Hi FL,

How was the conversation with your H ?

I know what you mean about patience being the hardest thing.
Its also difficult with no MC to help with discussions of the tough issues. I think if you have faith in what you have learnt about communication, accepting his emotions and directly expressing your needs and feelings as well, you can be fairly certain that the conversation is only going to help and can't make anything worse!

Hello,
I'm sorry about my english.
FL I hope that you'll have better days with your husband.

I feel that I'm one of the men you're looking for. "The man without any passion". In fact this is not true. My real passion in my life was my love to my WW. I'm 31 years old and we don't have kids but I see my father and me when I read all this stuff about FL's husband.

My father is a real simple man. He doesn't need many things to be happy. My mother she's kinda person that wants to dance, travel (like FL) etc.. my father he's happy with what he got and he doens't want more. His only passion is his books (Before, his passion was his kids). And his happiness come from his goodness. He's happy when he makes other people happy. He can be also happy with little things like a rare bird or a beatiful tree. I think this comes from his parents which were farmers. They had to be happy with minimum things.
My father as an intelligent man tries to work on my mom's ENs. But they have very different personality (as FL and her husband I think).

Me, I'm like my father, the life is a place that I can learn more about myself and my environment. I was a real fan of computer games (since 1982) But as my wife didn't like it, I gave it up. My real passion was to share my life, all the good and bad things, with a person that I love and to have a happy family with kids. The happiness of my wife was the most important thing. Now I lost this passion also after the A. My IC told me that I have to find other things in my life. I have to be more egoist. Putting someone in the center of my life isn't a good thing.

Now I think everyday about the divorce. I'm very confused as she was my dear wife and I was loving her but now she's a stranger and she is and (was) so weak that she can do it again. I don't want to live through this again. I can't leave her also as she doesn't want it. I really doesn't know why she doesnt want that I leave her. And I don't want to make a mistake in my life. It seems that my expectations are so low that I can live my life any way. (As my father I don't need much to be happy)
The SF is not going good for us also. I don't think about the diseases. But I lost my passion for it. Because whenever I become more close to her, I feel the pain more deeply. I remember what she did to me. I'm trying to read Dr. Harley's SA I hope it'll help me.

I hope that my situation can help FL to understand her husband.

hi all,

there is so much to read here... so much to respond to and i'm feeling overwhelmed.

i read the post on sex by pep first, suppose that is part of the reason i am struggling now. i tried to post a reply to that thread but it turns out, i really had nothing to add, i just feel so screwed up.

ok, so i did talk to H about SF, he says he needed to hear that i understand how much at physical risk i put him and that i will not do that again. i said i did and i would not. he says he believes me. he says he really does not think i will cheat on him again, he is convinced i am being sincere, but on the outside chance somehow i did, he was not sure i would tell him. i told him i am very commited to honesty. he said ok and we should have SF. so it was a short and straight forward talk. but also very unemotional and i'm feeling even weirder about being intimate with him now. thankfully it was not an option this weekend (time of month) but what happens when that reason is gone. i'm not sure i want to be close to him. i'm thinking i'm going to have to force myself because withdrawaling certainly is not the answer. but given our lack of working on us, i do fear trying to have SF is just going to make me feel worse. how did i screw things up so badly???

i also asked him about his ring. he says that he does not want any pressure about wearing it, he just does not want to and therefore he is not going to. he is not sure if and when he might change his mind. he says i am reading way too much into him not wearing it. he says it should not be a big deal. he says we have bigger issues to deal with than him wearing his ring or not. he knows how it makes me feel but says that is something i'm going to have to deal with myself.

cv, thanks for trying to understand the ring issue. but sorry i don't get it. are you saying that at 20 months you are still not sure if you want to recover and stay married? yes, your marriage vows were broken and by not wearing your ring, what that says to me is you do not want to re-establish those vows. it's a punishment. "you screwed up and i'm not letting you fix it"
so why are you still with your H?

CV, i know this sounds harsh, but i really don't understand.

but it's not like that CV, because you are married to him, you have not choosen to divorce him, but you are not choosing to be his wife. doesn't that sound wrong?? yes, having an A was extremely wrong too. but that does not IMHO mean the other person gets to do wrong things now. so your H says he is ok with you not wearing it, and yet he looks to see if you are wearing it, so it must mean something to him, i think you should pay attention to hardhats post. it's a choice you are making everyday. and that choice is... i'm not really your wife. i'm just still living with you because that is easier than leaving. that is what i think my H is doing.

i hate how i am sounding right now, cuz i am feeling resentment and a huge logical part of me is saying... you have no business feeling resentment or putting on any demands. and yet i still feel mad that he is not really making a decision.

CN, i HATE that pink floyd song, very bad memory. it's not really possible to become comfortably numb. it's called letting your insides die and that is not comfortable at all.

smur, i applaude your strength. every ounce of me is just wanting to distance myself from him now. and that seems so wrong of me and unfair. but the desire to not hurt is so strong. and, right or wrong, i hurt!!!

mulan, i am very sorry your H is not repentant and continues to hurt you. i can certainly understand your desire to not wear your ring.

relator, same to you. i'm not sure if your WH is still in an A or not. i'm sorry, i don't know your story.

bob, thanks for thinking of H and I. as you can see, my emotions are a bit all over the place today. remember two weeks ago when he blew me off to go play golf with the guy that had a business idea for him? and how H was so anxious to hear said thought such that he could not wait till the next time they golfed? and so he choose to break his date with me instead..... well, guess who he is golfing with again today? and guess how much he has done with that business idea? not a thing. it was all a bunch of bull.


john, thanks for sharing your story. i am sorry you are in such pain. there is a big difference between your story and mine though... that was not and is not the case in my situation.

ok, i seem to be getting more and more negative here. i better stop now.

I'm not much help darl'.

I'm feelin' a bit pathetic and want to be loved and made to feel special too, just like you.

I dunno why Squid won't do that any more than you do your H.

Affairs are crap, but y'know RECOVERY is crap too ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All blessings FL. Really. All blessings.

thanks bob.

i think my ranting tired me out some. it is so much more tiring to be neg than positive. i'm not going to say anything to H about this whole golf thing. i'm not going to get mad at him today for blowing me off 2 weeks ago. that day is gone. i told him at the time i was disappointed with his choice but at the same time, there will be another day for us to play raquetball. i forgave him for that hurt then and so it's silly of me to take that forgiveness away now.

i know how this stuff works... ya know what i mean?? MB has taught me so much, i can't be acting like i don't know anymore. if i want to feel close to him (something i am really NOT feeling right now), i have to do loving things towards him, not wait for him to do them towards me. so simple but so HARD!!!! but hard or not, i am choosing to stay married and i'm going to be a good wife even if it kills me!!! (ok, i'm being silly saying it that way, just in case you couldn't tell)

on a serious note, i am going to be pleasant when i get home tonight. i'm going to smile at him, tell him i love him, ask him how his day was and just be over all a pleasant person to be around because that is the type of person i am choosing to be. and while i'm at it... i'll even be pleasant with my DS even as i have to beat him into submission regarding doing his homework!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FL, no offense taken by me. This is the 2nd time CN has kind of told me I'm full of crapolla. I'm stubborn in the sense that I march to my own drummer. Anybody here can tell me anything respectfully. I'll take it in, think about it, in this case talked to H, and then I'll do what I think is right for me. If H was going nuts over the ring I'd have to reevaluate, but he isn't.

OK, let's see if I can explain this any differently. Some BSs here still feel Med after an A. They look at it as part of the "for better or worse" part of the vows. Not me. Never have! Of course we are Med legally, but the spiritual M was broken for me. I love H. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't. I don't think I'm a BS who would stay just because it was easier for me financially. My boys are what has kept me in the fight for so long also. I very likely would have bailed during his withdrawal if it weren't for them.

FL, you wrote:

what that says to me is you do not want to re-establish those vows. it's a punishment. "you screwed up and i'm not letting you fix it."

but it's not like that CV, because you are married to him, you have not choosen to divorce him, but you are not choosing to be his wife. doesn't that sound wrong?? yes, having an A was extremely wrong too. but that does not IMHO mean the other person gets to do wrong things now. so your H says he is ok with you not wearing it, and yet he looks to see if you are wearing it, so it must mean something to him, i think you should pay attention to hardhats post. it's a choice you are making everyday. and that choice is... i'm not really your wife. i'm just still living with you because that is easier than leaving. that is what i think my H is doing."

FL, why do you think I'm punishing H? By the way, I don't have any desire to punish him. I treat him very well. I have worked very hard at recovery with him. We have literally spent thousands of dollars coaching with Steve Harley, MC, and IC for both of us. All direct consequences of his A. I have hung in here as patiently as possible as my screwed up H has slowly returned to the M. He's been over OW for quite a while, but it did screw him and us up quite a bit. These are the choices I make every day.

H screwed up big time. From the very beginning I wondered if he had what it takes to recover from this. So far he has. Several months ago I asked him if he was able to deal with my ambivalence, and he said yes. What's wrong with the BS having ambivalence? For 9 months he cut me out of his life. He abandoned me when my dad was very ill, dying, and after he died. He allowed OW to be a part of my dad's funeral. I'm sticking with him and showing him love after all of that? This whole thing has been a part of my life now since May/03. My life was diverted onto a path I had no control over and don't want to be on. I had to support H and hold him when he was crying because he missed OW. If H can't deal with my ambivalence, well sorry. He has a choice. He can tell me adios. People evaluate whether they want to commit to getting Med to the person they are dating. Does that mean they don't love the person if they need more time? That's how it is for me? I want to put the ring back on at some point, but I don't feel it in my gut yet. Hope that explains things a little better.

FL, I do believe you have some choices here. I say this all the time to myself and also BSs who don't feel like their FWSs are doing their part in recovery. That is that we all need to be clear ourselves about what we need and want in our Ms. Then we have to ask ourselves what we will and won't settle for. We can only control ourselves and not what our Ss will or won't do. For example, if you feel like you and your H need MC, coaching with one of the Harleys, etc., are you willing to talk to your H about it. If he says he won't do anything to recover the intimacy, but just wants to stay together for the kids, is that OK with you? Or would you rather live alone than do that?

You are the one who screwed up. You need to understand his pain. Yet, it does take 2 to recover. Does your H want to recover? Do you both have the same vision of the kind of M you would like? Only you 2 can answer these questions. But you don't have to stay if he has no desire to put the effort into recovery. If he does want to recover, but is just really messed up now, hopefully you both can acknowledge this and you can be patient with him.

Sorry! I hope I didn't babble too much. CV

CV, you didnt babble too much at all, i very much appreciate your sharing. your points are very clear and not really so horrible. i could see my H saying the exact same words actually.

i guess my biggest problem is that i don't believe my H wants to recover. actually that is not true. i don't know what kind of marriage he wants. i really don't know. and to be honest, i'm not even sure i know how to explain my own vision of marriage anymore. i feel like i need to lead us but i don't know how. and MC is 100% out of the question for him. whenever i try to ask, i'm told, i lied to him during MC before, he will not do that again.

anyway, like i told Bob, my earlier rant tired me out to the point of just not wanting to be negative. besides, i'm getting tired of having people say my posts are too sad to read. this is my only life and i am tired of wasting it being a poop.

FL

I can't hope tp speak for CV or anyon ebut me, but I must say that regarding rings, all or most WS don;t GAS about their rings while active in affairs and soon thereafter, but if BS are ambivalent about wearing the thing that signifies the contract that the WS has destroyed many FWS are hurt and cite 'punishment'.

Interpretation is everything IMO.

CVs interpretation is that the contract the ring represents is gone at the wish of her H. Something else may come to replace it but the old will never be again.

I fully understand that.

In my case my ring reminded me that I am married " for better or worse". That time was SURELY a 'worse' but I wasn't going to take that ring off until all hope was lost and I was divorced or one of us was dead.

It was incidental that it also gave Squid a huge shock unbeknownst to me at the time.

I bought Squid a new ring because the old one wouldn't fit on her finger because of a longstanding karate injury. I'd caught squid hurting herself trying to fit her wedding band on with soap and pushing.

I had a new one made for her in Vegas last January when I was working there.

She loved it.

Interestingly, Squid's finger has responded well to doing less karate and her old ring fits her again now. But she chooses to wear the new one. I wonder why?

* Who am I kidding? It could be the DIAMONDS on the new one D'OH !! * <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This thread made me wonder what would happen if i stopped wearing my wedding ring.

I think Squid would be eviscerated. Sure means alot to FWS it seems.

Well, I see your point, but I surely disagree. To my mind, becoming comfortably numb is simply exercising the ability to detach. One moves emotionally away from a painful situation to one of less intense pain. It is kind of like a good anaesthetic. The pain is still there but it is managed.

It is kind of looking at life through a lense, keeping a distance and not letting it touch you too often. I've become an observer of life more that a direct participant. I still involve myself in my day to day activities, but I do so with a certain distance that allows me to not be attached to the outcomes. I've come to realize that I'm going to be O.K. no matter what happens in my life. My wife may leave or stay, the choice is ultimately hers. Neither path will cripple me. My life is here and now. It is all that I have, this single moment. I refuse to waste any more of it.

Bob, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with the WS and the ring thing. There are many WS here that refuse to wear their ring also . . . I think that isn't very helpful either. I guess it just doesn’t matter. After all, the ring is just a hunk of metal and if it meant something to the WS they wouldn’t have had the affair in the first place. Kind of like the marriage vows. If they meant something then both partners would always have shown love and honored their partners. So, since we all have probably have fallen short of the love and honor thing, I guess vows don’t really mean a lot either.

I know that Finally did some pretty lousy things, but you know what, she stopped doing lousy things. It seems to me that her husband is still treating her pretty shabbily. She put her stick down along time ago and stopped hitting him, I wonder when he will drop his stick.

Look, I don't know if they can recover. I tend to thing that that isn't the most probable outcome. Some hurts are too deep. I just don't want to watch Finally slowly torn apart by someone that has no intention of saving the marriage, but is too afraid just to end it. If her husband has no intension of treating her as a loving wife again, if she is to be some type of sexual thrall that is only good for giving OS, I would like to see her move on away from this amazingly degrading situation.

If the BS pain is just too much to endure then do the WS a favor and file for divorce. Don't drag it out. The WS cannot change the past. They can only move forward and behave better. That is it. There is no recompense for a past misdeed(s) of this type. Nobody wins from infidelity.

There are many WS here that refuse to wear their ring also . . . I think that isn't very helpful either.

I don't know of any FWS who chose not to wear their ring after d-day CN. But that doesn;t mean you're wrong, of course.
My proposition was that WS seemed to value the wearing of BS rings as a result of their renewed valuation of marriage and icons thereof owing to their temporary disregard of same , but it has nothing but anecdotal support.

Looks about right to me though. Prob'ly wrong.

CN,

and you think this is a good thing???

regarding the ability for my marriage to heal. we are not quite 1yr yet, from what i hear, that is not enough time yet. don't worry, i'm no longer going to participate in one-way SF. he can't treat me degradingly unless i allow it, i'm not going to allow it anymore.

as for his ability to heal, i'm going to have to keep going on faith for a while. i don't know what my time limit is but i am sure i have one. i think it is pretty far off still. if nothing else, it does allow our kids to have a family environment.

One case in point.

I didn't wear my ring for quite some time after I left. I wasn't sure I wanted to be married anymore and I hated looking at the thing. My wife said that I continue to hurt her by not wearing it. So I began to wear it. It didn't feel right to me anymore, but I did it.

When things got better, we got new rings. The old one are in a box somewhere.

Finally,

I don't know if it is a good thing (I don't see it as good or bad really, it just is), but it is much more manageable for me and, as Martha would say, that is a good thing. I am much more grounded. I don't let other people's behavior and actions affect me as much. I can be happy regardless of how others are behaving towards me. I don't have as many expectations of others so I am seldom disappointed.

You are still early in recovery and these things take time. I wish you, and your family, all the best.

thanks CN. i'm not giving up.

FL,

I think I would quit worrying about this. You need to set your own boundaries and if the way he wants or does not want SF crosses your boundary speak up. I am also wondering if he is afraid to ask for a divorce but wants to push you to be the "bad guy" and file for the divorce.

I realize he has been betrayed on many levels by you, including with one of his friends. You have made him look and feel like a complete fool over the years. There is no sense sugar coating this. However, given all of that, given that you have been very honest with him, YOU did NOT give up your right to leave the marriage anymore than he did.

I am not advocating divorce for you two because there is a lot of healing to do, but I am advocating that you NOT let him cross your boundaries especially ones that reasonable and you two have talked about. He has choices to make, and so do you, and you both will for the rest of your life.

Now matter who cheated, who was hurt, who....whatever, you BOTH have reason to expect to be in a marriage where you are at least somewhat happy if not delirious.

Recovery is a very narrow road. You have not been on it for a year yet, but as time moves on remember you BOTH have and can make decisions about your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

JL, you have told me a million times to quit worrying. i would be so much better off if i could really learn to take that advice.

I WORRY TOO MUCH!!!!

ya know, you all only see what i talk about. last night he told me he is not just here for the kids and i do believe he is sincere. i just need more patience and less worry!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FL, did you see the thread KaylaAndy started yesterday? I will look for it and bump it for you. You need to read it.

FL,

You know how I know so much about worrying to much? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I worry too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> FL, give this time. But set your boundaries and above all be honest with him about your boundaries and everything else. Oddly, you standing your ground may well do more to rebuild his trust than you realize.

God Bless,

JL

Hi,

FF, i had not read KaylaAndy's thread, i just did now, i'm going to respond there shortly. thanks for calling it to my attention, i would not have seen it otherwise.

pep is dead right about me. and i've been slowly figuring that out myself the last few days even before i read her words.

my worry is my wall.

i don't trust deep down and i don't believe i ever have. i didn't even trust in God's love until about a year ago.

the thing is, H finally made me trust him as i tried so hard to push him away. he just would not let go. he would not stop telling me we belonged together, he would not stop believing in us. for 2 1/2 long years (not to mention all the years i was probably subtly pushing him away) he just would not let me go. he was not perfect, he allowed us to be distant, he got comfortable being disconnected. he acted selfishly at times. but of course i was no where near perfect either. but when push came to shove, he really came thru for us.

now maybe he would of let go had he known what i was up to, i didn't give him that chance until i confessed. so he knows now and he is still here.

sometimes i question why, i come up with reasons that are selfish and not at all about being with me. and i have no doubt that there are probably times when he may not be feeling like he wants to be here because of me. but he holds on anyway, because thru all his own faults and weaknesses, his belief in commitment is rock solid. his commitment to me/us has never really faultered.

and here is the kicker... sometimes i think i wish he would so i could go back to not really trusting him. trusting is still too uncomfortable.

see, that is the thing, i've figured out why i've always felt outside of God's scope and somehow i was able to finally accept that His love was meant for me too. and that was huge and it allowed me to face the rest of my actions and confess. and it is comfortable to believe in God now. or at least i think that is true.

but for some reason, i cannot be comfortable believing in my H still. which is totally insane. the point is, it's not that i am uncomfortable believing in my H, i am uncomfortable believing in love in general. and that is due to my issues and not him. maybe that means i am not really believing in God enough yet.

i have to figure out how to be more comfortable believing in love.

JL, i hear ya.... keep working on COMMUNICATION!!! i will. and along with that stop worrying so much and try to relax and enjoy my life. that advice really does not seem so complicated or difficult, but i am so good at making it very complicated!!!

regarding one-way SF, i did talk to H, i did tell him how i was feeling. he told me he gets confused about what i want sometimes because there have been times when i have not wanted to be touched (suppose i never mentioned that in any post here, did i?), and that is true, i can have a hard time recieving sometimes and so i will keep it one-way on purpose. so how exactly is he suppose to know what i am thinking on a given day? i don't think he ever really understood why i would want it to be only one-way sometimes.

i explained to him that i act that way sometimes because i am feeling bad about myself and then i push those feelings on to him and conclude he is disgusted by me and does not really want to touch me. when the reality is, he has NEVER said he is disgusted by me. so when i am feeling that way, i am not to propogate that faulty thinking by re-inforcing it in my head, i need to tell him how i am feeing so he can reassure me. and if i'm not able to relax then we just dont do anything.

he has said (only sometimes) that he is worried about his physical safety and that having it be one way is his way out of that worry. but he does not want me to feel used or dirty so he agrees that needs to stop. if he is feeling worried, he needs to let me know so i can re-assure him i will not put him in physical danger ever again and if he is still not comfortable, then we just don't do anything.

i agree, we both have choices to make everyday. i do not believe he is trying to push me into being the bad guy and initiating the divorce. i really do believe he does not want a divorce. i also believe he wants me to be happy too.

i need to stop getting in the way of progress with all my insecurities. not to mention be strong enough to be able to help him heal when he needs help!!!

This is a huge revelation and really good progress for the two of you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />