For background reading:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=8&vc=1

I wanted to change the name of my thread. It was past 'editing' period of my first post. So, I am starting a new one.

Time 'flies' as they say.

Update.

My biggest challenge is still 'triggers' of my 'past' family life and H, and how to deal with the pain triggered! .... and future, for that matter: ex. hearing my boy naming WH's GF!

Also, emotionwise, if before sadness was a biggy, lately, it has been loneliness. Loneliness in the sense of not being, feeling 'connected' to anyone as opposed to being around people.

And yes, it does indirectly make me think of WH who is presently supposedly living a highly 'connected' period with OW.

Try not to dwell on it so much.

Try to appreciate the peacefulness of PLAN B instead.

I find I am more comfortable meeting friends on one-to-one rather than group gatherings. I guess I can be more honest this way. I guess a 'group' requires more of a social mask, and I don't feel up to it.

PLAN B is uneventful, and I find myself avoiding 'events' per say.

I really needed the break, I guess.

I find that now I do appreciate the beautiful sun, but am looking forward when I really really really will appreciate it!

I am not used to the 'numbness' I feel regularly. I seem to have lost some of my 'intensity' about life. I do hope it's temporary.

Luna,

I am there with you on all you just said. The numbness and loneliness is awful.

I also find it hard to be in a group setting its like you have to put on a false front.

I am sure as time passes these feelings wlll diminish and we will feel whole again.

After all of the drama and emotions its time for our spirts and bodies to take a rest and regroup to become stronger.

And stronger we need to be to be able to face what the future may hold. Be it reconciling or divorcing. Either will be emotional and hard work.

Like my brother keeps telling me time is on your side and it will get better. Just take it one day at a time....

Hurting, Thanks for your reply.

It does help to know that others are in similar situations, and it's good that we can support each other.

I have to prepare for this weekend. It's a long weekend and it's when we usually visited my parents (a day's drive away) as a family.

I now manage regular days. The new challenge is: special occasions (especially with the Xmas holidays around the corner!), and in my case, all of our 4 birthdays coming up in November and December.

All I can do to not be overwhelmed is tell myself to take it one day at a time.

((((Luna))))
Just wanted to check in so you know I'm thinking of you.

Luna,

I do pretty good myself during the week. The weekends though a a different story. Maybe now with the job it won't be so bad.

I like you am dreading the holidays. In 24 yrs this will be the first without WH. My birthday and DD birthday are on the same day Christmas eve. WH always made that day special for us I know it will be a rought time. But we will make it through them. I feel it will be hard but manageable.....

Your right one day at a time is all we can do .....

Thanks C42 and Hurting.

Nice to know you are out there.

We know that we will be fine. I am just not used to all of this pain at one time.

(((((Luna)))))

Hi Luna,

I have not posted for a long time, but wanted you to know I do check in to see how you are. (Invisible people are rooting for you, so to speak.)

You have not really mentioned what are you doing to be proactive about your "special occasions" issue.

Does anyone have any ideas for Luna?

Maybe, making new traditions and breaking old ones? (Such as NOT going on that weekend-but inviting your parents somewhere else or to see you). Planning parties with friends for those birthdays? Joining new activities?

Maybe you have already done these things?


Finally, I know it is difficult to approach other people about their kids--always a defensive topic. But having been a teenager when my mom had an affair, I feel I can't help but comment on the standard that it sets. And in light of you mentioning that your boys talk about their dad's GF...

I sincerely hope that you have approached the subject directly with your boys and been direct and clear about just HOW in appropriate it is for their father to have a girlfriend while you are still married. And even reminding them of this when they talk about her. (She is not a GF, girlfriends are something you have when you are divorced!)

My father was always silent on the issue (other than just addressing the break up of the family, his pain and sadness--which he tried to hide--he never directly talked about how wrong it was). I really wish he would have stood his ground by identifying my mom's behavior as immorale and totally inappropriate.

You don't appear to have a 'hard-line" personality, but on this matter I would hope you have drawn a hard-line for your boys.

They will need it, because their father is certainly setting a horrible standard for them.

There, I said it.

LT, thanks for the hug.

Ahuman: Thanks for posting.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
I sincerely hope that you have approached the subject directly with your boys and been direct and clear about just HOW in appropriate it is for their father to have a girlfriend while you are still married
----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I have. It's how I explained PLAN B and why I will not speak or see WH: that I don't believe dad should have a GF while he is married to mom, and that I find his decision to have a GF very hurtful. S15, who has a GF, has told me that he would never hurt her the way dad has hurt me.

quote:------------------------------------------------
You have not really mentioned what are you doing to be proactive about your "special occasions" issue.
------------------------------------------------------

Since my emotions are all over the place, I don't plan ahead too much. I prefer 'improvising' plans a day before or the morning of the same day. My approach for the 'special occasions' days for now is seeing them as 'regular days'. Not quite ready to create/committ to 'new traditions' this first time around.

I try to be kind to myself.

Just wanted to add that I agree completely with Ahuman when it comes to talking to your boys. It's easy for kids to get the idea that finding someone else and breaking up a family is just normal and okay and to be expected, and "just happens," and everybody does it sooner or later. They need to hear loud and clear from YOU that this is NOT okay or normal and that everybody does NOT do this.

They sure aren't going to hear it from WH.

Good luck
Mulan

I was 12 when my parents divorced to my mom's infidelity. Mom eventually married the OM and has been married to him for about 26 years. Still no one in my family is comfortable around him. My mom made her choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Luna, I am glad you have been forthright with your kids. I wish my parents had been. I had to figure it all out and it took 2 decades to do so. In the meantime, I nearly repeated my mom's mistake. The only difference is I did not leave for OM, I ended the A on my own. I am rooting for you too!

As for the special occasions. I agree with the idea of creating new traditions. How about asking for your kids feedback? Make it fun for them to help come up with new ways to celebrate. {{Luna}}

Mulan and FF, thanks for posting.

quote - re OW: ------------------------------------------
They need to hear loud and clear from YOU that this is NOT okay or normal and that everybody does NOT do this
---------------------------------------------------------

Mulan, my position on this issue has been made very clear to the boys because "...sure aren't going to hear it from WH". Of course, they are getting mixed messages. Society in general also seems to be 'tolerant' of A. It will force them to make a choice as adults on where they stand on this issue. They will certainly have lived the consequences of when one parent opts for an A and separation/divorce.

quote:-------------------------------------------------
As for the special occasions... How about asking for your kids feedback?
-------------------------------------------------------

Actually, that's part of my 'improvising' and not planning too far ahead. If boys are with me and have a suggestion that is doable, it's what we do! I find that it is a big adjustment for them (one week WH, one week with me) and I think they deserve all the attention I can give them.

Considering where I was at six months ago, I don't think I am doing so badly.

Dear Vets,

I need your help.

Here's a summary. WS moved out in June, but did not settle in his own appt. until August. We have two boys and they stay one week with me and one week with him. Although I gave him a PBL in mid-July, using the pretext that we needed to be talking/discussing re the boys, some unnecessary contact was happening in Aug./beginning of Sept. (No, WS does not live with OW. I believe he invests in his ‘romantic affair’ the week the boys are with me.)

I made myself clearer and since mid-Sept. it has been about one phone 'message' a week re transfer of boys only, until last night.

WS left a message about how he is finding it artificial to leave messages to each other, how he would very much like for us to be able to speak and discuss things face to face, named a few issues to discuss &#8722; one being that he has to decide whether to move out to a bigger appt. but out of the neighborhood (now lives one block away).

I thought about it, and my 'message' reply to him: if he didn’t want to leave messages then I proposed an intermediary, and as far as his moving, he knew what it would mean (like, travelling to school by car one of the boys, whereas he now walks to school) and that a discussion with me about it would only be for the form because in the end he would do what he wanted anyway.

He replied and left another message saying he understood that it was painful for me both to see or speak to him but that sooner or later we will need to find a way to coordinate things together, afterall we are both the parents of S9 and S14, they should be our priority, we will continue to be their parents, two important people in their lives, and that even though we are separated, we should find a way to collaborate better for their sake. Yes, he still finds it ‘artificial’ to leave each other messages, but that’s life, if I am not prepared to talk or see him (and so will continue leaving messages for necessary info.)

I may not be as good as some of you, but if I read between the lines, I am getting: I don’t like this business of not talking to each other, it’s not practical for me not being able to talk to you whenever I want. I also want you to OK my moving appt. because it might mean that I will need to ask you favours more often – like, at the very last minute, ask you if you can pick up S9 because I am stuck in traffic – the boys are a priority (after my need for OW, of course), and we should find a way to collaborate and be friends so that I will feel less guilty, and if we talk I will at least have the impression that you are agreeing with what I have decided to do even if it’s not what you or boys really want. On top of it, I want you to feel a little guilty because I am living in ‘guiltyland’ here and I don’t like it and wondered if it would help me to spread some of the guilt around.

I am open to other interpretations of what WS is really saying.

Unfortunately, we have had several close friends who have separated and have remained ‘good friends’, with and without children. Because of this, I am certain that WS figures it’s only a matter of time before I come around and agree to see him and have discussions with him, and so have his cake and eat it, too. I really think I need for him to get the fact that it’s not just a question of time, but rather his continuing to have an affair with the OW, and until that changes, I don’t plan to be seeing or speaking to him directly.

I am not rushing to leave another message – which already would have him wondering - but I do see this as an opportunity to remind him of this, and that right now, yes, I am still open to a reconciliation (which is true).

This is where I would like your advice. Does WS really need me to put the dots closer together. Although I am pretty sure that he feels that I am the one who doesn’t get it and that he is gone for good!

These are some possibilities I thought of:

Message A: I will be willing to see and speak to you to discuss whatever you need to discuss with me, if and when your affair with OW has ended. I do not want in any way be a part of a 'triangle' because it is much too painful for me.

But I am having second thoughts about whether I should say anything at all.

He might interpret whatever I say as my wanting to manipulate him, which would not help the situation at all.

Basically, I would really want WS to know and realize that it’s not just a matter of time before I come around, but would he hear this in fogland?

Actually, I don’t see myself maintaining the status quo forever, and if anything and WS is deadset on staying separated, I would want our parental/marital obligations formalized sometime in the future, and not the other way around. He won’t like that: he’s a freelancer, and would like to count on quick switches re taking care of boys – right now I am only asking that he ask me well in advance, but am willing to accommodate situation – not doing it for him, but for the boys! Already this is asking him a lot because it’s something he didn’t have to do before. He also would not like the paperwork and decisions involved in a ‘legal split’, be it separation or divorce. It would probably mean selling our assets and more or less it would be a ‘financial loss’ for both of us. Unfortunately, I am not there yet, but at one point, I will be bringing this issue up, because I don’t want to stay in PLAN B limboland for the rest of my life, unless I am forced to do it earlier if he starts to become financially irresponsible.

But, WS may just see all these obstacles as the price to pay for love and proof to the OW of what he is prepared to go through just to be with her. Has not OW given up 27-yr marriage and financial security for him?

I think because WS is convinced that it’s a question of time only before I come around, I think he is testing me to see if this was enough time, and try again in a few months.

In case this is so, I really feel the need to get through to him somehow, inspite of fact that WS is in fogland, that I do not intend to be in any ‘relationship’ with him as long as he is with OW (it's a price he is willing to pay right now!)

I do feel bad about the boys being stuck in the middle. I need to stay strong and not let WS get to me with ‘needs’ of boys. What the boys need is for their dad to come home, but he won’t, so….. they are already paying the price, whether I ‘collaborate directly with WS or not’. But, yes, I do have my doubts.

On the other hand, by not seeing or talking to WS, not focusing on him constantly, is beneficial for me, their mom, because she’s no longer involved in the drama of a triangle!

I am really clueless on how WS is doing/feeling, etc. nor how it’s going with OW. But if he is putting energy in moving to a bigger appt., I will have to assume that even though the ‘reality’ may not be exactly what he had planned on, he is still staying on course: keep OW and work on me to facilitate his ‘dad’ responsibilities – and that it’s only a matter of time before things get better.

I would really appreciate your thoughts.

I honestly don’t want anything to do with him really while he continues his affair with OW because he is not my H.

I know that the kind of person he is, the more I put obstacles, like insisting on no direct contact, the more he takes it on as a challenge.

It really sounded like he ‘has turned the page’, cost what it may.

So, damned if I do, damned if I don’t. But, really, no, PLAN B gives me relief by no direct contact with WS, and I find that helpful, if not for my M, for my personal recovery.

I was hoping, like others in PLAN B, for a sign that he was questioning his “move”, and it really doesn’t seem that way. The impression I am getting is that, he was hoping that things could be ‘smoother’ between us, but not anything that he isn’t prepared to live with if I am not willing, and certainly not enough to question or give up his ‘new single life, with new GF that has brought passion into his life’, and certainly not after all the trouble he has gone through so far. If ever WS had moments on the ‘fence’, he has now totally gone over the other side where he thinks ‘the grass is greener’, and it may be so, for a while at least.

I now wonder where I will be in one year from now, how I will be feeling, and how I wish I was there already.

I am at a very lonely place right now.

I am glad you are all there.

I wasn't planning to post this morning. I need to get to work soon. However, it seems like you need the support.

I think you have read your WH correctly. He'd like a guilt-free existence. Like I tell my WH, he needs to take ownership of the pain that he has caused his family. You did not choose to leave the marriage. You did not bring another person into it. If he had felt such concern for his boys, he wouldn't have broken up the family.

Do not give him permission to make you the bad guy. If he wants/needs to move, fine but HE needs to deal with the consequences. He'll need to do the driving to school, friends, sports practices, music lessons, etc, etc. You cannot be at his beck and call for childcare covereage. That's what married people do and he doesn't want to be married. Everything comes at a price. His A came at the price of losing his relationship with you. A new apt comes with the price of new responsiblities. It is one more unfair thing for him to think that you will pick up the slack.

Tell him that maybe at some point, you can be friends but it's a long ways away. You don't owe him any communication. If you are doing messages instead of an intermediary, he should consider that pretty good. Keep to your Plan B. I love the beauty of the darkness.

Please don't cave in to him. I'll see where this thread is at when I get back from work. (((((((((L)))))))))

Leave him a message referring him to your plan B letter. Your plan B letter makes your conditions very clear. Then stop responding to him to ensure he understands you mean business.

You are not his "friend," you are his wife. Nor would anyone in their right mind choose someone for a "friend" who lied and cheated on them.

I agree with Mel.

Either leave a message for him to refer to the PLAN B LETTER or SIMPLY and EMPHATICALLY say, "I will be willing to talk to you when you GET RID OF THE OW...

I believe that he wants RELIEF from PLAN B..which is beginning to cause him PAIN for whatever reasons...

Remember PLAN B is meant to increase the SUFFERING of the WS..the MORE HE SUFFERS THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS THE BETTER....

bumped.

GG, ML and Mimi, thanks for your suppport and advice.

WS is not very organized, rather than just refer to PBL (for him, last letter received), I want to leave him the following short message/note:

"I will be willing to see and speak to you to discuss whatever you need to discuss with me, if and when your affair with OW has ended. I do not want in any way to be a part of a 'triangle' because it is much too painful for me."

Would WS interpret this as being manipulative? I guess if he wants to, he can, but I really don't want to be. I really just don't want anything to do with him as long as he is with OW.

It does feel good to know that WS can't force me 'to speak' to him if I don't want to, and I don't want to with OW in the picture.

Luna:

I would just say this part.



Clear, precise and to the point, for the foggy brain! No room for any misinterpretation on his part....

Fogland. Guitl transition. Rationalisation.

You know, Luna, I think we both stuck our heads in the sand too long. We didn't want to believe what was going on and let it (the A) get too entrenched.

Luckily, we both seem to be not in financial straights and able to protect our children to a good degree from OW. What will we or our children benefit from divorce? Will our needs be filled by a D? Am I able to protect myself and my children better with a Plan B than D? That's what it comes down to, doesn't it?

I get so angy, sometimes Luna. Who else knows what it is to give up your family, your culture, your language, sacrifice your occupational credentials, acquire new ones ... trip on a new language and the egg shells of a new culture.

Travels of the soul. I am sure you know what I mean when I say that you learn your own language, your own culture, first when you learn another.What we have both experienced is precious, but makes the betrayal all the more severe and acute. Will we become wiser for it? I am not so sure about me, but I'm going to give it my best effort.