Glad i could make you feel somewhat better! I so know what you mean about this crap! whew! And i thought i was the ONLY one who thought that everyone thought I was the problem. I am the bad guy. I caused this.

everyday i feel like i'm fighting a losing battle. I hope the 180 goes well for you. I don't know that it does any good for me. I've tried to explain my sitch to everyone best i could but its hard to pinpoint everything. Everyday he is here. If i go to the bedroom, stay to myself...only answer his ?'s....well frankly...i get the "whats wrong with you...why are you so grumpy?" I don't act angry or mad...but everything i do backfires on me...so why wouldn't the 180????

I promise you one thing...she isn't sleeping well because of the guilt...yes sir! Sin looks pretty and inviting at first but once you take a bite...its just sin. Nothing okay about it. God hates it. It isn't going so smoothly for her now!

so in answer to your ? how do i keep this up? God. plain and simple. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for God. for the first 2 or 3 months God lived for me. Drove my car, worked, took care of my son...lived completely for me. I stayed on my face in prayer constantly. Going to the bathroom at work several times a day just to pray. Praying as i walked down the hall....praying while the patient i was with was taking a thousand years to answer my ?s, praying every chance i could. if not for my faith in God...i wouldn't be alive. Not for a second trip down this hard road...with a little boy in tow. No way.

Yes i do wonder everyday what it means? i ? God everyday...as to why i am here AGAIN??? i get angry with God too and cry and scream and ask Him why didn't he end our M 6 years ago...before Jay. so i could save my son from going thru something i never wanted him to endure. Why i couldn't have moved on from that point and married someone else that wouldn't do this to Jay. But God's ways aren't always our ways...and his timing isn't our timing...I can tell you this...He wants your M more than you do, he loves your W, girls, and you more than anything...and yes there is a reason for it...we just may not know what it is for a long time...just remember and read...Romans 8:28..that holds me together everyday! Know that as long as we do as God would have us to...in the end...ALL things can work together for good!!!!

Yes it was afterwards when he told me about his lying in bed at night crying. I didn't know about the A when he left. He left just like this time...claiming this, that, and the other...all my fault. Went and stayed at his moms. We didn't speak for 1 week. I didn't know anything. Nothing. we had no cell back then...nothing for me to trace...i was just so young and stupid...he told me not to talk to him and i was so shocked and scared i wanted to save our M so i just did as he asked. he called me. he was gone 3 months. after about 1 month of his being mean and controlling...he started easing back to his old self some. EASING but still a billion miles away...i thought it was just the depression. He went to the Dr. got on ADs and then 2 weeks later came home. All was not well when he came home. He came on his terms. He didn't even tell me he was home to be home...i got "well...i'm staying tonight...but i don't know if i will tomorrow...lets just see how it goes" Yep...i was stupid huh? but i didn't know about OW. we got along most of the time..but there was a barrier. Things of course were not the same...and i just couldn't take it. I looked everywhere for anything to clue me to what was going on.

Long story short...every morning he left for work i heard him go behind the house...i would sneak to peek and see if i could find something...nothing. Drove me nuts...but i was able to keep my big mouth shut and keep hunting. I had a conference i had to go to in Hilton Head, SC with a couple of girls from work (this was at almost my breaking point...i was going to leave him...because i didn't know what had happened to my sweet H...he was different and i was so unhappy...) anyway...i left for about 4 days. He called me SEVERAL times while i was gone...this would have been normal...in the old days...but not for the new John he was. Anyway...

that weekend...was his breaking point. He realized he didn't want to be without me. He never said anything when i got home but he was acting like my H again...and did from then on. But i wasn't okay with it. there was still a barrier between us. he didn't want sex. i knew SOMETHING was up. i continued my snooping and 1 month after my trip...i found what the missing link was. In his golf bag...he had hidden pictures of him and then OW. Nothing in them bad. Just snap shots. Mostly of them individually. a couple of them with there heads together nothing..sick or sad to me. still it was sad to me.

anyway...i called my best friend told her...and then here comes H down the drive...i get myself together and go to the living room and sit. H of course didn't come right in..so i have to ask him to. i had the pics lying on the coffee table. He didn't notice at first..i just sat there. then i asked him ...who is that? he was stunned, shocked..at first and speechless. he had forgot to toss them...he didn't want to toss them here...but forgot about them. i just looked at him...frozen. he hit the floor. on his knees. Yes very remorseful. Told me he didn't want to lose me. told me he was done. He ended it...it was over with her. that it wasn't what it looked like to me (yeah i know they all say it) but the thing behind the house was his pot. She was his pot smoking buddy too. He admitted everything that day...later he confessed a few things he was afraid to at that point. The OW was a girl he worked with...and for the record they both got fired 2 weeks after i found out...not for that...but still God seperated them for good. H got much better job later (well i guess HuH??) want to know something else thats weird. About a month before my H left...i woke up in the middle of the night and felt like God was telling me to go look in his golf bag (things were bad about 2 months before he left) so i got up and looked...nothing. the day i found the pictures...i kept saying to myself...but there's nothing in here...i've looked before...but...God said look...and i did. Truth!

The pot was a killer for me too. Not my H. No Way!!! this is a good christian man. but like now...this all started when his depression became so severe. we were in a huge financial strain then and his dad was told he would not live another year if he didn't stop drinking. My H thought he could fix his dad...and he couldn't....that is what sent him over the edge....knowing his dad had basically killed himself and my H couldn't stop it. He hates the fact he suffers from the depression and other. so instead of facing it...he likes to search for his "feel good" elsewhere.

anyway...sorry this is so long. After that "episode" in our M. Our M became so much stronger. we became so much closer...and God blessed us so much. We grew from that "episode" and i was thankful because our M was so much better. When i say God blessed us afterwards...i'm not lying! H inherited SEVERAL thousands from an uncle he hardly knew...we lived on easy street for a couple of years. But got stupid. BOUGHT everything and anything and now we are SEVERAL thousand in the negative because of it. After we blew the money...yep we sure did...then we ran up credit card after card...to continue our lifestyle. Then the forclosure letters came and all the phone calls...too much for us...i became overly depressed...and so did H. sooo depressed at our stupidity! and here we are.

So sorry i've rambled today. i'm at home because the preschool called...Jay sick again. My darling H is off but so is OW and they are painting the town today. How nice...i lose a days pay AGAIN for their pleasure. Ughhh!
when is my day coming? Please tell me? i am just ready to run off with anybody who is willing to take me....St. Thomas would be nice!!! HA!

Are you kidding me about Jay...he will never date! the women are all over him now anyway. He's blonde, hazel eyes, and has a small dimple in his chin...i can't go anywhere without some chick telling me how cute he is...he is mine why wouldn't he be? HA!

its soooo warm today...to bad Jakey is sick...i have opened windows in the house its so hot! bet your toasty too huh CJ?

check on you later!

JM

I knew it.

I knew it.

I just KNEW it.

Pot. The first thing I thought of when you said ...not going there today...

How do i know? B/c I've dabbled. Sometimes I still dabble. I'm in a band; it seems to come up. I hate admitting it b/c I don't want people to think I'm the scum of the earth. I know I would be a better person if I didn't. Yes I look down on OM for his use, because he does such MASSIVE quantities, and can't seem to control it at all. And he has experimented with so many hard drugs, and these are NOT my thing.

I'm sorry if this has tainted your (or anyone's) opinion of me, but I can't talk about this with you without being honest. I don't do it around my kids, when I was taking my computer course, I didn't do ANY for 4-5 mths. It is a small part of my life, and I've NEVER hidden this fact from my W. She's always known. In the time we've been together, I've never let it interfere with my responsibilities, and my W would certainly agree; I know, spoken like a true addict...

My W hasn't been thrilled about it, but hasn't ever complained that it was something that was a problem. Yeah, I know, there is LOTS of things she never complained about that were OBVIOUSLY a problem. It is something that likely should have stopped entirely. W and I had talked about it lots, and she said she really accepted it. I don't believe that it has been the demise of our marriage, OM has told me that W has sometimes stopped by his apartment wanting to do it with him, he says he won't let her without me present. I hope so, I don't know how much discipline she would have with it. Interesting that she was volunteering to do it with him, not me. I've always been scared of being the cause of her use. I don't think she does it these days, or for a long time, but I guess I don't know. Early on, we did it together a couple times, W had done it in the past, and I have NEVER tried to manipulate her into doing it. Maybe I've made it uncomfortable for her to approach me to do it herself, and you know, I thought that this was good! I didn't want her to do it and resent me for it later. I prefer it over alcohol, rarely drink, my family and career(s) come first, so I really don't have much time to do it. Lately I've stopped entirely, I don't need that complicating my life while I am going through this...I tend to do it less when I'm stressed...

I don't condone its use, and I don't want my children doing it. Even my Mom knows. I don't know if I should be admitting this here but I've read some other posts here, that if I read between the lines, I know what they're talking about...

So that's how I knew, I know that it is attractive to want to be able to share your "feel goods" with your partner, and when you can't, you are vulnerable to wanting to share them with someone else. I made a pact with myself long ago that I would not find another woman friend who I enjoyed this with, too dangerous. Yes, OM was often my partner here. I always distanced myself from him so that I did not get wrapped up in his world though... just too mental. I wish now I had just closed the door on his friendship long ago, and I wouldn't be in this mess now.

So now I am afraid that if she gets involved in him further, she might be on a slippery slope, he has SO much influence on her, the bad girl in her was certainly tweaked when they where having their sex talks, talking about things that I just didn't think my W would EVER consider. I won't get into it, but 3way sex is much further than most people are willing to go, no? I would prefer knowing that she is into kinky, crazy sex, WITHOUT 3way, y'know?

So what is she capable of if she gets wrapped up in him later on, if I'm gone? Friend, lover, pot partner, whatever?! What else will she be influenced into thinking is innocent and right? She's pretty strong-willed, no doubt, and she HATES OM's pot use, other day he was "celebrating" getting a haircut, if you can believe it! And W was PISSED off at him. And he says,"I don't care, i'm doing it anyway". He tells me ,"let her get sick of this, she will eventually, and CJ you need to be her soft place to land." I actually think he's right here, but how long will it take for her fascination with OM to fade, that her "bad girl" side couldn't keep up with him if she tried, that she CAN'T fix him. That trying to be a part of his world will take her to dark places. Why can't he just do NC to speed up this process? I would've thought, and still think, that her strong-will and ideals would not allow her to get interested in the kind of sex OM was offering either. But she finds his world fascinating, I'm afraid that she might also find herself into it too much. I don't want my kids over there, I know he won't smoke pot in front of my kids, but what if he accidently leaves something out, and what if it happens to be hard drugs, in the past he's had many dealers go through there, and one dealer left his stash there for a time. I know, it took me years to find an equilibrium with his friendship that I was comfortable that I was protected from his psycological meanderings and lifestyle. I should have protected my wife more, had I known how far their friendship had gone, I think I would have, I tried to keep him at arm's length for me and my wife, but they bridged the gap on their own...

So there you have it, pummel me, I won't defend myself...

So has your H gone on AD's? If not, I'd be wondering also if his pot has started again also. Mix 'n matching seems like a bad idea, I remember thinking this when I went on AD's. Trust me, the last thing that will solve your H's mental state is pot, I've watched it ruin at least 2 other college buddies lives, as well as OM's. If it is done too often, I've seen how it changes behavior, and before you know it, you are skipping out of life b/c you don't have the ambition and energy to do constructive things. And it's VERY attractive when one is feeling down. I hope for your sake this isn't happening, b/c someone heavily involved in pot is someone who is very adept at denial and avoidance indeed.

I really hope that this is not part of your present sitch, but I'm guessing your certainly wondering...

Don't worry about rambling, I was more than curious to know if I was right, knowing these things sheds more light about your H and your sitch, and knowing these things clear up a lot about the type of person your H is and what you are dealing with.

So this all makes me think of the POJA!!! If pot is not something that you're willing to integrate into your marriage, then you shouldn't have to. If my M works out and my W feels the same, then I need to make the choice to stop. It would be a minor sacrifice to make my W's life and our marriage a happy one. I've always thought it was a minor problem, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was one more link in the chain, maybe my W doesn't care at all; this is certainly how she has acted, but we don't communicate worth a darn!

I wish knew when your day was coming, just know that it will, you won't have to live like this forever, and someday you won't! I'm starting to learn to look forward to that day...either this marriage will become wonderful, or someday I will have another marriage that IS. So will you. Imagine applying all he new things you have learned here and MB and having an amazing relationship within your marriage. It WILL happen, i guess all you're not sure about is WHO you will be married to! You obviously have a lot to offer someone, and you are incredibly insightful. You will make someone a fantastic partner! Dunno if St Thomas is available though...

Ummm, NOT warm here, but not bad for this time of year...~7deg F, we got TONS of snow yesterday, driving was quite a chore, and shoveling out the driveway took awhile, but we should be getting warmer this month as spring gets closer...

I've started the 180, but I'm taking a sensitive approach, I've noticed that when I get too indifferent, my W tends to think I'm doing dishonest things, so I can't be too mysterious or I think she will just quit. It is a fine line, isn't it? Weird though she comes downstairs last night to show me the new stamps she bought for scrapbooking, cheerfully reminds me this morning that she is taking Calli (2yrs) to speech therapy, I hardly looked at her this morning, and she says "good morning". I don't hug her anymore, no ILY's, and it is to the point where it doesn't bother me much, I think. I not sure. I want my marriage, I don't want this alien!

Is this how it is for you? Do you feel numb? Does this make it easier? I have moments where I just want to cuddle up with her, but then I remind myself of all the ways she's hurt me... 2 affairs that I know of, I might get into this later..., it's in the last post on my thread.

Of course you stayed last time this happened. You did the right thing, and got through it, and had a wonderful marriage, but yes now your here again. Not fair. No doubt. God gave us free will and your husband is making bad choices right now. Still, even though we have free will, I believe that God is in the driver's seat, and he is looking out for you and Jay. You'll find happiness again, God will let you know how, I too am struggling with being patient.

Hope Jay gets better, whew, you think YOU rambled!

I hate being sick. Jay gave me the funk, which he picked up from his daddy...now me. I have felt horrid all day..little bit better now. just tired of lying around so i thought i would say Hey.

H kept Jay this evening until he fell asleep, then brought him home. He promised to pick him up from preschool tomorrow for me...making the comment "i need to make an effort" you sure do!!!

CJ as far as the pot goes....not something i would have EVER dreamed my H would do. Oh sure i knew about when he was 18 and did. He liked to party and run around just as most young guys do...but after he got older he grew out of it. We had been married 5 years when the first "episode" happened. My H hates...no let me rephrase...HATES!!!!!! alcohol. yep did that too when he was young...but just to fit in. His dad being an alcoholic turned him against it totally. My sis and BIL both drink casually. DRIVES H crazy. got so upset last Christmas because they brought a bottle of wine to my dads...he was ready to leave.

I calmed him down and said...if they drink in front of Jay then we will go...but please lets try to not make an issue...(i always try to keep the peace..and have my whole life...that's what divorce does to children huh?) anyway...they didn't and he was tolerable. When we left he told me...NEVER again will i allow you to talk me into to keeping quiet. I don't want my son around it while i have say so over his life. I won't do it again. I hate it and i don't want Jacob around it.

I said okay...i understand. I admired him so much for feeling so strongly about it...and i just couldn't imagine saying anything else. It moved me. it made me just love him more. Seeing how much he did not want his son around what he hated so much. His dad wasn't there for him. Drank All the time. didn't go to H graduation...nothing. Never did much of anything with him. He did come to our wedding which shocked my H...but he was so proud he did. anyway....I knew he was only trying to protect Jay from what killed him growing up.

thats what i try to stress to him right now. I am trying to keep Jay from what killed me growing up too. but i can't...Why doesn't he see that from me? I told him one time...divorce to me is what alcohol is to you. I said you never wanted Jay around alcohol..well i never wanted him around adultry either. Why is it i am always the loser?


Yes H is on ADs now...started back in December. Jay finally threw a fit in front of him...as a result to his leaving and it tore his butt up! so he promised for me and Jay (yep he said me too) that he would call his Dr. and go back on them. he did and that has always been the excuse for why he is still gone. "my pills haven't kicked in good yet" or "well i am a fruitloop" or "my minds messed up you know" ...then after the first month...it was ..."well i don't think it's strong enough..i need to increase my dosage"...so he went back to the Dr. in January...she uped the dosage...then the excuses were "well it will take 2-3 weeks for the higher dosage to kick in" "maybe when this higher dosage kicks in i'll know if i want to come home or not" "when these pills kick in maybe then i'll know if i want to work on the marriage"...he's been on the "higher dosage" almost 2 months. He isn't using the pills much anymore...he knows he has "run out of time" with that excuse. Yes before he mixed the 2...it was awful. that is why i said when he came home...it was horrid. One min. fine...the next...Good Lord..run for cover... He is on Effexor now...but i didn't read on the insert that it ENDS AFFAIRS...maybe that will be his new excuse..."well these pills haven't made me stop screwing around yet...i guess they haven't kicked in yet"

I don't think he is doing pot now. No...this OW is too different. She's an old money hag. she lives in a 1.2 million dollar house...no lie man. She is what SHE would like to think high class. she is a POS in my opinion, and the eyes of everyone i know. although her home might be high dollar...she isn't. living way above their means. No my H is dressing, grooming, and acting so differently. Wearing stuff i used to try to get him to wear. cutting his hair differently....like i had asked him to try for 12 years...funny wouldn't try anything for me...but then this old grandmaw comes along and he is willing to do anything she suggests.

what gives? but anyway...i don't believe they or he is doing pot this time. He quit immediately after i found out before...handed everything over to me. I don't think he ever did afterward...never any signs of it. No he changed for the better last time...MUCH better...he really really is a good man...way down deep in there.

Not so sure that man will ever surface again. sometimes i see a glimpse or two. He just seems to not be interested in me. Just at times and thats not often. Last night he came down and kept shooting this little gun thing of Jays at my chest. over and over. I just ignored him. It was so hot in the house...(it was 76 here yesterday) and i was wearing what i would in the summer...tank and capri's...i don't know...that was the first time in a long time he acted interested "that way" but again...i just ignored him. thought it would be best. all i could think about was how he spent the day with OW while i lost a days pay and Jay was here sick.

oh well. i just don't know what to do/think/say or be anymore. I am just starting to not care about anything but Jay. I am tired of him. GUYS I AM JUST SICK AND TIRED OF HIM. if the old, wonderful, loving, caring man isn't coming back...then i just want out. i know i need to rock his world..but i don't know what or how.

I can't leave. I refuse to. I am not moving in with my parents i don't care. Will not do it. this is my home. Jays home. Jay needs something stable in his life...this is all he has and i won't take this away. However...i don't know what else to do. that is the only thing i can think of that might just scare him...but even still...i'm not sure it would. He said before "if you move...i'll just come by where you are everyday"

I have to just keep praying. Hoping God will bring this out into the light of day! Hoping to see H sporting a couple of black eyes one day from OWH. just hoping and praying God will end this soon!

well...gotta go...can't breathe again...

later! JM

Wow,

Your H feels THAT strongly about alcohol? That says alot about his character...I think that it is great he feels so strongly, esp with the situation with his dad, so sorry to hear all that, must've been a tough time...

I can relate, my dad is an alcoholic, I think he's doing better with it now that my parents are together again, but i know it sure made me NOT to want to be in the same boat. I drink sometimes and I don't mind it, but MODERATION is the name of the game for EVERYTHING for me, whether it's drinking, watching TV, playing guitar, etc. Almost ANYTHING can be too much (and therefore damaging) if done too much where necessary things get neglected...

I'm glad to hear that you don't think that your H is doing pot right now, you don't need that. Just be careful not to assume that certain "types" of people don't do it (ie. "high-class"), in my experience I have been amazed over and over to find out who are closet smokers. (university profs, businessmen...) I do trust your intuition on this one though, sounds like your H really does have a strong value system, no wondering this affair is so confusing...no wonder it's impossible for him to admit...



Yeah, I really agree with you on this, why does your H get to choose what is damaging to your marriage? Excessive drinking is not good for a family, but neither is an A. Your NOT always the loser, it just feels that way. The despair comes from not seeing results, you are doing the right things, you are so right on this point! There are many things that damage a relationship...again the WS gets to make the rules, and in order to try to win them back, we have to fight fair, not your fault...but I don't think you're blaming yourself...

I'm glad your H is on AD's, I hope it helps, he must be swimming in guilt right now, I'm sure the AD's have kicked in just fine by now...he knows using them as an excuse is futile...keep communicating logic to him, calm, no LB's, you know all this...



I feel you. It's hard to watch the influence OP has on your S. My W wife talks just like OM these days, uses his reasoning, it's just hard to watch...she uses the word "nasty" all the time now...OM's favorite word for the last year...the influence is so deep, that's why our words have so little effect, but OP's words go miles, I try not to worry about it, just another reason why recovery does NOT start effectively until OP is gone...it's one of those ongoing dull pains that we endure, it really makes me numb...

I think he is still interested in you, he just wonders why he doesn't feel electric, like he maybe used to. Another thing I deal with, WS's just get unrealistic thoughts, how do you make an older relationship feel NEW? You can't! But mature, comfortable love is the BEST!!! They just can't see it right now...the excitment they are wrapped up in causes comparisons all over the place, another reason that NC needs to happen...I wish we knew how to make this happen...

I like the idea that he is trying to flirt with you, I think he wants to bring his feelings back, he's testing you to see if you could be receptive, I'm not sure HOW you ought to react. Will no reaction cause him to get discouraged or want to quit? I know my W's last attempts to come to me got rejected and that was the last straw for her. Maybe a small smile to let him know he's welcome? Let him want to try some more? But maybe he just wants to approval, hoping you are still there, wrong message? Nothing else though, just a smile. I don't know, maybe doing this is the wrong thing, what do you think?

I think he knows he needs to make a decision soon, I know it has been a long time...but I still think that something is around the corner...



No kidding, who wouldn't be?! Hang in there, if you feel this way, it will come out in your 180, he gets it, you are putting pressure on him to come home, GOOD! Keep working it, one day, it will be YOU that gets to decide if the marriage lives or dies, and you WILL be in control, and he will either come to you, or you will quit for good, either way, you will find happiness!!

I hope this day will come soon, still praying...focus on what you want...focus on this happy day, it WILL happen, is HAS to, even your H knows it. And he's scared. very.

cheers, CJ

Hmmm...

Thought about this some more, nay to the smile I think. He is already attached to you, feeling guilty, NO need to help him feel like he still has you in tow and doesn't need to make a decision right now!

Stick with the 180 hardcore, force a resolution, he needs to start hearing the clock ticking!

Later!

Monday's almost here...Ugghhh!!

hows it goin' guys? this weekend has been too short. Nothing much going on here except the same. Jay and i have both been sick since last week. H has been very helpful with jay for the most part. He has asked me several times if i needed anything...showing a little concern...thats good right? oh who knows anymore.

doing the 180 thing right now as we speak. H and Jay are playing Playstation in the living room, while i type a bit here.

Today Jay told me while we were driving down the road that he has seen OW several times in past with my H. You know i was just steaming! Wonder how OWH would like it if OW brought their daughter along to meet my H? especially if daughter had no say so in the matter as my sweet baby boy doesn't. No way. Her H would die.

this is just killing me. Its like he just did it to be mean to me. Why? what in the world have i done? I just don't get this. How can you be so in love with someone and then not the next day? In love with someone else overnight? oh i know its not love with them. Love doesn't come from sin and distrust and lies. So life with me wasn't exciting anymore...Good Lord...who has a life that is just always going great. i wish they would get a grip on life.

i think i'm going mental. this is really beginning to take great toll on me. I am strong...but i am not going to last forever this way.

my best friend and i were talking today and she suggested a PI...for pictures and to go back to OWH and RE expose. don't know if it will do any good or not? but heck what do i have to lose.

H still here everyday. Always ?'s if i seem in a less talkative mood. "whats wrong" ..."nothing...just in here reading" "oh" ....You know it's funny. He is here. Has supper here. plays here. Even put Jay to bed last night for me. He's here...every evening...but he leaves to sleep next door at his moms. He comes home in late afternoon...after he spends time with her. It seems as though he wants to be here, and time with her is less...but yet....there is still a HER.

what is the hold this OW has on him? Why can't he let go? or is it that its my fault? I am not giving him any reason to let go of her am I? Nope. I am still trying to Plan A...I don't tell him...oh it's okay..come home honey when your done with her. No i tell him to end it all the time. But come on guys...6 months and its not over. Yes in the past few months he has turned towards me...more and more...but yet...i've not done anything to make him turn completely. But what? what can i do? I need to scare him but i don't know how.

legal papers won't do it. Tried that...didn't work. leaving won't work...and i don't want to do it because of Jay. Plan B won't work because i can't get it thru his stupid head he can't come and go here all the time. VERY difficult. He calls, comes in...How do i put my foot down..or somewhere uncomfortable...HOW can i scare the holy..out of him...?

Ugghhh....thoughts anyone?

CJ...hope your okay...hope the weekend went okay for you...anything new going on?

gotta go...my little southern boy needs "somepin' to drank"

thanks guys for letting me vent! what would i do without you guys?

JM

I am afraid that you are putting Jay's TODAY best interests ahead of Jay's FOREVER best interests. The day I told DD5 that we might divorce she still claims was the worst day of her life, but I had already filed. If I hadn't done that, H would still be in that same job, working around OW, maybe living with her and OC, or at least he would still be seeing her.

Recovery didn't happen easily, and it didn't happen on its own, and it didn't happen without taking things to the limit.

MSA

Hi JM,

Don't have much time, just thought I'd quote your Romans 8:28 for you here...



You've probably already read these, but here are some more readings, I take heart in them b/c the word of the Lord reinforces that marriage is supposed to be forever, AND that there is forgiveness for adultery, and so it must be this way with US.

Corinthians 7
John 8:4-11
Mark 10
Matthew 19

Take care, I'll check in later... weekend wuz OK, got a bad flu on Sunday, missed work yesterday, my M is still in a stalemate...

I hope your doing better...all my hopes for Jay!

l8r! CJ

CJ-your just the best! been looking for you wondering how your doing! gettin' kinda worried since i haven't heard from you.

Yeah know what you mean...my M same as well. I have been doing the 180 without even really trying since i have been sick. just don't feel like giving him any attention...can't hardly give my child any much less him. He has been different since i got sick. Can't explain it really.

I have decided i am making some changes soon....i have to. don't exactly know what, when or how but i will let you guys know. God will tell me when.

Just a note to you and anyone else out there who might read this post. the past 3 days i have really been down. Emotionally, mentally...completely drained. Yes, i have been sick...which has helped me to feel that way...but i have just felt...empty. I continue praying and praying...maybe not with all the effort i have in the past but still...praying without ceasing...for the man i love, my family, and the M i want so desperately to save. I have felt so many days that God has left me. I know that God loves me...and wants the best for me...but WE all feel this way at times....we know He loves us...but sometimes we get so drained we don't really FEEL it.

I woke up this morning...after having a crazy dream...and the song "Jesus take the wheel" going thru my head. I prayed and started my day as usual but definitely feeling God's presence...just that peace and comfort that He gives. On the way to work, on the radio...a woman was asked how she was getting thru the tough trial she was going thru and her answer was God. I sat there...tears in my eyes...feeling everything this woman was feeling...different trials...different circumstances...but God is with us...every step. He has been for me. Even when i cannot feel him...and feel left alone...God is there. The song that came on the radio after that..."Jesus take the wheel"

I just want to say...that so many days i feel like giving up and running away...but My God is there. Today he reminded me and i am writing to tell you or anyone out there who feels like there is no hope. that you are not alone...when you feel so gutted from your heartache...God is there. Just a prayer away. he can fix anything. He is the only answer. He brings trials in our lives...to draw us close to him...Just hang on...Let God be in control....

Let Jesus take the wheel...

I thank everyone for their kind words and advice! I pray for everyone on here daily...this site has been such a comfort and blessing to me!

My trial isn't over but i know it won't kill me and in the end i will be in a better place....

CJ hang in there....thank you so much for the verses! Much needed! let me know how things are going for you!

Jaysmom

Hmmm...

Kinda freaky how my post lined up with your mindset, eh? I was praying to God to give me some sign of hope, that He is working, and that He is out there...

And then I end up doing this! And therein lies my sign...thank you Jesus!

Didn't think my sign would come THROUGH me, rather I was looking for something to HAPPEN to me! God is within us!

So I guess we still need to look for the signs in everything, it just seems like there isn't enough when we are feeling so exhausted that we just want a chance, and exercise our TAKER for awhile...

I try to remember the ultimate person who could suppress their taker like no other, JESUS CHRIST!!!!!

I've never been a huge bible-thumper, but I've always been a believer, my extra efforts in scripture lately have gotten me by... you seem energized by the power of the Lord... you're in a good place.

Gotta go, I'll check l8r! I sincerely hope that I'm helping your life, I can't seem to help my own, I kinda took a mental break this weekend, just did whatever, and relaxed, it was needed, don't you feel like your efforts get largely wasted? That's how I feel.

Oh, Hi MSA, hope you're doing well!

Hi JM,

Just asking for a little prayer, SD's Dad and Stepmom just had a baby girl this morning, but she's VERY early and in intensive care. Doctor had a meeting this afternoon, the outcome was that she will in ICU for the next 48-72hrs, and will need to stay and the hosiptal for the next 2wks.

It seems that she'll be OK, but everyone is tense, "wait and see" attitude.

I'm worried about SD, she was just bouncing off the walls this morning excited!! I asked her if she'd get to help name the baby, she said,"No, I only get to name YOUR babies." (she helped name DD) "I want a brother so I can name it." I didn't know what to say...left for work pretty down, I don't know if this will ever happen...I'd love to have a son...

Well JM I hope you're OK, I don't know what to say, I think you need some changes also, whether to reexpose (which might put a chink in your 180), or to do some type of Plan B, or something legal, I wish we knew...

I still think you H is coming closer to you...he is just unable to keep away! I know this drives you nuts, but I just want you to remember that THIS is your ace in the hole...we need to find a way to exploit this!

(((JM))) Take care.

CJ

Dear Jaysmum

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here... I have been lurking for a month or so now but found your thread tonight and I want to say we live on totally opposite sides of the planet ..yet I seem to be living the exact same craziness you are now. I am also trying to do this thing dealing with a WH who I kicked out ..to unfortunatley just next door. I also have 4 year old boy ( and his name begins with J too) So WH is coming back and forth 2-3 times a day to see kids. I think I have been plan A ing for about 5 years without knowing it obviously unsuccesfully as he hit me with affair number 2 when I was 3 months pregnant with my daughter ( now 9 months)( and I hadn't recovered from the first affair yet!)

I will post my story here sometime but in the mean time I just wanted to say how much of your thread and posts and your WH's behaviour Was like reading my own story ..are you sure you are not a fly on the wall in our house here???

For example ....about 3 days after I had asked him to leave (mid Feb) he comes in again to spend time with kids ( just as he had every day) ... I can't stand him acting like it's business as usual ... so I make myself scarce ..I had just spent 3 totally sleepless nights in utter tears that our marraige had come to this ...I was an absolute wreck.. So i left him with kids in family room and went to bathroom to brush hair or something (aka escape) I heard him come in ..I said " go away, I'm having a bad day ..I am not coping with this and I can't deal with it or you now ..go away and play with the kids" and he says to me " What's wrong" in a nice sweety voice (aaaaaaaaaaaagh! my brain says) so I grip the bathroom cabinet, grit my teeth, try and hold it together and say again calmly " I can't cope with you right now, I am having a bad day, just leave me alone and go and play with the kids" And he says ( in super concerned nice voice " What are you upset about now?" ( Brain says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aargh!!!!!!!!!!! Your kidding right? What planet are you my dear supposed husband actually living on? Hello!!! YOu are having an affair! It has been going on for over 12 months. You have just got back from a holiday with this OW and I have given up on my marraige and told you to move out! What do you think I am upset about!?" But instead I say calmly " this is why I am not able to deal with this today, if you don't know what I am upset about by now after 4-5 years I can't do this any more ..but I can't deal with it now ... leave me alone and go play with the kids ..Please!" So he says in a less nicey fed up tired of my wifes dramas again voice " What have you found out now?" ( Brain now screams: ARGH AND Wants to pull newly brushed hair out of head and bang head violently on nearest wall while brain shouts 'what do you mean found out something else ..what else could I possibly find that would be bigger and better than I have already found over the years and If I found something new again ... why would discussing with you make one iota of difference .. you just keep doing the same old stuff over and over again and the lies get bigger and better no matter what I find and confront you with" But instead I sit on floor and calmly say a few words before baby starts crying ( and I am in tears by now anyway) so i again say "Can't deal with this now ..leave me alone and go play with DS I have to go and feed DD. Just go away and leave me be) ( Shortly after this I lost it .... a good story but a long one so I won't go on boring you with it now )

So the husband asking "what are you upset about" frustration i relate to.

It also seems like your WH seems to waltze in nice for the most part acting as if business is as usual. Same here.
Since I asked my WH to leave ...I have had no other discussion about OW or our M or anything other than kids/business/or finances ( apart from a couple of comments about OW in the last few weeks ( which for me is a huge difference) He wanders in to see kids mroning afternoon and night ... asks if I want a coffee ( I usually decline) I usually make my self scarce ( go to bedroom or go to my office and do work) I hear him fluffing about in the kitchen taking out my garbage or putting some stuff in dishwasher or picking up some kids toys trying to be helpful
( Brain screams :ARRRRGH I'll deal with the messy house ...I don't want you to help with housework ..I want you to stop having and affair, get rid of OW, and show that you CARE that you have hurt me so much and that you CARE/Understand that your marraige is collapsing like and avalanche)
Yesterday he took DS to go get some milk and bread which we needed and said to DS " Let's take mummies car for a car wash"
Today he came over with a photo he'd taken of DD a few days ago he'd printed out and put in a frame for me. ( Brain screams : AAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! If you love me and daughter so much why did you have an affair while she was in me and once she had popped out and you decided you really loved her why did you continue your affair ...and if she is so cute and you love her so much now and you love me enough to print me out a nice photo showing how much you care ...why can't you go and end it with OW right now ..and come tell me you've done so AAAAARHG!Where is some hair to pull out ..where is the nearest brick wall) What do you say to such men? I give up really I do. so I just said " Gee that's nice ..thankyou"

So here I sit, kids are asleep, I am lurking on MB and wasting emotional energy trying to keep my sanity and WH is over the house next door working on his computer ( Not much different to before I kicked him out really)

I don't know which plan I am in right now ... but I do appreciate the support that others like yourself are going through similar madness.

so please, next time your WH walks in the door acting like everything is OK and you have no idea what to say or how to react whether you should be Nice, or ignor him, or bring up M and OW, or act happy like nothing is going on just like him, or make him jealous that youa re getting on with your life , or hit him with divorce papers, or just try and bite your toungue and hold the tears back and keep it together because your 4 year old is beside you and he loves his dad and is pleased to see his dad ..please please please know that you are not the only one ...I am going through exactly the same thing on a daily basis right here right now ..just on the other side of the planet.

Please take care of yourself and your boy.

WOW!

WOW!!

WOW!!!

Hi there crazymakingstuff... dunno if this is my place here on JM's thread, but...

Welcome to MB!! Sorry you are going through this. No doubt it is hard, and I'm shocked with the similarities your have with JM.

I'm sure it will be a comfort for her to read this knowing that you are enduring the same...I wish you BOTH did not have to do this...

5 years! Are you serious? I can't imagine what you have gone through. Suddenly I feel selfish for wallowing in my own sitch. I hope you're OK...I hope you have some hair left at the end of this!

Take care of yourself, I think you gals have a lot to talk about...

hey guys!

wow indeed! i cannot believe CMS...you and i are married to the same man apparently!

things seem somewhat better...i think???!!! H seems very...oh can't seem to find the word i am looking for...ummmmm almost oh...gosh...no word seems to fit. Saddened...no...repenting....kinda....

now don't get me wrong...he hasn't confessed or anything but something is different with him lately. Kinda hanging his head, staying around longer, calling me at work, putting Jay to bed the past few nights (which is what HE ALWAYS did before d-day) Continuing to stay the same...he isn't going back and forth with himself.

oh gosh...none of this is sounding right. Its not making sense as i type it. i wish i could explain it. H seems to be hitting some sort of a turn around....almost like he is feeling ashamed, sad...like he now really KNOWS what he wants...but is still not ready to do what it will TOTALLY take.

He is still seeing OW. but IMO doesn't seem as happy about it.

I did find something interesting out the past couple of days. Long story...but....my best friend has a friend who goes to OW's church. OWH is a very good christian man, very involved in the church, teaches SS class both of them apparently very involved....a couple of weeks ago OWH resigned his position and they have since left the church. Best friend said that her friend didn't know why (my friend exposed the A to her...and she was shocked by it...)and that everyone was ? why they left.

I know your probably thinking...what does that have to do with anything...and maybe it doesn't, but i believe that it is proof to me...that things with OW and OWH are not going smoothly. Something is going on....maybe OWH found out some things or someone in their church did...SOMETHING...

My point...God is working...EVEN when you don't always feel it or see it.

I don't know if things really are turning around...maybe i am too hopeful. Last night we watched a movie and had supper together...

i am starting to FEEL like it is hopeful anyway!

please keep praying....

gotta go! i'll post more later!

CJ--hope your okay! I'll check in on you in a bit...gotta work!!
JM

Hi JM,

How are you doing? Any developments?

CJ

hey CJ! i was checking in on you yesterday and saw that your thread on GQ took off...thats good. Sounds like your getting alot of good advice! I hope your doing okay!

things are about the same. Nothing new really. H really starting to seem sorrowful. hanging the head alot the past week or so. Starting to say he is a POS and things like that. wonder what that means? He is different. He is really, really different. I dunno how to describe him...and i am curious as to what it means.

My health hasn't been the best lately and since...that is when i have seen the change in him. I have some health "issues" going on...that are kinda scarry to him i think...Maybe that is helping bring him out of the fog. Weird huh?

also my DS told him i had a friend named "Todd" that i talked to. I don't have a friend named Todd. Never have. Don't know WHERE that came from. he questioned me about it. my best friend wondered if H made it up so that i might call Jay a liar and he could say "see i have never had jay around OW" but ....Jay told me he told H that. I said "son, who is my friend Todd?" he looked up toward the sky and said...thats Todd. I just shook my head and said okay...but i don't talk to him...do i? he said...nope, i do. DS has had an imaginary friend for couple of years now. His name...damage...yep...damage. (has a couple of others too...pooty and chooty...my son has the wildest imagination) but don't know this Todd fellow. i don't think Jay lied about OW, but he did lie about the Todd thing. Now i wonder...really am i going crazy?

the past couple of days H and i have had good conversations. last night i thought i was almost gonna get a confession out of him, but he stopped before crossing that bridge...still it was break through...he is almost repentful..(is that a word?) anyway...

with that...what should i do? or do i do anything? Is this A possibly dying? is that why the change in him? my fear is that in a day or two he will fall backwards again and i don't think i can physically or mentally handle it. My health issues are heart related and this situation isn't helping only hurting them. My son is my life and i want to be his mommy for as long as God will allow me...

maybe removing myself from here and staying with my dad for a while until i am feeling better will help in more ways than one. Help me...but maybe leaving while he is in this state of somewhat sorrow will be what he needs to make him fall off the fence he has reclined on for almost 7 months.

oh who knows...any thoughts anyone?

CJ-hang in there...keep me posted on anything new!

gotta go...Jaysmom

ok guys...i'm getting a little freaked out right now. H called twice this am "checking in" sounding even more sorrowful, pitiful, sad...than ever. Picked my Rx up for me at the pharmacy (told him i had to get it today, when i got there they said...your H already picked it up), bought some things i needed and Jay several things today.

right now he's playing in the living room with Jay...all sad acting and down. Freaking guys what is it?

Yes he is always here anymore this time of day...hanging out with us. I have made myself busy the past 2 days and he hasn't seen either of us...he made sure he came to leave the lights on though the past couple of nights so i wouldn't have to come in the dark.

The sad, pitiful act is freaking me out. What does this mean? Yeah, i've seen it at times...this is the worst...and the longest...almost a week of it now...but each day it gets worse.

Is this good? Or is something bad around the corner? Or is it just a phase?

Any thoughts guys?

Gotta go before he comes in and catches me....hehe!

Jaysmom

Hi JM!

I think it is a good sign. Please be careful with getting your hopes up though, we can't be sure, and who knows how long he will stay in this stage!!

I willing to bet the guilt is really starting to seep in. POUR ON THE COAL!

Oh JM, please take care of you and your heart! I felt awful for you when I read this...

Todd, eh? Hmmm...well a little jealousy might just be what is needed here...

Take care, I'll check back ina bit...

CJ

well the sad, pitiful, feel sorry for me act is gone. dang it. I liked it. it was at it's heaviest yesterday. making me think he was possibly in the withdrawl stage. thinking OMG...the A has ended. It just had to. Lookey here at him all sad and needy.

eeh. today he is a butt. Not a butt like he has been. Just not like the past week...i was liking the "oh please feel sorry for me" bit.

Of course...his attitude today was probably a result of my best friend. she's very OUT SPOKEN and the past 'almost' 7 months of biting her tongue ended today. she got ahold of my WH and gave him an ear full. He hung the phone up on her. I was proud of her for taking up for me, but also afraid of what damage could've done to me as well. I was afraid H would get mad at me thinking i had something to do with it. I had NO idea she was going to call him. She told him she thought what he was doing was wrong and she was tired of seeing him hurt me. told him "you know what your doing is wrong...noone needs to tell you that...why don't you be a man and stop hiding behind your moma's skirt tail"

He of course told me about it. He said he wasn't angry with me and knew i wasn't behind it. H knows best friend very well and wasn't at all surprised at the call. Only negative thing he really said about her was that he told her he never wanted to speak to her again.

At least if nothing else...he is starting to see how he looks thru others eyes. Understand guys...my H has lived during this A, the past 6+ months with not one soul but me saying anything...yes you heard me right...NOT ONE PERSON has said ANYTHING to him about the A, about losing me, about how he is screwing his life up...nothing...noone....

EXCEPT ME. his mommy just lets him come and go. avoiding contact and communication with him...to please him. He works pretty much by himself, only seeing his boss at times and the other guys..only in passing...so even though they "know" they just don't speak of it. He isn't close to any of his family...just his mom...and has not a friend in the world calling him at all. My best friends H, who is his closest friend....hasn't talked with him since after Christmas. they spoke briefly at Jays party but only chit chat.

Is that a reason that this could still be ongoing maybe? the fact that he has noone saying anything to him. His only friend besides me is this OW. His contacts are ME and OW. his mom in passing. His son.

Good Lord. I'm going mental. wait i'm already mental. where do you go from there. cause i'm there. OMG i'm there and i am so mental i don't even know what "there" is. See guys...gone...losing it. whew.

As he left tonight...he said...well i should be home about the same time as you do tomorrow. Sure after you run around with your old ugly ho, you'll come home to your wife and son. i just can't get the image of this OW out of my mind the past couple of days. Guys i have said it before and i'm gonna say it again...She ain't pretty. I mean she is just NOT attractive at all. If some of the guys he worked with knew...i imagine they just might say...dude...your wife is hot...what the HECK are you doing? Seriously...they would laugh at him...she's that bad. they know what he is doing they just don't know the who. no one has seen the who except me and my best friend.

Ick! it's late and i am rambling. oh well. thought i would just post an update for anyone who gives a.

CJ...trying to keep up with you on GQ but that thread has really taken off! lots to read...maybe someone has given you some good advice i could use too!

see you guys later! Jaysmom

Hi JM,

Oh I wish I knew how to help you! I wish I knew how to make this all stop...for both of us.

I wouldn't worry that his "pitiful" attitude seems to be gone right now, if your BF gave him an earful, he likely has to go back into denial to cope, pretty normal.

Did your BF say if he said anything to confirm or deny this A. Sorry, I'm curious, but does he lie about the A to others? I glad to hear your H doesn't blame you for the call, don't worry about what damage is done, I suspect none, at any rate, it was out of your control, wasn't it?

So I'm sorry to say, but it seems that exposure didn't work real well for you b/c it didn't put on "public" pressure. As I learn, it seems that this is what exposure is about, revealing the A to people who can have an influence on H. Sadly, it sounds like there is not much influence... so YES, to answer your question, my take is that the exposure hasn't created enough influence on HIM. But don't underestimate the influence on OW. If her husband is aware, and it seems some strangeness is occuring on THAT side of the fence, then you can bet that he is being vigilant. HOW could you be married, find out about OW's A, and not care? I mean, EVEN if he is sick of her, he is a good christian man, wouldn't think that he would SUPPORT it, would'ja? The influence may very well be coming in the other direction...don't give up hope!

I'm willing to bet that, in a day or two, your H will be back to his resentful self, if not he'll be cheerful...but STILL more mentally "present" at home. Don't fear a regression here, it's likely to be short lived. When you get into recovery, I suspect this'll happen from time to time... (a regression, that is...)

Yeah, I've been getting a lot of support, and it is really making me want to spring into action. I'm a newbie, but I've been trying to post to others also, to give back. I've not really been doing the 180 anymore, I know, I go back and forth, but it really doesn't seem to be all that effective, being loving works just as well...I worry that doing the 180 too closely resembles my behavior from b4 this crisis, y'know? I was very distant...

Most of my supporters are urging me to expose. So I plan to, worried about the effects, but I'm tired of doing nothing. Lovinganyway is helping me with my LB's, breaking down how I think about my present, and aiding awareness of my emotions, boundaries, and reality. Very helpful. Still frustrating though, I don't get a lot of chances to practice this with my W, we have so little undivided attention time. But I think the point is that I practice this with MYSELF. The Wonderings, Owl, Eagle, all have chimed in and been helpful...

Dunno what might apply to you. LA's posts apply for ANYONE who is concerned with handling DJ's and SD's, and O&H. Check them out, as well as her posts on threads adrianc, mrlockedup, whereranswers, and got2keeptrying.

I'm worried about exposing, but I think I would feel ok about it if I do it a certain way with an express purpose for saving my family, not to shame my W. At any rate, I am aware that i need to start taking the lead, the waiting is not helping, thinking about just going ahead and seeing a priest, and inviting my W along, I feel I need to get surrounded by people who support marriage, rather than her friends and OM who, despite their "support" isn't pushing for marriage the way I hope for, they mostly just reinforce her own negative feelings...

But I have been doing OK, hope you have too, hope your heart is OK, it's really taken a beating (no pun...i won't joke about your health) emotionally and now physically. I'll pray for your health and happiness. They are coming...you've earned them, give it time...

I still think that your ace in the hole is that your H just NEEDS to be with you and Jay at home. He is there so often, obviously worries about you, picks up medicine. And yes, i know, this is confusing and drives you mental. Well not to worry, you just declared that you aren't "going" mental anymore, but rather you "are" mental!! How liberating for you! Now don't worry about it, this process is over, hehe, and that's left is living.

As LA told me "hug reality hard". This is your sitch, whether you like it or not, your worry (ie. craziness) comes from not being able to control what is going on with your H. This leads to obsession, which leads to emotions, which lead to frustration. And this is you making you hurt! Stop hurting yourself! The A is not your fault, right? Your BF's call was not your fault. Having Jay mixed up in this is not your fault and not Jay's fault. When your emotions are coming at you, ask what they mean, why they are there...they are giving you information, about what you are willing to do, how you want to live, what you need. Pause, breathe, listen to them, and realize that they are reactions to things that are out of your control, or things within your control. Are you angry? Think about why. Because things are happening that are outside your boundaries? Good to know. What things, who is doing them? If not you, then think about who. Your H? OW, OWH? Yourself? Now you have this info. by the time you figure out the cause, you will have processed the emotion. Emotional reaction uses a different part of the brain (forget where I read this recently), admit to yourself the moment you are having an emotional reaction, say,"Hmmm, I'm feeling sad/frustrated/angry right now". yeah, kinda Freudish. This activates your logical brain, and helps override your reactions.

Then analyze the reasons why you feel the way you feel. If you can't control these reasons, allow yourself to ACCEPT it. Accept that these things are NOT your fault. Because why should you be responsible for someone elses actions? If the reasons CAN be controlled by you, if they come from you, then make the changes. See, information. Very useful, been helping me alot. My take on LA's posts. Redirect yourself, put into action what you CAN, don't ruminate on what you CAN'T. CAN is more fun, can allows you to act. It allows you to live. Live. Reality is NOT what we want it to be right now. Just NOW. But it is where we are. It is not forever. Don't fall in love with your future though, be IN the NOW. Find in it what you can, enjoy your H's company, joke with him, play with Jay, make your NOW inviting to yourself. You CAN. Others CAN'T. You CAN'T make your H remorseful. He CAN. Is he living in his NOW? Doesn't matter. You see?! Is something happening on the other side of the world that would make you sick? Probably. Doesn't matter, it CAN'T. Will you spend all your time thinking about how to influence your H, or how to influence your happiness? Ration some time for YOU. You deserve it. Your H has his own truth, and will face more of his truth as time goes on. But what's true for you? Are you happy with yourself? You CAN be, I'll bet you are proud of what you are doing...hmmm, good thought for me too, I'm HAPPY I'm doing what I'm doing. You are doing what makes you happy. Cool. And you'll continue doing things that make you happy. You don't like your sitch. Doesn't mean you aren't being the best YOU that YOU CAN. These actions define our morals, values. Who else can take this away? Who else can take US away? No one. Nope. They CAN'T. They should worry about something else also.

Don't worry, be happy! (de do do do d-do, d-do do, do de do...) I'm singing the song, cuz I'm mental. It really is liberating...