Yeah, honesty is the best policy... right. But saying too much can be "too much" at the wrong time.

Karona mentioned it in her recent thread, about the guy just trying to be honest about his thoughts and feelings about her, but it scared her. I also opened my big mouth on a second date with my recent 4-wk R, and said, in context of stuff we were talking about... "I haven't stopped thinking about you".... NOT MEANING I was in love or obsessed, but just that I saw potential and wanted to see him again, and see where things could go for us. But it was worded incorrectly, and came out wrong, I suppose, and probably scared him to death.

Then, there's someone else I dated twice, and then a couple of days later when I told him I was going out with someone else, in addition to continuing to see him, he freaked out becuase he really liked me and didn't want me to see anyone else. But he had not SAID anything along the lines of liking me... had not expressed himself.... had NOT complimented me.... or made me feel like he saw potential in the R... until he saw that there was a chance of losing me.

Then... there's another side to this.... of being really good at "dating".... or reading people... or simply being good at meeting others' needs... and the question of saying what they want to hear. Or is it OK to say things NOT for manipulation, but to meet their needs in the R at the time. Maybe ... saying things that we don't really feel, but is what the other person wants to hear at the time... so they feel comfortable. I dunno... something like "I don't want to rush you. I want to give you plenty of space. If you only want to go out one night this week, that is fine with me." .... when you really want to see them more than once. (just an example) or.... stretching the truth about something (saying you like something but you really don't... or saying it's OK that they forgot to call you but you're really po'd.... or saying that something in their past doesn't bother you but it really does).

What do you think?

[color:"blue"]Faith,

I think you can be honest and still stop short of TMI.

I think the idea of dating is to find someone that easily meets your most important ENs, and that you find easy to meet theirs.

I don't think it is manipulative to recognize and meet their ENs if you are serious about them. How many women cook for a man hoping the DS is a need? Even before harley women have been cooking for men...

I've found through experience that the ones that are good at respecting boundaries are also good at accepting a boundary. So I don't see anything wrong with quietly stating in a respectful manner an annoyance when you are po'd. (I was hurt last night that you didn't call when you said you would.) See how he responds - it will tell you a lot about the man. Once you've started setting boundaries you see if the man is respectful of them, ignores them, is angered by them - whatever. It is very telling of his character and what you can expect from the relationship.

V. [/color]

How you say something is just as important as what you say. Were a woman to tell me on a second date that she hadn't stop thinking about me, alarm bells would go off. Is she trying to pay me a compliment or is she obsessional and moving way too fast? My choice would have been something along the lines of "I really enjoy your company and am happy you asked me out again."

I've read this idea that you meet a new potential love interest's emotional needs a few times. You should do nothing of the sort beyond some of the basics like conversation and companionship. These are not needs that one "tries" to meet.

Always subject yourself to a daily reality check. If you are thinking about your interaction with someone with whom you have had only two dates as a "relationship," you are not thinking realistically. I can assure you that no man is considering himself in a relationship with you after two. If he is, run away from him as fast as you can, because there can only be two reasons for this: 1) he's manipulating you for sex, or 2) he is not emotionally stable.

Faith,

What you are saying here, is exactly what this guy was saying to me I believe.
Do I think he was crazy wild about me? NO!
He was honest, and I believe wanted to explore the possibities as far as I was concerned. He did seem eager to put his heart out there, and I was concerned for him in that regard, but that's apparently is just who he is.

I don't think it's as much about you or this guy as much is it might be about myself or your guy, and where we are in our journies.

I don't think you or my date should change your behavior.
Honesty is a wonderful quality!

As far as the wishy/washy ques concerning a date, I don't think that's our best route either. I think we would be miserable if we tried to be all pleasing with phone calls or dates, when in fact we do indeed care.

I think your on the right track, stay honest. Maybe if I had heard something like, I'm really enjoying getting to know you and enjoy your company..... I wouldn't have gotten so weird, but again, it's where I'm at, not all would respond the way I did.

K!

It's not a good idea to tell someone what they want to hear. First, you're never sure what it is that they want to hear, and secondly, when do you start telling the truth once the precedent is set?

I think you're right Faith. There is such a thing as "too much" at the wrong time.
You do need to hold back somewhat.

I've had guys "freak me out" and I'm sure I've done that to them here and there.

Sometimes its recoverable -- I spend a few days a little freaked and then calm down and get OK with it. Other times it will change the course of the relationship.

My opinion: its OK to withhold but not OK to lie.
I certainly don't want someone telling me what I want to hear, just to get another date. I want to be given the opportunity to make my choices on ACCURATE information.

Ditto to what Lexxxy said.

M, whom I am dating exclusively at the moment, has a history of being attracted to the "bad boys".

In one of our recent discussions she said that for all their faults, one of the things she likes about the BBs is that she more or less knew where she stood with them. She knew that (apart from what they said to get her in bed) they really didn't tell her things because they thought that was what she wanted to hear. They didn't particularly care what she wanted to hear, they said what they said because it was what they wanted. They approached the relationship from a strong TAKER perspective.

GIVERS (Nice Guys) on the other hand, she believes, DO tend to bend the truth. They cater to what they believe to be her expectations in order to obtain what it is that they want from her. It is a manipulation of sorts. So, in her worldview, all guys are "bad boys", its just that the Nice Guys are better liars.

She has said to me that her biggest fear is that I will tell her what she wants to hear. And I have to confess, it is hard for me not to do it. As a classic GIVER in a relationship, it is very difficult for me to tell her something that I believe she won't like. I am one of those who don't like to hurt other people's feelings.

Radical Honesty is very hard for a GIVER.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

So, honesty is important, but the amount, and the delivery has to be calibrated according to the situation. whew! It's kindof a shame that the success or failure of a relationship in its early stages can hang on THIS skill, rather than the qualities of the people themselves, and the honesty being shared.

One thought I'm having today, perhaps in response to Allurin's recent dilemma, is that further stages of dating calls for increasing amounts of honest communication and sensitivity for meeting each others' needs. Knowing when and how to turn that up, is difficult. Maybe that's what *I* mean when I say "I don't like to play games".... I just wanna be real... like a real relationship... this is how I *am* in a relationship.. you're getting a snapshot of what you're gonna get... you either like me or not. Those beginning stages of getting to know someone, and respecting that space, and knowing how much to hold back is so hard. hmmmm.... It always helps me to remember the analogy of the rose blooming. You can't force the petals open. You have to wait for them to open on their own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Check,

"I really enjoy your company and am happy you asked me out again."

Yes. That's what I meant. Even though it was true I had been thinking about him a lot.... SAYING it out loud is not a good thing.

Karona,
hmmmm... I agree honesty is VERY important. In the first stages, however, I'm trying to grasp at how much is too much.... or probably more accurately, maybe the delivery is just as important, if not more important. I'm much better with writing than on-the-spot oral communication, because I have more time to carefully choose my words, and review them for "red flags" before they are already in the listeners' ears and have done their damage! I have a faulty filter between my honest brain and my tongue. LOL I guess we ALSO have to be forgiving as the listener, and realize when people are just being honest with their thoughts and feelings, even though they don't come across they way we'd WANT them to. And watch for consistencies in their words and actions before making judgments about their true intentions... and where their heart is... and where their emotional stability is. ???


TBG:
Your last post, IMO, can be answered yourself in the post above. I'll put the main points here:

Problem:

Answer:

Some people fall into this trap because they are not being honest with themselves about what they want... or who they are... or where they *need* to be. Someone may think they can live with one thing, and say they can live with it, and at some point have to face reality.

Well... just some thoughts. I'd love to hear more from ya'll.

Hugs,
Faith1

[color:"blue"]Excellent point. Wonder how you "get" someone to be honest with themselves?

V. [/color]

TBG, I cannot agree that givers bend the truth. While giver may fall into the trap of telling someone what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear, I don't think we can put a blanket description of inherent dishonesty on them.. Takers, on the other hand, because they only care about themselves, will not hesitate to lie to get their way.

I tend to be a giver, but I don't tell my FWB only what she wants to hear. She tells me that the difference between me and most men she's been involved with is that I do not shy away from telling her things she needs to hear and that this keeps her honest with herself. There've been a couple of times when her first reaction to something I've said has been irritation or anger, but after she's thought about it for awhile, she always tells me that, while what I said stung, it is nonetheless the truth, and that I'd given her exactly what she needed. She says that she has learned that if her mind immediately rebels at something I say, she needs to stop and think about it very carefully, since the rebellion is a sign that I've touched on something she's been actively avoiding and that the rebellion is an inappropriate defense mechanism.

There are times, however, when I do and should tell her exactly what she wants to hear. She is currently undergoing a supervised weight loss program. She's just now got to the stage where her weight loss is noticable, but just barely so. So when she asked me the other evening if I could tell that she'd lost weight, I ecouraged her by telling her that I could. It wasn't a complete fabrication, but there would have been no point in, and indeed it would have been a disservice to her, had I answered her with "no, not really." As hard as she has worked, and inasmuch as she is getting results, she needed affirmation and encouragement. Now, had she not been sticking to her diet and exercise program and hadn't met her goals, I would have been "radically honest" with her about that.

"Wonder how you "get" someone to be honest with themselves? "

You don't. This is something they have to do for themselves. If someone isn't honest with him/herself, he/sh cannot be honest with you. You can point out to them when they are not being honest with themselves and it's up to them to take action.

"I'm much better with writing than on-the-spot oral communication, because I have more time to carefully choose my words, and review them for "red flags" before they are already in the listeners' ears and have done their damage! I have a faulty filter between my honest brain and my tongue."

OMG this is sooooo me....one of my bad traits I suppose.

"I haven't stopped thinking about you".... NOT MEANING I was in love or obsessed, but just that I saw potential and wanted to see him again, and see where things could go for us. But it was worded incorrectly, and came out wrong, I suppose, and probably scared him to death."

I've done this same thing sooooooooooo many times...and then wonder why they back off...LOL

I don't think you can divide liars into givers or takers.

I've had my share of bad-boys, and most of them are HUGE liars. They will say whatever it takes to get what they want.

TBG, I think the issues you bring up about saying what she wants to hear (or not saying what she doesn't want to hear) has a lot to do with your giver tendencies -- I think you need to be careful. Its pretty easy to mold yourself into what she wants. The problem is that it might not be what YOU want.

Well, Lexxxy, those bad boys (players) are grade-A takers and what do they do? They lie, lie, lie. So I think we can safely say that a taker will lie.

Well, since everybody has a giver and a taker it doesn't make sense to say that takers lie, because then you are saying that everybody lies.

It's when a person is predominantly a GIVER or predominantly a TAKER that they become more likely to lie. The motivation for the lies are just different.

Well, no you can't force the other person to do anything. But, I think, by setting clear boundaries for yourself, and what YOU want, you sorta force them to make a decision about what THEY want. Sometimes their decision is to avoid a decision <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />, and you either wait, or move on. "I will not tolerate being treated such-n-such-a-way, so decide what you really want." or "I want <blank> (exclusivity, complete honesty, sex only with commitment, kids, to get married, or to move to another state, or to be catholic, etc), and you'll need to decide if you want the same thing or not." It's not manipulation. It's deciding what you want for yourself, and letting the other person decide for themselves. And not being afraid of the results.

??

hmmm... I tend to agree that when we lie, it is our TAKER acting out. But we all do it from time to time, to some degree, even if it is a lie of omission when we bite our tongue about something. We are not always right when choosing if it is OUR best benefit to keep quiet (TAKER), or THEIR best benefit to keep quiet (GIVER). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] My experience with people that are not honest with themselves is that they will say one thing and end up doing another.

So in order to "get" honesty, I might point out that it seems unrealistic to expect one thing to happen, when in the past another thing has happened. And then I prepare for the realistic outcome. I don't think that I am disrespecting another person by predicting an outcome based on past performance.

For instance,

"Jim is coming over tonight" SO says.
"Oh Jim, - did you pick up any beer?" I ask
"We have plenty - he won't stay long." SO says
"The last ten times Jim was here, he drank at least 5 beers and didn't leave until after midnight." I reply "Is there some reason Jim would have to leave early?"
"Oh no baby - you're probably right. I probably should pick up some more beer." SO says

I think it is boundary setting to say what the predicted outcome is thought to be. In the past, I would not have said anything, Jim would have come over, drank all the beer, and not left until midnight and I would have resented this.

I guess "getting" someone to be honest might not be possible, but pointing out realistic outcomes when someone tries to downplay all the time is certainly possible.

V. [/color]

Is it possible for you to switch that situation around to set boundaries for YOURSELF, instead of pointing out something about him that needed to change?

"since everybody has a giver and a taker"

Yet we know this isn't true at all. Some people are out of balance and have either their giver or taker turned off. A player is a classic pathological taker. They NEVER give anything. Whenever someone gets out of balance their behavior is effected.

Hey, I was married to a taker, and she was a great liar -- whatever it took to get her way.