Not sure which area helped you, but your welcome..

LOL. I was worried about whether I'd be married even when my divorce was final. Would God really accept it? Would I get up to heaven and find I was still married to my STBX? I was very upset about the whole thing.

One statement you made that hit home. You said divorce was a reaction to sin. The original sin was in the human heart. Now, that made a lot of sense to me. I'm sure B thinks I was stone hearted, and by the end, I may have been. I couldn't risk opening my heart to him. You can guess what I think, probably. You've read and responded to many of my posts over the years.

Oh, yes, and I like your verse.

Greengables,

So you know, there won't even BE marriage or marriages in heaven, not like it is here.

As the church we are the BRIDE of Christ, and He is our Bridegroom.

But, yes God can forgive you even of a hard heart that led to your divorce. God's grace is extended to all, even if they do not to accept it.

But like what was said before, divorce is not a sin, it's the hardness of heart that leads to divorce that is the sin and that was the reason divorce was allowed to begin with.

The bible teaches God has extended to all, a measure of faith, some step out in that faith and believe, others do not.

People tend to believe people are basically good at their core, but the bible tells us the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked and out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts. (Jer. 17:9; Mat. 15:19) which is totally opposite from being basically "good" people.

But it is the heart of man that God judges, and when we ask God to search our heart to see if there be any wicked way in us (and there is in ALL of us)God will show us how sinful we really are by His standard of judgement, not man's, where we can confess, repent, and seek His forgiveness from the heart.

So please don't believe that just because you are divored you can't go to heaven or that God will never forgive you.

The Bible is clear that the ONLY unforgiveable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit and that is done over a period of time as a person rejects His promptings on their heart.

Unless you are Morman.

Well, even then there won't be.

I have no real idea what heaven will be like. I believe "in the resurrection of the body," but I'd really like to have a ten pound skinnier body. Maybe if I'm not married in heaven, but have my body, I can have sex with anyone I like! Now, that would be wonderful. And because it's heaven, I wouldn't be hurt if my lover(s) were having sex with anyone and everyone they wanted to!

Oh, well. I guess I'll just wait and see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Personally, 72 virgins sound fun to me... ;-)

Nah, not virgins. Nice formerly married gals with experience.

Amen to that!! By the way Anne, if your theory is correct, I would like to look you up, as well as the rest of the fine MB ladies. Perhaps you could twist your halos into MB or something like that. Hmmm.

Yeah, that's true... besides, why do these virgins keep dying in the first place?

*sigh*

Thorned Rose--I debate religion and I call myself an agnostic, but deep in my heart, my religion defines so many things in my life..

Do you think that since my x-H was gay, my marriage was never valid? According to YOUR beliefs, how does that work? My Priest said that since my x-H lied about his sexual orientation, the marriage can be anulled...what do you think?

It makes me sick inside to think that my current marriage could be invalid because I'm still married to my x-H under God....

Aeri,
Don't worry about that. No, you are no longer married in any way to a gay man. God does not insist on such a thing. Be the best wife you can be right now, God will love that.

Aeri, I actually think TR is saying you are NOT married to your XH under God's eyes. TR is just saying you cannot remarry your ex. That's on Peachy's thread about the email.

I believe that yes, it can be annulled, based on the lies, and then I'd wonder, if you don't consider yourself to be a Christian, and your ex-h wasn't/isn't a Christian then why would you worry about if you were bound in God's eyes?

In my beliefs, if an 'unbeliever' leaves a marriage they are no longer bound to the other, not even in God's eyes per 1 Corinthians 7:15.

And if even if you are a Christian, you would follow the principles set forth in Matthew 18:15-17. About confronting the person and if they refuse to repent, asking others within the church to confront them and if they still refuse to repent then you treat them as if they are an unbeliever.

And if you were not a believer when you married him, and became a believer after your divorce, all that is required is to forgive him as God forgives you, but you are not bound even by Scripture to go back to him.

And in that you've married another if you look back to Duet. 24:1-4 we find that since you are remarried, you couldn't go back to your ex-h anyway.

God hates divorce because of the sin that caused the hardness of hearts that lead to the divorce, the divorce itself is not a sin. A divorce is just the consequences of the sin.

And even then God can and does forgive the hardness of heart that led to the divorce.

Here are two different websites you can read and maybe gain a greater understanding and even a peace in your heart, that you are not bound to your ex.

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding:



divorce remarriage

can a Christian remarry

aeri,

here is another link you may want to check out.

website

Greengables--sorry for hijacking your thread.....

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if you don't consider yourself to be a Christian, and your ex-h wasn't/isn't a Christian then why would you worry about if you were bound in God's eyes?

TH:

My ex-H and I were devoted, Church going Catholics when we married! We both attended Catholic schools and were from devoted Catholic families.

Since I've become a member here, I've been jaded against the Church and religion in general, but that's not to say that I still don't have an interest in the Bible..I don't consider myself a non-Christian, either. I believe in Christ....

I am an agnostic in that I don't believe the existence of God is provable..but nothing based on faith is provable anyways....

I've had Bible studies with Christian groups (enlightening) and I had a Bible study with the local Jehovah's Witnesses (interesting views!) and I've read the Bible twice. I like to read through the passages and try to see them with a completely unbiased view...I try to understand what the purpose was...I try to understand the plight of the Jews....I try to understand everything. I do believe that Jesus existed...I think he WAS the Son of God....but I'm just not that clear on the New Testament...I have to read it again or have another study.

So--my point is--I care about how I'm viewed in God's eyes because I believe the Bible and it's teachings are the ultimate moral code. I may not believe in the religions that have been developed, but I am very interested in a Christian's view of it. Do you understand? I'm just opening my mind...I'm trying to determine where I stand in the universe, I guess....

In a nutshell, I guess I'm just the ultimate piece of human "unfinished business"...I can't figure out where I belong. I can't understand why so many different Christian religions have conflicting teachings...I can't support Catholicism, knowing the depravity that goes on with the Priests...I can't support Christian religions that outlaw dancing and I can't accept Christian teachings that say I can't re-marry after I divorce (I had a Christian friend who said I was "tainted" because I'd been married <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)....

Thanks for the reading material. I'm at work, but I'll definitely read the pages when I get home. Thanks for taking the time to look up those pages for me!

Aeri,

No need to apologize it's not really a thread jack in this case, because it was started for the exact reason of your first post. She too struggled with some of the same beliefs of "since I'm divorced If I remarry, that marriage isn't valid in God's eyes, and divorce is a sin." So to make the next step here, is logical.

Many people have that belief, they get stuck at "God hates divorce" well, of course He hates divorce because there is unrepentant sin involved that led to the divorce itself.

God knows that not dealing with the sin, is what causes the hurts and causes bitterness and hardness of hearts, and the sad thing is that many people even after a divorce still don't deal with the sin that caused the hardness of heart that led to the divorce to begin with.


A question, were you devoted to the church itself or to Christ? There is a difference.

The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people, it's dealing with two aspects of their history. The physical history and the History of God's relationship with them in other words their Spiritual History.

Yes, God laid out the moral laws within which we are to live, and at the same time God knew that nobody could live with those laws. Because it's not about the physical act of breaking those laws, but more to do with our hearts. Which is why Jesus basically blasted the Religious leaders of His day, they were only looking at the physically keeping of the law and not at the heart.

Take adultry for example, if we are to look at the fullnes of adultry it doesn't start with the physical act, it starts in the heart. The seeing the other person and then coveting to be with that person at any cost, even at the expense of how it hurts others. And if you take that, and look at Sin over all within the same context you can begin to see that even those start in the heart. Which is why the bible (the New Testament more so) teaches that the heart has to be changed.

In the Old Testment, they made pure unblemished animal sacrifices to make payment for sins, that was actually started in the book of Genesis, when God killed an animal in order to 'cover' or 'clothe' Adam and Eve. If you notice before the fall, they were naked they just didn't realize they were, it wasn't until sin entered the world did they realize that 'hey were naked' before God. So, it took the sheding of blood to cover their sins as well as their physical bodies.

They were only looking at the physical aspect of the sin, which is what most people still do today, whereas God was looking on their hearts at the root of what caused them to 'act out' in their sin physically.

Now, like I was saying, God knew that NOBODY could keep the law in it's totality, because it starts in the heart or the unseen things, that inner part of man that makes us who we are at our core.

Looking at Jesus, who was both fully man in the physical, and fully God in the Spiritual, He had to die to the physical in order to save the Spiritual. So that people like the Apostles and even us today, can understand God wasn't just talking just about the physical aspect of man (the body)like the Rabbi's taught, but about the Spirit of man that what makes us who we are. God knew He was the only one who could ever pay His required price for sin (death) and it be pure enough to even meet His standards.

A question for you, do you 'see' the wind? Or do you 'feel' it? So, How do you know it's 'wind' and not something else
without stepping out in faith, to believe that it really is wind?

Why do you go to church or why did you go? Was it only because your parents made you go? Or was it because you wanted to go? Did you feel guilty or as if you would be 'punished' if you didn't go?

I'm asking because the reasons we go to church are important, Church isn't about US, it's about the gathering together of those who love God worshipping God together. It's about being thankful that He loved us so much, that He was willing to Die just so that WE could be reconciled to Him. Consider if God thought we weren't worth it and decided He's just going to destroy us all and continue in His relationship with Himself. That is where God's grace and mercy come in. We are sinners and even though we are sinners God loves us anyway, and desires to have a 'relationship' with us, not one we feel 'obligated' to have but one He places the desire in our hearts to have because we realize just what it is He did for us. In other words it's not about Church, and it's not even about "Religion" it's all about relationship, the relationship God desires to have with US.

And as far as all the various religions, many people don't believe:

1. The God who created the Universe would actually die for His creation or that He would desire to have a relationship with us. (a GOD wouldn't die for us)

2. The God who created the Universe could only have ONE way to have a relationship with Him. (If God is as loving as He says He couldn't possibly have ONLY ONE WAY TO HIM)

3. The God who created the Universe would actually send anyone to he11 to pay for their own sins. (He's supposed to be forgiving, so He wouldn't make *ME* pay the price for MY sins, I mean after all, I'm NOT as bad as so and so, I've NEVER Killed anyone, I've NEVER committed Adultry, I've never....fill in the blank, but just one sin is worthy of death and eternal seperation from Him, according to God)

But if we look at the core of all of those (and there are others)it's about US, and what we think God "should" do for US. When in reality it's all about Him and what HE chose TO DO for us, HIS CREATION. He created US, He gave US life, He died for US, He calls US to Himself, it has nothing to do with what we can do, because if it weren't for Him, we wouldn't even EXIST.

The purpose of the Scriptures is to help us to KNOW God. To know that He exists, to know His thoughts, to know what He desires for us.

The plight of the Jews, was the same as the same plight of mankind today, we chose to sin as opposed to live for God, over and over through out the Old Testament God called the Jews to Him, they turned to Him for awhile then turned away.

Much of the OT is about the coming Messiah, and what was supposed to happen to Him (his death and even how He would die Isaiah 53). The NT, as you know is partly about the life of Christ, but it also talks about things still to come (just like some of the OT books do) but it also talks about How Christians should live their life, under grace and no longer under the letter of the law. Jesus' blood covers and forgives all sins, not just some sins and it is within that forgiveness that we are to live.

But, we can't even do that within our own strength, which is what the role of the Holy Spirit comes in, endwelling us, living within us so that we can do it with God's strength. God Himself even helps us to live within His grace.

So you know, God see's you just as see's me and everyone else, as a sinner in need of a Savior, and when we confess our sins to Him, and seek His forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior (the one who made the payment to God for our sins) He then see's only Christ's righteousness in us when He looks at us.

And I fully understand not being able to except those teachings of not dancing and not remarrying, because that is living under the 'letter' of the law and not under God's grace and mercy and Jesus' shed blood.

And as far as the Catholic priests, they too are just sinners, in need of a Savior, just like us. They just have a different sin to struggle with and depend on God to help them overcome than we do. And because they abuse their authority and power if they don't truly repent of their sins and turn away from them (if they are really Christians, they will be ashamed and judged even more harshly when they stand before God because they are teachers, and if they aren't well, they will still be judged and spend eternity suffering in ******.

And so you know, it's not a problem sharing or even looking up websites to share. God isn't a God of confusion, so when we are confused we are supposed to seek answers. And I do hope that something I've shared has helped to answer some of your questions. And even within what I've shared, I know some people still won't believe or understand, but you know, I realize I have no control over that, and it really is between them and God. And just so you know, if you wish to take this off the forum we can and I will gladly try and help to answer some of your questions if I can. (thornedrose3@yahoo.com)

but a suggestion, when you read the Bible, ask God to teach you, and don't try and understand it in your own strength or reasoning abilities.

Aeri,

I need to apologize here, I really am sorry, something I wrote was not the truth, and I really need to correct it, because I don't want to mislead you or anyone else reading, where you get the wrong impression.


I need to correct this statement, they are not living under the letter of the law, what I should have said is that they are *ADDING TO* the law. Because, No where in the Bible does it say as believers we can't dance, even King David danced before God.

I believe most preachers who teach this are looking at it as being and "appearance of evil" issue, and not that dancing in and of itself is evil, but some dances can be rather sexually suggestive, so they preach against dancing at all.
And as some non-believers and even believers think dancing is a sin, if they see you out dancing it could cause them to stumble.

Again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I should have paid more attention to what I wrote.

I'll also add..

Just like drinking, many preachers teach it's a sin to drink at all, when the truth is, drinking in and of itself isn't a sin, it's the getting drunk that is the sin. I had one pastor who taught "if you never drink, then you never have a chance to get drunk, so though it's not a sin to drink, it's better not to."

I know of one church here, that recently opened a daycare on premises, and one of the rules for employees is "If a member of the church or even a parent whose child goes to the daycare see's them going to any R rated movie they can fire them on the spot." I would have hated to see how many of them would have been fired had they seen them going to see "The Passion of Christ" or if they would have made an exception to the 'rule' for that movie. Apparently many people have left that church over the past six months because they are adding to the law and not living under grace.

TR:

Thank you SO much for spending the time to clarify this point for me! The articles you included are exactly what I needed!

In the past, my problem with Biblical teachings has been that they often don't appeal to my sense of logic. Many of the things I was taught as a child, I followed blindly, however, as I became older (and wiser) I realized that many of the "infallible truths" I believed were just lies. The first time I read the Bible, I did so simply to clarify facts for myself--I needed to know what was actually written and what my Church had fabricated. I learned that the Catholic Church has taken quite a lot of "poetic license" with their rules and regulations. Logically, I knew it just COULDN'T be that way. These articles are very logical. There is nothing that doesn't make sense AND it goes along with the notion that God gives us a CHOICE--we're not meant to be robots, blindly following the law...

When I ventured into the "Christian" religions (meaning, those who didn't necessarily go to Church, but followed the Bible to the letter), I understood the fundamentals of the Bible, but still, many teachings didn't appeal to my logic at all. My friend who considered me "tainted" was a good example. I wondered, just as they mentioned in the article you sent---why would God prevent me from being married again...isn't that the best deterent to living an immoral lifestyle? Again, I realized that these "Christians" were interpreting the scriptures to satisfy their own hangups and idiosyncracies...

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...they are not living under the letter of the law, what I should have said is that they are *ADDING TO* the law.

Exactly! As I said, they may even do this to satisfy their own insecurities or idiosyncracies. My Christian friends are very close to being human robots---one even suggests that he won't pursue a relationship with his girlfriend until God gives him a sign that it's ok to do so. Call me a non-believer, but I believe that we've been given a brain in order to make the best decisions for ourselves, based on the scripture--we shouldn't be sitting around, waiting for a miracle.

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A question for you, do you 'see' the wind? Or do you 'feel' it? So, How do you know it's 'wind' and not something else without stepping out in faith, to believe that it really is wind?

I feel the wind which is why I believe that it IS wind. I've been taught that what I feel is wind. Science tells me that its wind.

Assuming that you're paralleling this with faith in God...I'm not sure it's the same. I can feel wind on my skin...there's definitely SOMETHING hitting me when the wind blows. One could argue that God is felt within the soul, but often, those things that are felt within your heart and soul are exactly the things that are figments of your imagination....A child who "feels" there's a monster under the bed is a pretty good example.

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to be argumentative--I'm simply playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. Feeling something physically and feeling it psychologically isn't the same thing...I'm not sure anyone could use this as an argument for faith.

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Why do you go to church or why did you go? Was it only because your parents made you go? Or was it because you wanted to go? Did you feel guilty or as if you would be 'punished' if you didn't go?

I went because it was a part of my life. Attending Mass was a part of my life and it was just a natural progression to marry someone with the same beliefs as mine and continue the tradition.

My parents didn't make me go. I always went to Mass because I wanted to be there. I truly felt closer to God when I was there. I felt that I was doing the right thing within myself.

I never felt that I would be punished if I didn't attend. I know plenty of people who didn't want to go, but were forced or were "guilted" into going. This is one of the reasons why I felt it was time to distance myself from the Church--I felt that an institution that had to bribe and guilt its followers into attending Mass was seriously flawed.

When my ex-H revealed to me that he was gay (I already knew, of course), I asked my Priest if it was possible to obtain an annulment, based on that information. What put me off was that the Church INSISTED on "outing" my ex-H, in order for me to obtain the annulment. I felt this was unfair--my ex-H wasn't ready to share this information with the world, yet the Church wouldn't grant the annulment UNLESS he did. I decided I would marry my H civily, in order to save my ex-H the shame of being exposed... I believe that had the Catholic Church been interested in retaining my membership, they would have granted my annulment, based on the individual merits of the case--not based on the "law" of the Church. I doubted that Jesus would have judged our marriage this way.....

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but a suggestion, when you read the Bible, ask God to teach you, and don't try and understand it in your own strength or reasoning abilities.

Yes--you're so right about this and this isn't the first time I've been advised to do this. I've read the Bible to familiarize myself with it---afterwards, I took two Bible studies in order to understand it from someone else's point of view. I have asked God to help me understand and I do believe that my understanding is more clear because of that.

Thanks so much for sharing your email address. I can't promise that I'll contact you (just because I'm so busy all the time--I mostly post at work) but I really appreciate you opening yourself to questioning. I always have questions and I like having someone knowlegable to turn to!

Thanks again!

Again your welcome, as you can tell throughout most of my posts, it's a topic I enjoy sharing.

You know, I think most people as children follow their faith blindly. Which is what children do, not only faith in the 'church' but also their parents. As children we believe our parents 'know' everything because they have lived longer, but as we get older we learn they don't and never did, it's just that because they were older they knew more than we did.

your searching for answers and questioning what you were taught is actually normal, the Bible even teaching in the book of 1 John Chapter 4 we are supposed to test the spirits, and teachings to see if they are from God.

And no, were not supposed to be robots, God certainly gives us choices within our relationship with Him to follow Him or not, the more we read and learn the closer we get to Christ as He teaches us. And like you, I know many people who live that same way, thinking that if they are 'just good enough' if they 'do enough good deeds' it will get them to heaven which is contrary to what the bible actually teaches.




And it could be they don't 'think' God has truly forgiven them. I've found many people tend to believe God can forgive some sins, but not ALL sins. And yet, they couldn't tell you exactly what sins God doesn't forgive (the only one is rejecting the Holy Spirit). So they continue to try and work *for* their salvation, when we really called to "work out" our salvation. Which basically means doing what it appears you are doing, looking at why you believe what you do, and not just taking some Preacher, or Pastors, or Priests word for it and looking at what you've learned to see if it is the truth or a lie. I've found a lot of people don't do this, they really don't want God to search their hearts and show them their own hearts, much less have a deeper relationship with Him, they just think 'I'm saved and that's all I need to know about God' and then miss out on so much more.



[QUTE]one even suggests that he won't pursue a relationship with his girlfriend until God gives him a sign that it's ok to do so.[/QUOTE]

He won't pursue a relationship? In what way? like marriage?
What kind of sign is he looking for? and I agree we shouldn't be sitting around waiting for a miracle, but we should still be looking for them within the context of living our lives.

It's not really a feeling of the presence of the wind, but more of a knowing. Just like with the Holy Spirit, it's a knowing He's there even when you don't feel it. You know the wind exists even when you don't feel it, the same way I know The Holy Spirit is present within me even when I don't 'feel' it.


As far as this goes, they were biblical in their view, Matthew 18:15-18, they are supposed to confront the person, which is why I have such a huge issue with the RCC when they just move a priest to another parrish instead of dealing with the sin right where they are and preventing those those who they sinned against from confronting them and dealing with it straight on. But you know, it's not JUST the RCC, there are many other denomations that do the same thing, they just desire to hide the sin, than confess it, and allow them to face the consequences of their sins before God in this life time and not the next.

And like your ex-husband who struggles with the homosexuality, we all have our own sins we struggle with,
some adultry, some lying, some stealing, some drunkness, some reacting in anger, some with coveting, some with putting things or others before God and various others things, but you know all of them have the same consequences if not confessed and dealt with before God. Romans 6:23

Which is why, they felt the need to bring it out into the open, because if it remains secret, and can't be dealt with, much like an affair, until it's out in the open you can't really deal with the issue. Unless a person is confronted with their lies, they can never learn how their lies are hurting those around them and how others can never really trust them.

But I think the way to really look at it, is to ask yourself were they wanting to address the issue in order to help save your marriage? Or just to be mean? What was the spirit of why they wanted to make it public. Was it to hurt him? Or to help him?

And I understand being busy, I just wanted to offer in case you wanted to take it off the board.

And so you know, I certainly don't have ALL the answers, but I will certainly help with the one's I can.