interesting discussion, TR/aeri....I share some of the logical concerns about relgious discernment/belief.

1. No wo/man can interpret "Truth" for another spiritually. So we all have to find our way ourself, and if we don't, I think there are undesireable consequences. However, the evidence we have is substantial, and discussing that with other Christians is a means of discerning truth, going it alone is an assurance we will not find truth. The reason being by definition we (all) are imperfect, so will never get it 100% right. Which IMO is one of the reasons God requires fellowship, for discernment and accountability.

2. There is no need to "feel" the wind, and I don't think that was TR point... The deal is pretty straightforward, there are many many things we cannot prove directly including the sum total of "physics", et al. We actually don't know anything at all with certaintly...what we do is make decisions everyday based on what we think we know, based on observation..until consequences suggest a reevaluation (assuming we survive the event).

Carrying this into Relgious matters (which is essentially the why do we exist question)...the scientific evidence, and logical interpretation, is rather overwhelming, and becoming moreso daily it seems, that the best "fit" for our existence is a directed one...ie we live in a created universe, not a random event of some kind. That is where analytical/logical types must start, it is the foundation, you have to buy into that first. One can come to belief in God directly through faith, and some do, but human beings process their existence two ways, intuitively (emotional side), and analytically, the cognitive/rational side. You can find God either way, and the Bible actually says that specifically (help me here TR, I do not know Scripture as well I should).

Once one discerns we live in a created universe, then their is a lot of work to do to determine what that means in terms of everyday decision making. I have pondered this for some time (maybe 40 years or so). The problem for analytical types is they want the smoking gun. Now God could provide that, and He has on occassion to individuals, or groups, but for reasons of His own, He chooses not to, to mankind in general. There has to be a reason for this, and I think it is this... There is something about faith, about making that final leap, taking that final step off the cliff, trusting you will be caught. I think God is culling the human species, He seeks those with the capacity to make such a leap. For what reason, I have no idea, but that is all the seperates the human race...those who believe, and those who do not. It is a test aeri...that is what faith is. It is not a thing, it is not exactly feeling the wind, it is not proof, or logic, it is something else within all of us, that we have to find, or not, and if find it, act on it (freewill lets us find it, but then not act on it). It is not about good works, behaviour, going to church, studious search, logical arguments, nor is about holy rollers, or praise music, or a million praise the Lord's a day (the emotion based equivalent of good works, or logic). It is finding that place inside us to leap, knowing we cannot save ourself, and will surely die, but beleiveing, as "irrational" as it may be, we will be caught.

When does one do this successfully, impossible for anyone to say, but you will know if you have leaped...and if so, there is no turning back. Logical types can get close, lots of good evidence, so they kinda teeter on the edge of the cliff, trying to look down, maybe even climb down a bit to investigate, maybe leap but wear a parachute just in case, or tie off to a rope, or try to get someone to push them, or jump with them holding their hand....won't work, truth will not be revealed. I think God actually requires us choose Him with both our discernments. Logical types do all their homework, but have to jump based on faith....faith types are eager to jump, but they need to use their brains to find the right cliff, or they do not end up caught by the right hands...so to speak.

Good luck in your search for answers, and reasons, and such..that is half the battle, most don't even do that, why not escapes me, what could be more important in life.
If you haven't allready, there are many good books these days, many written by scientists themselves (easily searched out through google), about the logical reasons to conclude we live in a created universe. What to do about that requires different study, essentially aerriving at a decision about the Bible and it's veracity. But that is anohter issue...and very interesting itself, the Bible stands up to logical scrutiny amazingly well...which is an evidence in itself. Once one concludes the Bible is out best source of revealed knowledge from a creator, then the "fun" begins, interpreting Scripture by imperfect human beings.


btw I agree with the discussion about "adding", human beings are forever trying to tell each other what to do, and relgion is a good means to promote repressive and/or controlling agendas. It is not (for the most part) what we do, but why we do it, and do we do it to excess, be it pride, gluttony, slothfullness, lustfullness, vanity...and so forth. Re the oppressive interpretations about remarriage, there would be little point to God recognizing divorce (and He clearly does recognize that state), if it left us broken forever, and seperate forever from choices. God knows our hearts, and therein lies the truth re ones "oneflesh" condition, or worthiness as a mate again. Each day we are covered by Grace, and begin again, if we continue to choose sin, don't repent, and so forth, perhaps that reflects we are not as saved as may think we are, and still dancing about on top of the cliff pretending we jumped... I dunno. But if we are right with God, and ourselves, then all is available to us, including choosing to mate again... how one became "single", is irrelevant to whether one can make such a choice, what is relevant is our mind and hearts each day as we do the best we can to discern and walk the path God has in mind for us. First, 2nd, 100th marriage, the number is meaningless, what is meaningful is the spiritual condition of the 2 people entering the marriage, and their understanding and acceptance of God's plan for marital intent/behaviour. But that is another subject, and one Christians will disagree with Scripturally as they do with lots of other doctrine...in the end, each of us is responsible for, and will answer for our "interpretation" of all matters, not for how well we followed someone elses interpretation.

Just read TR last one, and I agree with the confronting part, assuming of course done properly. The church cannot accept homosexuality, and God can and will cover all sins, including sexual sin...but He won't without a willing heart, repentance and asking for God's help. Re the annulment issue, only God can marry or divorce someone, we have cermonies, and social interaction to relect that...it has always puzzled me why the Catholics think they have the power to settle a marital condition...when God makes it clear only He can do so. The hook of course is people want to remarry in the "Catholic" church, and be a member of a Catholic congregation, but can't do so if being rejected because of these kinds of matters. IMO that is time to leave the Catholic church, when one has can no longer ignore the fact of Catholic misbehaviour in it's leadership (who will answer some day for their misguidance). There are other "churches" more in tune with God's will, and spiritually healthier places to worship/fellowship. Until they de-deify the Pope, catholism will remain the world's largest cult. That is why Martin Luther left in the first place, and rightly so, and little has changed in the interveneing 500 years.

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'I'm saved and that's all I need to know about God'

I have met many, many Christians who believe this way. It's maddening to me, although it shouldn't be.

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He won't pursue a relationship? In what way? like marriage?

He's been dating a Christian girl (long distance) for 8 years. She's severed the relationship several times because he refuses to marry her. He's waiting for that sign from God...I don't understand it. I told him that God gave him the ability to reason so he could make that decision for himself, but he doesn't accept that. He tends to quote scripture that appears to support his actions, but it doesn't wash with me because I can't imagine that God would expect a man to just wait for divine intervention.

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It's not really a feeling of the presence of the wind, but more of a knowing. Just like with the Holy Spirit, it's a knowing He's there even when you don't feel it. You know the wind exists even when you don't feel it, the same way I know The Holy Spirit is present within me even when I don't 'feel' it.

This is an excellent argument and I can't dispute anything you've said. These are the things that I think about all the time....

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But I think the way to really look at it, is to ask yourself were they wanting to address the issue in order to help save your marriage? Or just to be mean? What was the spirit of why they wanted to make it public. Was it to hurt him? Or to help him?

I disagreed with their approach for a couple of reasons:

1. I was asking for the annulment for my own reasons. I just needed to know that I wasn't "still married in the eyes of God"...even if I didn't believe in the teachings of the Church, the feeling of still being married was eating away at me. They refused to anul the marriage UNLESS he admited to the homosexuality. How does this help me in my quest? I felt that they were attempting to "out" him at my expense.

2. I felt that a Church that truly wanted to help him "see the light" would have approached this in such a way that our marriage was annuled (for my sake) and then they could deal with the homosexuality as a separate issue. They were so concerned with following the "laws" of the Church, I felt I was dealing with the government, not the representative body of my God.

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Once one discerns we live in a created universe, then their is a lot of work to do to determine what that means in terms of everyday decision making.

This has been one of the most difficult issues for me to deal with in my life. I always believed in Creation (through religious teachings), then, having been educated beyond the Catholic school system, I realized that the rest of the world believed in the Magical "Chemical Soup" theory and the "Big Bang"...

After studying these theories (and they are THEORIES, in the purest sense) I realized that they hold no more validity or logic than the Creation theory. I stand firm in my belief that we were CREATED. I cannot accept that humanity was an accident of the Universe.

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It is a test aeri...that is what faith is.

Of course it's a test--that's why I spend so much time searching for the truth.

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It is finding that place inside us to leap, knowing we cannot save ourself, and will surely die, but beleiveing, as "irrational" as it may be, we will be caught.

Simply stated, this is faith and most religious people have it. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the best example of this type of faith--no matter how sick they may be, in most cases, they REFUSE blood transfusions. They take that inner "leap"...believing that they are following the doctrines and that God will 'catch' them.

Unfortunately, I have to pack up to go home now, but I will be thinking about these posts long after I leave. I may not always be the most serious poster here, but I have some pretty serious thoughts floating around my brain...hehe... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

maybe part of the difficulty for people is semantic, definitions, such as faith.

Faith is one of those words that is often used to justify actions, that is not what faith is about. We take actions cause they make sense, based on our knowledge, experiences, training, expectations, current circumstances, our own shortcomings, instinct...etc. The JW example is not one of faith, rather an action taken (or not taken, but same thing) out of ignorance, and improperly justified by using concept of faith. At best it is an interpretive conflict, so by definition can be wrong as an action decision...but it is not faith. Faith you will be caught, is the word we assign to the concept of making a choice about the nature of our existence, and conducting ones life based on that principle, without 100% "proof". All of us are going to err in how we understand what to do everyday, not only err out of ignorance, and misunderstandig, but also deliberately, when we do things we allready know we should not... We cannot use faith as a justification for anything. We take actions based on trust and obedience in God, as we understand His will, and that is a continuous process, and can change if we realize we made an error in a particular way. Trust and obedience are not the same as faith.

When we get on an airplane, we could say we have "faith" the plane will fly, and the pilots will operate it successfully. We don't really know do we? But is not faith, it is trust in the engineers who built the plane, the mechanics who maintain it, the pilots who have been trained to operate it..and we trust all these requirements, as well as a functioning air traffic control system will keep us safe. We are obedient in following rules about security, and our behaviour while on the plane etc, not smoking, or disrupting the pilots concentration, or using cell phones, or whatever. The jw are not being faithful, they think they are being obedient, is not a faith issue, or a leap. This notion confuses people, thinking that if they have faith they are selling themselves out, and will be like other fanatics, or ignorant people they have observed, and so they never leap, and will be lost forever, for the wrong reasons, or one could say, the culling works, and they did not have the capacity for faith. For a jw, if their truculence in medical matters is what they base their faith on, not only will they sicken and die more often, but may very well also not be saved spiritually if they have based their faith on following "rules".

Each of us has to do two things. The first is properly discern a leap is required, and God has told us, all will have a choice to accept or reject Him, so that is a given. The second thing is to make that leap (or not), and that will determine how we live our lives, and our fate. Making the leap is not a trivial matter, we can delude ourselves, thinking we are doing so, and then not really, therein lies the reasons God provided instruction through chosen speakers, prophets, Jesus, direct access through prayer, and the collection of His word we call the Bible. The more we steep ourselves in this knowledge as we struggle to understand, the more likely we are to find that place in us that is capable of faith and act on it. Keep in mind that this process is not a nice clean easy one, it is a war, a spiritual war, and many forces are at work to distract, confuse, and mislead us in our search for truth. For atheists and their ilk, distraction is focused on unreasonable application of "proof", requiring an absolute proof, a standard that cannot be met... atheists end up worshiping a "religion" based on their perception of the nature of truth...the funny thing is we are all religious, every single human being makes decisions based on something, some understanding of the nature of our existence, and that is the definition of religion, whether one calls the basis "God", "karma", "Science", "Philosophy"...or whatever is irrelevant....that is what is so screwed up about our so-called seperation of church and state, is just a naked power grab by another religion, the secularists, who seem to have no problem telling people what to do, just like....oh yeah, just like religion :eyes roll:

I don't think the problem is semantics...to understand Faith in itself, you must be able to apply its meaning to your subject matter.

FAITH is defined as the following:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

You mentioned that the Jehovah's Witness example isn't one of "faith", but I don't understand why you don't believe that their choice to not accept blood transfusions isn't based on faith.

In the Old Testament, God said (and forgive me for not knowing the chapter and verse) that the Jews weren't to take in the blood or human or animal. The Jehovah's Witnesses simply have taken that literally and do NOT take any form of blood that isn't their own.

They believe that since God gave these orders, they will be saved from Armageddon because they have obeyed the rules of God. Don't we all aspire to follow the word of God? Following the 10 Commandments is an act of faith in itself, so why would any other commandment from God be different?

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For a jw, if their truculence in medical matters is what they base their faith on, not only will they sicken and die more often, but may very well also not be saved spiritually if they have based their faith on following "rules".

I believe you've misinterpreted the plight of the Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to the blood issue. Their intention isn't to argue their beliefs with the medical establishment, but simply to follow the rules that God himself set out for them. The truculence is on the part of the medical community, not the JW's, as you suggest.

All religions have "rules",however, rules were clearly set out in the Bible. The 10 Commandments were rules to live by--were they not? Isn't a Christian who follows the 10 Commandments simply following the "rules" in order to obtain salvation? Following the rules of your Saviour in order to obtain salvation is an act of faith---if you follow the teachings or rules, you will be saved from eternal damnation. Those who choose to follow the rules are basing their salvation on FAITH. You may not agree with their way of obtaining salvation, but that doesn't change the fact that they are acting in FAITH.

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The first is properly discern a leap is required, and God has told us, all will have a choice to accept or reject Him, so that is a given.

In most religions, accepting or rejecting Christ is dependant on one's adherence to the rules, so if we were to use the JW's as an example, so the leap is required.

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The second thing is to make that leap (or not), and that will determine how we live our lives, and our fate. Making the leap is not a trivial matter, we can delude ourselves, thinking we are doing so, and then not really, therein lies the reasons God provided instruction through chosen speakers, prophets, Jesus, direct access through prayer, and the collection of His word we call the Bible.

Wouldn't you agree that the JW's are indeed making the leap, since they are living their lives and making decisions, based on the information that they have been given by God? I don't understand why you don't feel that this applies to them?

Even Muslim extremists are following the teachings of their God. They have faith in SOMETHING which drives them to do what they do, however strange and convoluted it may seem to us! Aren't they also promised salvation for their deeds?

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what is what is so screwed up about our so-called seperation of church and state, is just a naked power grab by another religion, the secularists, who seem to have no problem telling people what to do, just like....oh yeah, just like religion :eyes roll:

This is a given, I think.

In China, during the transition to Communism, the government outlawed religion because it was impossible to control the masses if their was a leader greater than the government (God)...

The same is true in the United States today---of course there's a push to secularize the masses! What chance does the government have of controlling the masses if God holds a higher position of authority within society?

Read "The New World Order" by A. Ralph Epperson for a bird's eye view of this. You'll be stunned.

Greengables and Aeri,

Here is another link for you on this topic that I thought would be helpful.


remarriage

Aeri,

No body can truly follow the 10 Commandments, which is why Christ died. So, no following them is not about 'obtaining' Salvation. Salvation comes by faith in Christ ALONE.

All the OT believers had faith in the COMING Of the Messiah, in the Promise that He would one day come, believers now, live in faith that the Messiah has already come, and the Messiah is Jesus.

If we could never break the 10 commandments we would have no need of a Savior.

The very first commandment we break every day.

Thou shalt have NO other Gods before me.

When we put other things or even people before God in our daily activities.

We break the commandment of coveting when we want something that someone else has. It doesn't have to be theirs but we want one just like it.

We lie, even when we tell someone we like a new haircut even though we really don't like it. Or when we don't say something in order to NOT hurt their feelings. It's still a lie.

God knew we couldn't keep His commandments, He knew we would sin, so He had to provide the way, if we could provide our own way, How could God get the glory? We would take the glory for ourselves which would again be breaking the FIRST commandment of not having any Gods before God.

So though we are living in faith, we are not living in faith that we can save ourselves or that we can live by the 10 commandments, we are placing our faith in Christ that HE is the Messiah, the Savior, The one whom God sent to pay THE price, HIS PRICE, death, that we could not pay ourselves.

We do things and try to keep the commandments not to obtain salvation, but because of our salvation, as an act or outward expression of our salvation, because God has changed us on the inside, not because we have done or could do anything for ourselves.

God even gives us our faith, we don't even have that without Him.

Very, very, strange.

I answered this post and another last week and today, neither one of the posts that I made are here....weird.

Anyways...TR---thanks again for taking the time to send me that link. You have some very interesting points about the 10 Commandments that I will think about...