Last Apr was first DD. My WH told me he was having EA with a woman who works for same law enforcement agency. They don't work together per se (she works in a different building, and in a different capacity - so they do not normally come in contact with each other). He told me he ended it, and we began MC. (Turns out he never really did end it)

July was 2nd DD. He said for the last 3 mo. he wasn't even sure if he wanted to try to save our marriage, so he continued the A (because they still loved each other, and he didn't want to lose her in case our marriage didn't work out) This time he said he had decided that he did want to save our marriage, and he did end it by phone (I watched - There were a lot of tears and pain) MC continued - & he promised to not have any contact with the OW and to tell me if he did.

Just 2 days ago (2+ mo. later) was 3rd DD. I caught him at a hotel with the OW. She started calling my H because she found out I had ordered an online phone records search and "didn't know what to do". She wanted to file a police report against me, but didn't want to hurt my husband's reputation by exposing their A at work. He said the first few calls were impersonal, but since we were still having communication problems and arguing a lot, he eventually told her about how he still wasn't happy - & then he was hooked again. (I finally got him to take the EN Questionaire, & he identified Conversation as #1) He says they've talked about a dozen times, and have seen each other briefly about 5 times in the last 2 mo. - but no sex until 2 days ago. He told her he thought he was only about 2 weeks from leaving me because we just can't communicate and argue too much - and that he just can't take the stress this is causing him. (He had told me this several times)

I was prepared to tell him to leave after this last time, but I just couldn't. I love him and feel it's my job to protect our M. and HIM from his self-destruction. He has personal issues from childhood (incl. very low self-esteem) and a sexual addiction problem that he finally says he wants help for in IC. He is trying to make his first appt. and says he definitely wants to save our marriage, but he thinks he's "addicted". He says he is willing to not have contact with OW "for life", IF we can stop arguing and he can get his communication needs met at home. He says he is willing to write a follow up letter to end their A. We both decided to not do or say anything we might regret until we both go to IC for advice.

Problems:

1. He can't quit his job. He has 23 years on police dept. Because she works for same dept., they will always have access to each other's work cell-phone # and work location, job hours info, etc. Even if changed, the #'s are published internally, and I cannot access phone records on EITHER of their work cell-phone #'s (confidential/law enforcement)

2. Although he can avoid contact with her if he wants to, there will undoubtedly be times where "accidental" contact can occur (i.e. work-related functions, promotions/award ceremonies, etc.)

3. Both of them have the freedom to leave work and/or meet during work hours if they want.

4. The OW has absolutely no guilt or remorse about their A. I contacted her after this last DD and asked her to stop seeing my H, that we were trying to work on our M & that I felt she owed me an apology. She basically said that she doesn't owe me anything, and she took no responsibility for her participation, saying this is all "between you and him". When I said we were trying to work on our M, she said "Then why does he keep calling me? If he wanted you, he wouldn't give me the time of day". She even called me the next day (and also tried to reach my H at home). My H had told her to not call him because he wanted to go to IC for advice first and needed time alone to "sort things out". When I told her to stop calling and leave us alone because we were trying to work on our M, she said "yeah right... sure you are". She is the most cold-hearted person I've ever spoken to. I don't see what My H sees in her. He says he's never seen that side of her, and he doesn't seem very "phased" by what I told him she said. He only sees the OW he loves, that he can talk to so easily about anything. (By the way, she separated from her husband shortly after she met my H - I'm sure she wants my H to leave me for her) Due to her attitude, I'm sure there's no way she'd be willing to quit her job. And since she knows "communication" is our problem, I'm she's doing her best to meet that need.

How do you communicate on a friendly, loving, "normal" level when there's so much hurt, distrust and questions due to HIS A? (It's so hard, and seems so fake!) If he engages in LB's, or breaks our agreements, or doesn't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, and I try to call him on it in as nice/respectful way I can, he still gets angry and then blames me for starting an argument. It's like I can't win... (I do plan to bring this up in my IC)

What should I do next? Should I just wait and see what our IC's say? (My 1st appt. with my IC is tomorrow) I doubt very much that the OW will honor my H's request for no contact, even if he writes her a letter. What should HIS plan be if she doesn't? What should MY plan be if I catch my H in contact with the OW again? How should he handle the work-related contact issues? (Should that be addressed in the NC letter?)

Those of you with experience in these areas - PLEASE HELP!

Sadlinda, it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too! You want to know how to do the impossible. You are asking how your H can cut off contact with the OW and stay.....in contact.. at the same job. You are asking how to end an affair without doing any of the important footwork, such as exposure. All so that there will be no sacrifice, of course.

You have seen the result with your own eyes. If you want years more of the same, then your H can keep his job. If you want years more of the same, just continue as you are doing by hiding their dirty secret for them. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Here is what Harley says about that:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Sadlinda,

It is not your job to protect him from the consequences of his behavior. In fact, if you really truely love him, you will stop standing between him and consequences.

As long as he has no consequences, he'll never have motivation to change.

There will never be a point where he will just wake up and see all these sacrifices and be head over heels in love with you. All you are doing is fueling his sense of entitlement to do as he pleases.

What do you need and want in your marriage?

Hello Sadlinda - A couple of points - you MUST expose the A. Do you have any friends in the police department where they work? If so, tell them. If not, tell their supervisors. Heck, tell them anyway. I am sure that the administration would be very interested to hear how department issued equipment is being used to carry on an A. This will be daunting at first, but you must do it.

Stung

WOW! It sounds like everyone is recommending exposure. But is that ALWAYS the best answer? I DO believe in no contact for life, and I will be adamant about the letter I want my WH to send the OW that will be clear about this. We will be discussing this at our next MC appt.

But... I know WH will resent it if I expose at work. He will see it as merely "revenge" that will serve no useful purpose. If I DO expose, then what's left as incentive to stop seeing the OW and rebuild our marriage? He won't have anything left to lose, right?

He WILL NOT leave his career. He's only 5-6 years away from retirement. And it IS very easy to avoid the OW if he wants to. She works in a totally separate building and there are only very rare occasions that he MIGHT need to go there during the time she works. In order for contact to occur, it would need to be arranged between them (pretty much the same as if they had different jobs in the same city). The only things is that they MIGHT see each other at a work-related function, like I said (promotion ceremony, etc.) His job reputation is the only thing that gives him any self-esteem. I fear I might be cutting my nose off to spite my face if I expose at him at work. Besides, the dept. will see this is a "private" matter and will not interfere. Another reason to NOT expose, is that if I do, I'm sure the OW will follow through with her IA investigation threat against me (using her personal info to order online phone records search)... I could lose my job over that. (I ALSO work on same police dept.)

What exactly would the compelling REASONS be to expose in my case?

I already did expose to the OW's husband (they are separated). I felt he had the right to know why perhaps his efforts to reconcile with the OW have failed. I also hoped that perhaps if he told the OW's family, they might have some influence over her to tell her that what she is doing is wrong... But he says fat chance - they're just as bad as she is. But he did appreciate me telling him. He IS on the department... so word may spread anyway. After I did, SHE called me and said that my exposure accomplished nothing - that they have been split for 14 months and were NOT working on reconciling anyway.

Update:

After my WH called the OW and told her to stop calling him, he DID tell me that she called him back twice to see if he's "OK". He said the last time he is pretty sure she won't call him again - he made it clear that he doesn't want contact and wants to pursue IC and work on our marriage. Although I fear he didn't make clear the "work on our marriage" part... I fear it was more like "I need help in IC to decide what I want to do, and you're distracting me - so leave me alone FOR NOW". That's why I'm going to be adamant about the "no contact for life - I love my wife and want to save my marriage, etc." follow-up letter.

I am in need of advice for what I can still do if I DONT want to expose any further for now, and he continues at his current job. Is there absolutely no hope? My WH shared with me that even the OW told him during their "last" phone call (this morning) that he needs to work on himself first (in IC) before he can work on anything else, and that she feels he is somewhat the source of his own unhappiness (which is exactly the same thing I have been telling him - but I get the feeling it means more coming from the OW)...

He says he will tell me if she calls again. I told him if that happens, I want us to both come up with a plan on how to resolve the issue together. He also says that if he needs to go to her building, he will do his best to avoid seeing her.

My gut instinct tells me to lay low until he gets some IC under his belt.. and that maybe it will knock some sense into him. Has this worked for anybody? Are there some steps I can take given my situation that could still result in a positive outcome? Or am I deceiving myself... and if so, exactly WHY, WHAT do YOU who have gone through this experience think needs to be done and WHY?

HELP!

Well, what you can do if you don't expose and they continue to see each other at work is get used to a long term, on again, off again affair. You should learn acceptance of another woman in your marriage, because you will need it. We have some folks here didn't expose, just like you, and their spouse's affairs are still ongoing [one for 4 years that I know of, her H is now leaving her for the OW] and another went for 10 years [his W eventually ended the affair].

Essentially, the affair will become a way of life for you. Your marriage will never recover because your H cannot ever withdraw from the OW, so every time he sees her puts him back to day 1 of recovery. And every time he sees her, puts YOU back to day 1 of recovery.

About the worst thing you can do, just behind helping him hide his affair, is follow your "gut instict" about this. You will find that your instincts about resolving this affair are mostly wrong and will lead you the wrong way.

What exposure does is ruins the affair by causing great conflict and embarrassment in the affair. Having to explain an affair forces the affairees to see how silly and sleazy they look through the eyes of others. This ruins the fantasy aspect that allows the affair to thrive. And that is because affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy. Exposure ruins all that. That is why exposure hastens the end of the affair. It will be much harder to carry on an affair at work if everyone knows about it. This is why Steve Harley, of Marriage Builders, recommends "doing everything short of taking out a billboard."


Of course he will resent it. Just like a crack addict "resents" it when you take away their crack. But it is not the resentment that will kill your marriage, it is the AFFAIR. You should be afraid of the AFFAIR, not some short term resentment.

"says he definitely wants to save our marriage, but he thinks he's "addicted."

Oh my goodness, a WS that at least realizes that he is not "in love".

You need to realize that the biggest threat to your marriage is not exposing them at work.

Actually, he does feel he "loves" her. And he has all kinds of reasons why our M isn't working & hasn't worked for a long time that have nothing to do with the A.

Thank you and I'm listening, but I'm so afraid to expose at work. He will use this as the biggest "reason" to leave me. He will say it served no purpose but revenge and to make him look bad - and that I had no right to do that when he was really trying this time (thru IC and agreeing to send the OW a "no contact for life" letter).

He also asked me to not contact/bother the OW or her H again. I told him I had no intention of doing so, because I knew this would just give her a reason to contact him again.

He also asked me if I had told our 15 yo daughter about all this. (She only knows we are not getting along and going to MC because he was cheating on me/past tense) I said "no - there's no reason to tell her unless we end up separating" He said "is that a threat? There's no reason to tell her even if we do separate - it's none of her business" I know he would hold it against me if I intentionally did something to make his kids "hate" him. (I know, I know... it's what HE did - But telling them would be on me)

Are these red flags or reasonable requests, given that he says he's really ending it "for good" this time. At this point, is full exposure something I should threaten if I find out they are still in contact? And only if I'm prepared to separate?

And what about the OW's threat to pursue the police report and internal affairs investigation against me because of using her personal information to order an online phone records report? I could lose MY job, and she would lose nothing (except her self-respect, of which she has none anyway).. and gain my H!

What logical reasons can I give my WH that will explain:
1. How continuing the A will negatively impact our marriage saving efforts (he says the A has nothing to do with our relationship problems)
2. How exposure will save our marriage (rather than just be "revenge")

Thank you for your continued HELP! What would you do in my shoes?

SadLinda, they ALL threaten to leave if exposed. This is a threat designed to keep you from ruining his affair. We hear it on here every day. And it works in silencing naive spouses!! However, they don't leave, it is an idle threat. Even if they did, they were intending on leaving anyway. If they wanted to stay, wild horses couldn't drag them away.

There are NO logical reasons you can give your H to explain exposure, because a person who is in an affair uses no reason. You should liken him to a falling down drunk, in that he is an addict in the throes of an addictive affair. You wouldn't try to reason with a drunk, would you? There is nothing you can say that will make him happy about ruining his affair. Just like there is nothing you can say to a drunk that would make him happy about losing his bottle of Jack Daniels.

Just the fact that your H doesn't seem to understand that an affair will negatively impact a marriage should tell you that he is in the twilight zone and uses no reason.

I already explained how exposure saves marriages, so I won't go into that again.

A 15 year old should not be lied to in order to cover up for your husband's sleazy affair. Protecting him from the consequences of his bad behavior only enables his affair, Linda. You have become his enabler by helping him hide his affair, even lying for him to your own daughter.

And yes, you have every reason to be afraid. But you are afraid of the wrong thing. You should fear the affair, not the steps that could lead to the end of the affair.

"Actually, he does feel he "loves" her. And he has all kinds of reasons why our M isn't working & hasn't worked for a long time that have nothing to do with the A."

Ho-hum, where have we heard this (a thousand times) before?

I certainly DO NOT want to enable his affair... I just don't want to be rash and make a big mistake. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing, given my particular circumstances. MelodyLane, thank you for the explanations and analogies - my confusion is slowly but surely being replaced with clarity.

I have more questions I'm hoping you (and especially any recovered WS's out there) can help me with.

#1. Dr. Harley's info on the site doesn't speak much about when the WS is the one holding all the resentment about the past. (From the Q&A letters, it seems that usually it's the BS that's resentful, and the WS feels guilty and wants to save the M) Does this happen much? Also, since this all started, my WH has been saying that communication is our big problem... We do have issues but I think they aren't anything that can't be fixed if we BOTH put in the effort. I have a feeling he might be blowing these things out of proportion in order to justify the A in his mind. I also think he's been doing and saying things to start arguments (albeit perhaps subconsciously) - which then reinforces his dissatisfaction with our M, thus justifying the A. Does any of this make sense?

#2. My question is... will he begin to look at things differently after about a month of no contact? (Could it take longer?) Will he start to want to make more of an effort to fall back in love with me? Will his resentment about the past and our communication problems not seem like such an unsurmountable obstacles to his happiness?

If this is true, maybe that will give him incentive to really commit to no contact. But is it true?

#3. Also, did individual/personal counselling help any of you WS'S to "see the light"? If so... how?

#4. I know what I want and I'm willing to stand up for it, but I'm just not prepared at this time to expose at work. Do you think I should still expose to family/friends? Are you sure its good to intentionally cause our own children to feel badly about their father? Somehow this doesn't seem right. Please be patient with me... I HAVE been listening. I guess I just still need to hear some more good reasons to be convinced)

#5. What other steps can I take? What did you do? Tell me your story (especially if it has a happy ending)!

#6. Also, (VERY important) what's your advice on important things that should be included in the "no contact for life" letter to the OW - And since there IS a possibility of contact due to the work situation... should there be specifics in the letter addressing those situations?

P.S. I didn't exactly lie to my daughter. I told her what I believed at the time, which was that yes Dad did make a mistake (cheated on me), but we are working on it in counselling. I just didn't tell her the additional details about that I found out the A was continuing! She is the love of his life and he would do ANYTHING to protect her from pain... (Hey! Maybe I could use that to my advantage somehow... any suggestions? hehe)

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERTISE AND ADVICE!!!! (It helps so much to hear from others who have already been through this and get feedback on what has worked for you!)

SadLinda,

I responded to you on another posting, so bear with me if I am repeating myself.

My FWH and OW also work for same PD (she is an office supervisor), but my FWH has his own office in another building. It has been almost 3 years since DDay. It would be financial suicide for FWH to quit and OW's been there 20 years, too, so she's not quitting. So, I have had to deal with the potential for easily renewed C.

As I told you, I have saved exposure for any sign of C, no matter how small. I have many reasons for not exposing the A, some of which are selfish, but I didn't even find out who OW really was until 3 mos after DDay. In our case, OW is married with 4 children (2 still at home). They had an agreement that the A was over if either of their spouses ever found out because they had no intention of divorcing. As I understand it, you don't want to expose the A, primarily because of the OW's phone records you pulled, right? I can understand that. It was my understanding of MB that exposure was to put pressure on the WS/OP to end the A. I didn't have to do that.

That said, I did want to share with you some of the things that made me feel more secure during recovery:

1. FWH calls me all the time while he is at work. He NEVER used to. Just to say "Hi, I was thinking of you", to tell me he was leaving his office to go somewhere, etc. If I call his office and he isn't there, I can call his cell and he almost always answers. To me that is a BIG deal because he was never accountable for his whereabouts before.

2. Like #1, he is totally accountable for his whereabouts and this is voluntary. Otherwise, I would have to have to give him the third-degree.

3. I am allowed to check up on him anytime I want, without him getting upset. I can check his cell phone, voice mail, email, etc. I have checked up on him before, with and without his knowledge.

4. After DDay, we made MAJOR changes in our relationship. We followed MB, spending almost all our free time together, and made our marriage #1 priority for the first time ever. One of his EN was to have a recreational partner, and I made sure I did all the things he liked, baseball games, I went to all his softball games, etc.

All the things above were equally important in the beginning of recovery. As recovery has progressed, I sense a real bond that wasn't there before. We have been through a lot the past three years, in addition to recovery, that's helped. Although meeting each other's EN is important, I felt it was more important that I really focus on his because I truly believe that's the main reason he had the A. Just knowing he was 100% there for me, was kind, caring, affectionate, and loving was enough for me.

As for IC, I was in IC before DDay (for other things, and it was a lifesaver!). I encourage it, though it is really hard to find good a good therapist. Mine was great for me, but not really good for our M, I felt after several months. After that, we did fine for about a year or so, then we found a MC when I hit a real rough patch in recovery. We went a few times together, then I went alone for a few months, and FWH also went alone a few times, then we went together for a few months. This went on for 6-7 months, up until this past Spring. She used our personality profiles to coach us on how best to understand the other. I always accepted FWH how he was, but I never felt accepted by him because I am so different. It was really eye-opening for FWH and I feel like he accepts and understands me and my perspective now.

As far as your DD goes, be careful about exposing to her. I don't feel it makes you an enabler to shield her from the truth. In our case, our kids did find out (our arguing, my crying, etc was unusual). Our older DD was 16 and our younger DD was 14 then. DD#1 did fine with it, but DD#2 who is more sensitive and closer to her Dad, didn't handle it as well. Six months after DDay, FWH's dad died, then her best friend betrayed her, and the usual high school drama sent her into counseling a year post D-Day because she had began cutting herself (just scratches, but they call it cutting). She was fine within 6 months, but I was very angry at FWH about it since his A was the main issue for her.

I'm sorry this is so long. I wanted to address the issues I felt would help you. Keep me posted on your progress!

P.S., we didn't do a NC letter (didn't know about MB then), FWH called her after DDay to break it off. I believe there has been no voluntary contact since then. About 18 mos ago, they did run into each other at work (no talking) and FWH told me about it. That's our agreement, he has to disclose it if he hears from her or sees her at any time.

Also, FWH did FINALLY talk (apologize) to DD#2 about the A, just a week or so ago. I never thought he would, he would start to cry at the thought of it. He told her he made a promise to himself last May that he would talk to them both within 6 months about it and he was going to talk to DD#1, too. DD#2 told me she feels less angry at her Dad now.

Sad Linda, I would refer you again to Dr. Harley's experience and professionalism. He is the pro here and has salvaged one or two marriages in his career. Here are his words:

[/b]

Dr. Harley is absolutely right. In my years on this board I can attest to the fact that staying in contact with the OP is one of the worst mistakes one can make. We have several cases on this board that did not end contact and the affairs have been on again, off again for years. Every time your H sees the OW will put him back to day 1 of recovery, and it will do the same for you. It is almost impossible to monitor his activities at work, so you will have to rely on the word of a liar and otherwise hope and wonder. Most folks would prefer not to live a life of such ******.

So, even though nay-nay can claim to have made this work, I can only emphasize that hers is the rare exception. Sure, some people can play Russian Roulette and live to tell the story, but that doesn't mean that RR is a safe or smart practice.

Dr. Harley on writing a no contact letter [in person is not recommended, because no contact means just that]:

"How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

MelodyLane and SadLinda,

I certainly don't mean to dismiss or underscore the importance of Dr. Harley's NO CONTACT. Unfortunately, being in the situation we are in (and thereby understanding your position SadLinda), FWH quitting his job isn't an option we can explore at this time. I am not suggesting this for others, I am simply sharing what has worked for us, without making any "claims." If FWH were to actually be a co-worker of OW or even see each on a regular basis, that would be different. While the temptation to contact the OP might remain for some, the sad fact is that you can only control so much. I don't really consider that Russian Roulette. Even if you changed jobs and moved across the country, with today's technology you can locate almost anyone if the desire is there.

Today's technology does not change his point,[there were phones then and there are phones now] that there is a huge risk added with working with the OP and anyone can see that. There is no job that "can't" be quit, none of us are indentured servants. If you go to work every day and see a continual reminder of that person, there is no need to "locate" that person at all. Nor is withdrawal ever likely to take place. The OP is right there all the time, which prevents withdrawal from ever taking place.

That is about as smart as sending a recovering alcoholic into a bar every day and telling him he can't drink. Is the alcholic more likely to recover sitting in the bar testing his will every day or he is more likely to recover as far away from the drink as he can get? He can still "locate" a beer even if doesn't go to the bar but his chances of successful withdrawal are much more likely if he doesn't have to look at and smell beer all day long.

He sits there all day and sees and smells the drink. He is obsessed with taking that drink and thinks of nothing else. He can't get it out of his mind because it is never out of his sight. When the inevitable weak moment hits, he is drinking again.

The bottom line is that, Linda, is that contact doesn't work and will make your life ****** wondering about contact every day. And you can't check up on him at work, you can only rely on the word of a liar. Don't damn yourself to such an existence. Don't play Russian Roulette with your life. You will live to regret the easier, softer way; that is, if you are even able to bust up this affair without exposing it.