MSA,

just a quick note. I have some more info. I saw OWH, not in person, just in researching, and he is NOT anything to write home about, poor thing. But oh my gosh...he is LOADED.

OW is NOT, repeat, NOT attractive. Now i am no barbie...and i am not tooting my own horn or anything, but let me put it straight....if i were going to leave my wife of 10 years who IS attractive, and a happy marriage, my wonderful son...i definitly would want a trophy out of it...SHE'S NO TROPHY...not at all. She's old, wears braces...obviously going through a mid life crisis...my H is HER trophy...except he is broke...and her H is well...loaded.

I still have no physical proof and i am still waiting on God to tell me what to do...but i have told him a few thing...just keep praying for me....any advice????


please...what is he doing....what is the attraction? why is he still doing it? for the money...thats my guess...for what she is telling him? she won't leave her H will she? not with him being so wealthy...HE is the one who is making the money. My H is looking at bankruptcy.

Help! what should i do? JAYSMOM

Jaysmom,
First off, are you SURE it's her? Are you just going by the name being the same and the fact that she works at one of the stores? Do you have ANY more evidence that this is the OW for sure? I know there IS an OW, but is this certainly her?

As far as her appearance, the OW in my sitch was not at all pretty. Relatively unattractive I would say, with an atrocious personality and NO girlfriends at all. You know, it's ALL about how OW makes your H feel. She must make him FEEL like the greatest thing... perhaps being less than attractive herself, she just thinks he is the bee's knees. And she tells him. I know the OW in our sitch was extremely complimentary to my H, about his looks, his intelligence, really made him feel good about himself. He said that he was highly susceptible to it and it was very addicting and attractive. She herself also had plenty of money, whereas we have lots of money and lots of bills! She didn't have the bills, just the money. Fun trips, expensive gifts. At one point when she took him to the Bahamas on a cruise I asked him if he felt like a gigilo. He said no, but...

I don't think OW will leave her H. I think your concern for their family is from the heart, but I think it is a mistake to think that her H being kept in the dark is good for their family. Expose, and let them iron out their own problems for better or worse. It is the TRUTH. (well, make sure it is first!). Her H has a right to know the TRUTH. Would you want to be told if the sitch were reversed?

In a situation I am aware of where OWH called OMW and exposed, both marriages are now hopefully seeming to be on the mend... at least the A is over and they are trying. Exposure ended the affair in fast order when OMW found out.

He is still doing it because of how she makes him FEEL, the money doesn't hurt, but it's probably more about the addictive feelings of the affair. I doubt she will leave her H. True, he MAY leave her if he finds out (OWH). That would free her up for your H.

Pray about it. This is just my two cents...

One quote (can't remember who by) that got me through some rough times, "If a woman steals your man, the best revenge is to let her keep him." Not a Christian sentiment, but I hope it makes you smile anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSA

MSA,

yes...i am 99% sure. God keeps giving me more and more as the days go. Although i don't think i have enough to give OWH to convince him. I am afraid if i go with all i have physical (phone records) he will confront her and she will cover and nothing will change.

H is becoming paranoid right now. Yes i believe you are right about the attraction...it's what she is saying...she herself told me she was telling him "wow...you look sooo good" things like that.

we got into a heated discussion last night...HE KNOWS I KNOW now without doubts. He knew before i knew what he was doing...now he know i know who with. I didn't give any names, or specifics...i am smarter than that. I prayed before we talked and what came out was what God wanted me to tell him.

Now for the first time ever...he is faced with...what do i really, really do? before...he just thought he could keep up the two. weigh them out...i'll go w/OW if she leaves maybe...maybe i'll stay with W. Hmm...lets see how i feel today.

but now he is faced with...W knows who...i must end it with OW to keep W. to keep OWH from finding out. Reality.

all this time...i think down deep i knew...me leaving wasn't going to solve anything. It wasn't going to be the push he needed. He needed something to scare him...really scare him to reality. if i left...he knew...i would probably come back when/if he called. that wasn't what had to be done.

he has been afraid of losing me. you've been right from the start. CONFUSED!!!!

he has recently started lying to Jake again, promises broken, staying out alot again, not keeping him hardly at all. this started about 2 weeks ago, same time as when he stopped calling me, staying out again.

Last night i broke down in front of him...can't even tell you why, honestly. I cried and cried...then later...God told me...what i knew...my H has always been torn into when i cry. When i am strong and firm..works sometimes, but he gets very defensive. when i am broken...due to him, especially...he can't handle it. God needed him to see me broken...at his hands. He didn't handle it well at all. He had told me before our M was over due to money, now he isn't at all blaming me for the money...last night (before i started crying) he said he was tired of me...

i said tired of me...i have been tired of you plenty of times in 11 years but did not walk away...i asked him if he was tired of jay too? was that why he didn't want to be with him...He continued to get mad...then i broke down.

tore him up...as we in the south would say. HA! he followed me through the house. standing at the corner of the bed...speechless for a while. then told me he only told me he was tired of me because i was getting on him...he said it was out of anger.

i just simply told him before he left...that he knew what must be done. he knew it had to end. I asked him if he believed in God, he answered yes, then i said you know the bible better than most anyone i know...he said yes, i do...i said well... he didn't respond.

Haven't heard from him this morning. we will see what happens. Keep us in prayer. Things are drawing to an end...end of something...either our M, or the A. I will go to OWH. soon...so i know something will happen. Sad this time of year. I wait on God to advise me.

thank you for your words of encouragement...keep it coming..

jaysmom

Have you spoken to her about your WH before? When was this, I'm confused...? Do you KNOW her? Does she KNOW you?

Cell phone records are good, but not incriminating enough for OWH maybe, depends on the guy. My H wouldn't be too fond of finding my cell phone bill reflected hours of calls to a guy I never told him about, but I guess maybe she can get him to rationalize it if she tries. Depends on the guy, on his prior experiences and his ability to live with realities that don't coincide too well.

I think you are doing a good job. I had breakdowns in front of my WH. When I found out who OW was (I never would have guessed his boss in a billion trillion years), when I found out OW was pregnant, when I had to listen to him choose her over & over again, there were certainly times that I let my feelings show to him. Lots of the time I was numb. Often I was in a complete stupor over listening to him rationalize and sit on the fence about something that seemed so painfully obvious to me & others. I learned during those months that the human brain knows NO BOUNDS when it comes to rationalizing behavior. Helps explain things like the Holocaust. I don't mean that in even the slightest disrespectful way, I mean it sincerely. It is a similar mindset that just fogs over and blanks out reality, justifies the actions, avoids responsibility, won't stand up & do the right thing.

The thing I would warn you of again though is that it does little good to point that out to a WS I think. Your best defense is a good offense - exposure and the threat that you are going to one day wake up & have lost your patience and indeed your love for him.

I think in a way that pointing out the Biblical issues, and so forth, that that comes across to the WS as a disrespectful judgement. "Can't you see that you need to see things my way, you have it ALL WRONG." Know what I mean? I did a lot of it, but in hindsight that is not what saved our marriage. It was my actions, the result of his indecision, that finally brought things to a head. People were preaching at him left & right, I'm not sure it did that much good.

Me saying I would move on and I was gathering my self-respect and confidence, feeling that things would ultimately be okay, I can't take his indecision any longer, and I now feel that if I just give myself some time I will be happy again, with someone... THAT worked I think. I still don't know if FWH sees the degree that impacted him; but one could visibly see the cogs turning during the aftermath of those discussions.

You are doing a good job. Really, the exposure to OWH sounds like the next step - can you expose the A at their workplace to human resources or a mutual boss as well?

MSA

MSA,

yes i have spoken to OW. The day i found out he was talking to her on his cell, i called to get the last # dialed and called her. The day he left. She of course told me..."we are only friends...blah blah," then i got the cell records and their friendship was over 800 mins the month of August. I also spoke with her one other time...she of course lied...saying oh it's nothing like that we are friends only. Talked alot of her H. i guess she did that to cover. As far as OWH and the phone records, i just don't know if it is enough...this is a woman who is very spoiled by him, he is not an attractive man, God love him, and i feel it wouldn't be enough...given the way she is treated, he probably would believe anything she said, plus i don't feel God telling me to do it just yet...waiting on a little more. My BF goes out armed with her camera...she will catch them or die!!! HA!

the exposing to work...my H is a vendor...he works several stops...most everyone at his work, he hardly see's, they are very much independent. Most of the guys...suspect, a couple know...but he denies it to them. He would deny it if he were caught in the act with her i believe. sometimes i think...he doesn't believe he is. As far as her job...i don't know...i just don't feel right. She would possibly get fired and i just hate feeling like i was the cause, especially since i don't have much physical evidence...they have to know at her work as well...they at least suspect...it's gone on too long to not...of course, she is a MAJOR flirt, so maybe they don't.

she gave me a fake last name (her maiden). My BF has really done her detective work...she has found out everything for me. without my WH or OW ever knowing. This woman has actually been preying on my H for a while. He would say things about her to me, in the past, she works at one of his stops...but i know before there was nothing going on...i just remember that he spoke of her.

OWH is the money maker. Maybe she is promising my WH that she will leave and get him everything he ever desired. See we were so in the hole when all of this started...it all makes sense now. My H as i have said in past, suffers from severe depression, and has been off medication for about 3 years, doing well, until....life gets bad. He was down, and she was there to pick him up. We were struggling over the debt, not knowing what to do.

He needed an escape. Escape from reality. Escape from HIS life. Escape from the depression, but in turn he has created more problems, more depression and reality is still there waiting to be faced.

He is more miserable right now than he has been in the 3 months he has been gone, more miserable now than he was when he was only facing the debt problem not adding the A to it. He is totally miserable.

He has pulled away...away from me, and jay, but i believe it is a good thing. This time his misery, and his staying away i feel God is saying...he is dealing with it. He is finally getting closer to reality. I think things are hitting him very hard. VERY HARD. i can sense it, and read it on his face, in his voice. We still see each other daily, and talk daily...but not as much. We see each other more than we did when he was calling alot. Now i feel he was calling so much, to ease his mind.

Now he isn't calling as much, because he is ashamed. A portion of reality has crept in...and keeps coming...and he is having to deal with it.

I spoke with my pastors wife at church today and she has advised me to be tough. "make sure he knows you are not going to stand for what he is doing" Well...i thought i have been, but as you have said, you get so down sometimes, you don't know anything. I know what i have been doing is what God has lead me to do....i pray, continuously. He is answering and is dealing with my H.

Now i must ride the storm as you have also said. Right now i have much peace. Now, as you have said before, i need to just sit back and watch. He is in the eye of the storm. He knows...things must change, and they must change soon, or he will lose me. And it may take, losing me before he will change and at that point...????

i wish i had more to expose, but i wait on God. Since i have dropped a few hints lately, he has gotten more depressed. I think its because...he always knew i would be right there. I mean come on, we are not living together, but beside each other, still seeing each other everyday. Nothing has changed for him since he left. His wife and son, right there for him when he wants them, having his A on the side...without having to deal or decide anything. Nothing rocking his world. Nothing making him decide or face anything. NOTHING!! only me talking to him, trying to get him to....but all this time, he knew...i was right there. Until i am not, or things change (like me knowing who she is...) he doesn't have to do anything.

Please continue your prayer...i so appreciate it and your advice, you taking time to read my trillion pages...I am being faced now with some major decisions...Pray God will continue to show me, and guide me...

Jaysmom

Jaysmom, I think you have handled this all very similarly to the way I did. I didn't expose at WH's work, or to OWH, and things still worked out. BUT, I wish I could go back and do it over (well, you know what I mean, no one wants to relive it! but there are things I would change). Namely, exposing to OWH. In our case, OW told her H because she thought she was leaving him for my H. He called my H her "hobby." But if I had established regular contact with OWH it would have put an end to lots of lies that she told my H and their mutual boss.

Pray about exposing. I know you don't want to get anyone in trouble; you don't want OW to lose her job? You don't want her to have serious consequences from her actions? This isn't about revenge, it's about doing things that have the best chance of saving your family. Affairs don't survive well in the light of day. Or so I'm told by more experienced MBers. Of course, OWH finding out, giving an ultimatum to OW and her ending the A doesn't really fix your marriage. He still won't have examined how he got into an A (again) and HE won't have ended it. He can pine away for OW for who knows how long. You keep praying about it.

I hope the holidays are hard as heck on him. I know you want to do things for Jay like Thanksgiving all together, but maybe that is NOT the best reality check for your WH. Perhaps Christmas apart is what needs to happen to contribute to his wake-up call. Think about it and pray about it. I had to make decisions that my girls didn't always like or understand at the moment for the long-term prospects of our family, such as ask him to move out, hospitalize him, and file for divorce. Not easy things, but always done with the greater good in mind.

MSA

I totally agree. i am starting to just get run down and exhausted over this whole mess. He is just going back and forth between, real life and this A. I told him one day a while back...this fantasy will end...trust me honey...this IS real life and it is going to be a horrible wake up one day.

I am not sure what to do anymore, last week God was giving me so much but i feel like i have all of this information in my lap and don't know what to do with it. EVERYONE, my BF to all my other very good friends say the same as you...EXPOSE. Honestly i am not afraid...not afraid of her losing her job at all...in fact i am more willing to call her job, but i don't think it will do any good. thought about calling my H's also...again...they won't do anything. so what is the point? I feel like because nothing will happen to them...i will look like the crazy one.

as far as OWH...i think its not enough evidence. BF says its enough, do it. she said...look what she has done to you and jay. Look how she has turned your lives upside down for her selfish desires, she shouldn't be able to get away with it. she never intended on leaving her H, and i think my H always planned on eventually coming home.

I keep praying, but i feel lost again. i pray all the time. yes i wanted my H to end this A, because he knew he loved me and hated himself for what he is doing. Mentally though, i just don't know if he is capable. He still doesn't see jacob much at all. He was doing so good there for a while, makes me wonder if OW was on long vacation with her H or something...could be.

He has ran into 3 of my family members this weekend, one he just passed on the road and he didn't wave at him, freaked him out. the other 2 didn't speak (one is a teenager that wouldn't speak to me either out in public) but he is so paranoid. I asked him why it bothered him so bad, he said it didn't but i know it does.

He came down to the house last night, just showed up, bringing some groceries etc. (guilt i guess) stayed for a long time. we just talked like normal. i didn't say much at all. didn't say anything about us at all. he did some things around the house then left. called this morning, talking like normal again. this is just exhausting to me. i want to say just Pee or get off the pot. pardon the expression.

my BF just called...again...go to the OWH. she is so insisting. she has done alot of work...i just don't feel like i have enough. i feel like what would happen would be, she would get out of it some way and they would still be able to continue their fling.

He told me again the other night he was messed up in the head. hasn't said that in a LONG time. makes me think he is at least part of the time...thinking about things.

MSA...any advice on what to do? should i just bite the bullet with what i have and do it. I think well if the last name she gave me is her maiden...how many people would know that...? so maybe he would buy it then, with the phone records. who knows? i feel like there is something there so simple and in front of my face but i keep over looking it.

Keep me in your prayers...i do appreciate it....i'll let you know what i decide if anything. maybe just sit and watch for a while longer...his being so paranoid may really get to him...Jaysmom

I told my FWH that you didn't think you had enough evidence to go to OWH. His response? "You never know what's going on in their marriage, a call from Jaysmom could be the final piece to a big puzzle for him." So, there you have it... my H thinks it's likely that OWH has put enough clues together that this could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

And if nothing happens to them at work, at least they can't continue their adulterous affair in broad daylight, with the whole world acting like they're keeping it from you for your peace of mind. That made me mad, that no one in my H's office saw fit to tell me. Not that I knew them, but even an anonymous note WOULD have been nice to tip me off. I understand their position (the co-workers) but it makes me a little batty to think that everyone knew about it, thought I didn't, and figured we had a terrible disintegrating marriage anyway (which is what he implied to all his friends & family) - untrue! Our marriage was not perfect, but it was NOT falling apart before OW entered the picture either! We were and always have been best friends for 15 years almost, even in the worst of times in our relationship.

I think your WH is cake-eating completely, and hanging out trying to get a read on what you know and what you plan to do with the information.

Him sitting around your house getting his emotional need for companionship and conversation met by you while carrying on this A and abandoning his family makes me crazy. I can see why you are exhausted from it. Anyone would be. Talk about giving and getting NOTHING in return! You better not be pouring his coffee for him during these visits!!! Let me guess, in his favorite mug that you keep in the cupboard for when he comes over? I'm going insane, say it isn't so Jaysmom!!!!!

Pray pray pray, and listen to your wise friends!

MSA

Oh i needed that good laugh this morning...I PROMISE YOU!!!! he isn't getting anything from me when he comes over. i don't even get up when he comes in, don't change the TV, mostly ignore him. He's all trying to be GOOD H, and daddy. right.

Now i do talk to him, but i am still very firm. I don't act like nothing is wrong, and i don't pretend to be okay with him. But i know i must act and do something or he will keep eating his cake. He doesn't care that i am hurting or that jay is...but he wants to make sure we are still hanging in there so when he is finished he can run back home.

My BF said exactly what your H did. Trust me i have prayed and will continue. I don't know...i feel like there is something...something...or that i have all i need but the timing isn't quite right. I don't know, can't put my finger on it. Is it okay to go to OWH work...i don't know how else to reach him, for fear she will answer if i call at home. but then again, i don't feel God saying do it right now...but hey...doesn't mean he won't lead me to this afternoon.

My H is becoming very uneasy. VERY!!!!! he wanted to keep jay today, so i took him to h. did my usual "give mommy hugs...etc." told him goodbye...I was no different than usual this morning, but i had not been gone 5 mins. and H calls..."what are you doing? i said...driving...why?" i started laughing because when he called i was directly across from OWH's work. and said to H...why? do you think i might be doing something i shouldn't? He is paranoid. then he proceeded to be super sweet, wanting to come down and watch a movie with me and jay. YUCK!!!!

i had another...heart to heart. I know he hears me, i have said it before, but he doesn't act on it. He is never going to do what he should, until everything he has is gone. i did say to him this morning, don't you care that you lost your family? He didn't respond at all.

i don't know what i am going to do...maybe i will just drop by to see OWH today.. i will listen for God to guide me. He has answered so many prayers and has just lived for me so many days.

my heart is just shutting down for my H. I just don't know if i even want him anymore. truly. i want someone he used to be, that person doesn't exist anymore. i feel like too much time has passed, if my heart is hardening for him, isn't his turning from me too?

eventually reality hits right? does it? even if it is too late, and i don't care or want him anymore, he will wake up and see what he lost and just be sick right? Jay never deserved this. I didn't. But jacob especially. he still chooses this OW over spending time with him, will he ever see that? will he EVER get out of the fog. I have prayed for reality, i pray he is miserable with her, i pray she can't meet any needs he has, i pray CONSTANT.

will we ever see reality? or will he live in this fog forever? will he ever know the extent of our hurt and suffering? will he ever care? the man he use to be would, but the new person?

Oh, i am just going crazy. Please continue to pray for us. my faith weak at times. But i know God will get me through. He will take care of me and Jay.

Jaysmom

So? Did you expose? I see MelodyLane & believer and Orchid posted to you on GQII about it since 12/2/05. Do you know that you can click on your own name on the left of any thread, and click on "Show all user's posts" and see all your threads & posts? This works for any MBer user to search their posts.

So, did you go see OWH? Well???

MSA

No, i didn't go. i went by but i didn't stop. i prayed to whole way there and back but honestly did not feel God leading me to stop. i wasn't afraid. i just didn't feel right.

i didn't allow him to come down and watch the movie, instead he kept jay a little longer at his mom's and watched it with him. He continues to lie and try to cover up things. He brought up himself, something from 2 months ago. When i talked to the guy he worked with, long story, anyway, he tried to claim he was with him when i called, he wasn't...he was at his mothers. i know this isn't making much sense, but what it boils down to is he was still trying to lie about something that he got caught red handed in. He even went as far as to say we will call him then... i said be my guest...

i would love to hear what he has to say...he went got the phone, and i said call him...please...( i was thinking my H has really lost his ever loving mind, and i thought...hey call...this should be interesting conversation at work tomorrow...those guys would die!) anyway...he finally held his head down, acting sad and said no...i am not calling anyone..your right...basically to say...yes i lied.

what is up with him? what is up with that? we actually were not arguing, haven't done that in a while...it's honestly as if he is a child needed to be punished for his wrong, but yet not wanting to be caught. Oh i just don't know...i am going crazy!!!

Is this possibly some of his more mental issues? he did call the dr. yesterday. but he asked about his bill, he was honest and said to me, i was going to make an appointment, but didn't. I just asked why my bill was so much ( honestly he got a 500 bill, and can't pay it up front to be seen) he said they told him they would check on it and he said once i know what i have to do about that i will make the appt. i do believe him that much. His Dr. office makes you pay pretty much up front.

anyway...i honestly feel like i am trying to raise a teenager hooked on drugs or alcohol. But things could be worse. God is getting me through. He is pouring his grace on me or else i would be crazy!!!

I will let you know if i decide, if God leads me to tell soon. Keep us in prayer...I will go when God tells me to go, or maybe i won't have to...maybe OWH will find out soon himself.

Jaysmom

I liked these reminders from the GQII board...

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

http://www.divorcebusting.com./

Mrs. Stow...

hope your doing well today. Things are basically the same, except...Last night He FINALLY got to see our son showing (what i have told him and his mother for weeks) how he feels about the matter.

i have asked him to get the information of counseling for my son, who is struggling so with this situation. He never would, Last night Jacob started hitting himself in the head and really crying hard for his dad in front of him and my mother in law. God really has a way of using anyone, or anything.

H is very, very, VERY troubled and his mom said he has not been sleeping well at all. He told Jay he would go to church with us soon.

I am taking all of this as good, especially his misery!

Please keep praying i so appreciate!

Jaysmom

You know, God can use anything or anyone to turn a WS around, especially the children I think. You know for my FWH it was his dr. who told him of his own A, and ended up re-marrying his W later. Also, Jerry Springer show of all things - FWH saw some really low & trashy guy talking/justifying/rationalizing his affair with his OW, and he (FWH) realized, "I'm saying the same stupid [censored] about my wife and to my wife!" Realizing his adulterous behavior meant he was acting just like the guy on Jerry Springer did him in. At least that was one main thing. And my H doesn't even watch that junk as a rule, just happened to be flipping past it one day... just goes to show you...

You are in my prayers, as are Jay and your WH.

MSA

MSA,

Jerry Springer...wow! I guess he had to be at the point in his life, as well, to accept...he could've been that guy on Springer...God works ALL things good!

Well...this weekend has been a struggle mentally for me. I believe Satan is trying his best to see if i will fall. Praying is becoming so difficult, but i do it, and when i am finished i always feel God's grace on me for being faithful.

I am afraid to be hopeful, but last night my H came down to the house to visit Jacob for a while. Before he came, jay and I were out doing a few shopping things and he called...i just can't put up with his crap anymore (especially during pms). He started saying some mean things to me (of course only after i said something about OW, which he yes...still denies, but ...)I just hung up on him...anyway he had some time to think on what he had said, and came down. when he left...he left with both of his study bibles, and his study book.

again i am afraid to be hopeful..but he has been very different this week, especially after Jay threw his fit. He told me on friday he WAS calling his Dr. on Monday. i told him, i was tired of hearing that same song and dance...and he said very firmly, and strongly...different from all the other times....that he WAS calling.

we will see...but i did notice a much different attitude and have now for 2-3 days. I felt very lead this morning when he called to tell him i loved him, and did and he sounded as if he were choked up. He couldn't say anything much. I told him Jay is still praying for you everyday, he again just kind of mumbled uh-huh.

again..i am afraid to be hopeful, but his misery is much and is getting to him. He didn't have to take his bibles, but he did. He may never open them...but they will be there in case he does.

Thank you for your prayers and advice! I will keep you posted if there are any new turns...

Jaysmom

Jaysmom,
Our whole Sunday message today was on prayer, and when you are in so much pain you can't pray. Psalm 77. How God wants us to be honest with Him, how God knows our thoughts anyway, so asking him why things are the way they are, or has he abandoned us, or ceased to care... those are natural things to feel. Or in your situation as the days roll together with no major changes, requiring the patience of a lifetime, to feel like you don't have anything new to pray for.

[color:"green"] Psalm 77
For the director of music. For Jeduthun. Of Asaph. A psalm.
1 I cried out to God for help;
I cried out to God to hear me.
2 When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;
at night I stretched out untiring hands
and my soul refused to be comforted.

3 I remembered you, O God, and I groaned;
I mused, and my spirit grew faint.
Selah

4 You kept my eyes from closing;
I was too troubled to speak.

5 I thought about the former days,
the years of long ago;

6 I remembered my songs in the night.
My heart mused and my spirit inquired:

7 "Will the Lord reject forever?
Will he never show his favor again?

8 Has his unfailing love vanished forever?
Has his promise failed for all time?

9 Has God forgotten to be merciful?
Has he in anger withheld his compassion?"
Selah

10 Then I thought, "To this I will appeal:
the years of the right hand of the Most High."

11 I will remember the deeds of the LORD;
yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago.

12 I will meditate on all your works
and consider all your mighty deeds.

13 Your ways, O God, are holy.
What god is so great as our God?

14 You are the God who performs miracles;
you display your power among the peoples.

15 With your mighty arm you redeemed your people,
the descendants of Jacob and Joseph.
Selah

16 The waters saw you, O God,
the waters saw you and writhed;
the very depths were convulsed.

17 The clouds poured down water,
the skies resounded with thunder;
your arrows flashed back and forth.

18 Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind,
your lightning lit up the world;
the earth trembled and quaked.

19 Your path led through the sea,
your way through the mighty waters,
though your footprints were not seen.

20 You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
[/color]

Our pastor pointed out that in the first half of the Psalm, through verse 9 the writer is concerned with himself, has God forsaken ME, how can I pray, what about ME. He is without comfort. Then in verse 10-12 he starts to realize this and changes gears. In verse 13 he begins to think about the wonders of WHO God is, how great God is, and talking about His powers and His ways. The reader can feel the peace begin to overtake the writer. Interesting I thought.

"Hope for the Separated" points to this same passage, verse 19, saying "as an adult separated from your spouse, you may feel that you are indeed walking through the sea in the midst of mighty waters and that you cannot see the footprints of God. But I assure you, God is vitally concerned about you and your present state. The words of Jesus, 'Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.' (Matthew 11:28), are direct to you as surely as they were directed to those to whom Jesus spoke. Yes, you are weary from much stress. You are heavy-laden, burdened perhaps with guilt, anger, hostility, and anxiety. You will notice that Jesus does not ask that you lay the burden aside and come to Him, but rather that you just come. He has promised to give rest. He has not asked you to handle your own problems, nor has He promised to take away the problems, but He has promised rest."


I also loved in Chapter 5 to be told what to pray for, since I felt at such a loss. Chapman says, "I believe that you should pray for the specific work of the Holy Spirit in the life of your spouse. You should pray that God will effect a deep sense of guilt for his or her sin; that He will impart a geniune awareness of what it means to be righteous; and an understanding of the reality of judgment to come upon those who do not repent. Such praying is in keeping with what we know to be the work of the Holy Spirit. God will answer that prayer."

And to remember James 5:16b "The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results."

Blessings,
MSA

You don't know how much that meant to me today. Thank You!!!

Well...MSA...yesterday after i got home from church...H came down again, usually he always calls and asks first, but the last couple of times he has just "came home" instead of stopping at his mothers first. He came in to check the heat, etc. (the manly things he likes to do) Jake was asleep. I kept to myself mostly, but he kept coming around me...things tend to be a little strained at first...but i guess that is highly understandable.

He chatted with me...he had been smoking. something he doesn't do...(except 5 years ago...in this same state). In the 11 years i have known him that was his only time. Once he was on his AD's then he stopped that. I figure it's a stress relief for him. He has always used tobacco, until jacob was born and he stopped cold turkey, never picked it up again. this i am not concerned about but it brought us to a laugh and healthy conversation.

He walked around the Christmas tree, looking over it, he has a few collectable Bible ornaments and he mentioned them. He started referring and talking about the bible. My H has always been a very devoted Bible reader... he said...it's the end of days now.

anyway...he kicked around the tree, head down, hands in his pocket like a little boy and said...i guess i am calling the Dr. tomorrow. I said "why?" and he answered the only way he knows how..."because i am a fruitloop"

he then started asking about his BF(who is married to mine)medication and what IT was, and then started asking about what he used that didn't work for him in the past, so he didn't go there again (he had bad reaction to a couple, it took 3-4 tries to get the right one). Anyway ....We will see.

my BFs said that it was hopeful and encouraging to them. he has no other reason to take his bible or call the Dr. of course i am terrified to have any hope what so ever!!!! But i don't have that knife in the gut feeling as i did in the beginning when God showed me and spoke to me about what he was doing.

I guess i have just come to that point where nothing can be hopeful until results are seen.

I had a few questions for you, you amaze me at how you got through...with another child? that had to be tough. Did your H tell you he loved you the whole time he was gone? Did he gradually come around, or was it all at once, overnight difference in him? I know you said he suffered with depression also, was that a large part of it to begin with, or mainly to end? Just curious!!!!

I pray God blesses you and your H, family, daily! Your words are so kind, and SOOOOO much help so many days!!!

Please keep praying, we are progressing...you were right, holidays....tough on him. He plans on being at home Christmas...he said he would be there when jay saw his Santa. I didn't know what to say, i was shocked, and i said, you planning on staying on the couch? he said...kind of stunned "i don't know?"

I do want him there, for jay, but also it will be hard for him to be there for jay, and ME! i am scared MSA...very scared. I worry he might jab the knife in again, and i just don't think i am strong enough to take anymore, especially without total honesty, which i don't have from him.

i have made out a list, contract so to speak, he must comply with it...(its what we discussed before) i just don't know when to give it to him.

talk to you soon! Jaysmom

Hey, I'm glad they spoke to you, from God's hand to your heart... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


He should check out Malachi 2:13-16... and Malachi 3:5
Oh, heavens! He better hope not (in his current state!!!)

Hey, at least he's honest! No, seriously, he needs help - I hope he DID call today!!!

You are fortunate to have the open communication with his friend & your friend being married - this worked well for us during our trials - "the team up" or whatever it was!


It stunk. We have No Contact with OW or OC at this point. However, just knowing OC is out there is a challenge. It has been hard. HOWEVER, I was blessed to have people in my life that showed me that recovery is a real possibility, and it doesn't need to mean that I have no self-respect. I realized that God wants great things from us and our marriage, and as parents, and that He would make forgiveness and recovery possible for us if we relied on Him and put Him first in our marriage. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. I didn't always do that, but now when things seem hard I remember that this life isn't about me and my husband - it's about me & God and him & God. Someday he will be accountable for the things he did/does, I will be, you will be, we all will be. That gets me back to focusing on the log in my own eye.


Oh, no way! I got the ILYBINILWY speech from the get go. (I think you know the one... if you think about it! "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." No he was on the fence all the time. He really felt he was in love with OW. It was immensely difficult to listen to him justify choosing her over & over to me. I should never have listened to all that. So incredibly gut-wrenching. Our separation began with him denying there was an OW. He simply pointed to the 1,000 ways that I had ruined our M. (D-day #1 6-7-04) Then he admitted there was "someone else" (around 7-5-04); then I found out the "someone else" was his boss (Ugh); then we had a good talk one night and he could see I was changing (inadvertent Plan A analysis on my part) and the minute he told her he might want to work on his marriage she said she was pregnant. At the time that was a lie, but it put us both in a complete bawling tailspin. On the plus side, that was the first day we ever PRAYED together, I mean PRAYED HARD, bawling, together - even though it was a disaster.

No, everything with my H is intense, so of course he was in the Bahamas with her right after I had given a quasi-Plan B speech ("I guess it's over then, we don't need to talk about all the ways I failed you in our marriage anymore.") and he called the house at 12:30am my time woke me up, etc and we talked for hours. He broke up with OW in the middle of the night, called me at 6am and asked if he could come home. I was on my knees in gratitude to God for what I and so many others had prayed for for so long (well, 2 months, seemed so long...) He flew home (yup, with OW pis*ed the whole way) and moved home that night. Our kids were delighted. Things were going okay, but we hadn't found MB, and we didn't know the VITAL importance of NC, and got scared about $ and figured he should just LOOK for another job, but stay at work until he found one.
Well, it was only 2 months and the A relapsed, and they had to take a business trip together (!) which we prayed about & everything before, I trusted him so much, and that's when she probably got pg for real. I found out almost a year ago, 12/17/04, and we suffered thru the holidays for the sake of the family/kids/relatives. I only told one person for the next 2 weeks or so. H didn't want to tell anyone.

Yes, he was depressed in 2/04, right before the A really started. It wasn't really even an EA at that point, although OW had a predatory stance toward my H, but I didn't really realize it because she was married and had 3 children under age 4 with her H. I read a book on Low Self-Esteem that I thought described H to a tee, tried to get him to talk, tried to get him help. He went to the dr in 4/04 and got put on AD's, which I had not been supportive of in the past (he had an addictive history) but this time I was supportive.
His anger mgmt issues/depression lifted immediately. I mean THAT NIGHT I said to him (5 hrs after first AD pill) "Who are you?" he was so calm and relaxed. We laughed about it. But in a few more weeks his personality seemed so different, and I found out in hindsight that he started the EA in Feb/Mar/Apr 04, and the PA in 5/04.

So, how much personality change was from the ADs and how much from the A? Who knows. I think one reinforced the other - feeling good again after feeling so bad, feeling young, alive, romantic (toward OW, not me)... he just got all caught up in the fog. As you know, the books I read helped me through that rough time. I wish I would have known about MB, because I would have exposed to OWH and at work, but I didn't.

Also, after the relapse was admitted to, he became exceedingly depressed. Indeed suicidal. It was extremely difficult - I won't go into the details, but it was impossibly hard. I didn't dare let him out of my sight, all the while we had an "arrangement" that he would stay in the house for the kid's sake thru the holidays until we could figure out what to do. It was incredibly difficult. Very very scary. I never knew if I was going to find him dead downstairs. It was awful. He was hospitalized for depression in 1/05 for 3 days... it was very very bad. He just felt that he had really screwed things up beyond all hope - and he probably had, except that God is the God of the impossible!


I want him there for you guys too, the RIGHT, LASTING way with the best odds at recovery!

you read my mind!

when he says he wants to come home/ work on the marriage / go into counseling / is crying on his knees for another chance / any of the above!

Blessings!
MSA

MSA,

just a quick note...he did make an appointment, or so he said ( i honestly don't know at this point why he would lie). his appt. is tomorrow, cross your fingers.

i am praying really hard that his Dr. will give him what he needs, and that he will be HONEST with her about things. i feel like if he would be honest with her, it might break down the barrier and open him up to being able to be honest with me, sooner.

He also said in a round about way last night that he was doing it for us. He didn't come out and say it, but he did it the best he could, at his present state. My BF was shocked he could do that. He still doesn't talk about us, but i know thats okay, he isn't able right now.

I will let you know what i find out tomorrow. Please pray!!!

Jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom,
I just have to say that I reread some of your oldest posts, and in them you say that 5 years ago when this happened your H didn't tell you because he thought you would leave him, that he COULDN'T be honest. Keep that in mind going forward, that when he does want to be honest it will be very scary for him. Breathe. Listen. React later. Collect the information as he is willing to give it, don't shut him down by getting angry or interrupting. Then you can cry and digest it, and react later. Thank him for sharing, and leave it at that.

I don't know, just rambling thoughts I feel I'm being told to tell you; not even my words and I don't even know what they mean to you, I just feel led to say those things. You can tell me if I'm way off base.

What does he need to be honest with OW about? His feelings for you & Jay? His intentions? His feelings for OW? His depression history?

Let me know how it goes...
MSA