I wish I could tell your WH what I got to tell my WH at 3:30am when he called from the Bahamas and OW was going nuts...
"If you want to see the real character of a person, break up with them."

You are handling it with real class, OW would be a psycho stalking basket case. Your H will figure it out eventually.

Your mom sounds like a real gem.

MSA

Any way we can arrange this test for your WH??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ROTF!!!! That's pretty bad.

Funny you say I'm handling it with class. WH sure doesn't think so. Yes, I've had my moments. Driving by her apartment for a few weeks. Driving by his, too. I haven't done that since I filed two months ago. I've said some dumb things on the phone when I've caught him at OW's. Said some dumb things in person.

But, I know it could be much worse. I guess I have done OK for the most part. I guess I'm trying to show him what he's losing. I'm just wondering how this recent development with OW and work will affect their relationship.

Oh, I think the recent development at work should send the message to them that their behavior really ISN'T condoned by the bosses. I don't care what they say, I think that the boss doesn't like them playing footsie, realizes the legal liability of it, wants it to stop - they just don't feel they can completely break their word to OW about the job she was expecting. This is the "safe" type of thing employers do to try to undermine these situations - see my post today to Alison about some of the things in my workplace...

I think you absolutely are handling it with class. He might not agree at the moment, but you have put DD's interests first, you have researched & learned, and posted, and read, and also gone on with your own life (friends, parties, dancing, meeting new people @ the MB gathering) despite the complete turmoil you have been thrust into by WH.

I love your byline thing about OW... very funny fog-speak.

MSA

OMG, I'm steaming right now. The ILs emailed me some photos of DD at Christmas and their new puppy. Cute photos of course, but I'm ticked about what I see in one of them... a stocking from OW!!

She always takes the cheap red ones and writes people's names on them with a glitter pen with a little line drawing of a snowman, reindeer, etc. And there it is, plain as day. After I told WH that DD didn't need anything from OW. Dang it, now I wish I had kept the one she did for WH and me the first year we knew her. I had stuck in the box of Christmas stuff I gave to WH.

Is there anything I can do, besides tell my lawyer? This could be seen as proof of her contact with DD, which has been forbidden by the temporary order, which was signed before Christmas. Makes me sick. I'm wondering now which of the presents WH brought over Christmas day were from OW. I thought it was odd that he brought over a couple books. Figured he'd want to keep stuff like that at his place.

I know I should probably keep this under my hat, but dang it, I'm mad about it. Any advice would be appreciated!

Ugh. It's like after OW & WH were broken up and I found out that she had paid for DD's $100 birthday present from WH... ick.

I don't know if it proves contact or not - she could make it and give it to WH almost as a "present" to him...?

I don't know what to say, I would probably not have been able to keep my lips sealed about it to my WH at the time if I had known...

What a thoughtful "friend" she is to him! Grrrrr...

Well, I didn't keep my mouth shut. When he brought DD back, I casually asked him if he ever found out what OW got DD for Christmas, b/c he had said before that he didn't know b/c he hadn't seen her.

He said she didn't get her anything. I calmly asked what was in the stocking she made. His eyes almost bugged out of his head and he said, what? I said his parents had emailed me a photo and I saw the stocking. He fessed up that she had given DD some pewter Pooh figurines that she had had for a long time. I said, oh, OK. Nothing that would sound bad on a tape.

To me and probably to my lawyer, it is proof of contact. According to the temporary order, OW isn't to have anything to do with DD at all. At the very least, it proves to me that WH lied to me about it.

I think he tried to bait me into a fight over religion today. I was raised Lutheran, he was raised Southern Baptist. DD and I have been going to the Lutheran church, and we will be joining soon. When he came today, I said we needed to talk about baptism, b/c I want to have her baptized at church and thought he would like to be involved.

Even though he hasn't been to church in years, he was like, "Well, Southern Baptists usually wait until they are old enough to understand why they're doing it, but I guess I don't have a problem with it." He knows how strongly I feel about this, he hasn't been going to church, we had discussed raising her Lutheran before we had her... but I was good. Didn't say anything, other than that the new member class starts next weekend.

Oh, and DD's birthday is at the end of the month. I told WH I'm throwing a party and would invite him and all the family. He said his parents were throwing her a birthday party. I was irritated, b/c I'm being the bigger person here, trying to include him in stuff, and here he is, not returning the favor. Then he has the nerve to say he wants to have her for a couple hours longer to accommodate the party!

(((Sadmommy)))

That is an interesting approach to avoiding LB's, everyone should assume there is a tape recorder present! Are you also taping the conversations?? I would, your WH may just wait until he can get a rise out of you, but you would have oodles of tapes showing you to be calm and reasonable.

Just a peice of personal experience that might help you. My YD was 3yo when H and I separated the first time. She doesn't remember his first GF at all. She does remember OM and 2nd GF, but they were both around until she was 5ish.

I am not saying back down on what the courts have said - stick to your guns on that. But your DD won't remember the troll woman anyway.

Hi, Jean. I didn't even think of taping things myself for that reason, to have tape of me being calm and rational. Perhaps tape also of DD screaming and not wanting to leave with WH may be useful. I will discuss this with my attorney. I think it may be illegal to tape w/out the other person knowing. Or at least I don't think it would stand up in court. Would probably be smart, though.

Thanks for the idea!

Well, DD and I are home today. Her babysitter's DD is really sick. So I'm trying to get some stuff done for work... easier said than done when you've got a busy baby! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just put her down for a nap.

Hmm... I heard that OW has a job interview out of state coming up, that it's WH's idea for her to get away for a while. My source says WH is feeling the heat, but also that OW thinks I'm over a barrel.

Also, when WH called me back today about our babysitting dilemma, he showed up on my caller id as "WH Cell," where he usually shows up as "withheld." I think he may have gotten off OW's cell phone account? Don't think it's too positive, though... I hear she's been driving his vehicle b/c her brakes are bad. Great.

Weird. I feel like strange things are afoot here...

Hang in there - did you read the American Values article here about most couples that stay married somehow being happy five years later?

WHAT??? Huh??? You??? over a barrel??? about what????

I'm a project manager and computer analyst by trade, so I need to plan everything out. I create scenarios and then I solve them so that I will know how to react in any situation. If you were playing baseball, it'd be like: men on 2nd & 3rd, 1 out, the ball is hit to you, what do you do?

So, let's think up some scenarios and you should plan out how you want to respond. Otherwise, you'll be responding off the cuff and you may get mad at yourself later for being a) too nice, b) too mean, c) too interested etc.

First of all, before you get to the scenarios, you have to seriously decide WHAT DO I WANT? The fact of the matter is you may not want him back. If you do want him back, can you forgive him and let it go. What would he have to do to earn your forgiveness. All of that answers the question of WHAT DO I WANT?

Now that you know what you want. Then you can start answering how you would respond in these scenarios. Even if you want him back (and I'm trying really hard not to judge), you will want to have the bas*ard jump through some serious hoops and experience some serious pain and loss before accepting him back (OK, you may not want that, but I think it'd be good for him). If you accept him back right away, then he doesn't get to experience loss, like you have, and he really won't have an appreciation for what he's done.

Now, all of this might be premature. But, you want to be prepared.

Other things that you could want:
B) Just give me the divorce and have a nice life.
C) I want the divorce and make you really feel the pain.
D) I can't forgive you, give me the divorce, but at least we can be friendly for DD's sake.

Scenario 1) He starts coming around and hanging out more...what do you do?

Scenario 2) He comes by, says he wants to talk...what do you do?

Scenario 3) He starts talking about his regret and remorse....what do you do?

Scenario 4) He says OW is moving away...what do you say?

Scenario 5) He says OW is moving away and they won't be seeing each other again...what do you say or do?

Scenario 6) He says he broke it off with OW, she is upset and is moving away....what do you say? Call him a lying piece of sh*t and get out of my house. Ooops. sorry.

Scenario 7) He says he misses you...what do you say?

Scenario 8) He says he wants his family back...what do you say?

Scenario 9) He says 'I really screwed up'..."Yes, you did." end of conversation. That will frustrate him. It will make him EXPRESS more.

Scenario 10) He says it's not right that DD will grow up without a dad...."No, it's not". End of conversation. Again, short answers will frustrate him. It will make him open up more.

Scenario 11) He says his lease is up in May..."Do you like that place?"

Scenario 12) He says he wants to move home...What do you say?

Scenario 13) He walks in and announces that he has moved home...what do you do? You have changed the locks right?

The idea here is...be prepared.

> Know what you want.
> Identify the path to get there; and even if it is to take him back it is probably not best to accept him with open arms. He needs to go through a process of repentence.

Regards

Believer, yes I had read that article in the beginning. Printed it out. Tried to talk to WH about it, and his response was, "I don't get my information from studies. I get my information from real people I talk to." The real people he'd been talking to? A guy he used to work with who'd been married three times, a guy who stayed in an unhappy marriage for the kids' sake and just got remarried after a few years being divorced, and of course OW.

MSA... she thinks I'm "over a barrel" b/c of the insurance stuff. I had take WH off my policy for the year starting 1/06, but I did it back before I filed. Changing the policy post-filing could be seen as a violation of the DRO. But it was done in October, and WH knew about it.

Hi, HardHead. Thanks for spelling out all those scenarios for me. I've been trying to go over this stuff in my mind from the very beginning now, trying to figure out what I would do. But I have a hard time focusing on it. It's great to have some typed out. I'll get back to this a little later when I'm not at work. You've given me a lot of good stuff to think about here.

On the one hand, how could I possibly want him back, after everything he's put me through. If there's any karma in this world, he should be lonely and really suffer for what he's done to me and DD, and indirectly our family/friends.

On the other hand, we have that history, we have had good times, and we have DD.

I doubt he will ever try to come back. He's too proud for that. But if he did, there would be some serious he11 to pay for repentance. Who knows, maybe if he did and he really wanted to work on things, we'd have a marriage better than ever before. I just don't know. I continue to pray to God for guidance on this whole mess.

Oh, about the insurance - ha. No way.

Yep, but he's claiming he didn't know. The letter my attorney sent basically said we hope he tells the truth, that he's been enjoying free insurance AND the insurance allowance, and he's lucky that the family he left for another woman has coverage that he's not paying.

On a side note, he had DD all afternoon yesterday since her babysitter's kid is sick with the flu. Brought her back to me at 5:30 so I could nurse her, then went to take her for his usual 6-8. She did NOT want to go with him last night. Everytime he'd go to take her from me, she would start screaming and clutch me even tighter. The whole time we were standing there talking, she was clinging to me like a little bushbaby, resting her head on my shoulder. When he was holding her and leaned toward me so she could kiss me goodbye, she lunged for me screaming. I was heartbroken seeing my poor baby do that. He ended up bringing her back half an hour early. Guess he felt bad, too.

Mom said I should tell him he can put an end to this at anytime. He seemed sad last night, but maybe I'm reading too much into it b/c of what I know about OW's job situation.

What does it mean to "own the anger?" A friend was talking to me last night and said I needed to do that, to recognize that I'm angry and accept it, that I have every right to be angry. She said I act like a victim sometimes.

I thought I had been doing that, but looking back, maybe she's right. I thought I've done a good job getting that anger out, venting by writing, but she suggested taking a tennis racket to my bed. What do you think about "owning the anger?"

I also saw my counselor yesterday, and we discussed scenarios like Hardhead posted here the other day. She said that I needed to be at place where I knew what I wanted... would I want him back b/c it's comfortable, or b/c I want HIM?

She said that based on what I've told her, he has patterns of really extreme ups/downs. Manic periods of spending lots of money, then really low points. She said this manic period of his will end, probably pretty soon based on what the mystery man says, and when it does, he could be really pathetic... But I wouldn't want him to come back to me just because OW's out of the picture... I wouldn't want to feel like he's settled for me.

To be honest, I don't see it happening. He's too proud to come crawling back. He's never said he's sorry to me about anything bad he's done. Ever. When we were dating, he cheated on me with a classmate after I went off the college. He blamed it on her, said she threatened to tell me they did it anyway, so he gave in. Always the victim.

At this point, I don't think I could ever take him back, but to be honest, if he came crawling back tonight, I don't think I'd be strong enough to say no...