You wrote:<BR>"IMHO a big problem with people these days is a refusal to take responsibility for one's actions and choices. I've seen many of the<BR>betrayers here justify their behaviour instead of honestly admitting that they were at fault. Don't blame me for writing the truth, don't be angry at me for my honesty. Be angry with those who cannot be truthful, who cannot be honest. I truly do not understand betrayers as they still do what they do when the consequences of their actions/choices are so clear!"<P>AND...In your first post you said you had read many posts from betrayers who felt sorry for themselves and blamed their SO. <P>Well Elixer, since you're so good at calling names...NAME NAMES! I want you to list the betrayers you're referring to. List them! #1, #2, #3, #4, #5,...Let's see just how brave and outspoken you can be! <P>And a question for those of you who welcomed Elixer after she made her grand appearance...How do you do it?<BR>Clothespin on your nose?<BR>A tsp. of Sugar?<BR>A suppository version put where the sun doesn't shine?<P>Because I found this "ELIXER" impossible to swallow! <P>Perhaps Harley should ask for opinions on a name change for this forum...how's "MarriageBuilding for the Betrayed" sound?<BR>Frankly I'm sick of people taking sides & making the CREEPS feel unwelcome! Why are the creeps here if there not here to rebuild their marriages?! Oh I know...it's to wallow in the misery of other betrayed, the misery of their SO isn't enough! PLEEEEEASE!<P>Anyway, Elixer, give me names. You might just get your backside kissed some more by <BR>your "followers", you know the non-Creeps.<P>P.S. Creeps? Honey & all of you that support her narrow-minded soapbox BS, you give me the creeps! You'd think Elixer never made a mistake or ever did anything wrong. If she had, how can she label everyone who has only made a DIFFERENT mistake than she? I know of only ONE perfect person and HE forgives. Unless you can learn to do that, why are you here? Any attempts at marriagebuilding without forgiveness is futile! <P> <BR>

Perhaps someone "got to her" the way that she has "gotten to you"?<P>Her post was reactionary and her point of view within the spectrum of that reaction. Yours is also.<P>Difference being - Elixer was met with understanding and only a small amount of anger. It seemed to stem from pain.<P>Yours - well I am upset by the fact that it seems you want to start a big war!!<P>This is not an arena for antagonizing and blaming each other for some generic<BR>"nametags". Our only enemy here is INFIDELITY!!!!!!<P>What is wrong with people? I just don't get it!!!!<P>Who the hell cares what some stranger says about "unknown" people? IGNORE IT and put this energy into your own perspective on your own life!!!<P>I come here for PEACE.... and knowledge... and to vent if I want - when someone vents they are referring to their own EXPERIENCES and their own perspectives.<P>GET IT?????<P>Take the good and leave the rest!!!<P>PLEASE????<P>Thank you,<P>Hugs and May God Bless<P>Sheba <P>

You wrote:"I want those that have betrayed to recognize their fault, to accept it without trying to lay blame on anybody else (after all,nobody held a gun to your head), and only from there can you heal and move on with a life that involves your SO. I want those<BR>who are betraying (betrayers, OP) to look at themselves in the mirror and think - WHY AM I DOING THIS?"<P>One more thing...who do you think you are? You need to tend to your own knitting! Maybe if you had, your Hubby would have been faithful? I still want you to enlighten us, which betrayers are you referring to? It's an enigma! Only the almighty Elixer knows!

Sheba,<BR>I like you. My intent is not to start a "big war". Since my query is to Elixer only, how can it? Don't I have a right to be angry? When Elixer came onboard name calling was that not firing the first shot in this "war?"<BR>If she dishes it out, she'd better be willing to take it. I tried to ignore her thread; but, as it gets bigger and bigger, I get angrier and angrier.

Hi Elixer,<P>Only because I saw this post before you... and have probably had a bit more experience on the board...<P>don't bite on this one.<P>But, then again, you probably knew that.

Creep:<P>Let it go, Man. Let it go.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Okay, Creep, I'm not Elixer. (Whew, at least today I know who I'm not.) <P>I've been away, haven't read Elixer's thread because the title was inflammatory, and personally, I have enough trouble handling my anger without reading threads guaranteed to generate it. But just from your exerpt, it doesn't sound like she knows beans about MB principles. Maybe you know me, maybe you don't, but I've been on the MB boards since Dec 98, and my profile is up-to-date. I'm the nut that has taken her uncommited H back 5 times--and just went to Disney World with him and the kids when he was telling me he would move out this week and our marriage is over. All of the things my H has put me through and you know what? Right before I came into the computer room I put my hands on his cheeks and kissed him on the lips. I don't consider him a creep and would take issue with anyone who does. He's the man I love. He's a betrayer. Big time. He's caused me more hurt than anyone on the planet, he's also given me more joy. I forgive him.<P>I believe in the MB principles. I've read literally dozens of books on marriage and relationships this past 18 months (I own a used bookstore and have been creaming the self-help section) and the ones that say they are successful all sound a lot like MB. I maybe don't post much to the betrayers. But believe me, I understand the pain and exactly what it takes/costs to come back to a marriage when you have been unfaithful. It's the reason I have mercy for my husband. And you. And will never call you a creep when you post as a betrayer. Love and forgiveness are far more powerful than anger and hate. <P>I might not get my marriage back but I will never regret showing my H how much I love him. I won't regret the effort & sacrifices I have made. I'm no doormat. My actions have been my choice--except for the times I've lost it, and regretted it.<P>I'm still not going to read Elixer's thread. At least, not today. I know that sometimes a poster gets under your skin. Carlton did it last for me. I posted late and all I could say was that he was "icky".<P>Whoever you are, Creep, take care.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

LoneStar & Duncanmac,<BR>Gentlemen,<BR>Creep is showing "ANGER".....he is not acting in a nice way to another person on the board...he is told to "not bite"...hmmmmm. ("Sigh" as LS writes). <P>And Lone Star,,I was here the first day you showed up on this forum. It would seem obvious that you have become a part of the "group"...the "in" crowd on the Forum. Good for you my friend. If I could write one thing, to perhaps give you a suggestion, it would be to NOT attempt to censor People on this Forum. Please don't use your perceived "status" here, as someone who wishes to control the free flowing dialogue that is created here. This is said in a helpful manner only. By the way, I like what you write, and I'm happy that you have been able to accept your wife's infidelity so quickly.<P>Take Care,<BR>DG99(H)

Speak the truth in love is a good rule for all of us to follow.<P>Elixir's first thread was full of anger...but that is a step in this whole process, isn't it? She followed up with more of her story which gave more a complete picture.<P>Even if she did not speak the truth in love the first time, is it alright to try to "get back" in anger?<P>Never let another person's actions determine your demeanor. If you are going to get caught, get caught on the high road.<P>And if you are going to post don't make up a name...speak your peace as yourself.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Dear Creep,<P>I know you are angry. But darn it!!! I was hoping when I opened this thread that I would find that the recent person who has been posting inappropriately to justify being an OM, (and you know who I mean) had finally changed his name to an appropriate user name; ie: CREEP.<P>Elixer is in discover, golly gee - and yes he's angry. I'd much rather have Elixer venting here than there. And we all have our own cross to carry - so let's quit dividing ourselves.<P>Anyone who is here to build their marriage is one thing. Anyone who comes here to try and destroy more marriages - like the real CREEP - that is something else.<P>The title of his thread was appropriate to the content. Please refrain from reading threads that look like they can make you upset!<P>There is only one creep on this board, and it isn't you or Elixer.<P>TNT

Hi Creep,<P>Sorry, but I'm not going to single out individuals. Pointing out, person by person, post by post, the statements which eventually overwhelmed me would do no good. It was really not any one individual, but a gradual tide of isolated statements from a great many that inspired me to say anything at all. <P>I had finished reading a bunch of posts (some pretty old) with people blaming their actions on their SO - statements like: "...they weren't there for me emotionally," "I felt sexually unfulfilled," "...we didn't click on an intellectual level," and suddenly I was very angry. Supposedly all these people were here to heal and help heal, and instead they were refusing to take responsibility for their own lives. They laid the blame, the fault, the responsibility for all of their actions and choices on somebody else. I wanted to bring it to the attention of betrayers, the ones who are doing it now and who are refusing to heal by laying blame anywhere but where it belongs, that they must take responsibility for their lives and how they have chosen to live it, or there will never be healing.<P>I also don't feel like I was calling anybody names. I felt like I was using the appropriate term for the type of person that I was describing. I'm sorry my choice of words offended you, but it seemed only fitting. Like I wrote previously, I didn't think that "angel" or "wonderful person" was a fitting appellation for somebody who so thoughtlessly ruined the lives of those supposedly dearest to them in life, and then callously blamed the devesation on anybody and everybody but themselves.<P>I believe that everybody has the right to express their opinion, and to either agree or disagree with a post/thread as they see fit. Attacking people just because they agreed with what I said makes just as much sense as attacking somebody because they agreed with a person who thought a wall was "eggshell coloured" as opposed to your opinion of the wall's colour - "beige." It makes no sense to call those who agreed with me "followers," either - I have made no attempt to shape anybody's opinion. If anybody agrees with me, it's their choice - they're not "followers," they are individuals who simply chose to agree with what I wrote at that particular moment. If somebody agreed with you, would you then consider that person your "follower?" It seems an unreasonable assumption to me.<P>Furthermore, I never claimed to never have done anything wrong. I'm definitely not an angel - the very thought makes me laugh. I am not without sin, my friend. The sight of sin being justified and encouraged made me lose my temper somewhat, and I wanted to express my opinion on the subject before the fire inside me died down completely. I also believe that if you are a Christian, you must first take responsibility for your actions and penitently, humbly, forgive yourself and stop sinning before any higher power can forgive you.<P>You can be more than a creep if only you want to be, and if you have the courage to try.<P>Elixir

Elixer,<P>Your mistake was generalizing and you did call all betrayers here creeps. I made the mistake once, of believing that the only "group" of people entitled to feelings were the betrayed. That was a self righteous attitude, and it was wrong. Absolutely wrong. <P>Could it have been less personal, if you used the phrase "The ACT of infidelity is creepy", instead of saying "Creeps are Infidels". Because maybe not all creeps are infidels?<P><BR>

OK.<BR>I've cooled off since beginning this thread.<BR>I've decided, not that I really expected Elixer to do it, that revealing names wouldn't be wise. A revelation such as that probably would start a "war" and I really don't want that. There is enough "taking sides" in this forum already.<BR>FHL, it's not ok to "get back" in anger. I agree with you; but, sometimes anger gets the best of good people. Regarding my new name, like Elixer said,"if it walks, talks, quacks...", although when I look in the mirror I see a sad face "aged" from pain & heartache, yet eyes filled with hope. Is my reflection any different than many of yours? Elixer? <P>Good night & sleep well friends.<P>*Quack*

Glad to see that the War that wasn't is over before it began. I just joined this forum so I could get some insight and see if I could find out why I'm susceptible to doing "creepy" things (obvious reference. I certainly didn't intend to join in on an anger filled self serving pity party. <P>The fact is that none of us did or failed to do anything without help. Why can't we say that he/she didn't meet our needs? After all, that must be what we think, right? Why else would we be feeling sorry for ourselves and for the things we have done?<P>I think it would serve us all well to understand that NONE of us is without sin in one form or another. That way we can share and build together instead of pulling things apart. It's obvious that we are pretty good at the latter or we wouldn't be here.<P>So far if I cull out a lot of the anger and B.S., I find that what we have is a lot of decent people with some serious issues to discuss and find answers for. I don't think that any one of us would be here if we didn't want to salvage our relationships and our self-respect.<P>Thanks for providing me with this platform. I will continue to read all the posts and filter out the ugly stuff and see if the good stuff will help me in my venture back to reality and sanity.<P>Flip..

Yes anger does get the best of us sometimes, that's why it is best not to get your panties, boxers or briefs in a bunch when you run across and angry thread.<P>It takes character to say you were wrong. I'm glad you cooled off.<P>I think we are all better off taking a good look at the face in the mirror because we are all accountable for our own lives and we can only really choose our own actions and reactions. We have all made mistakes and hopefully here we are on the same journey to healing and growing no matter what side of the tracks we started on or what destination our journey leads us to.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13