Also, if he claims no contact, you may want to provide him with the withdrawal info from this site. It may give him some insight into his own feelings.

If he is in NC and wants to work on the marriage, or have an honest relationship with you of any kind, he should be willing to be an open book.

I got some info out of my WH by letting him know that his dishonesty was the reason I couldn't put our M behind me and move on. During the relapse he was very dishonest. After I found out about the relapse, he was still living home because it was Christmas. He claimed he was not sleeping with OW. Finally he admitted that he was. That disrespect was the nail in the coffin when he moved out the second time. Not when you are sleeping in my bed...

MSA

MSA,

i have been trying to do most of those things without really knowing i was...i have lost almost 40 lbs during all of this...and he has noticed...but says nothing.

He still hasn't come clean to me, he is still in somewhat of denial...and i believe that they are still trying to keep it going.

Listen to this...he kept Jay yesterday..i came to pick him up after work.. i am trying to just be...you know...not say much etc...he says..."why are you so grumpy?" i am like ...OH MY GOSH!!!! i said...dear...i have invested love in someone for 11 years that just lied to me and cheated on me. he says...OH...really.

i try to drop it. He just keeps on and i can't take it...i told him...look YOU have cheated on me and Jay for the last 4 months with...***** and you have been caught...she has confessed to her husband in front of me...i heard it...and YOU apparently are the only one around who doesn't know what you are/have been doing.

He gets defensive. He still is in denial. then i left and about 2 hours later he just shows up, knocking on the front door. I said..what are you doing? he said Jay wanted me to come down.

this is soooo hard. I don't know what my next step is. I try to act like i am moving on..because i am trying to...HE JUST WON'T LET ME. I did tell him also...that i didn't appreciate him telling other people about our marriage and not talk to me about it. I said i deserve to know...before your BF does. he said what are you talking about. (He never told me he talked to his BF the other day.) i said you told him that you were thru with me...WHY WON'T YOU TELL ME THAT? he said...i never told anyone i was thru...i haven't told anyone anything about me and you.

i don't know what to think about him anymore MSA...i know BFH wouldn't lie...he just wants the best and i know that my H probably did tell him that...out of anger towards me.

MSA...this is so difficult because i am NEXT DOOR. This may have been resolved long ago if he didn't know where i was all the time. I have been staying very busy and gone alot...but it is hard with a 3 year old to be gone as much as is called for now.

i need boundaries...but what? He is paying our house payment...if i refuse him coming in...i think he will throw that in my face.

Why MSA is he being such a freak? why not come clean to me? He doesn't want to lose me and doesn't want an end to this M...i think that is fairly clear at this point...but he wants to do nothing to fix, or stay in it.

help...need suggestions. jaysmom

I think he isn't coming clean because he doesn't want to stop what he's doing and/or thinks you won't forgive him. Maybe if you play out for him what recovery would look like if he were being honest; that this isn't about you holding this over his head for the rest of his life, this is about you guys getting honest and healing, and fixing your family for J. Telling him of some of the things you have learned here about radical honesty, POJA, LBs, ENs, how marriages can be made better...?

well...msa...

he kept jay yesterday and then went out for only an hour or so ...then came back down to see us. BF said today...you know he couldn't say he was coming to see Jay because he had kept him all day...only one reason he keeps coming down when he has jacob all day...something to think about hmmm?

i decided to lay low for a while...let him come around as much as possible (which is every single day) and hang with us...he needs to be around his family...maybe he is very uncomfortable with me and needs to try and establish friendship, etc with me? i decided also and told him...i wasn't going to mention anything because he obviously wasn't ready to talk...but that at some point either way our M ended up...jay and i deserve an explanation, so eventually he will have to discuss matters.

keep praying...jaysmom

I will keep praying for you, I really hope him being around more is a good thing. IF he has broken it off with OW (or she with him) then I think it IS good. If NOT, then you run the risk of being his emotional security blanket and a lot more fence-sitting.

But hey, you exposed to OWH. That is major. Now I just wish that your H would come clean to you and want to recover his M. You can TELL him you & Jay deserve an explanation, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one though. I wish your H was willing to live a transparent life to you to PROVE that he will be accountable for his time, phone calls, schedule, etc so that you KNOW he COULDN'T be seeing OW. I wish he would do a NC letter to her.

MSA

Hey Mrs Stow!

Happy Friday to you! Thank goodness it is! I have been on here a while today trying to find things on "FOG" but i can't find what i wanted to know.

I know i have asked you before...but does the fog ever go away? does it ever clear?

I think my WH is coming around some. He has been at our house every night this week except monday. I think the exposing did some good anyway. Even if they are still trying to continue the A, their guilt will eventually consume them or....they will have to leave their spouses one right?

I think if they are continuing...they sure are brave...and it sure doesn't make sense to try and keep it up with their spouses...if they don't want them...they were exposed...go to each other if thats what you want...right?

well anyway...yesterday H was very sad acting...making me wonder if it's withdrawl...again...couldn't find anything much on that here but i haven't done alot of looking. he spends longer each day at home with us. Last night we just played games with Jay and he seemed as though he was just really worried or bothered but still wanted to be there (not like he was forcing himself to be there i mean) and he told Jay he would see him again tonight. He really seems to be trying.

I think he doesn't want to talk about it just yet. He just doesn't want to face it i guess...but he will have to sometime, or our M will be over. His choice.

we will see...i am hanging in there. We seem to get along just fine. he goes back to Dr. next week...i am going to give it a bit longer in Plan A...give the ADs time to kick in ( he will be going up in a couple of weeks...he has been on them 3 so far ) then if nothing changes...i will file, or move or something...something must get him to reality, if he can't do it ...maybe i haven't given it enough time...it has only been a week...

oh well...anyway...does the fog lift? does reality hit? and another ? did your H spend much time with your daughters after he left, and did he think he didn't love you? did he remove your pictures from his wallet, etc? did he really think he loved this OW? it is just so uncomprehendable to me...does the fog really do that to them? i guess i just need some advice on the fog? any help?

hope you have a good weekend...Jaysmom

Oh, yes, it lifts... with months of NC... my H spent some time with the girls after he left, took them places, and totally for a while thought he didn't love me. He ABSOLUTELY thought he loved OW, I had to hear it all the time, him choosing her over me & DDs. The fog absolutely really does that to them. Absolutely. As well as justifying it with "ILYBINILWY" (I love you but I'm not in love with you) which is code for "You don't make me feel the romantic adrenaline rush that this affair does." Explaining that love is a VERB does NO GOOD to someone in the fog. It's all about FEELINGS, not about doing.

I'm going to dig up 2 things for you to read - one on Withdrawal (so you can recognize the signs or show to your WH), and another from Dr. Harley on why they lie...

MSA

’FOG’ AND WITHDRAWAL by Suzet*

In my experience as a FWW, it’s possible for ‘fog’ to slip back from time to time during the withdrawal period, especially during early, intense withdrawal. Often early withdrawal and the ‘fog’ go hand in hand and it will be normal for your FWS to have a ‘foggy’ thinking pattern during this stage. The 'fog' lifts gradually as the withdrawal lessens and it will get better with time and patience.

An A IS an addiction and it does affect the brain chemistry of a WS/FWS. It is a feedback system where some behavior causes good feelings (chemicals) to be released and gradually you become dependent on those feelings. So thinking of the OP is sort of self-medicating when the FWS feels a little down.

It can take weeks to months for this to pass and that’s why No Contact is so hard because some of the residual feelings and response linger for a long time. With time, the "feelings" attached to remembering the OP will fade.

It has been suggested and even done that when the FWS start to really think of OP, that they call or talk with the BS. This behavior will start to replace one set of feelings and memories for another, sort of like quitting smoking. This is something you can discuss with your FWS.

LENGTH OF WITHDRAWAL AND EFFECT OF WIHTDRAWAL ON THE FWS

Withdrawal is not the same for each person and it affects each person differently. For some people, withdrawal is very long and intense, and some people don’t experience any withdrawal at all (no withdrawal is not very common, but it does happen to some FWS’s).

I believe the length and intensity of withdrawal depends on many factors such as the length and intensity of the A and the emotional involvement; the way the A ended and if there is still unresolved issues; personality; ‘sensitivity’ level of the WS etc. A good estimation of the time of withdrawal can be the length of the A. According to Dr Harley (see quote beneath) the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, but in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade. As I’ve said, it’s not the same for each person and every situation is different.

I think the time of withdrawal also depends if the WS were friends with the OP before it progressed to an A. It’s more difficult to recover from an A where it started out as friendship comparing to a situation where people start the A from the beginning (like a ONS) and have not yet get emotionally connected and learned to care for the OP.

IMO it also depends if the FWS suffers from depression or any other mental/psychiatric disorders. In my situation, ‘real’ recovery from my withdrawal started after I received medical help for OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder) with associated depression and anxiety. I also had unresolved issues regarding my childhood and myself at the time and I believe those things also had an influence on my personal recovery.


Quote:
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From Dr Harley’s Q & A column:

Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.


Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.


It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again.


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HOW TO ACT AND HELP THE FWS GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWAL

It’s important for your FWS to let his/her feelings out if she/he wants to heal. Bottling up and repressing of issues will eventually lead to depression. I’ve received the help from a wonderful, woman, Christian Counselor (who have also became a great friend and confidant of mine), but in spite of this I’ve developed depression and was put on anti-depressants. It will help if your FWS goes to a professional, outside, trusting, Christian person like an IC or pastor if necessary. If he/she starts developing depression, medication can be very helpful... The medication really helped me tremendously during the withdrawal period.

A MC is very valuable for the recovery of a M, but many times the help of an individual counselor (IC) or any other professional, outside person (like a pastor), can be very helpful too. The MC can be used to have one-on-one sessions with both the BS and FWS. An outside person is not emotionally involved and can help with personal recovery and to get feelings out. The IC can also address other personal issues the FWS or BS may have. I believe personal recovery and marital recovery goes hand in hand and sometimes it’s necessary to address personal issues first. A FWS in withdrawal don’t always have the courage to be totally honest and open in front of the BS about their feelings (out of fear that they will hurt the BS again) and this is the other reason why it’s important for the FWS to find a trusting outside person they can talk to.

It will also help if your FWS can read and post here. It will help him/her to get his/her feelings out. Support and help from experienced members here will also help him/her through this difficult time. While I was in early withdrawal, these boards also helped to clear my ‘fog’. Although I was still in withdrawal, these boards helped me realize that my ‘bond’ with OM wasn’t such a special and unique ‘friendship’, but in fact a very sinful and damaging emotional betrayal towards my dear H.

Here is some suggestion on how to help & support your FWS through withdrawal:

1. Be your FWS’s greatest friend and confidant. Encourage him/her to confide in you and create an environment & atmosphere that will allow him/her to feel safe and secure to reveal his/her innermost feelings to you. Maybe you can start to be honest with him/her about you innermost thoughts and feelings and in the process encourage him/her to open up towards you too without the fear that you will Love Bursting or criticize or judge him/her.

2. Be you FWS’s ‘sounding board’ during this difficult time. Whenever possible and whenever you feel strong enough, listen to him/her with empathy, understanding & care. Continue to communicate your negative feelings too, but do it without being judgmental or love bursting. I know this is a lot to ask and will still be hard to do sometimes, but you WILL receive the benefits, especially when both of you are further in recovery!

3. Realize that your FWS will go through stages and feelings of guilt, self-rejection etc. During this times, try to let him feel accepted, tell her that she made a mistake, but has decided to turn away and follow the right path. During times like this remind her that he is forgiven by both you and God.

4. Assure and tell your FWS that he/she must feel free to talk to you whenever he/she needs it of feels like it. Encourage him/her to speak to you whenever he/she feels ‘down’. If it feels okay with you, ask him/her about his/her feelings and show interest and concern about his/her feelings out of your own. As a FWW it was very difficult to overcome my own pain, loss and grief and on the same time dealt with the pain I've caused my H. I know it would have meant the world to me if my H could ask me about my feelings, without me initiating the subject.

5. If you FWS needs to talk and you feel it’s not the right time for you at that moment, have the courage to tell him/her that you really want to listen to him/her, but on another time when you feel stronger and ready to listen. At the same time your FWS must also have the understanding and care to allow you to be honest towards her too. This is really a give and take situation. Your W must also encourage YOU to speak to HER whenever you need it or feels like it. On this way both of you will help each other to heal and recover. On this way you will become each other’s greatest friends and confidants.

6. On a practical note: Plan events (holidays, concerts, movie nights, whatever) in the near future to attend together. It helps to give the FWS (and the BS) something positive to look forward to.

Remember, the pain ‘deserved’ for your FWS is real, and the healing to some extent really takes time. So, be patient with both you and your S and give it time and patience.

Symptoms of the Wayward Spouse and Recognizing Withdrawal

WITHDRAWAL, RECOVERY AND MEETING THE NEEDS OF THE FWS

Recovery starts as soon as there is NC with the OP. During this time the BS is advised to only fill the EN’s the FWS ALLOWS the BS to meet. This is so because the FWS is in withdrawal and won’t be able to concentrate solely on the BS and relationship. However, this will get better with time and as the fog starts to clear. Give it time for at least 6 months. During this time, don’t put pressure on your FWS with too much ‘relationship talk’. Give him/her some time and in the meantime, continue with a good plan A. No LBers. Also concentrate on yourself and do things you enjoy. As soon as your FWS is ready, he/she will start to open up towards you and you will start to notice some efforts from him/her. But give it TIME and PATIENCE. BE there for him/her when she needs you (the guidelines I have posted above), but try to keep things uncomplicated, unemotional, light and pleasant.


Quote:
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From Dr Haley’s Q & A column:
As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.


But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing.


Sometimes I tell spouses to just avoid each other until the withdrawal stage passes because all the effort to be kind and thoughtful is easily wasted until they start feeling better.


It's the stage of recovery after withdrawal that gives spouses the best opportunity to learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs and overcome Love Busters. Spouses should save their most tolerant mood for that stage, where they could both be receptive to each other's care. And that will be the subject of next week's column: Learning to meet each other's needs after an affair.


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Keep in mind that your FWS's conflict during withdrawal is internal and the BS should not take comments made by the FWS during this time personally. Try to convince yourself you are dealing with a sick charge if that helps you to remove yourself. Try to remember that the feelings the WS felt during the A and the feelings the FWS feel during withdrawal are real EVEN if they are based on an addiction to a fantasy.

Do not be surprised if one hour is good, one hour is bad, then one half day, then one day bad and good, and so one. The reason is the FWS is SLOWLY processing what happened. Every time a WS moves closer to realizing the impact of what they did or what they potentially did, it causes stress, which in turn causes the fog to settle in again, which in turn causes the FWS want to contact the OP. The mind cannot let us see the pain we caused all at once, it would be too overwhelming. Realize that wanting to initiate contact, or hoping that the OP will contact, or wishing for "accidental" contact will happen. This is a fact. It is not a rejection of the BS. Let your FWS speak openly about that - it is a way to help alleviate the stress/desire. A's thrive on secrecy. It do not thrive well in the light of day.

An A is a selfish, destructive, dishonest act. It’s said that the more "honorable" a person is, the deeper they fall into a seduction and therefore it makes sense that it is harder for a basically decent person to climb back out into reality.

FOR WS’s – GUIDELINES TO HELP YOU GET THROUGH WITHDRAWAL:

1. Keep yourself busy, although you may not feel like doing anything. Getting busy will keep your mind from wandering to thoughts of OP. Spend as little time alone as possible. Go to the movies, a concert or a play, whatever you enjoy...as long as you gets busy! Post here, pray, call old friends you may have been neglecting or call current friends you spending too little time with.

2. Get involved with ministry/community service/charity or anything similar. Helping others will take your mind off yourself.

3. Go to your Medical Practitioner and/or Counselor and get antidepressants if necessary. Don’t hesitate to seek professional and medical help if you feel it's necessary.

4. Show love to your S, even when it feels a bit unnatural, fake or forced at first. The acts of love became more real and heartfelt the more they are repeated. When you actively show love and receive feedback from your S, it will become pleasurable to repeat those things. The more you do them, the more real they will become. And spend time with your mate. Do something different. Get out of the rut. Develop new interest. Have fun together. Work at becoming friends again.

5. Make a conscious effort to avoid things that will remind you positively of the OP. Whether it's romantic songs or movies that you enjoyed, hobbies or pastimes you had in common, or just dwelling mentally on conversations or times you enjoyed together...you must do your best to avoid dwelling on them. Thoughts of the OP will pop up and the temptation is to daydream about them at length but the good news is, as you AVOID CONTACT with the OP and having NO CONTACT, these things will fade. The OP itself will become more of a blurry memory. When these memories come up, do whatever you have to do to stop thinking about them. If the OP pops up in your mind, turn your thoughts to happy memories of times with your spouse. Pick up a book, watch a TV show, read the Bible, call a friend, just try hard not to dwell on them. Again, with this, you will find it easier to do as time passes and there is no contact.

6. Constantly remind yourself of the great things about your spouse, and the not-so-great things about the OP. Be honest with yourself. There are areas that you KNOW your spouse is superior to the OP. If you can't think of any, grab on to ANY positive thing you can think about in regards to your spouse. Think of the things that attracted you to your spouse initially, or that you've always liked or admired or respected about him/her and focus on that. Think on these things. Remind yourself of things about the OP that were definitely negative. Magnify them if you have to. Remind yourself that your spouse have it over the OP big time in a couple of major ways e.g:

i) Your spouse didn't indulge in an A with a married man/women.

ii) They love you enough to want to stay with you and stand by you, in spite of the pain you caused him/her.

The above two things alone show you the kind of love and integrity from your BS.

7. Remind yourself constantly that love is something you DO, not something you feel. Love is meeting someone's needs. Love is action. Feelings come and go...especially fantasy-based and fog-based feelings.

8. Develop a good & strong support system which can help & encourage you to maintain NC and stay committed to it. You can accomplish this by taking the following steps:

i) Be honest & open with your BS. Your S must become your greatest friend and confidant. Your S is the key and most important person who can help you to stay committed and maintain NC with OP.

ii) If you have close friends of the same sex who are trustworthy, religious and set a high importance on M and the well-being of both you and your S, then confided in them. The same goes with family members. On days you feel ‘down’, weak and/or vulnerable to contact OP, you can contact them in stead and go to them for support, go out for a cup of coffee with one of them or whatever.

iii) Seek professional help & support. Go to a trusting, outside person like a Christian counselor/therapist or pastor. Make sure the person you seek out is religious and values the importance of marriage in general and the importance of fidelity in a marriage.

8. Know that there is HOPE! There is definitely hope for your marriage and your feelings for the OP can fade. Keep trying, and don't beat yourself up when you have mental and emotional setbacks, because you will. Just look at the big picture and keep going. Realize that recovery is not necessarily about strength, but most importantly the choice and realization that NC is the only way to go. It’s also about the desire to regain your own integrity in spite of your weakness and temptation to contact the OP during withdrawal and early recovery.

A Dr. Willard Harley quote:
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Should an affair be revealed?

I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt.

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.

Some affairs, those like the husbands of R.J. and M.S., are discovered by their spouses. But as R.J. and M.S. have seen, knowing about an affair is only the first step toward recovery.

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hel]. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
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Also this from Dr. Harley:

Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male). His friend and his wife do almost everything together recreationally. He wrote to say that I was dead wrong about his particular spouse, and that my advice that friends outside of marriage should be same-sex friends was paranoid. He trusted his wife, and she could spend as much time with this friend as she wanted to. My response was for him to write me again in three years and let me know if he felt the same way after he discovered that his wife and best friend were having an affair (be sure to read my Q&A columns on recreational companionship, Part 1 and Part 2).
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thanks for the post! Lots of info. much appreciative. i only scanned over for now but will come back and read more later.

I am thinking it probably isn't withdrawl. I think he is still seeing her. I don't have that gut wrenching feeling but i just don't think it is over yet. although...they sure are brave. I am from NC and alienation of affection was born here....and i have been reading up on it!!!

You know after i prayed this morning i was thinking about you and your situation and remembering one of your posts telling me how similar you thought our situations were. I realized at that point that God had sent you to read mine. I thought...he knew i could benefit from you and you could help me through this....THANK YOU! not that i am glad you had to go thru it but....you have recovered and your M better now and getting better.

i just don't get it. why do they insist on keeping their spouses? at least your H thought he loved her and wanted to be with her...not that that was better but my H just doesn't make sense to me...or her either. maybe they are planning something? who knows?

my H has spent everynight with us...at least 2 hours each evening. Last night, he wasn't home when i got there, he came in around 8. then comes down from his mothers right after getting in. He changes into sweats from what he wears out. He never wants me to see him in his "new" attire. He is wearing things i used to beg...i mean BEG him to wear...and he would say...i don't like that...well guess what...he does now, but i only see him in them if i happen to be at his moms when he comes in or something. it's just weird. He was in a good mood last night, which makes me think...they still are together. My BF went by where she works and she was there but left between 4-6. doesn't that look suspicious? But does she not fear that i might tell her hubby again? and what is up with him....does he just accept it and oh well it?

oh msa...i think i am going to have to go to the big guns. why...well because i just am not sure i can handle his crap anymore. I mean...as my dad said yesterday...what is he doing? either stay with me or let me go!!! AMEN DADDY! he comes down giving me the impression he wants to try and come home, work on us, be a family. but then does nothing to come home, work on us, or be a family. I am a good girl. Been a good wife. good mom. good friend. just plain good. not tooting my own horn or anything but i deserve some good in return not a half *ss husband. He was always so good to me, well he isn't anymore.

crappy dad, husband, friend, son, co-worker. just not the same man he was. i can't make him and apparently God is having trouble as well. oh...i am venting today.

MSA...i am thinking of filing or moving one. i am going to have to for my own sanity. My son watches for him out the window and he is giving him the impression he will come home. i can't handle another hit from him. i just can't. Jay can't ...not fair to my baby. he wants this woman...he can have her. (i think i told you about her tag saying spoiled 1....GAG!) (and he claims he left me because of my spending habits...he always called me spoiled...but in an affectionate way...he would always say he spoiled me...and he did.. but please....HE DOESN'T KNOW SPOILED UNTIL HE STAYS WITH THAT!!!)

he would have to work 3 jobs to keep her up!! her oldest daughter...not too many years younger than he is!!! and the youngest 16...she won't get child support but for 2 more years...my H is near bankrupt. that is what she is keeping her H for!!!!!

today my MIL came down and told me she thought his problem is mainly mental. I agree to a degree, but come on...the A has to end before you can fix anything..mental or what.

i just am not sure what God is telling me to do now. I feel like i have been deserted. i know God is with me...but i can't figure out what he wants me to do.

MSA...he will miss me won't he? he misses me anyway, but maybe i should do as you did...to make him realize this isn't and hasn't been a game, this is our lives he has been just tossing to the side.
Jay and i left for the rest of the weekend and came down to stay with my step-dad ( he is currently serving active duty..Army, Ft. Jackson S.C.--about 2.5 hours from home...he's got it made...nice townhouse...)

didn't tell H i was coming...he said last night...see you tomorrow...thought it would do him good to know we are not just sitting there waiting for him to give us 5 mins of his time. I told MIL this am we were coming down, let him sweat it about us...he won't call (doesn't know i have a new cell, and he would not call my mom or s-dad)

you think if i leave...that the fog will lift? do you think as much time as he spends with us if he thought he had lost me, i mean really really lost me....it would make a difference? He would miss me wouldn't he? i mean why else does he come around SOOOO MUCH? any other suggestions? JAYSMOM

God absolutely puts people in our lives even before we need them sometimes! I have NO DOUBT about it.



Oh yes, he will miss you when you are out of his life. The trick is to make him see that without actually making it happen long-term! Filing for D is dangerous because it gets the situation very political/financial/emotional/legal etc... just all charged up which you don't have as much of right now.

What about the "Dobson" letter - the opening the cage door, I am moving on letter - followed up by some new ground rules for him (like not "hanging around the house" etc) - telling him that the two of you need to start preparing for D, since it looks like that's where this is headed. If he looks at you funny when you say that, you can remind him that HIS dishonesty and choices are choosing divorce; separated people aren't separated just for their health - it's a trial to make sure they want to be DIVORCED from each other. Throwing out some concepts that eventually you will need to disentange from each other's lives because you will EVENTUALLY want to start dating etc... and getting him to realize that this "dropping in all the time" thing at the house won't fly with your new husband, Jay's stepdad. That type of thing - don't overplay it, just a comment or two here or there maybe...

What do you think?

MSA

i did think about that. the letter i mean. its funny, my BF and i went last week took our kids to Mcdonalds to play and just hang out so we could talk and i actually took the "love must be tough" book in and showed it to her.

she made me bring a notebook with me and said...i'll help you start a letter to H and we had planned to do that but didn't really get much done. she looked at the book for a while and thought it was a good idea too.

i just am not sure how much good it would do. He just shows up. i have told him before he shouldn't just come down, etc....but that has been a while back and he was more in the fog then. Now that it has been exposed maybe things would be different...i dunno? i guess what i am saying is i can do the letter, but i think he will just shrug it off as me trying to "get him to come home" or something...he would just in a few days start coming around again...if he didn't just continue doing it anyway. My point being....HOW do i do the letter and put my foot down and show him i mean it? he did take the SAA book and i am worried he will think i am just doing something from it ...he has the contract...and he knows what i want him to do...but i don't know how to take a stand behind it.

i know it sounds like i am being a weenie and maybe i am. i want to do whatever it takes to fix our M. my feelings for him are definitely not the same and moving on and without him doesn't terrify me like it did. but being a product of divorce myself and having a very difficult time growing up and even STILL trying to please MY parents ( H saw this and it killed him...he commented all the time about how hard this had always been on me and how it wasn't fair i had to lie to one and cover to another just to keep peace between my parents...HE ALWAYS hated it for me...that is why i am so boggled about his actions now)

i told him...the day i exposed...your convictions of keeping jay away from alcohol are as strong as mine about divorce. I NEVER ever wanted to put a child through this and HE KNEW THAT!!!! he knows and even has commented to me during all of this he didn't want to have to pull jay back and forth...he will say "it's not jacob's fault" (darn right it's yours....i think well...dear it's not MINE either...did you forget that?)

anyway...my whole point and question is...i don't want to be a bully. i don't want to seem like i am "making him pay" i just don't want to seem anything but TO THE POINT...

so how do i put my foot down about keeping him from doing all of the fence sitting and cake eating he is doing. HOW DO I MAKE HIM REALIZE....i just might be thru with him. HOW do i get him to be broken and see...you can't play with our lives and just waltz right back whenever HE feels like he is ready to be H and daddy again. How do i get away from the "oh i was just depressed, i didn't know what i was doing....i am on medicine now...i am so sorry, it will never happen again...SPEECH)

I can say...if you want to visit with Jay you have to take him with you...and then i can see what will be next....either...1. he will take him back to his mothers without commenting and acting a little defensive..."OKAY" ...then after a day or two just ease time back in at home with me...spending more and more...THEN 2. he will start an argument about..."well i am paying for this house it is mine...i have every right" or 3.. and lastly head down...pitiful feel sorry for me...i am just a bad person, bad H, bad father...which guilts me into worrying about his mental state and what he could do....

YOU see i can't win with this man. He really is the love of my life, a wonderful H, father, man in general. but he is and has been mental. He is just mental , ( i do say lovingly). BE A MAN...everyone says...fess up and do what your gonna do.

but he doesn't. what is up? i know he just cannot bear to think i will leave...but i have told him...i will leave if you don't ever fess up and come clean.

I gotta put something behind what i have been saying and what my contract says...like i did with the exposing don't i? he didn't think i would ever tell OWH, so i have to put something behind my contract too, but what? think about it...and give me what you got!

gotta go shop...one good thing about my parents being divorced...my mother is still haunted by the guilt...(it was her fooling around...she did marry him and he is GREAT, i love my step parents very much...but i always wished...my parents were together...my mom still apologizes to my dad even to this day...sometimes...but she still suffers from the guilt to this day...she still blames my dad to me...even though i know better and my father never told me anything...) any way...back to the good...the guilt kills her still...so she buys me pretty much anything...

ahh...maybe i shouldn't let her...but if it makes her feel better...i'll let her...she's got money to blow and i have things to get...

let me know what you think i should do....JAYSMOM

You have to mean what you say in the letter. It's not about being manipulative - it's about being DONE with him, it's about moving on, it's about surrendering trying to control what he's going to do. You have to be ready to stand behind it - he will sense that you are if you really are. Don't do the letter if you aren't there yet. You are letting him know that this is TOO PAINFUL for you to continue to endure. It's not about "I won't" so much as "I just can't"... make sense? That's what will be scary to him.



You need to have a PLAN of moving on that you can get him to believe in. For example, imagine he wasn't making your house payment... where would you live? How would you pay for it? How much child support can you expect (there are online calculators to help with this)? Who will be your attorney for the divorce? What type of visitation schedule will you work out? How will you divide the assets? Maybe these are things he needs to see you thinking about for reality to hit him? At least the "where will you live" part. As I said yesterday, the rest of it can get very emotional/legal/political/upsetting... and is best left out if possible for now. But he needs to see you might just MOVE ON. That is what will scare him into coming to his senses I think.


Boy, can I relate. It's a difficult argument, dealing with such a person, believe me I know.

Response to #1 - Yup, take him to your Mom's. I'll come get him at 3 o'clock. (Change the locks to keep him from backsliding on this?)

Response to #2 - Well maybe a judge needs to decide how this will work with the house then. I thought you wanted Jay to stay in his home, if that's not the case maybe I better start looking for an apartment.

Response to #3 - (recognizing this as the clear manipulation that it is) I'm sorry you feel bad about yourself right now. Jay needs and wants to spend time with you, he loves you, what time should he plan on?

You have to decide ahead of time what the deal is going to be beforehand, so that however he reacts doesn't affect how things are going to work. i.e. if parenting time is going to be at his Mom's house, fine. If at your house, fine. But decide in advance. I don't think he should be coming & going, even if he is paying the mortgage. Him stopping that would be the point where you would need to go file for separation or divorce, so that you knew how much $ you could RELY on.

Thoughts?
MSA

Monday again. why can't i have my old life back? i want to work 3 days a week and come home to my loving H and son after i get done.

hey MSA. i feel like Ross from FRIENDS today. HA!

Jay and I had a great weekend. i hated having to come home. My mom dropped us off last night and she had not been gone more than 5 mins. and 'knock' 'knock'.

H was kinda ill last night. Friday he was in a happier mood, thursday...grouchy....everyday it is something different. that is what makes me wonder about withdrawl or is it his medication, or just that he is an adulterer (spelling looks funny???), oh well you know what i mean.

if it was withdrawl i would think he would want to speak about things...then again..."what girl?", "what phone" God help me!

i just didn't feel like foolin' with him much last night but i was trying to grin and bare it...until he said again (as he has everyday for 2 weeks) "i have to go back to the Dr. Wednesday" finally i said...yes and you need to be honest with her...do you want me to go with you?

No. ( just a plain no.) i said okay. He said again...gotta get some more "fruitloop" medicine. I said honey...why do you keep saying that...there is nothing wrong with it. You make it out to be awful...it happens. I said you can't help that your sick...(well that was the wrong thing to say apparently)

"i am not SICK" (i wish i had've thought in time to say...well when you come running back saying you were sick you didn't know what you were doing...but i didn't)

i said...okay then your not sick...but i know you love me and jay and if you were in your "right" mind you would've never done what your doing to us.

Nothing. i got up angry and walked off. i just can't stand him being around without talking about and when something is brought up him still denying. TOTALLY KILLING ME!!!! i am so beginning to just feel nothing and care very little about him. my feelings are shutting down and the thoughts of someone to love me the way i deserve to be...

like i said though...he was rather ill anyway. he was mad i had not called to tell when i would be home...but he didn't exactly admit it..i knew that was alot of it. When he got ready to leave i asked him..."what do you want from me?" nothing. i said...think about it before you respond, and don't be ugly about it...asked him again. both times he just answered nothing (but not angry or anything...just simply stated) then i said...fine ...."then let me go" he turned his back and shut the door.

i opened and followed out the front porch.....i asked why do you come down here..."i come to see a brother, but i won't come anymore.."i said then john...let me go... you are so finished with me...let me go, i cannot do this anymore." he turned, never said a word and walked away. i said..."you never thought i would tell her H, but i did...you don't know what i will do...i can move on without you" he just threw his arm in the air and kept walking.

i wonder...hmmm...is he still in the A. everyone i ask...BFs, MIL, my mom, dad, everyone...says no way. SHE wouldn't...she would be too afraid of her H finding out. but hmm...she was SO VERY TORN UP at church and confessed to her H about it...but then kept it going. Maybe they prepared for me to tell him...maybe her crying and bawling was just part of the plan...in case i tell.

but then what is he hanging around me so much for...? NOTHING MAKES SENSE...I AM DEFINITELY GOING CRAZY!!!!

i am going to have to be very tough and draw some lines. He can claim he is coming to see Jay and i know he is...but he could take him to his mothers...he stays to see me. BF said today..he can't call anymore..now take his visitation away from him. "if he can't spend time with you...then what" she said your gonna have to make him work for it.

what do you think? later! jaysmom

I think I agree with your best friend... I don't know.

I think the A is ongoing. He's a vendor and she's the purchaser, right? So they email at work, right? Instant messages? Even a secret cell or on the work phones? I mean, let's face it, they have ways to communicate throughout the day that you and her H aren't privy to, am I correct?

He just doesn't SOUND like it's over... I mean, why not confess. A normal course of events would seem to be that the two of you discuss what her H told her, what she told him, etc etc... this happened between my H and I all the time. It was very painful to hear, but he always confided in me. I just can't understand his denial continuing!

I don't want him to think you have given up completely, just that he needs to ADMIT and make a CHOICE.

Think more about that Dobson letter???

Did you get a chance to read what Harley said about exposure/denial as I posted above?

MSA

MSA,

i am with you sister! don't you think my H is just looney? i do. again last night...here he comes, stays his usual 1-2 hour visit and leaves. He was more his old self last night. he seemed more relaxed and comfortable with himself.

oh i don't know. I wonder if the A is still ongoing...i like you think it still may be...but then again....there are signs it is not too.

the reason he doesn't confess...goes back to the fact i think, he thinks...i will leave. In his mind i mean. i think MSA, he just can't accept it himself. Honestly, i am NOT making excuses for my H, but he really has been very mental. Really. He has really put a scare in me and the ol' MIL a few times. He has a very strong family history of bipolar and personality disorders. Again not making excuses but i know that he has been suffering lately and this A has only made things WORSE!!!!

i thought about the letter, alot. but i don't think it will do any good. I have given him 2 cards in the past that have pretty much summed alot of things...and i just don't think the letter will be big enough punch.

if the A is still ongoing what do i do? i can find out and tell OWH again...but really would it matter. apparently he is a big pushover and believes what-ever. she still has the same job and her cell is the same (bf called it the other day...she is so into busting them) and her H told me the night i told him...she may have to change jobs and cell #. When i briefly spoke with OWH 2 days after exposure ( he was nice but didn't say much...she was right there or daughter one) he did tell me...they were not in contact with each other...but of course she would say that...but wouldn't she be afraid her H would be checking cell, etc?

Maybe it is possible they planned for this? but if so...why hang on to me. why not be like your H and profess his undying love for her...why not LET ME GO? why come down everyday and hang out and fix my car and leave the light on when he knows i will be late? why 'PLAY' the role to an extent but continue the adultry. same for her. why not run off with who she thinks she loves...if that be the case?

if they are then what? if they are, the fact that i exposed is making things harder right? i mean it doesn't always end immediately after exposure and i knew that...so they could be trying...to keep it up...but if so...

it won't last long right? the guilt and the hiding and worrying about her H and children finding out...that will consume her at least right?

H goes back to Dr. tomorrow. she will increase dosage and maybe in a couple more weeks...things will be better...or i will be in a home.

i'll let you know if anything new happens...jaysmom

Yes, he is just hanging on... why not run off with her? Because he realizes THAT isn't realistic either... my H professed that he thought he was in love with OW, but he never left me . He emailed, called or stopped by almost every single day. I never initiated any contact at all, and I always knew what he was up to... he didn't want to leave me either, just like your H doesn't want to leave you. He wants to HAVE HIS CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.

HE is a fence sitter.

The letter still could work if it really has the right tone to it.

As far as busting them cheating? Some MBers have just started a network where people who live in a geographic area volunteer to but WS's... delivering flowers, pizza, camera in tow. So if you are interested in finding out if there is a volunteer in your area, I will look. Did you say you are in N Carolina? Do I have that right???

Also, don't be so sure that her H is a pushover. He may just be trusting like I was. Or he may not know what to do. Or he may believe her. Or they may be going thru lots of turmoil right now. You just don't know if you aren't talking to him. I would keep that connection up right now, it will undoubtedly come in handy. I'm surprised he never contacts you to see if you suspect anything.

Let me know what's going on; if there is an opportunity to bust him. Does he have a regular route for work, or take "business trips"?

MSA

Yes...he has a regular route. He stops at her store every Friday and Saturday and every other Thursday...(i can't remember if he goes there tomorrow or not??? i think not). She works at a grocery chain, but has NOTHING to do with his job at all. he does not have to go through her, talk to her, etc...that has to do with his job. he is usually in the store around 2 hours or so.

I just talked to my BF and she wants to bust them as much as me...but she did say today...what good will it do? kinda got me down. she said...you know he hasn't confessed anything...that means...he didn't want it to end...so what do you want out of him?

well...dang...just knock me out. He is my H who i love and have a child with. I don't want our M to end...but everyone thinks i am a fool...even my friends now. they say...just move on...you can do better...tell my heart that and the last 11 years of my life...and my little boy.

No i can't MAKE him. i don't think...

oh i don't know...i am just losing it. should i just leave and throw in the towel?

i am down today...

yep i live in N. Carolina...Asheville to be exact. Anyone want to help me out...send them my way...HA!

he doesn't want to lose me...i have said it...it is obvious...but why doesn't he want to keep me?

maybe i should do the letter...???? i just don't think it is big enough...got any other suggestions? jaysmom

one other note...about OWH...he hasn't been able to contact me due to my cell being out of service. i have a new one now (the # i gave him was the old and it was cut off the day after i exposed.)

when i called him, he didn't act like he wanted to talk. he only yes and no'd me. told me they, yes they were praying for us. he only answered my one or 2 questions and i was so uncomfortable because he seemed like he didn't want to speak to me that i just let it go. i could hear someone in the background so it was either her or daughter (which he did NOT want to find out..he made it clear that night) anyway he was nice but...didn't say much. i asked if they were in contact he answered NO not at all.

so now i am afraid to contact him unless i have real reason to. I have thought about telling my H i was going to call him or OW just to get some answers to my ?'s...but i don't think he would care.

i don't say anything to him about the situation any more. he just comes down every night...even after keeping Jay all day...like yesterday. I went by the store she works and so did BF earlier in the day and she wasn't there. i took it to be a possible good sign...if she were off...my H wasn't with her..at all...he had Jay. as you know they planned their Wednesdays in the past because they were off together and he refused to keep Jacob.

i have stopped saying anything ...because i feel like i am talking to a plant. i get more reaction out of my cats when i talk to them. He is like a freakin' teenager rebelling against their parents, strung out on drugs or something. i am just getting tired of all of this crap.

God is working and has been...but doesn't he see...that i am just losing strength and i don't care anymore to fight?

i remember you saying to me...you didn't know what God was doing at the time you filed papers. I think i am getting there MSA. I don't understand what God is doing..i thought he wanted me to work and hang on...why go through all of this for our M to end?

oh well...BF just called and is staking out her store...she is there and my H is next door getting his hair cut...will let you know if she see's anything. Jaysmom

You are not a fool. You have hope. You have to have hope. I think you are NOT crazy to hang on to that hope. I have a lot of hope for you guys. This all takes time. You love him, you have history together, and you have a son together... no matter what anyone says you are right to FIGHT.


You don't need to stop loving someone to stop tolerating their behavior. I loved my husband when I filed for divorce, but I could NO LONGER go on that way.


It's natural to have up & down days. I did not go on anti-depressants during WH's A, but afterwards I do take them sometimes, and you may want to consider it if the feeling persists. In Michigan we have had like almost 20 straight days of no sun... so it's a wonder the entire state isn't on Prozac.


I will check on the area with the Affair Busters and let you know.

He doesn't think it's going to come to that somehow... he still thinks he can figure out a plan to get himself out of this hairy sitch.

You won't know unless you try. Also, you can't really Plan B with him next door. You can make sure your boundaries are enforced... I have very mixed feelings about him hanging around the house so much when he won't be honest, but maybe if you talk enough and get close enough he will disclose the truth. Does he drink at all? Loose lips sink ships, you know.

MSA