WW is still in contact with OM, seeking advice on how to turn up the heat on the affair.


Small background:

Dday 7 weeks ago
Exposure was 4 weeks ago
Affair ended and NC agreement (albeit verbal by her to me) 2 weeks ago
MC started 1 week ago 2 sessions so far
She admitted to contact (via telephone) last weekend.
Still in contact this week.


Any suggestions on how to further turn up the heat. We have made small steps together (ie talking alot, spending time together, MC etc, Plan a'ing hard).

She is out late tonight and I highly suspect the worst.

Some of my options:

- Talk to MC and follow her recommendations
- Expose further to previously exposed friends / family and add some further exposure to other friends and OM parents (didn't know at the time of first exposure)
- Do nothing, continue monitoring
- Talk to MIL/FIL/BIL, haven't talk to them since the exposure. I think they would be somewhat receptive to my situation and I sure my WW has not been completely forthcoming with them.
- Follow a brilliant suggestion by one of you fine folks here at MB.

Could use the advice as soon as possible.

Cheers

Hey B.B.

I had just turned in for the night and my wife came and got me after she saw you'd posted. I'd just told her how I thought you must think I live here because I always seem to be on top of your thread the minute you post. Really this is my first post today.

For the millionth time now I am sorry for your situation. My wife's OM lived 750 miles away. If he'd have been down the road I'm sure I would have experienced nights like yours.

Obviously your WW actions are speaking louder than her words and you are getting treated like a doormat. Has she been pacifying you with a completely bogus effort or do you really believe she is/was trying and merely unable to overcome the withdrawal? Not that it matters much.

There is a book I've seen mentioned here called "Tough Love" by Dobson. It may be more along the lines of the stronger advice you need. A little more ummph to it.

If it were me I would strongly consider packing up her things and placing them on the front porch, however, that is easy for me to say. I put up with continued contact for weeks while I Plan A'ed. I merely comitted to Plan A regardless of the her actions and waited it out. But I have a 5 year old daughter to think about and again her continued contact was just phone, text and email - NOT CONTINUED PA.

Yes, do some more exposing, exposing, and exposing. Worry about your other options tomorrow. Call Steve Harley if you can. I hope some other more experienced poster can advise you more than this as it is beyond my personal experience.

Mr. Wondering

What do other posters think of BB imposing the 180 plan instead of going to Plan B. BB has only been in Plan A a couple of weeks and needs to bank some more love units prior to Plan B. Plus Plan B needs to be addressed on BB terms not as a response to WW actions. IMO, Plan B remains an option further down the road; but, for now he should shift focus completely on himself, stop the ILY, stop arguing and fighting and "leap his partner" with a good tough 180 plan.

The 180 plan was just posted on Gramn's thread this Monday or Tuesday. Link to it and read it. Do a search of the 180 plan also to find more threads that discuss it.

Your wife knows she making a huge mistake, doesn't she? What has transpired in the last week or so?

Mr. Wondering

Almost 2 am here. Going back to bed. Hope I helped. I'll say a prayer for you and check back in if I wake up (which I probably will if you post another 5am emergency).

Mr. Wondering

Well, heck.

YOu have a cake eater on your hands. She is stalling for time. Every person and situation is different. I can't tell you what to do, only suggest.

If the marriage is worth saving, then you obviously have to do something other than file for divorce. That is your call as it should be. How long you wait to do something depends on your tolerance for pain.

Sooner may be better than later or later may be better than sooner. It just depends. But again, that depends on your tolerance for pain.

I suggest:

Honey, I love you. You in the middle of an infatuation FOG and you have no control. You call it love but you won't at some period in time = when you wake up from the FOG. I am unable to deal with the pain another day. You are dong what is known as cake eating. And that has to stop.

I will no longer be a doormat for your fantasies. [in the back of her mind I bet she knows that it is a fantasy] You have to choose. Choose me and we move forward to a loving marriage we build. Or choose the other guy and go meet your destiny. It is up to you. Make your choice and then do it.

If you make the choice for me and our marriage, then you MUST write a no contact letter to him that I approve and we have to follow the program for recovery and that means you must lead an open life with me, period.

If you cannot do that then you have made your choice. Do it now, I can NOT take the pain another day and I will not take the pain another day. We move forward together or we move forward as you will - it is up to you.

What do you say.

Then stick to your guns = hoist them up and be the man.

WW hasn't come home as of yet.


Debating whether to stop MC or not.

I am worried that after a month or two of MC with little effort on her part she will come to a conclusion that 'she tried', it didn't work, off I go.

My idea is to delay MC until she has made a much bigger committment to it. I won't make a rash decision regarding this but MC is not getting positive results at the moment and maybe giving her 'the excuse' it didn't work down the road.

She is only doing it because I suggested it in my exposure letter. I plan to phone the MC tommorrow to relay the days events as well as to find out what she will suggest.

Please let me know what you think,

Hi Bob...

I am in complete agreement with you regarding stopping the marriage counseling and I believe, as you do, that she will use it to prove her "efforts" to you, if you continue...It is impossible to work on your marriage while she is in an ongoing affair. Individual counseling for yourself is, of course, another story. If there is ANY way possible for you to contact one of the Harleys, I believe that it would benefit you more than you could imagine. They will help you come up with and implement a plan specific to your situation...when everything else in your life seems to be spinning out of control, a very focused approach can help you regain your equilibrium...I'm going back to bed for now, I'll check in when I wake up...Mr. Wondering and I think about you often, and have kept you guys in our prayers...I wish you weren't going through this at all, so sorry...

Warmest Regards,

Mrs. Wondering

Bob,

I like Mr Wondering’s suggestion on the 180 plan. I think while you delay on the MC for a while, it will in the meantime be a good idea to put the 180 plan into practice. Are you familiar with this plan and do you have the guidelines? If not, let me know and I will send you the necessary links and reading material.

According to Steve Harley, plan A and the 180 is incompatible and can’t go together, but IMO it IS possible to combine these two. It will just take some adjustments and strategy but there is areas where plan A and 180 overflow each other. This plan will also help you to keep your 'sanity' and prevent you from becoming your W's 'door-mat'. Some time ago I have sent a BH suggestions on how to combine these two plans so if you are interested I will sent you that link as well.

Blessings,
Suzet

Bob...

Take Suzet up on this offer, and the one for the 180 link, as well...she has some great stuff in her "arsenal"! Definitely a good person to get and heed advice from, IMHO... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. Wondering

Thanks for the replies,


Yes, Suzet, I would be very interested in that information. Please post it for me and thank you so much.

I plan on buying (or reading) Divorce busters book. Is it good? I believe this is where the 180 idea comes from.

i am going to be posting many ideas, thoughts, strategies etc. in the next day or two I would appreciate any feedback on them as well as any suggestions you might have.

Bob, I’m going out for lunch now, but I will send all the links as soon as I’m back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob...

Just wanted to let you know that Mr. Wondering and I will be "checking in" on you today...if I feel like I can add anything useful, I will...Just wanted to let you know that you won't be "alone" in what, I'm sure, won't be one of your best days...Try and take care of you...

Mrs. Wondering

P.S. I never went back to bed, so I'll be groggy, but I'll be here... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

YOU GUYS DO REALIZE THAT PLAN A IS ALL ABOUT THERE BEING CONTACT????..................

Plan A is enacted to aide in the demolition of the affair..

plan A is ALL about contact

plan A is about boundaries and speaking out each time contact happens about the pain it causes the BS without LBing...and powerstruggling it.........

this is under two months of discovery..........
and just four weeks of stated no contact.......
correct????

you should be in plan A..since you certainly ARE NOT in recovery..

ark^^

Bob, yes, the 180 degree guidelines comes from Divorce Busters. I haven’t read the book, but here are the links:

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list

Divorce busting (this is the website link)

The 180 is simple. This is what Michele Weiner-Davis says:

"If you are doing something and getting a bad reaction/no reaction, do the opposite.
If you are doing something and getting (any) positive reaction from it, continue to do it."

Here is the post I sent to a BH a while ago on suggestions how to combine plan A with the 180 degree strategy. Please understand that this is only suggestions. It is not a definitive list of actions you should take. Probably you will have to adjust and strategize the list according to your specific situation and circumstances. It will be good if you can read ALL the posts I’ve sent to the BH on that thread (and not just the one I linked for you) – it will give you a better background. Also read this thread.

Bob, I will be around untill tomorrow morning (me and hubby are going on vacation for a week <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />), but as soon as I’m back, I will follow up with you again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care,
Suzet

ark, are you slamming us? I clearly asked for more advice from other more experienced posters (like yourself) and acknowledged my limited experience with Mrs. BB actions. I've tried my best to help BB from his very first post and he is in counseling with Jennifer and continuing to Plan A.

IMO I think Larry and Suzet posts hit this on the head and I appreciate the support they are offering BB. I think the 180 plan mixes nicely with Plan A. I never said "stop Plan A'ing", I just wanted to divert BB's attention last night to some alternatives so he would not obsess over the immediate crisis in his life. BB has no kids. Even Steve Harley says getting out in this situation would be Mr. Harley's choice. But BB has demonstrated considerable patience and wants to give this his full effort and see if he can save it.

BB is most upset when his WW continually takes off, out the door to see OM for the night. Then comes home and "plays" him. I know in my experience I questioned Plan A with queries such as: "What do I do in Plan A when she comes back after sleeping with OM....Offer her a back rub? Cook her breakfest?". "Do I keep setting boundaries without any consequences?".

I think the 180 plan mix helps here. It gives an alternative to LB's throughout Plan A. Pursuant to Plan A/180 when she comes home he should be in bed asleep. The expected confrontation and needy BB is not there to greet her as she re-enter his home. He remains silent until she inevitably comes to him to question "what's up"....he simply replies that "anything less than no contact is unacceptable", "I'm sick and tired of working on this marriage by myself" and perhaps "I am going to make it through this situation with or without you". He answers her follow up question..."are you going to divorce me?" with another question "are you going to end this affair? He's states his Plan A boundry and implies a consequence without discussing it or threatening it. It is not an ulimatum but at least he doesn't appear like a needy wuss that she can continue to walk all over. If Mrs. BB's behavior/actions improve in the next few days he can slide right back into Plan A; but, the use the 180 plan to avoid LB and stay strong and desirable (which is so important for a male BS) in the face of physical contact. This is a at least an alternative that Bob is smart enough to grasp, consider and utilize in his situation as he sees fit.

The reason I like this for BB is his WW's OM is a complete loser (typical). We here all know she's deep in the fog and will eventually regret her behavior and get off the fence. But her actions are unacceptable and BB needs her to realize this sooner than later. BB is not a yeller. He needs tools to assist him with not appearing as a "needy p*ss" to his cake eating WW. Also, with no kids, BB doesn't have to be a patient with Plan A and just wait out this affair...and it's to early for Plan B as leaving/throwing her out will only assist the affair. So I believe he wants/needs tools he can pick and choose from, that he decides he is comfortable with to assist him with squashing this nasty affair. I think Suzet/Larry are dead on.

BB just wants a shot at a real recovery.

I pray that BB find the wisdom and guidance he needs to change what he can change and accept what he can not. All those inclined to post please offer BB your advice (any Dobson addicts out there - what does he say to do?, also Lemonman - love some practical focus shift advice over here.

BB - Are you preparing another exposure letter or are you going to call the persons on your exposure list? If you call just stay on script. My wife and I think the OM parents are a good start...he's probably been disappointing them for years. Expose all around his life so maybe it will appear to much trouble for him to "date" your wife. Plus you never know who the person of dramatic influence is going to be. Even his boss at Burger King <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> might be a Christian that he respects that will sit him down and give him a good *itch slap into reality. Him dumping her is one way to frustrate a cake eater.

Good Luck, Mr. Wondering

uh huh..I am not slamming anyone ..just clarifying...

there are basic principles of plan a that people often often gloss over...that are really pertinent aspects..

1. plan a is ALL about enacting it while contact is going on....

2. plan a is ALL about NOT ignoring the damage and pain of continualed contact...ie don't say it with LBs...don't powerstruggle it...don't get in an emotional war...speak your pain clearly

3. plan a is a long term commitment...not four weeks...I believe it is 3-6 months..though I could be wrong....it takes times for WS to see changes and time for the changes to be consistant....

I for one have nothing against SOME of the 180's....though some see them as antimarriage builders...

I just get confused when people in plan A are surprise that there is still contact..because that's exactly what plan A is about...

ARK

Ark,

Thank you. I agree I just sympathize so much when I see extreme situations (ie - in your face walking out the door and spending the night with OM). I didn't face this myself but feared I was going to.

Was my follow-up post more clear? I am still testing my instincts on this advising business - Do you agree with my points/advice this morning?

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - I also gave you prop's on the oher thread but I put words in your mouth you may not have meant. You can correct me here if you want.

Ark is correct. Plan A is about improving one's self and one's image as a spouse and negotiationg an end to an active A. It is not recovery.

Dr H has revised his plan A timeline downwards in recent years. I forget what SAA recommends at the moment. But now, six weeks is recommened for women. Three or maybe it's four months for men. However, no plan A timeline should deplete the BS LBank.

Also, for the record, I remember a thread some time ago where it was said Dr H does not agree with nor recommend the 180's. However, I have never seen anything by him directly on this topic.

with prayers,

Small update:

WW comes home, and after spending a night with the OM.

Apparently is going to file for divorce this week, doesn't love me, never will, has no committment to fixing anything, is tired of hurting me blah, blah, blah.

Is it best not to entertain this conversation at all. I know it is all babble. She says OM has a new girlfriend (lucky her if true). I think it is a smokescreen because she wants a separation (1 week to magically clear her mind). I don't know if the girlfriend thing is true, to me it doesn't matter.

Fog, Fog, Fog - She'll do what she's gonna do...you just stick to your Plan A/180 and focus on yourself. If and when you get back together she will hardly even remember saying this and will regret it once reminded.


You can advise her that you don't want to talk about divorce and give her your attorney's phone number. Though she is the one threatening she still may be shocked you even have an attorney. If she questions you/accuses you of planning a divorce yourself don't give a yes/no response reassuring her your not just reverse babble her like I said before with "Are you going to go to No Contact?" or just indicate your not sure - you care about her but at some point you have to protect yourself.


This is a good indication. The day my FWW's OM broke things off with her she discussed with me just getting up and leaving me. A separation. She was so desparate to keep her affair drug of choice and somewhere in there the WW believes the only reason they can't have OM is cause they are married. In the last ditch effort to keep OM they offer to leave their loving husbands. Obviously, my OM said forget it. We were fortunate. I suggest you keep the pressure on OM by exposing to his family, make sure he knows how difficult it will be for him to take your wife back even with the offered divorce/separation. Be nice about it cause you don't want to challenge him (on second thought you may wait a day to see what his response to your wife's proposal is - you don't want to rock the boat and challenge him if he's certain he is moving on).

How are you holding up? Are you starting to feel unsure about whether you even want her back? Plan B is designed to allow you to protect what love you do have for WW until she gets her act together with a definite boundary of No Contact before reconciliation. Only you can determine at what time you feel it is necessary...but moments like last night are often the final straw before Plan B. Let us know how you feel.

Good luck - Mr. Wondering