Went to dinner last night with WH. Went ok. I really feel like there's nothing left between us. I mean, there's all the hope I have for what used to be and what might have been, but when it comes to what WH is feeling, I don't think there's anything left.

He is so good at detachment and compartmentalizing things. I explained to him what my boundaries are in further detail. I had given him an almost plan b letter on Sunday. He tried to shut down the conversation, as usual, but I calmly continued and finished what I was trying to say and then let him change the subject.

He still says that he cannot forgive me for my attacks on him, even though he says he knows why I did it. I told him how self-centered I thought that point of view is and he's not looking at the whole picture. He says everyone has their opinion and point of view, this is how he feels. He says he'll never trust me again.

What am I doing? What should I be doing?

Dday was not long ago for you and let me give you the perspective of this FWS(man do I hate that I have THAT distinction)

I don't know much about your story beyond this post. I am assuming that you are dealing with a PA from him. Also, how long it ran would be good information.

That said..


He can not forgive you? This is a remark diseased with pride and an attempt to deflect some of the way he feels about himself(like crap) back to you.

I have the ability to compartmentalize and detach as well. These traits have not served me well all the time. They have been good survival tactics in times of extreme pain and duress, like the death of my mother when I was a child. Like during the childhood years when I was obese and was made fun of by everyone(HA!... if they could see me now!!!... anyway).

I think it is interesting that many things get discussed on this forum, but defense mechanisms and discussions about them never really take place.

Back to the C&D thingys. Being able to protect oneself from extreme pain and duress is a good skill. However, using that skill to subvert or redirect rightful responsibility for one's actions is not.

I made froz a victim. I am responsible for that. When she tried to talk about her feelings(which made me feel horrible) I didn't answer questions and I did not want to face it. I lied as well. I was more passive in my defense mech.

Your H is more aggressive. Trying to change the topic. Trying to kill the conversation. Has he tried to pull rank? "I'm the husband here and you needn't worry your feeble little woman mind over things that don't concern you" or some crap like that?

He knows he's wrong. He knows he was wrong. He is trying to deflect his 'pain' back at you or just simply off himself.

He needs to accept what he did was wrong. He needs to accept that he hurt you badly and that it was not right. But then he needs to take that remorse and 'guilt' and turn it into "I will not be THAT man ever again". No one can change the past. Ignoring it and living in it does no one any good, really. So it is a fine line. He has to accept what he did was wrong. And that his wrong-doing brought about changes in you(distrust, hurt, pain, doubt, fear and so on)

What are you doing? What should you be doing? Well, if you communicate your feelings without blaming him for everything, to include the rain that flooded everyone but Noah, and you tell him your boundaries then you are doing the right thing.

If you have attacked him, called him horrible names, LBed and indicted his very soul with your anger(which you are justified in having, but not justified in unleashing it on him just to make yourself feel better) then you need to stop that.

IF you are in recovery, or trying to be, recovery is not about "your the worst person I know, fix it"

It is about 'you made horrible choices, but we are going to work through this together'

Which means he has to be on your team. And if he is deflecting responsibility for his actions and trying to brush over it, he is not on your team.

The WS has to accept that they really screwed up, but that tomorrow and the future can be right.

When a WS realizes that they are good people that did something bad, and not bad people over all... and that the pain they caused someone they professed to love is very real and very damaging, then you have a start I think.

The WS has to 'want to make this right' Deflecting responsibility is not 'wanting to make this right'

It is wanting to forget. And thus, dooming one's self to make the same mistake.

I would love to give you an insight to me recovery and the massive turn for the better it has taken recently, but I feel like I don't have enough info about you to help. Are there other posts somewhere that explain your situation?

Hi Patriot, thanks for your insight.

I looked back over my posts and yes, there are a bunch of them related to my story but it's pretty scattered so I thought I'd sum it up for you here.

On 4/2/05 H and I were in an auto accident. Pretty serious. At one point during the accident H actually thought I was dead. I spent 3 days in the hospital and 4 weeks recovering from injuries. I lost my job due to this. H had very minor bumps and bruises.

I felt a real distance forming b/w us but at the time didn't have the energy to do much about it. I was wrapped up in my own issues. By the end of May I started asking H if maybe he should start seeing a councilor about the accident, could that be why he seems so distant latey? He said he was fine.

On Friday, 5/27 H tells me he will be traveling to dealers all day on Tues 5/31. Something he very rarely has to do, but I think nothing of it and forget about it. On 5/31 in the afternoon I try calling H at his office, no answer. I call his assistant and she tells me he took a vacation day. By now I have already started to think the worst and have a person in mind who might be the OW and she's a coworker of his. I ask if she's in the office, again, no.
I call WH on his cell and he answers. I can tell something isn't right. He admits to not going to work and going offroading. I ask if OW is with him. He says no. He doesn't get home for another 2 1/2 hours and I ask the same Q again. Again, he says no, you can call her if you don't believe me. So I do. She is surprised by my call and says, "I'm sorry, I wasn't with him today. I was in Pittsburg this weekend" I don't believe this, but let it go. WH is pissed.

During this next week and a half I ask WH if he's having an affair with OW. Again, denial, they are friends. Finally I install a spyware program on the computer. On 6/10/05 I wake up and read the logs of the spyware program from the night before. I find the proof that they are in fact having an affair and are making plans to be together after they both get divorces.

I call WH immediately and confront him. He says we'll talk that night. I wait all day in complete anguish and despondency. That night our talk consists of him telling me he never loved me, he tried but he can't, this has nothing to do with her, it's all about him, the accident made him realize how he really felt about me. Then he moved out, his choice. (He claims now that he was feeling 50/50 about our M at this point)

He moved in with his mother and grandmother. We went to MC sessions (completely useless IMO) and I behaved like a lost puppy just finding a new family - lovemelovemeloveme!!

Week following D-Day I exposed to OWH, MIL, SIL, WH's boss and OW's boss, 2 mutual friends that are also WH's co workers. (these are the attacks WH speaks of, says I was trying ot get him fired and destroy his life) Major anger on his part and lots of 'it's over' talk.

After 5 weeks of this fun, WH buys a car with my help. He decides at this point to move back home and give it a try. We do not discuss boundaries. Needless to say, this "try" fails miserably and in 3 weeks he moves out again.

WH still works with OW. He claims there is no affair anymore, they are only work friends. However, they talk via IM's and on the phone at night all the time. She has told him that she only wants to be friends with him now, nothing more, too much drama to get past. Her H is divorcing her. That is in progress and should be final w/in next month or so.

WH now frequents AdultFriendFinders, AdultActionCams and has a subscription to Yahoo Personals. He pulled his ad off Yahoo and made in non searchable and only sends it when he contacts new women. I have no friendship anymore with 2 mutual friends that are his coworkers now. He's made sure of that. SIL no longer speaks to me. MIL is useless and only says she wants us both to be happy but will do nothing to help.

Oh, there was an anonymous person sending emails to me and WH for awhile. This person would tell me that WH and OW's affair was not over and they were still going to lunch, etc. Would also tell me about WH's Yahoo personals ad. Always seemed to have accurate info. WH insists it isnt' OW since he got an email from anonymous when OW was in his office once. I don't know.

Right now I'm lost. I tried Plan A. I'm trying Plan A. WH doesn't seem to care at all about me. When we are together it's strictly platonic unless I initiate further.

Sorry so long, but seemed like a good idea to just put it all in one place. If you want further details, you can read the posts I started - those are the ones that say it all when it was happening.

I really don't have time right this minute to respond apporpriately, so I will post later this evening on this. I want to do some thinking. Probably come up with nothing, but who knows.

I hope you have a good day.

ok, thanks. I know it's a lot of stuff to absorb. Any insight or help would be so very welcome at this point.

You lost your job over this? That just doesn't even seem right. Where as I am sorry you had an accident and got hurt, I am just dumbfounded that you lost your job.

I know that doesn't help in the least...



Your own issues? From the accident? or from something else?


have you verified any timeline for the beginning of the A? How long before the accident?


That sucks. Discovery. Worry. I am really sorry that you had to go through any of this.


And why would he be pissed? "You should have trusted me" will be the line.

"I wish you didn't check up on me doing crap behind your back" is the truth.


This is a WS response of survival. They are trying not to look like the bad guy here and as long as you don't 'know' anything (really... if they think you don't know) then they will try to carry on the lie. I have yet to hear of a WS on here talk about being pressed about an A and giving up the info on it as long as they 'thought' they still could get away with it.


Are his mother and grandmother enablers? You said that the mother stays out of it and hopes for the best. Do you know of anyone on his side of the family that is a 'voice of reason'? I ask because with him out in the open on this, it sounds like he needs a few of the right words from the right person(a family member) to help him set down his pride and deal with the pain he has caused and STOP causing more.



well of course he was angry. You ratted him out. Good for you that you did that to try to save your marriage. Maybe later, if you two are able to get into a recovery mode, he will see that for what it really is... you caring so much about your marriage you didn't mind humiliating YOURSELF to try and save it.


boundaries are important. Probably the most important. Life has boundaries. You just can't murder someone because there is a law against it. And if you do, there is a consequence. You need, and I mean need, to define boundaries for yourself and let him know you will not allow crossing of them without repercussions. Of course, you have to allow him room to make mistakes, but I never ever violated NC once established(and that was immediately) because she set it as a boundary and I followed it. You don't just have to take this crap. So, you have to make the hard decisions about your marriage and do you want to save it. Then decide what you are willing to put up with. I would classify contact as something I was not willing to put up with.



Ok.. he still works with her. Still talks to her. And she is becoming a single woman soon. All of this is a serious 'danger will robinson' to me. I am sure it is to you too. This is the kind of boundary you need to set and be firm. I had a job too. I gave it up(admittedly, after some discussion here) but the fact is, logistically spesking, I had a perfectly good job that supported my military career and I resigned. It came down to which was more important. My job. My wife. I was such a stupid a$$ for even pausing and fighting on that question.

Fact is, once you screw around with someone up at work, you lost your job already. I don't like being in the same area of the city as OW, so I can't imagine trying to work in that environment.

and.. the truth is the A will never die because it can continue simply be glances across the office. Then... next thing you know, bang. DDay again. No contact HAS to be upheld. It is the only way to be SURE. Just like abstinence was the only way to be SURE you didn't get pregnant in high school.


I wish I had the answer for all this part, but my first idea is to hire some guys to beat the ****** out of him. First he destroys you and then he starts acting single and crap in front of you. Probably thinks he is totally justified because you 'started it with the ratting him out'. Set boundaries. Make him know you won't stand for it. And be prepared to back them up. You can't control him... but you sure as ****** can control you.


what is initiate further? And how are you doing plan A? You are not going to look like the best option to him as long as he can get a fix from the OW at work. Sorry to say that and it may be harsh, but it is the truth. I know Plan A is about breaking up the affair.. but you are going to need to take action to get No Contact... because no matter how great you are at home, he can still see her anytime at work. Set a boundary. Be prepared to back it up. He can not just continue to see you both, unless you let him.


I hope some of this has helped. Maybe it hasn't, but a few really strong points are the NC agreement and finding a new job. It may seem impossible to him and you for him to get a new job, but your marriage will truly be hindered by continued contact.

And it is very dangerous for the BS, because with access to the OW, a foggy WS is bound to do anything.(you know.. I feel bad at home because I hurt her... but OW makes me feel good.... let me go get a fix)

I hope you are able to gain some sort of happiness soon.

Maybe it is time for plan B? If he is not responding to everything you have been doing. I mean how long can you plan A? He is getting a fix from 2 women what a better thing for him. 2 W wanting him. Just a suggestion. You have to do what you are comfortable with.

Patriot you have answered a major ? for me concerning my exWH.

My H was the same way and told me when I first found out that he forgave me!!!!!! I thought is was fog talk. But now see he was protecting himself and doing what he does best blame shifting. So stop the world - here is what I told my H - I said this needs to stop now. I am not to blame for what you have done. It is all yours and owned by you. I will not except that for one moment. You see if nothing else us BS do become the stronger of the 2.

I hope you are taking good care of you. Do you have family close. I hope you have recovered from the accident. Good luck.

Thanks Patriot and Realtor for responding.

First, the A started *after* the accident. That is definate. I told the MC I thought that was a precipitator (I can't think of the word I want at the moment so I hope you get my meaning) but MC glossed over it and moved right on to WH's current feelings and then he told me it's time to prepare for a clean break and to move on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I lost my job because I'm a contractor. I'm not a perm employee so I'm not covered by FMLA or STD or any of those nice things. Pay is good, but I don't have the legal standing that full time employees have.

Yes, my parents are in fact nearby so they helped me tremendously through all of this.

My issues had to do with recovery from the accident and a lot of emotional issues it brought up. I realized my own mortality and had a very real need to wrap some loose ends at that point. I've since done that and I'm satisfied with where things are related to that, but now my M is in the toilet because I wasn't able to support my WH when he really needed me.

I've given a lot of thought to Plan B. I tried it for a short while without giving him the formal letter, etc. It was so extremly difficult for ME that it didnt' last. I'm at a point now where I am feeling my self confidence again and I know that I had a good life before him, I will have a good life after him. While I would like for him to be ther with me, I cannot make him do what I want.

So what do you guys think? Should I go to Plan B? I'm so frustrated right now I could just spit. I'm tired of being disrespected. I'm tired of the "I don't know's" I'm tired of the avoidance. I feel like if he wants this, he needs to start doing some giving because I've shown that I care by sticking around and trying. Frankly, that's more than enough.

Course, I've been drinking tonight so I'm all full of courage. Who's to say how I'll feel tomorrow? But dammit, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of being the BS. I will not compete with OW. I have 10 years of experience on her and I have so much more to offer, if he can't see it, than screw him.

I vote for plan B. You can do it!

Stop -- from the way you describe him, your WH sounds like a full-blown sex addict to me. And Marriage Builders plans will not work on someone who is SA (or an addict of any kind.)

He's got much bigger problems than anything you can help him with. I hope you will do some research on sex addiction -- there are some very good books on the subject -- and I think you will see what you are really dealing with.

Good luck.
Mulan

Thats a rough deal about when the A started. I'm sorry for that.

Get rid of the MC and find another one that might think the M stands for "marriage". I have no idea what M stands for with this current one you are talking to.

No clean break. You have a wound and it must be cleaned and healed properly. You don't try to run a marathon on your leg that got shot without treating it, healing it and rehabing it... so you wouldn't do that with your M either. Find a better counselor. There has to be one somewhere around you. Be very picky. Froz and I had some bad experiences with an MC and it was SUCH a hinderance to recovery.

Contractor. Can or have you fixed the no job issue? That would be a good stress to fix before trying to test your very soul with recovery. Maybe you have or maybe you can't. Just wondering.

Glad to hear your parents were very helpful and supportive. Good for you.

Loose ends. Obviously still a private matter, and that is fine. I don't need to know. But assess it in how it might have affected your M. Not just from the amount of time it kept you away. What was it about... not meaning tell me. Meaning think about what it was about. Like if froz, due to her mortality realizations, decided to tie up loose ends with a former flame for some reason or another, I would have serious issues with this. I hope I have made the point. It is for you to assess and I don't need to know what it is. If you are satisfied that the subject of the 'loose ends' wasn't a fertile ground for his A, then fine.(That does not mean it was your fault at all... but it is possible for you to have sent him signals that then made him think he had justification. again... he didn't, but sometimes you have to think like the enemy to understand the enemy.)

Maybe it is time to consider plan b. You have tried plan a, although I don't know how well.. that is for you to decide, and it has not broken apart the A and created an NC environment. Might be time to take it to the next step. You have to save your sanity. You are a valuable person and worthy of love and compassion. You are also perfectly right to NOT want to stay in a situation that is destroying you. Stay away from thinking that just because you sticking around that it is enough. I mean you could be sticking around and LBing the crap out of him, and who wants to stay around for that? For very long? Sticking around and actually participating in the acheivement of a better, stronger marriage are not the same thing. You did say you were trying, and if you are(be honest with yourself) then great. All you can do is all the right things you can think of that stay within your boundaries. Try to discuss EN's with him. Try to get him to understand that without the truth you can not heal. Try to get him to get another job. Make your boundaries. Make sure he knows that you will not compete for him. Either you have already won because you are married to him, or the game is over and get out. None of this has to be communicated to him in anger. State your needs and wants. Don't tell him how much of an effing loser he is. (protect him, like you want him protecting you)

That is, until you make the determination that this is no longer something you will fight for. Then you make the decision to get out.

You do have an out. It is your choice. And if you make the choice to get out, MB principles really don't apply anymore. Not that it is license to spew hatred at him... but you don't have to work so hard at MB stuff anymore.

What he did was wrong. No denying that. He needs to own up to it and give you the honesty you seek. Your trust of him is in the toilet. He needs to recognize that.

He doesn't sound very remorseful. Is he? Or is he trying to compartmentalize the whole thing? Never talk about it. You probably answered this already...sorry

Maybe you could get an appointment with SH? I can tell you this will ALL honesty.

Calling SH turned stuff around in my house. Totally around.

It was great.

anyway... thoughts and words... hope I have helped

My train of thought works on this principle.
If you have decided to work on your marriage, then you are all in and making every attempt to stay away from the destructors of a good marriage(LBs, ignoring EN's) and you are responsible for your own actions in reference to that.

If you decide to not work on the marriage, then you are all out and MB principles don't apply.

No halfway. And the boundaries you set will decipher the mistakes to that end(great marriage) you are willing to accept. Do not make 'roving' boundaries. Set them. Lay out what you want. And if you don't get what you want or your boundaries are crossed, be prepared to back it up with action.

Have a good night, talk to you later

Doing the research could be great info.

I disagree with the assessment though. I think he is a WS who, once caught by his snooping, horrible, mean ole' wife who then tried to end his career by humiliating him to everyone he knows, is now trying to inflict more pain on her by tossing this in her face. The singles sites. The Yahoo personals. He is so oblivious to the pain he caused he is lashing out at her for his current pain(humiliation, messing with his extra-marital activities and so on).

It is a defense mechanism from compartmentalizing and blame-shifting. And it sucks for her, no doubt. He will have to stop for this to go anywhere. Open up his mind to the fact that HE is wrong and hurt her. He chose the A and it is in NO WAY her fault.

I disagree with the sex addict assessment. He didn't have an A until this year. Did he have some sort of porn addiction prior to the accident? Any red flags?

Mulan, I just disagree with your assessment based on her story, but I fully admit I may have missed an important bit of info. What did you see that brought you to that conclusion? I agree that if he is an SA, MB principles are not going to go far, because there is an issue that must be addressed before R can begin. So, please tell me what you saw, if you have the inclination. Thank you.

Mulan - Thanks for your reply. I will read up on SA but I don't think that's the case. I can't say for certain given that I haven't read up on it, but my gut says that's not it.

Patriot - Again, thank you. I think you are hitting the nail square on the head. "He is so oblivious to the pain he caused he is lashing out at her for his current pain" DO you think he's oblivious or do you think he's choosing not to see it?

Yes, I am LB'ng some now. I'm working on meeting his needs, the ones I've indentified: Conversation, Admiration, Attractive Spouse, SF(a little, not lots).

I have also started to notice that when I pull away, he's right there. I don't know that I'm explaining that right, but here's an example. We had made plans to get together on Friday night (dinner & a movie) and he knew he was going to be working a little late. I told him to call me and give me a heads up on when he had an idea of a time we'd meet. By 8pm, no call, no email, no nothing. I was angry, he never works that late so I figured he'd just blown me off. I called him on the cell and no answer. So I left a vmail that said if he didn't want to do something he shouldn't have made plans, no call no email was disrespectful and I don't appreciate it. He left me in a position to where I couldn't even make new plans for the evening with friends. Thank you very much. And I hung up.

An hour later I get a near frantic call from him saying he never heard his cell ring. He'd been home the whole time waiting for me to call him. He thought I was supposed to call him and he thought I blew him off. (Not sure I believe all this - he's good at turning things around) But we can get together now if I want? I said I didn't know, I was in a pretty bad mood and probably not good company. He said he was coming over anyway. So he did.

We ended up having a very long and serious talk that night. For the first time since d-day he admitted to part of him still loving me. Of course he fell back on saying that my attacks were so much like his exW and he fears that and that's why we have to get divorced.

I agree that MC would be beneficial for us IF we found the right one. Our old MC is now WH's IC, which I hate hate hate. The only good thing is insurance has a # of visit limit and he's about to reach it so that may help. The MC can go under my #.

Oh, I am working again and my issues mostly were regarding my family. It had nothing to do with finding old flames, etc. But I did ignore WH's needs during that time and focused only on me. That was where I helped create the environment for his A.

He keeps saying this marriage is an "obligation" for him and he can't focus on figuring out his future path with this always in his mind. Obviously this is babble, but I sure wish I could come up with a good reply.

He says he's sorry for what's happened, but he doesn't show it. He's not helping me get past it and that's what's so very hard.

Argh..I'm rambling...I feel like if I keep doing what I'm doing it's not going to work. I feel like something needs to change, but I don't feel that Plan B is what needs to happen - yet. (I know you think I should NW and I keep thinking about it, thanks for the kick in the butt - don't give up on me)