Well I had a talk with sister#2 (the doesn't-want-to-get-involved one) about the things that are going on. All she would really offer up was this:
It turns out that somehow sister#1 (in NY) does know what is going on, and told their mother. We imagine that the most likely person to tell her must have been Niece#2 (her daughter). Most likely overheard what was being said between me and W, or overheard the phone conversation I had with my mother (which is less likely due to language barriers).
Anyway, the mother calls up sister#3 demanding to know what was going on and how could they be right there and not know/stop what my W is doing. Sister#3 calls up sister #2 wanting to know what she's talking about - 'something about she's seeing another man...'. And eventually her mother calls up sister#2 and asks the same things to which she basically says what limited things she knows, but that beyond that she doesn't want to hear anymore. Also if mother knows, then most likely father, sister#5, and niece#1 all know as well since they are all so close and to judge by their attitudes toward my W.

So mother knows, but they aren't speaking. Sister#1 said her piece. Sister#2 has said that she disagrees (she says that I'm a good guy and don't deserve this. She thinks that my W would be better with me, but if she's going to pursue this other guy, she should at least tell me. She told my W so when she found out about it - before I knew - and my W said she wasn't ready to let go yet.) She said she can try to talk to my W to convince her to do the right thing, but so far she's been avoiding talking to her as well because if my W says any more about the subject she's certain that they are going to end up fighting.
Niece#2 isn't saying anything outright, but from the way she had been acting toward my W I can see how she might have known. Niece#1 hasn't said anything, and probably shouldn't, since that might make things worse for me. Not sure if sister#4 knows, but it's a possibility.

Now for the bad news (or opinion, if you like). Sister#2 thinks that my wife is not the sort of person you can push into change. She is the sort of person who is accustomed to getting her way, so if she wants something, she takes it regardless of the consequences. She's always been like this since she was a child. If she decides to come back to me, it'd be because she wants to, not because it's the right thing to do. (harsh) Realistically there is not much I or anyone else can do to convince her otherwise, because she is going to do what she wants.

Now I'm not taking this as the be-all-end-all truth, but I can see glints of truth in there. She does have a very spoiled personality in some ways. I'd noticed it before and so has my mother and my best friend. Not that it makes her a bad person, but she likes the material things and she likes the attention. Also if she does see something that she does want (a piece of jewelry, to start a small business venture, a redecorating project, *anything*), she fixates on it and soon devises a way to make it happen....I used to call her my evil genious for the intricate plans she would conjure up.

It kind of makes me lose hope thinking of it like that. Because if she's fixated on this other guy and that's what she wants, then she'll have it. Unless he disappears or disappoints her somehow, but I can only hold my breath so long wishing for that.

Now I'm getting back into the anger phase again...I also found out that she didn't tell him that she was married until they were well into the relationship...that hurts more than I thought it would. Also that apparently the OM loves her a lot. Another thing I wish I didn't know.

I'm going to try to Plan A for as long as I can, especially considering both our situations have separated all 3 of us (except me and the OM). Not sure how I'll do though...it's too soon to tell and 6 months is a long time. If she comes back and she's still going to see the other guy, I may just decide to move to Plan B. Or who knows, maybe I'll do it sooner...it may have more effect financially and supportively. Not sure about anything anymore.....

Are you going to be doing MB Plan A then Plan B?

Are you going to be strong and a warrior for your family? Even if it pisses off your WW/Princess when you stand up for MARRIAGE ???

Your WW is not having an extraordinary affair ... her's is a run-of-the-mill common-as-dirt ugly nasty filthy adultery....

Nothing special here ... do not glamorize her or what she is doing.

You can complain or you can commit to a battle plan.

It's up to you. Are you going to war or not?

Hello again Nobody9;

I agree with Pepper. I don't care how pig-headed she is, if she only does what she wants you've got to follow the MB plan so she herself will determine that it is in fact YOU that she wants. Fighting for your marriage is one of the strongest impressions of your love for her that you can make. You can not force her to choose you but you can guide her back to you and away from OM.

Have you read the lighthouse thread?

Pepperband has a great "Carrot & Stick" Plan A post she'll hopefully share here.

ACT OUT

p.s. - did you like the file I sent you???

*sheepishly*

I have NO IDEA where that one is ..

Got it Pepp:

Pepperband:
Hehehe actually I'd already found it...The_Wonderings already pointed me to a thread where it had been posted. I liked it a lot and it'll help me out quite a bit. Sorry if I'm seem like I'm complaining or giving up, I forget there are people here who have been sticking it out for far longer than 6 months. I feel I'm still riding the rollercoaster of emotions and my seatbelt is loose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
And I appreciate the way you posted, it does serve well as a wake up call.

ACTdontreact:
What you say makes a lot of sense, I just have to keep reminding myself of that and not let myself get discouraged. I think I need to get out more, too.
I haven't seen the entire lighthouse thread, but I did see a thread with the main body of the lighthouse post in it.
As far as the files, I did like the first one, but the other one had some statements that had me wondering (see my other thread). Maybe you could give me your opinion on those...

OK I've been thinking about the Carrot and the Stick post overnight, and I've got a couple questions.
I am doing fairly well on the carrot part, telling her that I am able to forgive her, that I want to work through our problems and save our marriage. That if she needs someone to talk to, I'm there to support her, etc. Trying to have friendly, enjoyable conversations with her to kind of respark that interest much as we did when we first began to see eachother. Making my improvements and trying to make them (subtly) apparent (though it's difficult to do over the phone....). Reminding her that I and my family are willing and able to accept her in our arms again, that she needn't feel that there is no possibility.

But....the part I am struggling with is the stick.
As far as exposure goes, she knows that my mother and grandmother know (they are the closest to her in my family) as well as my best friend. My mother has spoken to her and tells her that she still loves her and misses her. I for my part say that they are simply hoping for the best for both of us and they hope she comes back. She says that she really wishes that I hadn't said anything, but I remind her that it's not fair that I need to lie to the people closest in my family. Not to mention that I need someone to confide in regarding the situation (this is when she inquires as to what they said).
As I mentioned earlier, much of her family also know about the A, but are either so angry they are not speaking with her, or they are not speaking of the issue so as not to upset her or rock the boat. I can't really take any credit/blame for this one as they all knew before I even realized it.
As far as 'Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.' Do I bring this up from time to time? When she asks me how I am, do I say that 'I'm fine' or 'I'm doing well' to appear that I am recovering myself, or do I say 'Well, I am fine some of the time, but there are other times I struggle (due to what happened).'

I guess I am asking how do I communicate my feelings about what I am feeling about the things that happened, without committing the....well I suppose it's not a LoveBuster exactly, but I recall reading somewhere in here that constantly bringing up what has happened in the past can be detrimental to repairing the marriage. That it can put your spouse on the defensive too easily.
Hmmmm, though now that I think of it that may have been speaking of the time that you and your spouse are actually working through counseling. Technically what's happening to us isn't in the past but the present. :\
Looks like I may have answered my own question there, so maybe all I need is a confirmation and possibly some suggestion on how to broach the subject without making it seem like an *attack*. I've noticed that when I end up pushing her (like I say it may just be my approach), she ends up simply saying, 'Then move on and find someone else' and 'I can only love one person and I want the OM'. That makes it seem very counter-productive.

I have much the same concerns about 'Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.' At the beginning I did state that the two of had made mistakes. Mine being the neglect and lack of attention-giving. Her's being the affair (without saying specifically when the error-making occured\pointing out character flaws). She accepted that she had made mistakes (again non-specific) and that she accepted that and felt bad for causing me so much pain, etc. Over time though as our time together grew to a close, she said that she needed time to think about what she wanted and about her mistakes,'if it really was one'. This bothered me quite a bit and seemed like a step back.
How do I reiterate that she did indeed make (and is still making) a mistake in how she is acting, and that the blame doesn't lie entirely with me, but with her, *subtly*.
I understand that I can't be overly sensitive to her feelings, otherwise she will convince herself that she's not really done any damage and everything is fine. But if I come out saying that it's her fault and not mine, and she's wrong, wrong, wrong, it's kind of going to shoot the carrot of Plan A in the foot (or stalk, or whatever it would be), right?

So I suppose I'm basically looking for suggestions on how to raise the subject and remind her gently and lovingly that she's torn my heart out and is still stomping on it. (Don't take this statement as anything more than an odd attempt at a sense of humor, it popped in my head last night and it's been bouncing around in there ever since.)

Thanks,
Nobody9

Committing a 'lovebuster' means saying or doing something disrespectful or mean or selfish in a damaging way.

If you say something that is true, and you don't resort to name-calling, and you don't have the intent to harm or demean, then it is not a lovebuster ~even if~ it hurts to hear or is embarrasing or causes the discomfort of a guilty conscience.

EXAMPLE: (picking out a non-affair related example to demonstrate the principle ... OK ?)

LOVEBUSTER: Are you sure you want to eat that donut? Don't you even care what you look like from the back?

NON-LOVEBUSTER: I am concerned that unhealthy food like donuts are causing weight gain and lead to disease. I'd like to talk about a plan for eating healthy foods.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE # 2:

LOVEBUSTER: Look at this f'ing phone record!!! You called OM 310 times from our phone, the phone I PAY FOR. What the he** are you thinking woman ????

NON-LOVEBUSTER: When you contact OM from the sanctity of ~our home~ I feel violated. I am not going to quietly allow this disrespect for our home and family to continue. This family deserves respect. We deserves an adultery-free home.

Ok, I think I see what you're saying.
For example if I say:
I know you don't like to talk about this, but I have to tell you that I still feel very hurt about what happened and is still happening. I feel hurt on one hand by the fact that when this began, you felt compelled to lie to me in order to hide it. This hurt my trust in you greatly. Afterwards, what began to hurt me more is that although you saw that it was hurting me (from when I noticed the change, to the time that I discovered what was actually happening), you still felt you needed to continue, regardless.
I know you want me to be well and fine, but that isn't a possibility the way things are right now. I am taking a look at my mistakes and my life and making changes where I feel I need them, but overall I am unhappy.
I love you, our children, and our family. I have much hope for us and our marriage, and that our future together could be something very special if we both work hard at it. I don't want to give up on us without giving it a real chance.

Well those are *some* of the things that have been weighing on me mostly, but have been hesitant to say for fear of widening the breach unnecessarily. Is some of it too heavy-handed? Or too long-winded? Bad wording?

As far as not accepting the blame:
I know that the way I acted made you feel very lonely and sad, and I take responsibility for that. However, I can't take responsibility for what is happening now. The things that are happening now are results of choices you and you alone made. I wish I could make you feel better about them by saying they were ok, but I simply cannot.

Too much?

I'm still new to this, and I want to be confident and strong, I'm just trying not to push *too* hard. It's hard to know exactly what I need to say, and I don't want to screw this chance up.

I feel like I'm trying to defuse a bomb with a million colored wires. I need to cut a large amount of certain wires in a certain sequence, but all the wires keep changing colors on me...

I'll be back ... just got a bunch of stuff to do ...

Focus on changes you make to improve yourself ... and know that any changes your WW makes are voluntary ... one way or the other...

AND ---> ask yourself this

What motivates people to make changes?

I believe I understand what you are saying. As I've read before, Plan A is less about changing the WS and more about changing yourself, and allowing the WS to notice it (carrot). I know her well enough that I can't *make* her come back, I have to be more subtle than that.
I've been learning a lot from many of the other posts that have I've seen here...thinking of it as a garden with weeds that need to be pulled, and plants that need to be nutured. I'm going to keep Plan A'ing and winning her over whenever I can and hopefully I can get her to start looking in my direction again.

Thanks a lot everyone for the encouragement and guidance!

But the tricky part is not allowing her to carry on her affair right under your nose with no consequences.

She needs a voice of reason in her life (yours) because she's an addict.

Think of OM as heroin. What would you do if she was doing lines on your coffee table right in front of you? Would you go get the windex to clean up after her? Would you disallow that activity in your home?

Taking the high road is exhausting. Right now you are single-handedly holding the marriage together.

Make sure you are not ~also~ holding up the affair at the same time ... by default.

Understand?

What line of work are you in? Sometimes it helps me to know how to phrase things if I have some idea of what your training/education was.

WOW - your shortest post ever. I was getting worried about the conversations you were having with WW based on the volume of typing you did.

When you were dating WW you listened and engaged in small talk. You tended to agree with most things she said and always validated her feelings. Every woman loves to talk about themselves so pry deeper into her emotions and personality. You admitted that during your marriage you neglected your wife to such an extent that she went outside your marriage to get her needs met. This was not your fault. She should have come to you. But she needs to come to you now and know you are there for good. Because of the distance it will be difficult to get in long converastions on the telephone (but try at whatever expense) but an IM chat room dialogue will be an alternative. Ask questions and listen. Acknowledge her feelings. You don't have to agree with them but just listen, listen, listen. She is not with OM at the moment so fill up those needs for attention, demonstrate to extent possible your changes, and seriously look into yourself and grow as an individual (also get in shape, buy new clothes, get a new hairstyle, etc.)

If you can not win her back by the time she comes home then you better look as appealling as possible and consider Plan B a few weeks after her homecoming. If she comes home and blatantly runs to OM's arms then its Plan B time and Plan B will be highly effective after a good Plan A.

Have you exposed OM to his family and friends. You promised not to expose WW (which you can keep since they already know) but you did not promise to protect OM. What can you do.

ACT OUT

I work mostly in computers at the moment, but I've always had a large interest in philosophy and psychology, as well.

In our conversations lately (as in those before we had issues), I have been listening for the most part, and it seems to go well. She'll vent about so and so and what's been happening over there. I'll respond every so often that I understand or repeat something she had mentioned earlier which connects with the topic on hand. There are times of course she is not very forthcoming with the information, and I need to work on coaxing that out of her.

I will admit that when we get into something that weighs heavily on my mind I tend to go around in circles and analyze everything until I figure it out. This came up mostly when I was trying to figure out/understand what was going on at the beginning of the issues and when I found out about the A. I feel that it was mostly that I kept seeing inconsistencies in what she was saying and doing and I kept raising the subject and calling her on it, much to her annoyance. My only worry now is that I may keep on dialoguing the same way when we get into the issue. I feel perhaps I need to make my statements on the issue more concise and simple as opposed to long 'speeches' (speeches bad! rawr!)

Pepperband: It's odd that you mentioned what you did about not letting her continue the affair under my nose without consequences, while I was responding to you in my other post about how exactly to bring up the subject correctly. I guess I'm looking for good tactics to use to accomplish exactly what you are talking about.

I agree with what you are saying Actdontreact. That's kind of what I had been thinking planwise. I'd like to give her some time after she returns, since the physical presence may make some difference as it seemed to be doing when I was with her last. And I *definitely* need to concentrate on improving myself.

I'm looking into finding out more about the OM. I have his phone# and I know he has a brother here, but I'm not sure how to get ahold of him.

Thanks so much for the help!

Just a thought. Your red flags should go up immediately if your WW indicates she is planning a weekend or week get away from her parents home. That is why you need info on the OM. They may plan some trip together if that is even feasible.

It is great that as long as she remains at her parents home she is out of contact with OM physically.

ACT

Yes I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this...I have his phone# so when I get a chance I'm going to start investigating that as far as possible.

I had originally been planning a trip down there in late Dec., but now she says that she and her niece (the one who told her mother and my wife's mother about the situation) are planning a 15 day trip out of town during that time. Like you said, my red flags are going up and I'm watching for any odd circumstances surrounding the trip. If my niece and other family members are with her it should be alright, but there's always the possibility that she's trying to arranged some alone time somehow (backing out of the trip at the last minute, or not actually going with the family, etc.) I did mention it in chat while the niece was there, and I didn't hear her (N) deny that the trip was happening, so it may be a true family excursion.

Sor far I've just been keeping to Plan A and chatting and listening while we can. Not being pushy, just being there and being the newer me + the me that she fell in love with to begin with. Kind of hard when our contact is limited to an hour here and there throughout the week, but I'll take what I can get. I imagine that the greatest results will come when we see eachother in person again, which from what I started to see toward the end of my trip made a lot of difference.

As far as myself I've been trying to get more exercise (just enough to get in shape and feel better), eat better, get out with friends and family, etc. Still trying to find things to occupy my time other than the computer, seeing as that was a big part of my failing before. Finding it hard at the moment since just about everything reminds me of her and our marriage, and I'm still well into the anger phase (you should hear me on my trips to and from work - *rant rant rant*). Other than that I've been fairly stable though.

Again, thanks again everyone for all the advice and support, I truly appreciate it!

Just came up with a bright idea. Ask your wife about things she'd want done to the house as if you were not having this problem in your marriage. You have a lot of time on your hands and need to occupy yourself. Offer to fix up a room or something. A new coat of paint and some redecoration. Just kind of ask her off-hand what room she'd like you to redo, ya know, if you get the chance. Then do it, fix up the room then take digital pictures and email them to her. Regardless of what happens in your marriage it will be time well spent, it will occupy your mind and it may give you a way to meet some minor needs of WW from such a distance. When she sees the pictures it will remind her of "home". I'd recommend having a friend shoot a ton of pictures of you in the room so you can pick out a few that make you look the most desirable but just include a few with your email without disclosing they were selected intentionally.
You could send pictures throughout the process updating her on each step of the makeover.

Just a seemingly innocuous way for you to send her pictures of you. The more connected she can stay with you the better.

What about your sister in law living with you. Is that causing any conflict. Blood is thicker than mud. Is she spying on you and relaying your behavior to sister/family. If so then that she be exploited by insuring you demonstrate the new "nobody9" in front of her.

Finally, you've got a long haul. Be certain to guard against any revenge affair. Be careful not to allow any women (single or otherwise) to start meeting your emotional needs. It may feel great to share your new found "emotionality" with a girl just be careful.


Mr. Wondering

Well, it's not our house, so the whole remodeling thing is out, unless I rearrange our room. Hmm I may need to give that some thought...

Hmm no real conflict with the SIL, but from I understand she thinks I'm a good guy, but was always a bit miffed that I didn't come out to visit all the family more. (I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier, but the main reason I didn't was because I started to get irritated that they were always throwing insults around about my wife - the whole sibling rivalry thing...) I've been trying to be more helpful around the house and more friendly with her, but she locks herself in her bedroom when she gets home from work, and disappears for the entire weekend. Kinda hard to make a good impression that way, but I'm doing what I can.

As far as my general attitude goes, I am DEEP in the anger phase right now. I've been extremely pissed off at my wife recently. Just about everything that's been happening between us lately. There have been times when I've been about to call her, then changed my mind because of my mood.

And after talking to her on the phone today, I almost went over the edge. We started out like normal, how are you and how are the kids?, what have you been doing lately?, how was work?, etc. Then our daughter finds out I'm on the phone, and wants to talk to me. We talk for a couple minutes, then she says, 'I know the name of my mommie's bf, his name is ____'. I am now beyond pissed, I am now livid. It's been 4 hours and I'm still there. I get passed back to my W, and I tell her what our daughter said. She says that she told her(D) that it wasn't true, but it's what they believe, anyway. Honestly I believe this is a pile of ****, but trying not to LB I tell her that it really hurts/bothers me that the children are beginning to think this and are becoming involved. That I worry about what they are going to make of the situation. I also state that I would like that they do not meet the OM while we are still married. She says (agitatedly, as she always is when the subject of the A comes up) she doesn't know what is going to happen and she doesn't know how the children would react or what they will understand. She then says 'besides you(me) told your mother.' I told her that that is entirely different. That my mother understands better than a child can the circumstances of the situation. I worry about about what the children will learn from seeing what is happening. Not to mention that I have every right to seek support and help from my family during a very difficult time.
W then goes into the 'Why are you always going into the same thing over and over? You said you wouldn't bring it up but then you do again' argument. I tell her that she really can't expect me to not talk about it, because what is happening right now is something that is hurting me very much. Also it isn't like it is something that has happened in the past and should be forgotten, it is something that is happening *right now* and is affecting my life.
She goes silent for a bit (a sign that she's getting upset), **and I make a couple of mistakes** (mostly because it wasn't the best question to ask, and at this point is moot-also because an honest answer at this point would be highly unlikely) in asking a question about whether she had been angry with me at the time she began to have the affair. She say no she wasn't angry then. I mention the way she was acting at the time towards me, and she says sorry.

I lose the thread of the convo exactly at this point, I may have said something else but I can't remember. Eventually she says, 'look if all we are going to talk about is this then maybe we should just hang up now'.

**In the future, if she tries this again, I think I'll just respond with something like 'Yes you're right, maybe we should. If we can't manage to talk about the issue, we'll never be able to work things out.' Too much?**

I said ,'look this is something that could (as in final result) affect my life in a very important way, and I'm trying to understand it. Like I said, it's not something that's already happened, it's *still* happening, and we *have* to talk about it sometime. If you want to set some specific time aside to talk about it, fine, but we have to be able to talk about what is going on.' She says,'ok, if you want.' Might be a concession, but also might just be a 'whatever' statement. She did seem less agitated. After this, we relaxed a bit and chatted for over an hour about things that were going on there and here, about the children and what was happening in their school, all sorts of things. I was fine until we hung up, but after that the anger came back and hasn't left since.

I'm glad I managed to get some of my concerns across, but I wonder if I wasn't forceful (or angry) enough.
My mother brought up the point of whether I had ever gotten angry (visibly) at my W before. I said well we've argued before. She says well yes but who was in control of the arguement? The answer: my wife. In almost any conflict we'd ever had, she basically won because I backed down. She pulled the 'if you're going to get angry with me, then I'm going to go silent and ignore you' tactic that she's relied on all her life. And I caved. This may have a large amount to do with how our current situation is progressing. My mom thinks that I need to let her know in some way that I *am* angry about what is happening, and that I won't allow her to walk over me like she has been. I agree with this sentiment (especially with my mood the way it's been), but if I'm trying to plan A right now, I need to make the statement without being too confrontational. She is right though, in that if I don't find a way to hold my ground, she'll be walking all over me all my life, and she may continue to do this sort of thing because I allow it to happen.

Sorry if I seem like I'm rambling, but this stuff's been on my mind for awhile now. It's partly my way of venting, partly my way of working through the thoughts in my head for myself. There is the added of benefit of others being able to look at my thoughts and opine (and so far they have been doing so very wisely, I must say) if they so chooose.

I don't know...Looking at her now I see that there are qualities that she has that I just plain accepted because I loved her (I suppose that is one of the many definitions of love-to love another in spite of their faults). Now though I see that she can be very selfish, and can be manipulating in order to get what she wants. I resent that she feels she has the right to get angry at anyone (including me) for whatever reason (and often), but if anyone criticizes her, gets angry at her, or tell her what she is doing is wrong, she shuts down and refuses to acknowledge that person. Maybe I'm upset because I allowed it to happen. I know that anger is as distorting lens to see someone through as love is, but I really do think that this is something we are going to have to deal with if we are going to work out. I realize that I'm putting the horse before the cart, but I think that this is something that will have to change before we can have a happy marriage together.

Last thoughts.
I highly doubt that she tried so hard to dissuade our daughter from believing that the OM is her BF. If she is worried that the children may be upset about having a new dad, what better way to test the water. I get the feeling that she may be simply getting them used to the OM.
Also, I had complete trust in my wife for the past 3 years of our relationship. I believed everything she told me as the truth, and I still believe that she was telling me the truth then. However she's not the same person anymore, and I felt it the moment she changed. Now I'm not so sure. I have to wonder if she is not simply using me for support while she is waiting out these last 6-9 months with her family, only to leave me when she returns. She's always been adamant that she wasn't the sort of person who would do that sort of thing, to stay with someone only for money or gain...I don't know.

Sorry if I don't make much sense sometimes or if I sometime just flip-flop. It's possible I'll wake up in the morning and feel differently about some of my thoughts here.

I'm just trying to work my way through this *rage* I feel right now, because I know it's just going to cause me (mentally and emotionally) problems otherwise. It's just unhealthy. I'm not going to go and do anything stupid, BTW, in case anyone was worried. The most I would do would be to tell my wife exactly how I feel right now without holding back. While it might make me feel better short term, it would probably null any chances of reconciliation.

I feel that the reason I feel the way I do right now (and perhaps many others are the same), is that I am hurt so much by the betrayal of my trust. I trusted her completely. I remember the exact moment that she told me she met the OM the first time (this was during the time that I never paid attention to her, mind you). I said oh really? I didn't think any more of it because like always we shared everything with eachother. She was being honest with me at that point (it was when she stopped telling me about her friends and her life that I started to suspect what was happening). I thought it was good that she was making friends. I asked a bit about him and that was that. Because I trusted her completely. Not to hurt me, not to lie, not to cheat. To share her feeling and worries, to tell me if there was something wrong or if there was something she needed. I trusted that if she wasn't happy she would tell me...that she wouldn't just give up without saying something.

I know I'm equally to blame for our marital problems. Just ignore me, I think I'm just having a really bad day. I'm going to get some sleep and I'm sure I'll be better in the morning. I apologize if I'm seem like I just feeling sorry for myself, I understand there are others who are far worse off than I am. Just need to get it out of my system....

Thanks for bearing with me.

Wow, I just realized how long that last post was....geez. I need to stop doing that, hahaha.

Well it seems like I'm starting to get past some of the major "rage" issues that I'd been having the last time I posted. There are some triggers that set me off: his name, emails from him, remembering things that she had said before...I know it doesn't help to dwell on the past, especially when the W is in a fog, but it seems I remember something new everyday.
One such was a moment (before D-day during the wondering times) when it felt like she was opening up to me and said that she really didn't want to go home to her country for such a long time, because she said that sometimes when people are apart for so long, they change and things aren't the same when they are together again (she said this happened with her and her ExH). I asked her if she thought I was going to change, and she said she didn't know. I just held her and assured her that I wouldn't and that we would be fine. The kicker is that this memory popped in my head and it occured to me that she might not have been thinking about me changing, but her OM (cross my fingers, hope hope hope that he does!). A pointless exercise that throws me off for a bit, but it's bound to happen unexpectedly, I suppose.

Trying to get out more, see the family and friends, watch movies, go out to a cafe and read for a few hours. Trying to keep a cool head when I talk to the W, but it's soooo hard not to try to tell her how much I miss her and get too emotional/clingy...or try to educate her. I've LB'd on this a couple times. *Bangs head on keyboard repeatedly* The last time we spoke at length I brought up that I missed the way we used to talk at length about everything and anything that happened in the day (as opposed to just 'i'm fine, everyone and everything's fine' type convo's.), and ended up pushing her on the issue too much which led to a few hurtful fog comments from her. When I felt I was starting to get too emotional I told her I didn't feel so good so maybe we could talk the next day. She asked what was the matter (are you sick? Why what's wrong?), and I said don't worry I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow. We said goodbye and we haven't really spoken at length since. Probably not the most graceful exit, I know. I definitely to work on that control.... *smack*

I've started reading b0b pure's threads the past few days, and those have been a real help in cooling me down, seeing his experiences and the amazing insight he and the posters who responded to him have offered up. I feel I've found a good role model to fall back on while I plan A. Just have to keep my emotions in check while I'm on the phone with my W.

In other news, mostly all is the same, other than the fact that it seems all the children now know about the fact that my W feels something for the OM. Discovered this when our eldest (turns 11 this coming Fri.) confided in me that 'Don't tell my mom but, (I think) mom likes another guy.' I told him that I knew, and that it made me feel sad and I hope that she changes her mind. I asked if she had told him about the OM, and he said no. After that the phone got passed around since the other children wanted to chat, so I didn't hear anymore about that.

I was pretty much shot from then for rest of the day, especially thinking that I had told her earlier how I felt about the children getting to know the OM. It just seems like she's not making much effort in not involving them in the situation. Not sure if she's doing it actively, or just playing him off as a friend. Children are pretty smart, though, so I *imagine* they saw her chatting with the OM on the computer and exchanging "love" emoticons. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Thanks again for all the help, advice and understanding, everyone. I really couldn't imagine where I would be at right now if I hadn't found this site so quickly and had all this support and experience to call on.

Nobody9 (grrr how do you guys do it? All my posts are huge even though I try to keep it short and simple! *sob*)

Look NB, it is time to start acting like a man and do the right things for your children, yourself, and maybe your M.

First, you need to sit your children down and tell them the truth. Do not allow your wife to tell them that it is normal to have a BF (since mommy does not like their dad anymore). You have to point out to them that an A is a discusting and immoral thing to do. Do not try to whitewash their mom's behavior. You have to teach your children right from wrong. Since your wife "is not making much effort in not involving them in the situation", it up to you to set the record straight.

Further, I think you are taking Plan A for being a doormat and standing for your right as synonymous with LBying. I think you are dead wrong. If you are willing to do what's right and not enabling your WW in her A--such as letting her go on a 15 day trip soon after D-day (you have to be kidding me!!!)--let me know and we'll come up with a plan to give you a reasonable chance of saving your M and at protecting yourself and your children.

Whatever you do, please smell the coffee!