So what should I do?

As far as "neglect" goes, here are the examples he's given:

When he comes up behind me while I'm cooking and tries to give me a hug, I have shrugged him off (for example, when I'm standing over the stove, chopping with a knife, or loading up the dishwasher).

I haven't been as interested in ML as I used to be. Not that I'm trying to make excuses, but I'm still nursing DD and that really messes with your SD. And I've never really been much of an initiator on that front, either. Not sure why... my SD is lower than his. Once we are involved, though, I really get into it. I'm just a slow starter.

He says we don't have anything to talk about anymore except DD b/c we never do anything interesting as a couple. We have talked about getting a babysitter once a week but never followed through. Never made plans. We have talked about going for walks after dinner, but that hasn't happened either. We were eating dinner together as a family, which was nice.

Other things I can think of, but he hasn't mentioned:
We used to play board games all the time, but I've been too busy with DD. Once she goes to bed, I'm pretty wiped out myself and usually go to bed earlier than he does b/c I know I'll be getting up at 3 a.m. to feed her.

At night, I'm not really a cuddler. Part of the reason is that it's hard for me to get and stay comfortable at night. Part of the reason is that many a night, I would wake up to find him messing with me in his sleep, which bothered me.

Sometimes in the mornings, when we are really rushed, I wouldn't take the time to appreciate him wanting to give me a hug/kiss while I'm rushing around getting ready for work.

His ENs tend to be very physical, but I don't understand how I can meet them in Plan A when he says he's no longer attracted to me at all. I try to engage him in conversation, showing interest in his work, but that's about all I can do on the EN front.

Any other ideas?

Hi, I'm really not trying to make you feel worse. I just get concerned by some of the psychologists that believe that we all should be euphorically fulfilled all by ourselves, without any help from a spouse.

I can answer your questions, but unfortunately you won't have much of a chance to 'prove yourself' for awhile. However, eventually I do believe you need to look at your behaviors and how you can modify them ever so slightly to provide the emotional support your H was missing.



What would it hurt if you turned around with a big smile on your face and gave him a long (15 second hug) where you pressed your body up against his. Trust me when I say we don't seriously think you are going to want to have sex on the kitchen floor. We just want to think that you might. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on how nursing et. al. affects your drive, but one author is a big proponent on DOING first which stokes the fire, then DESIRE comes after in a woman. Either that, or it's important to make the husband feel like a priority. Plus, having relations with a husband soon after the baby promotes the H to bond with the baby.



The woman being the initiator tells the man that he's worthy, that he's attractive, that he's desired, and that she wants him and needs him in a physical way. This is possibly the single most important need for most men by a factor of 10x; this need to feel desired and wanted. You cannot underestimate it.

It we are always pursuing, and often being met with rejection, and never actually being pursued, what would our HE-MAN think is your desire and want for him?



Yeah, I've heard that one. You have to talk about your life, your job, some cool stuff that's happening at work,... I don't know. It's very difficult. I have trouble finding conversations w/ my wife. I just look at her and think about how darn beautiful she is, and she gets uncomfortable and says 'What?'



MARITAL NEGLECT. Me too.



MARITAL NEGLECT. Me too. Passive voice. It doesn't just happen, or happen to you; you make it happen, or you don't.



And, part of the reason is you don't want to encourage him because he'll want to have sex? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

This is a tough one. And, a lot of guys are different in this area so I'm afraid to comment. But, a little cuddling and affection and sexiness (not sex), but good kissing and wrapping ourselves around each other would fulfill a bit of my need to feel desired and wanted. Say 5 minutes. Then if she was exhausted I might be more understanding...I hope. But, you'd have to talk about this because it would be confusing from a 'message' standpoint.



You already know there is something wrong with your response. See cooking answer above. 15-30 seconds and you can be on your way and your H will feel desired and wanted.

Why is he so needy? I don't know, we just are. Fundamentally, we are SOOOO insecure.


The ones that you notice are physical. He didn't just fall for OW because she jumped in the sack with him on Day 1. Not even Day 15, or Day 30 probably. She seduced him over that time by meeting his other emotional needs.

She made him feel NOT WRONG for feeling the way he does. She VALIDATED him for having strong FEELINGS.
She VALIDATED him for having a desire for a better life.
Start to imagine his complaints, and you can imagine what her reactions were to make him feel good about himself.

You can do the same things. NOW.

Thos conversations with her started out haltingly, probingly. He probably didn't want to spill too much because he didn't know how she would react. He grew to trust in her reactions and actions, until finally he felt understood by her.

If you are patient, you may be able to do the same thing to him. If this were a game you could probably come up with a patient game plan to make it happen. Try to imagine him being married to her, and you wanting to steal him away; I know you aren't that kind of person to do that normally, but how would you go about it?

You'd create situations where you would be together for starters. Then you'd get him talking. You'd be understanding. You'd be supportive. You'd validate him. etc. etc.

I hope I didn't make you feel worse. I know you are going through a lot. We all are.

Regards

Thanks again, HardHead. And no, you didn't make me feel worse. I don't see how that's possible. I actually appreciate the insight of another man on these issues.

I have been trying to talk to H every time he comes over, so maybe that will help. I try to be light. We've got to get to the point where I can start doing the stuff you're talking about.

H said he plans to go up to the mountains and walk around today. Maybe he's still thinking about things... He has seemed a little sad when he leaves the house lately. Friday night, he made a point to say goodbye to all our pets.

SM05, You DO have opportunity.

You are now the other woman. Think like her. Be her.

When the relationship is young the OW has very few opportunities to be around the TARGET. But, she uses those opportunities to be supportive, and to validate.

She identifies more opportunities to be around him, without appearing like she's chasing him or is needy. This one will be tougher, but you do have your daughter, your house, your car, etc.

For example, you might want him to come over and baby sit because you are going to a support group, or just going out. Don't get a baby sitter, get him. Then you can talk to him coming and going. And, he can see you looking fine dressed in the new casual but sexy way.

The house could have a problem that needs fixing. Maybe a toilet leak. A couple of turns on a nut and things just leak.

You could start repainting a room and ask him to help.

When he comes in the door, STOP what you are doing, and greet him warmly. Remember, he's used to you ignoring him when you are busy. That will be a 180.

What about fall cleanup at the house. He could do the work and you can make him lunch and chat for awhile.

What else would the OW do if she were to try to steal this man?

OK, this is not probably a good idea, but ... does your husband have any single (male) friends at work or outside of work that you could befriend? Getting 'friendly' with that person, talking about your problems, etc, while certainly dangerous, could create an interesting dynamic for your husband to react to.

Anyway, think positive. You can come up with all kinds of devious ways to put yourself in the position to meet a few of his needs.

Sunday is almost over. God Sundays are H3LL!

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been trying to put a few of them into practice, especially the going out part. Remember, one of my goals is to not hang around too much when he comes to see DD. Just about everytime he comes over, I'm dressed up to go out. I'll hang out for about 30 minutes, trying to engage him in conversation, then I leave. That's a 180 for me, not hanging around moping.

I have tried offering him food several times, making sure to cook his favorite stuff when he's coming over, but he always declines. Heck, he won't even get one of our glasses out when he wants a drink... he'll grab a disposable cup.

He'll come over again at some point this evening. He still hasn't found his own apartment yet. I don't know if that's a positive sign or not. It COULD be positive, as in, maybe he's not really sure he wants to do this? Or it could be really negative, as in, gee, I don't want to leave OW's place. I'm just so exhausted about all this!

SadMommy~

I haven't posted to you in a while because I've had pneumonia...but I've still been reading and praying for you. In the beginning when I posted to you, I was already beginning to feel bad, which is why my posts to you have been pretty blunt and to the point. I don't want you to take that to mean that I was being uncaring toward you, and I'm afraid that may have been how I have seemed to you.

On the contrary, your story is one of the most heartbreaking to me, from the beginning it has touched me in a way that few others have. Perhaps because of the fact that you have an 8 month old baby girl...my daughter is 5, almost 6 now, but I remember just how difficult that infanthood can be...I also remember 8 months old as the age when finally all the seemingly thankless work began to really payoff, and motherhood became such a joy...it hurts me to the core to think that you are not getting to enjoy this time to the fullest.

I get so angry that I want to come and shake your husband until he gets just how horrible what he is doing truly is...SadMommy, I tell you this, so that maybe you will understand my bluntness, and allow it to help you, rather than letting it distance you from me...I so want your family not to miss this time of fleeting wonder...

I know that you need support, and I would like nothing more than to coddle you, but what you need more is for your husband to wake up, come to his senses and rejoin your family...the only way that that is going to happen is for that affair to be over...your family's best chance for survival lies in your hands, I know that you are scared, but you must EXPOSE this affair...there is NO other option...

HardHead is giving you great advice about meeting your H's ENs, but until that A is over, you will NEVER get the chance to heed that advice...I beg you, because I honestly do care...please shine reality on your husband's A and EXPOSE it at work...I'll help you in any way that I can, what do you need?

Mrs. Wondering

Hi, Mrs. Wondering. I hope you're feeling better.

I appreciate your support, but I don't see how anything anyone says could possibly help. Iam feeling utterly hopeless right about now. H just left. I really don't see any way at all that we'll be able to work things out. He has made it perfectly clear that he's not interested. At all. Not even remotely. I don't think there's one little shred, one little spark in him. At all. I asked why we bought a house and had a child if he felt this way, and he said DD is here for a reason.

He said there's no way he's ever coming back, that I made him very unhappy, that he tried as hard as he could every day. I asked him what I did that was so terrible, and he said it was what I didn't do. He said he didn't think I had any passion unless I wanted something. He said the two months around DD's conception were the best things had ever been for us, and he thinks it's only because I wanted a baby so badly. I told him that it was only about him and me, and he said he didn't believe me.

I told him it seems like he's trying to blame me for everything that went wrong b/c he's trying to justify what he knows in his heart to be wrong. He said he's been thinking and praying about it for two years now and is not going to change his mind.

He said everyone at work knows the situation, that they know where he's living, and that they're supportive. I will call over there either tomorrow or Weds. to just leave him a message about DD (he has been really busy, so it could work). I know the new secretary, and she will probably want to talk about things. Then I will find out how supportive they are.

I can't understand how someone could be so callous and cold toward the person they vowed to love and cherish. I just have no idea how to handle this. Everyone says I'm strong, but I don't think I'm strong enough to go through this. I really don't know what to do. I feel like I've done an OK job holding things together for DD so far, but I've been doing it by holding onto a shred of hope that this will blow over. But now, I'm afraid the reality is setting in, and I feel completely hopeless.

SM, have you ever read any of the Marriage Builder's material? Many marriages have come back frm far worse situations than yours. Your H is saying all the classic things a WS in the throes of an addiction says, there is nothing different here, nothing. Many of us here are quite baffled why you won't do anything to save your marriage. It is far from hopeless. But it is hopeless if you won't do a thing to save it, because it will be a self fulfulling prophecy.

Okay, SadMommy, no hopelessness! You know what, in addition to reading Surviving An Affair, you might want to look at Weeping Willow's thread on the Just Found Out... board. Just to get a feel of how quickly the WH's feelings can go from anger, to confusion, to attempts at recovery and no contact - just from Plan A!

There is hope - do NOT give up!

[color:"brown"]
Isaiah 40:26
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one,
and calls them each by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.
[/color]

ML and NTL,

Why do you keep saying I'm not doing anything to save our marriage? Please go back and read one of my previous posts here about my attempts at Plan A and tell me what I need to change, besides exposing at work, which is going to happen today or tomorrow. I have told his family, my family, and our friends. I have tried to identify his ENs, but it's very hard to meet those in our present situation. My biggest problem is, I have a hard time staying focused on Plan A because I'm so emotional right now. I also want to know, how long do you try Plan A? I think I had read somewhere on the site 3 months for women and 6 months for men, or do I have that backwards? I was thinking of trying it until January.

Okay, SadMommy~

NO HOPELESSNESS...Seriously, I do understand, I have often said that if it had been my H that had the A, I am such an emotional person that Plan A would have been near impossible for me...HOWEVER, I've been on these boards long enough to see Plan A WORK MIRACLES, so now, I think I could do it...SO CAN YOU!!! SM, you have to understand that none of us were in super duper perfect marriages when this happened to us...When I think about the way that I treated my H, I am so ashamed...Many marriages have recovered that were in worse shape than yours...

That being said, now that you are on board, what other exposure targets do you have left? I know that you said that your in-laws know, but how much do they know? They need brutal honesty about what their son is doing to their grandchild! I doubt that the people in your H's office know the full extent of what he is doing, IF they know anything at all-WSes LIE LIE LIE! You need to find people from the OW's life to expose to...her parents, friends, etc...Call that EX BOYFRIEND, and get him to fill you in...EXPOSURE works best when it's all done in one fell swoop and to people that have influence on the lives of the infidels...What exactly are you planning to say when you expose? Let's get a plan going...Hey, I think that there is a lot of hope for your marriage, but even if there wasn't, wouldn't you still just want to bust up this riduculous fantasyland that your H has created? SM, can you find a little more time to be on this board so that you can have actual dialog with people? If you can, you'll find that you will get more help that way...the more heads working on this the better...Let us help you to help yourself!!!

Mrs. Wondering

SM, I have read ALL of your posts and know exactly what you are doing. Plan A includes EXPOSURE. Exposure ruins the affair and the only hope for the marriage is ruining the affair. He has not been exposed at work and this is a work affair. I would imagine there are exposure opportunities in HER family also. Did YOU expose the affair to his parents? Or did he? If he did, then likely they were told a lie. There is nothing in your arsenal that is as effective as exposure, nothing.

But, we have already told you this. It is frustrating to us to see you throw in the towel when there are so many opportunities.

Plan A is supposed to be executed as long as it is effective, then one moves into Plan B. But, Plan A should include a complete and effective exposure.

SadMommy, I didn't say you weren't doing anything to save your marriage... but I do hope the exposure at work happens soon - I wish I had done it. Would have speeded things up. I think ML is trying to prompt you to that action.

What I said, was that you don't need to feel hopeless!

IMO, you do Plan A until it isn't working anymore. When my WH just would NOT get off the fence, just could NOT decide between us, and I started to want it over one way or another, I filed for D (that was my Plan B). As you can see, it worked. But Plan B is not a manipulation or empty threat, and it can result in divorce. Plan A alone, I am confident, would have worked for me if OW hadn't kept playing the pregnancy card. Everytime WH almost got to the point of wanting to work things out w/ me, she would say she was pg - twins, triplets, fake test results, fake lab results, threaten abortion, you name it! Finally she succeeded, but he isn't with her anyway, in part because she's such a liar.

I have confidence your Plan A + exposure will work for you...

Melody has much more experience seeing different scenarios and can answer better how long to stay in Plan A and questions about exposure, since I never got further in exposing than you are already.

Thanks again. As far as exposure targets, about all I can think of now is OW's mother and the office. H is pretty much OW's only friend, too. Everyone else has been covered. Not sure how I can get to her mom, b/c she only has a cell phone and I don't know the number. I will do my best, though. I will have to go through our cell phone bill several months back b/c at one point OW was using her mom's phone.

I'm the one who exposed it to his family, and I told them everything I know. He hadn't even told them where he was staying "b/c they didn't ask." But I did. And then some. I've told his parents, sister and aunt. Now that I think about it, I need to tell his uncle as well, b/c he has been talking to him about the big D. (That's the one who stayed in an unhappy marriage for the kids and is starting over again in mid-50s).

As far as the office goes, I need an excuse to call. I'm thinking of asking the secretary to leave H a message for me (b/c he has been busy and I wouldn't want to disturb him) to bring something for DD the next time he comes over, which will be tomorrow night. I'm sure she will want to talk about it, b/c our families have hung out together a few times and I consider her a friend. Here's how I envision it:

Sec: I'm so sorry to hear about what happened.
SM: Thanks, it's not every day your H leaves you and your baby daughter for another woman.
Sec: What do you mean?
SM: Don't you know about H's affair with OW?
Sec: That's crazy.
SM: That's what happened. Think about it. When H walked out, he took off his wedding ring and went straight to OW's house, where he has been living for a month. When I went over there, all his stuff was in the bathroom in her bedroom, and she had lacy underwear spread out all over the room. He didn't even take his pillows with him when he left.
Sec: That's awful!
SM: Before this happened, they spoke on the phone constantly at all hours of the day and night, five or six times a day. He would always go outside to talk to her. He even helped her get the job at your company, and she lived at our house for 3 weeks. She would come over to our house all the time but would wait until I was gone before she came over. I have told H before that his "friendship" with her goes far beyond what a married man should have with a single woman. He told me last week that he wasn't getting it from me, so he had to go somewhere else for it.

...I'm not sure what else should be included in that, or what kind of reaction to expect. Any thoughts?

I think I would expose to the management. Otherwise you will just be starting some gossip which will blow over.

Manangement may be able to stop the affair, or at least stop them working together.

SM, I am not suggesting that you expose to his coworkers, but to his boss, her boss and the Human Resource department.

Do you know where her mom lives? You could pay her a visit. I would try to do any exposures on the same day, if possible, to get the maximum effect.

Have your in-laws been introduced to the OW?

Good point about the gossip. It's a very small company, and there is no real HR dept. Sec is the wife of H's immediate supervisor, if that means anything. I'm not sure who OW's immediate boss is.

OW's mom lives in another city and I have no idea where.

And yes, the in-laws have met OW. She hung around the hospital the day we were taking DD home and also came to a party I threw for H's college graduation. When I told MIL about H admitting EA, she said, "Just EA? I've seen it." So far, pressure from them is having no effect on H.

SM, can you describe the work situation? Is there an onsight owner? Do you know his supervisor? What does the OW do? What does your H do?

The OW came to your party and the hospital? Did you about the affair then?

SM, did you tell his parents and the rest of his family that your H is having an AFFAIR? Or did you just say "H is sleeping at OW's house?" Because you leave room for doubt if you do this. You know he is in an affair and this truth should be conveyed as a FACT, not as supposition, or left for others to draw their own conclusion.

I would also make it clear to him that you are not stupid, that you know he is having an affair and has been having one for some time. You don't need his admission to know the truth. See what I mean?

It's a fairly new, very small engineering firm. H is a entry-level landscape architect, and OW was the temporary secretary but I think they're hiring her to do drafting. They will be sending her to school so she can get the training she needs.

At the time OW came to our party and the hospital, I did not know about the affair, or perhaps I was in denial. I still find it hard to believe that the man I have trusted could do something like this. I had been suspicious before but never said much b/c I trusted H. He's an Eagle Scout, for crying out loud! I've been saying a lot recently, though:

"You're going to spend all day helping OW again? I was really hoping we could spend some time together. I was hoping we could go do x today."

"It seems like you talk to OW an awful lot. I wish you would talk to me more."

When he got her the job: "Be careful. You haven't worked there long, and people may think there's something going on with you and OW."

When she invited him to a football game w/out me a couple weeks before he dropped the bomb: "Why would she invite only you? She knows I've never been to a game. That sounds like a date."

When he suggested we get a babysitter so the three of us could go see a movie together when she was living at our house: "I would rather get a babysitter so you and I could go out alone. It's been a long time since we've had a date."