Jeannie, your marriage and my marriage is very much the same I am sad to say.

My h too refuses to have sex with me. It is a problem because I don't want sex to be completely gone from our lives. It has already killed the intimacy between us, and he also shows me little to NO Affection.

It is very lonely and frustrating. I am at the end of my rope also so I really do know how you feel. My h NEVER initiates, he's more than once had these sexual dreams that seemed to be so erotic they woke me up from a dead sleep. He also used to view porn and lie to me about it, but turn around and want nothing from me. I look at myself in the mirror and see a good looking woman I'm 30 yrs old and I have a lot going for myself. For the life of me I cannot see how I ended up in a marriage like this and for so long, it's been going on for 9 or our 11 yrs marriage. I will say that I do end up having sex more than once a year.

My h recently told me things like he is not sexually attracted to me nor could he be sexually attracted to anyone. He has no sexual drive and he don't know why but he also refuses to work on himself.

My self esteem is out the door, I am to the point where I don't like sex either pretty sad for a 30 yr old. I am to the point of leaving him almost because I didn't say in my wedding vows I will marry and remain happy with a roomate. I definately had a happier life visualized and I need to be happy for me.

Just wanted to let you know you are so not alone, and although I think this problem is most complained about by men I do know there are other women out there. I really hope you can figure this out...

Angel

Jeannie, I know this is really difficult for you, but I think a plan B might definitely be in order. The seperation would give you time to really think about your relationship. Mine was so similar, altho I didn't learn until after I left that he had abused children from his first marriage, probably due to being molested himself as a child. Honestly, sexual problems that go that far back and haven't been treated are very difficult. The plan B may wake him up or drive him away; but it will be good for you.

You might also read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, as it was very helpful to me. If you wish to talk privately, my email is annavon2002@yahoo.com and my yahoo id is annavon2002.

Jeannie

Sorry about your problem. IMO, his refusal to have a sexual relationship is reasonable grounds for ending a marriage. I have a feeling he has a compulsive personality and has become addicted to internet pornography. The fact that he was molested as a child probably gave him a very warped sex drive and uncontrolled desires that you cannot meet. His sex life is still active, just not with you.

From a male perspective, I'd recommend confronting him about it in a calm and understanding manner. He needs to understand that he will not only lose you, but also be impacting his children's lifes in a way not too dissimilar to the way some monster screwed up his own life. He has to choose -- either his computer, or his family.

Then, you need to get the computer completely out of the house and don't replace it. My guess is he'd like to be with you, but he has a big porn addiction problem. In the end, it is him who needs to take the action - he has to want to get rid of the computer.

Again, just a guess. Good luck.

Easy with the Bible there... there's a catch-22 in this that this lady has to deal with, in that she has already said she wants to be Christian, but also wants sex which her husband isn't providing. Right you are that Paul made it crystal clear that husbands and wives ought not to deny one-another sex, but it really doesn't excuse anything for the deprived one if their spouse won't play by the rules.
Mixing our opinion with the Bible is dangerous to begin with, and that catch-22 is a two-edged sword if the woman wants to have sex at all...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Committedhusb:
<strong>Your husband is violating your marriage, by specifically neglecting his duty to you as spelled out so very clearly by Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:3 & 4. There is no excuse whatsoever for a spouse to deny his or her partner what God has given, period. In my opinion, you would be under no spiritual bondage if you decided to end the relationship after he has refused a fair ultimatum to change, though God gives a special grace to those who endure under the worst circumstances.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other edge of the sword?
While the marital obligations spelled out in 1 Corinthians 7 are a very popular reference - if one doesn't have the benefit of a giving spouse, they aren't God-authorized to go elsewhere. We are under a spiritual bond after refusing or complying with any ultimatum, and the unpopular (or at least very, very, very rarely ever cited) scriptural reference is in four places I can think of, but is its very clearest in Mark 10:1-3, where it says that if any man or woman is set aside (divorced) and then remarries, that is adultery.

It's popular and well-accepted in our society, and the unpopular scripture is so often ignored that I even know ministers (2, personally) and deacons (several) who haven't seemed to notice that part of the Bible, but if the lady is trying to find a Christian answer, then divorcing her husband isn't it.
....And whereas Christ's own words (Matthew 5:32) adultery is a grounds for divorce, it doesn't grant one may remarry, only that one may divorce.

"Looking", be it at porn, other women in the grocery store, or at the beach isn't adultery. It's the entertainment of the desire of it. That in and of itself is sin. You can't "commit adultery" with porn, nor in the aisle of the grocery store for that matter. The actual wording of that verse is, "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart".
...in his heart is a reference to a desire that is wished for but not yet consummated.
The misapplication of Matthew 5:28 is another one of those things we ought not to toss so lightly around, else if the way we often interpret it is true, then most of us are also thieves, murderers, and deviants of every sort because of things conceived and entertained in our hearts.
Lust is a sin all by itself already. Changing it into a new sin (adultery) for convenient scriptural interpretation isn't wise.

The bottom line is that if any of us is in a sexless marriage, or a sexually unfulfilling marriage then we are obligated (that spiritual obligation) to find that fulfilment WITHIN our marriage only and no where else, otherwise to do without. I'll warrant that most of our marriage vows excluded the words, "if" and "unless", and were generally geared toward what we were binding ourselves to give and to do, not what we were hoping to have and to receive.

Personally, I'm not bothered at all by second marriages, but I think that it's bad business to try and use the Bible which forbids it, to justify it.

Hope everyone is well (and none overly ruffled)

Jeannie2,

I thought that for your sake I ought to try and add a bit of encouragement...

For one thing, I admire your patience and calm voice in all this, moreover that you've taken thoughtful and logical steps to correct this problem.

I think first to consider that you've borne this burden for 12 years now - you know, all we only have is one day at a time. And we'll all make it just fine until the end of the day - that's something that benefits me greatly to consider.

It seems like it is your husband who's got issues, and certainly if he's dabbling in things he shouldn't, then he's distracting himself in ways that will prevent you being able get his attention... to fulfill him, of which I understand you're wanting fulfillment yourself.

To have been molested, etc... those are things that are often put up as obstacles. I think that when we entertain those things very much we are liable to only validate them and give them more substance in the minds of spouses who might be inclined to use them against you. If that is a reason.... then its own frailty as a reason is weakened by two things, even broken by the second of the two things. First, that's in the past... it's done.
The second thing... the one that undoes this as any "excuse" for your husband is that between the molestation event he apparently suffered and now (the sexless present) there are two years when you had a sexual marriage. Those two years wouldn't have been there ever at all if his earlier victimization had been any issue... So, that's just an excuse. You shouldn't entertain it, and definitely not buy it.

In the meantime, I suppose that a lot of the time we are just stuck with what we got. "For better or for worse" (and dang if it don't seem like a lot of worse, eh?), but attitude is so very important, and whereas you've been patient, I think it's liable to boild down to your husband's attitude, where he needs to make a choice. I hope that you can find a way to inspire him to choose wisely.

I hope that you are well

ilmf I am so inclined to believe that looking at porn is very much adultery.

You cannot Lust over somebody and excuse that in biblical terms...this man is denying his wife whom he vowed to God to honor, cherish and to love for the rest of his life. He cannot be loving her, honoring her or cherishing her by denying that part of himself.

I am not by any means saying Jeanne should run out and seek out a lawyer. I am saying that using biblical scripture to say a person should stay in an abusive relationship is false.

God is a loving God and as I see it divorce is out of control. More people should work on their marriages and far too many people don't even try.

I feel that abuse comes in all shapes and sizes, he may not be leaving physical wounds on her, but is he not emotionally and mentally abusing her?

I hope her h does see the light, as my h said there is not light switch in his head that will go off. At this point and him being like this, I doubt that there will be a light switch going off in his either. I am sorry her h was abused but that gives him no right to neglect his wife, that gives his no right to expect her to be patient for the rest of her life, while he does nothing to improve his behavior.

There is help, all he has to do is seek it out. He has not done that. So is she then to assume he will never change? If he doesn't, should she stay in a marriage like this that will harbor resentment?

The Bible's scriptures have vastly changed in from the Old testament to the New and I believe that in some instances divorce is appropriate without the condemnation of a christian to burn in hell for leaving thier "abusive" spouse and finding happiness with someone new.

Again I am not saying she should get divorced. I am saying that I believe God knows as all as individuals, and I don't believe that every situation should be treated the same. I don't think that there are only set rules for every instance. He knows her pain and feels her heavy heart, as he does her h's also.

Again Jeanne I hope things work out for you...Take Care, Angel

ilmf-
I am sorry, but your posts did disturb me. First of all, you do not know enough about my first two years with him to assume that his molestation did not affect our sex life. The first month that we were together, the sex was frequent, but twisted and perverted. For the next two years, we had sex about 15 times, mostly in a perverted way. I let him convince me that I should try new things, and I should just learn to relax. Yes, I have chosen to stay with him, even though he has kicked me out of the bedroom at times (even going so far as to buy a bed for me and set it up in another room.) You have obviously not lived through the rejection of a spouse. Do you REALLY think that it is justified for a husband or wife to have to go through life in celibacy???!!!!

For the rest of you, I thank you once again for your support. I am feeling better already. Keep the posts coming!

Angel,
I feel better to see that I am not the only one. I do have a question for you. Does your husband watch a lot of TV? Does he lack exercise? The reason why I ask you these things is because I know that my husband has used his lethargy (along with every other excuse in the book) for not making love to me. I know that these things do lower the sex drive. If you are able to, maybe you could suggest an evening walk and then try to initiate something. I know that would never work in my case, but hopefully it would in yours!

Keith,
Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately his career and my schooling involve the need for computers in the house. I believe that if a person is going to look at porn, they will find a place to do it (like at work!)

Annavon,

Thank you. One thing that I am 99.999999 per cent sure of is that he hasn't touched our children. BUT, I do not like the way the 9-year-old twins that we tutor hang on him. One of them is always on his lap or his leg. When I tell him that it is completely inappropriate, he acts like I am the one with the problem. I have told him that he is going to get himself into trouble if one of the other kids innocently says something, but he just rolls his eyes and says that it is ridiculous. He cannot see that it is WRONG to have a little girl hanging on him. Since I have known him, he has been accused twice of touching a girl (two separate incidences) and I believed him when he told me that they were both completely misconstrued and WRONG. Am I a complete idiot? By the way, the one twin who hangs on him the most always backs off when I come in the room. It's as if she knows that it is wrong, and she certainly knows that it upsets me. But, he sees absolutely nothing wrong with it. I almost wish that someone would say something so that he might wake up!

baba2,
My husband has always claimed that he wants sex, too, but I am too mean and he just can't bring himself to have sex with me. We split up a few times for quite a long time, and each time he manipulated me into thinking that we were going to work things out and that our sex life would improve. Each time we got back together, he made love to me passionately, once, maybe twice, before completely drying up again. The time he convinced me to marry him was after we had been split up for almost a year. He convinced me to stop using birth control, and to marry him. I was pregnant on our wedding day, and our honeymoon (which was two nights) consisted of perverted sex the first night, and no sex the second night because the "poor thing" said he was catching a cold. The honeymoon was a perfect indication of what was to come, although I really already knew it. Honestly, I do not think this problem will ever get solved. I have prayed and prayed for a miracle, and we just get farther and farther apart every day.

Jeanne yes my h does watch a lot of television when he is home. He also works odd hours, but the time he is home his quality time is always watching a movie. I've had it up to my eyeballs with him always wanting to watch television. Now he is into sports all the time now, he is always latching onto SOMETHING....Rather than deal with our problems. He thinks that if we don't talk about it there's no problem.

As far as Ilmf...I do believe that he knows what it is like to be in a hard marriage. He's here at marriagebuilders to learn a new way and he's been very successful at it. I was just saying that I didn't think that a marriage like this was meant to go on forever and forever in fear of leaving for biblical reasons.

No..my h will not take a walk, no he does not EVER initiate....he turns me down when I come onto him (most of the time). I know my h does not want a sexual relationship he told me so, but like your h he sees a problem but is not taking strides to fix them. He does not want to talk about them, he does not want to acknowledge anything.

It's extremely difficult in a situation where you are carrying the marriage alone, and you are desperate to meet somewhere in the middle with a spouse who is unwilling.

I have to say the fact that your h says he does still desire sex, is a real plus. I have no hope for that and without him making steps toward the marriage rather than staying in his little world, it is only a matter of time and I know that.

Again...take the positives coming from him because they are there however small they may be. See how things go and work on his desire to have sex in a loving not forceful way.

Angel

Jeannie,

I wish I had some word's of wisdom to offer, I know all to well what you are going thru, do you have family and friend's that you can use for emotional support?

You cannot make your H do anything he does not want to do, and if he does not want to deal with the issue's this does not leave you much for option's. Are you in counciling?

I know your need for affection and emotional connection is going to get very strong, if it is not already. I almost made that mistake last summer, it will not be the right way.

No one has the right to force a life of celibacy on you, but that does not give you the right to have A's.

Do you think your H would actually do anything to children? I know my W wouldn't, but sometime she goes into her zone when she is changing our youngest and I do tell her to snap out of it.

My W told me she cannot live without sex, but she cannot have sex with me, I can count on my hand's how many time's I have had sex in the last twelve year's, infact I can remember every time I have had sex, there is no confusing my sex life.

I look at it this way, if your sex life stink's, chance's are pretty good that your relatioship stink's. Your H has to want to be in the relationship in the NOW, and stop living in the past. But it is not going to be easy, only he can make the decission to want to work on himself, and you need to work on yourself for yourself.

And the worst part is there is NO garauntee.

Jeannie

The more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you haven't helped somewhat to create the mess you're in. For example, you describe that he wants only "perverted" sex. Well, some may believe anything besides "missionary" is perverted. Others believe anything goes. If there was any pre-marital sex, you should have gotten some clue. I find it ironic that many women engage in much wilder sex while dating than after they've been married for awhile ... it should be the other way around. Major manipulation and a COMPLETE turn-off for men.

In my experience, there is ALWAYS two sides to a story.

PS - You state suspicions about him and the girl twins, but say you are 99.99999999% sure there is nothing going on. Yet, you say he's been accused TWICE of touching children! There is alot to your story that doesn't add up for me.

Since I have known him, he has been accused twice of touching a girl (two separate incidences) and I believed him when he told me that they were both completely misconstrued and WRONG. Am I a complete idiot?

Just my opinion...

I think that these statements are very enlightening.

While an accusation can be made once and be wrong and forever damaging, I don't think that 2 separate accusations can mean anything other than something is amiss.

When you say that he looks at the most perverted and taboo porn...does that entail child pornography? If it does, it would be giving me the biggest red flag that you can imagine.

Our instincts are usually on target...if you feel uncomfortable it is usually a warning signal.

My biggest concern would not be his not having sex with me. My main concern would be determining if he is being inappropriate to children.

As Always, JMHO
committed

Welcome to MB. I feel for you. My wife is an abuse survivor and we have had sex very infrequently during our 10 year marriage. We have 2 children, both conceived on 1st or 2nd try.

As with your husband, she needs total control of when we make love. Others have pointed out that this is a very common reaction among abuse survivors. That makes you feel less alone in your pain, but it does not remove the pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jeannie2:
<strong>One thing that I am 99.999999 per cent sure of is that he hasn't touched our children.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is good news (if true). But how would you feel if you found out he has? What would you do then?

The answers to these questions are very important in light of what else you wrote.

BUT, I do not like the way the 9-year-old twins that we tutor hang on him. One of them is always on his lap or his leg. When I tell him that it is completely inappropriate, he acts like I am the one with the problem. I have told him that he is going to get himself into trouble if one of the other kids innocently says something, but he just rolls his eyes and says that it is ridiculous. He cannot see that it is WRONG to have a little girl hanging on him.

This is VERY worrisome. You are correct to think this is wrong.

I am very friendly toward children. I make funny faces and play peek-a-boo with strangers' children at restaurants, airports, airplanes, etc. I play tag and hide and go seek with all the neighborhood kids. But I cannot remember a single instance of having someone else's female child sitting on my lap.

This is inappropriate. I mean once or twice while reading a story or helping them tie their shoes or comforting them over an injury might be OK - but these girls are 9 and presumably can read and tie their shoes so why do they have to sit on his lap?????

Since I have known him, he has been accused twice of touching a girl (two separate incidences) and I believed him when he told me that they were both completely misconstrued and WRONG. Am I a complete idiot?

OMG!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Do you still beleive his explanations? If not, what are YOU going to do about it?

By the way, the one twin who hangs on him the most always backs off when I come in the room. It's as if she knows that it is wrong, and she certainly knows that it upsets me.

Children generally do know when their behavior is wrong. Some have better poker faces than others. You are lucky that this girls does hide her feelings well. Follow you (and her) instincts here.

But, he sees absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Of course he doesn't. He is sick. As in he has a disease. A mental illness. He nees help. Not everyone who needs help asks for it. Plenty of addicts continue to indulge their weakness long after they realize it is harmful. But they can't help themselves. They often need someone else to motivate them to seek help. Will you be that person? Sometimes "tough love" is required. Can you love your husband enough to see that he gets the help he needs?

I almost wish that someone would say something so that he might wake up!

Well, what are you waiting for? Why can't you be the "someone" who says something?

I know it is hard to "squeal" on your husband. You may fear the financial consequences. You may fear his reaction. You may fear your children's reaction.

But I go back to my first questions. If YOUR children were being molested by your husband, what would you do? Shouldn't you do the same to protect someone else's children? Look at the pain your husband's molestation has caused him, you, and your kids. Are you going to doom several other families to this fate?

Are you going to wait until he DOES get caught by someone else to speak up? How will you feel then when it comes out (and it will) that you had suspicions months or years earlier and said nothing? Will you be able to live with yourself then?

I know what I am suggesting is not easy. I do not envy you your choices. But neither do I not feel there is any doubt which is the better choice.

You have to tell your husband that if he does not seek help for this RIGHT NOW, that you are going to go public with your fears and suspicions. And if he doesn't get help, you have to insist that he not have ANY unsupervised contact with children. Period.

Even if that means you have to stop tutoring other children. Even if stopping reduces your standard of living. Whatever recreational activities or material possesions you obtain with those funds will be cold comfort when the truth about your husband emerges. The tutoring money will feel like blood money. You will lose self-respect.

When your husband's activities are discovered, you will certainly be questioned as to whether you had any suspicions. How are you going to answer those questions?

If you get charged as an accomplice to his molestation, who will care for your children then? Even if you are not concerned by how your husband treats other children, aren't you concerned about what will happen to YOUR children if he gets arrested and then you are dragged into the case?

This may sound harsh. And it is much easier to say than to do. But I find your post very frightening. I would hate to be a parent whose kids you were tutoring. So while I wish you well, I do not see YOU as the biggest victim here.

Those kids are. The ones he may molest. Their families (present and future). The ones THEY molest because they were molested. This disease is like an infectious disease. A plague. It gets passed from one carrier to other innocent victims. People with the disease have to be quarantined because there is no "vaccine" which protects children from the consequences of childhood abuse.

Please please please do what in your heart you know is right. Let your faith overcome your fear. Be brave and strong.

Who knows, perhaps God's will in permitting you to endure 12 years of sxless marriage was precisely to put you in a position to stop your husband from committing a heinous act? Perhaps this is the crucial moment just before your husband crosses the line?

So often we ask ourselves "why me Lord? Why do I have to suffer this fate?" Often we never discover what God intended to accomplish. Perhaps you will be one of the lucky few who gets to see some good come from her suffering?

Just because the man was abused does not mean he is a child molester. I believe her eyes are wide open and if something were to happen she would know.

I am not saying there are no warning signs, but couldn't there be another explanation? Of course she should keep her eyes open to protect any child of abuse, but what is being said could lead to dangerous accusations as well.

Could it possibly be that he was innapropriate BUT at the time didn't know any better. OR with his upbringing this was accepted, and he is learning now as an adult?

I agree if this were the case he should be more careful for an innocent situation to possibly look bad, BUT I am a child who was touched as a child and when the man touched me even at a younger age than 9 I would move.

I am having a hard time believing that if this was that kind of touching the child wouldn't remove herself from his lap. She eagerly sits on his lap so maybe she is the type of child who loves men, who has no strong bond with a man in her life ect....

Jeanne keep your eyes wide open, keep explaining to him that he could get into trouble. That you love that he is good to the girls but explain that he must be good in different ways.

Angel

Was that realy HOTI? or was that an imposter? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Jeanni, just because someone was abused does not mean they will be abusive, but being accused is not something to take lighly.

Keith,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you haven't helped somewhat to create the mess you're in. For example, you describe that he wants only "perverted" sex. Well, some may believe anything besides "missionary" is perverted. Others believe anything goes. If there was any pre-marital sex, you should have gotten some clue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont think you can blame Jeanni for the state of there marriage, she cannot fix this from the outside, and being a submissive W is not going to fix it. In fact it will get worse.

I know lot's of people that had pre-marital sex and their marriage's are doing just fine.

Jeanni had no way of knowing how much of a problem there was actually going to be and being controlled all the time and having no sex life make a person not feel very good.

Sorry...posted before through.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

I am assuming the perverted sex was like being tied up. I could be wrong. Somehow, you dropped all your personal boundaries while you were still dating this guy even going so far as to "give" him your body to create a baby. This tells me you felt so bad about yourself you were willing even to have a child for him. In fact, you were willing to do whatever he wanted at that time and for the next 14 years. And willing to give up your own sex life.

Had you been able to keep your personal boundaries intact, you would have said,"I am leaving this pervert and meeting someone normal!" after a few months of dating him. Or, you would have never even thought of "marrying" him but rather broke it off when he (who you knew was sexually messed up) suggested dropping the birth control.

He would have perhaps been a good two month "dating experiment" to see another area of sexuality that you may have not experianced otherwise. But he was not a good choice for a lifetime mate.

Does he have some good "lifetime mate" qualitites along with the perversions?

Did you fall in love with him as flawed as he was and just throw your good judgement to the wind by getting pregnant and marrying him?

Thank goodness now you are waking up to your once hidden boundaries. Personal boundaries you have not excersised in many years. You have not truly defined your boundaries for over a decade! You have stuffed your needs down deep. And done what he wanted, lived the life he wanted, lived for him, etc.

What kind of life have you given him due to the resentment you must have felt on some level? This could be the grouchyness, etc.

Rather than declare your boundaries and stick to them (No perverted sex and "normal sex frequency" to be once a week) perhaps you kept going along with him and then took it out of his hide in other ways.

Does he have any redeeming qualities that would make you want to work this out?