[quote
kd, I pray that someday he will come out of his fog not only understand, but also internalize just how misplaced his attentions were...how much more fulfilled he would have been if he'd chosen instead to focus on you...maybe at that point you'll want to hear his incredulous recollections of how nuts he was or maybe not, that choice should always be yours...

Mrs. Wondering [/quote]




Thank you for the encouragement and advice Mrs Wondering.
Lets hope god hears you.
From your lip's to god's ear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To most, I think it is important to know the details so the affair can be put into perspective. Not knowing is more painful than knowing, because it causes one to believe the worst. Addititonally, this is information about the BS's life that has been wrongfully withheld from them.

I had no peace until I was told each and every scrap; what caused me the greatest pain was not the truth, but the wrongful withholding of the truth.

The most important thing, though, is the willingness of the WS to tell the BS everything so that there are not secrets between the WS and the OP.

OK, I agree with the poll and voted #4, however, as the BS, that really doesn't matter when the WW feels she shouldn't have to give any information. How do you, without pushing, LBing, or using truth-serum drugs, convince the WW that this will help both of us by giving details for what I need to know?

Shaden,

Read this link The Need to Know paying special attention to and making a copy of Joseph's Letter. Either read it to your W or give the letter to her. To me, in all my years on the different forums, this letter expalins the very best WHY we need to know.

I have gotten to the point where I don't want to hear much anymore. Some of the things, especially about SF, that have been said in the spirit of honesty have been very disturbing. Frankly, a WS in the early stages of recovery doesn't have his head screwed on very straight and is likely to color the truth for God only knows what reasons. To protect the spouse. To continue rationalizing having had an affair. I have found my WS guilty of doing both--making the OW out to be a monster to rationalize coming back to me, while making the OW out to be the hottest thing in bed, also to rationalize having had the affair in the first place.

What I am trying to say is that a FWS during recovery is often terribly mixed up and has their own subjective brand of honesty, i.e., they may truly be telling you what they believe to be the reality of the siutation, but their confusing take on things might unnecessarily hurt you.

Further down the line, when my WH has more perspective, I would like to understand what it was this woman really did offer him.

I was given a copy of Joseph's letter and made a couple of modifications to it before sending it to my W. It just made her angry when she read it. When we talked about it later, she said if I was going to push it and insist on answers, she would be leaving. She doesn't like ultimatums.

At some point, this "ultimatum" of my boundaries will have to happen, but I think it's just too soon. She is still in a fog, I guess, even though she has said she wants to stay in the marriage.

It didn't help that our MC, although excellent with everything else so far, answered for her that she was right that she is not obligated to tell me. She did admit that it is a trust issue and that I should risk asking... but my W does not have to tell. At some point I guess it comes to my decision to leave if she doesn't get past this.

Shaden

Shaden, you have to decide your own boundaries, but this is a very important issue of trust. If your W has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy, you will never ever recover because you won't be able to trust her. This is information about your own life to which you have a right.

For me, I wasn't willing to waste my time unless my spouse did tell me the full truth. That was my boundary. Now, it took a few months to convince him of this, but I think if he had not been forthcoming, I would not have stayed with someone I could not possibly trust. That would have been a deal breaker for me.

p.s. Shaden, I would also suggest finding a qualified, experienced counselor. Many are useless as they are not pro-marriage and some are actually hostile to men. A MC that tells you that you don't need to know the truth about your own life is a moron and knows very little about recovery from infidelity.

Melodylane...

I agree entirely about the boundaries... the hard point is knowing when it is time to enforce it. I do believe she will eventually come around. She has told me a few things during good conversations, but when she is feeling pushed, she gets defensive. She did make a compromise and agree for me to write down the questions but did not guarantee of answering them. I haven't yet... I want to wait a little so that she is not on the defensive. At some point, though... 1 month, 2 months, 6 months... I don't know when, I will have to insist or it is a deal breaker. I won't live in a marriage without honesty. I just don't know how much time to give for this.

As for the MC... she wasn't completely against telling me... she just felt that I could not insist... that my W has a right to refuse... which she does, and then I have a right to tell her to leave.

The MC knows my W's need to not be pushed and probably is just warning me to take it easy. She did say to my W that for trust issues, it is important to talk about it. The main message to me was that in the past I have been afraid to share when I've been mad about something for fear of hurting or losing my W. She told me I have to start risking by asking the questions, which I am doing slowly. It has been tough as my W is not used to it and is fighting back against this change. Otherwise, I am quite happy with the MC. I haven't had a session since on my own to discuss it further with her. The next one probably should be separate.

She also reminded me, when I asked about this topic, that both of us are hurting, not just me. She was trying to remind me that if I want the marriage to succeed, I have to let both of us heal and move through this process. I cannot just blindly insist upon my own needs being met or I lose her.

Shaden

Shaden, does the MC understand that without complete honesty that your marriage will never recover? You say that she is not "completely against" but it doesn't seem as though she understands how critical radical honesty is to recovery of your marriage. For her to reinforce your W's continued deceitful approach to her adultery tells me there is something very wrong here. Because not telling you is only to continue the deceit. Adding more deceit to the insult of adultery is causing damage to your marriage and further eroding trust.

This is why I am dubious about your MC and would suggest getting a qualified, experienced MC who specializes in adultery, such as Steve Harley. He won't waste your time or give you bad advice. He understands what it takes to recover and will not reinforce deceitful, destructive behavior frm your WS as your current MC does.