of you will help each other to heal and recover. On this way you will become each other’s greatest friends and confidants.

6. On a practical note: Plan events (holidays, concerts, movie nights, whatever) in the near future to attend together. It helps to give the FWS (and the BS) something positive to look forward to.

Remember, the pain ‘deserved’ for your FWS is real, and the healing to some extent really takes time. So, be patient with both you and your S and give it time and patience.

Symptoms of the Wayward Spouse and Recognizing Withdrawal

WITHDRAWAL, RECOVERY AND MEETING THE NEEDS OF THE FWS

Recovery starts as soon as there is NC with the OP. During this time the BS is advised to only fill the EN’s the FWS ALLOWS the BS to meet. This is so because the FWS is in withdrawal and won’t be able to concentrate solely on the BS and relationship. However, this will get better with time and as the fog starts to clear. Give it time for at least 6 months. During this time, don’t put pressure on your FWS with too much ‘relationship talk’. Give him/her some time and in the meantime, continue with a good plan A. No LBers. Also concentrate on yourself and do things you enjoy. As soon as your FWS is ready, he/she will start to open up towards you and you will start to notice some efforts from him/her. But give it TIME and PATIENCE. BE there for him/her when she needs you (the guidelines I have posted above), but try to keep things uncomplicated, unemotional, light and pleasant.


Quote:
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From Dr Haley’s Q & A column:
As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.


But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing.


Sometimes I tell spouses to just avoid each other until the withdrawal stage passes because all the effort to be kind and thoughtful is easily wasted until they start feeling better.


It's the stage of recovery after withdrawal that gives spouses the best opportunity to learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs and overcome Love Busters. Spouses should save their most tolerant mood for that stage, where they could both be receptive to each other's care. And that will be the subject of next week's column: Learning to meet each other's needs after an affair.


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Keep in mind that your FWS's conflict during withdrawal is internal and the BS should not take comments made by the FWS during this time personally. Try to convince yourself you are dealing with a sick charge if that helps you to remove yourself. Try to remember that the feelings the WS felt during the A and the feelings the FWS feel during withdrawal are real EVEN if they are based on an addiction to a fantasy.

Do not be surprised if one hour is good, one hour is bad, then one half day, then one day bad and good, and so one. The reason is the FWS is SLOWLY processing what happened. Every time a WS moves closer to realizing the impact of what they did or what they potentially did, it causes stress, which in turn causes the fog to settle in again, which in turn causes the FWS want to contact the OP. The mind cannot let us see the pain we caused all at once, it would be too overwhelming. Realize that wanting to initiate contact, or hoping that the OP will contact, or wishing for "accidental" contact will happen. This is a fact. It is not a rejection of the BS. Let your FWS speak openly about that - it is a way to help alleviate the stress/desire. A's thrive on secrecy. It do not thrive well in the light of day.

An A is a selfish, destructive, dishonest act. It’s said that the more "honorable" a person is, the deeper they fall into a seduction and therefore it makes sense that it is harder for a basically decent person to climb back out into reality.

FOR WS’s – GUIDELINES TO HELP YOU GET THROUGH WITHDRAWAL:

1. Keep yourself busy, although you may not feel like doing anything. Getting busy will keep your mind from wandering to thoughts of OP. Spend as little time alone as possible. Go to the movies, a concert or a play, whatever you enjoy...as long as you gets busy! Post here, pray, call old friends you may have been neglecting or call current friends you spending too little time with.

2. Get involved with ministry/community service/charity or anything similar. Helping others will take your mind off yourself.

3. Go to your Medical Practitioner and/or Counselor and get antidepressants if necessary. Don’t hesitate to seek professional and medical help if you feel it's necessary.

4. Show love to your S, even when it feels a bit unnatural, fake or forced at first. The acts of love became more real and heartfelt the more they are repeated. When you actively show love and receive feedback from your S, it will become pleasurable to repeat those things. The more you do them, the more real they will become. And spend time with your mate. Do something different. Get out of the rut. Develop new interest. Have fun together. Work at becoming friends again.

5. Make a conscious effort to avoid things that will remind you positively of the OP. Whether it's romantic songs or movies that you enjoyed, hobbies or pastimes you had in common, or just dwelling mentally on conversations or times you enjoyed together...you must do your best to avoid dwelling on them. Thoughts of the OP will pop up and the temptation is to daydream about them at length but the good news is, as you AVOID CONTACT with the OP and having NO CONTACT, these things will fade. The OP itself will become more of a blurry memory. When these memories come up, do whatever you have to do to stop thinking about them. If the OP pops up in your mind, turn your thoughts to happy memories of times with your spouse. Pick up a book, watch a TV show, read the Bible, call a friend, just try hard not to dwell on them. Again, with this, you will find it easier to do as time passes and there is no contact.

6. Constantly remind yourself of the great things about your spouse, and the not-so-great things about the OP. Be honest with yourself. There are areas that you KNOW your spouse is superior to the OP. If you can't think of any, grab on to ANY positive thing you can think about in regards to your spouse. Think of the things that attracted you to your spouse initially, or that you've always liked or admired or respected about him/her and focus on that. Think on these things. Remind yourself of things about the OP that were definitely negative. Magnify them if you have to. Remind yourself that your spouse have it over the OP big time in a couple of major ways e.g:

i) Your spouse didn't indulge in an A with a married man/women.

ii) They love you enough to want to stay with you and stand by you, in spite of the pain you caused him/her.

The above two things alone show you the kind of love and integrity from your BS.

7. Remind yourself constantly that love is something you DO, not something you feel. Love is meeting someone's needs. Love is action. Feelings come and go...especially fantasy-based and fog-based feelings.

8. Develop a good & strong support system which can help & encourage you to maintain NC and stay committed to it. You can accomplish this by taking the following steps:

i) Be honest & open with your BS. Your S must become your greatest friend and confidant. Your S is the key and most important person who can help you to stay committed and maintain NC with OP.

ii) If you have close friends of the same sex who are trustworthy, religious and set a high importance on M and the well-being of both you and your S, then confided in them. The same goes with family members. On days you feel ‘down’, weak and/or vulnerable to contact OP, you can contact them in stead and go to them for support, go out for a cup of coffee with one of them or whatever.

iii) Seek professional help & support. Go to a trusting, outside person like a Christian counselor/therapist or pastor. Make sure the person you seek out is religious and values the importance of marriage in general and the importance of fidelity in a marriage.

8. Know that there is HOPE! There is definitely hope for your marriage and your feelings for the OP can fade. Keep trying, and don't beat yourself up when you have mental and emotional setbacks, because you will. Just look at the big picture and keep going. Realize that recovery is not necessarily about strength, but most importantly the choice and realization that NC is the only way to go. It’s also about the desire to regain your own integrity in spite of your weakness and temptation to contact the OP during withdrawal and early recovery.

A Dr. Willard Harley quote:
............................................................
Should an affair be revealed?

I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.

Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hel]. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
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Also this from Dr. Harley:

Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male). His friend and his wife do almost everything together recreationally. He wrote to say that I was dead wrong about his particular spouse, and that my advice that friends outside of marriage should be same-sex friends was paranoid. He trusted his wife, and she could spend as much time with this friend as she wanted to. My response was for him to write me again in three years and let me know if he felt the same way after he discovered that his wife and best friend were having an affair (be sure to read my Q&A columns on recreational companionship, Part 1 and Part 2).
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thanks for the post! Lots of info. much appreciative. i only scanned over for now but will come back and read more later.

I am thinking it probably isn't withdrawl. I think he is still seeing her. I don't have that gut wrenching feeling but i just don't think it is over yet. although...they sure are brave. I am from NC and alienation of affection was born here....and i have been reading up on it!!!

You know after i prayed this morning i was thinking about you and your situation and remembering one of your posts telling me how similar you thought our situations were. I realized at that point that God had sent you to read mine. I thought...he knew i could benefit from you and you could help me through this....THANK YOU! not that i am glad you had to go thru it but....you have recovered and your M better now and getting better.

i just don't get it. why do they insist on keeping their spouses? at least your H thought he loved her and wanted to be with her...not that that was better but my H just doesn't make sense to me...or her either. maybe they are planning something? who knows?

my H has spent everynight with us...at least 2 hours each evening. Last night, he wasn't home when i got there, he came in around 8. then comes down from his mothers right after getting in. He changes into sweats from what he wears out. He never wants me to see him in his "new" attire. He is wearing things i used to beg...i mean BEG him to wear...and he would say...i don't like that...well guess what...he does now, but i only see him in them if i happen to be at his moms when he comes in or something. it's just weird. He was in a good mood last night, which makes me think...they still are together. My BF went by where she works and she was there but left between 4-6. doesn't that look suspicious? But does she not fear that i might tell her hubby again? and what is up with him....does he just accept it and oh well it?

oh msa...i think i am going to have to go to the big guns. why...well because i just am not sure i can handle his crap anymore. I mean...as my dad said yesterday...what is he doing? either stay with me or let me go!!! AMEN DADDY! he comes down giving me the impression he wants to try and come home, work on us, be a family. but then does nothing to come home, work on us, or be a family. I am a good girl. Been a good wife. good mom. good friend. just plain good. not tooting my own horn or anything but i deserve some good in return not a half *ss husband. He was always so good to me, well he isn't anymore.

crappy dad, husband, friend, son, co-worker. just not the same man he was. i can't make him and apparently God is having trouble as well. oh...i am venting today.

MSA...i am thinking of filing or moving one. i am going to have to for my own sanity. My son watches for him out the window and he is giving him the impression he will come home. i can't handle another hit from him. i just can't. Jay can't ...not fair to my baby. he wants this woman...he can have her. (i think i told you about her tag saying spoiled 1....GAG!) (and he claims he left me because of my spending habits...he always called me spoiled...but in an affectionate way...he would always say he spoiled me...and he did.. but please....HE DOESN'T KNOW SPOILED UNTIL HE STAYS WITH THAT!!!)

he would have to work 3 jobs to keep her up!! her oldest daughter...not too many years younger than he is!!! and the youngest 16...she won't get child support but for 2 more years...my H is near bankrupt. that is what she is keeping her H for!!!!!

today my MIL came down and told me she thought his problem is mainly mental. I agree to a degree, but come on...the A has to end before you can fix anything..mental or what.

i just am not sure what God is telling me to do now. I feel like i have been deserted. i know God is with me...but i can't figure out what he wants me to do.

MSA...he will miss me won't he? he misses me anyway, but maybe i should do as you did...to make him realize this isn't and hasn't been a game, this is our lives he has been just tossing to the side.
Jay and i left for the rest of the weekend and came down to stay with my step-dad ( he is currently serving active duty..Army, Ft. Jackson S.C.--about 2.5 hours from home...he's got it made...nice townhouse...)

didn't tell H i was coming...he said last night...see you tomorrow...thought it would do him good to know we are not just sitting there waiting for him to give us 5 mins of his time. I told MIL this am we were coming down, let him sweat it about us...he won't call (doesn't know i have a new cell, and he would not call my mom or s-dad)

you think if i leave...that the fog will lift? do you think as much time as he spends with us if he thought he had lost me, i mean really really lost me....it would make a difference? He would miss me wouldn't he? i mean why else does he come around SOOOO MUCH? any other suggestions? JAYSMOM

God absolutely puts people in our lives even before we need them sometimes! I have NO DOUBT about it.



Oh yes, he will miss you when you are out of his life. The trick is to make him see that without actually making it happen long-term! Filing for D is dangerous because it gets the situation very political/financial/emotional/legal etc... just all charged up which you don't have as much of right now.

What about the "Dobson" letter - the opening the cage door, I am moving on letter - followed up by some new ground rules for him (like not "hanging around the house" etc) - telling him that the two of you need to start preparing for D, since it looks like that's where this is headed. If he looks at you funny when you say that, you can remind him that HIS dishonesty and choices are choosing divorce; separated people aren't separated just for their health - it's a trial to make sure they want to be DIVORCED from each other. Throwing out some concepts that eventually you will need to disentange from each other's lives because you will EVENTUALLY want to start dating etc... and getting him to realize that this "dropping in all the time" thing at the house won't fly with your new husband, Jay's stepdad. That type of thing - don't overplay it, just a comment or two here or there maybe...

What do you think?

MSA

i did think about that. the letter i mean. its funny, my BF and i went last week took our kids to Mcdonalds to play and just hang out so we could talk and i actually took the "love must be tough" book in and showed it to her.

she made me bring a notebook with me and said...i'll help you start a letter to H and we had planned to do that but didn't really get much done. she looked at the book for a while and thought it was a good idea too.

i just am not sure how much good it would do. He just shows up. i have told him before he shouldn't just come down, etc....but that has been a while back and he was more in the fog then. Now that it has been exposed maybe things would be different...i dunno? i guess what i am saying is i can do the letter, but i think he will just shrug it off as me trying to "get him to come home" or something...he would just in a few days start coming around again...if he didn't just continue doing it anyway. My point being....HOW do i do the letter and put my foot down and show him i mean it? he did take the SAA book and i am worried he will think i am just doing something from it ...he has the contract...and he knows what i want him to do...but i don't know how to take a stand behind it.

i know it sounds like i am being a weenie and maybe i am. i want to do whatever it takes to fix our M. my feelings for him are definitely not the same and moving on and without him doesn't terrify me like it did. but being a product of divorce myself and having a very difficult time growing up and even STILL trying to please MY parents ( H saw this and it killed him...he commented all the time about how hard this had always been on me and how it wasn't fair i had to lie to one and cover to another just to keep peace between my parents...HE ALWAYS hated it for me...that is why i am so boggled about his actions now)

i told him...the day i exposed...your convictions of keeping jay away from alcohol are as strong as mine about divorce. I NEVER ever wanted to put a child through this and HE KNEW THAT!!!! he knows and even has commented to me during all of this he didn't want to have to pull jay back and forth...he will say "it's not jacob's fault" (darn right it's yours....i think well...dear it's not MINE either...did you forget that?)

anyway...my whole point and question is...i don't want to be a bully. i don't want to seem like i am "making him pay" i just don't want to seem anything but TO THE POINT...

so how do i put my foot down about keeping him from doing all of the fence sitting and cake eating he is doing. HOW DO I MAKE HIM REALIZE....i just might be thru with him. HOW do i get him to be broken and see...you can't play with our lives and just waltz right back whenever HE feels like he is ready to be H and daddy again. How do i get away from the "oh i was just depressed, i didn't know what i was doing....i am on medicine now...i am so sorry, it will never happen again...SPEECH)

I can say...if you want to visit with Jay you have to take him with you...and then i can see what will be next....either...1. he will take him back to his mothers without commenting and acting a little defensive..."OKAY" ...then after a day or two just ease time back in at home with me...spending more and more...THEN 2. he will start an argument about..."well i am paying for this house it is mine...i have every right" or 3.. and lastly head down...pitiful feel sorry for me...i am just a bad person, bad H, bad father...which guilts me into worrying about his mental state and what he could do....

YOU see i can't win with this man. He really is the love of my life, a wonderful H, father, man in general. but he is and has been mental. He is just mental , ( i do say lovingly). BE A MAN...everyone says...fess up and do what your gonna do.

but he doesn't. what is up? i know he just cannot bear to think i will leave...but i have told him...i will leave if you don't ever fess up and come clean.

I gotta put something behind what i have been saying and what my contract says...like i did with the exposing don't i? he didn't think i would ever tell OWH, so i have to put something behind my contract too, but what? think about it...and give me what you got!

gotta go shop...one good thing about my parents being divorced...my mother is still haunted by the guilt...(it was her fooling around...she did marry him and he is GREAT, i love my step parents very much...but i always wished...my parents were together...my mom still apologizes to my dad even to this day...sometimes...but she still suffers from the guilt to this day...she still blames my dad to me...even though i know better and my father never told me anything...) any way...back to the good...the guilt kills her still...so she buys me pretty much anything...

ahh...maybe i shouldn't let her...but if it makes her feel better...i'll let her...she's got money to blow and i have things to get...

let me know what you think i should do....JAYSMOM

You have to mean what you say in the letter. It's not about being manipulative - it's about being DONE with him, it's about moving on, it's about surrendering trying to control what he's going to do. You have to be ready to stand behind it - he will sense that you are if you really are. Don't do the letter if you aren't there yet. You are letting him know that this is TOO PAINFUL for you to continue to endure. It's not about "I won't" so much as "I just can't"... make sense? That's what will be scary to him.



You need to have a PLAN of moving on that you can get him to believe in. For example, imagine he wasn't making your house payment... where would you live? How would you pay for it? How much child support can you expect (there are online calculators to help with this)? Who will be your attorney for the divorce? What type of visitation schedule will you work out? How will you divide the assets? Maybe these are things he needs to see you thinking about for reality to hit him? At least the "where will you live" part. As I said yesterday, the rest of it can get very emotional/legal/political/upsetting... and is best left out if possible for now. But he needs to see you might just MOVE ON. That is what will scare him into coming to his senses I think.


Boy, can I relate. It's a difficult argument, dealing with such a person, believe me I know.

Response to #1 - Yup, take him to your Mom's. I'll come get him at 3 o'clock. (Change the locks to keep him from backsliding on this?)

Response to #2 - Well maybe a judge needs to decide how this will work with the house then. I thought you wanted Jay to stay in his home, if that's not the case maybe I better start looking for an apartment.

Response to #3 - (recognizing this as the clear manipulation that it is) I'm sorry you feel bad about yourself right now. Jay needs and wants to spend time with you, he loves you, what time should he plan on?

You have to decide ahead of time what the deal is going to be beforehand, so that however he reacts doesn't affect how things are going to work. i.e. if parenting time is going to be at his Mom's house, fine. If at your house, fine. But decide in advance. I don't think he should be coming & going, even if he is paying the mortgage. Him stopping that would be the point where you would need to go file for separation or divorce, so that you knew how much $ you could RELY on.

Thoughts?
MSA

Monday again. why can't i have my old life back? i want to work 3 days a week and come home to my loving H and son after i get done.

hey MSA. i feel like Ross from FRIENDS today. HA!

Jay and I had a great weekend. i hated having to come home. My mom dropped us off last night and she had not been gone more than 5 mins. and 'knock' 'knock'.

H was kinda ill last night. Friday he was in a happier mood, thursday...grouchy....everyday it is something different. that is what makes me wonder about withdrawl or is it his medication, or just that he is an adulterer (spelling looks funny???), oh well you know what i mean.

if it was withdrawl i would think he would want to speak about things...then again..."what girl?", "what phone" God help me!

i just didn't feel like foolin' with him much last night but i was trying to grin and bare it...until he said again (as he has everyday for 2 weeks) "i have to go back to the Dr. Wednesday" finally i said...yes and you need to be honest with her...do you want me to go with you?

No. ( just a plain no.) i said okay. He said again...gotta get some more "fruitloop" medicine. I said honey...why do you keep saying that...there is nothing wrong with it. You make it out to be awful...it happens. I said you can't help that your sick...(well that was the wrong thing to say apparently)

"i am not SICK" (i wish i had've thought in time to say...well when you come running back saying you were sick you didn't know what you were doing...but i didn't)

i said...okay then your not sick...but i know you love me and jay and if you were in your "right" mind you would've never done what your doing to us.

Nothing. i got up angry and walked off. i just can't stand him being around without talking about and when something is brought up him still denying. TOTALLY KILLING ME!!!! i am so beginning to just feel nothing and care very little about him. my feelings are shutting down and the thoughts of someone to love me the way i deserve to be...

like i said though...he was rather ill anyway. he was mad i had not called to tell when i would be home...but he didn't exactly admit it..i knew that was alot of it. When he got ready to leave i asked him..."what do you want from me?" nothing. i said...think about it before you respond, and don't be ugly about it...asked him again. both times he just answered nothing (but not angry or anything...just simply stated) then i said...fine ...."then let me go" he turned his back and shut the door.

i opened and followed out the front porch.....i asked why do you come down here..."i come to see a brother, but i won't come anymore.."i said then john...let me go... you are so finished with me...let me go, i cannot do this anymore." he turned, never said a word and walked away. i said..."you never thought i would tell her H, but i did...you don't know what i will do...i can move on without you" he just threw his arm in the air and kept walking.

i wonder...hmmm...is he still in the A. everyone i ask...BFs, MIL, my mom, dad, everyone...says no way. SHE wouldn't...she would be too afraid of her H finding out. but hmm...she was SO VERY TORN UP at church and confessed to her H about it...but then kept it going. Maybe they prepared for me to tell him...maybe her crying and bawling was just part of the plan...in case i tell.

but then what is he hanging around me so much for...? NOTHING MAKES SENSE...I AM DEFINITELY GOING CRAZY!!!!

i am going to have to be very tough and draw some lines. He can claim he is coming to see Jay and i know he is...but he could take him to his mothers...he stays to see me. BF said today..he can't call anymore..now take his visitation away from him. "if he can't spend time with you...then what" she said your gonna have to make him work for it.

what do you think? later! jaysmom

I think I agree with your best friend... I don't know.

I think the A is ongoing. He's a vendor and she's the purchaser, right? So they email at work, right? Instant messages? Even a secret cell or on the work phones? I mean, let's face it, they have ways to communicate throughout the day that you and her H aren't privy to, am I correct?

He just doesn't SOUND like it's over... I mean, why not confess. A normal course of events would seem to be that the two of you discuss what her H told her, what she told him, etc etc... this happened between my H and I all the time. It was very painful to hear, but he always confided in me. I just can't understand his denial continuing!

I don't want him to think you have given up completely, just that he needs to ADMIT and make a CHOICE.

Think more about that Dobson letter???

Did you get a chance to read what Harley said about exposure/denial as I posted above?

MSA

MSA,

i am with you sister! don't you think my H is just looney? i do. again last night...here he comes, stays his usual 1-2 hour visit and leaves. He was more his old self last night. he seemed more relaxed and comfortable with himself.

oh i don't know. I wonder if the A is still ongoing...i like you think it still may be...but then again....there are signs it is not too.

the reason he doesn't confess...goes back to the fact i think, he thinks...i will leave. In his mind i mean. i think MSA, he just can't accept it himself. Honestly, i am NOT making excuses for my H, but he really has been very mental. Really. He has really put a scare in me and the ol' MIL a few times. He has a very strong family history of bipolar and personality disorders. Again not making excuses but i know that he has been suffering lately and this A has only made things WORSE!!!!

i thought about the letter, alot. but i don't think it will do any good. I have given him 2 cards in the past that have pretty much summed alot of things...and i just don't think the letter will be big enough punch.

if the A is still ongoing what do i do? i can find out and tell OWH again...but really would it matter. apparently he is a big pushover and believes what-ever. she still has the same job and her cell is the same (bf called it the other day...she is so into busting them) and her H told me the night i told him...she may have to change jobs and cell #. When i briefly spoke with OWH 2 days after exposure ( he was nice but didn't say much...she was right there or daughter one) he did tell me...they were not in contact with each other...but of course she would say that...but wouldn't she be afraid her H would be checking cell, etc?

Maybe it is possible they planned for this? but if so...why hang on to me. why not be like your H and profess his undying love for her...why not LET ME GO? why come down everyday and hang out and fix my car and leave the light on when he knows i will be late? why 'PLAY' the role to an extent but continue the adultry. same for her. why not run off with who she thinks she loves...if that be the case?

if they are then what? if they are, the fact that i exposed is making things harder right? i mean it doesn't always end immediately after exposure and i knew that...so they could be trying...to keep it up...but if so...

it won't last long right? the guilt and the hiding and worrying about her H and children finding out...that will consume her at least right?

H goes back to Dr. tomorrow. she will increase dosage and maybe in a couple more weeks...things will be better...or i will be in a home.

i'll let you know if anything new happens...jaysmom

Yes, he is just hanging on... why not run off with her? Because he realizes THAT isn't realistic either... my H professed that he thought he was in love with OW, but he never left me . He emailed, called or stopped by almost every single day. I never initiated any contact at all, and I always knew what he was up to... he didn't want to leave me either, just like your H doesn't want to leave you. He wants to HAVE HIS CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.

HE is a fence sitter.

The letter still could work if it really has the right tone to it.

As far as busting them cheating? Some MBers have just started a network where people who live in a geographic area volunteer to but WS's... delivering flowers, pizza, camera in tow. So if you are interested in finding out if there is a volunteer in your area, I will look. Did you say you are in N Carolina? Do I have that right???

Also, don't be so sure that her H is a pushover. He may just be trusting like I was. Or he may not know what to do. Or he may believe her. Or they may be going thru lots of turmoil right now. You just don't know if you aren't talking to him. I would keep that connection up right now, it will undoubtedly come in handy. I'm surprised he never contacts you to see if you suspect anything.

Let me know what's going on; if there is an opportunity to bust him. Does he have a regular route for work, or take "business trips"?

MSA

Yes...he has a regular route. He stops at her store every Friday and Saturday and every other Thursday...(i can't remember if he goes there tomorrow or not??? i think not). She works at a grocery chain, but has NOTHING to do with his job at all. he does not have to go through her, talk to her, etc...that has to do with his job. he is usually in the store around 2 hours or so.

I just talked to my BF and she wants to bust them as much as me...but she did say today...what good will it do? kinda got me down. she said...you know he hasn't confessed anything...that means...he didn't want it to end...so what do you want out of him?

well...dang...just knock me out. He is my H who i love and have a child with. I don't want our M to end...but everyone thinks i am a fool...even my friends now. they say...just move on...you can do better...tell my heart that and the last 11 years of my life...and my little boy.

No i can't MAKE him. i don't think...

oh i don't know...i am just losing it. should i just leave and throw in the towel?

i am down today...

yep i live in N. Carolina...Asheville to be exact. Anyone want to help me out...send them my way...HA!

he doesn't want to lose me...i have said it...it is obvious...but why doesn't he want to keep me?

maybe i should do the letter...???? i just don't think it is big enough...got any other suggestions? jaysmom

one other note...about OWH...he hasn't been able to contact me due to my cell being out of service. i have a new one now (the # i gave him was the old and it was cut off the day after i exposed.)

when i called him, he didn't act like he wanted to talk. he only yes and no'd me. told me they, yes they were praying for us. he only answered my one or 2 questions and i was so uncomfortable because he seemed like he didn't want to speak to me that i just let it go. i could hear someone in the background so it was either her or daughter (which he did NOT want to find out..he made it clear that night) anyway he was nice but...didn't say much. i asked if they were in contact he answered NO not at all.

so now i am afraid to contact him unless i have real reason to. I have thought about telling my H i was going to call him or OW just to get some answers to my ?'s...but i don't think he would care.

i don't say anything to him about the situation any more. he just comes down every night...even after keeping Jay all day...like yesterday. I went by the store she works and so did BF earlier in the day and she wasn't there. i took it to be a possible good sign...if she were off...my H wasn't with her..at all...he had Jay. as you know they planned their Wednesdays in the past because they were off together and he refused to keep Jacob.

i have stopped saying anything ...because i feel like i am talking to a plant. i get more reaction out of my cats when i talk to them. He is like a freakin' teenager rebelling against their parents, strung out on drugs or something. i am just getting tired of all of this crap.

God is working and has been...but doesn't he see...that i am just losing strength and i don't care anymore to fight?

i remember you saying to me...you didn't know what God was doing at the time you filed papers. I think i am getting there MSA. I don't understand what God is doing..i thought he wanted me to work and hang on...why go through all of this for our M to end?

oh well...BF just called and is staking out her store...she is there and my H is next door getting his hair cut...will let you know if she see's anything. Jaysmom

You are not a fool. You have hope. You have to have hope. I think you are NOT crazy to hang on to that hope. I have a lot of hope for you guys. This all takes time. You love him, you have history together, and you have a son together... no matter what anyone says you are right to FIGHT.


You don't need to stop loving someone to stop tolerating their behavior. I loved my husband when I filed for divorce, but I could NO LONGER go on that way.


It's natural to have up & down days. I did not go on anti-depressants during WH's A, but afterwards I do take them sometimes, and you may want to consider it if the feeling persists. In Michigan we have had like almost 20 straight days of no sun... so it's a wonder the entire state isn't on Prozac.


I will check on the area with the Affair Busters and let you know.

He doesn't think it's going to come to that somehow... he still thinks he can figure out a plan to get himself out of this hairy sitch.

You won't know unless you try. Also, you can't really Plan B with him next door. You can make sure your boundaries are enforced... I have very mixed feelings about him hanging around the house so much when he won't be honest, but maybe if you talk enough and get close enough he will disclose the truth. Does he drink at all? Loose lips sink ships, you know.

MSA

You should make sure he has your new contact info.



You may very well have caught him when he could not talk freely. Have you thought about seeing him at work again? I certainly would if you come up with any new evidence. If they indeed are praying for you and want your M saved, it would be nice if OW would confirm for you the nature of her relationship to your H. That is maybe asking too much though, from a liar who probably thinks she is in love with your H.


Now how can he be so sure? The best I can answer, even now, is NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Is he with her 24/7????? I would never say No, not at all. How the heck can I know anything with 100% certainty? How can he?


Oh, I think he would be petrified if you really talked to OW. Especially if the A really has ended. He might act like he wouldn't care, but that's just a ploy to deter you from doing it.


You can't make him talk if he won't tell the truth... just make choices that shape his behavior...


His ways our not our ways; we just don't always see what God is doing at the time. But we just have to have faith and trust Him... and I know you do.


Well?? Did she find out anything? You have a great BF. (Be careful, be aware that can be Best Friend as I know you mean, or Boyfriend as I know you don't mean!)

MSA

well MSA..i have some proof that the A is ongoing. although..i don't know what to do with what i have.

my best friend hung out and waited but OW never left work. my H was in the parking lot across the road just sitting. I know he was waiting on her. so she decided to drive across and make sure it was him. Yep, sure was. he was sitting right by the road and saw her...must've spooked him and when she turned around they ended up passing one another. she went to pick up her daughter and about 30 mins. later...came back but didn't see him.

OW was still at work. she went in and shopped and then i stopped by..(after work..i just wanted to look at what i was replaced by and what was more important than Jay).

she saw me (i had jay..she knew me because of him i am sure of) and walked off. she would not make any eye contact with me, kept looking down, she was talking on her cell and i am sure it was my H.

so after i left i called my friend. she suggested i call OWH....so i did. Mistake. he very politely asked me not to contact him again. said they were not in contact ( like you...how can he be sure...yes they are or my H is stalking her) anyway...he said he appreciated me telling him before but he wasn't comfortable talking about it with me and would rather me not contact him. I said i was sorry that i was just trying to fix my marriage. He said he wished he could change my situation but that they were fine. I said well okay..glad for you but i did tell him about my H being over across the parking lot sitting. He didn't act like it even phased him.

he trusts his wife obviously. she must have him snowed. but i did make her very uncomfortable. if she thinks she loves my H and my H loves her, why worry about the spouses? why would she keep lying to her H. she is making him believe it was nothing and that their M is under the fix. so what is that all about?

I am so miserable today.

H came down, of course, last night. I didn't mention my friend seeing him, he didn't either. I didn't say anything. he asked me what was wrong.

'WHAT THE HE**' What does this fool think is wrong?

i told him...you know it's funny. Your messed up mind doesn't make you steal, rob a bank, murder, doesn't keep you from working....only makes you cheat on me.

he gets up ...too heated you know...to leave and i followed him out and said...you cannot have your wife and son to visit after you come home from doing your w*ore. (keeps walking) i said...get the papers...i am done....

i said...you chose it remember. you chose (and i always say her name for the affect) over us remember that.

he just kept walking.

so now what? i've got a H who is still in the full blown A. OWH who choses to stick his head in the sand. No help. the exposure didn't help. it just made them work a bit harder. maybe see a bit less.

he must really believe he loves her. i can't change that. doesn't it hurt him that he sacrificed his family for her...but she won't? doesn't that throw up a flag? or does he even care.

He can't live without me, but he doesn't realize it. He thinks he can. thinks he isn't "in love" with me...but knows he still loves me.

do you have any suggestions because i really feel like i have fought the fight and lost and now i am facing...the big D, for sure. why...not because he is filing but because i cannot tolerate his emotional and mental abuse to me and my precious son. divorce...because i chose to not be used and abused, and because there is hope that God will send someone to me and Jay who will truely love and care for us the way we deserve.

sighs....i am a good person for trying right? will he ever see the love i have had...will he see how hard i fought for our M? will it ever matter to him?

Jaysmom

Jaysmom, some day when this is all said & done, he will be very very sorry for abandoning you & Jay for OW.

Why does he do this? I still think he thinks he can cake-eat.

So he leaves when things get heated and you say you're done.

Does he call you later then and want to "talk about it"?

Have you ever seen an attorney?

Are you going to follow thru on your threat that you are done with him, or will he see it as a bluff?

I don't want you divorced, but you may need to start thinking of the particulars if you were to file - who will your attorney be, will you stay in the house, how much child support will he be required to pay, are you entitled to spousal support/alimony, and so on. How long does a D w/ children take in NC?

Although many hear would disagree, filing may be necessary, and will most likely put you back in the driver's seat. You may also end up divorced. You need to mean it if you do it.

Of course you're a good person for trying; he knows the love you have for him - I think he's taking advantage of it now though.

What do YOU want to do?

MSA

i needed to hear that. that he will be very sorry. I think that inside me...i know it, but i am in the middle of this mess and blindsided. He will be sorry. to a certain degree i think he already is, but then...a new day starts and he does the same thing he is doing.

Last night he came down again. No he doesn't call me to "feel me out" after the heated conversations....he doesn't know i have a new cell, and we have no home phone. He ALWAYS called before. called in the morning on my way to work. if we got in a heated discussion or argument...called later to apologize. this of course all before i exposed to OWH.

since then he has not mentioned anything. Never apologized for anything. Acts basically like a freak to me. Just wants to pretend nothing happened or IS happening. comes and goes...talks to me like we are the best of friends...on friendly terms. Not H and W things.

before i exposed, around Christmas, he had started getting flirty with me and as you know...was very much so on Christmas Eve. but this could've been because i had started dangling things i knew in his face...and at that point he knew i was on to who OW was without a doubt. maybe it was his way of trying to keep me from telling OWH.

which backfired on me anyway. Poor fool. they carry on and he thinks she is faithful. she cried and pleaded and he said..it's okay...and she still has her mansion on the hill, her H with all the $, kids set for life, and my H on the side.

while Jay and i suffer. suffer. my H is out buying new clothes, toys, gifts for her etc...while Jay and i struggle to buy food. He pays the house, electricity, and cable. thats it. I pay Jays preschool, my car, groceries...cell...(his cell, that everyone has the # to..well i did until i had them recently cut off)( he has given no one, even his own mom, the "cell he doesn't have" it is strictly for OW only...even calls his mom from a pay phone..just so she can't get #...sick isn't it?)

Last night he came in...i was changing in the bedroom...he walks right back first thing without stopping...i think he had seen me in the window, but by the time he got back there i was clothed..."whats the matter?" i am like ...nothing. thinking you are such a POS!

i kept to myself...he senses the change. i can hardly be around him. before he left...i just casually mentioned..oh i have made some calls and got an estimate on child support for Jay...i gave him the $$$$ and he didn't say anything...as usual getting too much for him...and i said...are you planning on selling our home or what?

Now get this MSA... i then said...quite frankly i don't know how you will make that with everything else you have to pay...what are you planning on doing? selling our home...what? this will kill you...it did me..

"i dunno"..."i haven't thought about it"....OMG!!!!!!

i said..you haven't? well you have had nearly 5 months to think about it ...looks like you would have some kind of an idea...don't cha think? i then told him...look (and i think you'll be proud of me)

i love you and want this marriage. i have never wanted it to end...look at our son...i want the best for him, he is my life. i said...but i refuse to stay in a marriage with you while you continue in this affair...not gonna do it anymore. it's not what i want...because i want to fix this, but i will not tolerate you doing this to us any longer.

as you may guess...he is going out the door and comments only to when i say ongoing A...i said to him yes...you and i both KNOW it is the truth...don't EVEN try to argue or say anything.

i said...everyone is giving up on you..."i don't care",...well the one you should care about is climbing up your back right now...he is giving up...you need to think about that...everything you and i do..is a reflection on him and it is irreversible. by that point...he was out the door.

i don't know if it does any good or not. my prayers getting weak, my faith weak...but God is an awesome God and he knows what is best for us...i can't see it now but God wants the best for us and i know He is working and trying to bring my H to HIM. my H seems to have drifted further from God everyday.

that scares me.

i don't know much about the laws on divorce..never thought i would need to, but i have to do something. I am thinking more on the lines of just moving back home (my family is the next county and my work, preschool is there also) instead of filing. one of my best f's thinks moving best leave out the papers...maybe being out of his sight would do the trick...let him see what life is going to be like, because if we do D...i will not be living in our home..we will have to sell. then the other best f...says to do the papers...

i did print legal seperation papers 1 week after he left (off computer) and gave them to him then...i shouldn't have i guess...but i did..trying to show him or get him to see..but he threw them back at me and told me not to throw them in his face again or he would sign them. i didn't tell him where they came from..he thought i got them from an attorney...maybe he knows now...but i told him they were sort of a rough draft. back then he was SOOOO angry he didn't really care...although...he never would mention or move forward about getting them. a couple of times in arguments in the beginning (like the 1st month or so) he would say get the papers out lets sign them and get this over with...but then..he would come back later and say...if you do this or that again I WILL sign them...he knew i didn't want that, and he did it to threaten me.

i didn't know what to do..so i just let it go...we neither have mentioned THOSE papers again. instead later i told him i wouldn't get them..he would have to ...i wasn't paying for what i never wanted. maybe this has hurt me in the long run and why this has kept on for so long...he knows i was bluffing...

i am right there at home, still. msa i don't want to divorce...i am a product. i love jay more than life i would rather die than put him thru that he**. my H knows that. he also knows that what he is doing is wrong and he is wrestling with it. his smoking gotten alot worse, he lost 6 more lbs. since last month. He really is struggling. but it is like he just does not love me the same.

he must feel he loves her. He must think that hiding from her H and killing me and Jay are more important than doing what is right. i dunno? he wants my company. wants my approval. wants my opinion on things. wants me to be in a good mood, talk, not be upset, but doesn't want the touchy feely of me as a wife. wants that from OW. she isn't leaving her H. and i think he just doesn't think about anything but himself and what he will do today...not much else. and the fact she hasn't left her H...probably is what is keeping him doing this. he isn't tied down to her, oh...i dunno?????

i am so sorry this is so long. i am the venting queen. see my sitch about moving or doing papers. i feel God moving me more than the legal aspect. then H would not know my when and wheres. i am afraid papers will just be as another bluff to him, if i am not there where he can see me...then it will be more realistic...staying and getting papers just means ...well we have papers. moving would mean...WE are gone. last weekend MIL said he paced the floor until we came home. was upset we didn't call. was at our home 5 mins after we got there.

i am scared of moving and my child doesn't even want to speak of it. UGHHH.
his b-day is next month...we have a big party in the works...and H right there in the middle of it. my H has very little family and i have HUGE family...and my family ALL come for it...JAY is the light of our lives...he is the star...and well very spoiled by all!!! anyway my point is ...he knows they will be there and doesn't seem too uncomfortable just as of yet.

one other thing...and i will shut up...when H left ...he took only what he needed. EVERYTHING he owns still at home. all his clothes, closet full , everything...his bathroom...still has everything...set just as it was. he has never ever planned on leaving...never. i think he kept the Dr. visit for the ending of the fling...he did before. I believe he planned on using his mental state to come home...that is what he was doing all along here recently...by trying to ease back in...even his own mom said it too. but he has had a set back...he got caught again and i am not buying his deal....

any suggestions on bringing him to his knees soon?

again sorry i wrote you a book today...as you can see...work not as important to me today HA! well...there are no patients to see.

Happy Friday to you!!!! hope i didn't leave you with a headache!!! jaysmom

Do not ever apologize for writing me a book. ALL I could talk about during my FWH's A was the A, 24/7 to anyone who would listen. It was so CONFUSING!

So, everything he owns is still in the home, eh?

I'll tell you what. I don't like him walking in whenever he pleases. You may not legally be able to change the locks, but you can certainly add deadbolts for your own protection. These can be locked when you are IN the home. Then you must answer the door, no surprises. That's what I did, and it worked well, and I was glad. After I filed for D, WH came over in a rage/panic/whatever to talk to our DD's - I was still in bed when they came and got me and said, "Dad's at the door, and we can't figure out the new deadbolt." THANK GOD!!! He was in such a state. Ill as you say. Just ill. He was going to tell the girls all kinds of things they didn't need to hear, because he had himself in such a fit over me filing... fortunately I could pull him aside and talk SOME sense in to him, that our kids didn't need to know about OW, OC, etc... whew.

So idea #1, deadbolts.

Idea #2, start making small changes. I never emptied out WH's closet and stuff, but I did remove his knickknacks from the bedroom (my organizing specialist said it was probably creating bad vibes to be sleeping around all his stuff when he was being so mean to me). I decided she was right, boxed it all up neatly and put it in the storeroom. I also debated getting a goldfish, a cat, and moving the coffeetable back upstairs which he did not want to do. Just making the house more MINE, moving on in little ways. I think you should begin to pack up some of his things, things Jay won't notice (garage? Basement? Your bedroom?) so you don't upset Jay. Things your WH WILL notice, so you upset him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Worry him, that is. Give him little reality checks.

Thoughts?

Happy weekend!
MSA

By the way, how many hours drive are you from Gallatin/Nashville, TN?

It's Monday again.

Hope your weekend was well. Nashville...hmm i think about 4 hours drive. We are very close to Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge area...about 1 1/2 hour drive, we shop there alot.

You and my best friends have the same exact thoughts. Everyone...change the locks. we already have deadbolts and i don't know if i could do it, but i am sure my dad would. He usually knocks before coming in (depends on the day/his mood etc....) i usually have the doors locked and i open them or Jay does one.

Maybe i am the problem. My friend said...stop opening the door and letting him come down whenever he feels like it. Put your foot down and tell him...but Jacob always wants to see him and i feel bad. so i just let him come on in and stay. It's my fault isn't it. If i would get some backbone and tell him...no not just tell him...but show him.

my friend said...you say things to him all the time...but you don't put anything behind them.. you can tell him you are thru and you are not putting up with it ...but she said...your still there. He knows you are bluffing. she is right.

i know he can sense the change in me though. he showed up Friday with a gift card to the mall for me..."go buy you some shoes..." (of course he knows shoes are the other love of my life)...

but i just went off the deep end. i threw it back at him...and blessed him out. (yes we in the south bless people out..ha!)

but hey...i know he is thinking about me anyway. my friend said see...he is slowly trying to buy you back..ease his way back home.

i dunno..msa...he is still seeing her i think, but really...did i want it to end because i ended it...or because my H realized that he didn't love her and didn't want to lose me. I want him to end it. i always have.

but i know i am going to have to stop this cake eating...that phrase has been uttered to me a 1000 times this weekend by everyone!!!!

i have been meaning to ask you this...what ever happened to the OW? did her H take her back? did your H give you any signs that he was ending it...or that you thought it might be coming to an end when he did end it?

my MIL told me this weekend that she saw signs in my H that she thought that it was coming to an end...i don't know why she thought that. she said that before i exposed she saw signs in him that it was getting too much for him and she said i think that he isn't able to keep it up much longer. she said that his smoking and the fact that he wants to see us daily and that he spends time with us everyday and it gets lengthier everyday was encouraging to her. i don't know????

i know you have said that your H and mine seem similar. with your H coming around and calling daily...did he just talk to you like you were still best friends? Did he seem to be struggling with himself while he was gone? like with my H's weight loss and smoking...etc...was there visible signs to everyone??? just curious!!

Jay's sick gotta go get him from school...

happy monday!!! jaysmom

Hi there Jaysmom, I confess that I have been reading your posts now for quite a while; this is the most inspiring thread that I have read on this forum! I SOOO mean this as a compliment, please take it this way, this is my FIRST post! I felt compelled to write something...

First off, I want to say that you ARE doing the right things simply by choosing MARRIAGE! Your discipline through all of this blows my mind. Never doubt that what you are trying to achieve is the noble route...

Consider your perfect world, would this world include your family all together? I'm guessing so, and I hope this statement doesn't depress you since it seems that you are gathering more and more doubt as this is wearing you down. All I am trying to say is that you are battling for what is absolutely RIGHT! NO ONE would disagree! I'll bet even your H would agree if he was able to be open and honest with himself...unfortunately, right now it seems that if he was honest with himself he would have to also admit to all the ways he has hurt those close to him, and face up to his behavior.

Nobody wants to admit that they've been hurtful, esp to this extent...add on the FOG...the lies...the addiction to OW...the depression...the guilt; it makes for so many layers to push through to even admit to oneself that they have been wrong. I'm sure it has been said, but the FEELINGS for OW can feel so RIGHT...it must be very hard for him to see how this could be WRONG...but i assure you that it is! I can't imagine how many ways he has had to justify this to himself in order to feel like he hasn't been doing anything wrong, he must self-talk himself constantly.

I don't mean to put the focus on myself right now, but I have a situation with some similarities, so I can relate to some of this, and following your sitch has been very inspiring, I hope you don't mind me saying. My wife is terribly depressed, and has developed an emotional affair with my best friend. She WON'T take meds. We had marriage problems, and I admit that I had contributed to the troubles. The problem is that she does NOT see this as a emotional affair (even though there has been sexual areas to it, and it has taken the intimacy away from us...). What I am noticing is that when someone is depressed, it seems to magnify and justify the addiction to the OP immensely. The OP is their "feel good" zone, and they have disassociated any "feeling good" while involved with their family at home. After all, this is where the trouble started..why go back to the "cause" of the trouble? (At least this is what they think) It seems to make for "fog on top of fog" and constructive conversation is SO HARD! Also they are so very likely NOT to admit that what they are doing is destructive, and in my case, it is hard for her to admit that she is doing it AT ALL! (they are "just friends" you see, even though they decided that maybe if they had sex, it just might put the fire back into our marriage! FOG x FOG, you see? At least my BF told me before it happened...)

So I'm saying that I can relate, there is NO logic to their reasoning, no wonder you feel confused and bewildered. I'm guessing that until your H disassociates from OW AND goes through the withdrawal stage, he isn't going to make much sense. But yet he keeps coming around, doing some nice things for you, and keeps you off balance. I'm amazed at how well you have handled all of this. Try to remember that his actions scream to me that he doesn't want to lose you and his son. What sucks is that he's also treating you unfairly at the same time. How do you do Plan A (being the "ideal" mate) without letting him cross your boundaries? I'm learning that it is a VERY fine line! It's a very hard thing to do...and it's impossible to do it perfectly...

I'm keeping my hopes up for you and praying specifically for clarity for your husband and happiness for your family!

Take care.

That's great, if I get down to Nashville this summer I'll let you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



What ever happend to the OW... well, H quit his job & went into No Contact with a letter. We don't know if her H took her back; last I heard no, but that can always change. Maybe it was the final straw her getting pregnant. Did he give me signs he was ending it? Yes, I was reading his thread on MB lurking and new when he went into NC, though H & I were barely speaking after I filed for divorce. He ended it shortly after I filed. But he had friends assisting him in the decision that were more clear-headed than he was.


Yes, he still wanted to talk to me. After I filed he was very angry at first. But mostly he wanted to confide in me, as long as I was doing what he wanted he was very friendly. When I would set a boundary, then he would become angry. He smoked constantly, but then again... so did I! It was a stressful time!


I hope Jay gets to feeling better, my DD6 is sick also...

Welcome CJ ShookUp!

MSA

well...well...it sounds as though i have an audience...hmmm..

and to think...today started off just terrible. i came into work and decided before i do any work i think i'll check up on what my good friend MSA had to say and low and behold...i have a new friend....

just when i was about to announce to everyone and MSA "put a fork in me i am thru!" CJ Shookup...shows up and puts a big ol' smile on my face....

really...INSPIRING??? moi???? you think?

should i contact Lifetime....entertainment...???

as you know...i am from the south...big hair capital of the world...Inspiring...my head cannot get any bigger!

oh me, oh my....at least i still have humor in me...at least he cannot kill that part of me.

well guys...today just started off just awful. Tuesday morning...as almost every other tuesday for the past 4++ months...my H leaves at 4:50 am to go off to see her. so i know it is still going on. I spoke to MIL this am and she said..."wonder what his excuse will be today"

every tuesday since he left he comes up with something...does he not give me any credit. why lie???

I just don't get it. He came in this am, after he got in from you know whattin', (jay was staying with him, and i didn't want to get him out since he has been sick), he didn't say much. He knew i saw him leave this am. He even turned his headlights off in hopes i wouldn't. like i am the idiot.

i don't understand. why did exposing backfire for me? it seems as though...since i exposed that they are going full steam ahead...my MIL said to me...it was almost as if it were coming to an end until i did that (she wasn't being ugly...i had actually stated it myself and she agreed, but wasn't saying anything bad on my part). its true.

why? why is OWH such a fool? why hasn't God put that gut wrenching feeling inside of him to show him...? why doesn't she EVER seem to slip up? and why just plain old why...if they neither want to lose their spouses do they continue...oh i know...addiction...but addictions can cause you to lose everything...and in this case...

ranting aren't i? MSA, when your H came back...how was he? i mean...he was so angry with you for filing...how did that bring him back...well i mean...i know how but ...HOW did he come back...when you guys weren't actually talking much.

we talk too much. he isn't angry at all.

last night he came down for "family night" as usual. he came in the bedroom and was sitting on the edge of the bed for a min. talking to me and looking over a book or something. I said....do you mind i need to change. "no..go ahead" ...no...John...do YOU mind...I need to change.. "no i don't mind at all...go ahead"

Hmmm...NO do you MIND...i want to change and i don't want to in front of you..."oh" and he gets up ...

kinda ill (is that phrase only used here...?)..kinda p*ssy...i should say. No cake today Mr.

he hung out his usual...played nintendo, talked ...whatever. i did bring up selling again and he gave me the same speech..."i dunno, i haven't thought about it"

Maybe i should just stop asking? but i am not at all a patient person. this is just killing me. this has made me Job's sister i think.

i am someone who wants the fix 10 mins ago. so at least i can say that when this is all said and done...God has made me the most patient person, i will have done everything i could do possible to save it and know God will say "well done"

I don't know guys what to do. i am starting to just wear down. in every area of my self. Mentally, emotionally, spiritally, being a mother. He is not at all responsible for our son. sure he comes down...when HE wants. he doesn't help me at all. becoming resenting.

This morning...before i left for work i said to him.

"john, if i were standing here (he is lying on our couch watching TV) with a bottle of alcohol in front of Jake...what would you do? No response..

i asked again..."move i can't see the TV"

i turn the TV off and asked again...and added that i was stone faced drunk..."what would you do?"

"tell you to quit" ....My point exactly dear. your convictions on alcohol...not as strong as mine apparently on divorce...i have asked you very nicely for 4 months to stop and you continue...

your son prayed in the check out line at Target for everyone behind us to hear "Jesus, please fix my daddy's heart and bring him home soon."

mean anything to you? No...mean anything to her? NO...NO..she has her kids...they shield them from the truth but she and you have had no problems putting my precious 3 year old thru He**. doesn't bother either of you at all...

and out the door i went.

does this EVER get to him? do i get anywhere with what i say? will it ever sink in? will he ever stop???

sometimes i think i should just keep doing what i am doing...just let him come down and not say much...that i am expecting too much out of him too soon. that i have said before...i want it to end...but by the right reasons. because...HE chose it to end. but the pain of it continuing in front of me day in and day out...is making me crazy. the fact he continues to deny and lie...make me think he thinks i am just a fool...am i?

CJ...didn't mean to hog it all on me...i hope we can learn more. it sounds like you and i and MSA have alot in common. try to get her on ADs. it has helped, especially were Jay is concerned...and since he has started the guilt is more evident...try...pray...PRAY!!!

it's nice to know you think i am Inspiring...perked me up today...thanks.

i am making him watch Jay this evening too. told him i had plans. i am back in size 6 and looking dang good if i do say so...so let him sweat my where abouts. He always 50 ?'s me about where, when, why... won't tell him...but i'll tell you...
going to the mall...to spend his money.

gotta go take my big ol'head back to work....Jaysmom

Jaysmom, you are so funny, your post mad me laugh tonight about spending his $ etc...

Poor Jay, that made me tear up. I thought I could read it to H w/o choking up - wrong!

By the time my H came home he was contrite. The first time he came home in a whirlwind, the first month or 6 weeks was like some kind of honeymoon, really wonderful. The second time he came home, I was much more cautious; he lived with his sister for about 2 1/2 months while we did counseling and spent time together when I was home... I didn't want to put the kids thru him coming home if he wasn't going to stay. He PROMISED them the 1st time that he would NEVER leave again... ugh.

We don't use the phrase "ill" - we say crazy. But I like it, now that I get it...

I don't know WHY exposure backfired on you. I don't know WHY OWH believes OW. Should you collect & send some sort of proof to him that it is on-going? I don't know. So, you saw her at the store? Are you tempted to say anything to her? Not that that helps, from what I've heard...

It's maybe premature to say that exposure backfired. It's only been a month or so. Give it time for things to start to add up for OWH. Things in their "recovery" won't be going well unless she's quite an actress. It's hard to hide the fog. Pray for OWH that he would see the truth and deal with it.

Something has to happen to get your WH off the fence, that is becoming increasingly clear to me. What are your options for living elsewhere to do Plan B?

All these things make me think he will never get off the fence.

I like that you don't tell him where you're going. Let him wonder.

What to do to get him off the fence... what to do... what does your best friend say?? Move?

Something has GOT to change. Pray about what God wants you to do to get him off the fence, specifically.

MSA

Okay, okay, now you that you know that you have a freaking snoopy sociopath reading you posts, you must take the compliment REALLY well..hahaha!

So sorry, didn't mean to intrude, just wanted to give you a boost, seemed like you could use it right about now! Just inspired by your resilience and your actions is all...I reread my post and I hope it didn't sound like a shameless plug of my situation...

I'm probably not experienced enough to give advice, heck if I had known what I was doing with marriage, I might not be writing this right now, heh. But I do see some similarities, and I identify with it, but the genders are swapped.

Maybe your H and my W would like to get together for a cake eating contest...wait a minute, I could see how THAT could go horribly wrong...haha (I'm relying on your humour here!)

No laughing matter, I know, been doing plan A since October. Thanx for the warm remarks.

Hello MSA! Glad to be here, I've learned tons from this site and people like you!

God bless you both, I'm rooting for what's right...Not meaning to project any negativity with my jokes, just hoping for a laugh!

Gotta go back to researching the internet to see if clandestine brain transplants are available for WS's... wish me luck! (No bitterness HERE!!)

Hope you don't mind if I check in here and there.

Respectfully..CJ.

Wednesday. Hey guys.

well...i've been thinking on how to get him off the fence ...and thinking i might just kick him off of it myself. Ughhh. i am little but i can hold my own.

am i in the anger stage? because i find myself daydreaming of ways to bring pain to him. okay no one freak out....i am only a woman scorned....although...i am from the backwoods of N.C. HA!

CJ...why apologize..you didn't intrude...obviously i need all the help i can get...i am going crazy...remember...you should hang with us...and bond. We all have the same issues. the more the merrier!

MSA...she is just the best. My best friend calls her PROFOUND! she can help us both. and i so appreciate her always checking in on me. thanks friend.

I need a vacation. Its dreary here. cold...although i am sure much colder with you MSA. it like flurried here and there is no school. seriously. there is nothing outside...but the threat scares people. i need sunshine.

i am starting to get very bitter. am i in the norm? the thoughts of a man that will really love me and care for me. He is out there right? someone to be faithful...as i have been. Ughh.

okay...my mother wants me to move on. she says i am crazy. (this is coming from a divorcee, who cheated herself, and lives with consuming guilt...25 years later)she is giving me the..you will never trust, love, anything him the same again. (of course then she has to add...your father did the same...ain't she the best! don't get me wrong...i love her...i have to...God commanded me to...but...please) i just want her to leave me alone, instead she is trying to hook me up with someone. God blessed me with one crazy family huh? love em'!

Last night...i came in and he came as usual. this time...getting more comfortable. Lying on the couch...watching TV. He just talks and talks about work and things. then when he gets ready to leave there is always a strain...like awkwardness...i dunno. he leaves and tells Jay..see you tomorrow son.

guys i just don't know. I asked Jay this morning..."what do you think Jesus wants us to do" he said...Jesus don't want us to do nothin'??? alot of thought with that huh?

i asked my best friend...see i have 2... best friend #1 says...move. best friend #2: file. #1: don't do anything legal. He obviously isn't wanting a divorce...if you do papers and stay...nothing will change, except you will be legally seperated and he will be visiting you everyday. find somewhere to move. if he can't see you everyday...i believe that will break him. He will then have to realize...hey, this is what life will be like when we divorce. i can't see Jay or wife everyday...wait..i don't have a wife...kinda thing...she pushes move.
#2: (this is H's friends wife, married in the same family, the one who goes and does everything with me, she is also VERY strong willed) GET PAPERS! get legal...show him your not bluffing and then once your legally seperated..start dating and let him watch you leave and give him a taste.

i don't want to do either. i think if i file he will get mad. If i move he will get mad/sad.

i'll just keep on praying. i will wait on God. He has been ever so present in all of this...showing and guiding me. i just have to stop picking it back up after laying it down to Him.

MSA...if you have any thoughts on knocking him off the fence...please...send it on down.

CJ...don't be a stranger...tell me more about your sitch...maybe i can help...(that sounds kinda crazy...me help..hey..but i am Inspiring wink...wink)

you know it just hit me...(sorry i am slow...) your best friend??? really? how weird is that. You know...when H and i first married...my H had a very good friend (not my friends H...) (OMG...how backwoodsy that sounds...really i am not...HA) anyway...H friend. when we first M, his really good friend flirted with me alot. ALOT. this was a nice looking guy too. He was a ladies man. I think he was always jealous of my H because he got married first...kinda thing. but i played into it some. i knew better and it went no where, and my poor H never had a clue. but it could've if i had wanted it to. He just wanted something he couldn't have. since...they don't speak and haven't in years.

do you still see your friend? whats going on with your w? are you still living together?

and just for the record MSA...enjoying my new shoes! Hmmm.....what can i get next???

oh and CJ- my H only goes for the old and scanky ones...i doubt your wife fits his mold. HA!

gotta work! jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom & CJ too!

I wish I did have thought how to knock him off the fence; I know it will come to you at the right time. Your SON is the one I think is profound!

So, what are the shoes like? I've been doing a bit too much shopping lately, the holidays turned the shopping-bug on, and now I have to turn it off!!

Watching silly "Skating with Celebrities" I realized who the OW in our sitch has reminded me of. All this time I knew there was someone well known that she just seemed JUST like. Tonight, the lightbulb went off. Tonya Harding.

Hope that's your laugh for the day, I swear it's the solid gold truth.

MSA

That is too funny. You know my friend and i were talking the day i went to view OW...and she had seen her several times before and never could find the right ways to describe her. all she could say was "the first time i saw her there must've been smoke coming out of my head.... all i could focus on were those black circles under her eyes and the fact she looked as old as his mother"

my first reaction...OMG...this cannot be her...she has to be at least 50ish. Nope...its her. My friend called her "haggard looking" "ask john if he has been using her eyes as coasters for his drinks..." she said. (she also said she was gonna ask him if he met her at bingo night or something...)

so anyway...we both stood in confusion at the sight of her and in trying to describe we just couldn't find the right way...she isn't UN attractive...just not what you would say "oh...she is attractive" no...

wouldn't say pretty...not even cute. Not ugly. Just blah. possibly a 5 on a 1-10. I feel mean saying it but it's true. then it hit us. who she kinda looks like. Have you ever seen A League of their own. (Madonna, Tom Hanks..etc.) she looks like a cross between the woman who played Marla...and Laverne from Laverne and Shirley. Yep.

No wonder he comes to visit me everyday. He misses my BEAUTY!!! hahaha!!!

we had our usual family time last night. He has gotten sick, Jay must have passed it down. He was kinda pouty. I was very nice to him. we actually had good conversation last night. I talked to him about speaking to the guy he works with (a while back you know) and he talked alot about that. wasn't angry. just acted fine about it. I told him...i told (the guy) who OW was ...i didn't know if he told you...and YES...MSA i got the "what girl" again.

this time though...he wasn't being the usual...he was being more funny about it. Poor thing. He just wants it to go away doesn't he? kinda getting that feeling from him. He just wishes it would go away but he doesn't know how. doesn't know how to stop it, fix it...or anything.

i keep on praying. God is working. Just not at the warp speed i would like...and you know He just may not get through to my H, but i pray he will.

I am getting rather lonely though, i have been tough. Fought like heck, but i am getting lonely for affection. I need to feel loved and i am getting really weak. don't know how much longer i can keep it up with nothing...NOTHING in return.

one other thing quickly about my profound son. Last night he was drawing in the floor. He made a picture of me, his daddy, grandmom, great-gm, and himself. H standing there said ...that is really good son. Jay said..."i drawed (yes drawed) that dripping down my face" i said what honey (i knew in my heart what was coming) he said..."me cryin'" john is walking away at this point..(he knew too) i said why are you crying.. "i am sad...i am crying for my daddy"

i lie to you not. God is definitely working. Using my baby as a tool. God help my H if it doesn't get to him. He left on that note.

On a lighter one. I saw a few mins of the skating show..but Lost was on...you just cannot miss Lost. Even Jay said...Mom...your show is on.

did she look like Tonya Harding? or just act like her...eww..either way...

Jaysmom

He may not come when you want him, but He's always right on time... (from a spiritual) - I love that. Have a version of Mahalia Jackson singing it...


It is hard; just keep holding out...


I kid you not that a huge motivation for me in the beginning was a drawing from my 5 year old of me & H, her & sis. All holding hands before the A started. How a family's supposed to be and feel to a kid. It broke my heart seeing that ripped out from under my kids, and I wouldn't say I'm over it still. Killed me. Even though we're in recovery and I'm so grateful, I'm so sorry they even know that their family not sticking together is a possibility. I will pray that Jay is comforted, and that things SPEED UP progress-wise for HIS sake. I prayed for that, had friends pray for that, that the whole thing would be over fast for my DD's sakes. It felt like an eternity, but it could have gone on a lot longer, I know.


We LOVE Lost, TiVo one, watch the other...


Oh yes, definitely from what I remember of Tonya Harding - trashy, skinny, blonde, with the personality of a, oh, I don't know, what would you say - rat? Morals of a snake? JUST like her in my memory. And the kind of person who would break the competition's kneecaps, nay, have them broken to win at any cost - however unfairly. Ick. Eww.

Have a great Friday, happy weekend!!
MSA

finally the weekend.

I lost it last night. totally lost it. It's really crazy, i picked my sweater and that was all it took.

My dad and step-mother took jay and i out for dinner. My dad is quite the over-protect...and Jay is just his life. We have been rather busy lately and he hasn't seen us in a week or so. My dad was just really worried about Jay. He can tell a HUGE difference in his actions. so as you can imagine...the dinner conversations were all about our sitch.

when i got home...yeah..yeah...here he comes. anyway, i picked my sweater that just sent me over the edge. I started thinking about how he just spends on what-ever without so much as blinking an eye to our debt, his son, our needs.

i was ranting a bit, he was sick and cranky, and that was it. i was screaming...yep...screaming. and crying. i threw the game controller across the room...he wouldn't even look up at me. I kept on. I screamed..."you do the right thing one way or another... end this with her NOW... and get your butt back home..." then i said...more calmly... if you are going to continue cheating on me and Jay...then do the right thing by letting us go...so we can find a man who will be faithful and love both of us like we deserve...."

I was so upset and angry and hurt and oh...just every emotion. he says..."what is wrong with you?"
I said..."OMG....you cannot be for real! you can't honestly think that i can just continue sitting down here watching you come and go from being with OW"

things just got pretty nasty. He had the nerve to say to me...stop yelling and acting like this in front of Jay, i NEVER do that in front of him...i said...No you just leave and abandon us and cheat on us....that is much better than me yelling.

Ughhhhhh!!!!!!!!! He left...of course...mad, but then again...so was i.

I still am. thats why i am at my dad's. i just cannot stand the thoughts of him coming down to pretend everything is fine. Like i have no feelings. like i can just handle him doing what he is doing...one more day. I don't even want to look at him again.

I am just bummed out. MSA...my heart just died. I don't know what happened to me. I guess i finally let go of the rope. whats the point in trying anymore?

i gave this man everything. no, i wasn't perfect. I never claimed to be. I faulted in this M. I admitted them. He just resents me for some reason...and i keep going back to the obsession with SF right before he lost the wieght and left. He began to resent me then...i can pinpoint that. but NOTHING gave him right to this. I was depressed and on medication at the time he became obsessive....i didn't feel like it...and he never made me feel like it...it was only about HIM...what i could do for him..."help HIM out" He could've cared less if I wanted to.

I am officially crazy now. Not going...but gone.

what to do...what to do? i don't know...i simply do not know. I am a firm believer in M. I know that i love him, but i don't want to see him or be around him. i don't want to D, but i am a very good, christian, woman with the most incredible 3 year old son anyone would be proud of ....and i deserve to be loved and not hurt over and over again. but again i do not want to divorce. so what do i do?

well...well...Jake is begging for me to get off of here so i will.

On a fun note...before i left to go to dinner last night... i asked my H how my butt looked in my jeans? He looked at me a little funny and said "what?" i asked again...and said...well i am trying to find me a good man...just wanted a male point of view on my backside.

his response...a very, very hateful..."fine"

Happy Weekend...Jaysmom

Jaysmom,
I know the stress of all this is unbearable most of the time; you need to find time to go out with your friends or call friends & family on the phone after Jay's in bed... I would not go with relatives and talk about your sitch over dinner with him sitting there... he's old enough to understand, and obviously bright enough.

We were fortunate that our angry outbursts and depressive collapses were saved for when our children weren't present. God spared them a lot with timing...

You can't look at what your H has done and use that as a barometer of what Jay can handle... what your WH is doing is dead wrong. Angry outbursts are terrifying to a child, from either parent.

His world is really rocked right now. Tell him you love him, his Dad loves him, and you are sorry that you got so angry but you are just really frustrated, but it still wasn't right. You can't control your WH's actions, only your own. You have to be the one to protect him now, your WH is in no position to be thinking clearly. I know you are strong enough to do that. He needs you to be the calm in the storm as much as you can muster. And with God's help that is quite a lot.

I think if the relationship has become so volatile that you can't control your emotions around Jay then you shouldn't be around your WH at this point & time.

I prayed today that this would end soon for Jay's sake as well as yours.

MSA

I know you are right MSA. I really wish i could not be around H right now. I honestly do, but i can't. I just have NO where to go.

i could move in with my dad, but Jay cries and cries if i mention it...i only mention it as a "fun" getaway for a weekend or something...trying to ease him in...

It's like he knows though. He is getting worse about it too. Never wanting to go ANYWHERE. only be at home.

I told my MIL just today that H coming by everyday i am afraid will be worse on Jay, because if he decides to not come...where exactly will that put Jay emotionally?

anyway...we have been around each other since and i have decided to just take a step back...and when i see i cannot handle being around him...i will simply go to the bedroom and tell him honestly how i feel...that i just feel it best for Jay that i keep to myself while they have time together.

He was very worried about us Friday night. He kept asking MIL if she had heard from us, even woke her at 4 am yesterday morning to see if i had ever called. Only 1 day MSA...1 day of not knowing our where abouts.

my friend said yesterday...see...if you were gone, he would be on his knees. she said...i would only give him 2 weeks, if that long.

MIL thinks that if i try to continue the plan A a bit longer, that will do wonders. she said to me she really thought that he was working his way back home, why else spend so much time with us. she would never say such if she didn't mean it. MIL is not a very vocal lady. she never pushes herself into anyone's business, especially ours...this has been a bit different since H is living with her, but she thinks...that with his mental problems and everything else involved...being at home and making it good while he is there...would be best.

i think i strayed from Plan A for a while (since exposing) and maybe... i should?

its just hard at times...especially PMS.HA! those days...i will just keep to myself.

Jay seems okay...he wasn't in the room when we were arguing at the worst. he came in there, but we stopped and calmed down. when he made his comment about yelling in front of Jay... jay wasn't even in there. it was just a way to get back at me. Jay knew i was upset...that part i hate, because i am with him all the time...i feel like i can't ever cry or anything...without it hurting him.

the past 2 days we have done the usual. I did go out for a while last night to myself and H was with Jay at the house when i came in. Today he came by for a while and said he would be back this evening. I asked him if he would consider going with me to talk to someone...he said...he would consider it. it's a start.

I told him today when he left that i loved him...and that i always want this (our M)...not just for Jay but for the both of us. He didn't comment..as usual, but he was very kind about it...different than usual.

do you think if i just don't bring up OW, the A, everything to do with it in general and just let him come and hang with us...making being home..."feel good" that it will be okay? i haven't really been following the plan A...i bring up something everytime i see him about OW..and what HE is doing...has that been wrong? at times i think i should just chill about it. everything i read says...the A will end eventually and the BS must be patient....am i just being to impatient?

thank you for your prayers!!! Jaysmom

Hi JM, MSA,

Thought I'd give you a bump just to let you know I'm praying and hoping for you guys... ahem, gals...

I'll eventually get into my situation, then y'all will see why I identify with these things, (umm, well not so much with the PMS...) but I think it is important that this thread be about YOU, JM. I am here to help YOU when I post here... perhaps I'll start my own thread soon, I'll let you know, I hope you guys check it out...

I know what you mean by feeling used up... I'm so tired of being treated like dirt, but we have no real choice as long as we try to keep the marriage alive. Yeah, I know plan A is not about being a doormat, but we can't force WS's to treat us with respect either, they just seem like they have NOTHING to give, and the blame is such a part of the fog, they have such an insensitivity to our feelings... at a time when we are certainly oversensitive. What a crappy irony.

I don't think your being too impatient, this stuff is HARD! Just don't give up! That is, be MORE patient! haha, I love double-talk. He seems like he is at least somewhat aware of the pain he has caused, he just can't admit it to you. I know it's hard, oh I know, but try to keep making it safe for him to be comfortable, maybe someday soon he'll be able to let go of his fear of judgement, and he'll be able to admit things to you? (Yeah, another passive strategy...) What you have going for you is that he is very attached to you and Jay, let him stay attached, I so hope he'll go to counseling with you...I hope he isn't teasing you with this possibility...

Oh b4 I write another word, I just want to say that I am praying for Jay too, the story about the picture and the tears just BROKE me. Why can't kids keep their innocence? This is SO unfair, draw strength from his love...kids have so much of it, when your feeling weak, give him a big hug, it'll fill up your "love tank", and help you remember why you are doing this. I have two little girls, and without them I'd have fallen off the rails a lot more than I have. Sometimes I think that kids have it more together than us "mature, responsible" adults. I come from a broken home, I know what this does to kids, I swore up and down it wouldn't happen to me. You swore it would not happen to you...no wonder you won't give up. Right ON! Make it happen!

I'm from Canada, I think you were complaining about cold a couple of posts ago, don't complain to me!!! haha. It is typically -30deg C (-22deg F) during January here. Strange though, today it is 36deg F. I guess we have no ozone layer left up here! Global warming...

Yeah, you heard right, my best friend. WEIRD?! "Weird" just doesn't describe it. I feel like I'm visiting my own nightmare, it's just surreal. I'm losing two people here...

Cake. Cake-eating. I used to really like cake. Think I'm a pie man now. I also have a sudden dislike for fences. I REALLY won't be caught dead sitting on a fence eating cake. EVER. I'm from the farm originally, and I'm an Electronics Technologist, I'd love to (and know how to) electrify the fences our WS's are sitting on... not sure how to do this pychologically though...

But I have been thinking of this, what to do? MSA, seems your leaning towards Plan B...I don't know...it might be just the thing. I mean, I don't know! Yeah, it would be hard taking Jay out of where he grew up, can't imagine making my girls pack up and leave... is there anything else that could be done to set boundaries with out leaving, and still have some semblance to Plan A? Seems like you WH shows some awareness patterns here, might also be nice if you're around sometimes so that you can build on these JM. Just a thought, like I said, an expert I'm not!

STEP 1: What if you took ~2 weeks and totally eliminated LB's and outbursts, give yourself a time goal like this. I don't know if 2 wks is good or not, any longer and I'd go crazy, not that I mean I'd LB the second 2 wks is up. It's just that we all slip up here and there. But I'm saying take 2wks with ZERO love busters. Don't mention OW, NO angry outbursts, rather talk about his days, etc.

If you talk about the relationship, use open-ended, probing questions, try to get him to relate his feelings, NO judgement, NO anger. If he feels comfortable enough to say a couple things, DON'T counterpoint it! There, you've just "won" anyway, you got him to talk about the relationship! It might just be one sentence per day. It won't work every day. Every day is too much to talk about the relationship anyway, WS's don't have much stamina for this. Start with questions that are easy to answer on the less threatening topics. Keep it simple, most people only retain the major points from a conversation. You want him to remember what you've talked about. Then politely question again, open-ended (that is, questions that CAN'T be answered with "yes" or "no" only) Ask for clarification when he says something ("How do you mean that?") Concentrate on HIM! DO NOT talk about yourself or Jay. Most people enjoy being the center of attention, keep the spotlight on HIM. Practice these techniques when talking about his days and other non-volatile topics...practice with other people. If this works, you'll learn a couple things every few days about how he's feeling, then brainstorm new things to politely ask later to expand on these topics. It might take a week to actually get through a whole conversation, but better than nothing... ask, probe, explore, safety, clarify, iterate!

I've been trying this with my wife. It's hilarious. She has told me in NO uncertain terms that she WON'T work on us right now. And she HATES (always has) talking about her feelings (unless its anger, she's mastered that one) And yet I can get her to say about 5-10 things per convo when doing this. She's working on us and working through her feelings, AND SHE HAS NO IDEA SHE'S DOING IT. So far I've gotten her to promise not to talk to OM (although she tried calling recently anyway) and she has agreed to try to talk only to me about our marriage. True? Probably not, but for her to say it is nothing short of amazing. It gives you a sense of accomplishment every time it works, and eggs you on to do more!

It'll be easier to practice this with him around...but we still need to set some boundaries. If this starts working, let it flourish, keep offering safety!

STEP 2: THEN...after the 2wks, if this is not working well, reevaluate. Do this for another wk? 2 wks? Set goals! When you achieve them you'll feel better! Your WORKING it!

At the end of this period, maybe you will be in a position to start a negotiation. At this point, you could possibly ask for a visitation schedule. Ask him to only come 3 nights a week and call first. Ask, DON'T tell. Let him think he is involved. Get it on paper. If his visits are causing Jay undue stress, let him know, and say that you would like a heads up before he comes so you can ready Jay and yourself. Do this if it is true ONLY, I'm NOT suggesting that you use a child as leverage, only suggesting that you should protect what you love: your child, your marriage, yourself and your husband. You don't want Jay upset with WH either! Tell him this! Have everyone's best interests in mind when you explain! Win-Win! Careful, he's likely to be offended here, if the open-ended convo is going well, this love buster might grind it to a halt for a while.

If the open-ended convo is going well, see where it goes first! Maybe this is all you need to do for now, STEP 2 is for setting boundaries, but you might not want them right now if you are learning about your relationship with your H. Gather all the info you can, be strong, be ideal, be his best friend. It sucks (trust me) but it also makes you feel like something is getting done. Do this for YOU, not necessarily for him, but learn to like it!

If this works you'll be in a much better position to set boundaries, if necessary, and STILL do Plan A without moving right now. It is a means to an end, which is to work on your relationship, and (maybe) get those boundaries in place to protect your son, yourself, and your sanity! Then, maybe, you can do plan B in a plan A kind of way.

Just a thought, didn't read this anywhere (but I DID read the open-ended convo thing...) What do you think MSA? Variations? Thoughts? How could this strategy be improved? I'm doing this right now, I'd sure like to know what you folks think!

Eeeks, sorry so long...

Cya!!

Without counsel from the Harleys directly, MBers usually caution against any changes/watering down of strict Plan A & Plan B. Is there any way JM that you could afford a session or 2 or 3 with the Harleys ($185 per)? That would be great.

I think Plan A and Plan B would be hard to combine - Plan A being love, EN-meeting, togetherness and Plan B being strictly going dark. I don't think there is any way to do plan B in a plan A kind of way (unfortunately!)

I very much like CJ's ideas on conversation - good pointers.

How are you doing Jaysmom?

MSA

Hey guys!

Mrs. Stow...i am hanging in there. Actually i am doing fairly well. Work has been extremely hectic and i have not had the chance to get on here much. Keeping Jay busy after work too.

H has been around ALOT this past weekend and first of week. ???? kinda scares me!!! HA! He hasn't been out much but i know they still talk/see each other some. It isn't alot of time "together" ...which is the weird part for me. I don't think they have ever spent much time face to face...mostly just on the phone. they spend hours talking on the phone...they don't have alot of one on one. Jay confirmed that he is still talking to her on the phone.

but in seeing each other it is only a few mins after she leaves work and maybe her day off...but you guys know her H will be keeping tabs on that time. Plus her other day off her H is as well.

so basically what gives? is it more an EA now than PA? really i wonder if it wasn't more EA all along anyway. My friend said today...what is it exactly? what is keeping him holding on to her? what is it? who knows!!

one thing i do know is that he is still holding on to me too. and the visits getting longer and longer. He worries alot about my attitude. "why are you so grumpy" "what's wrong" "do you feel bad today?" i get those alot. I know i must sound like i am a sour puss all the time...i am not...he just ?'s me alot. He really worries about that. it's usually when he first gets there so he hasn't had time to "feel me out"

We have been getting along good. i haven't said a word about OW since last Thursday, and we actually had a good conversation Monday night. He didn't say much in response but i said alot and he reacted very kindly. He constantly refers to everything "well i am mental" or "my messed up mind, made me do...whatever the issue"

gotta run...patients running out the building.

Hope you guys think i am doing well...and if you think of anything helpful...continue to send my way....

CJ thanks for the pep/info...

and thanks to you both for the prayers!

JM

Hi JM,

Glad to hear you're workin it, sounds like your a little more chipper, glad to hear you're getting some convo in. Seems to me that he may be having a few unfoggy moments, I imagine he'll need to keep that to himself for now...if it is more EA than PA, it makes for a tough admittal, lots of emotional investment, and subtle enough to justify that the A is ok, he may be tapering off, like a smoker who thinks that he can just smoke less until smoking no more...yeah right. (HA, I'm smoking again myself these days!) They may ONLY be talking these days, and who knows what type of things that the OWH is doing. He does sound like a pushover, but he might only want to keep his strategy a secret..perhaps your exposure is paying off!

Haven't got a thread going yet, no time lately, mine is a long story, (aren't they all?) I will soon, I'm interested in what the men here have to say too, starting to feel uncomfortable only posting here, don't want you gals to get the wrong idea, after all this is Marriage Builders! Only here for support, just want you to know... allow me to be honestly paranoid about what you gals think of me!

I talk a good game, but screwed up last night, asked W where her cell phone was, saw in her call history she tried calling OM Thurs night. (doesn't know I looked) Last night cell was in kitchen, until she went to bed, then, as usual it disappeared. Shouldn't have said nothing but partly practical, she racked up ~$500 in cell charges since mid November, b/c she thinks I might have the land-lines bugged. Good grief. Wanted not to pay for this again! She was instantly mad, BUT then I asked her if she called OM and we started fighting. Kids were asleep. She said if we don't have trust we have nothing! I said if you have nothing to hide I'd, just like to know so I can relax, then I can keep building up my trust! Still don't know where the cell was, probably in her room, like I thought... Still, I don't feel totally guilty, tired of enabling her behavior...

Weird though, she called me at lunchtime for no reason that I can tell, and asked how I was doing, she knew I didn't sleep last night, called again at break time (about a diff bill) and was real nice, reminded me to take my lunch she packed for me the night b4, and served up my plate at suppertime, huh?

Gotta reset my 14 day counter, I made it 10 days with NO LB's. Grrr. I'll do it this time...but maybe part of what I did was OK?

Keep truckin' sounds like you know what you're doin!

cya JM & J

tomorrow is Friday right? oh my gosh it just has to be! this has been the craziest week and i am pooped out!

okay now CJ you have just gone and hurt my dang feelings. I just knew if things between me and the ol' wayward didn't work out you would be there for me! (i am only joking...don't panic!) I have been praying for you and your wife and i hope things will get better for you in the days ahead...it's so tough!!! and it's really good to hear from you...you and i have similar situations going on. its nice to hear i am not alone and your advice and input have really picked me up on really hard days!!!

you should really tell us more...there are alot of people going thru this and can help! Look at MSA...she has been there and she has been so supportive and she will never know how much i appreciate her advice, kind words and prayer! thanks friend!!

last night when jay and i got home...H was already there...waiting on us. kinda funny...i got the "where've you been..thought you would've been home by now" he stayed for a while and claimed he was home all day ????? (he was off). i still have not mentioned OW at all. We just talk about mostly his work...things he does with his truck...jay...

it's strange though. if the convo ever turns to me...he never compliments me or anything. Its like it is too uncomfortable or something. resentful kinda. i don't know. i really wish he would show a little affection towards me i am starting to just feel so lonely. maybe with time???

MIL says he still isn't sleeping much or eating much. he has lost so much weight and he forgot to go get his Rx filled so he has missed 3 days and getting grouchy. I told him he better go today!! he promised he would.

MSA hope all is well with you!! Sorry to you both about complaining of cold...been pretty nice last couple of days...60ish. Guess CJ that would feel like 90 to you huh? 60 is okay...but i would rather be on a nice sandy beach!!!

CJ...hang in there! and don't feel so uncomfortable coming here....we wouldn't be here if we didn't all have the same spouse!

Jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,

I'm curious... if your WH won't admit there is an affair, then what exactly is the reason he gives for not living at home with his family and not trying actively to reconcile?

MSA

MSA-your reading my mind these days!

On Monday night when we had the conversation that was okay. (it went nowhere, but i say okay because he didn't get angry at all...and did answer a ? or 2 but used the same answer..."i guess because of my messed up mind"...as usual)

anyway in the convo...i said to him at one point and i am not sure how it lead up to it...but said..."you know before you left and things started getting bad (which was 1 week prior to him leaving) you promised me it had NOTHING to do with me at all, kept reassuring me of that....then the day you left...because i found out about HER...you say there is nothing to work out....since then you have said...you don't love me...you will always love me... its the money issues...it has nothing to do with me at all...i am not to blame...your messed up...blah blah...

i said...Good Lord...i am so confused as to what, when, and why of anything.

As far as his reason...he gives none. He doesn't exactly not admit to the affair...because he knows i know the truth...knows i heard OW confess to her H. He just doesn't say ANYTHING. If i say..."what is going on?" "what are we doing" "you come down here everyday...why?" to see Jay is my answer...or no response at all...which is mostly the answer.

He never answers any ?. and that is why i think i lost it last week. I AM SITTING AT HOME NOT KNOWING ANYTHING...TOTALLY IN THE DARK... he has been there before i got home a couple times this week...(i am very afraid of the dark...i know i am a weenie...childhood thing..long story) H always known this...since he left...if he see's or knows i won't be home till after dark...ALWAYS comes to turn lights on for me. He commented the other day..."well it was dark...so i came on down to wait for you all"

Everyone here that knows my sitch...friends, family, co-workers...all say...he is just working his way back home. Even MIL says so. He is trying to ease his way home...ease into comfort...ease out of A...at this point I realize that H and OW know it isn't going to work out...they are "tapering off" as CJ put it...i totally agree. He spends more and more time at home...less and less out. Even making sure he explains his where abouts. BUT he avoids anything and everything.

If i get on a subject of us...nothing. No response to anything. and when i mean US i don't mean i ask "are we working out our M or not.." kinda thing.

I mean...something like...simple....i bought Jay a new gamecube game...H loves it. LOVES it. so i said after he raved about it forever..."so i did pretty good in picking out a game..is that what your saying" no response.. i said...it just kills you to think you might have to pay me a compliment.

Bought new undies the other day and teasingly said...went by Victoria Secret to pick up something...(and normally that would be enough said to put a smile on him) and he totally ignored me. will not say anything about my weight. how i look. Still doesn't tell me he loves me. Nothing.

so what is it guys? MSA any advice. it is driving me nuts that i am just living sort of a nightmare. H see's us daily. spends more and more time with us....but i still don't know anything. He has us just hanging by a string. dangling us. I think he wants to come home...sometime. i think he is just easing his way in...i agree with my friends. that is what he did before. 5+ years ago. He just decided after he started spending more and more time with me...he would come home. I didn't know about OW then at the time he came home. He had just been put on ADs and then a month or so later came home, saying he was a "fruitloop" he was "messed up" all the same reasoning as now but, all was not well...and i knew there was something...that is how i later found out about OW then. this time..he is following his same pattern. easing in. getting comfortable around me. but this time i know about OW. does he really think he can come home and not ever have to talk about it? Ughh!!!

help guys...what is wrong with him? I am now officially crazy!!!

send help please!!!

hey its Friday...Have a good weekend!!
JM

Jaysmom,
Wow, he's quite the manipulator... that's a great line "fruitloop" - sure gets him out of A LOT of trouble doesn't it? Blame it on insanity. Then he doesn't have to be accountable for any of his actions. Life happens TO him, he doesn't make choices... I get it. His victim story.

He knows the future choices are all up to him; he can come home, not come home... you will be there for him either way. He's got it very good; he's built a pillow-top cushion right on top of that fence he's sitting on, and it even has a back on it - and armrests!! And other people bring him cake!

I don't think he sounds too "messed up" at all! I think he's made himself a very comfortable spot!

What do you think? How do you like his spot up there?

MSA

i know MSA...what should i do? I was going to ask you but forgot in last post...SHOULD i start asking him? What to do? i know...he is playing me isn't he? but it seems as though things seem better between us when i don't say anything.

I feel so stuck. I don't want to move. don't think legal papers would amount to a hill of beans. I don't know.

He is just really making me crazy. i haven't felt led by God lately to do anything. I don't know how to approach it anymore but i am the ultimate DOORMAT right now.

to keep peace i say nothing. I, of course, haven't been saying anything and it seems better between us...but it's like he is winning...keeping me in the dark. Not committing to anything with me and Jay. Just dangling as i said before. which is totally mean in my opinion.

what do i do? any suggestions?

should i start telling him he is going to have to commit to one of us..???

but here's the deal...anytime i say anything....HE NEVER ANSWERS...NO RESPONSE AT ALL!!!! and then he just keeps coming down like normal.

help JM

You get along better when you say nothing and don't confront because then he doesn't have to answer any questions or deal with what he's doing... very comfortable for him. So he's nice to you when you don't make things uncomfortable for him.

Perhaps post on GQII again. I know you did before you exposed. But now you did as the experts on GQ said, you exposed. It doesn't seem to be having the desired effect. Now what?

Normally I would think Plan B letter and strong Plan B.

Have you considered counseling with Steve Harley alone for advice? $185/session...

MSA

MSA,

You know i am really running low on everything. My best friend hasn't talked to me for some reason for almost a week now. she usually calls me at least twice a day. I think she might be upset with me because i am not really doing anything. Like maybe she feels she has said and done all she could and can't get thru to me.

i don't know. i am starting to feel like i just fail at everything i do. my M, being a mom, friends. Just all together feel like i am doing something wrong. I have prayed and prayed and don't feel God at all.

In the past 4 months God has been with me every step. leading, guiding and showing me everything. i know He is with me, but is very silent right now. Just really discouraged you know.

my step mom said if i move, no matter what the circumstance it will be the hardest thing i have ever done. Yep. i just don't want to leave.

exposing backfired. leaving probably would too. what is up with this stupid A? they hardly see each other and she won't leave her H. he won't totally leave me...and they think its okay apparently.

Last night...i did tell him he HAD to commit to our M or commit to ending it. I asked him if when he looked at me did he know he loved me...he just said What??? i asked again and got an "i don't know"

i said...should've been an easy answer for you dear. You see you tell me you always will...so therefore you should know when you look at me you do. he didn't comment, shock huh?

but i feel like i am talking to a wall most of the time. Yeah he gets ill...but then he tries to change the subject or avoid it totally.

so now. i have to make a choice. either i live with things the way they are and be the doormat, or i make a change. I deserve better i know, its just that this was the man i made my life with. My love. My H. My sons father. Just isn't so easy to walk away...but

what else can i do. i am getting nothing from him. no affection. no love. just a visit everyday and a little conversation that is always about his sorry butt.

i wish he would just leave. if he had somewhere else to live then i wouldn't have to just kill my son. Jay cries about moving all the time. i HATE being the blame for EVERYTHING when honestly i don't see how i could be any of the blame.

i thought about posting on GQ but...what good would it do. they would say...do plan B...but i don't see how i can.

he pays no attention to me putting my foot down. he continues to come down even though i asked him not to. If i get firm about it...he gets angry and doesn't mind if he hurts me.

Plan B next door...Is it even possible? and the letter...i could try it, but he has the SAA book. i just don't know. guess i could try it.

oh well.

i am bummed out today. I feel like i have failed at everything. maybe i have.

JM

Jaymom, you haven't failed. You have put forward a really valiant effort to save your marriage. Exposing to OWH took more courage than I mustered up during our separations.

I really commend you for that. I have no idea why it didn't work -- yet.

I do think that your WH's lack of answers though is just too much.

Okay, he can't apologize, he can't admit, he can't stop himself... where does that leave you?

I think you will feel so relieved if you start to take some power back, to make some decisions for yourself. You can file for legal separation and still live next door, no? This is just crazy that he gets to live this way on & on & on... all the while torturing you & Jay, wearing down your self-esteem, making you doubt yourself, making you feel like a failure when you've done nothing but stand by him.

I would really like to smack some sense into your WH.

I doubt him having a copy of SAA will affect your Plan B, he probably hasn't ever opened it.

I wonder what playbook he's reading from??? I just don't get him.

You stay the course, I will keep praying for you. I think you should initiate contact with your best friend and ask her how she's doing and what's going on... maybe it's time for girl's day at the movies and a facial - no relationship talk!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Or go to a concert, or to hear an interesting speaker. Something that doesn't require conversation but gives you something else to think about. ?

I know it's so hard, you hang in there. God has not forsaken you, He cares, He is in control. It is SO hard to understand His timing sometimes, and why... there were a lot of times that God told me nothing but "WAIT." even when I didn't want to hear it. Just listen for that voice, that inner feeling that is God, ask Him what to do. He loves you, and Jay, and even your crazy husband. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSA

MSA,

whew i needed to hear that today! I took some power back last night. You would've been proud. I don't know what happened to me, someone must've been praying 'cause I felt so lifted up after i sent my post yesterday!!

He left angry at me, why? because i didn't give him his usual comfy night with the fam. then we talked on the phone after he left, while Jake was playing. I very calmly spoke to him and very firmly told him several things i needed to say...he needed to hear. Not so much the same blah...blah...but very, very FIRM...but loving.

at one point i spoke to him about my friend and he said "well who do i have?" "i don't have anyone"...very calmly i responded..."you've always had me" "you didn't need anyone else...i've always stood behind you, even in this trial, even in the worst of things...you've always had me"

he didn't comment. At one point i asked him what you asked me the other day...why isn't he trying to work on our M? Your really gonna want to slap him...."well...my medicine hasn't kicked in good yet" always the excuse.

I know God is still working. He is working on my H. Right now...i feel as you did, God saying wait. Just wait.

Yes i can still file legal seperation and live next door. Probably going to have to. He will flip out, but gotta do something.

i really needed to hear your words of encouragement today. thanks! My mom is the choir director at our church and she sang a special today and dedicated it to me...the song was my life. It meant alot...

of course i am like...gee thanks mom...as my makeup rolls down my face...and i didn't use the waterproof mascara today...yes...i looked lovely!! especially to the newly divorced hot dad sitting the pew across from me...(hey i have to consider my options...) i am joking of course!!

i'll give my friend a call. she scares me sometimes (haha) she is the very strong willed friend...who almost never thinks before she speaks. i would love a concert...but in Asheville...not much going on! We don't even get the circus anymore. sad isn't it! maybe a movie? we love to just chat about the old days...you know high school...when we had HUGE hair...was that only here? (i am not so red that my hair is still big...i assure you that...but back in the day...and yes the majority of women who live here...still have big hair...sad!)

took jay to see nanny mcphee yesterday...loved it....you should take your girls!!!

I really wish you would slap some sense into my WH! i would love to watch!

Happy Sunday!

Jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,
I'm glad you're feeling a little better today.

Your WH's excuse about his meds kicking in is the lamest thing I have heard lately. Praytell, how long does the doctor think it should take until he comes to his senses??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Go see a movie... even though Walk The Line was about Johnny Cash's affair, I still liked it. Or King Kong. Or something?

Who is Nanny McPhee?

Happy Sunday to you too!

MSA

Hi JM,

Been out of town a few days, haven't been able to check here or start my thread...

Sounds like your riding the rollercoaster, and from what I've read, this is very normal. I don't know if this is comforting in any way, but try to remember the reality of your situation, it seems to help me when I take a step back and look at things for what they really are.

Seems to me like your H is having some unfoggy moments, his responses say to me that he knows that he is doing wrong. He seems to be in more conflict than before, so the signs are good! If he is trying to resolve things internally, then he will be waivering between withdrawal/fog, and clarity. (Which includes compassion for you) If I remember right, you are at ~5mths of this crap, and from what I've read in other posts, and the clues your husband is giving, and how you're reacting, sounds like you're ALL right on schedule. (sad, I know..)

So HANG IN THERE! Your doing well! If your unsure what to do, strengthen your Plan A to epic proportions, until you know and feel comfortable doing something else more drastic. I'm not opposing plan B, but until you know for SURE, make your Plan A as good as you can. This will make for a MUCH better Plan B.

Work his compassion angle, get him even involved in helping you, give him tasks (take out the trash? i dunno) that are family related, but not necessarily focused on your relationship. Give him these opportunities to live in the REAL world, where there are responsibilities and bills to be paid. Obviously he has compassion for you if he leaves the lights on, and freaks out when he doesn't know where you and Jay are!

And make it as painless as possible. He is comparing his REAL life with you to the fantasy (ie. perfect..in his mind) world he has created. It sounds like his fantasy world is encountering more and more pressure, and starting to suck more and more, eventually this A will die its natural death! Don't think it, KNOW IT! Would you want to live in limbo for the rest of your life? Neither does he. And the OW does NOT want to fully commit to him. Eventually the pain of the A will exceed the fear of rebuilding your marriage!

He will realize that if he decides to choose the fantasy, it will be a lot of WORK! And rebuilding a marriage is a lot of work (I've heard..yeah I'm green). Make rebuilding less work than sticking with the fantasy. He'll take the path of least resistance, especially when depressed.

His cake eating sucks, keep your firm resolve, don't feel like a doormat, for you have WAY more discipline than him. It is HIM who has enslaved his own life. He's his own doormat, and he is wiping his feet on his own mind every day. You are the better person right now, don't worry what others think, trust me they are ALL amazed at what you're able to endure right now, even if they disagree with it. At the end of all of this, people will be lining up to pat you on the back!

What is your Plan A goal time limit? NO ONE expects you to do this forever! Recommit to your goals, and when he comes around, get ready for recovery, I hear its the hard part, but at least you'll be on the same road with your H, headed in the same direction.

DON'T GIVE UP!!! Take care of yourself & Jay!

Its February today.

it WAS my favorite month.

tough week guys. CJ thanks for the post. I so needed it. My best friend has been upset with me and i feel so bad over it. January is a hard month for her and i haven't been very supportive of her. I feel so selfish, but yet i just can't seem to pull enough energy together to think straight for myself anymore. She has been so good to me and i don't feel i return anything to anyone.

Hopefully things will brighten up soon...for everyone.

Things on the home front pretty much the same. H still coming down daily. Nothing much has changed there. I am losing my strength though...and H is very much aware of this. We have had a couple of deep conversations and i do most of the talking...he just listens. Hardly says a word. but he never stops me, or says anything...he just sits there and listens.

Last night after he left i had to call him to make sure he was picking up Jay today after school, i forgot to ask him earlier. after i asked him...i started talking about things and really broke down on him. Of course, i have broken down before in the past 5 months but as i said before...he knows i am just about to my limit. After i finished saying all i could...i asked something (i said so much i dunno what i asked at that point, or even said..but i was crying)and he answered me...very broken up. He wasn't even trying to hide it much. He was broken up.

when i realized he was...i was so shocked i couldn't hardly think. so i am like going crazy in my mind trying to figure out what i said. the only thing i said to him that was different from things said in the past was that i was sorry for going back to work part time. When i did this (part-time) we were majorly suffering financially. with paying a baby-sitter and gas...it really was fairly equal, but not really. H didn't really want me to go part time, and i knew i shouldn't but selfishly wanted to believe we could handle it otherwise. He told the babysitter, at the time, he was afraid to tell me that. so he never did.

i only found out today from her (she is my friend) that he had told her that. Down deep i've always known that was a major part of his resentment towards me. ??? i have never apologized for that since he left.

the only other thing ...i told him i held on to him telling me he loved me more than anything in this world. i said..i have held on to that for 5 months. that was the last thing i really remember saying to him.

what do you think it means? He hasn't been that way before. Not like that. Is it possible that i have made a break in this? or am i too hopeful?

I don't know guys if i have been doing the Plan A right. Now i know what your thinking...my goodness..you've been doing it for a while...but it just hit me after reading CJ's post...maybe i have been doing it wrong alot.

now really guys i am not blonde but let me just put it out there. Am i NOT suppose to ever mention anything about OW to him in Plan A? i know no LBs, (i try) only loving and kindness ( i do most of the time ) but i mention the A, the OW, his needing to commit to me or her, blah blah....

am i wrong in doing that. I think i mention it too much...i go for several days not saying anything...we get along great...but then i start getting fed up and mention things. I am never mean about it...just firm. sometimes...well alot of times...i throw my sense of humor in...usually at the wrong times...

i guess what i am saying is...do i go about this by not mentioning her at all, not mentioning the A, not pushing him to end it, not pushing him period?

He does do alot around the house. He takes the trash up every week to be picked up. works on things. fixes my car when needed. buys things (detergent, little things for me), offers me money...so he does do some things. at first i was very stubborn and wouldn't let him..now i tell him how much i appreciate what he does.

let me know what you think? sure could use it!!!

Jaysmom

Good question!! MSA, any help here? How do we mention the OP?

My take: I don't think we should NEVER mention the OP, I'm not into being dishonest about the situation and conflict avoiding, BUT the frequency and manner is likely important... I think that we should try to offer the path of least resistance, BUT to ignore this completely is to be dishonest with oneself.

It depends on the people involved. Here's where I think we have something in common, JM. Our spouses will NOT acknowlege that there is another person! Your H denies completely, my W denies that it is romantic in any way. This lets them avoid the issues completely, and I think this is unfair and immature!! For crying out loud, my WW and OM WERE CONSIDERING HAVING SEX!!! Is that not crossing the friend boundary!!! Sorry, enough about me...

So it's a fine line, offer safety, and once in a while mention how it makes you feel, and go from there. I don't know how often, depends on the person. I think about once a week for me, the other 6 days of the week I can offer EN's. Then it is 'safe' being with me the vast majority of the time.

I also think that it is important for them to know that we are prepared to work towards forgiveness, so that they know that we are willing to accept their mistakes.

Really could use some help on this MSA! What did you do? What are you doing during recovery? What signs do you look for to see if your words are having ANY effect?

By the way MSA, hoping your recovery is still going well!

Cya girls...

Jaysmom & CJ...
I did talk to WH a lot about OW; too much in fact... he told me things that she would say etc that in hindsight would upset me for days later. But I never could resist collecting info about her/them at the time... but it always threw me off kilter later...

My WH, once he told me about OW (a month after he said he wanted to move out & didn't love me anymore) was pretty open about the status of their affair, and we talked about it a lot. So my sitch was a bit different.

What I did notice is that nothing I said to him had nearly the effect of what I did (like telling him it was over & I didn't think I needed to listen to all the ways I had wronged him in our M, when I filed for D). Telling him I couldn't wait anymore and it sounded like he had made his choice was what brought him around both times.

Reread Harley's info here on Plan A / Plan B. I think it's okay to talk about OP if it's not in an angry or disrespectful way. Be careful with the humor, it can come across to them as condescending I think...

We are 10 mos into recovery & things are going well - ups & downs, but NOTHING as hard as during the A.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSA

Thx for the thoughts MSA, I think you were lucky in a way to be able to talk to your H and extract info, but I can sure see how this would fuel your obsessive thoughts...must've been hard. On second thoughts, I don't know if this would've been easier, they say ignorance is bliss! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JM & J, hope your taking care of yourself! I always include you in my prayers!

Well, I got my thread going, if you want some entertainment, check it out, I was going to post on GQII, but I can't seem to get in there once I'm logged in! Anyone ever had that prob?

L8r.

Exposing my privates! EA turned mess!! Help!

CJ i just read your post. WOW! i thought my sitch was bad but i think you've got me beat. I cannot imagine if my H was foolin' around with my best friend. (it would never happen...she doesn't much care for him anyway HA) but really that would so suck! If i had not had her i don't know what i would do! in the beginning it was so hard because i couldn't talk to him...and if she had not been there for me i would just die!

that just blows my mind. You've just been smacked twice! and you are still living together? wow!

no one has posted on your thread yet so i will to give it a bump up!

Last night H was grouchy. Is grouchy good? He still came down and hung out with us but seemed a little grouchy. something was bothering him, he was trying really hard to not let it show. made me a little sad too. I had hoped that my conversation the night before had gone somewhere. but then again..maybe it did and the grouchiness was due to him dealing internally with things. Hey...maybe OWH has caught on too...i would have NO way of knowing. maybe something like that???

I told him again last night, to his face this time, that i loved him and wanted to work on our M. He wouldn't look me in the eye, but stood there and muttered yeah. Yeah. thats better than the normal silence. then he changed the subject.

I am trying to take care of me and Jay. Doing the best i can. Holding on to Romans 8:28. i read it almost daily, gives me fuel i need. Jay seems to be doing much better. I just hope that my H coming daily will not end and make things worse. MIL seems to think H won't be able to not come by...but that he is just trying to work on coming home. best friend said so for the longest too. so hard for me to hope that when he tells me nothing!

gonna take Jay to another movie this weekend. MSA..by the way....Nanny McPhee is kinda like Mary Poppins. Jay loves the Poppins...still likes Poppins better but he did enjoy the movie.

thank you guys for the CONSTANT support and prayers! definitely need it! Lifts me up so many days!!!

MSA...? for you...when your H came around you said he was contrite. Did he ever seem resentful? at first i mean. What exactly did he do? while he was gone and couldn't decide...i think in a way...i wish my H would tell me instead of denying but then again i don't know HOW you put up with listening to him talk about OW as if she were the best thing ever. Sometimes i think it is a blessing that my H denies OW...that makes me feel like he cares enough about me to not totally destroy me...then again...he knows i know...sometimes i think he does it to...destroy me!

Just curious.

jaysmom

Hi JM and MSA,

I reposted on GQII, seems I needed to turn my default view to "collapsed so that I the server didn't run out of memory...just a tip.

So now I'm HERE.

Keep up the good work! Sounds like your H is turning some corners, he broke down did he? This would be hard to do in front of you! Esp for someone SO closed! I know, I live it.

From what I've read, resentment (ie. grouchy) can be GOOD! Take it is as a good sign, embrace it. If he is resenting you, or better yet just being grouchy but NOT at you, then he's likely trying to separate himself from OW or they are having troubles or OW is making herself distant. How would a crack addict behave towards you if you took away his pipe? Probably be pissed off even if he could reason that it was for the greater good. It might seem contradictory, but if he's in an exceptionally GOOD mood, I've read that he might again be basking in the affection from both of you, be mindful, but DON'T jump to this conclusion either! Keep safety!

Sounds like you've got him in the grey area, keep him there, and pour on the coal!! EXPECT him to vacillate right now, when he feels guilty and the withdrawal, he will want a hit of his "drug". If he does, he'll get more guilty and as he starts to implode, he'll vent at YOU, most likely. KEEP YOUR COOL!

Take his power away, if you don't react, he cannot get any dirt on you to blame you further. If you don't know what to say, walk away. It will confuse the he!! out of him. But DON'T take the blame either, stand up for yourself in subtle, firm ways, you don't need to go along with everything he says if you don't agree, but keep asking the open-ended questions about these things you disagree about, people are forced to form thoughts when they talk, and if he listens to himself enough, he'll find his own way out of the fog. You can't control his actions, but you can one he!! of an influence.

Protect Jay, he's your reason and inspiration, and think of your marriage as a child that needs nuturing also, think of it as separate from your H right now, know that the man you're dealing with right now is NOT the one you married, don't let this man make you fall out of love with the one you knew. Think of Plan A as a search and rescue mission, without getting self-righteous...you are right on track!

Maybe you've read these, but here are some Plan A links, I know I'm novice, but I think Plan A just finally clicked for me in the last 3 wks... see what you think:

plan a tips and musings...get grounded here

UPDATED: What to Expect if Your Spouse is Having an Affair

**** Bob's Newly Betrayed Spouse MB Toolkit **** TONS OF INFO!!!!

Hope this helps...I also think that each situation is different, we are dealing with human beings here, after all. Some things are slightly contradicting, explore the thoughts, and tailor them to your needs!

Good Luck! Take care! Hi and bye MSA!

Hey guys! Its finally Friday!!!

CJ--just what i needed to hear today. I hope i didn't screw up but last night had myself another cry session. Have not cried much in front of him at all since he left, so i wasn't too worried. I honestly think it was good. He needs to know I AM human also, i do have feelings and they DO matter...which he hasn't even considered! so i don't think it was a bad thing.

He was fairly grouchy again and was just being a real butt. (you guys probably think i am crazy with some of the expressions i use...HA) He bit my head off over nothing..and that got the tears a flowin'.

i got up and went to the bedroom before he could see i was upset but almost immediately he came in there asking me "whats wrong?" i broke down then. I don't think it was too bad, it's been 5 freakin' months for crying out loud. He has come and gone and DID someone else while i sat at home with our son...i think it's time he see's that i am losing it a bit. to heck with Plan A. sick and tired of being nice.

really i'm not i'm just venting to you a bit. I'll continue until God says otherwise.

Anyway...he left and said nothing more. kept giving me the "well my pills haven't kicked in" "i am mental..you know" Ughh!!! scr*w his pills. I am the one who is going mental. I did tell him i was sick of those excuses. he knows. He left me just bawling in the corner of the bedroom. the weird thing after he was gone i felt 100% better.

think he slept well knowing how upset he thought i was...?
i doubt it. Hasn't slept well in the past 5 months with all the guilt. Just heaping the coal CJ.

I think...and you know i probably am wrong...but i think the pills ARE kicking in...and i think me not making his life easy anymore...that the REALITY of things are finally coming thru. He KNOWS...if he pushes me much more ...He loses me. He KNOWS...he has NOTHING for the future with MRS HAGGARD..married...wealthy...not leaving her money bags husband(okay i'll stop there) for him.

He is starting to see the light and he hates it. He hates that I am not accepting to his way of living anymore and he HATES that he KNOWS he must make a choice to do something soon.

So anyway enough about me. I have vented and feel much better. Suppose to snow tomorrow guys. they predict 3-4 inches...thats HUGE snow here!! Life will shut down if it does..heck they may close the mall...doesn't that crack you up?

CJ hope everything is going well...i checked and glad you posted on GQ...

MSA hope your doing well.

gotta plan Jays big birthday party this weekend (he turns 4 on the 23rd) He is a spongebob-aholic. said yesterday..in his words...I want a patrick...PEEYAATA...he is my hope and joy!!

happy friday guys! take care!

JM

Hi JM,
I just don't have anything profound to add today... so I'll just say how much I adore SpongeBob and that I hope you had a great party!

MSA

thanks MSA! we just started planning the party we still have a few weeks to go until ...but let me just say...Jay CANNOT wait.

things about the same. H still coming and going. I am starting to just lose it more. I don't know. Am i doing the right thing by just being a friend to him?

nothing seems right. I am not to the point that i want to throw everything out the door just yet, so i am just not ready to move or get any legal papers...i am at a stand still.

Is that okay? I mean everyone thinks...H is easing his way back home. I never wanted him EASING home. I wanted this big ordeal i think. You know the crying the sorrow. But...maybe that will come only later? He WANTS to be with us. My best friend thinks that the A will eventually fizzle out. so does MIL. MIL thinks its close. I think so too...simply because either they commit to one another or the guilt and burden of the A will eventually become to heavy to bear? right? thoughts?

Although i did not want it to just simply fizzle out. I thought it would be dramatic. You know. OMG my wife and child are gone. (and in the end..that may be the case) but seeing how he wants to be with us and him knowing he can't continue with it much longer...leads me to believe he is easing as some say. Is it okay to let him ease back. let me explain what i mean. Can he ease back and then we can work on all the problems? Nothing is coming out the way i am trying to put it on here. I guess i am asking...even though he doesn't want to talk about things, but Wants to be with us...everyday...longer and longer, eventually will the openness come? eventually after spending more and more time with us and less with her is that possibly the ticket for us? is easing in my sitch okay? then later when he knows without a doubt he simply doesn't want to be without us can we tackle the big questions and problems. then move toward counsel? those things? Is allowing him to be around us good? i think maybe in my sitch it is simply due to his severe depression also? feedback?

In the SAA book the example given...the WW didn't really want to come home and in the book it states she was never really sorry or apologetic. maybe my case is very close to the same.

Oh i don't know...just trying to find something that makes since in my screwed up life.

i am starting to lose alot of feeling for him. even the "i know i love him" doesn't seem to be present. now i feel i am living with i just want God's will for me and Jay. Whatever that may be. I always feel God's will is for us to be together so i continue to try and stay strong. Not much in my bank left. really hoping for something good soon.

really dreading the 14th. and 15th...which is my birthday. at least i get them over with in one punch. H always made such a big deal over me on those days. Usually sending flowers...both days...just to make the girls at work talk. ughh!

hope your doing well....CJ--hope your still hanging in there!

thank you both for all the prayers!

JM

Valentines Day really sucks for the separated. No getting around that. Just know that last V-Day my H left me my house key at my request in a card on my pillow. This Valentine's day we celebrate almost a year of no contact with OW and will be going out to dinner, 10 mos fully into recovery.

Easing back into the marriage can happen, but NC with OW is critical. I'm really sorry that exposure didn't yet seem to bring about the desired result of accountability to your H and OW. But don't give up hope that it will. OWH knows and will be on the lookout, whether he wants to be or not I think.

Mostly, remember that God loves you, and your WH, and Jay, and He wants your family whole and healed.

Continue to pray for peace, comfort, direction, clarity, and God's will for you and your WH. I know this time must have cemented your relationship with God, the One who will never cast shadows, bring chaos, or betray your love for Him. Be patient, God's timing is not our timing; He has the whole picture and we do not.

MSA

Hi JM,

How are you and J? Was out of town with the band last wkend, so I couldn't check here. My girls aren't much into spongebob, so I don't get to watch it, but I've heard of crabby-patties...

OK, just my take on these things, again I would say that I'm NO counselor, and you are about a month or two ahead of me here, so I can tell your frustration is coming to a boil. I'm sorry you have to be dealing with this, no it is not fair.

I think your line thought is good, you're really considering all of the angles here, you're very aware of what you are surrounded with... I think that H easing back is OK; to a point. If you want him back, and this is the way that he comes back, then this is what you need to do. You mentioned this is what he did last time. You need to let him, but you don't need to be abused emotionally while he does this, be loving, meet needs, but don't take his crap. You do NOT need him hurting you about insignificant things, and I suspect that part of him wants to be at home, and part of him is coming unwillingly. You really have to think like HIM to know how to deal with him. Keep sight on what you want, and before you do anything, try to ask yourself,"will this get me what I want?". This helps pull the logic back into your emotions. It helps me.

Don't worry about showing emotion here and there, yes I agree with you, he should be aware of the pain he has caused. YOU don't need to own HIS guilt. Let him feel guilty, he should! It is part of reality, reality IS where you want him. Expect that every time he hurts, he may turn it outward onto you. Don't react back with anger, react later when he is calm, allow him to feel responsible if he hurts you further, give him an extra helping of guilt when he acts this way by staying calm, close your eyes, take your time to think and respond with logical retorts that are respectful to yourself. And he's feeling guilty, I have NO doubt. Let him talk himself into corners, if he'll talk; only HE can find his way out of this...

But remember, you need to make his environment more pleasurable than painful, you must be careful about how often you burst, but there is NOTHING wrong with you being human, after all being vulerable is what promotes intimacy...let him know he can come to you with his feelings.

I'm worried about your feelings for him though...sounds like you're running out of gas sometimes...I don't want you to give up, it seems like you're close to a breakthrough, but it is so hard to say. I know you feel stuck, and now that I've learned more, I agree with MSA, doing Plan B in a Plan A kind of way will not work, it is the psychological impact that works; the jolt!

He fears losing you, it is SO obvious. So I'm thinking Plan B here, but that's SO easy for me to say; I'm unsure of being able to do this myself. But if you want this to work, you need to protect your feelings for him. Read some old love letters, look at some old pictures. (If you can do this without hurting yourself) Remember the man that is in the photos is who you love, NOT the one hurting you now

Is there anything else you can do that will give him a jolt?

Again, until you know, stay in Plan A. But intensify the feelings for him that the clock is ticking. Errantly put wedding pix near his homely hideouts (couch). Pack up all his stuff and put it in a corner for him to see? I read something about doing the 180 treatment somewhere, and act TOTALLY like you're leaving. MSA, you know about this?

Just some ideas, I really don't what will work, help me brainstorm... his fence-sitting is ridiculous. Are you sure he isn't really having the affair with a fence?!

Dunno if this helps, but I am getting restless with my own sitch, just tired, y'know? So I think I'm getting a taste of what you are dealing with. 2mths from now? Oh boy, it will be hard, I told her she is going the lose me, and I've lost the doormat attitude, but I've remained loving. I think I've got some gas in the tank, but she shows me absolutely NOTHING!! Sound familiar? My bandmate went through a divorce due to a WW, he says, when I'm absolutely DONE, I will know. He doesn't think I'm done yet.

I'm dreading the 14th and 15th too. V-day then my 3yr anniversary. I'm don't know what to do, I don't know what she'll do. She has our annvers marked on the calendar!? Huh?

If you're not sure, then you aren't done yet either. Hang in there, but be mindful of your Love Bank. Protect your marriage BEFORE you protect your WH right now.

Don't try to make sense of your screwed up life. This is irrational. Period. You've read my story, how the he!! does it make sense?! Rational thinking is NOT for WS's. Don't get discouraged when reasoning with them makes you feel crazy, YOU'RE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So we gotta crack these NUTS, help me brainstorm... Oh, and what is your take on V-day, I don't know what to plan, do you?

Take care of yourself, give Jay a big hug, and love the colossal effort that you are putting forth, you are doing the best things you can do, you ARE RIGHT, and someday you'll look back on this with admiration for yourself.

Hi MSA!!

Cheers.

Eureka! I think CJ has finally figured out your WH!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSA

Morning guys!

thanks for the posts! i thought there was something about that fence and my ol'wayward!

you know its going on the 6 month mark. here i sit. Am i the fool? cause i love my H. Love my family. i want the best for Jay...obviously. but AM I?

my best friend told me very kindly again last night. "i'm telling you...pack a bag for a day or two and it will do a world of good!"

I am a wuss! i am scared. What if it doesn't do any good? the whole exposure thing has me in an uproar! and really...it probably did do good, but i just am too close to see it. after exposure is when i saw the biggest change in him. the constant "needing" to be with us. the worry of "where are they" at times.

He doesn't seem interested in me intimately at all. what is up with that? is it because he is getting it from her? he did almost agree with me last week when i said to him...you don't want me but you don't want anyone else to have me. He didn't say anything but his expression was enough. No he definitely doesn't want anyone else to have me. He changes the subject QUICK if i go there.

I don't want to end in D. He doesn't want that. but i am struggling with WHAT. what is it i can do. there has to be something that will make an impact on him. I don't mind him wanting to come home...and if easing in is his way then okay...BUT...huge butt here...I want him to KNOW what he played with. OUR LIVES ...he gambled our M, family, our son. I want him to understand. i feel if he doesn't have that...he will never realize his wrong.

we brushed it under the rug before. He never admitted to anyone. never lost me. Never had to really fear losing me. He had his guilt which was hard on him and worried i would find out...but ...when i did...we talked about it. that was it. Nothing else. He never had to face what he did. Maybe thats why we are here today. He doesn't really believe he has lost anything. at times he worries but...then i am always there.

but i just don't know. Leaving or filing has never seemed to be right in my head. i wish i could think of something that would slap him with reality.

I know you guys are getting tired of me. MSA has said all she could. i know when you filed it made the difference. but i just don't know if i can do anything right now. will i feel differently, will i know when its time? but.. i don't want to wait until everything is dead inside of me for him. again...am i the fool? i just want to do what i can for our M, for Jays benefit.

yesterday standing in the grocery store, looking at the cereal boxes...it hit me like a ton of bricks. He thinks I am a choice. really thinks Jay and I are a choice. just like a box of cereal. picks us up for a couple of hours a day and places us back on the shelf. (this coming after he told me earlier in the day..he just didn't know what he wanted...meaning our M...me and Jay). How do i get up and still love him? I was a choice 12 years ago when he asked me to marry him. Not now. I am his w. a loving, caring, forgiving, w. She is M. not planning to leave...but he seems fine with it. He doesn't seem to want her longterm...

so what the heck? I am a choice?????? POS!!! see how the anger just takes over sometimes! HA!

I wish i just knew how to make an impact without disrupting my son's life all together. seems like there should be something. i wish exposing had've done it. but really i knew before i did it ...it wouldn't end cold turkey ...i didn't really want it to ...because of me that way...but because it died on it's own.


do A's really die a natural death...and how so?


oh..i am rambling...guys thanks for looking in on me...means alot! in one week i will be 33. i feel old. At least i look younger. OW however looks 15 years older than her 40 whatever. there is a silver lining in everything huh?

CJ--i must know something. You play in a band? what do you play? what kind of music? does your W go with you when you play? see i am the jealous type...i just don't know if i could deal with the girls around you!!! interesting.

happy wednesday!!

Jaysmom

P.S. something cute from Jay... in planning his b-day party i was asking what kind of juice,soda he wanted to have for his friends...i said how 'bout orange...he said "mom, God got you a boy who doesn't like orange...your 'pose to know that...Gods 'pose to tell you."
ain't he cute!!!

Hi JM,

Hey I'm not sick of you, I know where your at, heck I had to get my Mom to convince me that I was a good person the other night, it took her awhile too... so I know how demoralizing this is...keep yer chin up!

MSA posts a LOT, supporting lots of people, I'm amazed she gets here as much as she does, quite a soul!

He's not into you intimately right now because that would require him to be vulerable, at he's CLEARLY not into that right now! People don't like to admit they've been ugly, he would need to admit these things if he opens up. DON'T take it personally.

He already knows it's wrong. When he comes around this time don't let him sweep it under the carpet, make him go to counseling and commit to getting this all out in the open. This is only way you can heal, HOW can you rebuild unless you start with honesty, which is needed to lead to trust?

I mean, honesty is one of the basic needs!!! Don't settle for anything less once he is out of the fog!

Again, I live it. This is why I identify with you. Our S's are such closed books, I don't even know if they have ANY freakin' pages! Remember it is them that are hollow...not you, you are simply allowing yourself to feel!

You are not A choice, you are THE choice. This is what he vowed years ago. God does NOT allow us to make second choices, I wish I could remember the recent passage I read. Divorce is considered a sin! The one left standing, in my interpretation is NOT given a choice. Marriage is about joint decisions, you are made as ONE person in God's design.

I know, this line of thought won't work on him...it's for you...

My band plays everything, alot of country but lately ~40% rock. I like metal, Pantera was the thing for me 'til 'ol Dime died... (huh? hehe)

That's the thing, my W met me because of the band, kinda makes for built-in paranoia doesn't it? But I stay in the background, I'm not very showy, just like playing... yeah, there are girls around, if I went to parties and pushed the issue, well....I don't, how would I feel if I knew I caused this type of pain for my girls, for my W?? Couldn't do it, couldn't live with myself. I say this only because I'm AWARE that I could, (as Dr. Harley says, we are ALL wired for it) but it's my responsibility NOT TO! Once, b4 married, W and I had a fight, i was convinced it was over... so I flirted at the next gig, and this girl kissed me out of the blue.(Well, yeah obviously I was to blame too) Whoa! Stopped RIGHT there! My fault, my mistake, just needed an ego boost, I guess. Not what I meant, I learned alot right there... I learned how easy these things happen... my W knows... I wasn't married at the time, it was 4 mths into our dating, but I know it wasn't right...

And yeah, my W is (was?, now she's not so sure...) convinced that I had cheated on her!! Accused me ALL the time just after D-day. Now I know how typical this is of WS's so I just tell her she's plain wrong. Yeah, she's the jealous type, I guess this fueled her suspicions, but why not tell me b4 it ruins things? I think it is just an excuse!

God is 'pose to tell you, keep listening, maybe some time away would be good for you, take a break, let him sweat a couple days, find some quiet, and listen for God. Jay sounds great, remember you've still got him. Hmm, my SD's fav color is orange... and I'm wearing an orange shirt today (xmas gift from W). Jay wouldn't like us...

cheers!

Hi JM & CJ -
Jaysmom, I'm not sick of you! But I am sick FOR you that this is enduring so long... and I think you realize that A's can go on and on and on and on... dying a natural death is NOT something you want to put yourself thru.

First, you exposed and did Plan A.

Now it may be time for Plan B. I really hope you open yourself up to some options like that. Even leaving town with Jay for a couple days. Anything. A letter to your WH. Call Dr. Harley. Something to move him off the fence.

You are so right, you so 'get it' that your H knows you didn't go anywhere and you won't, he knows he will always have you to fall back on. How comfy for him, how shi+ty for you. Sorry, there's just no other way I can think to say it.

If you are OK with waiting this out, it's alright for now doing your Plan A. But realize that it could go on for a long long time.

CJ - you still didn't say your instrument...

MSA

hey guys! we got snow today. yeeha!

not enough to keep me home though! oh well...made Jay happy!

yesterday H must've spent the day with his old, haggardly, nasty, woman. he could've kept our son but claimed he had a meeting and couldn't. yeah right. he came home last night toting a bag full of toys for jay...expensive ones. new game for playstation...etc. He bounced 3 checks last week and spends over $ 100 last night on Jay...right before his birthday. guilt huh?

i tried staying to myself and ignoring him...but that makes him mad. crazy. begs me to hang out with them and then puts Jay up to asking me to play games with them.

I guess i am doing okay...considering. honestly though...what do we have left? i have done my best to keep it together but he just keep using and hurting me. i have to do something. maybe i will take jay to my sisters this weekend

CJ--your too cool. I love rock, country...pretty much everything. I sing around the house...make up stupid songs...one of the things my H used to adore about me. Always loved music and so does my son! maybe i'll come to canada and be a groupee!!!HA!

hey...MSA is right you didn't say what you play. my H bought me a guitar for Christmas last year (2004) cause i always wanted one and i was sooooo happy and surprized! don't know how to play it but it was so sweet.

so what is it you play!

guys thanks for the support and advice! thanks for the prayers! gotta go take care of the patients now!

JM

Oh, yeah, I play guitar! I LOVE it! Oh yeah, I play keyboards a little too, esp at weddings (yeah they're SO MUCH fun these days) I play cheesy seven-steps and stuff on keys with an accordian sound. Yes, believe it, I AM too cool! (Oh well the old ladies always come and talk to me and say what a nice little "orchestra" we have... funny!)

See...I have a ways to go with my listening skills, I got on a rant and forgot to answer your question! HAHAHA Let me review your Q's...

No W doesn't go, used to, but now she just watches the kids and won't go anywere, even with other people... I've been trying to get her out of this habit ever since we moved in together...

We have a tune on the radio in Canada, I think one station in the States is playing it...called"what I wouldn't give", if you heard the lyrics, you'd laugh, it describes my life... we're recording on a new one called,"Road to Redemption". FIGURES. HA! We gotta pick different songs!!!!

Anyway, hope you're doing alright...dunno what to say, ignoring him makes him MAD? That's a GREAT sign. Relish it. Use it, if it helps reel him in, sabotage things when he demands a little, intrigue him. Then spend the time with him on your terms, when YOU want, make him WORK to get you, this is a skill that he ought to practice...just a thought! This is a much more constructive thing than angry outbursts...

You still are inspiring! Keep exploring the different things you might do... your discipline is just amazing...I still concerned though about you losing your feelings...

How can you rock this boat?

Oh, in case I forget, happy B'Day!!! (15th, right?) NO YOU'RE NOT OLD! Good grief...women...

l8tr JM & Jay!

Hey guys!

Hope everyone had a decent Valentines Day. CJ hope things went well for you...MSA...i KNOW this year was much better for you.

CJ just caught up on your thread. Hope your hanging in there. i just want you to know that everything i read...seems so much like my life. Strange isn't it. How so many people have such similar lives. Your W and my H are just so much alike. Not wanting to face anything. i can see them both now...standing in a corner with their eyes squeezed tightly shut hoping and praying EVERYTHING would just disappear and life would be normal for them again. But they just don't seem to understand...doesn't work that way. THEY have to eventually own up to THEIR mistakes and THEIR wrongs and FACE reality, or living as they are just may eventually take it's toll on them.

My H didn't even mention Valentines day to me yesterday. Of course he spent the evening with us, as usual. He did buy a card for jake to give me...that was pretty big for him i think. I did the same for him but i also bought him a card from me just to add some extra guilt on him. Worked too! he sat on the couch all sad acting. good!

He still comes down daily...each day spending more and more time and relaxing a bit more. He bought us supper and brought it home twice in the past few days...something he hasn't done in the past. I haven't said much of anything to him lately. Trying not to. everytime i open my mouth i LB. but i haven't been a push over either. i grabbed his arms and pulled him close to me Monday night and made him look me in the eye. I asked him what he was doing, he answered his normal goofy self...having dinner. I said..."you tell me you come down here to see Jay...what about me?" before he avoided that ? totally. this time he was looking at me and very softly said..."why else do you THINK i come down here?" i asked him to look at me and tell me if he was trying and he looked me in the eye and said..."what do you think?" but he was sweet about it. that was as far as i took the conversation. thought it best to leave it there for now.

When i don't say much and just show love to him and kindness...my gosh you can read the guilt on his face. I did mention to him that same night i did not plan on sharing him with OW any longer...that it was almost 6 months and i am more than fed up with things...then threw in HIS usual remark...by adding...HE was really making me mental!

Oh well...i just keep hanging on. One of the Doc's i work for got a kick out of my ringer on my phone the other day.."keep me hanging on" story of my life huh?

My H came down this morning and helped me get Jay ready for school. did this yesterday too. Helped me get his V-day party stuff together. He DID wish me a Happy Birthday today! Just as we were leaving last thing he said to me...probably spending the day with OW...but i am sure it will not be pretty! He just seems to be eat up with guilt these days...this is good right?

CJ--Hope your anniversary goes well for you! I will keep you in my prayers! and thank you for wishing me a Happy Birthday! You are just too cool! I've never known anyone famous before and now i can say i do -sort of! HA! Would love to hear your song...let us know if we can...

ONLY ONE station in the states? come on boy...get it out there...we're waiting! Is it country? rock?

Oh wait...just had a flashback from the movie the "wedding singer" when you were saying you played for little old ladies at weddings! HA!

Guys hope your well! thanks for looking in on me! Gotta take my old butt to work now!

Jaysmom

Happy birthday, Jaysmom!

Yes, Valentine's Day was better than last year. Things DO get better, one way or another.

This limbo state you are in, not knowing & waiting, is the WORST. Use it to get closer to God. He can and will help you thru the days.

MSA

Hi JM,

How are you doing? How did your b'day go? I hope it was OK! I'm sorry your H didn't mention v'day to you... in a healthy relationship, that is abusive, far as I'm concerned... well, I guess healthy isn't where you are... hope your OK, remember, it's him not you, OK? Glad he said"happy b'day?" At least he knows... and he does, HE knows the hurt he's causing, he just doesn't know what to do right now...

Yeah, our S's have similarities. I ask my W wife stuff that I think would just be IMPOSSIBLE for her NOT to consider, and she says,"I don't know" or "I haven't thought about it..." Again their problem, not ours. It's just tough though, how could you NOT consider things that affect the future of peoples' (PLURAL!!!) lives? I think they must to a degree, but don't want to admit it to us OR themselves... much easier!

Hmmm, still doing lots for you hey? Really seems like he needs to keep his options open. Maybe OW is retreating, maybe rejecting him. Either emotionally, sexually, or both. Seems this A never meant enough to her to fully commit, maybe it is him hanging on. I'm SO SORRY to make you think these thoughts, I like to keep things happy!!!

But I still wonder if this is a silver lining, y'know? Her H MUST be watching her like a hawk if he cares at all... him being a Christian, I doubt that they are swingers!

And consider that perhaps there is no physical going on these days, I gotta wonder if this is all fizzling out, sure sounds like it... yeah i hear ya, the not knowing is the worst!

Any way you can find out? More survellience? Just a thought, DON't do it if you can't handle it! Sometimes ignorance is bliss! And I'm still worried that if the news is bad, that'll kill your last bits of determination... please realize I'm biased, I'm at 3.5mths of this, and I'm getting more curious as to what's going on in my life, and thinking of taking action... make sure you do what's right for you!

But I can't help but wonder, what if the news is good? But you know, if you dance with the devil... DON'T GET CAUGHT!!

I don't know if my advice is good at all... the last thing you want to do is make his visits tough... knowing bad info might make your behavior different, whether you know it or not, so take care of yourself, OK?

Sounds like you're doing a good plan A, I'm trying too, not perfect... but doing my best, I don't think that it's bad for WS's to know your feelings here and there, they need to know here and there what they do has consequences... I like to think of it as if a have a valve for it, and I let it out here and there, and then control it...

my W has been so much nicer to me since I broke down last week, but I'm afraid that it is just b/c she knows I'm hurting... and not b/c she feels anything... but y'know... if she wasn't concerned at all, why would she care? If I can build on this concern, then maybe that's the way? Why shouldn't they feel guilty?! But i try to remember, no DJ's, no angry outbursts, but truth is truth, and I don't mind saying things that are indisputable, and I don't mind being confident, what do I have to lose?

What do you think about this? MSA do you have any thoughts? Do we need to suppress everything? I think expressing feelings without LB'ing is necessary for connection. This is what I'm getting from LovingAnyways' posts. Is there truth to this, esp from S's who are "easing their way back"?

I would classify our song as modern country... our new one is definitly in the "Keith Urban" vein... hmmm, not like Pantera at all!! heheh

Of course you bought a card, let him be sad, you're gonna Plan A him to death! woo hoo! Still can't help but think you're turning some corners, be creative with little things that accelerate snagging him at home, I dunno, make him watch Jay at home while you go out, would this drive him nuts? Would he do it? Maybe he needs a taste of your situation, it's certainly NOT too much for you to ask Jay's father to take care of him, is it? Course it's not too much to ask for faithfulness EITHER!! haha

Hope Jay enjoyed Valentine's Day, a little chocolate goes a long way!

"Wedding Singer", eh? Hmmm, never done a barmitzvah b4...

Pray. Scream. Write yourself a love letter. Strength. BE. Cheers!

Hey guys!

Well CJ-my birthday went well thank you for asking. My best friend took me and Jay out to dinner, we had a really good time. When i got home...H came down. He had a card for Jay to give me with a gift card to one of my favorite places to shop. He told me when he left happy birthday again.

the very next day H was not his usual self. He was SOOOO grouchy and hateful! Almost like he was in the very beginning but not quite so bad, still bad. Hasn't been like that in months. Dunno what that means???? the past few days since, he hasn't been in the best of moods--not that he has been in the best of moods since he left 6 months ago, but he is fairly decent most days---I don't get it? everyone says this is a good thing. He is dealing with inner demons when he is grouchy. Maybe things are going down hill for him and OW??? SOMETHING is going on. He hasn't stopped his visits with us, he has increased the length of time and is buying us supper and watching movies with us--so i am leaning towards things with the OW not going so smoothly??? Hope so anyway! my patience very thin these days!

I did ask him the other night if he wanted this M again. His response..."i dunno?" always the same. But his attitude towards me is different. More lovingly, not intimate lovingly but more so caring towards my feelings i guess--even though he answers the i don't know--which leaves me feeling like a piece of crap! Like a pair of shoes...do i want to wear these or these? Hmmm...i'll wear these a couple of hours...then switch to the other pair. Yep i am a pair of shoes! ( i do pick shoes as they are the other loves of my life!)

oh well anyway...he knows i am running on fumes! He knows and i did peek in his truck yesterday...and guess what i saw...the contract i had made up and gave him almost 2 months ago, folded up beside his seat. I asked him about it (long story...thought it was from OW...he laughed and pulled it out...it was me...anyway very long story, but ended well...) he showed it to me...i figured he had just thrown it away...WRONG!!! it was there beside him. He had kept it...this is good right? He handed it to me (to prove what it was to me) and MADE me give it back to him...folded it back and placed it right back in his truck where it was...GUYS...what is up with that??? am i being tooo hopeful in thinking that is a good sign?

He just seems so sad these days too. I am thinking God is really working hard on him...and this A is getting the best of him...Hope so!

so CJ--hope things are going well...did you go with your W to her sisters? i just caught up some more on your thread..and DANG!! i thought my sitch was bad...I really am praying for you guys! I hope things turn around for you soon! hope the music scene is well also...

keith urban...he's hot! I am the biggest Matchbox 20 fan and my H and i always had this deal if Rob Thomas ever showed up at the back door...i was allowed to just GO...he wouldn't stand in my way...his deal was if Faith Hill showed up...trust me...OW is NOOOO Faith... but i am still waiting for Rob...yes..i do know he is married...but a girl can dream right!! HA!!!

hope your weekend went well for you!..hey we got snow...again...it's gone now but it lasted for a couple of hours anyway!

MSA...hope your okay...

Later guys!

Jaysmom

Yup, doing well... just keeping busy. Haven't been posting as much / reading as much lately...

I think it's definitely a good sign that your H keeps the "terms" in his truck. Wonder what he's waiting for?

No word ever from OWH? Does your best friend have any info on whether he tell his friend things with OW are over?

MSA

Hi JM,

How are you doing? Hope things are well.

I was wondering, what are the things that you put in your contract? I was considering if this might be a good thing for me to do. I don't know... I'll check your earlier posts, praying that he starts to take it seriously.

I really starting to identify with how you are feeling, helpless, used up, used. It is so hard, I wouldn't wish this on anyone, I hope your OK.

Yeah I know what you mean about losing feelings, it is just so hard to keep respect for someone who is willing to deceive and hurt someone who they took vows with, vows to cherish, and stand by each other... why can't vows transcend love when the times are tough, why don't people put others first when they aren't sure how they feel?

I just don't understand...

Take care, give Jay a non-orange hug...

Later, CJ

CJ-

You seem really down today, i was catching up with your threads on GQ and i hope YOU are hanging in there too!

You know maybe a contract would be good for your W. Its really funny MSA mentioned it to me EARLY on...and i remember when i read it thinking...wow i really wish my H was to that point but i knew he wasn't--still i needed to get it ready for the EXACT time to hand it over!

So i sat in the bed one night piece of paper in hand and let it all out. I didn't do it for several weeks after MSA posted. When things started getting "better" (if you can call it better ---ever---when OW is still around). Anyway we must've had a decent evening or something-wrote it before i exposed to OWH. Gave it to him the night i exposed.

Terms went something like this--and i will keep it brief but i hope it will be useful to you (and yes...i drew it up somewhat like a contract -sure did- didn't give him anything sappy or lovey--nope---down right to the point---it's kinda long but i will only leave out what i think wouldn't apply to your sitch!

NC---no if's, and's or but's about it--none what-so-ever, OVER MEANS OVER--final, no friendship---OVER PERIOD!!

counseling--you must agree to some form of counseling, together eventually, individual, whatever...can be our pastor, can be anyone---HAS to be done. We must get to the bottom of the addiction, depression, etc. Until we do we stay in it.

Church-was always important to us in past, needs to be again. must be a priority. I want Jay raised in church, he needs Godly, christian parents that gave their all in teaching and training up their son for God.

Honesty-- (this was 2nd on my list) simply stated. You must be honest about anything and everything. Our M cannot exist without it.

POJA--(he didn't know this one--that's when he took SAA book)

there were a few others--like changing his route, apologies to me me and Jay, and other family members/friends ---some may disagree with me here, but he never confessed anything about the first A. He even lied about it to his mom this go around--of course making me look like the horrible person. He needs to admit his wrong--not to the whole world just those he has hurt, plus i think it will help him to be a better person.

and lastly-- A promise to me and Jay that this will never, ever happen again. A heart felt honest PROMISE. One that we know is real, true. I told him God would show me if it was. I told him--it wasn't okay that it happened but it was forgiven. I said, it will never be okay, i will not do this 3, 4, 5 more times ---not fair to me---not fair to Jacob and i would NEVER do it again, but it was forgiven and we could move forward and fix it.

ended by this---These are MY terms, you can accept or decline--it's up to you. If you want to come home--you must agree. I love you, C.

Don't know if it would help--but there it is in a nutshell.

I guess i am doing okay. But i SO know where you are. Reading your post i can totally feel you! i am getting to the point that i just KNOW i love him. i don't know that i feel it much anymore. hard to feel love for someone that has just ran you over a million times by a bus. Nothing in return. and some days the need for affection is soooo strong...you just need them so badly to hold you, love you...but it isn't there. and then he comes down and i just keep giving to him over and over, and he leaves and i just hit my knees...tears, anger...everything comes out.

He knows i am running low. He can really sense it. He still comes daily...seems more interested in me...and how i am doing...but the world still revolves around him. I have asked him several times if he loved OW...he always says the same...NO, or Who?, or "your crazy". but then again...he isn't going to tell me he loves someone, if he can't even admit to the someone. i did say to him...you had to think you loved her (yes i used past tense loved...) why else would you sacrifice your family...your little boy...he never responds.

CJ...this is the hardest thing i 've ever had to do my whole life and i know it is for you too! Hang in there...if i think of anything else that might be helpful i'll post it later...just hanging on here alot today...not much work to do!

If you are like me...it's the just needing to seperate our S's from the OP that drives me crazy! I feel like I should be able to do that but i just don't know how...

check with you in a bit!

JM

Hey thanks,

I guess I am down today, thanks for writing...it helps alot...

Just knowing that the EA is full force is heartbreaking, I thought it might be fizzling out. From what I can tell, OM is using my W's pain from dealing with me, to push her in an independent direction, and he is trying to be her salvation, wheeling her all the way.

Not so much the exact words they are saying is hurting, rather the big picture concept of what is happening, and what my wife does NOT seem to understand, she doesn't get it...that he wants her, and he'll walk over me and the kids and my W to get it. And he might even be doing it without realizing it, his self-righteous do-gooder attitude has the not-so-subconsious side benefit of getting him what he wants.

I need to make some big moves soon, W doesn't know what to do and I don't think she has many plans, she's not a go-getter. She'll wait until I leave or someone rescues her, for now...

Gonna contact his Mom tonight, what do I have to lose? What do you think?

I gotta gather more info first, think about this contract, gotta figure out how to get proof, and decide if exposure will help or not. Unlike your H, my W seems she'd rather be gone, I don't see her coming to visit us if I had custody of the kids...

So for now the usual Plan A, gonna try to talk to her more, get her to commit to time, plan for our conversations...then hopefully go talk to a priest/marriage coach... she agreed to this yesterday morning, but only out of frustration with me (even mentioned the MB course). I don't want to force her but I would like someone else talking to her about her problems rather than the OM...

sheesh, I hope this ends for you soon, sounds like you work in a hospital? (Sorry, I don't remember everything, although I've read all yer stuff)

What a great place to be! I mean 2mths from now, I'll likely be in a hospital. HAHA! How convenient for you! I can only imagine what 6mths of this must be like!

Why can't your H SEE????!!!!! I just don't get it, how could he not love you silly for all that you have done to support him and his family! Arrghh! Sorry I'm just frustrated today...WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH PEOPLE?!

I KNOW we don't deserve to be treated this way. I KNOW others close to us think we are nuts. But we want a FAMILY like you hear about, what others want, and surrounded in love. That's what God intended! We are fighting for our marriage, not these aliens. We are choosing that this dream, for now, is more important than ourselves. That sacrifice is worth it. And to have families that were different than our own.

My parents separated many times, and got together, and separated, initiated divorce, but never solved anything... then 30 years later... they finally seem to be doing OK, no A, but it did irrepairable damage to us kids, I just DON'T want that you know? But 30 years!!! no thanks...

So is this why we are so stubborn? Yes. We lived it. And we KNOW our children deserve better.

Sorry, I'm not so positive today, do read my post on pot and pans, I think it's kinda funny!

Take care!

CJ--i read about the pots and pans! HA! you better run for cover!!

I work for 4 eye docs. I need to be in a hospital myself. like you...gonna end up in one...told that to the ol'WH just the other day!!!

I have been thinking about your sitch and you really need to shake things up....i've been putting some thought into it...but i don't have time to post much now...time to leave, as soon as i get home i will check in on you and let you know what i come up with!

You got it right...we do want the best for our children and ourselves...and yes...why is it others think we should just "get over it" "move on" it just isn't that easy is it? This is our life!!! and yes...they think we are crazy!!

i'll check back this pm!!!

JM

PS...good luck around dinner time!!! watch your head!!!

Hey guys

i am just beside myself today. Just need to let off some steam right now to anyone that will listen. Last night i was having a hard time getting Jay to bed and when he finally said his prayers he rolled over in the bed and looked at me and said..."mommy, i didn't talk to that woman today...i didn't talk to her 'cause i wanted to make you happy" looking a bit puzzled at first not really knowing what he was talking about...i questioned a bit...and he said "that woman daddy see's sometimes...we saw her today...but i didn't talk to her"

Ugghhhhhh!!!! that POS!!! i CANNOT believe he has had the nerve to take my sweet baby boy around this wh*re!!!! HOW dare him!!! i told him from the day he left and walked away from us...spending NO time with his son at that time...never have him around her! Of course i got the "who" crap i get daily for 6 months.

anyway...i called his sorry butt up and let him have it. I really just don't care if he drops off the face of the earth right now. screw plan A/B, screw everything.

whew...thats better. sorry i am just completely p*ssed! He had the nerve to say that my son lied. Yep...you heard me right..."well that just isn't true...Jacob just made it up" Uh huh...cause 4 year olds generally do that sort of thing...make up OW. Jay said "daddy left me sitting in the truck and got in her car" (they were parked in a parking lot) and then jay said "he thought i was still asleep but i wasn't...then daddy got out and put his hood up...) Great cover John, then your son can't see the nasty sh*t your doing with this married woman.

HOW DOES HE SLEEP AT NIGHT????? saying that his son lied? how can he function in this world doing this crap? How does he not just get struck down by God for this?

anyway...for the record...Jay did not lie...when i asked the color of OW car...you guessed it he nailed him right on the money. My son is no typical 4 year old...he is a smart cookie and he wouldn't lie.

So i call H. get him out of bed. tell him i am p*ssed and give him the low down on what his son has told on him...after his "jay is lying" buisness...i just hang up on him. few later...phone rings...yep he calls having the nerve to say "are you finished?" i just hang up again...and yes...a few later...he calls back "are you done now?" NOT hardly...and 59 mins later...45 of them pretty much me going on non-stop. Now don't get me wrong...i know i sound mad tonight, but i wasn't mean at all...but i read him his rights.

i told him...he had to end it TODAY! i told him again how much i loved him..but firm not sappy. I told him alot, ALOT of things. He sat there and listened not saying a word.

so today..he calls me at work...hasn't done that since about 2 weeks after he left. why? pride. but today..he called...my guess...to see how i was gonna feel today.

When Jay and i got home...H was already down here at the house...playing Playstation. I asked him...did you end it today...."end what?" OMG!! is my life for real? I think, no wait a minute...I know NOW i am crazy!!!

BIG problem is i just have to suck it up...for Jays sake. Tomorrow is his big birthday...this Sunday...his big party. tomorrow H and I are taking him to movie and eat, then back home for gifts and cake with just us. Its what we've done since his first birthday...we make sure HIS day is with us..all day, then we have party with friends and family.

i just don't get it!?!? He don't want to lose OW, but don't want to lose me. what gives? What is the hold this woman has on him? says he doesn't love her...but then again..."who?" but if he thinks he loves her...wouldn't he be happy all the time and NOT spending time with me? so what is it? what...what...what....?????

Thanks guys for letting me vent. Feels much better.

i know that God loves me and my family more than i do. Romans 8:28 is what i hang on to daily. Something good will come out of this, eventually. Thank goodness for a God who loves me even in my ranting!

4 years ago today i was lying in the hospital, begging for someone...anyone...to "get this baby out of me!!!!! don't care how you do it...get him out" My H holding my hand, telling me how much he loved me, how proud he was, how happy he was (even though i went into labor at the funeral home, H father died 4 years ago today...and while making arrangments for his funeral...my water broke...)in the middle of my H's sorrow...he found so much joy and love. He was so strong and so good to me. No one has ever loved me so much. Oh how i miss him.

And yes...this is just a piece of my entertaining, interesting life...

Inspiring CJ??? i wouldn't say that. But soapish...yep...!!!

so CJ....You hanging in there? Have you tried just distancing yourself from your W? i mean i know your gone alot but maybe she takes your doing things to help out around the house, etc...as being pushy or trying too hard...i can't find the word i want...anyway like i have any room to give advice...but make her work for you...know what i am saying? i don't know...just a thought. didn't see you here today! Hope you still have your head!

thanks again for hearing me!

later guys!
JM

Oh...I'm still here...wuz looking for you today, but I had no time to post.

It's the middle of the night, I just went here for some hope...hope that someone's situation was better than mine, but...

This post just made me cry...WHY DO PEOPLE MESS WITH KIDS AND THE PEOPLE THEY SWORE TO LOVE????????!!!!!!

I'm sorry, this just makes me furious...why? what for?

I'm SOSOSOSOSOSOSOSO sorry for you, of course Jay isn't lying, he doesn't understand enough to have the proper motivation...he has no reason to lie, even though he knows enough to not want to talk to this sl*t!!!!!!!!

Why does Jay have to be so close to it? Where the he\\ is your real H residing? On Haley's comet? Even alien's know not to go there!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, Oh, I'm so sorry I mean no disrespect... I just... don't get it. I'm not insulting your H I hope, because someone else is trapped in his body right now...

Sorry so emotional myself, just had some terrible news myself... I gotta go and try to get some sleep, maybe I'll get into it tomorrow...

I understand why you lost it on him, dunno how much you yelled, maybe none, Plan A isn't doing a crap for me either right now, everything good I say gets twisted into a lie or something that hurts my marriage...I don't know what to do.

I ... juST...DON'T .... KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (My William Shatner impression in text form!)

Take care, I wish you happiness, I wish this would end for you.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JAY!!!!!!!!!!! He's likely to remember this one for a while, try to do something he'll remember forever!

Please take of you and yours...

MSA...if your lurking, hello!

CJ

CJ---so needed your post!! thanks!!! and trust me, your showing NO disrespect for my H....it's encouraging to hear you say that...!

Today my darlin' is 4!!! We had a decent day. considering. H penciled us in for the afternoon, you know we come after the visit with Mrs. Hus5y! today he could've taken the day off...of course he didn't....and today is his shortest work day of the week....but funny how it turned out to be longest! I was off today, and he had planned on the movie,etc with us...so had to get his time in with her somehow!!!

My blood is boiling! My little bro just called (he's about a foot taller than me...but only 20...so he is still my little) and i was telling him about the other day...he said sis...he is just psycho! my H and my brother were just like brothers. My lil bro and i have always been VERY close...he was like my child sort of...i was 13 when he was born and i kept him all the time...after my H and i got married he stayed every single weekend with us! so this is extremely hard for him. He is really fighting hard not to hurt my H.

so many people have lost respect for him...why wouldn't they...it just keeps going on and on and on....

oh well. anyway...Jays birthday went okay i guess. When Jay blew his candles out he wished for his daddy to come home. Yep...sure did. standing right there in the kitchen chair hanging over the bar..."i wish my daddy would come home soon" did i mention...he is 4. 4! 4! my little 4 year old...wished what a grown up would...not a new bike, playhouse,game...no he had a real wish. His daddy stood there and acted normal...blew around a bit. i just walked away...tears in my eyes. stupid H changes the subject about some toy Jake got...

uggghhhhhhh!!! tell me...are all men this way? I know your not CJ...your in my shoes. See there are decent men around...how is it the decent women end up with the crap men and vice versa? Uggghhhh again. I'm huffing and puffing tonight.

So anyway...CJ hows it going? i hope you post some on yourself...hope things are some better for you...you were up late i see...

MSA..hope your well! take care of you!

CJ i'll check in on you tomorrow...take care!! Remember...as you have told me before...we are in the right...they are in the wrong...I believe God will bring us out of this mess soon...we won't suffer forever! Keep praying...it's the only tool!

gonna go love on my sweetheart and get his hyped up self in the bed! Loves the icing not so much the cake...HA!

Jaysmom

I have read your thread for months - you do need to do something to shake him up, probably not overtly, that doesn't seem to be your style, (as in going away). You really need to do the 180. It works and the best thing is that it makes you seem as indepentdent and attractive to them as you were when they met you.

If he is being angry now and then for no reason, he is beginning to have disagreements with OW. So you taking care of you and appearing to become independent of him emotionally and having growing self esteem is going to bother him and she will sense it.

I have been working on my marrriage for 3 1/2 years - I know what it is to wait. Following the 180 and working with His Needs Her Needs has literally saved my life and drawn him back toward me over and over.

Linda

I know i do...but any suggestions on how and what. I've said to my friends all along...i don't think leaving will do it, but i feel so in the dark about how to do the 180..in my sitch ....any suggestions on how to start/where to start????

for starters...He is ALWAYS around...how do i handle this? How do i do this without seeming like i don't WANt him around or the opposite letting him just run over me and get his way, without hurting my son in the process? he is hurt enough over my stupid H and his actions without me adding to it. My son wants him home...i want him home...i think my H wants to be home sometimes...but mostly just wants it the way it is.

I guess i just don't know how to do a 180 when it's not as if we are seperated. Really we are not. He is there every evening...he just doesn't sleep there. he just doesn't have to deal with the same responsibilites as H and dad. he can have his OW during the day and family time in the evening...He just doesn't seem to have any intimate feelings towards me at all...AT ALL! not since Christmas Eve. He just seems to want nothing from me but conversation.

He hates when i get upset or angry...and he tries to fix it if he makes me that way...so what gives?

any suggestions?

Hi JM!

Hmmm, I'm not sure what the 180 is exactly, I was mentioning it b4, but I'm not schooled in it...

Looks like there's some info over at www.divorcebusting.com. Maybe you know all about it... seems to me the 180 is done when they ARE around, to show that you don't give a sh*t anymore...I'll check it out!

It is so obvious about your H's cake-eating...I wish he'd stop, but it gives me hope that he is not willing to give you up either... hang in there. I'd almost prefer this, I think my W would rather just leave...

I still think you've got a chance.

Yes, your H needs a jolt. Something scary, I don't know what... let's brainstorm... could you get more survellience done and do a second exposure? Would he care?

I'm just tired of my sitch, I was up late, couldn't sleep, b/c I found out about some lies OM is telling my W... details on my thread...sorry so long.

My W needs a jolt also. She is comfortable in our sitch as long as I don't bother her. Yeah, you're right, sometimes I put on too much pressure. I'm pretty good though. But I'm starting to believe that I might be better off without this. My FIRST choice is keeping my family together, however, but I'm starting hate this too much. But I know she WANTS me to give up, so...

She needs a serious dose of reality. She's in a Catholic family and I'm formulating a plan. Soon (tonight?) I will see if I can get her to admit she is contacting OM. If so, i will ask if she would consider a NC letter. I'm doubting it.

I think I'll order SAA this weekend, I bought HNHN at the bookstore, but they didn't have SAA...gotta really get learning. I can't really apply HNHN with this darn EA going on, y'know?!

I may even contact him as well. Show him pictures of my kids and ask him to stop. Not talking to him hasn't worked AT ALL. It has ONLY alienated him against me. He used to largely support my marriage (yeah, even in his screwed up ways...) but now he is content running me into the ground. But he is very mallible, might be able to get him understanding me again... I've got nothing to lose, THIS certainly isn't working. I afraid if I see him, I may KILL him! haha!

One last chance for each of them, then exposure. I've had ENOUGH!! Why can the world think she's just unhappy with a cheating husband and out of love, a dose of reality is in order. I realize it may be the beginning of the end, but I can't see this going anywhere like this... maybe this will surround her with people that force her to see that what she is doing is wrong. She's SO foggy right now that ANY of my attempts of reconciliation are totally useless...

Sorry, little bit of a threadjack here...prayers to you, I really hope I can help you brainstorm your course of action.

Anyway hope your OK, hope you like to play with Jay's new toys, I mean I get to play with Polly Pockets and Dora the explorer. Maybe you get to play with Stars Wars and Sponge Bob?

We gotta get into action somehow... I'll try to help...

Cheers?

Here's a post by Linda describing the 180... it just might work for you, especially since your H seems to need your involvement...interesting...sounds kinda tough, like a Plan A on steriods... maybe this will be something to consider for me after exposure... hmmm, gotta think about it.

But it seems tailor made for you! I think it would have your H chasing you around the house in no time!

Whaddaya think?


The 180 helps you do a 180 turn around to the way you were when your spouse met you and wanted you - also it gives you a raised self esteem which makes you more
in control of how you react, instead of being stuck in a pattern of negative respomses and feelings. First you start with these rules, then you may add some of your own,
to change other responses you have if there are other behaviours your spouse plays on that put you down - whether they do it consciously or unconsciously. So go
ahead and do as many as you can for as long as you can - if you don't need them at some point, you can take a break but if things get bad again - get back on the 180
horse and ride like the wind - LOL

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

Divorcebusting.com

Go to the site and join the forum for more help and support. This is the beginning list.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow spouse around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from their family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse spouse_s whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if your spouse notices and, more important, realize what they will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear from them and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.

well i read the list and i know that i don't do ALL of those things but i do ALOT of them and have been for a while. I know i talk to much to him but honestly NO one else is...i guess i should stop that but i don't beg or plead or anything.

I have to call him some of the time because we have a child. He is here with me everyday and if i stay in the bedroom he comes in there saying..."why are you mad, grumpy, etc." I don't act mad or anything i have been trying to pull that stuff above off but it seems with my H he takes it the wrong way. Maybe it is working and that is his way of responding to it.

see here is another thing. a week before my H left he talked to me about a few things....he was still being loving at the time...not giving me at that point any reason to believe OW...maybe a hint but nothing like a couple of days after this conversation. He said to me...You have all your friends you do things with...girls from work, your best friend, etc...You go out by YOURSELF shopping and do things just yourself...I never do any of that. I have no friends. I never go anywhere. Not even alone."

i said to him "john...first of all...YOU hate to shop. ALWAYS have...you like to joke to people we run into at the mall etc...about how i have run you to every place i could find...and that is a shock that you would want to ...but okay...go ahead and do it...i don't mind. secondly...about the friend thing...i didn't think you minded me going sometimes..." he responded as, i have never minded you doing any of those things...it's not that ...maybe i would like to...

i then said...well then go ahead...call one of your friends and do something. He then said...i don't have any.

He was right. He doesn't. He didn't at that time. He distanced himself from all of his close friends and now he doesn't have any. NONE. seriously. JUST OW. she became the "friend he didn't have" and also the "lover" that's what she wanted and she was filling his head full of crap about me...to push him away...(on top of our struggles...it was enough to make him leave).

so what i am getting at is..i have always been rather independent. Our entire M. I have always had friends and loved doing things on my own. HE on the other hand has been the clingy one to me. He never did anything with anyone the past 2-3 years but with me. Maybe at a time or two. so i feel he became sort of jealous of me...resentful of me...Know what i am saying? Does it sound crazy???????? Probably! maybe i am crazy. I probably look too deeply into things.

i know people on here say most A's are all the same. Yep i agree to an extent. Noone's can be exact. My sitch has alot of deep issues. It has never been simple, cut to this. NOTHING has worked for me. Exposure. trying to act as though things are over...trying to be loving...heavens i think at times even my prayers!

I just don't know. Honestly. I don't understand the hold this OW has on him. I wish he just thought he was totally head over heels in love. that would make it easier. CRAZY as it sounds. But my heart just isn't telling me that! I just don't know. I feel like if he thought he loved her...he would let me go...regardless...just let me go...but he can't for what-ever the reason. the other day when he took Jay and met OW...he knew the risk...Jay was right there, but he just HAD to see her for the 5 mins or so he could....but yet...he is here every evening...isn't sneaking out to call...nothing...for 2-3 hours or so...on the weekends sometimes longer. So what is it????? Just the thrill of the secrecy????

I could expose again but OWH really has me pissed off right now! I know i shouldn't be that way...you guys know she said..."oh honey...i am so sorry...NOTHING happened THAT way between us...he and his wife have been having trouble and i was just being a friend to him...and it went a little too far" OWH buys the story..case closed. then when i call him 2 weeks later to tell him my H is sitting in her parking lot caught by my best friend...he doesn't want to believe me cause she's made me out to be some horrid crazy person.

Ughh. will this soap opera life of mine ever be better? I want to hold on to Romans 8:28! I know God is an awesome God and i love and praise him for loving me and carrying me...but i am SOOOO getting impatient for something to happen! i really wish these days they would get caught...and get caught GOOD!!!! even visualize a black eye or two on my H coming in one day! of course i could give those myself...but i choose to stay ladylike for now!!!

for now i said.

guys...you don't know how much i appreciate your words...these few days have been tough. Not a sad kinda tough...just a "i'm spent" kinda tough!

Please keep the posts up as i'm gonna need em to get thru this BIG HONKIN' birthday bash for my son! funny thing is H has only a couple of family members coming..counting MIL. You know he is dreading it!

any suggestions on how i should be around him this weekend???


thanks guys! take care!

JM

Hi! Try to keep up with your post. Just wanted to see if you have read the book by James Dobson on Tough Love and also When the one you love wants to Leave by Donald harvey? i have just recently read those and they were both really good books for me. Forgive me if they are already mentioned in your post I didn't look back through.

Follow the list to the letter - be upbeat as if something good but private has happened, if you normally start conversations, don't. If you usually soak up what he says, don't go to the other room or read a book, I pretend to and keep saying - sorry, did you say something. If he makes a fuss I apologise and say, I didn't mean to ignore you, it's just I have a lot of private stuff to think of now, and then hum a happy tune to myself ...get it

Just wanted to send a quick note and ask for prayers! Jays party is tomorrow afternoon ( oh wait it is tomorrow...) and today my H has been a real pill!

i haven't been around him at all except for about 15 mins. He promised last night to be here to watch Jay so i could run out and finish the party stuff. At 5pm...he still wasn't home. I left jay with MIL and went on out. He finally shows around 6ish. so MIL said. He has just been awful the past few days. what is it? My best friend thinks it's guilt due to this week being Jake's birthday and H always being so excited and the main party planner. she says...it's got to be bothering him because he knows how much he enjoyed his big party.

i didn't think about that. He hasn't done ANYTHING to help with it except pick up a balloon or 2. he is buying the pizza that's it. I have paid for everything else and done everything else. My MIL and my parents pitch in some but mainly me.

i just don't get it guys...seems fine for several days and acts like he enjoys my company like he is trying to come home...then we go 50 steps backward again. He starts smarting off to me, stays out later, is short with jay, short with me...generally just pissy about everything. Is that a good sign or a bad sign???

tonight i hardly spoke to him cause i was so ill about him putting things off that needed to be done. I cannot count on him for anything.

Eventually won't this A just explode into the light of day? eventually won't OWH get a clue? eventually won't they finally get busted by someone other than me...like her kids or family members, co-workers, church member...her kids are old...21 and 16... they are shielded from this while my baby boy gets drug into it without say so.

I did tell my H something from my childhood that really messed with me. My mom cheated on my dad, as i have said before. when i was between 5 or 7?? i remembered being asleep and getting woke up by mom giggling and talking..hearing another mans voice...and it not being my dad...i just pretended to be asleep because i heard them near the door and i looked over and saw this man's head peeking in the door (just looking in on me...nothing bad like...mom there like she was showing me off) it terrified me. i told my grandmother the next day.

i didn't know until then there was OM in my mom's life. I told my H..."i have asked you since the day you left...do not take jay around OW. You have no idea what you are doing to him. (after telling the above to him) i said you think it goes away...? your wrong...it stays with you your entire life. You never forget it...You keep Jay one day..one day a week and you can't go one day without seeing her...I am living, breathing proof...and you know it because you've lived it with me for 12 years...it will scar him and he won't forget"

he of course...silent but pissed. He commented that he had to go and ran off. coward.

guys...I'm ready to hand him over to her.

starting to just really not want to look at him, be around him, talk to him. really having to just make myself. starting to think...he will come around...but it will be too late when he does. I've fought hard for 6 months. starting to just shut down inside.

Pray for us! i'll let you know how the party goes...H is dreading it pretty dang bad!

Jaysmom

Jaysmom - I am not trying to threadjack or anything, but I have always kept up with your thread and I want to know if you and your H will both be at Jakes party?? Will there be people at the party who know what is going on between the 2 of you??

I am struggling with this b/c my dd is turning 1 in april and I want to throw a B/day party, but feel it would be weird for me to throw one with WH, since most of our friends know our sitch...

Just searching for sage advice from someone going trough the same thing..

Thanks - and I am so sorry about how truly difficult this all is!!! Feel free to email the below address since this is not in any way meant to thread jack!!!!

Alison

Hi Alison. Made it thru the party just fine. Held MY head high, mingled around...my family was great. His family eehh. hardly spoke to me...like i'm the one who's foolin'around. Anyway...to you Alison...i don't know your sitch...but understand this about mine.

My H and i get along just fine. If i didn't mention anything about OW and his A...life would be just grand and glorious for him. He spends every evening with us in his little denial world. He wants his family, but he wants his OW too. You see...he just doesn't live with us and during the day he likes to fool around with OW in his fantasy life. So...we go on most days...laugh, get along..have no problems...he fixes things...checks on us...buys things at times. Just like we did except there is the OW between him and me.

so...last night i had just about enough. My mother told him she loved him and hugged him before she left. She didn't even tell me good-bye...Understand my Mother NEVER does these kind of things. H is the one who told me she did. My dad and rest of my fam and friends (minus a couple) all spoke to him and made him feel comfortable. His family avoided me. Freaks. he hid behind his mom's coat tail. she shielded him just in case.

i'm pissed about the family thing. Proud of mine...he is doing OW and my family came in and were so good. his acted like i made him go to her. Uggghhhh...

just needed to vent that.

guys gotta go ...i'll post more in a bit.

gotta do something today...cause i cannot live this way any longer.

gotta get to work now.

JM

Jaysmom,
I hope you do decide that you WON'T live this way any longer. It will shake him out of his fog, I'm pretty sure. But even if it doesn't, is this a life?

You are at the point I was at when I went to a lawyer & filed for divorce.

I don't know if 180 is enough for your H, as long as he gets to sit on the fence eating his cake, I really don't think he cares how you treat him or act...?

I fear he needs the BIG wake up gong.

Pray about it.


MSA

Hi JM,

Yeah, that sure is frustrating, NOT YOUR FAULT!!!

Take heart, be strong, you are doing your best, yes I think something has to happen...

I wish I knew what it was...

Gotta go and work, I'll check back later!

cya! CJ

hey guys! yep MSA i agree with you. 180 i've done alot of...not phasing him. he is killing me and i am agreeing also with...so what if something major doesn't work...either it makes him realize his stupidness soon...or he will continue on and when he does eventually realize it...i will be long gone.

either way...i can't handle this. it's emotional and mental abuse. last night was something else. spoke to him on the phone for a while after he left and he was just awful. don't have time to get into it...even if i wanted don't know if i would. Basically said Jay lied about the OW the other day...yep this time...using "he is just a child...they make up sh*t" I said YES HE IS A CHILD MY POINT EXACTLY....he has no reason to lie, he is innocent and doesn't know how to MAKE UP OW and MAKE UP the EXACT color of her car...

this went on and before it was over he was blaming my "ATTITUDE" on being around my best friend that she "manipulates" me into thinking things/doing/saying things i shouldn't...like i can't think for myself. Like the past 6 months haven't been hel[ on me!!!!

whew...the blood is boilin' guys! anyway...i can't live this way so who cares at this point...if he doesn't get off the fence on my side...let him have her. If he wants her 2nds (cause he is a fool if he thinks she isn't sleeping with her H ...) then let him have her. if 5 mins of here and there and living as her "pet" then fine...that is what he deserves. I on the other hand am fabulous and and any man who catches me and Jay at this point will be lucky and blessed...and God will see to it so will I.

Just wish i knew what to do at this point. I can't stand the sight of him.

keep praying for me...gotta go work myself.

hope to get on later...i think H did something to my computer yesterday????? it connects to the internet but "page cannot be displayed" keeps coming up, you can't search anything....he ran ad-aware yesterday is the only thing he claims to have done. any suggestions???? i don't think he did it on purpose...but who knows he is probably keeping up with me here....???

Later! Jaysmom

Adware should have a registry back up function, so go find it and restore the registry, also when you delete some adware, tracking adware, then the page it belongs to won't work.


Well if you are all nicey nicey to him when he comes round you are not doing the 180. On the 180 you are pleasant and polite but as you would be to a stranger, not an intimate. I would just leave him in the room with Jay and then go about my busines. NO phone calls of any kind, to him unless it is a medical emergency unless he calls and then just tell him a bunch of happy happy good stuff you are doing and be the first to say goodbye. Do not mention OW, if you are pleasant but distant he will not be getting his "fix" from you and will be sh**y with her. She will not be enough and will not like it, and they will begin to get mad at each other.

You need to be removed and not available to him in any way other than if he was a stranger you have no past with, and do not intend to get involved with.

Set your boundaries and keep them in place. Read over the 180 list again and see which ones you are not doing or could adapt so you could use them. Don't ever be unpleasant or put down, act as if the OW is the last thing you are worried about as you are too busy having a pleasant life when he is gone.

I would stray from the list and DH would stray from me. You have to make him see the old you, when he first met you, happy confident and "NOT HIS"

Good Luck

well...computer is working...H must've came down here today and fixed it. He claims no but...the toliet seat was up when i got home...wasn't me.

good grief. why lie about everything? thinkin' its a sickness for him now. wondering does he know the truth?

anyway...at least he fixed it and i can get on here for a bit.

Alison...as far as our party went yesterday...it went pretty much like the past 3. You see...my H is still so much in denial he really thinks he isn't cheating! HA! Of course everyone there knows our sitch but no one said anything. His grandmother and one cousin who was there...don't know anything...and when they left...they still don't know. I don't know about things with you...but i believe you should still go on with the party. so what if everyone knows...are you worried your H won't come? that may be the case...but still...this is your baby...I personally would include him...if it were me...and if he doesn't show...that's his decision...he is the one missing out. If your worried other people/family/friends won't come because he would be there. do as i did. Phone the problem ones...(like my mom, friends that i thought might lose their cool when they saw him) and asked them to please not say anything. I told them (well just mom) this is about Jay and not John. I told her...he is so out of God's will right now..that nothing would continue to keep him further out of his will than someone being smart or ugly with him. (this would be why she hardly spoke to me and didn't tell me good bye...but hey my mom is another story on another website somewhere! ha!) anyway...good luck to you...and enjoy your party! no matter what...its about that sweet baby and how God blessed you with her!

I really did enjoy the party. My best friend was a blast! all my other friends too. We had a PEEYATA (as jakey would say) and of course had a stick to hit it. those kids banged the heck out of it. H wouldn't hold it up though. think he was afraid. My best friend had the stick some. she just kept cracking me up. I just enjoyed myself and my son.

thanks guys for the advice! i do appreciate it and am trying my best! it's getting easier to as i go along because i just don't want to be treated this way!

CJ-getting worried bout cha! Haven't seen any new posts...how are things going?

see you guys tomorrow! As Jay would say "time for bed-night mommy"

Jaysmom

Hi JM,

How are you?

I've been around, all this is just so much work that it is hard for me to fine time to post as often as I'd like, plus my normal schedule is pretty crazy, 2 jobs, family, too much!

Sorry to hear you're sitch isn't improving, I wish i knew what to say, it's unfair, and from my experience, yes they lie all the time, and they don't seem to realize what is wrong or that it is an untruth. It helps me to think that they have a mental illness. I just don't know any other way to rationalize it.

I think I'm reading you. In a way, this is starting to get easier b/c I'm starting to detach. This is abuse, and we shouldn't have to do this forever...

Sorry, I 'm not so encouraging today, I don't want you to give up... I think that you have something, your H seems to be unable to fully detach from you. If you can figure out how to take that away, you really might have a shot. I know you're being as strong as you can, I admire you so much for it...

My sitch is a little different, my W just hates my guts. Unfairly I might add. It is so frustrating, she is only living with me for financial reasons. I giving a last go here but I'm ready to pull the plug (Plan B) if NC doesn't start and she does not start working working on our marriage. The psychological abuse is too much, and this is the most messed up social sitch I've ever seen, I couldn't have imagined all this and written a book if I tried...

So I'm thinking about a few more moves, backing off, detaching, asking her out on dates, Plan A, info gather, get everything out of the house that shouldn't be there, talk to a lawyer, and try to protect my kids the best way I can.

I want to save my family, but this is starting to turn into war, I don't want to hate my W so much that I can't get along with her after a D.

Sorry to threadjack, i'm just at the end of my rope...I hoping God shows me something soon that helps me go on...

I really hope you're OK, hope Jay had fun at the B'Day party, I'm glad to hear that he made the "come home Daddy" comment when blowing out his candles. God is working. Bless your son, what a SMART and SENSITIVE kid. You are so lucky!

I'll check in with you soon, gotta go!

CJ

CJ--i'm good today..thanks for asking. Getting better everyday as a matter of fact.

I've been thinking about your sitch...i honestly do not believe your W hates your guts. She is so much like my H. Seriously. I have told/asked my H several times you hate me/why do you hate me????? he always tells me he doesn't and never has. I think they wish that they could hate us. They sit there thinking of every little wrong we've done so they can justify their wrong. but in the evening when they are lying there in bed...tossing and turning because God won't allow them to rest easy...they realize...they are the problem. they are wrong. But that is too hard for them to face so they just block it out. Or at least thats what i believe my H does.

then morning comes...and contact is made with OW and that sets the bar...for that day....

He told me, after his first episode, ( i like to think of it as an episode in our M...) that when he would go to bed at night he would lay in the bed and think i have to stop doing this..i will NOT do this tomorrow, i will end this (before it wasn't just OW...it was more of something else...nothing really bad ..but i am just not going there today...) i will stop doing what i am doing and go home to my W. He said...he would lay there and cry and promise that when the morning came he would straighten himself up and come home.

but then he said...when he would wake up the cycle started over...until he finally had enough. I finally just told him that i was leaving if he didn't come home. so one day about a week after me telling him...he came home. IT WAS HORRIBLE! that was it...he just came home. nothing said...until 5 months later when i found out about the OW. but that is a whole chapter i won't go into.

what i am getting at is...don't think your W hates you. She hates herself right now. She WANTS to think of every reason to but in the end...she knows ....really knows she doesn't. She feels bad when she is mean and hurtful to you. Heck i even got an apology yesterday from my WH. and it was for "i'm sorry i've been talking so hateful to you...i shouldn't" hey...that was pretty darn big for him don't cha think?

i don't think you should ask her out on dates. I think you should pull back like you said. Exist with one another. Heck like the 180 list i've been trying to do. and i know what all you other guys are saying...sister you should do what your telling CJ to do. I'M TRYING...I PROMISE! CJ your sitch and mine are alot alike. my difference...my H leaves at bedtime to go have a sleep-over at his moms. He is here most all the time. But i don't ask him to go places, i don't really ask anything of him...unless it has something to do with Jake.

try to just act un-interested in anything to do with her. You've already made it clear what you are willing to do and that you want the M. Now she must STOP contact with that icky OM!!! i dunno...just some thought.

Well...nothing new going on today. Just the same ol' same ol'. H was so much like his old self today though....it's nice to see that...makes me truely believe he does still exist.

hope everyones doing okay. REALLY nice weather here...suppose to be 60ish the next couple of days!!! so sorry CJ! If it makes you feel better...we are all sick because of it!!!!

gonna go watch Jay sing in his microphone...my child is the next American Idol! HA! he is singing Tim McGraw...wish you guys could hear him "she was killin' me in that mini shirt" yes...you read right...he sings mini shirt...He is just a blast!

later ! Jaysmom

Hi JM!

Geez, thanks for the encouraging remarks, I REALLY needed it! Thank you.

This crap is just SO hard. I have no control over it, and I can't handle people thinking I'm a bad person all the time. I've always been a people-pleaser, and I can't wrap my head around why W and OM should be mad at ME! I didn't do this, not my choice!

So yeah, I know you're right, so the 180 it is. I'm hoping it's not too hard, yeah i said i don't love my W anymore, but it's likely not true. But I'm SO frustrated with her that I'm losing my ability to care enough to reach to her, so I hope this makes the 180 easier.

How is this working for you? Do you find it makes your H want to implore your thoughts? W said she IS having a lot of trouble sleeping lately, that's why she was taking sleeping pills...does this signify the guilt? I guess we have to look for the subtle signs, hey? Look for the things that they think that they are hiding from us, the things that they can't, that they are hurting, that they are guilty, and that they aren't very proud of themselves right now, and they are depressed b/c of it.

Your words REALLY screwed my head back on straight. It helps so much to relate to people here that are going through this, my family can't understand why I stay, but I need to try...my Mom fought for her marriage for decades, there was no affair, but she was doing the wrong things, she is very knowledgable, but doesn't know really what advice she ought to give. My bandmate is very knowledgable, and is a pretty good advice giver, but even he is saying to get moving on, he did this also for 4mths.

So bless you. How do you keep this up?! Do you sometimes wonder what this all means? Do you believe everything happens for a reason? I like to think I do, but I can't see WHAT this is for. Maybe God knows this woman isn't good for me and He's trying to help...maybe God knows my W needs to grow and she needs something like this around her to mature, maybe she needs to be taught that I have always been here and I'm someone who can be tested and relied on, relied on for life...maybe God needed to teach me about emotional needs and how I need to be more aware of them and cherish my marriage ALL the time no matter HOW tough my work schedule gets...that my marriage needs to come before EVERYTHING: work, kids, money, my extended family, myself, and even my W. I've learned so much, please God, give me a chance now to apply it... thanks for the lesson, but when is school out?

More threadjacking...sorry, I hope I help you too, I hope that my words have gotten you through some of your days...it helps to know that I can do SOME good in this world, that just maybe someone listens to my words and takes comfort from what I have to say.

That is so inspiring, hearing what you just told me about your H, laying awake and crying, can I assume that you didn't know anything about this until afterwards? I hope that is what is keeping my wife up, that she knows, that I'm not lying all the time, that I'm a good person that she's hurting, to make herself feel better...

How long did it take for you and your H to talk about this after the "episode"? Did it help you feel closure? Could you feel his genuine remorse? What other hints do you gather to help make you know that your H still cares for you?

My W still does things for me, and still seems upset b/c she thinks that I have found/talking/seeing someone else. Why does she care? Heck, she's given me permission to go and sleep with other people! She told me this on D-Day! Really! I'm not buying it, so I take this as a sign that she still cares somewhat; even if she doesn't want me, why is it not OK for anyone else to have me? HMMMM?

thanks silverpool for the embellishment on the 180 technique, it's effective immediately, and I can also see the insulating benefits that it has for the BS.

Mini shirt! HA! I like them too! and skirts! anything mini really! Yer boy learns fast, just teach him not to start getting involved with girls until he reads and understands EVERYTHING on this site! And give him a test, and make him do the emotional needs questionaire and give it to all of his girlfriends b4 they are allowed to call him, interview all his girlfriends and make them complete the love busters questionaire, have them all tested for STD's, require a complete psychological evaluation, IQ test with a 120 minimum, EQ (emotional quotient)test, Myers-Briggs personality test, ask them what marriage means to them, give them shock therapy, house them in a rubber room with 14 bodybuilders and monitor their sexual behavior, interrogate all their friends and contacts for character references, and insist that they address you as "your majesty" or "your excellency". When you are satisfied with all of this, ask them over for dinner every day, and slip sedatives in their food so that they are too tired to do ANYTHING except for love your son. Oh, and fit them with flea collars... Jay doesn't want fleas, I mean, why would he?

Just a thought(s). Jay might wonder why he has girlfriends that are always too tired for anything, although amazed at how loyal and dependent they seem to be... and why they seem to have an unexplained fear of you! hahahahahahahahaa! ha!

Oh, I hope you are doing OK... I'll check in again soon!

CJ

Glad i could make you feel somewhat better! I so know what you mean about this crap! whew! And i thought i was the ONLY one who thought that everyone thought I was the problem. I am the bad guy. I caused this.

everyday i feel like i'm fighting a losing battle. I hope the 180 goes well for you. I don't know that it does any good for me. I've tried to explain my sitch to everyone best i could but its hard to pinpoint everything. Everyday he is here. If i go to the bedroom, stay to myself...only answer his ?'s....well frankly...i get the "whats wrong with you...why are you so grumpy?" I don't act angry or mad...but everything i do backfires on me...so why wouldn't the 180????

I promise you one thing...she isn't sleeping well because of the guilt...yes sir! Sin looks pretty and inviting at first but once you take a bite...its just sin. Nothing okay about it. God hates it. It isn't going so smoothly for her now!

so in answer to your ? how do i keep this up? God. plain and simple. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for God. for the first 2 or 3 months God lived for me. Drove my car, worked, took care of my son...lived completely for me. I stayed on my face in prayer constantly. Going to the bathroom at work several times a day just to pray. Praying as i walked down the hall....praying while the patient i was with was taking a thousand years to answer my ?s, praying every chance i could. if not for my faith in God...i wouldn't be alive. Not for a second trip down this hard road...with a little boy in tow. No way.

Yes i do wonder everyday what it means? i ? God everyday...as to why i am here AGAIN??? i get angry with God too and cry and scream and ask Him why didn't he end our M 6 years ago...before Jay. so i could save my son from going thru something i never wanted him to endure. Why i couldn't have moved on from that point and married someone else that wouldn't do this to Jay. But God's ways aren't always our ways...and his timing isn't our timing...I can tell you this...He wants your M more than you do, he loves your W, girls, and you more than anything...and yes there is a reason for it...we just may not know what it is for a long time...just remember and read...Romans 8:28..that holds me together everyday! Know that as long as we do as God would have us to...in the end...ALL things can work together for good!!!!

Yes it was afterwards when he told me about his lying in bed at night crying. I didn't know about the A when he left. He left just like this time...claiming this, that, and the other...all my fault. Went and stayed at his moms. We didn't speak for 1 week. I didn't know anything. Nothing. we had no cell back then...nothing for me to trace...i was just so young and stupid...he told me not to talk to him and i was so shocked and scared i wanted to save our M so i just did as he asked. he called me. he was gone 3 months. after about 1 month of his being mean and controlling...he started easing back to his old self some. EASING but still a billion miles away...i thought it was just the depression. He went to the Dr. got on ADs and then 2 weeks later came home. All was not well when he came home. He came on his terms. He didn't even tell me he was home to be home...i got "well...i'm staying tonight...but i don't know if i will tomorrow...lets just see how it goes" Yep...i was stupid huh? but i didn't know about OW. we got along most of the time..but there was a barrier. Things of course were not the same...and i just couldn't take it. I looked everywhere for anything to clue me to what was going on.

Long story short...every morning he left for work i heard him go behind the house...i would sneak to peek and see if i could find something...nothing. Drove me nuts...but i was able to keep my big mouth shut and keep hunting. I had a conference i had to go to in Hilton Head, SC with a couple of girls from work (this was at almost my breaking point...i was going to leave him...because i didn't know what had happened to my sweet H...he was different and i was so unhappy...) anyway...i left for about 4 days. He called me SEVERAL times while i was gone...this would have been normal...in the old days...but not for the new John he was. Anyway...

that weekend...was his breaking point. He realized he didn't want to be without me. He never said anything when i got home but he was acting like my H again...and did from then on. But i wasn't okay with it. there was still a barrier between us. he didn't want sex. i knew SOMETHING was up. i continued my snooping and 1 month after my trip...i found what the missing link was. In his golf bag...he had hidden pictures of him and then OW. Nothing in them bad. Just snap shots. Mostly of them individually. a couple of them with there heads together nothing..sick or sad to me. still it was sad to me.

anyway...i called my best friend told her...and then here comes H down the drive...i get myself together and go to the living room and sit. H of course didn't come right in..so i have to ask him to. i had the pics lying on the coffee table. He didn't notice at first..i just sat there. then i asked him ...who is that? he was stunned, shocked..at first and speechless. he had forgot to toss them...he didn't want to toss them here...but forgot about them. i just looked at him...frozen. he hit the floor. on his knees. Yes very remorseful. Told me he didn't want to lose me. told me he was done. He ended it...it was over with her. that it wasn't what it looked like to me (yeah i know they all say it) but the thing behind the house was his pot. She was his pot smoking buddy too. He admitted everything that day...later he confessed a few things he was afraid to at that point. The OW was a girl he worked with...and for the record they both got fired 2 weeks after i found out...not for that...but still God seperated them for good. H got much better job later (well i guess HuH??) want to know something else thats weird. About a month before my H left...i woke up in the middle of the night and felt like God was telling me to go look in his golf bag (things were bad about 2 months before he left) so i got up and looked...nothing. the day i found the pictures...i kept saying to myself...but there's nothing in here...i've looked before...but...God said look...and i did. Truth!

The pot was a killer for me too. Not my H. No Way!!! this is a good christian man. but like now...this all started when his depression became so severe. we were in a huge financial strain then and his dad was told he would not live another year if he didn't stop drinking. My H thought he could fix his dad...and he couldn't....that is what sent him over the edge....knowing his dad had basically killed himself and my H couldn't stop it. He hates the fact he suffers from the depression and other. so instead of facing it...he likes to search for his "feel good" elsewhere.

anyway...sorry this is so long. After that "episode" in our M. Our M became so much stronger. we became so much closer...and God blessed us so much. We grew from that "episode" and i was thankful because our M was so much better. When i say God blessed us afterwards...i'm not lying! H inherited SEVERAL thousands from an uncle he hardly knew...we lived on easy street for a couple of years. But got stupid. BOUGHT everything and anything and now we are SEVERAL thousand in the negative because of it. After we blew the money...yep we sure did...then we ran up credit card after card...to continue our lifestyle. Then the forclosure letters came and all the phone calls...too much for us...i became overly depressed...and so did H. sooo depressed at our stupidity! and here we are.

So sorry i've rambled today. i'm at home because the preschool called...Jay sick again. My darling H is off but so is OW and they are painting the town today. How nice...i lose a days pay AGAIN for their pleasure. Ughhh!
when is my day coming? Please tell me? i am just ready to run off with anybody who is willing to take me....St. Thomas would be nice!!! HA!

Are you kidding me about Jay...he will never date! the women are all over him now anyway. He's blonde, hazel eyes, and has a small dimple in his chin...i can't go anywhere without some chick telling me how cute he is...he is mine why wouldn't he be? HA!

its soooo warm today...to bad Jakey is sick...i have opened windows in the house its so hot! bet your toasty too huh CJ?

check on you later!

JM

I knew it.

I knew it.

I just KNEW it.

Pot. The first thing I thought of when you said ...not going there today...

How do i know? B/c I've dabbled. Sometimes I still dabble. I'm in a band; it seems to come up. I hate admitting it b/c I don't want people to think I'm the scum of the earth. I know I would be a better person if I didn't. Yes I look down on OM for his use, because he does such MASSIVE quantities, and can't seem to control it at all. And he has experimented with so many hard drugs, and these are NOT my thing.

I'm sorry if this has tainted your (or anyone's) opinion of me, but I can't talk about this with you without being honest. I don't do it around my kids, when I was taking my computer course, I didn't do ANY for 4-5 mths. It is a small part of my life, and I've NEVER hidden this fact from my W. She's always known. In the time we've been together, I've never let it interfere with my responsibilities, and my W would certainly agree; I know, spoken like a true addict...

My W hasn't been thrilled about it, but hasn't ever complained that it was something that was a problem. Yeah, I know, there is LOTS of things she never complained about that were OBVIOUSLY a problem. It is something that likely should have stopped entirely. W and I had talked about it lots, and she said she really accepted it. I don't believe that it has been the demise of our marriage, OM has told me that W has sometimes stopped by his apartment wanting to do it with him, he says he won't let her without me present. I hope so, I don't know how much discipline she would have with it. Interesting that she was volunteering to do it with him, not me. I've always been scared of being the cause of her use. I don't think she does it these days, or for a long time, but I guess I don't know. Early on, we did it together a couple times, W had done it in the past, and I have NEVER tried to manipulate her into doing it. Maybe I've made it uncomfortable for her to approach me to do it herself, and you know, I thought that this was good! I didn't want her to do it and resent me for it later. I prefer it over alcohol, rarely drink, my family and career(s) come first, so I really don't have much time to do it. Lately I've stopped entirely, I don't need that complicating my life while I am going through this...I tend to do it less when I'm stressed...

I don't condone its use, and I don't want my children doing it. Even my Mom knows. I don't know if I should be admitting this here but I've read some other posts here, that if I read between the lines, I know what they're talking about...

So that's how I knew, I know that it is attractive to want to be able to share your "feel goods" with your partner, and when you can't, you are vulnerable to wanting to share them with someone else. I made a pact with myself long ago that I would not find another woman friend who I enjoyed this with, too dangerous. Yes, OM was often my partner here. I always distanced myself from him so that I did not get wrapped up in his world though... just too mental. I wish now I had just closed the door on his friendship long ago, and I wouldn't be in this mess now.

So now I am afraid that if she gets involved in him further, she might be on a slippery slope, he has SO much influence on her, the bad girl in her was certainly tweaked when they where having their sex talks, talking about things that I just didn't think my W would EVER consider. I won't get into it, but 3way sex is much further than most people are willing to go, no? I would prefer knowing that she is into kinky, crazy sex, WITHOUT 3way, y'know?

So what is she capable of if she gets wrapped up in him later on, if I'm gone? Friend, lover, pot partner, whatever?! What else will she be influenced into thinking is innocent and right? She's pretty strong-willed, no doubt, and she HATES OM's pot use, other day he was "celebrating" getting a haircut, if you can believe it! And W was PISSED off at him. And he says,"I don't care, i'm doing it anyway". He tells me ,"let her get sick of this, she will eventually, and CJ you need to be her soft place to land." I actually think he's right here, but how long will it take for her fascination with OM to fade, that her "bad girl" side couldn't keep up with him if she tried, that she CAN'T fix him. That trying to be a part of his world will take her to dark places. Why can't he just do NC to speed up this process? I would've thought, and still think, that her strong-will and ideals would not allow her to get interested in the kind of sex OM was offering either. But she finds his world fascinating, I'm afraid that she might also find herself into it too much. I don't want my kids over there, I know he won't smoke pot in front of my kids, but what if he accidently leaves something out, and what if it happens to be hard drugs, in the past he's had many dealers go through there, and one dealer left his stash there for a time. I know, it took me years to find an equilibrium with his friendship that I was comfortable that I was protected from his psycological meanderings and lifestyle. I should have protected my wife more, had I known how far their friendship had gone, I think I would have, I tried to keep him at arm's length for me and my wife, but they bridged the gap on their own...

So there you have it, pummel me, I won't defend myself...

So has your H gone on AD's? If not, I'd be wondering also if his pot has started again also. Mix 'n matching seems like a bad idea, I remember thinking this when I went on AD's. Trust me, the last thing that will solve your H's mental state is pot, I've watched it ruin at least 2 other college buddies lives, as well as OM's. If it is done too often, I've seen how it changes behavior, and before you know it, you are skipping out of life b/c you don't have the ambition and energy to do constructive things. And it's VERY attractive when one is feeling down. I hope for your sake this isn't happening, b/c someone heavily involved in pot is someone who is very adept at denial and avoidance indeed.

I really hope that this is not part of your present sitch, but I'm guessing your certainly wondering...

Don't worry about rambling, I was more than curious to know if I was right, knowing these things sheds more light about your H and your sitch, and knowing these things clear up a lot about the type of person your H is and what you are dealing with.

So this all makes me think of the POJA!!! If pot is not something that you're willing to integrate into your marriage, then you shouldn't have to. If my M works out and my W feels the same, then I need to make the choice to stop. It would be a minor sacrifice to make my W's life and our marriage a happy one. I've always thought it was a minor problem, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was one more link in the chain, maybe my W doesn't care at all; this is certainly how she has acted, but we don't communicate worth a darn!

I wish knew when your day was coming, just know that it will, you won't have to live like this forever, and someday you won't! I'm starting to learn to look forward to that day...either this marriage will become wonderful, or someday I will have another marriage that IS. So will you. Imagine applying all he new things you have learned here and MB and having an amazing relationship within your marriage. It WILL happen, i guess all you're not sure about is WHO you will be married to! You obviously have a lot to offer someone, and you are incredibly insightful. You will make someone a fantastic partner! Dunno if St Thomas is available though...

Ummm, NOT warm here, but not bad for this time of year...~7deg F, we got TONS of snow yesterday, driving was quite a chore, and shoveling out the driveway took awhile, but we should be getting warmer this month as spring gets closer...

I've started the 180, but I'm taking a sensitive approach, I've noticed that when I get too indifferent, my W tends to think I'm doing dishonest things, so I can't be too mysterious or I think she will just quit. It is a fine line, isn't it? Weird though she comes downstairs last night to show me the new stamps she bought for scrapbooking, cheerfully reminds me this morning that she is taking Calli (2yrs) to speech therapy, I hardly looked at her this morning, and she says "good morning". I don't hug her anymore, no ILY's, and it is to the point where it doesn't bother me much, I think. I not sure. I want my marriage, I don't want this alien!

Is this how it is for you? Do you feel numb? Does this make it easier? I have moments where I just want to cuddle up with her, but then I remind myself of all the ways she's hurt me... 2 affairs that I know of, I might get into this later..., it's in the last post on my thread.

Of course you stayed last time this happened. You did the right thing, and got through it, and had a wonderful marriage, but yes now your here again. Not fair. No doubt. God gave us free will and your husband is making bad choices right now. Still, even though we have free will, I believe that God is in the driver's seat, and he is looking out for you and Jay. You'll find happiness again, God will let you know how, I too am struggling with being patient.

Hope Jay gets better, whew, you think YOU rambled!

I hate being sick. Jay gave me the funk, which he picked up from his daddy...now me. I have felt horrid all day..little bit better now. just tired of lying around so i thought i would say Hey.

H kept Jay this evening until he fell asleep, then brought him home. He promised to pick him up from preschool tomorrow for me...making the comment "i need to make an effort" you sure do!!!

CJ as far as the pot goes....not something i would have EVER dreamed my H would do. Oh sure i knew about when he was 18 and did. He liked to party and run around just as most young guys do...but after he got older he grew out of it. We had been married 5 years when the first "episode" happened. My H hates...no let me rephrase...HATES!!!!!! alcohol. yep did that too when he was young...but just to fit in. His dad being an alcoholic turned him against it totally. My sis and BIL both drink casually. DRIVES H crazy. got so upset last Christmas because they brought a bottle of wine to my dads...he was ready to leave.

I calmed him down and said...if they drink in front of Jay then we will go...but please lets try to not make an issue...(i always try to keep the peace..and have my whole life...that's what divorce does to children huh?) anyway...they didn't and he was tolerable. When we left he told me...NEVER again will i allow you to talk me into to keeping quiet. I don't want my son around it while i have say so over his life. I won't do it again. I hate it and i don't want Jacob around it.

I said okay...i understand. I admired him so much for feeling so strongly about it...and i just couldn't imagine saying anything else. It moved me. it made me just love him more. Seeing how much he did not want his son around what he hated so much. His dad wasn't there for him. Drank All the time. didn't go to H graduation...nothing. Never did much of anything with him. He did come to our wedding which shocked my H...but he was so proud he did. anyway....I knew he was only trying to protect Jay from what killed him growing up.

thats what i try to stress to him right now. I am trying to keep Jay from what killed me growing up too. but i can't...Why doesn't he see that from me? I told him one time...divorce to me is what alcohol is to you. I said you never wanted Jay around alcohol..well i never wanted him around adultry either. Why is it i am always the loser?


Yes H is on ADs now...started back in December. Jay finally threw a fit in front of him...as a result to his leaving and it tore his butt up! so he promised for me and Jay (yep he said me too) that he would call his Dr. and go back on them. he did and that has always been the excuse for why he is still gone. "my pills haven't kicked in good yet" or "well i am a fruitloop" or "my minds messed up you know" ...then after the first month...it was ..."well i don't think it's strong enough..i need to increase my dosage"...so he went back to the Dr. in January...she uped the dosage...then the excuses were "well it will take 2-3 weeks for the higher dosage to kick in" "maybe when this higher dosage kicks in i'll know if i want to come home or not" "when these pills kick in maybe then i'll know if i want to work on the marriage"...he's been on the "higher dosage" almost 2 months. He isn't using the pills much anymore...he knows he has "run out of time" with that excuse. Yes before he mixed the 2...it was awful. that is why i said when he came home...it was horrid. One min. fine...the next...Good Lord..run for cover... He is on Effexor now...but i didn't read on the insert that it ENDS AFFAIRS...maybe that will be his new excuse..."well these pills haven't made me stop screwing around yet...i guess they haven't kicked in yet"

I don't think he is doing pot now. No...this OW is too different. She's an old money hag. she lives in a 1.2 million dollar house...no lie man. She is what SHE would like to think high class. she is a POS in my opinion, and the eyes of everyone i know. although her home might be high dollar...she isn't. living way above their means. No my H is dressing, grooming, and acting so differently. Wearing stuff i used to try to get him to wear. cutting his hair differently....like i had asked him to try for 12 years...funny wouldn't try anything for me...but then this old grandmaw comes along and he is willing to do anything she suggests.

what gives? but anyway...i don't believe they or he is doing pot this time. He quit immediately after i found out before...handed everything over to me. I don't think he ever did afterward...never any signs of it. No he changed for the better last time...MUCH better...he really really is a good man...way down deep in there.

Not so sure that man will ever surface again. sometimes i see a glimpse or two. He just seems to not be interested in me. Just at times and thats not often. Last night he came down and kept shooting this little gun thing of Jays at my chest. over and over. I just ignored him. It was so hot in the house...(it was 76 here yesterday) and i was wearing what i would in the summer...tank and capri's...i don't know...that was the first time in a long time he acted interested "that way" but again...i just ignored him. thought it would be best. all i could think about was how he spent the day with OW while i lost a days pay and Jay was here sick.

oh well. i just don't know what to do/think/say or be anymore. I am just starting to not care about anything but Jay. I am tired of him. GUYS I AM JUST SICK AND TIRED OF HIM. if the old, wonderful, loving, caring man isn't coming back...then i just want out. i know i need to rock his world..but i don't know what or how.

I can't leave. I refuse to. I am not moving in with my parents i don't care. Will not do it. this is my home. Jays home. Jay needs something stable in his life...this is all he has and i won't take this away. However...i don't know what else to do. that is the only thing i can think of that might just scare him...but even still...i'm not sure it would. He said before "if you move...i'll just come by where you are everyday"

I have to just keep praying. Hoping God will bring this out into the light of day! Hoping to see H sporting a couple of black eyes one day from OWH. just hoping and praying God will end this soon!

well...gotta go...can't breathe again...

later! JM

Wow,

Your H feels THAT strongly about alcohol? That says alot about his character...I think that it is great he feels so strongly, esp with the situation with his dad, so sorry to hear all that, must've been a tough time...

I can relate, my dad is an alcoholic, I think he's doing better with it now that my parents are together again, but i know it sure made me NOT to want to be in the same boat. I drink sometimes and I don't mind it, but MODERATION is the name of the game for EVERYTHING for me, whether it's drinking, watching TV, playing guitar, etc. Almost ANYTHING can be too much (and therefore damaging) if done too much where necessary things get neglected...

I'm glad to hear that you don't think that your H is doing pot right now, you don't need that. Just be careful not to assume that certain "types" of people don't do it (ie. "high-class"), in my experience I have been amazed over and over to find out who are closet smokers. (university profs, businessmen...) I do trust your intuition on this one though, sounds like your H really does have a strong value system, no wondering this affair is so confusing...no wonder it's impossible for him to admit...



Yeah, I really agree with you on this, why does your H get to choose what is damaging to your marriage? Excessive drinking is not good for a family, but neither is an A. Your NOT always the loser, it just feels that way. The despair comes from not seeing results, you are doing the right things, you are so right on this point! There are many things that damage a relationship...again the WS gets to make the rules, and in order to try to win them back, we have to fight fair, not your fault...but I don't think you're blaming yourself...

I'm glad your H is on AD's, I hope it helps, he must be swimming in guilt right now, I'm sure the AD's have kicked in just fine by now...he knows using them as an excuse is futile...keep communicating logic to him, calm, no LB's, you know all this...



I feel you. It's hard to watch the influence OP has on your S. My W wife talks just like OM these days, uses his reasoning, it's just hard to watch...she uses the word "nasty" all the time now...OM's favorite word for the last year...the influence is so deep, that's why our words have so little effect, but OP's words go miles, I try not to worry about it, just another reason why recovery does NOT start effectively until OP is gone...it's one of those ongoing dull pains that we endure, it really makes me numb...

I think he is still interested in you, he just wonders why he doesn't feel electric, like he maybe used to. Another thing I deal with, WS's just get unrealistic thoughts, how do you make an older relationship feel NEW? You can't! But mature, comfortable love is the BEST!!! They just can't see it right now...the excitment they are wrapped up in causes comparisons all over the place, another reason that NC needs to happen...I wish we knew how to make this happen...

I like the idea that he is trying to flirt with you, I think he wants to bring his feelings back, he's testing you to see if you could be receptive, I'm not sure HOW you ought to react. Will no reaction cause him to get discouraged or want to quit? I know my W's last attempts to come to me got rejected and that was the last straw for her. Maybe a small smile to let him know he's welcome? Let him want to try some more? But maybe he just wants to approval, hoping you are still there, wrong message? Nothing else though, just a smile. I don't know, maybe doing this is the wrong thing, what do you think?

I think he knows he needs to make a decision soon, I know it has been a long time...but I still think that something is around the corner...



No kidding, who wouldn't be?! Hang in there, if you feel this way, it will come out in your 180, he gets it, you are putting pressure on him to come home, GOOD! Keep working it, one day, it will be YOU that gets to decide if the marriage lives or dies, and you WILL be in control, and he will either come to you, or you will quit for good, either way, you will find happiness!!

I hope this day will come soon, still praying...focus on what you want...focus on this happy day, it WILL happen, is HAS to, even your H knows it. And he's scared. very.

cheers, CJ

Hmmm...

Thought about this some more, nay to the smile I think. He is already attached to you, feeling guilty, NO need to help him feel like he still has you in tow and doesn't need to make a decision right now!

Stick with the 180 hardcore, force a resolution, he needs to start hearing the clock ticking!

Later!

Monday's almost here...Ugghhh!!

hows it goin' guys? this weekend has been too short. Nothing much going on here except the same. Jay and i have both been sick since last week. H has been very helpful with jay for the most part. He has asked me several times if i needed anything...showing a little concern...thats good right? oh who knows anymore.

doing the 180 thing right now as we speak. H and Jay are playing Playstation in the living room, while i type a bit here.

Today Jay told me while we were driving down the road that he has seen OW several times in past with my H. You know i was just steaming! Wonder how OWH would like it if OW brought their daughter along to meet my H? especially if daughter had no say so in the matter as my sweet baby boy doesn't. No way. Her H would die.

this is just killing me. Its like he just did it to be mean to me. Why? what in the world have i done? I just don't get this. How can you be so in love with someone and then not the next day? In love with someone else overnight? oh i know its not love with them. Love doesn't come from sin and distrust and lies. So life with me wasn't exciting anymore...Good Lord...who has a life that is just always going great. i wish they would get a grip on life.

i think i'm going mental. this is really beginning to take great toll on me. I am strong...but i am not going to last forever this way.

my best friend and i were talking today and she suggested a PI...for pictures and to go back to OWH and RE expose. don't know if it will do any good or not? but heck what do i have to lose.

H still here everyday. Always ?'s if i seem in a less talkative mood. "whats wrong" ..."nothing...just in here reading" "oh" ....You know it's funny. He is here. Has supper here. plays here. Even put Jay to bed last night for me. He's here...every evening...but he leaves to sleep next door at his moms. He comes home in late afternoon...after he spends time with her. It seems as though he wants to be here, and time with her is less...but yet....there is still a HER.

what is the hold this OW has on him? Why can't he let go? or is it that its my fault? I am not giving him any reason to let go of her am I? Nope. I am still trying to Plan A...I don't tell him...oh it's okay..come home honey when your done with her. No i tell him to end it all the time. But come on guys...6 months and its not over. Yes in the past few months he has turned towards me...more and more...but yet...i've not done anything to make him turn completely. But what? what can i do? I need to scare him but i don't know how.

legal papers won't do it. Tried that...didn't work. leaving won't work...and i don't want to do it because of Jay. Plan B won't work because i can't get it thru his stupid head he can't come and go here all the time. VERY difficult. He calls, comes in...How do i put my foot down..or somewhere uncomfortable...HOW can i scare the holy..out of him...?

Ugghhh....thoughts anyone?

CJ...hope your okay...hope the weekend went okay for you...anything new going on?

gotta go...my little southern boy needs "somepin' to drank"

thanks guys for letting me vent! what would i do without you guys?

JM

I am afraid that you are putting Jay's TODAY best interests ahead of Jay's FOREVER best interests. The day I told DD5 that we might divorce she still claims was the worst day of her life, but I had already filed. If I hadn't done that, H would still be in that same job, working around OW, maybe living with her and OC, or at least he would still be seeing her.

Recovery didn't happen easily, and it didn't happen on its own, and it didn't happen without taking things to the limit.

MSA

Hi JM,

Don't have much time, just thought I'd quote your Romans 8:28 for you here...



You've probably already read these, but here are some more readings, I take heart in them b/c the word of the Lord reinforces that marriage is supposed to be forever, AND that there is forgiveness for adultery, and so it must be this way with US.

Corinthians 7
John 8:4-11
Mark 10
Matthew 19

Take care, I'll check in later... weekend wuz OK, got a bad flu on Sunday, missed work yesterday, my M is still in a stalemate...

I hope your doing better...all my hopes for Jay!

l8r! CJ

CJ-your just the best! been looking for you wondering how your doing! gettin' kinda worried since i haven't heard from you.

Yeah know what you mean...my M same as well. I have been doing the 180 without even really trying since i have been sick. just don't feel like giving him any attention...can't hardly give my child any much less him. He has been different since i got sick. Can't explain it really.

I have decided i am making some changes soon....i have to. don't exactly know what, when or how but i will let you guys know. God will tell me when.

Just a note to you and anyone else out there who might read this post. the past 3 days i have really been down. Emotionally, mentally...completely drained. Yes, i have been sick...which has helped me to feel that way...but i have just felt...empty. I continue praying and praying...maybe not with all the effort i have in the past but still...praying without ceasing...for the man i love, my family, and the M i want so desperately to save. I have felt so many days that God has left me. I know that God loves me...and wants the best for me...but WE all feel this way at times....we know He loves us...but sometimes we get so drained we don't really FEEL it.

I woke up this morning...after having a crazy dream...and the song "Jesus take the wheel" going thru my head. I prayed and started my day as usual but definitely feeling God's presence...just that peace and comfort that He gives. On the way to work, on the radio...a woman was asked how she was getting thru the tough trial she was going thru and her answer was God. I sat there...tears in my eyes...feeling everything this woman was feeling...different trials...different circumstances...but God is with us...every step. He has been for me. Even when i cannot feel him...and feel left alone...God is there. The song that came on the radio after that..."Jesus take the wheel"

I just want to say...that so many days i feel like giving up and running away...but My God is there. Today he reminded me and i am writing to tell you or anyone out there who feels like there is no hope. that you are not alone...when you feel so gutted from your heartache...God is there. Just a prayer away. he can fix anything. He is the only answer. He brings trials in our lives...to draw us close to him...Just hang on...Let God be in control....

Let Jesus take the wheel...

I thank everyone for their kind words and advice! I pray for everyone on here daily...this site has been such a comfort and blessing to me!

My trial isn't over but i know it won't kill me and in the end i will be in a better place....

CJ hang in there....thank you so much for the verses! Much needed! let me know how things are going for you!

Jaysmom

Hmmm...

Kinda freaky how my post lined up with your mindset, eh? I was praying to God to give me some sign of hope, that He is working, and that He is out there...

And then I end up doing this! And therein lies my sign...thank you Jesus!

Didn't think my sign would come THROUGH me, rather I was looking for something to HAPPEN to me! God is within us!

So I guess we still need to look for the signs in everything, it just seems like there isn't enough when we are feeling so exhausted that we just want a chance, and exercise our TAKER for awhile...

I try to remember the ultimate person who could suppress their taker like no other, JESUS CHRIST!!!!!

I've never been a huge bible-thumper, but I've always been a believer, my extra efforts in scripture lately have gotten me by... you seem energized by the power of the Lord... you're in a good place.

Gotta go, I'll check l8r! I sincerely hope that I'm helping your life, I can't seem to help my own, I kinda took a mental break this weekend, just did whatever, and relaxed, it was needed, don't you feel like your efforts get largely wasted? That's how I feel.

Oh, Hi MSA, hope you're doing well!

Hi JM,

Just asking for a little prayer, SD's Dad and Stepmom just had a baby girl this morning, but she's VERY early and in intensive care. Doctor had a meeting this afternoon, the outcome was that she will in ICU for the next 48-72hrs, and will need to stay and the hosiptal for the next 2wks.

It seems that she'll be OK, but everyone is tense, "wait and see" attitude.

I'm worried about SD, she was just bouncing off the walls this morning excited!! I asked her if she'd get to help name the baby, she said,"No, I only get to name YOUR babies." (she helped name DD) "I want a brother so I can name it." I didn't know what to say...left for work pretty down, I don't know if this will ever happen...I'd love to have a son...

Well JM I hope you're OK, I don't know what to say, I think you need some changes also, whether to reexpose (which might put a chink in your 180), or to do some type of Plan B, or something legal, I wish we knew...

I still think you H is coming closer to you...he is just unable to keep away! I know this drives you nuts, but I just want you to remember that THIS is your ace in the hole...we need to find a way to exploit this!

(((JM))) Take care.

CJ

Dear Jaysmum

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here... I have been lurking for a month or so now but found your thread tonight and I want to say we live on totally opposite sides of the planet ..yet I seem to be living the exact same craziness you are now. I am also trying to do this thing dealing with a WH who I kicked out ..to unfortunatley just next door. I also have 4 year old boy ( and his name begins with J too) So WH is coming back and forth 2-3 times a day to see kids. I think I have been plan A ing for about 5 years without knowing it obviously unsuccesfully as he hit me with affair number 2 when I was 3 months pregnant with my daughter ( now 9 months)( and I hadn't recovered from the first affair yet!)

I will post my story here sometime but in the mean time I just wanted to say how much of your thread and posts and your WH's behaviour Was like reading my own story ..are you sure you are not a fly on the wall in our house here???

For example ....about 3 days after I had asked him to leave (mid Feb) he comes in again to spend time with kids ( just as he had every day) ... I can't stand him acting like it's business as usual ... so I make myself scarce ..I had just spent 3 totally sleepless nights in utter tears that our marraige had come to this ...I was an absolute wreck.. So i left him with kids in family room and went to bathroom to brush hair or something (aka escape) I heard him come in ..I said " go away, I'm having a bad day ..I am not coping with this and I can't deal with it or you now ..go away and play with the kids" and he says to me " What's wrong" in a nice sweety voice (aaaaaaaaaaaagh! my brain says) so I grip the bathroom cabinet, grit my teeth, try and hold it together and say again calmly " I can't cope with you right now, I am having a bad day, just leave me alone and go and play with the kids" And he says ( in super concerned nice voice " What are you upset about now?" ( Brain says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aargh!!!!!!!!!!! Your kidding right? What planet are you my dear supposed husband actually living on? Hello!!! YOu are having an affair! It has been going on for over 12 months. You have just got back from a holiday with this OW and I have given up on my marraige and told you to move out! What do you think I am upset about!?" But instead I say calmly " this is why I am not able to deal with this today, if you don't know what I am upset about by now after 4-5 years I can't do this any more ..but I can't deal with it now ... leave me alone and go play with the kids ..Please!" So he says in a less nicey fed up tired of my wifes dramas again voice " What have you found out now?" ( Brain now screams: ARGH AND Wants to pull newly brushed hair out of head and bang head violently on nearest wall while brain shouts 'what do you mean found out something else ..what else could I possibly find that would be bigger and better than I have already found over the years and If I found something new again ... why would discussing with you make one iota of difference .. you just keep doing the same old stuff over and over again and the lies get bigger and better no matter what I find and confront you with" But instead I sit on floor and calmly say a few words before baby starts crying ( and I am in tears by now anyway) so i again say "Can't deal with this now ..leave me alone and go play with DS I have to go and feed DD. Just go away and leave me be) ( Shortly after this I lost it .... a good story but a long one so I won't go on boring you with it now )

So the husband asking "what are you upset about" frustration i relate to.

It also seems like your WH seems to waltze in nice for the most part acting as if business is as usual. Same here.
Since I asked my WH to leave ...I have had no other discussion about OW or our M or anything other than kids/business/or finances ( apart from a couple of comments about OW in the last few weeks ( which for me is a huge difference) He wanders in to see kids mroning afternoon and night ... asks if I want a coffee ( I usually decline) I usually make my self scarce ( go to bedroom or go to my office and do work) I hear him fluffing about in the kitchen taking out my garbage or putting some stuff in dishwasher or picking up some kids toys trying to be helpful
( Brain screams :ARRRRGH I'll deal with the messy house ...I don't want you to help with housework ..I want you to stop having and affair, get rid of OW, and show that you CARE that you have hurt me so much and that you CARE/Understand that your marraige is collapsing like and avalanche)
Yesterday he took DS to go get some milk and bread which we needed and said to DS " Let's take mummies car for a car wash"
Today he came over with a photo he'd taken of DD a few days ago he'd printed out and put in a frame for me. ( Brain screams : AAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! If you love me and daughter so much why did you have an affair while she was in me and once she had popped out and you decided you really loved her why did you continue your affair ...and if she is so cute and you love her so much now and you love me enough to print me out a nice photo showing how much you care ...why can't you go and end it with OW right now ..and come tell me you've done so AAAAARHG!Where is some hair to pull out ..where is the nearest brick wall) What do you say to such men? I give up really I do. so I just said " Gee that's nice ..thankyou"

So here I sit, kids are asleep, I am lurking on MB and wasting emotional energy trying to keep my sanity and WH is over the house next door working on his computer ( Not much different to before I kicked him out really)

I don't know which plan I am in right now ... but I do appreciate the support that others like yourself are going through similar madness.

so please, next time your WH walks in the door acting like everything is OK and you have no idea what to say or how to react whether you should be Nice, or ignor him, or bring up M and OW, or act happy like nothing is going on just like him, or make him jealous that youa re getting on with your life , or hit him with divorce papers, or just try and bite your toungue and hold the tears back and keep it together because your 4 year old is beside you and he loves his dad and is pleased to see his dad ..please please please know that you are not the only one ...I am going through exactly the same thing on a daily basis right here right now ..just on the other side of the planet.

Please take care of yourself and your boy.

WOW!

WOW!!

WOW!!!

Hi there crazymakingstuff... dunno if this is my place here on JM's thread, but...

Welcome to MB!! Sorry you are going through this. No doubt it is hard, and I'm shocked with the similarities your have with JM.

I'm sure it will be a comfort for her to read this knowing that you are enduring the same...I wish you BOTH did not have to do this...

5 years! Are you serious? I can't imagine what you have gone through. Suddenly I feel selfish for wallowing in my own sitch. I hope you're OK...I hope you have some hair left at the end of this!

Take care of yourself, I think you gals have a lot to talk about...

hey guys!

wow indeed! i cannot believe CMS...you and i are married to the same man apparently!

things seem somewhat better...i think???!!! H seems very...oh can't seem to find the word i am looking for...ummmmm almost oh...gosh...no word seems to fit. Saddened...no...repenting....kinda....

now don't get me wrong...he hasn't confessed or anything but something is different with him lately. Kinda hanging his head, staying around longer, calling me at work, putting Jay to bed the past few nights (which is what HE ALWAYS did before d-day) Continuing to stay the same...he isn't going back and forth with himself.

oh gosh...none of this is sounding right. Its not making sense as i type it. i wish i could explain it. H seems to be hitting some sort of a turn around....almost like he is feeling ashamed, sad...like he now really KNOWS what he wants...but is still not ready to do what it will TOTALLY take.

He is still seeing OW. but IMO doesn't seem as happy about it.

I did find something interesting out the past couple of days. Long story...but....my best friend has a friend who goes to OW's church. OWH is a very good christian man, very involved in the church, teaches SS class both of them apparently very involved....a couple of weeks ago OWH resigned his position and they have since left the church. Best friend said that her friend didn't know why (my friend exposed the A to her...and she was shocked by it...)and that everyone was ? why they left.

I know your probably thinking...what does that have to do with anything...and maybe it doesn't, but i believe that it is proof to me...that things with OW and OWH are not going smoothly. Something is going on....maybe OWH found out some things or someone in their church did...SOMETHING...

My point...God is working...EVEN when you don't always feel it or see it.

I don't know if things really are turning around...maybe i am too hopeful. Last night we watched a movie and had supper together...

i am starting to FEEL like it is hopeful anyway!

please keep praying....

gotta go! i'll post more later!

CJ--hope your okay! I'll check in on you in a bit...gotta work!!
JM

Hi JM,

How are you doing? Any developments?

CJ

hey CJ! i was checking in on you yesterday and saw that your thread on GQ took off...thats good. Sounds like your getting alot of good advice! I hope your doing okay!

things are about the same. Nothing new really. H really starting to seem sorrowful. hanging the head alot the past week or so. Starting to say he is a POS and things like that. wonder what that means? He is different. He is really, really different. I dunno how to describe him...and i am curious as to what it means.

My health hasn't been the best lately and since...that is when i have seen the change in him. I have some health "issues" going on...that are kinda scarry to him i think...Maybe that is helping bring him out of the fog. Weird huh?

also my DS told him i had a friend named "Todd" that i talked to. I don't have a friend named Todd. Never have. Don't know WHERE that came from. he questioned me about it. my best friend wondered if H made it up so that i might call Jay a liar and he could say "see i have never had jay around OW" but ....Jay told me he told H that. I said "son, who is my friend Todd?" he looked up toward the sky and said...thats Todd. I just shook my head and said okay...but i don't talk to him...do i? he said...nope, i do. DS has had an imaginary friend for couple of years now. His name...damage...yep...damage. (has a couple of others too...pooty and chooty...my son has the wildest imagination) but don't know this Todd fellow. i don't think Jay lied about OW, but he did lie about the Todd thing. Now i wonder...really am i going crazy?

the past couple of days H and i have had good conversations. last night i thought i was almost gonna get a confession out of him, but he stopped before crossing that bridge...still it was break through...he is almost repentful..(is that a word?) anyway...

with that...what should i do? or do i do anything? Is this A possibly dying? is that why the change in him? my fear is that in a day or two he will fall backwards again and i don't think i can physically or mentally handle it. My health issues are heart related and this situation isn't helping only hurting them. My son is my life and i want to be his mommy for as long as God will allow me...

maybe removing myself from here and staying with my dad for a while until i am feeling better will help in more ways than one. Help me...but maybe leaving while he is in this state of somewhat sorrow will be what he needs to make him fall off the fence he has reclined on for almost 7 months.

oh who knows...any thoughts anyone?

CJ-hang in there...keep me posted on anything new!

gotta go...Jaysmom

ok guys...i'm getting a little freaked out right now. H called twice this am "checking in" sounding even more sorrowful, pitiful, sad...than ever. Picked my Rx up for me at the pharmacy (told him i had to get it today, when i got there they said...your H already picked it up), bought some things i needed and Jay several things today.

right now he's playing in the living room with Jay...all sad acting and down. Freaking guys what is it?

Yes he is always here anymore this time of day...hanging out with us. I have made myself busy the past 2 days and he hasn't seen either of us...he made sure he came to leave the lights on though the past couple of nights so i wouldn't have to come in the dark.

The sad, pitiful act is freaking me out. What does this mean? Yeah, i've seen it at times...this is the worst...and the longest...almost a week of it now...but each day it gets worse.

Is this good? Or is something bad around the corner? Or is it just a phase?

Any thoughts guys?

Gotta go before he comes in and catches me....hehe!

Jaysmom

Hi JM!

I think it is a good sign. Please be careful with getting your hopes up though, we can't be sure, and who knows how long he will stay in this stage!!

I willing to bet the guilt is really starting to seep in. POUR ON THE COAL!

Oh JM, please take care of you and your heart! I felt awful for you when I read this...

Todd, eh? Hmmm...well a little jealousy might just be what is needed here...

Take care, I'll check back ina bit...

CJ

well the sad, pitiful, feel sorry for me act is gone. dang it. I liked it. it was at it's heaviest yesterday. making me think he was possibly in the withdrawl stage. thinking OMG...the A has ended. It just had to. Lookey here at him all sad and needy.

eeh. today he is a butt. Not a butt like he has been. Just not like the past week...i was liking the "oh please feel sorry for me" bit.

Of course...his attitude today was probably a result of my best friend. she's very OUT SPOKEN and the past 'almost' 7 months of biting her tongue ended today. she got ahold of my WH and gave him an ear full. He hung the phone up on her. I was proud of her for taking up for me, but also afraid of what damage could've done to me as well. I was afraid H would get mad at me thinking i had something to do with it. I had NO idea she was going to call him. She told him she thought what he was doing was wrong and she was tired of seeing him hurt me. told him "you know what your doing is wrong...noone needs to tell you that...why don't you be a man and stop hiding behind your moma's skirt tail"

He of course told me about it. He said he wasn't angry with me and knew i wasn't behind it. H knows best friend very well and wasn't at all surprised at the call. Only negative thing he really said about her was that he told her he never wanted to speak to her again.

At least if nothing else...he is starting to see how he looks thru others eyes. Understand guys...my H has lived during this A, the past 6+ months with not one soul but me saying anything...yes you heard me right...NOT ONE PERSON has said ANYTHING to him about the A, about losing me, about how he is screwing his life up...nothing...noone....

EXCEPT ME. his mommy just lets him come and go. avoiding contact and communication with him...to please him. He works pretty much by himself, only seeing his boss at times and the other guys..only in passing...so even though they "know" they just don't speak of it. He isn't close to any of his family...just his mom...and has not a friend in the world calling him at all. My best friends H, who is his closest friend....hasn't talked with him since after Christmas. they spoke briefly at Jays party but only chit chat.

Is that a reason that this could still be ongoing maybe? the fact that he has noone saying anything to him. His only friend besides me is this OW. His contacts are ME and OW. his mom in passing. His son.

Good Lord. I'm going mental. wait i'm already mental. where do you go from there. cause i'm there. OMG i'm there and i am so mental i don't even know what "there" is. See guys...gone...losing it. whew.

As he left tonight...he said...well i should be home about the same time as you do tomorrow. Sure after you run around with your old ugly ho, you'll come home to your wife and son. i just can't get the image of this OW out of my mind the past couple of days. Guys i have said it before and i'm gonna say it again...She ain't pretty. I mean she is just NOT attractive at all. If some of the guys he worked with knew...i imagine they just might say...dude...your wife is hot...what the HECK are you doing? Seriously...they would laugh at him...she's that bad. they know what he is doing they just don't know the who. no one has seen the who except me and my best friend.

Ick! it's late and i am rambling. oh well. thought i would just post an update for anyone who gives a.

CJ...trying to keep up with you on GQ but that thread has really taken off! lots to read...maybe someone has given you some good advice i could use too!

see you guys later! Jaysmom

Hi JM,

Oh I wish I knew how to help you! I wish I knew how to make this all stop...for both of us.

I wouldn't worry that his "pitiful" attitude seems to be gone right now, if your BF gave him an earful, he likely has to go back into denial to cope, pretty normal.

Did your BF say if he said anything to confirm or deny this A. Sorry, I'm curious, but does he lie about the A to others? I glad to hear your H doesn't blame you for the call, don't worry about what damage is done, I suspect none, at any rate, it was out of your control, wasn't it?

So I'm sorry to say, but it seems that exposure didn't work real well for you b/c it didn't put on "public" pressure. As I learn, it seems that this is what exposure is about, revealing the A to people who can have an influence on H. Sadly, it sounds like there is not much influence... so YES, to answer your question, my take is that the exposure hasn't created enough influence on HIM. But don't underestimate the influence on OW. If her husband is aware, and it seems some strangeness is occuring on THAT side of the fence, then you can bet that he is being vigilant. HOW could you be married, find out about OW's A, and not care? I mean, EVEN if he is sick of her, he is a good christian man, wouldn't think that he would SUPPORT it, would'ja? The influence may very well be coming in the other direction...don't give up hope!

I'm willing to bet that, in a day or two, your H will be back to his resentful self, if not he'll be cheerful...but STILL more mentally "present" at home. Don't fear a regression here, it's likely to be short lived. When you get into recovery, I suspect this'll happen from time to time... (a regression, that is...)

Yeah, I've been getting a lot of support, and it is really making me want to spring into action. I'm a newbie, but I've been trying to post to others also, to give back. I've not really been doing the 180 anymore, I know, I go back and forth, but it really doesn't seem to be all that effective, being loving works just as well...I worry that doing the 180 too closely resembles my behavior from b4 this crisis, y'know? I was very distant...

Most of my supporters are urging me to expose. So I plan to, worried about the effects, but I'm tired of doing nothing. Lovinganyway is helping me with my LB's, breaking down how I think about my present, and aiding awareness of my emotions, boundaries, and reality. Very helpful. Still frustrating though, I don't get a lot of chances to practice this with my W, we have so little undivided attention time. But I think the point is that I practice this with MYSELF. The Wonderings, Owl, Eagle, all have chimed in and been helpful...

Dunno what might apply to you. LA's posts apply for ANYONE who is concerned with handling DJ's and SD's, and O&H. Check them out, as well as her posts on threads adrianc, mrlockedup, whereranswers, and got2keeptrying.

I'm worried about exposing, but I think I would feel ok about it if I do it a certain way with an express purpose for saving my family, not to shame my W. At any rate, I am aware that i need to start taking the lead, the waiting is not helping, thinking about just going ahead and seeing a priest, and inviting my W along, I feel I need to get surrounded by people who support marriage, rather than her friends and OM who, despite their "support" isn't pushing for marriage the way I hope for, they mostly just reinforce her own negative feelings...

But I have been doing OK, hope you have too, hope your heart is OK, it's really taken a beating (no pun...i won't joke about your health) emotionally and now physically. I'll pray for your health and happiness. They are coming...you've earned them, give it time...

I still think that your ace in the hole is that your H just NEEDS to be with you and Jay at home. He is there so often, obviously worries about you, picks up medicine. And yes, i know, this is confusing and drives you mental. Well not to worry, you just declared that you aren't "going" mental anymore, but rather you "are" mental!! How liberating for you! Now don't worry about it, this process is over, hehe, and that's left is living.

As LA told me "hug reality hard". This is your sitch, whether you like it or not, your worry (ie. craziness) comes from not being able to control what is going on with your H. This leads to obsession, which leads to emotions, which lead to frustration. And this is you making you hurt! Stop hurting yourself! The A is not your fault, right? Your BF's call was not your fault. Having Jay mixed up in this is not your fault and not Jay's fault. When your emotions are coming at you, ask what they mean, why they are there...they are giving you information, about what you are willing to do, how you want to live, what you need. Pause, breathe, listen to them, and realize that they are reactions to things that are out of your control, or things within your control. Are you angry? Think about why. Because things are happening that are outside your boundaries? Good to know. What things, who is doing them? If not you, then think about who. Your H? OW, OWH? Yourself? Now you have this info. by the time you figure out the cause, you will have processed the emotion. Emotional reaction uses a different part of the brain (forget where I read this recently), admit to yourself the moment you are having an emotional reaction, say,"Hmmm, I'm feeling sad/frustrated/angry right now". yeah, kinda Freudish. This activates your logical brain, and helps override your reactions.

Then analyze the reasons why you feel the way you feel. If you can't control these reasons, allow yourself to ACCEPT it. Accept that these things are NOT your fault. Because why should you be responsible for someone elses actions? If the reasons CAN be controlled by you, if they come from you, then make the changes. See, information. Very useful, been helping me alot. My take on LA's posts. Redirect yourself, put into action what you CAN, don't ruminate on what you CAN'T. CAN is more fun, can allows you to act. It allows you to live. Live. Reality is NOT what we want it to be right now. Just NOW. But it is where we are. It is not forever. Don't fall in love with your future though, be IN the NOW. Find in it what you can, enjoy your H's company, joke with him, play with Jay, make your NOW inviting to yourself. You CAN. Others CAN'T. You CAN'T make your H remorseful. He CAN. Is he living in his NOW? Doesn't matter. You see?! Is something happening on the other side of the world that would make you sick? Probably. Doesn't matter, it CAN'T. Will you spend all your time thinking about how to influence your H, or how to influence your happiness? Ration some time for YOU. You deserve it. Your H has his own truth, and will face more of his truth as time goes on. But what's true for you? Are you happy with yourself? You CAN be, I'll bet you are proud of what you are doing...hmmm, good thought for me too, I'm HAPPY I'm doing what I'm doing. You are doing what makes you happy. Cool. And you'll continue doing things that make you happy. You don't like your sitch. Doesn't mean you aren't being the best YOU that YOU CAN. These actions define our morals, values. Who else can take this away? Who else can take US away? No one. Nope. They CAN'T. They should worry about something else also.

Don't worry, be happy! (de do do do d-do, d-do do, do de do...) I'm singing the song, cuz I'm mental. It really is liberating...

CJ-your the bomb!

thank you, thank you, thank you! so needed to hear that today!

Your post made me really think hard about things! i've been reading LAs posts...she scares me too sometimes...but she is soooo good! really takes things that are right in our face, too close for us to see, and explains them so well!

I totally agree with you about the 180 thing. In our M...i did the same. doesn't work well, especially when that was one of the biggest problems we had in our M. One of the reasons i feel that pushed H away from me. Hard for me to see how it can work for me if that is what helped put me here, ya know. does that make sense?

Oh if not...chalk it up to the mental thing! Feeling alot of pressure from everyone to leave my H, my home...just no pressure from God to do it. I have let God guide me this far and i want God to continue to guide me and show me! I want God's perfect will for my life, my M, my baby boy. Sure leaving might just open his eyes, then again it might only open them for a time...he comes home...we work things out...only to happen again. Nope i want the REAL fix. God's fix!

I will continue to pray, continue my faith.

you know what CJ-i think your right about his needing to be with us. He does. i enjoy our time together. its good. We are together every day. supper together. movies, games...even put Jay to bed together the other night. I miss him when he leaves...but...i don't die. sometimes i am glad when he leaves...i have time to me. I know when he leaves...he hates it. He hates leaving, but he just can't stay. Not ready to. I want him when he is ready, not before that point.

No, answering your ? about him talking to my best friend...he didn't admit anything to her. Never admitted to anyone. then again, who would he admit to? He just answered her ?s with a ?, or repeating what she would say. don't think it mattered that she called, but then again...who knows. all it shows to me is how much she cares for me, and how hurt she is over is mistreating of me and Jay. How can that be bad? He knows that her intentions were for the good...how could he not?

Thanks for checking in on me CJ! Not too many people on the Plan A board. Just so you know...health is better, hearts beating (i think, unless i'm dead)...but much better! thanks for checking!

thanks again for the post! just what i needed!

Just for fun...i asked Jay about the Todd thing again. Hehe! goofy little thing. He told me Todd lives up there (pointing to the sky) and said...mom..he holds the rain in his hands and pours it out...thats when it rains! (im kinda freaking at this point...thinking okay...does he think God is "todd"? knowing better because he speaks of God all the time but still???) he said ...you can't see him mom...but i can! My son...??? Kinda freaky huh? Maybe God's name is Todd? hmmm?

and by the way....you made me feel so much better, but i could kill you....really CJ...i didn't need the song to linger in my head this long!!!uhhh! Maybe if it were a Rob Thomas version...Hmmmm...!

take care! JM

Yes...the song...that was the point EXACTLY!!!!

I gave you something else to worry about, haha. A distraction, maybe. Annoying? Certainly. I didn't know if it would work. I wanted to make a point about the power of suggestion, what are you suggesting to yourself these days?

So, this is YOUR mind playing the song over and over. Yours. Within you. Within your control.

Waddaya gonna do about it?! Can you play a different song in your head that you LIKE!? How about "Push"? (Hmm...don't listen to THESE lyrics too closely, not real uplifting...defiant though...what else? The tune w/Santana?)

Can you apply this to other aspects of your life?

Sorry to play with your mind, I have a need these days to project my own mind's sorry state, I guess...I apologize. I AM trying to help...

haha, I know I'm outside of your "killing radius"!! Good thing...

Todd/God, interesting. However this played out, maybe God stepped in to add some jealousy? Or just stepped in to mix things up? We don't know. I don't think Jay "lied" about it, it was his reality, so was seeing OW. Your H KNOWS. He knows Jay witnessed and got the car color right. No need to worry, those things could have been avoided through your H's actions; outside of your circle of control. Let him WORRY about it. And he is. 'Cuz he HAD to ask you. Nice.

Take care, gotta go...now if I could just get this darn song outta my head!!!!!!!!

"Don't just stand there, say nice things to me...I've been cheated, i've been wronged"

CEEEJJJ!!! i wasn't thinking about "Push"...I'm fired up now! whew...Move out of my way...got the controlling thing going on in my mental mind right now!

Heck don't apologize for playing with my mind...its in the same state as your mind remember. No apologizes!!!

I need to catch up on your thread a bit more, so have you exposed? Good luck if not. Hope you have better luck than i did. Mine would've been better if i had more to expose in the beginning. Like exposing to her work, friends, instead of just the H. She got off free. Her kids have been spared. Work same for her...her sister works there...(just found out), nothing had to change for OW except she had to cry a bit and play her H up a bit to cover it up.

Ah-well....it will all come crashing down soon! somehow, someway...it won't hide forever and she will have to pay at some point!

shame your outside of my killing radius!! At least Jay and i would have something fun to do on the weekends...we could listen to your band! well...only if it isn't something icky like polka or something!! HA!!!!

Any way...Good luck on the exposure thing!!!! Pray hard...let God in control!!!!

within my control, switching songs....gotta get out of the bitter stage before heading home...hmm..."ever the same" yep that will work!

check up on you later! JM

Oh no,

I didn't mean to get you fired up...I'm not helping the way you need...sorry.

Just trying to help you get happy from within, not to look on the outside, from your H, from what he is doing, y'know? You might not find your happiness there, b/c of your expectations. Just take the things with your H that you need, I mean there ARE some great things about your relationship, filter out the bad. But your expectations of what an H is is different than how he is right now. I'm not saying ignore, just be careful about what you are repeating to yourself, over and over, in your mind. Repeating the wrong things hurts. It was helping me. Helped me know that no matter what, I was doing what was good for me, and I'm proud of that, and no one can take it away...

I do hope I didn't make you bitter, I hope that you were bitter already,(well, I wish you never have to be bitter, but...) and hopefully these are some tools to help with this?

I KNOW I'm bitter, but I think it helps me stay AWARE, and stay focused, helps me know who I am, and what I believe in... I can choose NOT to be, helps when I have the right self-talk...

Yeah I should have rolled around ALL the "push" lyrics in my head b4 bringing that up, oops.

how about something happier, "Rubber duckie" from Sesame Street? Baths r fun, yeah, and rubber duckies are fun, yeah, mental, i know, I'll go get a CATscan...

CJ-my friend....you are going to have to stop taking me so seriously!!!

I have laughed my butt off today!!! i have had a good day!!
Being fired up...thats a good thing! means i'm not rolling around feeling sorry for myself, nope means i am taking control! Understand...this chick has a very dry sense of humor also!!! I guess i don't realize that you guys may not know i am joking most of the time...sorry! I'll make myself a bit more clear next time!!!!

You most definitely do help~~~ please don't take me the wrong way!!! and you make me bitter, heck no! I'm always bitter...its who i am (you see...there i go again...being silly....)

strange as it may sound/be....i have had more people say to me..."how do you stay so sane?" " i don't know how you function...how you work, live...i would go nuts"

BY THE GRACE OF GOD! i love my H with all my heart...and this has been the worst thing i have ever had to face in my entire 33 years, but i have learned so much about myself, my son, my friends, family and mostly grown spiritually. I haven't given up on life, wanted to at times, still do...but i still laugh, go out with friends...this isn't going to kill me. Romans 8:28 ....you know!!!

But i'm really worried that you think i am REALLY bitter and that you have said or done things to push me over the edge...oh please don't, that's only my crazy humor talking...i forget that you guys can't hear it in my head...only read it!! And the "push" lyrics...didn't bother me a bit! sat at my desk...singing, carrying on...

can never go wrong with any Rob song!!!

and oh my gosh....RUBBER DUCKIE...was my fav!!!! Rubber duckie i'm totally fond of yooouuu!!!!

Jay's not big on the ol' Sesame Street. Nope..."moma that's for babies" he's into..well right now he's watching H's old pink panther cartoon's....from when we were kids. H just bought the box set last week. Jake has watched it about 10 times already!!

CJ sorry if i made you feel like you had pissed me off. didn't mean too! You have been so kind and helpful!

hope you have a great evening! check in on you tomorrow...after your CAT scan! ha!

JM

See how much I know about women? No wonder I'm in such a mess...heh, heh! Thank you for being you!

I need to stop taking myself so seriously too, it's just that I know ourselves and so many others here are on the emotional roller coaster...I know how easy some days it's easy to push me over the proverbial "edge".



I thought we WERE nuts! People don't know how they'd react 'til they're here, but they're right on with the "nuts". It's like already having hives and bathing in strawberries and eating bee pollen...

I've had a LOT of people tell me the same, I don't how it's done, it just is...what choice do we have when our values are involved?


You are NOT sane. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You use the word "crazy" more than anyone I've known. Oh yeah, and "mental". I'm not sane either. I'm starting to LIKE IT! or not. i mean yes. i mean...what was i talking about? Hey, where...am...i? Ooo, i like this...DESK!



I WAS worried. Nobody's fault. "I almost lost my COOLLL there" (from "The Grinch" w/Jim Carey)

So I had my cat scanned and they tell me she's fine. Strangely, I'm still worried about ME though...



So we're babies, eh?! I...am...NOT! You can't make me! (sniff)

Good grief, can you tell I'm tired? Last night was cool, we (band) played in Regina, Saskatchewan. (we are all from Saskatoon, look it up, I like tellin people from the US these names 'cuz they usually find them funny) We played the "Brier", HUGE curling tourney. ( <a href="www.curling.ca/fan_central/brier/2006/index.asp" target="_blank">www.curling.ca/fan_central/brier/2006/index.asp</a> )

2 years ago we won a bands wars contest (called Brier Idol, you can imagine how this idea started...) and we got to open for Blue Rodeo. (edit: at the Brier, that is) THAT was WAY cooler than last night...

Anyway, we played the purple hearts lounge, REALLY laid back, kinda not exciting, but it was cool, all the gear was there, only played for an hour and a bit, made $1750. (what's that...about $4 US?) But we didn't get home 'til about 3am. (like the Rob song, except...not)

Oh here's something to check out for kicks... http://www.longshotmusic.ca/

Which one am I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (hint, I have hair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

l8r

I have to say(from a WS point of view) that once I decided to step out of the marraige, I pretty much justified myself and guilt was not a factor. I honestly dont think guilt plays a factor in it until you loose everything and see the damage that your actions have caused the people around you.

The WS lies about everything. The more time you can spend with OM/OW is the only thing that is on your mind.
They will give you false hope at every turn.

If you are doing a plan A or B, they will compromise it at every turn and make you look like the one who is doing wrong.

Advice: If you are compromising the plan A or B at all, it WILL NOT WORK..I guess if H has been stern with it all I would have, we would have ended this thing long ago. I think because H himself was lying it would have never worked.

Be Careful..Listen to what your heart tells you.
I promise you it is almost always right.

Be firm with the NO CONTACT letter and when that is not being followed, put your foot down. This will hurt but in the long run, it will end up saving you from months, maybe years of pain and conflict.

We do come out of the fog eventually but alot of times it is to late.

CJ--your not playing fair, so are you saying you really are the one without hair or one of the guys with?

liked the site, and the song on the home page! Pretty cool!!!your the most famous person i've known but don't know! Heehee!

anji2you, thank you so much for the post...i have so wanted a WS point of view for soooooo long! this plan A i have going on just seems so drawn out.

i'll just be honest...its so scarry to think if you do something you will lose everything you had for well...12 years! any other advice???

gotta go guys...the patients just keep coming but not leaving!!

CJ---don't have a clue even how to pronounce where you live...but...it sounds cool!!! i'll have to look it up later!

check back in a bit! JM

I don't understand...no sarcasm or deception...

I really do have hair! I'm far from famous...

Just like they sound:

Saskatoon --> SAS-KA-TUNE (we have saskatoon berries here too, and they make great pie! Kinda like blueberries... really.)

Saskatchewan --> SAS-KAT-CHOO-WON

anji2you...nice hear your perspective, I think you have a valid point about consequences, JM and I are both struggling with how to do this without doing too much damage. I'm starting to think that some type of move is necessary, and let the cards fall where they may...

anji2you, I checked some of your old posts (lucidity), wow, you've been through everything! Hope things are better...hope your boys are doing well...

JM already exposed, it didn't have the desired impact...

CJ

I'm drained today guys. whew.

H just left. Jay and i are just hanging out. Its weird you know. H leaves says...see you all tomorrow. He was kinda quiet tonight. sitting here thinking to myself...how long will he be "happy" with this? I don't understand.

Left his family because....well...he never said why. Then about 2 weeks after leaving i got the ILYBNILWY speech....(only once...never has said it again...especially when i told him...NICE JOHN...glad SHE convinced you that....)oh...anyway...looking back at the timeline...its just weird.

I think back thru our M, my H has always been SO jealous. SO very jealous! the guy i dated before my H...he and i were fairly serious, he called me a few times after my H and i started dating...we remained friends for a while...i was always honest with my H about it...but it drove him nuts!!! A couple of years ago...that guy was killed. He was a highway patrolman and was hit by a semi, anyway...my friends called to tell me, then mom, dad, etc...SEVERAL people called to tell me what had happended...it was very tragic. My H got so mad because of it. jealous over a dead man who was married himself and had a child. Mad because he thought "too many people were calling to tell me, he thought it wasn't right..." the people who called all knew him when i dated him...they all knew him well...were sad about it....He flipped out...over a dead guy.

and now...i'm just here...alone...with my son. Just us. Lonely. becoming more lonely by the day. Missing affection. Missing being loved.

he enjoys being with us...but he doesn't seem interested in me physically at all. sometimes he flinches if i touch him. this man got wound up if i brushed my hair a certain way...i just don't get it. He sometimes wants to sneak a peek then acts pissed if he does. I don't get it. Maybe i should be glad i guess. At least he won't do me and her at the same time...

I am just tiring again.

rambling tonight...sorry.

CJ...i've seen the little curling thingy on TV when i have been flippin' around and i don't get it. Not that i sit and watch it...i just flip by it...its kinda strange lookin'
i like baseball. Atlanta Braves!!

and i'm sorry...but how you 'spose to know which one you are in the band...none of you are holdin' an instrument. there's no pics by your name....so how could i guess which one you are...? but i'll throw out a guess. 2nd guy from left in pic at top of the page??? did i win????

yes you are famous...dang it...cause i said. I've never known anyone famous...don't blow this for me....makes me feel like i'm important!!! ha...

gotta go...Jay's chasin' the cats around the house with a lotion bottle...keeps screaming at them that they need "sunscreen"...i've just been sittin' back watching for a minute...better step in now...the fat one looks like she might have a heart attack!

Later guys! JM