Well, I have been reading the posts here, and I'd like to share mine to get some input on what I should do and what I'm doing right...
My wife (34) and I (30) have been married for almost 3 years, together for 4, and friends for 2 years before that. My wife has a previous marriage with the father of our 3 children (6,8,10). When I met her as a friend, she was separated from him and attempting to gain a divorce due to incompatibility issues, his cheating (multiple times), drinking, and occasionally abusing her. He kept refusing for quite awhile to accept the divorce, until she called the police after he hit her again and the issue was forced.

About a year or so later we start feeling a bit of interest in eachother and eventually became very serious. When we became married, we were very happy and got along great. We had the same type of sense of humor, we chatted a lot, we were both respectful of eachothers feelings, very affectionate...
But for some reason in the past year I became too involved in being on the computer than anything else. I still told my wife that I loved her very much and held her at night, but we almost never went out unless it was on errands.

I realize that this was my issue...She liked to go dancing, but since I felt inadequate in my skill I didn't feel comfortable; she liked to go to parties (birthdays/weddings, etc) and I was not incredibily social. So the end result was that she went out most of the time with her sister with whom we live.

About 2 1/2 months ago I started to notice that she was acting a bit strange...little patience with me, no affection, no longer sharing details of her dance nights, suddenly acting very nervous around me when a certain person called, accusing me of watching her and going through her things, insulting me, etc. I knew instictively what this meant, but since there were a number of other stressors in our lives at the time, I didn't want to think it was the worst. I tried to talk to her about what was bothering her, but she got upset with me and we ended up fighting a lot.

Through talking and introspection I realized what I had been doing wrong and tried making amends and changes, but the results weren't too great. I stopped playing on the computer, I tried to make more time for her to chat or cuddle, I bought flowers, I basically did what ever seemed like it would make her happy. However, I would get up in the morning, cuddle with her until I went to work then come home in the afternoon and she would be taking a nap. So I would cuddle again for about a half hour until she gets up and tells me that she's going to chat with her sister for awhile and goes to her sister's room. When I tried to accompany her there to chat as well, she said that she wasn't sure her sister would want me sitting on her bed all night. So there I would sit waiting for her to come back to the bedroom until I either fell asleep or at 12-1 AM. When I called her on this behavior she responded by saying that I had been doing the same for a year and now it was her turn.

So 2 1/2 weeks ago, we went to her home country (she is immigrating) to deal with some paperwork and visit her family, and she will be staying there for 6-9 months until everything has been processed (I will be returning home). This is when things start to hit the fan.

A week into the trip, I'm getting fed up with the abuse and I tell her so. That I feel unhappy and that she has been treating me badly for a good amount of time and I feel very lonely. She apologizes and says that she didn't mean to be like that and that she'll try to change.

Things get much better for awhile, we cuddle, hold hands, talk quite a bit, but I still notice that she's spending a tremendous amount of time on the computer chatting with her 'sister'. One day, she is next door using the computer (in her country we stayed with her niece and one of her other sisters lived next door) and I am looking for some cables for our camera. In the camera bag I discover a love note from another man. When I confront her about this, she simply tells me that it's innocent, just that he has a crush on her but she's not interested. I somewhat accepted this since I knew that there were some guys that did have a crush, but she always told me about it and we laughed together about it.

Over the next few days, she continued chatting a *lot* woth her 'sister' and I noticed that when I would enter the room she would hit enter to hide what was on the screen then type '(he's) here'. This made me more suspicious, so I checked the message logs and saw the truth.

There was an OM and he had been using her sister's userid to hide his identity from me and her family. They talked about their love for eachother, about me, his family, her family, their plans for the future, etc.

I confronted her about it, and she admitted that it was true, and that she was so sorry and never wanted this to happen. She began to cry very much, saying that she never meant to hurt me it's just that she was so lonely when I wasn't there for her. She wasn't looking for anyone when it happened, but it just happened. She said that yes she did love him, and wasn't sure if she loved me anymore. She asked me if I could forgive her for the pain she had caused. I told her that I possibly could, but it would take time. She said that nothing physical had happened, and that her sister didn't know what was happening(this didn't believe).
I told her that whatever happened, make sure that her decision was what she truly wanted...don't stay with me out of guilt, and don't let him manipulate you. Make sure that she follows her own heart and does what is right for her *(red flag)*?!

Here I may have committed a few errors:
I know my wife's personality (for the most part) pretty well. She is very strong-willed and proud, and values her independence greatly. I know that if she is pushed towards something she truly does not want, she will push back, go the other direction and cut off contact. When her sisters disagreed about her leaving her first husband, they tried to convince her otherwise. The result was that she pushed harder and didn't speak to her sisters for almost 2 years.

*(red flag#1)* I didn't insist that she stop speaking to the OM, thinking that if I did, she would definitely continue with him in order to display her independence and also cut me out, as well. In any event, there would have been no way for me to be sure that it wasn't still happening (see flag#2)

*(red flag#2)* I know that they say that after separation, the chances of reconciliation are much harder, but the truth of the matter is that we were going to be informally separated anyway by distance for about 6-9 months. The only good thing is that she will be separated from him for the same reason. The only way she would be able to communicate with either of us would be over the internet. I told her that we would take this time to figure out what she wanted to do, and move on from there.

She agreed to these, and said again that she was sorry.

I did commit a LB by bringing up the subject the next day, because I had some doubts about what she had told me, and that I was partially certain that she was going to simply choose him anyway after the 6 months had passed. Much the same result as the last time, much crying and apologies. I asked her if she was confused, she said yes. I asked if it was because I was there in her country with her, she said yes. I asked her if she wanted me to leave, and she said no.

The next couple of days she continued chatting with the OM, and to confirm my doubts I continued checking her logs:
-She said that she was expecting that I was going to yell at her and insult her, and instead I suprised her by saying how sorry I was and that it was my fault and that I wanted another chance. She said this made her feel more terrible about what she had done, and she didn't know what to do about it since she didn't like to see me suffer.
-She was very sad, not because she didn't know who to be with, but that she didn't know how to deal with the situation.
-She said that if I withdrew support that she would simply find a job there to support her children.
-She was only worried that the children would suffer the most since they and I are so close.
-He at times said she should just run away with him, and she said possibly.
-She told him a few times to forget her because she was a bad person who would end up hurting him, and that they would end up fighting over what she had done.
-That some people had told her that she would regret what she was doing, since she had everything with me. She said that she didn't in fact, and that she had to be in love to be happy with someone.
-There were many more expressions of how they were meant for eachother and that they would always be at eachother's side.
-***That they had had sex when they spent a night together in a hotel room***

After this I couldn't take it anymore. I confronted her again and told her that I knew that she was still lying to me. I knew that she had had sex with him, and that I felt that her sister did know about the A. She admitted again that these were true, though her sister disagreed with what she was doing.

Here I may have committed a HUGE error:
*(Red Flag#3)* I was having trouble accepting the fact that I would have to wait for 6 months here waiting for a decision, knowing that she was still talking to him every day. I told her that I could wait until the end of my stay there, but that 6 months was too long.

She told me that I could go on with my life.
She said that she wanted to have a separation for now, and that she didn't want her family to know yet because they would disown her since they like me so much. *(Red Flag#4)*
She said that she valued me as a friend and she didn't want to lose that, and asked if we could continue as such. I said I wasn't sure, but I said I'd try (I didn't want to give up completely). She also asked if I would try to still see the kids, since we care about eachother so much, and I said that I would, as well.
She said I didn't have to send her any money if I didn't want to, that it was my choice. She didn't have any right to expect anything from me.

I told her that it was her decision to make, but that I really didn't want to give up on her. I really did want a second chance to work things through. I told her that if there was a time that she came to regret the choice she made, that 'The Door' would be open for her. She accepted this and said that she'd remember that.

We went on pretending everything was ok for a time. The thing that began to make everything confusing was that we would continue holding hands, and hugging, and such even when we were alone. When we were in bed she would cuddle up to me and say that she liked it when I held her, and that she cared about me so much.

Her messages went in the same vein:
-She was a bad person and that she would hurt him.
-She felt awful when she looked at me thinking about what she had done.
-That she was very depressed and simply wanted to disappear. That she didn't want to do anything at all. Just sleep.
-That maybe she would just go somewhere else where she wouldn't hurt anyone.
-She loved him very much and that she wanted to be with him alone.
-That if he wanted she'd be at his side forever.

The subject came up a few more times, mostly when she saw me sad and tried to console me. I tried to hide it as well as I could but it was too hard. I asked her once if she was truly serious about him, and she said that 'Well, he says that he love me (supposedly), and I think I feel something for him.' I remind her about The Door and she begins to cry again.

The mixed signals continued until the end of my stay. Sometimes when I would kiss her (or her me) she would be responsive, other times it would be like kissing a mannequin. She would ask me to hold her in bed, or want me to hug her. She would look for my hand to hold at times. There were times when she and would get along and she looked happy, there were others that she would smile at me but it would drop the moment she looked away. There were nights that we would start hugging then kissing, and it would seem like we were going somewhere, but then she would just stop suddenly.

During this time I had thought about what I had said and regretted allowing the decision to be made so soon. I told her that I knew that I had said that it was ok to separate, but I realize that she and our family are far too important to me to let go so easily. That if she is worth something that I had to fight for her love and that's what I was going to do. She said that she didn't want me to suffer for her. I told her that it was my decision, and that was what I wanted to do. She said that would be fine.

The mixed signals continue, but she becomes more responsive as the trip nears an end. I am at times alright, and others I feel very sad and it shows. We go out dancing and have a lot of fun together, actually engaging in some *very* close dancing (if you know what I mean). That night nothing happened after we went to bed.

Final 2 days of my trip. We went to her home town to see her mother and another sister, and she was worried about her mother's reaction if she found out. After we arrive she takes me aside and tells me that she thinks her mother knows what is happening, because she won't speak to her, and she says that she thinks her sister is looking at her disapprovingly as well. I tell her not to worry, and she responds with, 'I don't care, if they don't want to talk to me that's fine!' Like I said I know my wife and I know that this is her way of saying that she *does* care, but that she's afraid of being hurt.

We all go out to eat, walking around where there is a fair. At this time I am tired of pretending we are fine, and I am starting to feel resentment about her part in our problems and her attitude about it...that she didn't once simply stop and say "I'm unhappy with how we are" or "I feel very lonely right now". I know that's a lot to ask, and it's irrational to dwell on that sort of thing at this point.
I also felt that instead of continuing to try to make things work or let me know what she was feeling, she simply kept it all in and later she just gave up. Moreover that she admitted that what she had done was a mistake that hurt me (and was hurting her, and could hurt everyone around us), but she continued with the mistake anyway.

I tried to keep it all in with all her family around for awhile, until I simply asked if she wanted to walking for a bit to get away. To my credit I didn't say what was on my mind, but it showed so much that she asked me what was the matter. I simply responded that we shouldn't talk about 'that', and she got a downcast look in her eyes. This defused me a bit, since I felt bad that I was making her hurt, too by raising the subject.

We started to talk about her mom and things that were happening there, and she brought up something about our situation, and it came around to me saying that although I said that she had to follow her heart, she also had to use her head, too. Make sure she was making the right decision.

The next day we spend the entire day in bed sleeping (avoiding the family), and we have the bedroom to ourselves without any children. WWe sleep mostly but eventually we start to kiss and things progress until I ask her that if she wants to make love (we hadn't been together since the beginning of this), and she says 'give me time'. So we stop and fall asleep again. When I'm awakened it's to her being very close, and holding me very close, and she begins to kiss me deeply, leading up to us almost being together, but being interrupted by someone at the door. Nothing else happened for the rest of the day except a talk about where we were going...I told her that I valued our marriage very much, and our family, and that all the time we had invested and experiences we had were so important to me. I asked her if she truly thought we had a chance to work things out, she said she didn't know because often times after something like this happens, the trust is too damaged and the two people end up fighting again. I asked if she thought I could learn to forgive and trust her again. She said yes, beleived I could. I then asked her if she would like to try to make our marriage work? She said that she wasn't sure...that I give her this time to get her thoughts in order.

So that night we went back to her niece's house and I was to leave the next morning. We slept that night, and in the early morning, thinking about the fact that I was leaving and all that happened, I just lose it. She wakes up hearing me crying, and she starts to hold me and kiss me and say 'my love'. We kiss more and more until we start becoming more physical. I ask her if she wants to make love (remembering all the uncertainties) and she says to 'not ask her that', but she does want to do it. So we do.
In retrospect, I think that it was the distinction between making love and having sex that made her say that. She had always been the sort that believed that sex was meaningless if there was no love between the two. She didn't ever want that. If that's so, why did she do it with me after saying that she didn't want to consider it making love?

In all honesty I am still terribly confused about what she is really thinking. Was she simply being close to me to make me feel better (or herself feel better) about what happened? Or does she really have some doubts about what is happening?

After I realized the import of what she said, I felt even worse because I felt that something that had always been so special for us before had been cheapened, that she knew it had been too, and that she was disappointed in me for it.

We got dressed and went to the airport with her mother and 2 nieces. As we were there, I again started to cry, and she said not to because she would start as well. She said not to worry and that we would see eachother again soon, and I said that it wouldn't be the same though. She replies,'We don't know that'. We kiss and hug, and I go into the terminal.

That was this Sunday. I got home, called her for abit to let her know I was home, then I went out with some family. I try to chat or call everyday and I try to be upbeat and friendly. I tell her I love her (she responds still,'I know.')and that she is beautiful and that I care about her very much. I send her romantic e-mails talking about the future and all that I hope for us. She is friendly but not affectionate, perhaps a little less affectionate than she was when I left. I ask her how she is and she says that she is fine. She asks if I'm eating and taking care of myself and how I am. She says that she thinks her family know what is happening, because her mom still won't talk to her, and another sister (she has 7) called her and told her that she has to think carefully about what she is doing.

I had added both of the userids that she had been using so that I could see when she was online, but it's not very often. I realize that I can't be sure or control whether she talks to him, but I can't help but want to. I suppose I shouldn't even be suprised that she'll lie to me about it either, even though I keep saying that I want us to be honest with eachother. I think she created a third userid so that she'd be able to chat with him uninterupted by me, because I heard the sounds of it on the phone even though both her ids were offline. I suppose it's not even worth thinking about, in truth.

Well, there's my novel. I'm sorry it's so long, but it just seems like every little detail seems to say something different and change everything. I truly want an honest opinion and I'm afraid that if I leave something out that the advice won't fit my situation quite as well. I also feel the need to unburden myself a bit.

Were some of my choices regarding the separation and allowing her to speak to him still wrong? Or does her personality and the situation we have sort of null the possibility of controlling this?

Will being separated from both of us be helpful to getting us together? Or will make it harder?

I don't know. So many questions and doubts. I imagine after awhile I will have more to add, but for now I think I will listen to your responses.

Thanks
nobody9

Welcome to marriagebuilders. That was a looong post.

Start reading all about Plan A, which is the starting point. It sounds like you have been doing a fairly decent one just on your own.

Plan A also consists of exposure of the affair. So you need to let her family know what is going on, and ask them for help in saving your marriage.

Also, is the other man married? If so, you need to let his wife know.

Yeah, I realize it's a long one...I was even thinking I might have to shorten it so that it gets read more (TLDR).

I don't think he is married. Her single sister who knows about the A is (or was) 'dating' his brother as well to make things more interesting. Not sure if his brother knows, but I imagine he does.
I tried to talk to her sister about the issue, but she only said that she doesn't want to get involved because of what happened the last time (with the ex). She asked my W once what was going on the first time he called the house, and she screamed at her to mind her own business. Later on she told my W that she was making a mistake in what she was doing and it wasn't fair to me, to much the same result.

She told me (as I already knew) that my W is the type who if pushed in a certain direction will reactively go the opposite. Also that my W is one who does not forgive easily. That is the main reason that I'm worried about telling her family and our friends, that she'll just run.

I did read about plan A and that's where I got a bit confused. It includes the exposure to the family, but reading 'What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife' the advice is if she won't leave him, to actively compete with the lover. Try to show her that you are better for her than the OM is.

That is the essence of Plan A. But it also includes exposure. Usually affairs end when they are exposed. If the affair was over, it would be much easier to work on the marriage.

And my promise to her that I wouldn't tell? Do I first tell her that it's not fair that she's asking me to keep her secret? It is hard.

I think because of our talk when I discovered the A, for all intents and purposes to my W we are actually separated (physically and matrimonially) while she sees what she wants to do, so I'm trying to figure out whether we totally fit into Plan A.

I would like to think that her family would help, but like I said she has this thing about her family pushing her into things she doesn't want. It's almost a reflexive reaction to her childhood or something. I just wonder if it would actually end it or if she would do the opposite out of spite (or pride).

It is your choice to keep her sleazy affair a secret, but why would you promise something like that? This is a huge threat to your marriage.

I talked to her again today, and from what she tells me the situation is this:
I can go on with my life if I want to. She cannot love two people at once. She loved me before, but now she just cares for me as a friend. Now the one she loves is the OM.

She isn't sure if he's going to work out or not...if he doesn't then she'll move on with her life. She's not sure, but she doesn't hold out much hope that we can work things out...and at the moment with how she feels about him she has no desire to. She feels that we never will be able to trust each other again (or that I won't be able to trust her) because of what she did. She also isn't sure if she would be able to learn to love me again the way she did, but she doesn't think so. She doesn't want to try only to end up hurting me again...She doesn't want me to suffer for her.

She tried giving her ex a second chance after they had separated for much the same reason, that he wasn't giving her the attention she needed. He convinced her that he would change, and that she could learn to love him again. She wanted things to work out, but she just didn't feel the same for him anymore. She just couldn't love him again.

I'm not sure how much of this to take as literal truth, or how much of it is her fear of repeating history. I'm also not sure if I should continue to try to convince her (through the love bank method) that she could learn to love me again, or just let it go. We get along very well as friends, and that's exactly how we started (as friends) so anything is possible-especially when you look at things in a long term frame of mind.

She says that she cares about me very much. She wants me to be happy and she wants me to take care of myself. She says that she can't be happy if I'm sad about her. She wants us to continue to be friends and continue talking.

I don't know what to do...it seems so final and she seems so certain...I just can't accept that she would *never* be willing to give us another chance...something just seems wrong in her thinking about that.

"When I met her as a friend, she was separated from him and attempting to gain a divorce due to incompatibility issues, his cheating (multiple times), drinking, and occasionally abusing her."

Was this the truth, or was this?

"She tried giving her ex a second chance after they had separated for much the same reason, that he wasn't giving her the attention she needed"

I'm a bit mixed up.

"She tried giving her ex a second chance after they had separated for much the same reason, that he wasn't giving her the attention she needed"

This was their first separation. This was when he was spending all his time out with his friends and leaving her at home. Eventually he returned to their home country to be with his mother, leaving her here to support their children. This was before I had met her.

"When I met her as a friend, she was separated from him and attempting to gain a divorce due to incompatibility issues, his cheating (multiple times), drinking, and occasionally abusing her."

This is the time after she had given him a second chance. This is when she and I had become friends. I suppose technically it wasn't a *separation*. He was still around living in the house of her sister as she was, paying separate rent. They weren't together in any way, though, emotionally or physically. The cheating eventually came out as family members caught him on the computer, and was confirmed by him towards the end. The abuse happened twice, the last time being the time that she finally left him seeking outside assistance.

I had a very long talk with a close friend of mine surrounding the situation, and he had quite a bit to say.

From the things that have happened in her(W) life,
-from being the black sheep of the family, making her always on the defensive
-having a father who for quite a long time rebuked any sort of affection offered by her, to which she responded by simply giving up and not caring about him for a long while.
-her response to any sort of rejection from family of friends ('If they aren't going to care about me, why should I care about them'),
-her reactions to her ex's neglect and her inability to learn to love him again, that she likes him as a friend but could never love him again (his actions over time had 'proven' to her that to love him again would result in the same situation)
-to her actions and feelings towards my neglect, now she wants to be friends only and doesn't want to try to be romantic again for fear of hurting me. (Again she doesn't want to repeat history. Perhaps it isn't only that she feels that she will hurt me again, but it's also that she feels that she at this time can't open up and love me again for fear that *she* will be hurt again.)

He essentially termed her as a 'runner'. When she doesn't receive the attention she needs or feels that she is neglected, she eventually just switches off that 'love' emotion to keep herself from getting hurt. She then puts a few extra locks on it to make sure that it doesn't slip loose. It's a defense mechanism.
The only problem is that once it's switched off, it takes a lot of work, time, and effort to get it turned back on again. She did eventually learn to love her father again, but he's her father. He lives with her mother, who she is always going to be in contact with, so it's not like she can leave him forever. Also there is the ingrained predisposition to care for your parents.

When we were in this midst of our descent I asked her if she could learn to love me again and she said she wasn't sure...she didn't want to suffer again. She said that when she stopped loving her father, it cost her and him a lot of work and time for her to be able to feel something like love for him again.
With a man like me or her ex, however, it's a bit more difficult since there is no imperative in keeping us in her life. Nor is there any sort of lifelong bond.

Here's how I see how things happened for her with me. She spent quite a bit of time over the course of this past year dealing with the fact that I was giving her less and less attention. At first it was only a little bit, and she was only a little annoyed so she didn't say much. After a time she started to feel more neglected, so became more likely to become angry with me and tell me so.
Throughout all of this I was still my own little world thinking everything was fine, since all of my own emotional needs were being met. Sure she was angry from time to time, but she always said sorry afterwards.
About 3 months before her affair started, I really began to spend almost all my time on the computer. It was during this time that she began to just give up. She would say things from time to time (remarks around me that I was always on the computer, or saying that if I wasn't going to pay attention she'll just leave (the room)), but for the most part kept to herself. This is when her love for me was switched off.
After that is when she met the other man. She saw the things that she'd been lacking, and fell in love.

I'm not totally trying to justify all her actions, simply understand them and her.
I feel terrible for not giving her the attention that she needed, and I hate myself for neglecting her when I thought she was the most amazing person in the entire world who deserved everything. I wish I had actually taken seriously the things that she had said to me.
I also wish that she would have said more to me though. Not simply comments about what I was doing, but about how she was feeling. 'I feel lonely without you' 'I feel neglected' 'I'm not happy here'. If I wasn't responding, confide in someone else who we both trust and have them tell me. Talk about getting professional help from a counselor. Tell me that she's falling out of love. And when she had fallen out of love and felt that she was falling for someone else, she should have told me that she wanted to leave, instead of hiding it from me.

I do truly want her back, but if I am going to do that there is going to be a lot of work, not only in how we work in a marriage, but also in how she works with her own feelings.

I am starting to think she is right in saying that if she simply came back to me after a failed relationship with the OM, it would probably end in disaster. If she still hasn't allowed that 'love' switch to be turned on again, she isn't going to feel any real desire to try to make things work between us. Because of the locked 'love' switch, it would take much more time to be able to get her to respond. If I couldn't get that switch dislodged quickly enough, and she wouldn't allow me in to fulfill her emotional needs, eventually, she would encounter someone else who she *could* love much easier due to the lack of any past experience of neglect with them. She would then leave me all over again.

So if I do want to win her back, it would have to be the way that I won her in the first place. Being there, being *myself* (not one of *us*), showing her that the tendancy to become neglectful is gone, ***show her that people can change and that she can trust me again***

That I think is the other issue....I don't think she believes that people can change their fundamental behavior, and I don't think that there is any way I can convince her of that other than by doing it.

She knows I'm a good person that has always respected her and has always tried to do my best to make her happy. I've never abused her, I've always tried to understand when she was upset, I've always supported her when others insulted her...I think it would be easier for her to learn to trust me again, and after she learns to trust me that I won't repeat my mistakes again, she may be willing to open herself to the idea that she won't be hurt all over if she becomes close to me again. And after that..who knows?

Nobody9;

Welcome to MB. Read your epic and had some comments.

1. Order Surviving an Affair, read it and send it to your wife.

2. Invite her to come post. It would be a great way for you to interact on this very subject around people who have been there, done that.

A few thoughts on your story. I think your presumption regarding your wifes comment "not to ask her that" prior to sex was wrong. From my personal experience what she was saying that by asking you appeared needy and weak. She was unfairly comparing you to her "soulmate" that just knew how to "take" her. It speaks to her justifications and rationalizations that you and her are incompatible sexually. A wayward wife is to irrational to try to make a distiction between "making love" and "sex". Your story reeks of the love she still has for you. She is just confused and in the fog.

Also, your instincts about exposure may be O.K.. If her family already knows (7 sisters - like they can keep a secret) then why expose. Just Plan A so they will push her to give you a chance. Your position must be that marital recovery can NOT begin until the affair is busted and no contact is established. Though she is bull-headed she gave her abusive husband a 2nd chance - she will likely do the same for you, eventually - if you keep fighting for her.

Finally, exposing the OM might be a separate consideration. You promised to not expose her but could go and expose him. With her out of the country, he is not getting his needs met and with continual pressure it may just seem to much for him. Expose him to his family, friends, work, etc. Getting him to dump her would be ideal.

ACT OUT

Act,
Thanks for the advice and the supportive comments, I'll take them both to heart. I owe the same to Beleiver, sorry I didn't say the same earlier...

I do have a couple more questions, but I think I will create a fresh post and simply refer to this one...

Nobody9

Hello,

You made a huge mistake by not exposing the affair to her family. Exposure is the key. By not exposing the affair to everyone you are in fact enabling the affair to continue. How can you not understand this? I wish you luck.

Thanks for the input, BryanP. I admit that the exposure is something that has been weighing on my mind quite a bit. I understand that it will put a lot of pressure on her to end the affair, but I'm also worried about what other effects that pressure will have...

If I expose the situation to her family, will they support me? Or will they listen to her side of the story (that I was never there and she is not happy) and support her? Or will they try to convince her to do the right thing? Or will they be like her sister here who *knows* that something is happening and doesn't approve...but doesn't want to get involved because of how my W will react to their pressure (breaking of contact)?

If they try to convince her to do the right thing, will she listen? Or will she react as always and simply shut them out? Her position in the family has been that of the black sheep, the one that was always considered the trouble-maker (regardless of whether it is deserved), so she has become accustomed to simply shutting down when she feels that she is being shunned/accused (see the 1-2 years of no contact with her sisters surrounding her first divorce for much the same reason).

I recognize the negotiation/babble for what it is, 'If you tell people what's happening, I'll never come back to you!' (!?...But you're already leaving me!) so I'm not too worried about that.

Have there been any cases where the "trust" has been broken irrevocably by exposure, or more importantly where the WW has actually run away from the family and the difficult situation to the OM following exposure?

On the final note, I do believe that there is some exposure happening regardless, due to sudden mysterious phone calls from her sister in NY (far from where everything is happening) saying that she needs to think hard about the choices she is making, and her mother's attitude toward her when we visited her.

nobody

reading your post I do have to wonder at some inconsistancies I see here.

Perhaps it is simply the way you have written the post.
This is mainly for you to consider some options here Nobody and perhaps do some research for your benefit.

What strikes me nobody is the similarities beyween what your ww told about the end of the first M and the A she is in right now.

What makes me doubt her rendition of the whole history of the first M is her sisters not wanting her to leave that first m, that it was wrong etc etc ..sound familar?
I find it hard to think ALL her sisters would encourage her to stay in such a abusive relationship, so maybe her explaination of this first M history is not exactly correct.
I understand of course that sometimes religion and culture do not encourage divorce or separation for any reason...though you make no mention of this.

Now it sounds from your post a very similar situation has arisen very quickly after your M.

If her sister has been going out with the OM's brother for some time is there a possiblity that the A with the OM may be a resumption of a previous A? Remember A's dont need to be physical.

I do wonder if there may be more to this whole situation than you realise.

I may well be way off course and its just the way you have written the post but if not nobody pls do some digging and maybe speak to more sisters, try to get some info,
Knowledge can help you know what you must fight and help you work out how to fight it.

Hope I'm wrong & way off base here.

Generally they will act like they hate you for a few days, throw it in your face when you make more demands, use it as an additionaly justification and rationalization to why they should not be with you and go as far overboard as they can making you feel bad so they can manipulate you to back off. They may try to use it as justification to run off with OM but now the whole world knows. Affairs do not thrive in the light of day. The secrecy is half the excitement of the relationship.

Deep down every WS knows exposure is the right thing for you to do and eventually will have no remorse or bitterness towards you once your marriage is recovered. They will be amazed you did not do it sooner. It is sooo obvious to them what they think you should do that they instinctively battle exposure before the BS even considers it.

Exposure has the added benefit of making you appear stronger and more desirable. It also counter balances the neglectful "he doesn't care about me" rationalization that the WS has internalized. When you fight for her and stand up for yourself and the marriage you are demonstrating your love for her.

Are you the calm, never raise your voice type guy? If so, I like to recommend you calmly break something in your house. A vase. A mirror. Something. Later, sister-in-law will see it and communicate to her family ---"how upest Nobody9 is". If sis does not say anything you can tell WW yourself. Her first husband was violent so don't do it if you think it will scare her at all.

What does this accomplish?

First, perhaps discover sister-in-law is not as nuetral as you believed and in contact about the situation in your home with her family.

Second, you get to pretend you were just soooo upset, you love her and are just soooo frustrated you had to vent and/or you have ill will towards OM. IMO, Some women appreciate a "physical" demonstation of your love for them especially in the "neglectful husband" rationalization instance. It gets more sympathy and attention from a WW than crying and begging. It may get a "Wow, he really, really loves me"...I know she knows you love her it's the "wow" I was after. IMO, WW's behave like high school girls and high school girls often love it when their man fights for them. (stupid I know). My point is try to be strong or at least make yourself appear strong.

I'm rambling, sorry

Good luck, Mr. Wondering

Aussieswife,
Yes I have noticed some similarities between the current situation and that of her previous M. I also see that my way of writing all this out seems a bit confusing, too, though I must admit that's qhere my head is at most of the time now....Let me try to clarify a bit:

"I find it hard to think ALL her sisters would encourage her to stay in such a abusive relationship, so maybe her explaination of this first M history is not exactly correct."

This didn't happen with all her sisters, only the 2 that had been living with her here in the same house. The two sisters lived upstairs and my W and family lived in a furnished basement. None of her other sisters in other states or back home had any idea what was going on. So it is possible that their reactions might be different.
The other thing is that I do know that the break off of contact did happen as she and I were friends at the time. What I was told by my W was that they liked him a lot and didn't believe that he was doing anything wrong. After the divorce and some time had passed, they apologized and said that they had been mistaken.
When I asked my sister in law about the current situation, she told me flat out that she didn't want to get involved since there was nothing she could do...

"What strikes me nobody is the similarities beyween what your ww told about the end of the first M and the A she is in right now." "Now it sounds from your post a very similar situation has arisen very quickly after your M."

I do see the similarities between the two instances, and it does give me a bit of worry. That she may be the sort of person who, when their emotional needs aren't being met or are neglected they just switch off and move on...I hope not because I'd like to think that I have a chance.
There are some things which are different, as well. When she had been trying to end her first marriage, she was asking for a divorce (that he move out and move on) for some time, but he wouldn't agree. With me, she only said she wanted a separation for a time. Whether that is borne out of circumstances (family and living situation) or not I can't be sure.

Realistically I'm not sure what to think...whether I'm different in her mind from her first husband, or if I'm just going to be one in a long run of hopeful romances who get dropped when things get rough. I can see the pattern developing very well. I just hope I can get through to her...or that I'm just plain wrong about that.

My Wondering,
Regarding the exposure, that is definitely something to think about...Arrggghhh, it's just that I think about how things went before and her reactions to people saying that she shouldn't do what she's doing...she becomes more resolute and throws aside any consideration of what others may think. I'm just soooo not sure and I think my head may explode.....

As far as the 'breaking' things goes, well I think she already knows that I'm pretty upset/hurt by the whole thing. When I found out the 'final' truth about their relationship I ended up punching a concrete wall and giving myself a couple of nice scabs on my knuckles.
A couple of days later she sees them and asks me what happened. I tell her that it happened when I found out, and she gives me a look and says 'I don't want you hurting yourself over me...'

HMmmmmmmmmmm, ok. I realize that I'm sabotaging myself with these long posts, but I don't see any way around it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll just have to hope that someone has the patience to slog through it and give me some insight.

I am really starting to break down on the whole exposure concept. I understand how it can be the step that most Bs's balk at, since it's so scary. Though the way I'm starting to think about it is, yes, she may feel something for this guy who is giving something I was missing, but she does care about me as well. If she was entirely sure, she would have been out the door already.
At this stage, if I don't do something and I keep quiet, I am basically saying that I'm going to allow her to do this even though it hurts me, and that just shows that I am either weak, or that I don't really care.

My thoughts now are on who exactly I should tell in order to gain the most mileage out of this. From what I've been told her family thinks that I'm a good man and they tell her so, 'You need to take care of him, he's a good man' ie don't let him get away, I think. I'm not sure who knows what, so I'll go in order of possibility:
Sister#1 (in NY) - She's the one who called my W saying that she needs to be careful about what she's doing. She might be most receptive and most influential on my W. They talk a lot and I know that my W confides in her often.

Sister#2 (living in same home with me) - Knows that something is going on between W and OM, but doesn't know/want details. Doesn't want to get involved due to past experience. *But* she is enabling big-time in allowing OM to use her chat ID to communicate with W. Not sure if she knows that, but I find it hard to believe that she doesn't. Another twist is that for the past 3 weeks she has been dating OM's older (i think) brother. I believe both "relationships" developed out of a friendship that began at the dance club.

Sister#3 (living in same city) - Not sure what her reaction would be. She and I have been polite, but never very close. To be honest I have at times avoided contact with sisters 2 & 3 due to the sort of name calling/sibling rivalry that often goes on toward my W. I just never liked it and supported my wife whenever they upset her. Ironic how such loyalty can come around to bite me in the rear...
It might be worth a shot though...need to think about this one.

Sister#4 (living next door to W ATM) - She seems like a level headed person, and we got along fairly well. She seems to be the sort to hope for the best. However, her situation is that her husband left the state to find work, and ended up having an affair. Not sure what happened over time, but ATM he has left the A, is still living out-of-state, supporting her, and they are still in a state of separation after 8 years. Her attitude now is basically, *shrug*. So I wonder if her reaction may be,'Well do whatever makes you happy...'

Sister#5 (Living in other city in home country) - Most likely would support me. Thinks much about the children and is one of the closest to W's mom. She is one of the one's who gave my W a 'strange look' when we went to visit. At the least may suspect the separation if not the A.

Sister#6 (Living close to MIL and FIL) Not really part of the inner circle of family it seems. I have no way of contacting them, and they most likely wouldn't be interested.

MIL/FIL (in small town in other country) Most likely would support me and want to help. A bit worried of the effect their help would have though. W saw that her mother was acting stand-offish (no speaking and angry looks) towards her, and the W assumes it has to do with the separation. Mother has a personality like my W, so it makes for an odd situation/conflict. ATM, my W still refuses to speak to my MIL, saying that if her Mother is going to be that way with her, why should she bother? And anyway I know how she(W) is. This may make things worse, and is my major worry with this plan. Her mother does have experience in being the BS, from her husband, but she basically just accepted it and let the bitterness grow.
Her father.....I'm not sure. He seems to like me, but I'm not too sure on what his stance would be. As I mentioned, he was the WH for quite awhile, and only within the past few years has he begun to wake up and see what he has in his W. She for her part seems to hold a grudge a bit, so it makes things difficult at times. So I'm not sure if he'll say, well that's the way it goes, or if he'll say to his daughter,'Look, I did the same thing and look what it did to your mother and me...' That's assuming he has that kind of outspoken eloquence in him, he seems to be the kind of gruff manly man for the most part.

Niece#1 (living in same house with W) Has a large amount of influence with MIL/FIL, but my W can't stand her so any involvement on her part will probably sabotage things pretty heavily. It's mostly due to her that she doesn't want to stay in that house. She wishes to fix up a spare room with sister#4 next door.

Niece#2 (living in same house with W) Daughter of Sister#1, gets along for the most part with W, though ATM there are some differences arguements cropping up due to money/work responsibilities. Seems my wife is becoming tired of this niece's attitude as well. On the flip side I do believe she would support me if I stated that I wanted to make things work out with my W.

Nephews 1 & 2 (living with/older children of sister#4) - #1 has always been very close to my W, and is her favorite nephew. He is the one who cared for her whenever she was sick. He may take her side, or he may see that her course of action is not the best for her. In the latter case, he would be a great help, since she respects him immensely. In the former, it could make things a lot more difficult if she has his support.
#2 doesn't have a ton of influence with my W, their relationship has always been more friendly than anything. Since she's returned though, they have been getting along much better so it's difficult to tell.

Niece#3 (living with/older child of sister#4) - Before their relationship wasn't that good, but as my wife returned they seemed to hit it off very well. It seems that my W is her favorite aunt and they spend a *large* amount of time together. Seems to like me, but I think it's fairly obvious where her loyalties will fall.

That's my main worry about talking to her family...in that I will state what is happening and what I want to come out of it, but they will take her side when she replies with, '..but he was never there! He was always on the computer and never paid attention to me! I just don't love him anymore and I think I can be happy with the OM!'

Realistically most of this family is miles away from me and right next to her. I can't be there to do *any* damage control, so she could technically say anything she wants without any rebuttal from me. The question is whether they will see it as an affair that is the wrong thing to do, or her choice to make herself happier. Sisters#1,2,3 and Niece#2 have all been in marriages that have involved abuse and have ended in divorce. Sister#4 is in a marriage that involved an affair that resulted in an 8 year separation with no end in sight. So I need to worry if their reaction is going to be a bit "anti-husband" or "do whatever you have to do" to a certain extent.

Any advice on whether this seems like a good idea or who I should contact? I'm well aware what the reaction of my W will be (she told me that if I told anyone that she'd *never* come back to me...) and it's possible that she may hold a grudge. I just want to make sure that taking this step will make the best impact.

...Also I worry about the fact that since I am so far away, the options available for contact from her are very limited. Meaning unless she logs into messenger or sends me an email, I wouldn't hear from her. ATM I am calling her using phone cards, and I'm not sure that she would try to call me...
The result would be that I wouldn't have any way of continuing Plan A and trying to make LB deposits or meeting her ENs during the time of fallout.

Really unsure of how to go about this.....