I didn't mean to imply that YOU were denying it! But we often see a denial of "controlling" behavior because the BS gets hung on the negative, accusing connotation.

It's better to do like Bob and say "You're right, I am being controlling!" and take the wind out of their sails.

I am controlling when I am being threatened by something ... you betcha!

and dern proud of it~ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

But sometimes history makes it tricky. I'm accused of being controlling/coercive/manipulative etc for 13 years. Lots of rewriting marital history, but a kernal of truth. And, long before WW's A, we'd had MC sessions about that behavior.

Now superimpose upon that history recent actions by me to control the A, e.g. exposure. BIG problem. Suggestions?

Two types of control:

Do something that I want that you may not think is positive for me. That is abusive and demanding.

Do not do something that you want to do that you think is positive for you but I might think is negative for me. That is asking for consideration.

This is from Harley's radio show yesterday: "The stay out of trouble liar ... is the person that wants to go ahead and do what they feel like doing without discussing it with their spouse, violating the Policy of Joint Agreement, and so instead of owning up to it and then getting into a big fight, they lie about it...Whenever you violate the POJA, you're going to upset your spouse."

Cherished

Cherished

Hi Cherished

nice to 'see' you hunny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H let me back on.
Cherished

This was my MO as a teenager .... do what I want without seeking parental permission ... and ~then~ face the consequences if I got caught.

Pretty immature for an adult to conduct his/her self this way .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

***If expecting to be treated with courtesy and respect is "controlling," if expecting a married man to put his family first is "controlling," then sue me, I'm "controlling."***

Just quoting from my own post on the first page of this thread. I sure do own "controlling", too.

Am I angry about his choice, Froz? Yes. Because he misled me as to what he really wanted and never even tried to find a way that would allow both of us to get what we needed from the *marriage* instead of from third parties. He did not care how much I was hurt by his deception.

I am angry, but far more I am hurt and rejected. The anger will fade in time, but the hurt and rejection never will.

So sue me.
Mulan

***This is from Harley's radio show yesterday: "The stay out of trouble liar ... is the person that wants to go ahead and do what they feel like doing without discussing it with their spouse, violating the Policy of Joint Agreement, and so instead of owning up to it and then getting into a big fight, they lie about it...Whenever you violate the POJA, you're going to upset your spouse."***

This is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY what my WH does.

EXACTLY.

And if anyone blames ME for this, my HEAD will EXPLODE.

It has always been HIS choice to lie about what he was doing, because he knew it would upset me if he said, "Hey! Do you mind if I ignore you again today while I take Drunk-N-Desperate out for a private two-hour lunch?"

That was HIS choice. It was *never* mine. I took a job at the same place he worked so we could do things like lunch from time to time and waited patiently for him every day.

I hardly ever saw him.

We only went out a very few times. I realize now, much later, that we only went out when his girls weren't around so THEY wouldn't be upset.

Seems like the honorable, constructive and positive choice for a married man would be to take his WIFE out and take care of THEIR relationship. But I am "controlling" because I think it's dishonorable, destructive and negative for a married man to take some other woman out instead and then lie to his wife so he can have them both.

Again - this is NOT what a MARRIED person does.

This is what a SINGLE UNATTACHED person does.

I DO understand that. I have accepted that this is what my "husband" wants.

Yes, it hurts. Yes, I am angry at being deceived. Yes, I feel horribly rejected. But in some ways it's all much easier to deal with now that I have finally had to swallow this.

Yeah, it hurts like h*ll. Your point is -- ?
Mulan

Why would we want to do this?

Mulan, do you believe that you may have engaged in controlling behavior in the past? Does it touch such a nerve because you fear that it's true?

Neither of you can control the other. Having high expectations is not controlling. You want him to behave differently, but there's nothing you can do to MAKE him do it...so why try?

If he behaved the way you wanted him to just because you made him do it, wouldn't that be a hollow victory?

***Mulan, do you believe that you may have engaged in controlling behavior in the past? Does it touch such a nerve because you fear that it's true?***

No. I hate being accused of that because I was not controlling at all -- I never asked for nearly enough, which I suppose is why he felt no need to give me anything. It just infuriates me that I bent over backward not to be "controlling," or a "b*tch," or "the old ball-and-chain," and he took *full* advantage of this to control me to the utmost through lying and deception.

***Neither of you can control the other.***

I think everyone is in agreement on this.

***Having high expectations is not controlling.***

THANK YOU

***You want him to behave differently, but there's nothing you can do to MAKE him do it...so why try?***

I tried offering POJA. I asked him to be an open book to me, as I am to him. I asked him to stop doing social things without me, at least for a while.

I *asked* for these things in an effort to heal the tremendous damage done to our marriage.

He steadfastly refuses all of them.

Is it controlling to want these things? He insists that it is.

For the record, I have stopped asking for them. I understand now that those things are for *couples*. He is not interested in being a *couple*. Honest, I haven't said a bloody word about it for days now -- a world record for me. And I have no desire to.
Mulan

In fact, responding to an affair required PARENTING not just controlling.

WS think they're so mature and special and in love and sh*t during an affair when in fact they behave like precocious pre-teens. Immature, self serving, irresponsible.

WS don't require only CONTROLLING, they require PARENTING.

Its a real culture shock for someone like me to be forced to parent a WW after 17 years of marriage.

SO if guiding childen by example, by setting boundaries and by correction is controlling then YES I ws guilty as charged during Squids affair.

And if there are any FWS offended by my description, well, I'm sorry, but you wanna see how you look from THIS side of the window.

Control freakery has its place and that is in enforcement of personal boundaries IMO.

Mulan

You beed pushing this rope up hill now for a LONG time darl',

What you gonna do now ?

Ok, Bob, I think we've agreed that exerting some control for the good of your marriage during the affair is ok...

But your last post comes very close to being a huge DJ towards Squid.

She wasn't and isn't your child. She is a sovereign adult, regardless of how you choose to paint her. She submits to accountability because she chooses to (unlike a child). This should mean something special to you.

If you find yourself seeing your relationship like a parent/child relationship, I'd suggest you really need to re-evaluate. That's exactly the kind of relationship that set the stage for my affair.

I did not/will not tolerate being "parented". My wife wisely chose to not try during recovery. It's probably the one thing that would've ended our chances quickly and finally.

Why in God's name would you want to be married to someone that you feel like you have to treat like a child?

Low

LO

Squid the WS behaved in a way that needed parenting. Squid the Pre WS and FWs does not. I made that very clear in my post. DURING HER AFFAIR she behaved like a child and needed managing almost as such.

Not before. Not now. Squid does not submit ANYTHING to me any more than I do to her.

I am sure you were very mature , reasonable and decent while you were in the throes of your affair however.

Nice jab, there Bob...very mature.

An adult who is behaving badly is not a child and requires a different approach.

I can only tell you that had I been treated like a child, I would not have responded well to that at all.

My wife took the opposite tack...she realized that she HAD been treating me like a child...and she stopped it.

Editted: Unimportant.

Mulan,

My point is that I've had the same problem -- expecting care and being called controlling. He is an adult, and he has the right to make decisions that hurt you. You are an adult and you have a right to kick his a... to the curb. (This is what Dr. Phil suggested to MT3B, and I thought it was right on target.) Put up or shut up. Those are your choices.

My H got us into counseling with a guy who said "POJA is la la land." After 10 sessions of my arguing with him and demonstrating a willingness to give up what Tom views as negative, I said I was done and wouldn't go back. Tom told me he was going to continue individual counseling with the guy, I said that I felt uncomfortable with that, he got all angry and told me my opinion was irrelevant.

I said, "I can't control you. I can't coerce you. I can't convince you. Move out."

He cancelled the appointment. Harley is recommending separation to me because Tom is only following the POJA to avoid separation and not showing a lot of interest in meeting my ENs, but he is following the POJA because he's going to be in an apartment if he doesn't. In the end, it was very easy. It was as clear as could be to me. I simply wasn't putting up with blatant disregard anymore.

Think about it. He may move out, and you'd be better off being done with him than putting up with his disregard.


Cherished

How do we know whether we're being controlling?

This is my take.

If I'm controlling someone, I'm forcing them to ignore all their options except the one(s) that suits me.

If someone is forcing me to collude in the violation of my own boundaries, then resisting that pressure is not 'controlling'. However, it certainly looks controlling, because in order to effectively resist, I may have to act forcefully in ways that makes the other's options less attractive. I would then be forcing them to ignore all their options expect the ones that protect my boundaries.

In both cases, there is forceful action. That's where the confusion arises.

The difference is between acting to protect personal boundaries (non-controlling), and acting to protect personal entitlement (controlling).

I can judge if something I want is entitlement by asking myself whether it requires someone else to violate their boundaries (or have them unwittingly violated) in order to let me do it. If it respects the other's boundaries, but reduces the attractiveness of their options, then it's not entitlement.

Example: Let's say I know my spouse is scared of horror movies. If we go to the cinema multiplex, and then I work to pressure her into watching 'Wolf Creek' with me, I am forcing her to violate her boundary of protecting herself from being frightened. This is controlling.

However, if I, as a spouse who hates horror movies, decline to see 'Wolf Creek', but suggest my partner sees it while I wait thirty minutes for the showing of 'Pride and Prejudice', then that is protection of boundaries and is not controllling. My partner may dislike his options - he doesn't want to sit alone in the theatre like some wierdo, and he doesn't want to hang around afterwards waiting for me - but I am not attempting to control him. I am simply refusing to collude in the violation of my boundaries.

The trouble is, most of us tend to respond to like with like. I know, if someone attempts to control me, my instinct is to retaliate by controlling back. And, as protecting boundaries looks so much like controlling, it's easy for the other to accuse me of just that, and I struggle to get it clear in my mind.

And if I allow myself to be forced into violating my boundaries (assuming I know they are being violated), then I have a problem to solve. Complaining that the other is controlling is to push the problem onto the other, when it is in fact mine.

TogetherAlone

I did not/will not tolerate being "parented". My wife wisely chose to not try during recovery. It's probably the one thing that would've ended our chances quickly and finally.

So you successfully controlled your BW's approach to recovery ?

BTW yes, my jab was juvenile. Sorry. I tend to slap when I feel I am being misrepresented, but that is no excuse.