believer, How can we get MortarMan or others from the Gramn thread (or other) to spend a little thought on this lady?

I don't know how to contact them without hijacking Gramn's thread, which is incredibly rude.

Let's see, she could go back to first page and change the title to Help Mortarman.

But more importantly - Sad Mommy - are you starting to eat right? Be sure to force lots of fluids.

I'm quite sure your husband will be back.

What did he complain about before all of this happened?

He basically said that I have been neglecting him since before DD came along. He said he always puts my happiness ahead of his and he is "all used up" now. He said I mother him (I admit, I nag him about smoking because I can't stand it). He also said I'm controlling and always have to have my way. I think he's exaggerating. We both have strong personalities and are both stubborn.

He says he was ready to end it in Dec. 04. I remember now on Xmas Eve... we were supposed to be at his parents house for a family dinner, and he was nowhere to be found. Wouldn't answer his cell phone. I was afraid he'd been in an accident. He finally comes home and says he'd been walking around a park thinking about things and that we needed to talk. We were more than an hour late getting to the dinner. Then we got busy with the holidays and home improvement projects and never had that talk, and then my dad died two weeks later. He told me recently that he didn't have the heart to end it when I was going through that. And then DD came along...

He even said the other night that I "manipulated" him into having a baby before he wanted to. I don't remember putting a gun to his head.

All of the conversations we had had before the bomb was dropped were about the differences in SDs. I'm guessing that that is just the way it came out because he wasn't able to communicate much beyond that. It's a lack of intimacy, which fuels the lack of sexual contact, which fuels the lack of intimacy. You know the cycle. Although, I don't think once a week when you have a small child is that bad.

MC said that on the surface, our life together looked really good but didn't have the emotional substance behind it.

Hey believer, since I'm new to this whole BB thing, how do I go about changing the title of the thread?

bump

sad, to edit the title go to the first post and click on edit. You can then change the title. The whole lack of emotional connection thing is dealt with in a book our MC gave us called Safe Haven Marriage. Can't remember the author right now.

Also I would recommend "Love Must be Tough" by James Dobson and "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" by somebody Harvey (not Harley, although it goes w/o saying those are great too).

What worked for me was a combination of Plan A niceness, and Dobson's calm toughness of "opening the cage door." This is REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY. You are NOT telling him you want a D or anything like that, you just are showing self-respect by refusing to be involved in a triangle marriage, put up with lies and disrespect, and lovingly opening what he feels is a cage door. As you will read in those books, that makes the WS start to question what they really want.

This seems like just the point your WH needs to be brought to to me... just my 2 cents.

Well, now you have some things to work on. The things he complained about. Even if you don't think you have problems in those areas, start checking your behavior very carefully.

Also sex once a week is not enough. Get the book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands", by Dr. Laura Schlessinger.

Now I've really done it... Not even an hour before H was to come over to visit DD today, I get a call from POW's XBF, who was looking for her b/c she was supposed to visit him this weekend. He hadn't heard from her and was worried about her safety. I told him I hadn't heard from her.

He knows about the sit b/c he came to visit a couple weeks ago. He said some things that really ticked me off... like how H had told POW he would need a place to stay b/c things could get ugly. This was a few days before he dropped the bomb. When I called her that night, she acted really surprised and said she had no idea. XBF also said he felt totally ignored when he was visiting. In fact, he himself accused POW and H of being together, which POW vehemently denied. He said it didn't look like anyone had been sleeping on the couch and ended up leaving instead of staying there.

I really hate being lied to, and I didn't have time to cool off before H came over, so I let him have it.
Me: Why can't you just tell me the truth so I can get on with my life?
H: You're just looking for an easy answer b/c you can't accept the truth that we just grew apart.
Me: Regardless of whether it's a PA or not, you have a level of intimacy with her that is not right for a married man to have with a single woman. That is energy you should've been putting into M. Granted, I wasn't putting everything into M like I should have b/c I am focused on DD. Maybe I wasn't meeting your emotional needs, so you were getting that from her.
H: When I didn't get what I needed, I had to get it somewhere.
Me: That is EA, and it is just as bad if not worse than PA. That is breaking your vows.
H: Call it what you want to call it.

He then said he had only come to see DD, and if it was a bad time he would leave. I told him I was sorry for lashing out, but that I was feeling very angry hurt and upset and had a right to feel that way.

So then I left to run errands, which brings us to right now.

Grrr, so now what? I totally flew off the handle and definitely shouldn't have gone into it, but I couldn't help it. I was just so mad. Any advice?

I know you are hurting and I certainly don't want it to be more painful, but it might be useful to you to examine a thing or two.



I'm male, and you know what, I don't think so either. My wife's quote was 'I don't think once a month when you have a small child is that bad'. I would have killed for once a week.

However, my point is NOT in support of once a week. In fact the opposite.

Your inviolate position INVALIDATES his needs.

My wife's inviolate position, INVALIDATED my needs to be close to her, and close to our babies, as I would have felt closer to the babies through a tight bond with her.

You can probably see that when you look at my wife's quote. You might say, well she's not being reasonable, once a week is more like RIGHT. There is NO RIGHT.

There is only RESPECT for our differences. And, RESPECT for what the other person's needs are to feel close to you. By you having this inviolate position (and it does read inviolate; as in YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT) you are rejecting him, he is hearing that he is NOT NORMAL; he is hearing that he may never get his needs met through you; he is hearing that the close spousal and family bond that he dreamed about was only a fantasy (with you). You are blocking the only way he knows how to be truly close to you and in many ways share your bond with the child.

Read Dr. Laura Schlesinger, the Caring and Feeding of Husbands, or 'The Sex-Starved Marriage' by Weiner-Davis to read some heartfelt letters from husbands about their heartbreak over not being able to share their love through physical intimacy. You will have a hard time not crying. I do and I'm suppossed to be a tough guy.

Now, what am I trying to prove. It is important that you experience the pain that this little difference in opinion that you shrug off has caused. And, it's just one thing. I'm sure there are others.

Here's an exercise that I've tried unsuccessfully to get my wife to do.

List all of my complaints. One per page in a journal.
Then answer the following questions:
* What is H complaint?
* What is the positive thing for your relationship that H wants associated with the complaint?
* What is H feelings at not receiving?
* What has been keeping you from satisfying his request?
* What would H feelings be if you satisfied his request?
* Would the R prosper overall if you satisfied his request?
* Knowing these positive feelings would result and the relationship would prosper, could you make the commitment to enthusiastically meet H request (satisfy complaint)?
* If not, what would H have to do to free you up to enthusiastically satisfying his need?

Yes, this is a long list. I've done this on the other side for my W complaints and I came to the absolutely STUNNING realization that I could COMMIT today to satisfying all but one of her complaints. It made me SICK to know that my sadistic, and HardHeaded (hence the name) ego has destroyed the love my wife had for me. Most of the things she wanted were EASY, but I was typically punishing her for not meeting my needs (now that's a different story...she still doesn't want to meet mine).

Make your list. It will keep you busy for hours or even days.

Share them here if you want...or not. Sharing them here could help make your new commitments REAL. It's one of the twelve steps.

And, don't blame yourself too much, none of us learned about this stuff. There should be classes in school on relationships and needs and such. It would be way better for our society than remembering dates of civil war events.

Plus, your husband was an equal partner in not getting his needs met and is equally to blame. Instead of having an open, emotional, soul baring conversation with you, he had that same conversation with OW, hence the affair. Who wouldn't fall in love with a man that is that emotional and wants to be loved as deeply as he does. Too bad for him he didn't seduce his wife through open conversation to love him like that.

My best wishes are with you.

We've all flown off the handle. Give yourself a break. Your relationship will not make or break from one bad interaction.

I think you made some very cogent points to him regarding appropriateness and morality. But you're getting this from a guy that has made all the wrong moves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Of course you used SHOULDs and that is a DJ.




This is interesting. Are you telling him that if he has had a physical affair then it is over? That's what that statement is saying. That's OK if that's what you meant.

But, if you believe you can forgive him and you want to have your family back, you CANNOT make that statement because it gives him nowhere to go but be with her. She's his only option for happiness.

Now let's look at his reaction. If he interpreted it to mean as I've described that disclosure of a PA means no chance with you, and a part of him still wants to be with you, then he would in NO WAY disclose that information to you because it would shut the door to any possibility of being with you. Therefore, one interpretation of his lack of admission is that a part of him still holds some hope of being happy with you.

But, it's only one interpretation. He may be just afraid of the pain you'll cause with his family if he discloses.

So, what do you want? Would you still want him? DO YOU still want him? Because, disclosure or not, we all know he's having a PA with her. He's not sleeping on the couch.

If you believe you can forgive him, and you want your family, then you need to TELL HIM that. Don't beg, don't plead, just make a statement.

'I made a commitment for better or worse. The way I look at it is that this the 'for worse' part. I believe I can forgive you. I am willing to understand and meet your needs. I'd like us to be a family again someday. I'm open to talking about that as a possibility in a respectful and rational manner whenever you are.'

Then be done. Everything has been said. If you stay engaged in the conversation it will just be a rehash of blaming and resentment of unmet needs.

Nothing takes away blame and anger faster than an apology and contriteness. Don't defend yourself, that will only make him more steadfast.

'I have had a lot of time to think. I am starting to see that I hurt you deeply by not prioritizing you, neglecting you, rejecting you, and not appreciating everything you do for me and the baby. I have many regrets. I hope you will be able to forgive me in the future. I do believe that I can be the W you deserve.'

Now, given the personal violation you are experiencing that will be very tough to say. But, focus on the fact that you will take away his source of anger and resentment and possibly touch him at a deep level. You will be validating him and his feelings. How can he stay mad at you if his feelings and emotions are validated. This is what the OW did. She validated him. She made him feel like his needs were not unreasonable, that he was NORMAL.

Validating his feelings and needs is not the same as approving of his selfish and immoral actions. Separate the two, and do not talk about his selfish and immoral actions because there is NO WAY you can be approving, and therefore you can only make him WRONG and push him back to the OW where he is OK.

A part of you will be very angry and interpret your actions as groveling. That's the HARD HEAD part of you. You are NOT groveling. You are finally becoming objective about how much pain your neglect has caused. Now, your brain has switched to focusing on 'but what about the pain his actions have caused?'. YUP. Doesn't matter. He won't be remorseful and contrite until AFTER you truly validate his needs. And that could be a long, long time.

First, you need to forgive yourself. Because, as you look at yourself, you will be SICK. I WAS. I AM. I have to forgive myself almost everyday. But, I'm a better person now. I am not going to be like that old person, and neither are you.

Best wishes.

Oh well, don't worry about it. You will find that even worse than the affair is the continual lying. My WH has never told me the truth in 3 years. And he has been living with the OW the whole time. Her car was parked at his place every night, and he had the nerve to tell me she was sleeping in her car.

That is what made me never want him back. I just got too tired of the lies.

Thank you for giving me so much to think about, HardHead. I like the idea of doing the complaint pages in a journal. That may prove to be very helpful.

I also appreciate the suggested statements. In my more rational interactions with H, I sound a lot like that first one.

The reason why I'm trying to push the morality of the situation is that H is a pretty big stickler for the rules and is into honor, keeping promises and vows, etc. In fact, he said he made his final decision while we were attending a wedding. When he heard them recite their vows, he said he was tearing up because he felt like he didn't have that anymore.

Thanks for the book suggestions. Yesterday as I was out doing errands, I stopped by the library and picked up the Dobson and Schlessinger books, along with a few others. One about emotional infidelity and how to avoid it, one called Sudden Endings (written by a woman whose H left her unexpectedly), and a couple others about D and custody (gotta be prepared either way, right?)

DD and I are going to church this morning. Haven't been in a LOOOONG time b/c H isn't that into it. Plus, I'm supposed to be meeting up with a co-worker this afternoon to visit. Trying to stay busy... H will come tomorrow night to see DD.

Good job, get yourself up and go to church. That's a good chance to reflect, get some time to think and a fresh perspective, and focus on what really matters in this life.

Start with the Dobson, I can't help but say. If you are a loss about what's going on and what to DO, it's a great starting point.

Dr. Laura's great when you have a little time to think about how you can Plan A him and learn about his EN's. And yeah, I read my share of divorce/custody books. My very saddest were going to Barnes & Noble and buying a picture book by Mr. Rogers on explaining divorce to your preschooler. I'm tearing up just thinking about it. Never had the courage (or God prevented me) from reading it to her - we are not D as you can see! Praise God! But it sure looked that way for a while.

Meeting up with friends to visit is great therapy too. Everyone will have their two cents on what you need to do, assimilate and use as needed. A shoulder to cry on never hurts either (FEMALE or your Dad or brother!)

If you want a daily devotional to help you understand the suffering and God's reasons for allowing that into your life, and how to cope with it and draw strength from God, try "Streams in the Desert" - I'm a broken record recommending it, but here I go again!

SM, I am not sure what you think you did wrong here, but it looks like it was a very productive exchange to me. You laid the facts right out on the table and let him know that you are not fooled into thinking this is not an affair. You should be having these discussions with him.

At least I hope you are not fooled. Your H is in a full fledged affair, likely a PA; at the least an EA.

Have you exposed this affair yet? It sounds like the OW's BF knows what is going on, has he done any exposing?

It would cause great conflict in the affair if you would both team up and expose it. I would start at work, then move onto to your H's family, your family and close friends. It would be helpful if the OW's bf would expose to her parents. Exposure will ruin the affair when they are forced to see how silly they look in the eyes of others when asked to explain.

I suspect the affair has been going on for quite some time, SM, at least sometime before December when he started tellng you he was unhappy. I know that he is trying to tell you that his unhappiness stems from your behavior, but I suspect this is mostly exaggerated in order to justify the unjustifiable. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't pay attention to what he says, but I don't believe for a minute he is leaving you for anything other than his affair. His saying so is just a classic WS ruse.

Thanks, Notsolost. I had no idea Mr. Rogers has a divorce book. How sad. I started reading the Dobson book last night.

I know that DD and I will be just fine, with or without H, but dang it, I want our family back! Right now, with all the mean things he's said to me, it's so hard to see that happening. Even my own mother says I should probably give up. I just can't let go, though.

bump, please

Did you see MelodyLane's post to you? If so, could you please answer the questions in it...I think you guys may have been posting at the same time and you may have missed it...She's one of the pros you put a call out for...

Thanks,

Mrs. Wondering

Yep, we must've been posting at the same time.

In answer to your Qs, Melody...

I have told his family and our mutual friends. What I've done is lay out the facts. I tell them where he is staying (he claims he didn't tell his folks b/c they didn't ask), about the phone calls, and other incriminating evidence. They then draw their own conclusion about A and usually say something along the lines of, "Gee, I thought they were interacting a little too closely to be just friends." I then say how much I want our family to be reunited.

I doubt OW's XBF would do much more than what he has done, b/c he doesn't want to rock the boat and doesn't have much weight with her friends/family anyway. I'm sure OW's family MUST know or at least suspect. We live in a college town. They all come here for football games, and H goes with them.

I found out Friday that OW has been offered a permanent position where they both work. I don't know how to crack that nut, b/c H hasn't worked there long and I don't know any of his co-workers well enough to do it. Most of his co-workers are young, male and single. Only a couple are married, and only one has a child (another one's wife is expecting). The boss thinks very highly of H, and I don't want to jeopardize his job b/c he needs to be supporting DD. I'm afraid it could really blow up in my face. He's already angry at me for telling our mutual friends, saying that I'm not taking their feelings into consideration, that I'm putting them in an akward position. I countered with the fact that I'm fighting for our family.