Ok FR,
How do you feel about her "waiting" for you? Do you see something in her that makes you think she could be that special one for you when you are fully recovered? I'm asking because I might be going through this myself and perhaps I need to rethink...
Is it safe for you (and her) to continue your recovery while in a relationship?
What keeps you from walking away, if you DO agree with me? I think of it as being fair to both of us, that he's not ready and I am and I have needs that aren't getting met, although I think that someday he MAY be able to meet them. But I don't want to hold on to what I think and be sorry I did...I mean, what do you see of feel that makes you think that your feelings for her WILL get there?

For a long time I felt awful about it - and told her (repeatedly) that I didn't like it. She, very politely told me that this is her complete and total choice, that she knows exactly what she's doing and will continue to wait until we either give it a "try" or she moves on. So, I do not feel bad about it anymore.


Yes, I see many qualities in her that makes me think she could be the one. That is the point of my frustration.


We're not "in" a relationship. We don't date, her kids and my DD13 play together all the time, they occasionally come over for a cook-out, a swim, a movie etc. and that's it. We do talk about "life" in general, and I guess my answers/outlook and perhaps the way I love my DD's has made me attractive to her.


Well - walking away from what? I am not allowing us to move past "friendship". She is fine with that.



Nothing. I really have no "feeling" about that one way or the other - because of my lack of desire to be with anyone right now. You see - it's not personal or only with her, I'm not dating anyone. I don't desire to right now. Perhaps that's because I have to be available for DD13 while she deals with her Mom's out-of-control life, perhaps I'm not recovered enough yet, perhaps I'm "just not into her". I don't know!

FR

Oh brother, this sounds like a pretty big red flag, bud. Who in their right mind would want to be involved with someone who tells them they have no feelings for them??

Why does she have such a strong desire to "wait it out"? Can she find no other suitable prospects? What does she mean "wait until you are ready"? Dos she not realize that when you are ready, you may still not have any feelings for her?

We had this discussion before about people "waiting out" until their BF or GF "recovers" - I believe the concensus was that one can never know a priori what the "recovered" person will be like - it is nothing like getting a flat tire fixed. The "recovered" person may end up being nothing like what their BF/GF expects them to be - which is why dating someone who is not ready for a relationship is such a tricky proposition.

I dunno, FR, if you have no feelings for this woman, I would move on. I doubt that her hanging on to you will lead you to fall for her someday - if anything, I think it would have the opposite effect, as by telling you that she will wait for you even if you feel nothing for her, she is becoming way too available to you, and that seems like an imbalance in the relationship dynamic.

AGG

I had the same talk early on with the one lady I was "just buds" with for a long time, hoping to eventually feel something.

In the end, after we did date and broke up, I got a whole speech about how she waited for me so patiently all those months, hoping against hope that I would "warm up".. And there I thought she was happy just being buds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

I would suspect that your woman friend is probably being dishonest either with you or with herself, neither of which is good in the longrun.

AGG

This is still a very frustrating question for me, despite the fact that my hopes for any future relationship are quite dead at the moment and I have given up on the dating process. It is the lack of a "spark" which seems to have torpedoed the possibility of exploring a relationship with the woman whom, alas, I cannot help but be interested in.

I simply don't know what to think about the whole "chemistry" thing. I'll say this, though: I agree with CheckUrHeart when he said "The qualities that make someone a great boyfriend or girlfriend are not necessarily the ones that will make him/her a great husband or wife. Decide what you require from your spouse and seek those qualities in those you date."

The problem is, I'm not sure that I agree with Check when he went on to say "This kind of relegates 'chemistry' to the back seat doesn't it?"

I consider the "fireworks" aspect of a relationship to be essential. And unlike Check's intimation, I have not found that (as best I can recall) my experience of those feelings (love and infatuation) in my forties is any different from what it was in my teens or twenties. Of course, I'm not sure I really understand what Check is trying to say. It may be that he is just trying to say that it is easier to put those feelings in a more appropriate perspective as we mature, which I would tend to agree with - although in my own case, I'm afraid that I never let my feelings lure me any place my head didn't think was right (even as a teenager), so perhaps I just never experienced the type of feelings (or "mad love") which Check attributes to youth.

Be that as it may, the real question is whether it is possible for the head to lead the way for the heart. And I don't pretend to know the answer to that.

In North America at least, we live in a culture which glorifies the rush, the "spark," the "WOW factor." I doubt that very many marriages here begin without those sorts of feelings being present in some way - and in those situations where that isn't the case, I imagine that it's usually because of a need to escape intolerable circumstances. What this means is that I'm not convinced that the Harleys' principles have been well-tested in scenarios where generally healthy adults who are not attracted to each other in "that" way become partners. In other words, the Harleys are showing the way to restore feelings which previously existed, rather than to generate feelings from scratch.

Certainly there are ways to generate chemistry where none previously existed, as for example when a couple go through a crisis together. That, however, is not something which can be orchestrated. And as with other forms of "spark" generation, the feelings are derived from factors which are largely irrelevant to whether or not a partnership "makes sense."

For after all, I suspect that much of the "WOW factor" is derived from imagination (along with a poorly-tuned instinctual response). Idealization is involved, which means that we do not perceive the object of our infatuation realistically. The better we come to know someone, the more difficult it is to idealize them, which suggests that longtime friends are poor candidates for generating a "spark" - unless changed circumstances (or behavior) forces them into a different role where long-hidden aspects of their character are revealed, or unless a period of emotional neediness offers them an otherwise nonexistent foothold.

In general, I suspect that what prevents a spark from being generated has much to do with the filters we ourselves bring to bear. As you suggest, Fishracer, "Perhaps it's because I am not allowing her to meet those EN's!" But if the barriers we raise are outside our conscious control, does it really matter? It may be that no amount of deposits into our love bank will ever light the fire, because the particular barriers involved in that relationship have no gate and no key. At least with a marriage that once was good, we know that there is a gate and a key, because there once was a gate and a key.

My own experience is too limited for me to be confident making extrapolations. I have plenty of experience with infatuation, but those feelings have been (and are) mild when I know that we are not "right" for each other. Being the analytical sort, I have had little difficulty discerning why we are not "right" for each other. In the few (OK, two) cases where my feelings have grown out of control, it was only after the conscious realization that we were right for each other. This suggests that for me the heart really does follow the head - except that the mild "crush" was already present before the rational realization. In other words, the "spark" preceded the realization, while the "flame" followed it.

I have never been in a situation where I met a woman whom I believed was "right" for me, but where I felt no spark. In all honesty, I cannot imagine such a situation - which does not mean that it couldn't happen! But if that's where you are, then I'm not sure that anything in my experience, or in my tentative thinking, has much relevance to you.

"In North America at least, we live in a culture which glorifies the rush, the "spark," the "WOW factor.""

Oh, this is so true, GDP (still think that's the most clever handle here)! Now, everyone try to correlate this with something: We also have a divorce rate several times higher than any other country in the world. Shouldn't this tell us that perhaps we aren't being terribly realistic in our approach?

AGG: This woman and I have talked about my sitch and hers at length. She divorced a couple of years before me and says she knows what I'm going through because she went through the same thing. She says her feelings about dating "came back around" over time and she feels that mine will as well. She does not take it personally - that I do not have "those type" feelings for her - at this time.


After her divorce, and when she became desirous of dating again; she dated 4-5 gents, none of whom appealed to her for various reasons. Her claim is that I am "different" than those she's dated. As to "waiting until I am ready"; yes, she fully understands that I still may not have feelings for her.


I may have painted an unrealistic picture of our relationship as it stands. She is not "hanging on" in the traditional sense (where she calls daily, drives by my home to see if anyone is there, shows up for booty calls, etc.) We only see each other when our kids visit, we talk on the phone maybe 2-3 times @ week and I feel no pressure from her other than what I may put on myself. Occasionally she asks how I'm doing on the personal front to which I reply "the same". There are no tears, no arguments and/or acts of persuasion. It is very respectful.


You might very well turn out to be correct - but I don't see it that way. I've experienced the type relationships you're describing here, and our situation is much, much different.
____________________________________________________________


GDP: I agree. Isn't this the actual cause of most affairs?


What if those barriers we raise can be/are "inside our conscious control" however due to the often unrealistic expectation of the infamous "WOW-factor" we've shoved those expectations outside?


GDP: For this statement to be analagous to my sitch; in either of your two cases - were you recently out of a very long marriage/affair/divorce sitch? In other words - were you otherwise "plenty-healthy" on the emotional front?


I appreciate your honesty. And because this is all completely new for me - is the very reason I am asking these questions.



Check: Thank you! That is exactly what I'm talking about! Because (just perhaps) the WOW-factor will happen after the determination of a healthy foundation in this relationship.

Or - perhaps not!

FR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Fish, I've been thinking,

For some reason, I feeling like your defending this situation, or maybe trying to find reasons why not to......

Is there somehting else factoring in here? Like, do you have timeline going on in your mind that says you need to be divorced a certain amount of time before....?

I think we have talked about this before, and you wanted that solid foundation first, and then the rest would follow. So, to me, I'm thinking, is this person right here in front of you and your denying it for whatever reason??

"Her claim is that I am "different" than those she's dated"
You do have some good qualities there FR! [I'm not being overly friendly, just honest] So, to her, your worth the wait.

Maybe I'm off here, but that was my thought of the day.

K!

Hi K:


No, I've never considered that I have a timeline and do not feel that way now. However you brought other thoughts to mind. 5-6 months ago; I was probably more receptive to allowing myself to "open-up" to this person and/or anyone else that I might be attracted to. Then, DD13 began having her delayed reaction to D and to her Mom's situation. DD13 now looks to me for her full and total support and I'm thinking that I want to be sure that I'm here for her (100% w/o distractions) if that makes sense! Interesting that your thread caused this to become so clear to me. As I'm pursuing custody, I am kind of "focused" on DD's needs and everything else is secondary. Perhaps this is why I am not allowing anyone else to enther the picture in a serious manner!

I will give this further consideration. Thank you for the inspiration K. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

In the first case, yes, I was healthy, albeit young and naive. She was my first love (not my first crush) - and later my wife. At the time I "fell in love" with her, we had been good friends for about a year, in a relationship where we had both established earlier on that we weren't interested in "dating." When I told her that I loved her, she wasn't exactly happy about it, but she didn't cut off our friendship either. Eventually she came around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In the second case, I was just a few months post-divorce. I was definitely not looking and I was not "plenty-healthy" - although I was probably ahead of where many would be so soon after divorce, since there had been no communication with my ex-wife for well over two years. Honestly, if the woman I "fell in love" with had been interested in dating, I don't know what I would have done, since I certainly didn't feel ready to head that direction myself at the time. And even as I was experiencing the flood of emotions, I recognized that I was in part responding to aspects of this new woman's personality and character which were reminiscent of my ex-wife. It took me another six months before I felt that I could assess the relationship potential with an adequate degree of objectivity.

What is particularly interesting to me, though, is that in the time I had known this woman, it had not even occurred to me to think of her in "that way." It was only when I got shaken up by a series of odd coincidences involving her that I started to ask myself whether God might be trying to do something - at which point I "did the math" and realized that if I had been looking for someone, this woman was exactly the sort of someone I would - and should - have been looking for. It was only after I had done the analysis - which I initiated in the full expectation of a very different result (because in some very significant ways this new woman was not like my ex-wife, and I have always believed that my ex-wife and I were very well matched) - that my heart suddenly went into over-drive.

If I hadn't had an extemely clear sense of who I am and what I want, I'm not sure that that would have happened.

I have another friend who is female, very attractive, reasonably close in age, with a terrific spirit and heart and personality. I've had a bit of a crush on her for a while, and for a while I wondered why I had no interest in her in "that way." Superficially, it seemed like it would make a lot of sense for me to pursue her - and indeed, I might very well have explored that possibility if it weren't for the fact that she was not available. (When I got to know her, she was involved in a relationship with a male friend of mine, which didn't work out in large part because both of them were recently divorced. She then wisely decided that she should stay out of romantic relationships for a while.) I have since come to understand why we would not be a good match, which I imagine that I recognized much earlier at an intuitive level. (Over the years, I have come to realize that my intuition is remarkably reliable - a difficult thing for a rational creature such as myself to admit.)

Even more recently, I met someone while out of town - a woman with whom I had quite a few conversations over the course of a week. I'm not sure it would be fair to say that I developed a crush on her; if I did it was a very mild one. But I think I got to know her well enough to conclude that there was a very good chance that if she were not already married, she would be someone I would do well to pursue. Honestly, I don't know what my heart would have done if it wasn't very much aware that she was married, but I have little doubt that if the circumstances were different, I could proceed to fall deeply in love with her.

If there's a point to all this, I think it's that I believe my intuition is now operating in the relationship arena, whereas in the first months after my divorce it took a serious jolt to get me to even contemplate the possibility of another relationship. I got a rather painful kick-start, and even then it took me more months before I began to feel that I could trust my thoughts and feelings on that front.

This hits a bit too close to home for me to leave unanswered.

The woman I'm interested in has no feelings for me. I am not exactly "waiting her out," especially since I no longer feel any hope that she will ever change in that regard; but I have also given up on the idea of going out and trying to find someone else. From my perspective, she has set a standard, and I am not willing to settle for less, even if that means settling for nothing. After some preliminary exploration, I have concluded that traditional methodologies for finding someone who can meet that standard appear to require a prohibitive investment with a negligible chance for any positive result.

If a miracle happens, great. But in its absence I have other things to focus on in my life, and the only thing which makes sense to me to do on the relationship front is to wait and see what - if anything - happens.

Fishracer elaborated on his situation by saying:
I can appreciate this, since I likewise take complete responsibility for my choice, and I also know exactly what I'm doing. Meeting someone else and moving on is not outside the bounds of reason, but at least in my case it is outside the bounds of expectation and is very nearly outside the bounds of imagination.

Hey FR~

Well, I don't think I can take credit for any inspiration, maybe I just helped trigger a thought. But, I think I owed you one! So, in that case, there you go!

From what I know about you, I don't feel that you would let anyone become a distraction where your DD's are concerned. But, you know yourself far better and if you feel this is the case, then you will need to go with that.

Maybe for now though, you have a little more clarity concerning your lady friend, and now know that its just that your not into her!

K!

GDP, I understand your situation with your female friend, and your decision to not want to settle for anything less than her. I happen to believe that there are other women out there for you who are every bit as good as she is (or better), except that they will also happen to have feelings for you, but I also understand perfectly the mindset of not wanting to waste time or energy on trying to find those women. Believe me, I understand, which is why I haven't dated in many many months.

Regarding Fishracer, I am not convinced that his female friend is looking at it the same way. I get some very strong vibes that she does in fact want FR to warm up to her and to start dating her. And that is very different that being friends with someone who you know will (most likely) never become anything more - I think she very much hopes that it will become more.

I base my views on these statements:

I bolded the parts I view as being very telling of how she views things. She feels that she is a few months ahead of FR in his "recovery", and that once that time passes, he will naturally warm up and develop feelings for her, like she did for him. To me, at least, that is very evident, and very misguided.

Now, I completely agree that FR owes her nothing, since he is not misleading her in any way, so I see nothing wrong with them spending time together as friends. But I strongly believe that she is very eager for FR to develop feelings for her, and frankly, I am very skeptical that he will, because if it hasn't happened already, it probably won't. So I am just saying that while she may say that she is fine with this, she definitely is hoping for more. IMO.

AGG

Gnome: Thanks for your insightful history. My relationship-life seems quite boring compared to yours. I think I prefer it that way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


K: Yes, I'm becoming more & more inclined to agree w/you. As always - thank you.


AGG: I agree.

So the general concensus seems to be: That I (FR) might be experiencing a lack of "those-type" feelings for this woman, partly because I'm not emotionally ready for any relationship, however mostly because I'm just not into her and will most probably never be, regardless of the outward signs of compatibility. Therefore, as Karona suggested in another thread; our (my) heart must also be a big part of the mix for a relationship to have a chance of succeeding.

Which leads to another question(s): If/when my "heart" decides to open to someone - is that then the proper time to consider our "compatibility" in an overall sense? And if so - how does one still maintain a somewhat logical view on the chance of success for this potential relationship? You see - I do not want to "over-analyze" a potential relationship, however at the same time - I do not want to repeat my earlier mistakes. So where is the magic answer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

FR

Magic answers!!! Yes, yes!!! Somebody give us the magic answers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

42

TBG~~~

42 what????
Are those the numbers to play??

And Fish,
I re-read what you quoted me on above, and I think I didn't type it right.
What I tried to say, but think I failed was....

You have more clarity concerning her, and that it isn't so much that your not into her, as much as there are other issues going on that are keeping you from going there.

I'm sorry about that!
K!

OK - she should be 42 years old - what else? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry... just an obscure humorous reference that only geeks like me tend to get.

42 is the magic answer.

I'm 42! Is someone saying that's the ieal age??
WOW, and all along I thought if I could just be 32 again!!!