Who said KMEJ isn't welcome to post here ? I just asked why.

That statement may have given KMEJ the feeling that her situation is hopeless, so why bother.

I think it's a given that we would all like to see KMEJ take steps to move toward a healthy, happy life for she and her children.

We can't force her, though. It may take many, many times of hearing our words to reinforce that her situation isn't normal at all.

I understand your frustration, Bob, with her situation. I know you care.

I just don't want her to derive that her situation is hopeless. As a matter of fact, it is one of the more hope-FUL situations I've heard. When you hit rock bottom, you have nowhere to go but up.

I also understand that change is scary.

I want to seek out her H and make him fear me, as KMEJ fears him. Pathetic caveman behaviour from me I know.

I can't help it. Men such as him make me ashamed of my gender.

I just want KMEJ to realise that only BIG BRAVE AFFIRMATIVE actions works with bullies.

For a kind, smart lady like her to accept the crumbs off his table in fear as her lot in life infuriates me.

Sorry if It seems I am hard on KMEJ.

As long as you refrain from grunting and groaning while you toss KMEJ and her children over your shoulder after whacking her H with your caveman club, I think you'll be fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, you know it doesn't always take BIG BRAVE AFFIRMATIVE action to deal with a bully.

I dealt with mine by simply refusing to participate any longer. I didn't stand up to him. I just quietly snuck away. Not during the night, as Pep suggested, but in broad daylight when I knew he was going to be gone for only 45 minutes.

I had a plan in place.

KMEJ, I read a random line in a fiction book once that said "You can do anything if you've got a plan". I've always remembered that.

It took me a week to formulate and execute my plan to leave my abusive H, once I was ready.

KMEJ,

Just consider the possibility that he might not change, he might not care about how you feel -- and then think about what you need in order to take care of yourself and your children. But I wouldn't violate the POJA unless you have already gotten out.

And stay on MB.

Cherished

You said: "my FWH has been threatening divorce in every other breath it seems"

You asked: if "this is normal"?

My take: No. This method of "negotiating" is an intimidation tactic. It is not "normal" in the healthy working through problems sense of the term.

I don't know about your story, but from the response on this board it sounds as if you are in an abusive relationship and cannot find your way out.

The mere fact that you are here wondering if it is normal or not for your husband to say such things indicates that you have become accustomed to a level of abuse.

The fact that you ARE asking also implies that your sick sense tells you that it is not OKAY---as well as your sigature line.

As an aside, I think it was very healthy and helpful for BOB to pose his why are you posting question. You do need to ask yourself that. (Way to go Bob, shake her out of it. Encourage her to take a stand!)

Does that answer your question?

Now, I have a question for you.

Are you in an abusive relationship? Yes or No. I know what the people on the board believe, but what do YOU honestly believe in your own heart? Yes or no.

to be honest I do not know what to believe. When he loses his temper, or ignores me- yes- however there is also a very sweet and caring man that I see too, and then it leaves me wondering if I imagine it all- or if I provoked him or deserve to be treated that way. or perhaps he does not know that what he is doing is wrong, or perhaps does not notice a change in his behavior. however that could just be me trying to justify everything all over again.

KMEJ -

I have stayed out of this up to this point, because I have little experience with physical abuse, as well as I am the type to give in to my WW and turn the blame inwards on myself for everything. So I feel a little hypocritical about giving you advice in your sitch.

But you know the saying about the forest and the tress, right?

So take a look at your last post. You wonder if you imagine events, or it is your fault because you provoked him???

We are responsible for our actions, and by exenstion he is responsible for HIS actions...no matter the justification. I am sure in his mind - and he has since inserted this type of thinking into your mind - he thinks of his actions as unavoidable or justified due to provocation on your part. This is simply flawed thinking, and he needs help to re-orient his perceptions (I think Bob would like to help him with some re-orienting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

But seriously, no matter what is done to us, we ultimately make the choice whether to respond, and HOW to respond. So saying it is your fault that he abuses you is just blame shifting, and you are buying it hook, line, and sinker.

I believe everyone here wants the best for you...any harshness is the result of frustration, not animosity.

I know how hard it is to change, and how easy it is to think that "everyone just doesn't understand" and "my sitch is special". Trust me, I know of what I speak...go back and look at some of my earlier posts - I thought the very same.

Please listen to everyone here, and make a plan...then follow it.


TM

KMEJ --

My H broke my arm the week before Christmas. I had surgery a few days after Christmas, and I had a cast up past my elbow until the end of February, when I had another surgery and was put in a splint up past my arm until early April.

In mid-January, he brought home flossers -- little devices with floss at the end of them so that you can floss your teeth only using one hand.

I was touched, incredibly touched, by how caring and thoughtful he was to give me those flossers.

It might help if you just put down what he does that is positive for you and what he does that is not positive for you and compare the lists.

Positive: Brought home flossers
Negative: Broke arm

Hmmm...

Would that be a bit like your list?

Cherished

Cherished,

I'm really sorry (and I truly mean this)....but I have to ask you.....

You refer an AWFUL lot to your H's breaking your arm. Do you hold resentment for that? I would imagine I would...

But I also know resentment can be toxic to an M.

It seems to me (and again - only speaking for myself) that you are trying to find ways to 'forgive' him for his abuse. Not that you condone it, mind you.....but that you are seeking a way past it.

Personally, from what you have posted, it seems as if your H has not truly taken full responsibility for what he did. The only clue I have (and purely on intuition here) is that you still hold SO MUCH resentment for his breaking your arm.

Which in my opinion, is justified. There is NO WAY he should have physically hurt you. Just the same as there is NO WAY I should have had an A. But the difference is that I take FULL responsibility for my choice. And I have dug DEEP to understand why I did choose the A.

And even after almost 2.5 years after the A, I am still working on trying to better myself so that I am strong, and wouldn't make the same choice.

It would seem to me that you have 2 uphill battles....The A.....and the Abuse. Both A's if you will.

But it pains me to see you posting to KMEJ that she should understand that her H may not change....yet you do not apply the same advice to your H. Has the abuse really stopped? Or is it just that the physical abuse has stopped?

Your H does not like you on here, but you are here posting. If this was a POJA, then why is he not enthusiastic about you being on here?

I'm sorry, Cherished. You really do hold a special spot in my heart, because we share the (unfortunate) bond of abuse. But I still don't understand why you justify (or excuse) your H's past behavior (without him taking FULL responsibility for it - and blaming how he thought you were, is NOT taking responsibility).

Maybe I, like Lemmon, need to bow out of this thread. My problem is that I care for you as well as KMEJ....

You have been here longer than I, and you appear to still have not even gotten to an improvement point in your M. Only that he has not hit you in ????? time? But I don't see anything in your posts about how he takes responsibility for his A. And that's a completely other subject.

I guess the thing is....I would HATE to see KMEJ hope that her H will 'change' as yours has. Because even if he does not physically abuse her anymore....he is clearly still controlling her and emotionally manipulating her.

My H controlled and manipulated me. Did it justify my A? HECK NO! But whatever I did before the A certainly did not justify him controlling and manipulating me. And he did not want to change....at least in the M.

I almost feel like you are sending mixed messages to KMEJ....that she should 'hold on' because her H might change....yet later you will say that her H might not change.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what you are really trying to say to her.

Are you happy? Not happier than you used to be....but happy? Are you satisfied with your M? Are you happy about the way your kids are turning out?

God, I sound like a complete B, but I just really want to understand you, Cherished. I felt so proud of you when you stood up to your H, and realized what you wanted in an M. But I can't help but feel that you've shortchanged yourself.

I HATE even posting this.

L.I.T. --

I have one of your posts from the summer saved on my computer. The reason why I encourage KMEJ to post, and I post, is that we are missing insight that is obvious to almost anyone else we have the courage to tell, only those people tend to have a bias. My mother's view, for example, is "Throw the bum out." My mother in law's view is that I must have done something to provoke him.

My H is now traveling 5 days a week. It's close to a trial separation. We are going through the Love Busters course, having just completed lesson 1.

KMEJ, with my husband traveling, I have gotten the thought that it's like my stopping banging my head against a wall. It feels good.

Cherished

KMEJ,

Thanks for trying to answer my question about wheter you are in an abusive relationship or not.

The fact that you dont know whether or not you are in an abusive relationship explains why you have not acted upon the advice on the board.

I am insisting on this, because answering that question is crucial. Please go to the MayoClinic site and read on abuse.

Inform yourself. You sound like someone who wants to change your life--registering for school, getting your own job, etc. Knowledge is your weapon! Mayoclinic.com

After reading on the topic, please lets get back to my question. Are you in an abusive relationship?

I will be watching for your response.

P.S. After you have read the site, please go to your first response to my question. (Do you think it coincides with what the professionals describe as an abused state of mind?)

Ahuman....
I think what you are offering is the right path for kmej. Maybe someone to hold her hand and gently lead her to her own conclusions will be more helpful. It is obvious that the impatience of some along with blaming her for her kids future and the guilt being cast at her is not getting her out of the current situation.

I hope your method helps her!

KMEJ: You keep posting because you need what is offered here. And, sometimes it is all we have. You will figure this out and make the right decisions and it will be in the right time also. I have followed your threads for a long time. You will get it...hang in there.

I remember that dani was struggling for so long and people were also impatient with her. Said stuff like they wouldn't post to her anymore etc. Now, something has clicked and it is amazing the change in her posts! You can do this too! Keep you chin up.

KMEJ,

I dont know if you saw my last post awhile back, as you have not replied.

Have you gone to the Mayoclinic site?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/

To find the article: go to the search engine and type in abuse. The title of the article is "Recognize the patterns and seek help"....

[color:"blue"]okay this is creepy- did I write a report and not remember??? This can not be a typical thing. Here is some of what I read that has me knocked on my butt with how shockingly close it is.[/color]

[color:"red"]But anger is just one way that an abuser tries to gain authority. The batterer may also turn to physical violence — kicking, punching, grabbing, slapping or strangulation, for example. The abuser may also use sexual violence — forcing you to have sexual intercourse or to engage in other sexual activities against your will.
In an abusive relationship, the abuser may use varying tactics to gain power and control, including:

Children as pawns. Accuses you of bad parenting, threatens to take the children away, uses the children to relay messages, or threatens to report you to children's protective services.
Coercion and threats. Threatens to hurt other family members, pets, children or self.
Denial and blame. Denies that the abuse occurs and shifts responsibility for the abusive behavior onto you. This may leave you confused and unsure of yourself or make you feel like you're going crazy.
Economic abuse. Controls finances, refuses to share money, makes you account for money spent and doesn't want you to work outside the home. The abuser may also try to sabotage your work performance by forcing you to miss work or by calling you frequently at work.
Emotional abuse. Uses put-downs, insults, criticism or name-calling to make you feel bad about yourself.
Intimidation. Uses certain looks, actions or gestures to instill fear. The abuser may break things, destroy property, abuse pets or display weapons.
Isolation. Limits your contact with family and friends, requires you to get permission to leave the house, doesn't allow you to work or attend school, and controls your activities and social events. The abuser may ask where you've been, track your time and whereabouts, or check the odometer on your car.
Power. Makes all major decisions, defines the roles in your relationship, is in charge of the home and social life, and treats you like a servant or possession.
Have ever been hit, kicked, shoved or threatened with violence
Feel that you have no choice about how you spend your time, where you go or what you wear
Have been accused by your partner of things you've never done
Must ask your partner for permission to make everyday decisions
Feel bad about yourself because your partner calls you names, insults you or puts you down
Limit time with your family and friends because of your partner's demands
Submit to sexual intercourse or engage in sexual acts against your will
Accept your partner's decisions because you're afraid of ensuing anger
Are accused of being unfaithful
Change your behavior in an effort to not anger your partner


[/color]

So, I ask my question again:

Are you in an abusive relationship?

(I have to go now, but will be looking later.)

KMEJ - speaking as a daughter who grew up in a home like yours (abuse only - father never brought another woman into the mix - but the abuse was bad enough)

I begged my mom to divorce my dad. I watched him nearly kill 1000 pound cows with his hands and feet - I knew what he could do to my mother. I lived in fear any time she left the home while he was raging. One night he got into it with my full grown brother (because Mom had never made a stand against his violence - her implicit tolerance of it allowed Dad to continue on his violent streak unchecked), put his elbow through a glass door - I ran and hid in the car least likely to be used to run to the hospital because I couldn't stand the sound.

You never know how bad it gets until it's too late to run. If they've beat you up in the past, and are not ACTIVELY making amends every living breathing second for the rest of their lives, it can and WILL happen again. You just don't know when. And you don't know the true impact it has on your children - you have boys - do you want them to treat their wives like your husband treats you?

Take a stand - no matter how fearful you are. Your sons NEED you to do this.

Ahuman
To answer your question as simply as I can, after reading that, Yes, I guess I am.

KaylaAndy- I hear what you are saying, and I want my boys to grow up to be strong and sweet and compasionate and caring, the problem is I do not think either my H or I are worthy of these boys, they are so great, and deserve better then what they are getting right now.

KMEJ,

YEAH!!! Coming to that conclusion is your first REAL step to getting out of the situation you are in.

The MB site--although terrific in many ways and a good support system for you--is not designed to address abusive relationships (or that abuse OTHER than an A, that is).

I am not saying dont come here for support--you certainly should! But, in addition to this site, what other resources are you tapping into to address your situation?

I guess maybe none, if you have just realized that is what is going on.

Here is a site with some suggestions to start with:
http://dmoz.org/Health/Mental_Health/Psychological_Abuse/

Often this type of situation needs professional intervention, so please dont fall into the trap of thinking it will just pass-by with some reading.

Also, it is normal to go through cycles of good days and bad days, please dont fall into the trap of believing that it isnt abusive if the abuse is not ever present....this is probably what has made you hang on for so long.

Oh, and thinking that you are not worthy of your boys is exactly the type of mentality an abused person could have. You are not only worthy--but from what I read on here you have many strengths.

I challenge you to reach into your strengths and save your boys and change your situation!

Using my best Edna Mode voice:

Pull Yourself Together. You are KMEJ - and your children need you, whether you feel worthy of them or not! God entrusted them to you so step up and take it on!