Ah, he's a conflict avoider. Actually as far as your own LoveBusters, I did mean before the affair. What was wrong with the dynamic in your marriage that you can change? You are working on that I think I can see.

In plan A, how not to do LoveBusters but be firm? Sometimes you just can't, and that's when Plan B comes into play. WHen the WS is just on the fence and WILL NOT GET OFF and you can't take it anymore. You may be close to that point it sounds like.

But you keep reassuring him you are there for him and want to work on the marriage. This gives him a lot of security. No need for him to make a decision right away, in his eyes. You'll wait. Frustrating, isn't it?

MSA

Very frustrating!!! i have prayed that God will give you the advice to give me, when i ask you things. and for the first time i hear it loud and clear.

i know that God wanted me to tell him that i love him, that i want to be his wife, that i DO NOT want our M to be over. I believe God needed me to start being very loving towards him, to draw him back to the love he has for me. That was the main lovebuster in our m. my H showed a GREAT deal of love for me and i did not return the same to him. Even though i love him as much if not more, i have not always been as loving. i started becoming very worried with my weight gain, appearance, just really down on myself. He would tell me over and over...your beautiful, i love you, etc. i just didn't accept it i think, became depressed and withdrawn, especially towards him. and in the end...i was just ill alot and that is what i think pushed him away, and into her arms. she was telling him everything he needed to hear and i wasn't. His love was dying for me.

that is why i believe i have had to just show and tell him the past 2 months how much i love and need him, because...he didn't feel much love for me...i know he felt some...because he couldn't completely let go of me. Now that i have told him, showed him... i feel stuck. not sure what to do...but it is out of my hands...and in Gods. sometimes i would say things to him so lovingly and afterwards i would shake my head and wonder "where did that come from" i felt like knocking him out and i was being mushy. only from God. i had to draw him back to my love, and put a desire for me back.

so now...i am just getting tired. he knows i love him. Last night he was just awful. He has been for 2-3 days, almost as bad as when he first left! what is that all about? i thought he would go backwards but that much? of course i did some LB's i shouldn't have, yelled at him some..he left, but within an hour or so he called back...using our son as the excuse for calling. then i apologized for yelling at him. then hated myself for apologizing.

his mom who is on my side and keeps reassuring me she is...wants me to just not say anything about OW for a while. she says maybe if i just don't bring her up and just keep encouraging him to get to the Dr. then he will end it sooner. she isn't trying to get me to let it go, she is just like me...don't know what to do. everything i do seems to just not work. if i am nice and tell him i love him, he seems okay. if i am firm and tell him i am fed up, he gets angry, then tells me fine, i don't care, but he always calls to see how i am, to feel me out to see if i am serious. talks nice and acts like things are fine with us.

i know what i have to do, you and my 2 best friends have said it for days. he is on the fence and will stay there until...i make him believe he has no choice left to make. is it normal for the WS to be angry and act like they don't care if you are finished with them. maybe that is what i should've asked all along. and when he calls me after he gets scared i probably shouldn't answer for a few times to really get my point across. he doesn't want to end our M, but he doesn't want to end his A either, and it is more important than our M right now. this is what i need to do to change that. any suggestions?

MSA,
one other quick question...tonight my sister was in and the fam all went out to eat. while eating i had 3 missed calls on my cell (i turned the ringer off...knowing he would probably call) i decided after the 3rd i would try him back ( i know i probably shouldn't but i got worried since it was from his cell he might be broken down somewhere...what is wrong with me?)

anyway....i called him and just very firmly asked "did you need something?" he said well i was just checking in on jake...i said well we are busy...did you need anything....he said "well...when were you planning to come home?" THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZY....

he cannot stand not knowing where i am...but yet still doesn't want to be with me. we talked about 15 mins. i asked him if he had called his Dr. NO, but of course promised again he would...this is gettig old. he flip/flopped from being nice and talky, to being rude...not angry just rude/hateful...then back to nice...

sorry i said it would be quick...but my question is ( and i probably have asked it before a trillion times) but WHY?????? why does he care where i am? why does he call and pretend not to care about me and try to just make it about our son, when it clearly is about me as well...(clearly to me anyway) but if he doesn't tell me where he is and he doesn't want to be at home with me and jay...then why does he care where i am?

so sorry...very frustrated...my dad said you should have told him "if you want to see jacob so badly then why don't you come home where you can see him all the time" Daddy getting a little annoyed with H. ( i am his baby girl you know)

any advice MSA? I SURELY will appreciate

Jaysmom, I think he gets upset with your attempts to move on with your life or not inform him of your every move because it takes the choice from him. HE WANTS to be the the one in control. The WS thinks they are the only one making the hard decisions in these things. He needs someone to point out to him (not you) that you will move on, find a new nice H, a new second daddy for Jay, and you will be fine. Of course, that isn't what any of us want to see happen, but I do wish he would realize that is what will happen if he leaves you... eventually. People remarry, that's what happens.

He doesn't want to change, but he doesn't want to lose you either. Really, have you read Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, or lately? It's useful for your situation.

One other thing, I know when this happened before it seemed to be the meds. I blamed my H's waywardness on his anti-depressants at first, but since have found that most or all of his behaviours were a product of the A, not the AD's. Just a thought. It is probably more the OW that is causing his confusion than not being on his meds. Of course I don't know your entire situation, but that's my feeling.

It sounds like you have some great friends there to support you. That is so helpful & good, they are a real blessing to support you being with your H but being firm. Too many people usually just give the advice of "Dump him" and that is not usually necessary or the best thing (esp. for Jay).

How long have you been in Plan A?

How are you communicating to him the things you realize about how you were in the M before the A happened? Sounds like there were love-busters all around, there usually are, have you written or told him how you take responsibility for what was wrong in the marriage, and how you have grown and the things you have realized about how YOU contaminated the relationship? VERY POWERFUL Plan A stuff to do.

How long have you been in Plan A, about a month-6 weeks? Start reading up on Plan B, just so you understand the differences should it become necessary, which I have a feeling may happen with your H...

Don't give up hope. God loves you, God loves your H, and your son, and He does not want to see you divorced or your family broken up. He WILL help you, as you know, there is a light at the end of this tunnel.

MSA

MSA, well...living in limbo s**ks! i feel like i am in limbo. Plan A seems like limbo to me, but i am still hanging in there.

I am really getting to the i don't know if i do want him stage. I really don't like him anymore, not this person he has transformed into.

Yesterday i read your post and he was at home when i got back after church. our son was napping and he had wanted "time" with him (shocking) but he didn't want to wake him...so i said well...since your here we really need to make some arrangements for the holidays. he said what do you mean? i am like...HELLO...but very firmly just said, you know Thanksgiving, Christmas...what do you suggest. He hung his head and said i don't know..i haven't thought about it. duh! hasn't thought about ruining his life either apparently.

I am in rare form today can you tell? Ha! anyway long story short, i very politely said..."i have really been doing some soul searching this week love, and you know what... i am young, and i AM attractive, and i don't deserve this...there is someone out there that will love me, not cheat on me and love our son as his own to fill the void that you have left in our lives." " i am getting VERY tired of you and this mess" but for the first time ever...what i said i truly felt. not said for the hope it would make a difference. truly felt. i am young, attractive, and i don't deserve this.
he of course got mad, told me he wasn't going to stand around and listen to my s--t. but didn't leave....stood around and kept his head down and listened until...he WAS ready to go. he did leave angry, but 15 mins later guess who called. YEP!

at that point i just talked to him about our son, church, family...this time he really talked to me, in depth about those things...just like we did before all of this. but i stayed firm about some issues that were brought up. but also...want him to miss me and desire to come home...knowing he doesn't have much time left to make the right decision. after our son woke up he came back home to visit with him. he is still buying him alot of toys and things, and still not paying bills like he should. he just isn't facing a whole lot of ANYTHING.

first thing this morning he calls...asking about our son. but he knew he was still in bed that early. i prayed very hard this morning before he called that God would clearly (put it on a billboard sign for me...) show me my next step. i feel i have been doing what God needed me to do. but i also know my feelings are changing. I don't want this man to come home to jay and me. I want my sweet H. he is in there somewhere right? He is so unhappy and looks troubled all the time. How does he continue living in that state? i would be miserable. i believe he is, but can't get the guts to do something about it. Gonna have to make a decision soon or there won't be one to make. I will have already made it.

i know he knows me, and he knows i am getting very tired of this. He isn't gone hardly at all anymore. Very rarely. before it was everyday. last week he only left on 1 evening for just an hour or so. Maybe he is finally giving up. Maybe i am just being hopeful. but regardless, what he and i have is truth, family, love. what he has with her is lies, lies, lies. he is already miserable, and if not careful will be the rest of his life. God is good...all the time...God is good. speak to you later...jaysmom

GOOD JOB!!! I LOVE IT! My H sitting over on the couch heard your quote and said, "WHO said that?" He knows a woman who has made up her mind to move on has a way of stating things that lets her (former?) man know she really means it this time!

You have such a good handle on this. Just DON'T BACK DOWN. When the firmness starts to work, and your self-respect shining thru scares the heck out of him, you just stand firm for those 7 demands we talked about a few weeks (?) ago.

Your Dr. Phil mantra for today, "I'd rather be healthy alone, then sick with somebody else." Over & over until you believe it.

God is good all the time, all the time God is good.

MSA

MSA,

sometimes i crack myself up! Last night he was being oh so kind...but he did go out around 8:30 ish. My girls and i have come to figure she must work until 9:00 sometimes (this being the typical 1 or 2 times a week leaving hour, usually comes back in around 10 sometimes 11) anyway...he came home around 11 last night.

Well our son decided he didn't want to stay with daddy today so i had called earlier and told his mom to have him call when he got in to let him know he would be going to preschool....

we live beside each other...but not right beside ( we share a driveway but we are a distance from hers) anyway i can always see him coming home, ( by the way our home is positioned) at night due to his lights. well apparently he didn't want me to know it was as late as it was and he turned his lights off...HA!

I called as soon as he got in and i said...oh did i wake you? he said well of course...I JUST DIED LAUGHING i couldn't resist. I said you just kill me ...lying...but i let it go there. didn't want him to think i cared too much. But he sure must, going to the trouble of turning his lights off...really trying to conceal this still...but his luck is running out and it has just got to be exhausting trying to keep it hidden and keep on with it.

i can really see he is battling this and it really is getting the best of him...he will have to stop soon or it will be too late. I honestly don't know if i really want him anymore. I am getting to that place you were when you decided to file.

if he doesn't stop it soon...when he ends it...i will be gone. poor thing just thinks its rough trying to hide and keep his affair going, wait until he realizes the love of his life is gone, and the wonderful life he had is gone, never to be had again...all for his selfish pleasure. Hope his few months of infatuation and SF was worth losing his entire life and happiness. and resulting in a child who will always resent him down deep.

I pray he will change soon before my heart is completely cold for him.

Hope you and your hubby are well...hey if he can offer any advice to me...tell him to send it on down...


speak to you soon...jaysmom

Hi Jaysmom, my only suggestion at a glance is that you should tell his Mom the message. Don't ask him to call you, don't call him. I think it's a page out of the Plan B playbook. Don't initiate any contact with him. A complete Plan B is probably out of the question with him next door.

I know i shouldn't have called but i just couldn't resist the temptation of it. And i can't believe i sent that big ol' huge post and forgot to tell you the most important part of it.

When we were talking he got mad at me of course because he was "caught" again. So he started trash talking me and cussing me...i just stopped him in mid cursing and said "listen here...YOU had better stop talking to me and cussing me that way and start showing me some RESPECT right now" i said.."you have made me out to be this horrible person in your head and you know that i am not so from now on get rid of that crap you have made up about me and start treating me with respect...respect that i deserve as your loving wife and mother of your son." just complete silence.

subject changed and he was nice once again.

Yesterday...same situation...no real arguing. we talk. i just very firmly take control of some matters that drift into what could be argumentative. I have really gained alot of control back. maybe because of how i feel. Again yesterday i told him...you need to stop it and get home with me and jake. He just hangs his head...sometimes acts like a child being punished. REALLY, what is that? he honestly does. the past few days and anytime in the past were i have been in real control and firmly holding ground...he drops his head down, doesn't say anything or not much if he does and its like a child getting yelled at for something they have done wrong.

sometimes he reacts...like turning the TV up louder so he doesn't have to hear me...again childish. but he hears me and a while later it is sinking in because he really is up and down emotionally.

He isn't angry with me at all anymore...at times he says things out of anger...(mainly because i aggrevate him about his lying, denial...) but he always goes back to being loving and nice....Yesterday he washed all my laundry for me. (the washer broke and he tried fixing it but couldn't so he took my laundry to his mom's and did it) See he really does still love me...(he has done these little type things since he left...goes down leaves the light on when i will be out late, feeds the cats, takes our trash...) really he must plan on coming home...he hasn't really left has he?

please pray...i believe God is telling me he is growing tired and will possibly end it soon...pray hard i will do as God directs me to...take care! jaysmom

MSA...today is good...just wanted you to know...THINGS ARE WORKING!!!

thank goodness...He is finally coming around...things are getting there. He is getting there. Please continue to pray! God is an awesome GOD! jaysmom

How is it going today, Jaysmom?

MSA

Dear jaysmom and Mrs_STOWaway:

I have never posted to a message board before, so please forgive my ignorance.

I have read through much of your dialogue and am amazed at the similarity of situations between yours and mine. Infidelity is the most dreadful thing I've experienced in my 43 years, and some days I don't know how I can bear it.

I would be very interested to hear any advice or suggestions you two might have. I discovered his infidelity through e-mails in August. He moved into his own apartment in September. I am committed to reconstructing our relationship, but I am overwhelmed by his lying and his distance and his lack of caring. He has said, "I don't love you anymore," and "I don't love you the way you want me to," and other various justifications for his A. He says he's confused. He says he doesn't know what he wants. He says he wants us to start at the very beginning. But there have been so many lies, I don't know what to believe any more. I am afraid that the trust issue has been broken into so many pieces, we won't be able to repair it.

I am at the point now, three months after D-day, that I cannot see him without falling apart completely and I have asked for no contact until he decides for himself if he wants to reconcile. I am filled with anguish and remorse and guilt for my part in creating a situation where infidelity can continue.

I am incredibly open to any help you might have. It will be particularly useful, because you both have been there.

Cherubino

MSA,

Well...things are getting interesting. Last night H came down had supper with me and jay and watched a movie with us. We didn't say much to one another my son was SO happy. but we got along fine and he seemed very happy to be "at home" I stayed very firm when he left. He knows i am at the end of the rope. When he left he yelled "love you" aiming it to jacob, but EVERY other time he always says "i love you JACOB" putting his name on the end to make sure i know it isn't for me. He thanked me for supper and left.

Called me before church this morning, i asked if he would like to go with us and he very nicely said " i won't get finished in time with work to go" (he works every sunday) but i thought it was refreshing that he answered that way instead of just plain NO. He wanted to know if we would be home this evening but i didn't ask why.

Things seem to be better, he doesn't go out much, and he seems more interested in me and definitly worries if he thinks i am upset/mad with him. But i am starting to feel that...do i really want him kinda feel? that is normal right? the fight isn't as hard anymore and maybe that is why i feel the way i do. I still must stay firm and he must comply with your list you gave me to go by plus a few added details...because i truly believe he thinks he can come home without ever admitting to doing anything. maybe he doesn't think it, but that is what he wants. Not gonna happen. He must be honest or there will be nothing to work out.

just wanted you to know...things are looking up, he definitly has changed his mood/attitude towards me. Especially after my RESPECT speech. He is wanting to come home...but i don't think he has completely ended it and he doesn't know how...I still pray "without ceasing"

continue to pray for us...and you are in my prayers as well...any advice please send....Jaysmom.


Cherubino,

I want you to know i am praying for you...the only thing that i know of that can help is PRAYER! some advice from me and this is so much easier said than done...but you just simply can't fall apart in front of him EVERY TIME!!! i have seen so much of a change in my H since i started showing him that basically life goes on without him as well as with him.

i tell him, as you have probably read, "i love you" "i miss you" "i want you to come home" but also i tell him "YOU MUST END IT" "YOU MUST CHOSE ME OR HER" Keep in mind, my H has still to this day, nearly 3 months later, not ever admitted to another woman. He still hasn't admitted, or denied anything to do with OW. but i know there is, and he lies alot, and HE knows i know he is lying...but as strange as this sounds...with my H i believe he lies and denies certain things because he does still love me so much...with our history i believe that he can't believe he is doing what he is doing.

but he is. and from his very early phone calls and his late night apologies...i know he doesn't sleep well, and he is miserable, but as you have read i'm sure, A's are addictions.

MSA has been such a comfort and her advice has gotten me through so many tough days. she has been able to explain H's moods/actions to me to help me understand. continue to read/post...believe me it helps...i just ramble on and on...but if no one else minds...then i continue because it is such a relief!!!!!

try to be strong...PRAY...post...read...buy/check out books...PRAY..PRAY...PRAY...God is the answer, he is bigger than our H's A's, bigger than any problem or trial. Its hard to give it to him, but such a comfort... i find my peace and joy only in him...he has allowed me to live. He has worked, breathed, ate, slept, and taken care of my son for me so many days since H left. lay down your burdens on the Lord and he will carry you.

my prayers with you and your family...jaysmom

Jaysmom, I think you are doing well. The ONLY piece of advice I have at this moment is for you to absorb and remmeber that you will NEVER have more LEVERAGE about what you want & need in the relationship then the moment when he does say he wants to work things out and do whatever is necessary to win you back.

Don't make statements to him right now that make him think you are there for the taking. Stick with statements about being at the end of your rope, sick of this, maybe someone new would treat you better, you don't deserve this, etc. Make these firmly, not in anger. Better yet, don't make any statements at all, just leave him wondering if your heart has closed down to him forever.

Stay away from statements like "What you are doing is wrong. You belong here with me & Jay." He already knows you feel that way, and I know it's the truth. But every time you say it to him you reinforce that you are still waiting for him to come home, and that you are there for the having. You want him to feel that YOU are now in the driver's seat, not him. You want him to come to YOU begging to do ANYTHING to repair the damage. That is the lack of control he MUST feel in order to put his heart in the place it needs to be in to repair the damage and heal the marriage.

Is this, then, all about power and control? Well, kind of. Except you aren't wielding power to hurt anyone or to control him in a negative way. You are the sane one right now. You are the one who is not in the throes of a harmful and powerful addiction. You are the one that has the RULES and demands that will SAVE your family. The list I gave you and what you have added to it are not unreasonable or selfish or controlling demands. They are NECESSITIES to the healing of your marriage. Without those things happening, the possibility of a reoccurence or incomplete healing are too high. The list requires surrender and brokenness on his part, he won't get there until he stands at the brink of losing everything, or thinking he already has.

Does that make sense?

And Cherubino, I would like to correspond with you, but let's start a new thread, I don't want to get confused between the 2 of you, or threadjack Jaysmom. I'll post a new thread to you.

Thanks,
MSA

MSA...

You are so right. and God has brought me to this point of feeling i believe. I think that I myself have to feel as though i don't really care before he can truly think he has lost everything.

the other night when he hung up on me...he knew...i have taken all that i can take. that is why he called at 4:45 in the morning to apologize. there i said i am almost to the end of my rope and he said..."i know you are" since then i have not said much about anything. i speak to him about our son. and on a couple of occassions i have commented about things, but mainly need to things. Very firm and letting him know...i won't do it any longer. that is why he spent time with us last night and wants to again.

Hanging in there. i will be fine which ever way the road goes. God's will is for him to be with us and not what he is doing. I pray for God's will. But i also pray for what is best for me and jay.

Another thing, can you set the phone to auto-answer w/o ringing in the night? Good grief, just because he's up at all hours in complete chaos doesn't mean you need to be! After all, you have a child to care for during the day, and just when you are finally maybe getting some good sleep, his tornado comes waltzing in at 4:45am to TALK and apologize? Apologies can wait until the sun is UP!!!

Just my thoughts. Seems at a glance very self-centered of him, to call you in the middle of the night. My WH used to wake me up out of a sound sleep to self-righteously announce, "You're right. I lied. I did have sex with her again." to which I would roll over, look at him, and go, "Oh, I know. That sucks. Good night." Good grief.

MSA

Msa,

Today i am a little discouraged, but i think its mostly PMS. anyway i told H last night that he had to end it VERY SOON, and there had to be NC at all with OW. he didn't respond. i told him i was sick of this mess and the lying, especially to our son. ( who he lied to yesterday, and jay cried all afternoon because he told him he could see him )

He listened to me again, and then came to the house afterward, talking to me about work, etc. i was nice, but didn't really talk to him much. Not like i normally would.

he didn't call this morning, maybe that is why i am discouraged some. today is his really hectic day though. but i have decided that i am only going to give him a while longer...few days maybe a week, and then... his world will have to crash.

i am tired of this...God doesn't expect me to sit and be used and hurt like this...he is still telling me to wait, but i don't think it will be much longer. it will be hard to do complete NC but at this point, i could just not answer my phone a couple of days and he will be in panic mode. He is pretty much to that point.

You know what i think the biggest problem is right now...His pride. its bigger than life. He doesn't want to have to lose face. he doesn't want anyone knowing, especially his mom, friends. I believe he wants it over...but his pride is keeping him from breaking it off with her, she will see who HE REALLY IS, then he will have to face his mom, she will know...his best friend, my family will know....and then most importantly I WILL KNOW. he isn't there yet and it may take, as you said, him thinking he has lost everything....before he does anything.

is that how he loses his pride? of course i know the A is an addiction, but he seems ready for that to be over...i really feel in my heart. any advice on the pride thing, or basically should i stick to what i am doing? jaysmom

I would say to, for Jay's sake, cover up for your WH. Not to ANYONE else (enabling) but just for Jay's sake. Make up some reason that your WH probably won't be able to come over or leave it open (even though WH made his visit sound certain), etc... I know some here might disagree, but he's only 3. The story doesn't need to be elaborate, just 3 year old terms, "Dad got busy, he wants to see you but he can't today. We'll call him pretty soon when he gets back." Whatever... I hate to see kids affected by the fog, it's just too painful, and they have no way to understand. Don't ever speak negatively or in frustration to your son about your WH. He'll thank you for it later (your H and Jay).

God doesn't expect you to live like this. Just follow that message of patience and waiting. Rather than not answer your phone, if it's time I would recommend a full-on Plan B, which is to say, write him the Plan B letter and TELL him not to call or contact you. Just not answering your phone makes him worry where you are - he needs to understand this isn't a game of "I want to get some control by not talking to you right now, try back later." This ties in to pride as well, your question.

Recovery of A is an addiction, and to get to the place where your WH needs to be in, he needs to be broken. He needs to surrender his own will in favor of God's will for his life. He needs to have a spirit of brokenness and humilty, remorse and repentance. This is the opposite of pride. Look up pride in your Bible concordance or at http://wwww.gospelcom.net and you will find useful passages about pride. Proverbs in particular, as I'm sure you know! It may be time for Plan B, how long have you been in Plan A, 2 months? A true plan A? Usually Plan A is 3-6 months, and it often does NOT work, which is to say Plan B is often necessary. Refresh your reading on Plan A & Plan B, and pray over it.

MSA

well..MSA...

my H is getting more on my nerves by the second. But a good get on my nerves. He is calling and coming by and really acting differently. Not mushy or anything.

He hates when i act finished with him, or refer to us not being together. changes the subject, etc.

He is trying to come home, i can sense it.

Is it normal to start feeling as if God may have left me? Even though i know he hasn't it just feels like he is further away. I keep on praying, reading, etc.... at times i almost feel as though i am being tried over and over by different things...by satan to see if my faith will waiver. but i keep on, keeping on. My friend told me it was normal, that God was still working on my H and that it only felt like that, just to keep in His word.

I know that my H is under alot of conviction. He never minded going to church, in fact he holds our pastor so high and respects him so much that it is odd to me what he said today...jay asked him about going to church sunday and he replied "i work on sunday's i can't" "i just don't get done in time" this has never been the reaction of my H. yes, there have been times work wasn't finished in time but he seemed resentful about it. I guess that is normal, for him in his situation.

Maybe its the pride thing. its bigger than life. but he is worrying he is losing me. he is beginning to really get scarred i don't feel the same. so obvious. I just keep it up...because...i feel it. if he doesn't come back to me broken, and admitting his A, begging, pleading...then i don't want him. Gosh that feels good. please pray that he will listen to God. how miserable he will be if he doesn't.

hope you are well. the patients are calling...i must go!! speak with you soon! jaysmom

As to your feelings about GOd, I think what you're feeling is normal, and I think your response is good.

As to your analysis of your H's behavior, I think your'e right on.

Have you exposed?