Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
Here is the hypothetical situation - A WH wants to return to the marriage, wants to commit to recovery. WH has met the request for NC with OW. WH would like to start MC. WH shows up at home having met or in the process of meeting all requirements, boundaries, whatever requested from BW. He is proving himself.

What is the response to this from BW? Does she say, Glad you're back, let's go get a pizza? Does she say, I'm so glad you're here? Does she say, let's get it on? Does she say let's call everyone we know and tell them we're going to be working things out? Does she do anything? What are some good responses?

I have no idea what to say or do in this situation. I am the kind of person that would listen and be so stunned that I wouldn't know what to do or say and so I would probably not do or say anything. OR, I might say something nasty or sarcastic or inappropriately comical. I would probably want to rush things. What is rushing? What isn't rushing?

What about the whole sex thing? Let's say all tests come back normal and so there's no fear of disease. I'm very scared of trying to have sex with him again. Very scared NOT to. I would probably really mess up there as well - do or say something wrong like rush to be intimate or not move quickly enough or not respond nicely.

Inertia is not my friend. I'm better able to think and act if I have some kind of idea of where to start. When the one you love wants to come home and has done all that he (or she) can to prove himself worthy of a new start, how do you start the very beginning of the new start?

Sally

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
Sally, have you read the book After the Affair by Janis Abrams? That might be a good place for you to start. It really gives you some insight into the WS mind and IMHO what they need to feel safe as well as a look into the BS mind for the WS.

Not sure what else to say as I rushed things too many times and had too many false recoveries.


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
ff,

Thank you so much for the tip. You're funny. I've learned and continue to learn quite a bit from you... I've not been posting in your thread because I have nothing to give but love and support. I think I am at one of life's crossroads today. Maybe I need to scootch over and give more love and more support! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I realize this is all hypothetical but hey, I wasn't prepared for the hypothetical before the A. I've learned a lot about how much I took for granted. Don't want to do that again. Now I want to have some ideas and maybe even guidelines. I know I'll make mistakes, but if there are BIG, glaring ones that seem to be a pattern for folks here, well, I'd like to learn from that.

Many thanks again,
Sally

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
I understand, Sal. You want to be prepared so you can act/not react. Very smart! {{Sally}}


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
I know I can't really be prepared, but I don't want to be a nasty bint during this either. Phil has had a way of doing or saying something, and not even a negative thing, that catches me off guard since D-Day.

I'd find myself stuttering and/or shaking, fleetingly hoping he isn't noticing my reaction and then realize I was totally stuck. When that happens I feel like he loses respect for me. We've been both trying so hard to preserve that respect...

Good MBers, if you have been there, please consider sharing some of your first hour, first 6 hour successes and failures. What you thought then or in retrospect?

Sal

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 274
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 274
Hi Sally,

For what it's worth, our first hours:

For me, the nervousness/shakiness finally disappeared because I didn't really care anymore. I remember laughing bitterly when I told him that I'd filed for divorce and he asked if there was anything he could do to change it -"sure," I said, "but last I checked you were still having an affair." Recovery has been the smoothest when I've held it in the least regard, to be honest. I think that's because what I said or did was a reflection of how I really felt inside and not of what I thought he wanted to see.


FWH and I were seeing each other during the "process of meeting requirements" (we have kids, so although we continued to live separately, there were kid exchanges and fairly soon he would watch the kids at my house when I had to be away on one of 'my' evenings). The first hours were excrutiating and awkward. Polite chit-chat (hadn't seen each other for about four months).

Once I'd laid out all the requirements on the table and could see they were being met, the comfort level started to increase. I'd come home and we'd talk for awhile before he left - as awkward as it was (that darn elephant in the room), it was good to be conversing again.

Very, very slowly we built up our time together. The first night together came when we'd spent a late evening together (my place - I refused to sleep in the bed of adultery - ahhh, just had a lovely mental picture of throwing that mattress onto the pile at the dump). I said, "I'll sleep in the same bed but no touching." He agreed and kept his word.

The physical stuff built up just as slowly as the emotional stuff. Awkward? Yup. Did I cry after the first time? Yup. But by then, there was enough of a foundation laid that I knew there was merit in facing it.

I kinda like the "glad you're here, let's go get pizza." Presumably you've outlined the requirements for recovery, so there's no need to hash those out right at the get-go. "Let's get it on" is premature, both for your own emotional health and because you want confirmation of being clean from STDs. Calling all your friends and family is also premature (sigh - the spectre of "false recovery"). Tell the people you would lean on if recovery goes sour. In our case, we've been together for eight months and some members of the circles beyond immediate family and friends are still unaware that we are together.

The bottom line is that your reaction will not matter in the grand scheme of things. You're allowed to be "caught off guard" because it is brand new territory. Neither of you should be disrespecting Sally for being a bit jumpy around someone who has destroyed life as she knows it. If he wants to recover, he'll work through it.

There is NO rush. If you are uncertain about something (especially sex), then you're not ready. Be kind to yourself and do not disparage yourself for being uncertain.

All the best,

G


BS (me) - 34
FWH (him) - 35
Married 15 years
D-day - December 20, 03
Recovered
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
Griselda,

I'm speechless. Thank you for recounting your experience. I printed your post so that I learn it and know it until it's second-nature to think this way.

Thank you so much!
Sally

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
G, ff, and from afar, froz,

Thanks you three for what you gave me yesterday. I slept on it and woke up stronger. I think the big lesson I took away was something I already knew but didn't trust for myself.

And that is that I need to trust in myself. Duhhhhh. I'm always saying that we are going to make mistakes and that's OK and when it comes to me and my mistakes, I'm still so terrified of making them that I freeze up. Or I make mistakes and then think I can't change my perspective.

I'm tolerant and receptive about giving other people room to make mistakes, learn and grow to the point of being unhealthy. I'm still just burshing the edges of the realization that sometimes it's possible to be too giving.

At the same time I am still not as giving and forgiving of myself as I should be. I so rarely give myself the "break" I'm willing to give almost anyyone else. Trying to do better.

froz, your courage sharing your insights about control, letting go and all the different discoveries you're making about yourself and others is helping me a lot. Your willingness to show me your upset has a way of teaching me all kinds of things.

Only a real friend has the courage to risk friendship by getting upset and sharing it. Maybe my lack of upset, my willingness to forgive and forget, or my habit to simply forget? instead of fighting it out has been my downfall in relationships more than I've known?

Going to think about griselda's letter some more, froz's words some more and faithful's teaching by example much, much more.

Thanks again, Sally

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Personally Sally

I wouldn't take him back unless he came with an engagement ring in his hand while willing to happily commit himself to pre-MARRIAGE counseling for 6 months. Do not live together until "I do".

Do you want a buyer or a renter?

You are either worth his 100% or you will settle for less.

You know my position. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
You know what? I'm there. I just didn't know how to write it out first without coming off as silly. Thought I'd be trying to explain it all and the question I wanted input on would get lost among the imagined 2x4s <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sal

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Quote
Maybe my lack of upset, my willingness to forgive and forget, or my habit to simply forget? instead of fighting it out has been my downfall in relationships more than I've known?

If you were an object for sale... where might we find you?

a garage sale?
Wall-Mart?
Macy's?
Hardware store?
Nordstroms?

I think you under-value what you are worth and you "audition" for a relationship instead of becoming a particular consumer who knows how to choose rather than be chosen.

Why wait around hoping to be chosen when you yourself are such a high-value "it girl" ....?

NEWSFLASH

YOU ought to be auditioning other men ... not waiting to be picked out by a man who has treated you so badly ~without~ even having the decency to ask you to marry him!!!

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
trust me

I may have the guts to say this

but I am sure others are thinking the same thing

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,023
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,023
We've had this conversation before and I think Sally gets this. Living together for 9 years of uncertainly was not in her or his best interest.

Darn that psychologist for advising her against marriage years ago.


Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
MB Weekend March 2003
2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Quote
It's the middle ground I've thought about occasionally with trepidation.

You accept the middle ground as the end zone.

I was astonished ... truely I was ... when you took a bite out of BR when she pointed out to you that a "modified Plan B" was useless .

I have been thinking about that exchange and trying to dig out some kernel of truth and all I can come up with is this...

middle ground is where you stop and stumble ... accepting a "modified marriage" is not unlike accepting a "modified Plan B".

You are worthy of a full monte Plan B and a full on marriage. Or do you disagree?

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Quote
I am very scared of trying to have sex with him again.

Here's another one of my wildly non-politically correct opinions !!!

[b]NO SEX WITH PHIL UNTIL MARRIAGE

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
[/b]Pep,

I'll tackle your input RE: BR apart from the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Then I'll come back here.

Thanks,
Sally

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
OK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gonna be clear - I am not an object for sale and don't want to explore that analogy. So skipping to the meat of your point Pep, it may be your perception that I devalue myself because I choose things for myself that are contrary to what other people think would be better for me.

This is one of the problems I got into with the shrink that really damaged ME. It also damaged Phil. It also damaged our R. But mostly, it damaged me. Now that I've been away from that VERY sick influence I'm able to say this. You may not agree with it, but it's not currently a topic availble for argument...

How I choose for myself and what I choose for myself are among the gifts I give to myself. Right or wrong in the end, the value of these gifts I give myself, is akin to valuing myself. I am choosing to explore and grow and decide for myself what is the best possible choice for me at that particular place in time. To me, that is the highest value I could place on myself.

Sometimes I choose poorly. There have been extremely few times in my life where I was unable to choose for myself or was influenced or even manipulated (as I was with the shrink) to act against my better sense or even just an innate sense of right and wrong. I've been pretty lucky that way. Lucky to be raised to value myself that highly, lucky to be raised knowing I could consider options and choose and then later, perhaps choose again.

Pep, you see me devaluing myself when I choose poorly or consider an option that you deem as sub-standard and that is not what I see at all. I have a different way of looking at the world. I don't think that making bad choices makes me bad or wrong. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is wrong either. Just different. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sal

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,747
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,747
What defines Marriage?

Good question.

Raising some good questions.

If my FWH, had an emotional/physical encounter with someone other than ME, and we weren't married, does that not make it an A?

What about couples of the same sex that can't legally marry?

I'm curious now.

In some countries, it's acceptable for a man to marry and bed many wives, yet this isn't infidelity.


DDAY 2/25/04
Plan A 3/1/04
Recovery started 4/14/04....still going strong
.... and quite happy.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 249
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 249
I think it depends on the couple and the laws of the state. I know here in Texas when I went to have WSo committed to the rehab I had filled out the paperwork as Commonlaw wife...after all we were engaged, we had committment rings and we had lived together for 5 yrs.

The judge sat me down and explained the laws of Texas to me. Here there is no "common law" marriage anymore. It is either ceremonial marriage or non-ceremonial marriage...interesting eh? So technically then I suppose in the eyes of Texas, we are married, which therefore constitutes that he is having an A. I have a friend who just ended his non-ceremonial marriage and lost more financially than I have seen in most divorces...even lost the dogs..both of them.

Both WSo and I had very rough previous marriages...we were initially not ever going to marry again...but through the years we learned to love again and trust again. We decided to make the step. Perhaps for all I know he had wet feet during the depression he was under...I don't know.

I think someone in a long term marriage especially with children stands a much greater chance of having their WS come home to work on the M than someone in my sitch...however there is no guarantee in life...that much I have learned.

I had an exH who was the epitome of narciccist and could have written the book on infidelity...it was WSo, completely opposite of exH who kept telling me I am not him...I will never do this to you...and LOL...look where we are today.

But if true love prevails...then we do stand the same chance as a M couple. That is where we can all hope and pray that love will survive and prevail through everyones A. Whether married or not...we still love them and they were still very much a part of our lives, our families and we still feel the same pain. WSo and I were together longer than a few of our friends marriages...they always said that our relationship was the foundation that a good marriage was built on and that we could make it through anything. Sigh....


If you love something, set it free. If it comes back its yours. If it doesn't, it never was. You can't make sense of insanity...definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Lisa
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 906
Pep this is NOT directed at you - just my attempt set the record straight for anyone who hasn't taken the time to read the history...

1. Using the audition analogy, Phil had to audition for a DAMN long time for me. During that time, I was of course, unknowingly auditioning too. I think it's fair to say that we chose each other. We were friends for a long time before we become involved romantically.

2. If anything, I think a problem I have is that I can place too HIGH a value on myself. What I was expressing is that I often don't see where I need to come down to earth a little. I am seeing that more and trying to be a little more in the dirt.

Sally


Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,027 guests, and 52 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5