I'm having trouble talking to my WW. Everytime I try to talk about our marriage or our situation, she gets angry. I know this isn't unusual, so I thought I'd ask how other people have handled this. It seems like we only talk in "soundbites".

I need to talk to her about whether she is still unwilling to work on our marriage and/or do any of the things I have asked her to do. I also want to ask her about going to the MB seminar in Philly. I'm almost positive she will say no, and she even has a decent reason not to want to go. Our daughter was invited to two birthday parties that weekend and they are something we both would like for her to go to. Also, the cost is something I'm not sure we can afford right now.

Even if we don't go to the MB seminar, I need to find out whether she is going to continue with the disrespectful and hurtful behavior.

We just had two of the best days we've had together in a long time, so I'm not sure I want to ruin this by "pushing" her. She really seemed to come alive and pull closer to me after these past two days.

I look forward to hearing from everyone.

GTO

You need to keep doing the fun things you are doing together. She is not ready to hear your demands as of yet. She is still an alien. The time will come and the nice things you do together will help bring this day closer. There will be good days and bad days for awhile yet. Just hang in there.

GTO, she is not ready so don't push her. R-talk is a LB to WW. Just keep it light and fun for a while and let her come to you.

I kind of blew it:

Tonight I said to my wife:

When I first found out about the affair, I was seeking help on leaving. I wanted out, I didn't want to stay with you and I said as much in counseling. What I found out is that I would love to stay married to you, but I refuse to go back to the way things were, or to remain in the life you are creating for us right now. I want something better for both of us.

She asked what I meant. I explained that I felt she has been very disrespectful of my feelings. That I wanted a wife (she interupted and said I had one). I told her that I didn't feel a spouse would do the things she has done, especially after having an affair. She said, well I'm a spouse and she is doing it.

She got angry, said that she couldn't be someone she wasn't and that I would never trust her. I tried to explain that trust has to be earned and she hasn't earned that yet. She then said that I needed to just have faith in her and if I couldn't she needed to divorce me. I tried again to explain that trust is earned, especially after what she has done. She didn't like that answer, she says she hasn't done anything and has been "good" all summer. I again explained that at the beginning of this month, there was another lie. She told me she would find another job, yet here she was working with the OM again. Her reply was, well you've lied to me too. You said you would quit smoking and you haven't. I told her that was a stretch, I told her I would try to quit smoking, but that right now it was more difficult than ever. Besides, I don't think the two are quite the same, but if I promised it, I was sorry and I would be more than willing to make a better effort towards keeping that promise. I consider smoking to be a dirty habit, so I can understand her feelings towards this.

Down hill, down hill, worse and worse.

I didn't do any good. She's still doesn't get it.

She says that she's not going to let the OM dictate where she works. She was there first, let him transfer. I told her this was about us and our need to recover. she corrected me and said this was my problem. And it was me deciding a "job" over our marriage. I once again tried to explain that it was her decision to have an affair with someone she worked with, and how unfair it was to me that I couldn't even visit my wife at work because it was too uncomfortable of a situation.

She really doesn't seem to care. Oh yea, I did start to break down and I told her that I got stuck at a stop light the other day next to the OM. This is just a crappy situation.

I don't think you blew it...you were bluntly honest and there is no shame in that.

I have been lurking on your threads for a while, so I am familiar with your story.

Perhaps you need to start thinking aobut where your "line in the sand" is.

What is your WW DOING to help mend this marriage? Nothing. That being said, will you be happier with her (in her current state) or without her?

I don't know that I agree with SH (I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) There is a point at which the M moves forward or dissolves?

What are you willing to endure for your marriage?

What are you NOT willing to endure for your marriage?

Just a thought...ask her to leave. Perhaps a strong Plan B will SHOW her what she will lose by D'ing you?

It all gets back to what you are willing/not willing to endure for your M and only you can answer that.

Good luck...

WNB

How to tell an angry WW how much she has hurt you ...

NEVER justify your feelings to her ...

BH ... "I am hurt. My heart is broken. I want my wife back."

WW ..."You have your wife."

BH ..."I am hurting. I want my wife back ."

WW ..."What are you talking about? I stopped seeing OM, and you still aren't happy. You will never trust me. We might as well give up."

BH ..."I am hurt. My heart is broken."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

keep repeating until she STOPS trying to ~argue~ you out of your feeling. She won't make any progress until she admits that YOU are hurt and SHE was the author of your hurt.

keep hitting that one note .... broken record style.

She has got to face your broken heart and acknowledge her hand in it .... and until she does, do not agrue with her at all ever about anything.

Do not discuss the relationship until she admits that YOU are hurt ... and shows some sliver of understanding and maybe a hint of compassion ....

I am sick to death of women acting this way ... makes me ashamed of my gender <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

take HER hand and place it over your heart and look her square in the eyes and say

"It hurts so much right here."

"What is your WW DOING to help mend this marriage? Nothing. That being said, will you be happier with her (in her current state) or without her?"

WNB, thanks for the response. I think that's my problem, I can't decide whether I would be happier with her or without her. I'm trying to work that out. I think I've told her that I'm not willing to keep going like we are. So if there isn't any changes on her part, I guess I will finally leave.

I have asked her to leave, she refuses and tells me to leave if I can't be around her anymore. She knows that neither one of us will leave our daughter prior to a divorce.

I think SH did talk about that "(a point at which the M moves forward or dissolves)". It's really how long we can survive like this without a plan.

One other little problem. My wife's dad is an attorney. He's advised her to not give any details about her affair. His reasoning is obvious, you can't be sure that it wouldn't effect the outcome of the settlement and/or custody. So I will never get the truth and/or details about her affair.

If you believe this is true ... divorce her now and save yourself a lot of future heartache.

A family that advises their daughter to lie to her husband for the rest of their lives together ... is not a family you want to depend on .... get out !

That is not a "little" problem...

Repeat after me...He is a scumbag...can you imagine the upbringing from such a person? No wonder her sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility...look what Daddy does for a living. getting people out of taking responsibility for their actions...duh

The fruit never really falls far from the tree

I agree with Pep %100, if this is true run far, run fast, and run with your daughter.

Good Luck Brutha

Grove, I agree completely with what Pepperband has said to you about just repeating that you want your wife back.

And Pep, you don't have to be ashamed of our gender -- my WH acts EXACTLY the same way.

Again, Grove, stop letting her scare you and bully you and surprise you. WS take NO reponsibility for ANYTHING to do with hurting you. Ever. Your wife would, but your WW will not.

Just keep repeating that you want your WIFE back, that you miss your WIFE terribly, and that someone who ignores you and lives their life as if you don't exist is NOT your WIFE.

Mulan

Do you KNOW this? If you REALLY KNOW that her own father advised her to lie to her husband about the affair(s) she had, this does speak VOLUMES!

What REAL evidence do you have (that would stand up in a D court) that she has had affair(s)? If you have such evidence, I would advise seeking an attorney ASAP! You need to be aware of your legal options, including custody rights for your DD.

I have to second the motion and it bears repeating for clarity...

If you KNOW that her father actually advised her to do this, I do not see any hope of you saving this M either.

The military always has a contingency "Go to Heck" plan for a worst-case scenario.

What is your worst-case scenario and how ou you intend to make the best of it for YOU and your DAUGHTER?

It seems that WW is no longer a concern for you as she is taking the advice of her slimy "sperm donor".

GTO,

What your FIL said or didn't say has very little relevance here. For that matter your ongoing debate with your WW is also of little importance.

Would you agree that you can not talk someone into loving you?So why bother to focus on the he said/she said.

I have said it to you before, stop this self flagellation and go on with your life! If she decides that she wants you and your M to survive, it has a much better chance by showing her what she will miss and not what this A has done to her husband.

No more debates.
No more I love you's.
No more talking about your R.

Become the man you were before you met her. Make her miss you!

Let me try and help you here..... Let's go back and show you and MORE EFFECTIVE way to converse with your wife. STOP doing what doesn't work. You see what doesn't work and instead of trying something different, you try MORE of the same.. You are trying to be the "better arguer". That does not and will not work......


Let me helI kind of blew it:

Tonight I said to my wife:

When I first found out about the affair, I was seeking help on leaving. I wanted out, I didn't want to stay with you and I said as much in counseling. What I found out is that I would love to stay married to you, but I refuse to go back to the way things were, or to remain in the life you are creating for us right now. I want something better for both of us.
She asked what I meant. I explained that I felt she has been very disrespectful of my feelings. That I wanted a wife (she interupted and said I had one). I told her that I didn't feel a spouse would do the things she has done, especially after having an affair. She said, well I'm a spouse and she is doing it.

*** Women do NOT respond well to a man when he is too much on his FEELING side. She views him as weak. A woman is much more attracted to a man who she views as emotionally STRONG. Quit telling her how hurt you are. She KNOWS. You are coming across like a child. A woman only knows how she FEELS. Woman are NOT attracted to men who whine.. Stop whining and find a different approach..



She got angry, said that she couldn't be someone she wasn't and that I would never trust her.

*** AGREE.. you should have said..."you are RIGHT, maybe I would never trust you" (then be quiet.)(when you agree with a person it takes the 'tit for tat' out of the conversation.. which moves you FORWARD..

I tried to explain that trust has to be earned and she hasn't earned that yet. She then said that I needed to just have faith in her and if I couldn't she needed to divorce me.

** Quit trying to "explain" or preach or teach her.. When you do those things it PUSHES a person away because they WANT to defend their position. The same as YOU want to defend your position when THEY try to "explain" to you. Stop doing what does not work...


I tried again to explain that trust is earned, especially after what she has done. She didn't like that answer, she says she hasn't done anything and has been "good" all summer.


** explaining did NOT work again. Quit doing what DOES NOT WORK. You are coming across as "preaching".. No one likes to be preached to. They will DEFEND (as she did) their positiion every time.. That is twice you "tried" to explain and twice it did not work.

I again explained that at the beginning of this month, there was another lie. She told me she would find another job, yet here she was working with the OM again. Her reply was, well you've lied to me too. You said you would quit smoking and you haven't.

*** would have WORKED much better to AGREE with her and say.... "You're right. I did lie to you. I am wrong. (AND then SHUT UP) agreeing with the other person when they tell you their point of view disarms them and they suddenly soften.. Try it.. You will see that I am RIGHT.. Stop attacking her with YOUR feelings.. Be a man... Women like STRENGTH.. You are coming across as a little boy who can't make it without his mommy. Let her realize that you will be JUST FINE no matter what.. Let her sense that you have some inner strength.. Quit trying to tell her all your feelings. That is NOT going to work. She is only worried about HER feelings, the same as you are only worried about YOUR feelings. Stop being selfish...

Down hill, down hill, worse and worse.

**** Of course it went down hill. You keep doing things that don't work. Why do you keep doing MORE of things that are not working? It is stupid to do things that don't work..Stop it..


I didn't do any good. She's still doesn't get it.

***She doesn't "get it" because you are putting PRESSURE on her. People do NOT move toward pressure. They move AWAY from pressure. As long as you pressure her to "feel" what she does not feel, the you are wasting your time.. Take off the pressure and learn how to be a productive, man that seems to be going somewhere with his life and has enough self esteem to live with or WITHOUT her. When she senses you have the self esteem to let go, is when she will start to see things in a new light and NOT BEFORE.

*** You can keep doing what you are doing and HOPE that suddenly it will work.(it won't) OR.. You can try to start coming across as a man with strength, integrity, and silent self esteem. Women do not respond very well to men who try and show and tell them how she "hurt" your feelings. They respond much better to a man who shows her that he is a ROCK and that he can and WILL handle anything that happens in his life... EVEN if it means that he CAN and WILL walk away if not getting what he DESERVES..


Take that for what it is worth to you...

Good luck




She says that she's not going to let the OM dictate where she works. She was there first, let him transfer. I told her this was about us and our need to recover. she corrected me and said this was my problem. And it was me deciding a "job" over our marriage. I once again tried to explain that it was her decision to have an affair with someone she worked with, and how unfair it was to me that I couldn't even visit my wife at work because it was too uncomfortable of a situation.

She really doesn't seem to care. Oh yea, I did start to break down and I told her that I got stuck at a stop light the other day next to the OM. This is just a crappy situation.

Thanks everyone!!!

I have a hard time with the preaching thing. I will work very hard to keep that in mind if and when there is another conversation.

I have one concern, my wife will see this as my giving in (no more relationship talk, just moving on and keeping busy). It might help "win" her back, but I have concerns that it will go nowhere towards fixing the problems we had or have in the marriage.

I will keep the whining and preaching down to a minimum. I will show confidence and self esteem and work on myself for a while.

My immediate concern is her working with the OM. This is causing me and our marriage the most damage right now. Or it's causing me the most distress. Is there any way to get her to understand this, without being preachy or controlling or whiney???

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all of your advise and input. I am truly grateful to all of you!!!

***I have one concern, my wife will see this as my giving in (no more relationship talk, just moving on and keeping busy). It might help "win" her back, but I have concerns that it will go nowhere towards fixing the problems we had or have in the marriage.***

You're right about this. It will make her very, very happy and it will make you absolutely miserable.

This just confirms my belief that she does not want a divorce -- what she really wants is to be married at home and single everywhere else. Join the crowd.

***I will keep the whining and preaching down to a minimum. I will show confidence and self esteem and work on myself for a while.***

Well, it can't hurt . . .

***My immediate concern is her working with the OM. This is causing me and our marriage the most damage right now. Or it's causing me the most distress. Is there any way to get her to understand this, without being preachy or controlling or whiney???***

She will never do this unless and until she looks at you with respect instead of just as a meal ticket.

Most folks can only accomplish this with Plan B. If you cannot/will not do this (I can't either,) then stop letting her enjoy the benefits of a husband when she's at home. You can try ignoring her as much as possible when she's at home and not going ANYWHERE with her.

If she complains, just tell her you are a married man and you do not do things with any woman but your WIFE, that you miss your WIFE terribly, that you are waiting for your WIFE to come home.

If she says "I'm your wife!" just think for a minute, shake your head sadly and tell her no, you've made it clear that you are not. Your WIFE would not ignore you and live her life like you don't exist. You are waiting for your WIFE to come home because you miss her terribly and grieve for the marriage you had with her.

Then leave the room. Even better, leave the house for a few hours. Better still, take DD with you when you go and say NOTHING about where you've been -- that you'd be glad to discuss that with your WIFE, but no one else.

If she leaves, ask her NOTHING about her plans or where she's been. She's obviously a single girl who has no partner to consider and can therefore come and go as she pleases. Single people have no one at home to care about what they do or to call at the end of the day. You are only concerned with what your WIFE does.

Do I sound like a broken record yet?
Mulan

That's the way I am heading. I began talking to her these last few days about wanting my wife back and about not wanting just a room-mate.

Still, I have no idea where this is will lead. My wife is going out this week after work to meet the friend who I have major issues with. (this friend helped keep the affair going after d-day).

So my wife just keeps doing whatever she wants, and I keep taking it.

No more, I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I am done with this bull.

I do know that I'm not going to come home and "babysit" while she goes out. I love my daughter and I love hanging out with her, but I have to stop enabling my wife's behavior.

I might just tell her that I've had enough and go have the papers filed.

I don't know. Tomorrow's a new day, and I'm left wondering if this will be the day that the affair starts back up or if she is having contact with the OM.

By now, most of you can probably tell that I'm a "wear my heart on my sleeves kind of guy" and a struggling artist (with a day job to pay the bills). So I've always been good at expressing myself through words or at least it's my way of communicating.

I'm just not capable of being the strong silent type. From what I can tell this was one of the reason that my wife fell in love with me and after seeing the OM, it's also one of the reason for the affair. (Too much talk, too many opinions, etc. . .).

I need to talk to her, I need to have her tell me the truth and it looks like I could probably keep my marriage if I would just allow her to maintain her lies.

What have other people done to address this type of behavior?

I agree that I have been "whiny" and "preachy", so I will stop that type of behavior. I also have enabled much of this behavior, so I will reduce that part of my life and personality also. But when the day is done, I'm the type of person that needs to talk. It keeps me up at night when I hold everything in and it's becoming very unhealthy.

I have stated what I need and want. The ball is now in my wife's hands. From what I can tell, she is going to just sit on it again. Since plan b doesn't seem to be an option, how have other's been able to get their WS to open up?

Um -- Grove -- we've addressed this question on this thread.

She will never "open up" to you as long as she has no respect for you.

How to get respect?

A short Plan A followed by a good Plan B.

Barring that, you could try the suggestion I offered you here.

She will never "open up" to you as long as she has no respect for you. You will only be wasting your time and causing yourself further torment and frustration.

Why not try what has been offered?
Mulan

Mulan,

I am going to try what's been offered. I will begin to no longer enable my wife to live like a single person, I will work very hard at not being preachy or whiney, I am making plans to go out this week with a friend. I will most likely schedule it to be on the same night she wants to go out with her "girlfriend".

For how long???? I'm worn out, and her working with the OM and her behavior have become unhealthy for me. I can not keep this up for much longer.

This is so out of character for me that it's eating me up. But for my daughter's sake I will give it my best.