ANY AMOUNT THAT HE HIDES FROM YOU IS A BIG DEAL!!!

IT IS WRONG!!

BTW - If there is any significant sum of money sitting in a joint savings account (whether Money Market or Savings) you should consider going to the bank to discuss with a representative (not the teller) the option of making all or any one single account a dual signature account. Then WH will not think you are on to him about the secret account but you will be protected. You both will have to sign to remove monies.

I presume right now he is sharing in your household expenses and all or part of his paycheck is being deposited into your joint checking account. If you guys are just getting by paycheck to paycheck you may not want to mess with any of your accounts as he could just change his paycheck auto deposit to some other account to which you have no access to. I am only concerned above with any savings account.

As far as any IRA, I think he would need his spouse's signature to withdraw any funds early from an IRA. If you do it together be certain to check the withholding tax box so they withhold and pay the taxes before they give you the money. These situations can be tricky as next April 15 regardless of the situation you guys are in you two will have to file and pay a joint tax return (unless you file married filing separately). On that note, next April be really certain to look over any joint return very carefully. If he will lie to you...he will lie to the IRS...if you sign it then he makes you a responsible liar too.

Finally, meeting a representative at the bank also alerts the bank to your situation. They then know there is a reason to be concerned about your family's money and husband may be more readily stopped if he tries to forge your signature to anything.

I am sorry you have to endure this.

Mr. Wondering

SadMommy, we ended up splitting our finances both times we separated. I went straight from my attorney's office to the bank.

I joked after a year of it, that when they saw me coming, they pulled out a blank signature card! Because I dropped WH, added my Mom, then added WH and dropped my Mom, then dropped WH again and added Mom, then reconciled and dropped WH. This time I left Mom on... what the heck.

He voluntarily removed himself from the joint checking account - of course I could not do it w/o his knowledge and signature. But we just split the $ in savings two times, and he kept the portion of the direct deposit going in like he had prior, just changed the amount.

My point is, the money issue sucks, and I was going to mention to you yesterday about protecting yourself and getting his name off those accounts, but it sounded like he was willing to sit down and have a reasonable discussion tomorrow over lunch... so it seemed unnecessary.

Either of the two of you can withdraw all the money from any joint account at any time. I ended up opening a new account at a bank and a new checking account and discontinuing the credit union we had used together... ick.

It's such a pain to go through all of that, especially with all the auto-pay and direct deposits, debit cards, etc. But it is important to protect yourself, while being as "fair" and non-inflammatory as possible. Since he seems he[[bent on separation/divorce right now, he shouldn't have a problem with the concept that it is time to separate the money... I agree that I wouldn't mention the account you found out about.

Oh, and SadMommy, it never hurts for a girl to keep a little CASH on hand in times like these... Like a mortgage payment's worth. Or a lawyer's retainers worth... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NTL

I wish I had that kind of cash on hand. Even though I thought we were doing well before, (H did all the finances) it looks like we weren't doing as well as as far as saving as we could've been. What's in the joint savings account now is designated for car insurance and the start of DD's college fund.

As far as accounts go, we have both opened our own separate accounts and have changed where our paychecks get deposited into.

As far as attorneys go, because I don't have that kind of capital right now, I need to wait until January. I can get legal insurance at work, and it will definitely help me out big time, but in order to be eligible, I can't consult with any attorneys before I can get the insurance. It bites, b/c I know I could use some serious legal advice right now.

For now, I'm going to have to see what happens. I haven't heard from him today, although I know he came to the house for a few minutes while I was at dance class tonight (brought dog food and an air filter for the house). The babysitter said he didn't even ask about DD, who was asleep. Sheesh. If it were me, I would've walked in and watched her sleep for a few minutes.

I have drawn up a couple budget options for me and DD using a spreadsheet. When H and I meet, maybe I should just saying something like, "Well, with all the overtime you've been working, it shouldn't be too hard to help us stay afloat." I'm just so ticked off!! He acts like it's such a hardship on him to give us money. What an a$$.

Your daughter is a baby, and I do appreciate and fully support the need for a college fund...but right now, you are looking potential financial disaster and should get PROFESSIONAL LEGAL AND FINANCIAL advice. The college fund can always be worked on when the ship is settled, right now, I would not be worried about the paint chipping on the deck when you hit an iceberg. You have to take EXTREME precautions here and get correct advice TODAY...Beg, Borrow or steal...but protect you and yours...and get professional advice...we all mean well, but few (if any) of us are experts in giving you the sound advice you need.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously... I can't stomach taking that from the account. It was a gift to DD from a relative with the express purpose of starting a college account.

Well, I appreciate your discomfort in having to do this...but EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES call for EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES. Noone said this was going to be easy. A college fund for use in 18 years may be of much less benefit to your daughter if you spend the next 10 years crawling out from financial ruin and not being able to afford her the advantages that she so righfully deserves to develop in her youth.

This is my opinion....I am no financial whiz (I have been blessed by God with the opportunity and abilities to make extraordinary amounts of money, but I can tell you first hand the extreme imprtance of getting sound, financial advice.) I went through a very costly divorce recently, and I know of what I speak.

I think you got cut a raw deal....you mentioned that your WH was an A#@ for doing this to you.....I have such venemous things to say about him right now, but being that you still want him back to recover, and that this is a MB site....and that I have already served a time-out for commenting on another BS's scummbag husband..I will plead the 5th here....there is only so many "time-outs" I can serve in a month, before I get put on suspension... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I sincerely wish that there was a way that I could help you more.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello again,

I forgot to mention I am an attorney and I wonder how is anyone going to know you saw an attorney to discuss finances and divorce options before you get the insurance?

I suggest you consult with an attorney but just do not retain him. It should be a divorce attorney and you limit the representation, up front, to one or two hours. You advise him your husband has threatened divorce; and, that you hope to save your marriage but want to discuss financial and legal matters as they pertain to your situation. Tell him you will only need a hour or two of his/her time and probably no documentation. Then ask how much - CASH. You may be suprised and get a free consultation in hopes of being retained for the divorce. Also, check the yellow pages and on-line ads for "Free Consultations". Also check with your church. Your minister probably has a referral relationship with quite a few attorneys and those attorney's owe him a bunch of freebie consultations.

As far as the insurance. Just a consulation regarding divorce should not be an issue. I believe that as long as there is no ongoing legal proceeding or retained attorney you should not be precluded from obtaining the legal insurance. If you'd like, acquire the form/application or benefits brochure and post any language that concerns you so your MB legal counsel can take a look see. There are quite a few of us attorney's here.

Also, my wife and I will be at the Atlanta MB get together. I am a tax attorney and only licensed in Michigan (even though I went to Emory); but I can look at anything you need me to and give my friendly opinion. I am not a substitute for a licensed GA divorce attorney. Like Lemonman said, you really do need to see one.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - so what your saying Dr. Lem, is all SM needs is a "good" attorney. lol

p.s.s. - SM, if Dr. Lem every bothers you just remember an apple a day keeps the Doctor away...that is, if your aim is good enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again. I was thinking the same thing. I will see if I can get the brochure and post the language here as you suggested, Mr. W.

Other than that, we're supposed to meet up for lunch today to discuss finances. I'm going to play it by ear and see what happens with that. I may end up having to do some legwork this afternoon. I'll let you know how it goes!

I don't think the meeting went very well. H does not agree with what I have come up with but said he will look at it and get back to me, either tonight or Saturday. At issue is his income. He frequently works OT and also has a health insurance allowance, which he is not using for insurance (he's on my policy until 12/31). He refuses to consider that allowance as part of the income for us to figure with, even though he has considered it that way ever since he got the job. He got angry and said I just want money to play with. I countered with, I don't go out to bars. I'm not living it up with my friends. I don't even go out to eat. I told him I have to do the best I can for DD and me. He said it's a very tight budget and will be so as long as we stay married. I told him I'm not ready to talk divorce. I had told him previously that it probably wouldn't happen this year. He asked me today why I said that, and I explained legal vs. emotional divorce, that this isn't a decision that can be made lightly. He said he didn't make it lightly. I told him I hadn't come to that conclusion for myself yet.

I asked him to be respectful of my feelings in this. He said I haven't been respectful to him. When I asked him what he meant, he brought up me calling his work the other day. He said that I could jeopardize my whole existence if he loses his job, that personal life shouldn't be brought into work life. I countered with, "Well, you already bring your personal life into work. If you didn't, you wouldn't hang out with your co-workers." He said, "That's outside of work." I then said, "You brought personal life into work when you helped OW get the job there." Somebody must have said something to him.

So now what?

He's mad at YOU for bringing his personal life to work, when OW works there? Wow, the insanity of a WS knows no bounds.

Have you played around with any of the online child-support calculator's - just for kicks? I found them relatively accurate in our situation anyway. It was a helpful thing for me to know IF we DID get divorced, what could I expect? There comes a point during their affair when you just can't hang your financial hat on their good will. You have to know what you have COMING to you, so you have a point to negotiate from. If he's giving you a bunch more than CS would require, fine (although he co-owns the house, and since in all likelihood between us he'll probably be back living in it some day, so he should pay for part of the mortgage, plus for DD's sake...)
but if he's give you LESS than CS would require, wouldn't you like to know that?

More later, I'll check back - kids just got home ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, NTL. Yes, we know what he would owe for child support. He found that out when talking to the attorney. It's about half of what he's given me for the month, but with the mortgage and utilities, I could still use more b/c there is absolutely no wiggle room. At all, which means no saving up for whenever DD and I will have to move, let alone legal expenses.

On the plus side, though, he actually ate dinner with us tonight. He wasn't planning to, but I asked him if he had eaten... he hadn't, so I offered him some pasta I had just finished cooking (yum... alfredo with broccoli and mushrooms!). Would you call that a teeny, tiny baby step?

As long as he doesn't start too much cake-eating, I would call positive family time like dinner a good thing right now. It's a great opportunity for you to put those Plan A skills to demonstrated practice. Just don't expect that dinner means he wants to end the A with OW and come home... it takes a little more time I think, and a more of a wake-up call for him.

He seems so resolute about wanting the divorce/separation.

Hopefully with a little more plan A, he moves from resolute certainty to mixed feelings, a little confusion, and angst. Then you know he's moved from anger toward you to not knowing what the heck to do next.

You could read the thread from jaysmom on the PlanA/PlanB board, and also hsmomx3 (I think I got all those letters right!) - two similar situations to yours.

You just keep praying, posting, and Plan A-ing!

NTL

Thanks for the reading assignment. I found the thread from Jaysmom, but I couldn't find the other one. Is that also on the Plan A/B board?

Yep, I know one little dinner isn't much, but hey, it's something, right? On his way out, he said he'll look over the financial stuff again but it's going to be tight. I said, "when you make a choice like this, you have to live with the consequences." He said "No, you have to do what's right." I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, "I have to do what's right for DD, then for me, and then I have to do the best I can for you." What the heck should I take from that?

Hsmomx3 is on the Just Found Out board I think? If you search that user name by clicking in the orange/yellowish box at the top her posts will also show up to read.

I know my H is writing you now as well...

If you have read Dr. Dobson, or have "Love Must Be Tough" handy... read the section where he talks about the wayword spouse justifying the affair. He is trying like heck to convince himself right now that he IS doing what is best for DD by creating a "good relationship" with someone (hah.) and trying to convince himself that his R with OW will be best for him as well... This is all part of the fog. I know it's impossibly hard, but try not to take the ideas that he is presenting you with right now to heart too much. He really is all fogged in. Someday, in all likelihood, he will recant everything he ever said during this period, or at least major sections of it.

During our separations, I did not shy away from pointing out to my WH that he had taken a vow to me before God, and that God did not approve of this affair and would not bless it. But that, it turns out, all goes to what stopyourdivorce.com talks about - it's disagreeing and invalidating the way they see things, and makes them dig their heels in. Or at least that's what it seemed to feel like a lot of the time. "Convincing him" never worked. Drawing that line in the sand of what I could and could not live with, and going with the flow of our marriage being "over" was what seemed to turn the tide both times. I got to the point where I meant it too, which was scary for all of us, my kids included. But I believe it had to go there to bring us back together.

Keep your focus centered on God who loves you, who will never leave you, who you can always trust, who cares for you and will never lead you in the wrong direction. After all, when this is all said & done, you report to God and so does your husband. Ultimately I learned that this life is about me and God, my husband and his relationship with God - it's only by His design that we are together. The purpose of us being together is to bring us each closer to God and to raise Godly children. It isn't, as you can see, necessarily to always put us in a state of bliss and romance. This pain and suffering can be the Refiner's Fire that brings you closer to Him.

Hugs,
NTL

Hi SM, this is NTL's FWH.

Your situation breaks my heart and stirs up a lot of memories of my own terrible time with the aliens. Looking back, it's hard to reproduce that state of mind, but I can hear a lot of alien-me in your husband's attitude and responses.

When things were unravelling, here's the gist of my state of mind.

1. BW cannot forgive me for the relapse, so the M is doomed.
2. BW doesn't understand me and our M had too many problems to be fixable anyway.
3. OW isn't perfect, but maybe we deserve each other.
4. DDs will be OK no matter what happens.
5. BW and I both work, so there must be enough money for us to support ourselves comfortably after the D.

NTL blew away 1. and 2. with her Plan A, though the aliens worked overtime to put the worst spin on things.

In our case, 3. came apart as even the alien's advanced programming could not cover up OW's ridiculous lies. "OW isn't perfect" became "OW is unstable and sociopathic." Your H's OW may not be nuts, but she clearly has some serious character flaws that cannot be overlooked forever. If he's the father you believe him to be, this will eventually wear on him.

4. and 5. didn't fall apart until NTL bravely went ahead with Plan B - The Big D. The fact was I was not going to see my DDs very often anymore, and they would grow to be OK with that. Sure I'd see them regularly, but I'd miss all the real things that make a family - the little moments, the meals, the goofing around on a Saturday morning. The GOOD stuff. And they'd miss it too. They would be OK, they'd survive, sure - but they'd never be the same. Ouch.

As for the money, it's one thing to plan out a budget on paper and something else to live with it for a few months. Especially with so much going on, moving, setting up a house, dates, CS... give him some rope on this and he'll hang himself. If money is as tight as you say, he's deluding himself (and OW) about his (and your!) lifestyle after a D. The best antidote for a delusion is a double dose of reality.

CAUTION: I DON'T mean that you should give him free reign to move accounts, hide money, etc. - that is a major cause for concern that others have brought up, and you MUST take action to protect what is by law half yours. What I mean is, go with the flow, be cooperative, Plan A him to death - but make sure it's fair. Plan on only the legal minimum CS no matter what he promises - you and DD can't afford to be at the mercy of WH's and OW's largesse and moods and vacation plans. If that's not enough to live on, you will have to plan accordingly. Let him watch the W and DD he left in the dust, selling things off, packing boxes and renting a truck to move to an apartment across town. How that fits in with the transition to Plan B, I'm not sure... it was a Plan B/D step for us, but it seems like it could work just as well in Plan A - "Hi DH, yeah, I know you couldn't get through to us, we had to cancel the phone before the Johnson's move in to our old house. How are you doing?" Ouch.

He is stuck on self-gratification right now. Me, me, me - whether they know it or not (I didn't!) that's the WH's mantra. His money. His happiness. His DD. One way or another he's justified his decisions and behavior based on some foggy alien programming. If he's like the vast majority of WHs, if he keeps going down this road, he's about to see that his brilliant plans aren't taking him anywhere he ever wanted to be. That he misses his DD, that his W isn't acting at ALL the way he'd predicted, that OW can really be a b*tch sometimes and is kind of smelly. That's the moment where your Plan A groundwork can be a searchlight in the fog. And it can move pretty fast.

We're rooting for you and praying for you and DD - and for your H to wake up before it's too late. Be strong!

See, we didn't even discuss each other's posts, and we said the same thing! Isn't he great? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SM, One other thing...
How are you going to feel if the college $ that you left in a joint account gets spent by WH? I know you don't think he would do that, but what if he does? If it was a gift from a relative, and you feel strongly about it staying for her college NO MATTER WHAT, wouldn't it be better to start a 529 plan or something (investment vehicle) so that it is in HER name?

H is a CPA, and agrees this would be the safest thing to do. Otherwise, you risk it being just one more marital asset that can end up spent or split.

Was lost,

This is not my thread, but I appreciate the advice you gave to SM as it probably applies to my situation. I have read the stopyourdivorce.com homesite (I believe it was your wife that suggested it). I get stuck on how to act agreeable to the D, letting him see that I am not fighting him on the D, so I won't fight him in the M. And how to let him know the door is open for him to come home.

I am trying to accomodate his need for the D, show him the financial damage he is doing (gently but bluntly) and trying to leave a door open for reconciliation.

I also am not calling him to discuss the kids. I talk if he calls, but I do not initiate calls to him. The girls started Girl Scouts this week, one DD lost a tooth etc, he will have to hear all this from them and maybe he will realize what he is missing not being here every day.

I appreciated your 5 point list, it does sound pretty much like where my WH is also.

WasLost - Thanks for giving me the perspective of a FWH. I don't know much about your situation, but I really admire you and NTL for your recovery.

You both have given me lots to think about. Based on your posts, I gather that I need to not take what he says too personally and just go with the separation flow... making sure DD and I will be protected financially while leaving the door open to reconciliation with Plan A. Even though he is acting like a completely selfish jerk, some crazy part of me still loves him and still wants our family to be together. If he changes his mind and comes out of the fog, we'll see. Until then, it looks like DD and I are on our own. If he's that stupid, then it's his loss.

The only thing about Plan A... does it work if there's no affair going on? I mean, what IF he's not really in an affair with OW? Sounds crazy, but anything is possible. What if he really does just believe we have grown apart? I've got to have all my bases covered, you know.

What do you think would be best for DD's money? Should I go to another bank and open a new account in her name with me as the co-signer until I can research 529s, or would it be OK to just make the current account a joint signature account? And what do I do about the secret account? I tried calling an attorney yesterday but he hasn't returned my call yet.

Thanks again!