Hello,
I was reading some of the other posts, and in one the issue was brought up regarding accepting responsibility for the mistakes that allowed the affair-conducive conditions to develop, but not accepting responsibility for the choice of the WS to have to affair itself.

What is the best course of action if one may have actually allowed this assumption of the BSs responsibility for the affair to be accepted? Should the BS try to bring up the subject and try to discuss/explain the difference? What would be the best way to do that?

In my situation, I did allow that we both made mistakes, and that we were both to blame for what happened. She accepted this, but over time I'm wondering if she is beginning to/still rationalizing the A based on what I had said. ie 'Yes I know I hurt him and it might be wrong, but like he said he's as much to blame as I am. If he had been there for me I would have never done this...'

How can I (and also very important, *should I*?) bring up the subject in a way that can allow me to make the distinction and lay this misconception to rest, *without* making it look like I want to point fingers or start a fight? Whenever we get into one of those heated discussions about who was wrong and how (I know, major LBs), she eventually ends up telling me to give up and find someone else. I really want to avoid stirring that kind of sentiment in her.

I suppose I am also asking if such a conversation would even be beneficial or even necessary at this point...Should I just let it go unless the subject is brought up (by her)?

So any advice, input, experiences I could get on this kind of subject would *greatly* appreciated! I truly am glad I found this site, as the people here have been immensely helpful and very supportive!

Nobody9
Here are the links to my other posts/full story if you wish to read them:
Just found out WW in A----involuntary separation (looong post) Plan A do's and don'ts

PS. I keep seeing references to 'exit affairs', but I can't find an actual definition. I'm still learning the terminology. Would anyone be willing to explain exactly what that is?

Also I thought that I'd add that our time available for communication is pretty limited right now due to the physical distance between us. Meaning that if we are lucky we get maybe 15-30 mins chatting on the PC (bad internet connection) or maybe an hour on the phone each day.
It makes making those deposits (my most successful so far seem to be the emails) more limited in frequency, and can allow the LBs to have more impact since I have no (or few) everyday kindness options open to me to counter them (ie I commit an LB and she doesn't see or hear from me for an entire day).
Not entirely sure if that changes things in my situation, or not, but I figured I'd mention it.

Nobody9

Use word pictures.

For instance ... a bank worker found guilty of embezzlement cannot use the defense that the bank just made conditions so lousy that it is (in part) the bank's fault that the worker decided to steal.

Anyone who claims "I could not help myself" ... or ... "You made me do it." .... just told you they need someone else to control them.

I used to do this with our son when he was acting out he'd say ... "I cannot stop myself from getting so mad that I break things."

Me: "OK. this means since you cannot control yourself I will have to take control over you. Right?"

.... whoa ! that put the brakes on his victim/perpetrator position .... LOL

I understand what you are saying...but, more I am wondering *how* to broach the subject at all. At the moment she doesn't like to talk about the A or what happened in any way. Any mention of it and she gets upset. So how do I initiate some sort of dialogue to make my feelings on the matter known without going over the line?

I even mention that I'm looking to get rid of some misc items or that I don't use the computer so much, she asks why. I say simply that I'm looking at some things I've been spending too much of my time with and realizing that they aren't as important anymore (the excessive computer use was always an issue with her). She starts to get upset and asks 'why do you keep focusing on the past if it's already done?' (to which my mental response is a simply 'but it isn't done and it isn't in the past')

At that point I understand that the best response is a simple calm response saying that it doesn't have anything to do with changing the past, but the future...but in the heat of things it gets a bit difficult.
It seems she is really uncomfortable discussing the A. I'm not sure if I should try to encourage/push the dialogue there, or just leave it alone....

If it's best to go ahead an initiate discussion on the subject, that's what I'll do (actually I'd prefer to discuss the issue rationally as opposed to pretend that it isn't happening). On the other hand, I can see that it may be possible that repeated broaching of the subject may be seen as an annoying behavior to her (at least in her current mindset). She actually complained to the OM that I made her feel terrible when I brought up the subject. Also that when I said that I wouldn't bring it up anymore, I would go ahead and do it anyway...Perhaps that was a mistake to begin with to promise that, perhaps not. I have to think that it's a bit unhealthy/unfair to forbid any discussion of the A, but I don't want to end up pushing her away by acting too rashly.

Looking at how we interact and some of her actions when we were last together, I do feel that we've got a real chance to make this work. I've still got a lot to learn, though and I don't want to mess up by acting too quickly/unwisely.

Nobody9

and ???? This stops you because ????

To expand a bit on what Pepperband said: Your wife gets "upset" because she has learned that you will quickly back down if she does. In other words, she is bullying you into shutting up. Virtually all WS do the same thing.

You have to stop being afraid of her anger. Your questions and your right to know about what's been going on in your own life are NOT the problems here. Her lying and cheating are the problems here.

Stop letting her scare you. She's counting on it, and so is the OM.
Mulan

That's a *very* good point, from both of you. And essentially answers my questions (in another post) extremely well.

From what I've been told, it seems like the best way to open dialogue and continue to Plan A at the same time is to ask questions about what is happening in the affair and why it happened. Ask her what she was thinking at the time. Ask her what she is planning. Explain calmly how I feel about the situation and what I would like to see happen.

So I understand about not worrying about making her upset. As I've mentioned before, though, our time in contact is extremely limited to maybe an hour a day, tops. So I need to either limit how much time I spend on the subject to a few minutes here and there interspersed with other topics, or just keep it confined to one 'session' every so often, unless the subject comes up on its own. I want to 'carrot-and-stick' her, not bash her repeatedly over the head with a club (I'm saying this to make this my mantra). If I start to do that she may just avoid me entirely, which may be all too easy to do considering the circumstances.

timing is important

know her menstrual cycles

I'm NOT kiddding !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No,no,no.

Nobody,

I am sorry you seemed to have found this mistaken and misleading thought process still going on here at MB.It's one of the things that has always upset me and it also was stamped with other descriptions like, "Creating an atmospehere...", " the marriage being in this state....","creating an environment.." etc,etc.

The problem with this thinking is that is DOES put blame on the BS.No matter how many discussions we have had in the past about this and how many times I have refuted it personally and how many WS's bring up that they do take responsibility,it still exists.

I have found that many people don't even know what "state" their marriage is in so to go back and say it was X,Y or Z isn't fair.Then,if there is some kind of "environment" that is truly toxic or just uncomfortable to one spouse they have a responsibility to talk to their spouse,not withdraw from the marriage in self pity and doubt and start looking for answers elsewhere and unilaterally making decisions in the marriage.It has been my experience here that most WS's have pulled out of the marriage long before the BS has any idea the WS was thinking such thoughts.

If the marriage,environment or atmosphere at home is so bad then there are more appropriate and less selfish and hurtful options than cheating.You try to work on your marriage or get divorced,not cheat.It just cannot be and shouldn't be an option for anyone anymore but unfortunately cheating is on the rise.

If I were you I would keep the focus on actions.WS's will,for a long time,especially those that are not remorseful,continue to seek out reasoning to explain why they did what they did.The first person targeted is usually the BS of course.We are the cause of all their troubles and their miserable life so they just had to go out and seek comfort with someone else,someone who really understands and can commiserate them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stick to the plans and leave blame,on either side,out of the discussions for now.You can tell your WW how her actions have hurt you but use *I* statements,not "You did this..." "You can't expect that..." etc.Blame will be a never ending battle and it's not where you want to pour your energies into.

Good luck.

O

Hahahahahahah. Yes this is very true. When that happens I'll be nothing but the kind, supportive, and loving husband I am. Too bad I won't be there to be able to console her during that time like I usually do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No stress from me though, for sure!

That last post was in response to Pepperband BTW, I hadn't realized that that other post had slipped in there.

Octobergirl, that's something that I'm just realizing and keep having to remind myself, and I tend to forget at times. I can't accept responsibility for what she did, only for what I did.

I also agree about the blame game, as we've already taken a couple rides on that not-so-merry-go-round. That would be something that would be best addressed in the presence of a counselor. I'll just simply state that we are responsible only for our own actions whenever/if she brings up the blame issue.

Nobody,

I have read more than once that "You may be 50% responsible for the problems in your marriage, but she/he is 100% responsible for the A.

Also, from what I have read (BSs seem to read mucho), an exit affair is one where the WS wants out of the M and picks an exit A to "EXIT" from the M when discovered. And they don't try real hard to hide the A for that reason. They start the exit A knowing that they do not want to stay married.

k

I was reading through some of the posts, and in one thread someone mentioned that some people that receive advice don't acknowledge that it was given. I realized that I had done this here...I'm so sorry! I'd completely forgotten about this post.

Krusht,
I appreciate the quote you'd mentioned (it's a very important thing to understand), and I've been working at keeping that in mind so I don't drive myself nuts overanalyzing the past. I'm more just trying to concentrate on the future, and what I can do on my end.

Thanks a lot!
Nobody9

So,nobody9,

How are things going?

O

Octobergirl:
Well, on my end I've been doing a lot better. Feeling a bit more stable. Whether I would feel so if she and I were right next to eachother as opposed to separated over such a long distance is debatable.

At times I get triggered by various things (finding a picture of her and the OM, or discovering that she does indeed have a second email that she's been hiding from me, while telling me that she can almost never get online...), which usually results in one of my marathon posts on my other thread allowing me to get my frustrations out. Then I go back and read them a week later with a calmer mind and see how negative I'd been feeling at the time. Negative especially about my W, but that being heavily colored by my mood and frustration.
I suppose I make it seem like she's totally unremorseful and uncaring about what's going on, but in actuality there have been moments when she seems aware of the damage she's doing, and how she feels about herself. For example I wrote her an email telling her how I thought she was beautiful, that I cared for her, and thanked her for being in my life (trying to make some deposits in her LB-admiration EN wise). She replies saying,'Thank you for saying these sweet things about me, but I'm really not so much (a good person). It seems I'm in your life only to cause you pain. You're a marvelous person who's always been kind and special to me and I'll never forget that...'. Kind of took me by suprise. When I spoke to her again I told her that we had many years together that had brought me much happiness, and those are the years that mattered. Moreover, that it her actions or choices that were the issue, not necessarily her as a *person*. (Hoping to make the impression that she has a *choice* in the matter, and can choose differently; and that there is always the hope for forgiveness) I'm not sure if I really worded that as well as I could have, nor how she received it, but there's no way of knowing...

Realized some of the issues that we've had in our M, and how we'd dealt with them (or rather didnt') *CA*. It's also occured to me that this may go deeper than what has happened in just our marriage, and that may make it even more difficult or even impossible, depending on how my W decides to look at it. I could be proven wrong (happily) however, but there's no way of knowing until all is said and done.

Conversations with the W have been mostly friendly and dealing with everyday stuff, with some heavy discussions interspersed that also ended up in my other thread. Sometimes I mess up and LB, sometimes it's hard to tell, and other times I manage to keep myself under control. Been mostly worried about the kids, now that they're starting to get pulled into this (knowledge about the OM), which I've made her aware of, as well as making her aware of how her A affects me. She gets defensive when I bring up these things, but that's to be expected, so I don't (or try to) let it bother me too much.

Nobody9