I think

probably yes

protecting yourself financially ~feels~ so final

but it's probably a smart move for you right now

PLUS ... it may put MORE STRESS on their affair ~~~> financial insecurity

Pep

Hi Ahuman and Pep,

Thanks for your comments.

Ahuman - quote:-------------------------------------------
First, WH's present contributions are a means for him to deal with his guilt about leaving. My guess he doesn't feel he has "abandonned you" because he is still pulling his weight in the M through finances. Second, DIVORCE changes EVERYTHING. You can rest assured that, especially as time passes and WH will no longer associate D with his A, his guilt meeter will change. I strongly advise you to speak with an Attorney about things you can do NOW.
----------------------------------------------------------

yes.... the situation is helping him feel less GUILTY....and that will die down....I agree..... I guess it's not so much HIM - as he seems to be OK by doing the minimum of what needs to be done to get what he wants - as much as me not being ready to make the MOVE....yet..... I guess for now I am OK with PLAN B and just not seeing him..... but this slowly is starting not to be ENOUGH...... because by remaining to be his WIFE..... and by WS choosing to continue his A with OW....I feel very much 'disrespected' and 'embarassed' and 'ashamed'..... but then.....I need to deal with these feelings.... the D will not change that fact that there will always be the strongest TIE of all between myself and WS: our two boys.......WS seems to be OK with the status quo...... and has not to date given any indication that he will initiate the divorce.... which really makes me mad..... like many other things he has done in his life..... he gets the BALL going and then expects others to EXECUTE.....GGGGRRRHHHHH!

...so....I AM wondering what is holding me back:

...one thing....is that I promised myself that I would hold out for 2 yrs in PLAN B before making any MAJOR decisions..... so... that would mean summer of 2007

...second thing.....not quite sure how I would like to 'split' assets..... sell properties.... buy-off WS......have WS buy me out...... I think I may have options there and right now I am not sure of what I want..... many decisions were made with the idea of sharing 'responsibilities'...... I am not quite 'there' yet being confident that I can 'do it' on my own totally.....

...and, more importantly, the third thing is that......divorce or financial settlements of any kind will 'cost' both of us financially...... and I guess I would like to be more financially 'liquid'.....for some of the costs it will entail.....

....but I think the most important reason why I am not 'moving' with the D proceedings: the A has taken such an 'emotional' toll on me....and it has taken so much of my energy to overcome that.... thatI feel like I am 'buying' time before I have to 'deal' with the financial aspect of the whole thing, although I know that it needs to be dealt with at some point......

....fourth thing.... I have the impression that by taking charge of the D proceedings.......I am 'enabling' somehow WS and A.... by doing the 'legwork'......get lawyers.... get all figures together..... all that WS wants to avoid doing!

Ahuman - quote:---------------------------------------
He has shown no mercy for your feelings, the financial situation suits him for now, when the wind changes and the financial situation no longer suits his plans, rest assured he will value your emotional security the way he values your emotional security.
--------------------------------------------------------

...yes...agree......WS has not considered my feelings at all.....either than just feeling 'guilty' about it......and yes, it suits him now..... and to a certain extent....it suits me.....FOR NOW..... but I somehow sense that after the chaos of last summer......the 'quieter' period that I am in now.....PLAN B....is just a 'breather'.....to get ready for the next 'storm'.... and yes.... I am afraid of it! ...I don't 'feel' that I am yet strong enough to take on that 'battle'......unless I am made to, I guess!

quote:------------------------------------------------
Will you react as "paralyzed" in the next battle as you did in the first?
-------------------------------------------------------

...yes...I agree, Ahuman..... I was a real basketcase... which is what I believe helps me now in being 'strong' in my PLAN B....and not allowing WS to 'manipulate' me into meetings and discussions....... and will NOT deal directly with WS under any circumstances (unless an emergency comes up re boys!)

....and yes....I do wonder if I will 'react' as paralyzed as before....I hope not!

quote:----------------------------------------------------
It is up to you. Dont hide from it Luna, PROTECT and STAND UP FOR YOURSELF!!
----------------------------------------------------------

....yes...I know.....it is up to me.....and that is what I am constantly 'checking' to see and do ask myself on a regular basis....are you ready to take on the battle?..... is it too soon to take on the battle? I think of Ark's thread on 'being STILL' and not ACTING to hastely..... although I don't admit it often.... I am 'drained'....from last summer's emotional battle.... I am slowly trying to build up my confidence..... building up my 'support' system.....inside and outside.... I see that I am at a much better place than last summer...... I am moving on in many subtle ways...... and do agree.... it takes a great deal of 'time'...and I am taking the 'time'.....to feel like I have the ENERGY it will take....seeing that I don't have family to support me here.... just friends and I feel I have already imposed on them.... and I do want to be able to be sure as much as I can that I can maintain at least the 'minimal' structure needed for the boys to suffer the least...because suffer they do!....... as I don't want any 'role reversal' happening..... I want them to continue SEEING a 'strong' mom.....but since I can't fake things very well..... I need to remain TO BE a 'strong' mom......

I am at a 'good place' right now, as compared to last summmer, and just want to stay at this place a little longer to build up strength....because I know that once I get the D going...... it will take a lot of energy.....and I don't have an OP 'there' for ME.....real or imagined!

PEP - quote:---------------------------------------------
I think

probably yes

protecting yourself financially ~feels~ so final

but it's probably a smart move for you right now

PLUS ... it may put MORE STRESS on their affair ~~~> financial insecurity

Pep
----------------------------------------------------------

...PEP....I have to get ready for the financial stress and insecurity that 'I' will be facing, too,......alone!

....although I am looking forward more and more about not being 'financially' tied to WS!

...... I am giving myself the summer off....and I will start 'information' gathering after that....

....thanks for the support....without wanting to put too much pressure on you guys (those that doubt contributions to Board, PLEASE TAKE NOTE), that the Board is, as it has been, one of the 'biggest' links, if not the biggest, of my support system..... and I really don't know what I would do without you being there!

....I am proud to be part of this 'courageous' group.....most proud!

P.S. Maybe it didn't help that I worked for 15 yrs as a legal secretary (mostly litigation not involving family law)..... but I am well aware....or maybe too much aware.... of how 'things' work in the legal system..... and what it 'takes' out of you: financially and emotionally!

....already on page 8???....bumped.....in case some may have some comments or suggestions for me and missed the thread.....

Thanks.

Hi Luna!

Just want you to know you are not speaking to a cyber-void.

You mentioned above about OW children being aware of the situation and angry at her. Have you ever considered contacting them? I guess that goes beyond exposure and may be weird. A letter? Just a thought.

Thanks Ahuman....

quote:------------------------------------------------------
Just want you to know you are not speaking to a cyber-void.
------------------------------------------------------------

....appreciate it!


quote:-----------------------------------------------------
You mentioned above about OW children being aware of the situation and angry at her. Have you ever considered contacting them? I guess that goes beyond exposure and may be weird. A letter? Just a thought.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Well....as you say....it's a thought.....since we talk around here about a 'plan' and 'purpose' to our actions.....I am not sure what the objective of contact OW's angry children do? ...they are certainly 'aware' of their mother's choices and the fact that WS is married and has a family and children...even if now he has 'moved' out..... I know that from OW's S (who is not the father of OW's children)..... that, if you don't recall,...... their biological 'father' was a WS and left OW when they were small...... OW's current spouse confirmed this and, particularly, for her daughters.... that their own 'mother' would get the family involved in an A again has been devastating..... according to OW's spouse.... members of the whole family are 'hurting'.....as the (3) children and the grandchildren....with OW's country home having been just sold..... no longer have a 'family' get-together place to go to...... their 'trust' issue wound created by father's A...has been 're-opened' by mother's A...... can't count on the father....and now can't count on the mother!

....don't know what I would say to them....I am certainly sorry for what their mother is putting them through....but being their mother.... I would expect that they would still 'defend' her with a stranger.....

...and being in PLAN B.... I am trying TO ACT as if WS is out of my life!

How are your boys doing?

Pep

Hi Pep,

....the boys seem to be doing fine.....I am on the lookout for signs of withdrawal....lack of sleep.... lack of appetite..... but they seem to be into the 'usual' things for their age....both have enough 'friends' and activities to keep busy...... I am not sure how things are at their dad's.....but pretty 'quiet' around our home....both pitch in to help out with chores.... and I basically maintain the 'structure' we had before Dad left.....feel it's the best to maintain a sense of 'security'..... my number of 'hugs' have increased..... but I just tell them it's to make up for the week I don't see them... and I also try hard to reduce their sense of powerlessness by giving them as much as I can a certain number of 'choices'.... age-appropriate, of course!

...thanks for asking....because I LOVE MY BOYS!

You're a great Mom

!!!!

Thanks PEP...

Well...I have had a great model..... I believe that one of things that help me overcome life's challenges.....and, to use one of Oprah's favourite cliches: ......ONE THING I KNOW FOR SURE....... is that on this earth there is (and at one point it will have to be 'was') one person in which I have never doubted her love for me and that I have a 'reason' to be here.... MY MOM.... I love her very very very much for giving me that......she may have many faults.......but I have never ever doubted her love for me (and my brother)....... HER CHILDREN....

....which is why I think that a child's 'right' should be to not have to ask: 'why was I born?'....... because the answer SHOULD be obvious: 'I was wanted'....... and so, in all of the daily 'details' with my boys..... I never lose sight of this one MAIN goal.... to have my boys never doubt or have to ask themselves that question.....

...I also chose to love my S.... and still do.....inspite of all his faults....but based on his recent choices... I need to keep him 'out' of my life..... the path he has chosen is 'hurtful' to me.......and I do care enough about myself to do whatever it takes to 'protect' myself from WS.....

I will end by saying that...I will never get tired of repeating myself.....that I would not be where I am today....... were it not for the support from this Board

....WS would have had a 'field' day with me..... were it not for your support and encouragement to 'stand up' for myself.......via PLAN B.....

PLEASE PLEASE.....NEVER UNDERESTIMATE OR DOUBT..... THE DIFFERENCE YOU ARE ALL MAKING IN PEOPLE'S LIVES THAT ARE HERE LOOKING FOR SUPPORT....

....and so, thank you to all of you for continuing to be there.....

Update.

The opportunity came up to have a discussion with DS15....knowing that he has friends whose parents are separated but are into friendly co-parenting..... whether or not he wondered sometimes why I was choosing not to do the same, etc. etc and why I would not be part of a triangle, and that his dad had a choice, and had DS15 any questions he was welcome to ask them.... DS15 said, no mom, I understand why under the circumstances......and were I in your shoes.... I would do the same.... but he also added.....that his dad was often very sad...and sometimes while just sitting at the table..... he actually burst into tears....

I am in PLAN B...only info. I have had about WS in a long time ...I guess sometimes the fog lifts.... and the consequences of his choices are clearer..... but not enough the ACT ON IT! .....life in lalaland does not seem to be that happy!

....WS, by no longer living a block away, has to 'drive' back and forth the boys and our big dog each week....and everything in between... and come this Fall.... he will have to 'drive' DS10 to school and he himself will no longer be able to 'walk' to work as he had been used to doing.....(he works at DS10's school).....uhmmmm......more chores have been added....

....one of the EN I believe OW (co-worker) fulfills (besides SF) is being WS's 'support' at work..... but the price tag for WS keeps going up (and will continue to go up, I think, as he cannot keep 'reality' out of fantasyland.....)

Hi Luna.

I guess you are right about contacting OW kids--what IS the benefit? I hadn't imagined a mean letter criticizing thier mom or anything. Just more of a "sympathy" letter stating that you were sorry to hear of the D, two families breaking up for nothing...that you still deeply loved your H and had hoped for their father and yourself that things would have worked out differently, etc. I guess it would be pointless. It was just a desparate hope to infuse some of the reality of your side into the situation....breaking the illusion.


It does not at all surprise me that your WS is in turmoil. I saw my mother like that for several years after she left my father for OM, despite her best efforts to move on and be happy. It was as if she went so far at some point that she couldn't find her way back...so she was just stuck in limbo land. Not wanting to marry OM and not able to go back to my Father. She had really lost herself and it took a great deal of courage and hard work for her to eventually work back to a healthy life....YEARS later. She still breaks a tear (18 years later) about the time she had wasted back then.


I have this bizzare idea that aims at nudging your BS in a healthier direction...since he sounds as though he may be searching for a light.

You are in plan B, so you cant contact WS. Could you send him a book without identifying that it was you who sent it? A book that explains WHY people have As...maybe understanding that it isnt about OW or some "great romance" would help him wake up. I would suggest a Harley book, but it is in English...does he read English?

This may be an awful idea because it may suck you back into focusing on him...I dont know. Seems he is probably on your mind a bit anyway. What do you think?

Hi Ahuman,

I really appreciate the time you are taking to think of suggestions for me....

quote:----------------------------------------------------
It does not at all surprise me that your WS is in turmoil. I saw my mother like that for several years after she left my father for OM, despite her best efforts to move on and be happy. It was as if she went so far at some point that she couldn't find her way back...so she was just stuck in limbo land. Not wanting to marry OM and not able to go back to my Father. She had really lost herself and it took a great deal of courage and hard work for her to eventually work back to a healthy life....YEARS later. She still breaks a tear (18 years later) about the time she had wasted back then.
-----------------------------------------------------------

...actually....I WAS a bit surprised to hear that he was in such 'turmoil'... I thought he would be still be into the 'good feelings' of lalaland since it has only been a year since he moved out..... I guess there is some truth to the saying: 'be careful of what you wish for.......'

quote:----------------------------------------------------
I have this bizzare idea that aims at nudging your BS in a healthier direction...since he sounds as though he may be searching for a light.

You are in plan B, so you cant contact WS. Could you send him a book without identifying that it was you who sent it? A book that explains WHY people have As...maybe understanding that it isnt about OW or some "great romance" would help him wake up. I would suggest a Harley book, but it is in English...does he read English?

This may be an awful idea because it may suck you back into focusing on him...I dont know. Seems he is probably on your mind a bit anyway. What do you think?
-----------------------------------------------------------

Well...before moving out....WS is aware of Harley concepts....he read enough about affairs to know that NC with OW is essential to recovery of M....he even consented to having a session with Steve Harley.... we also have friends that have overcome A.......and I do think attempts from ME to 'educate' WS would be more harmful than anything else at this point....

...he has access to the info.... he knows what needs to happen to change this around..... I guess he doesn't what 'IT' bad enough, or does not want to 'let go' of OW enough, to make the effort it would take.....

...I really think WS has hoping to 'work things out' where he would not have to choose....hates making decisions..... so, WS figured he could just navigate between family life and single life..... I don't think OW could make demands on WS to 'cut off' his family..... so.... I am the one who has 'messed up' his plans!

.....however, I did have doubts before.......and to clear up any possibililty of misunderstandings I did recently sent him a PBL 'reminder' about his choices and 'options'....... that I chose to not be part of a triangle (PLAN B) if he was able to break off A..... that I was 'open' to discussion once HE confirmed that A had ended (NC with OW) etc etc ..... I think maybe now, not being so much in fogland, it may have 'reached' him.... but WS has gotten himself on a 'set course' and, having too much pride, may stay on it because it would be tooo much TROUBLE to change directions, again, or admit 'failure' or 'error'.... yes, I do believe WS is lost....

....but I really don't think I can 'intervene' in any away at this point..... we are each responsible for what happens in our lives......WS needs to want his family back bad enough to do the recovery work that will be necessary.....

.. if 'reality' hits A hard enough both WS and OW.... to want to break A off...... then..... given that the main condition of PLAN B would have been met.... a 'dialogue' between us can be open......only then I can 'nudge' WS into anything.....I do see it as a positive sign that WS can now start to 'face' the consequences of his choices..... and the picture is not pretty...... because I believe to date he was in 'denial'....possibly, WS may find that the price IS too high.... and seriously consider alternatives......maybe.....

....I am working hard at focusing on what I need to do.....with a future WITHOUT WS in it..... letting go of what I can't control.... and focusing on what I can.....

....yes...WS is on my mind.... because I know his 'potential'..... the problem is..... WS doesn't!

I understand what you are saying. It must come from him.

You may have understood this--but just in case you didnt--the book suggestion was to be sent anonymously--not for him to know it was you that sent it.

I guess as a FWS, I feel sad for your WS....it makes me think of Lemonman's thread line...he doesn't even get it that he doesn't get it.

But you are right, we make our own choices. The bummer is that choices are always limited by the knowledge we have to evaluate and make those choices, so I guess that is what made me think of the book idea. I just imagined him "trapped" in his own misunderstanding of his own life.

I know, I know, how can--be honest, faithful and loyal to your own family suddenly become "misunderstood"...but having traveled that road I DO know that it can be blinding.

Hi Ahuman,

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
But you are right, we make our own choices. The bummer is that choices are always limited by the knowledge we have to evaluate and make those choices, so I guess that is what made me think of the book idea. I just imagined him "trapped" in his own misunderstanding of his own life.
-----------------------------------------------------------

.....after D-day, I provided WS with the information I found on the MB board about dealing with Affairs... WS even had a session with Steve Harley.......the problem was, as you know, that WS was in fogland....and hears and sees 'nothing' they don't want to hear or see...... as WS didn't want to 'end' A with OW... the material 'doesn't apply to him'..... because HE found his soulmate and does not want to give THAT up!..... and they are the exception to the rule..

...and so.....WS chooses to remain trapped..... like a 'doubting Thomas'.... I think WS will have to 'live through it'..... to realize that it isn't so..... then....unfortunately.....he will either have the courage to admit it and 'look me up' and hopefully I am still 'available'.....or for fear of rejection... or by being too proud.... will 'continue on' regardless..... those decisions....I cannot make for him!

I am glad that by not 'closing the door' on WS...... he cannot 'blame it' on anyone else....... it will have been his CHOICE.....not to pursue M...... even if he continues to 'rationalize' to himself and others why the M could not work (and more or less...continue to believe in his own 'lies')

.....he flat out told me..... why would I give up OW and all the 'possibilities' of a new R..... to work on a M that he obviously, particularly after rewriting history, found highly flawed! .....that is the rational of someone who believes that a good R does not need to be 'worked on'.......and in the 'falling in love' period..... things do SEEM easy.... but then.....it's only because it's NOT reality!

....as some old saying goes: you can take a horse to the fountain.... but you can't drink for it!

....and yes....the whole family.....is suffering the consequences of his choices.....particularly the boys..... and I do think WS's fog is somewhat starting to 'lift' over this......

and yes.....I always said..... that if I had to choose, I would prefer to be a BS rather than a WS..... because at some point or another both will experience 'extreme' pain..... BS on D-day..... WS when the realization of the damage done becomes clearer to him/her....but at least as a BS.....and the steps encouraged to take by MB...... with personal recovery.... standing up for oneself...PLAN B letter....PLAN B..... a BS GAINS self-respect..... which may not be the case for a WS, because it may take a long time... once the REAL CONSEQUENCES of WS's choices are clear....it will take some time to forgive ONESELF, I think!

.....yes.....a WS....when reality really hits the A.....particularly in cases like my WS....a 'romantic' affair.... where he is convinced he has found his 'soulmate'.... and so...having high 'expectations' of the A..... will be very very disillusioned WHEN it doesn't work out as planned!

...and, yes, I do believe WS is in a lot of pain from what I can tell ....compartemtalization....denial....rationalizations..... can only go so far!

.....but I cannot 'save' him.... he needs to save himself or want to be saved....either way.... WS needs to make the 'first move'.......

....yes...WS right now is preferring the 'chaos'.....the guilt....the payoff???? ....besides the obvious, OW meeting needs, at least at first, it is, I believe, because it's his 'comfort zone'..... and although detrimental to him.... it's familiar.....

....like any addiction...I believe WS may know this is NOT good for him (or for those he loves).....but he just does not believe he has what it takes to overcome it......and/or is discouraged by the 'mountain' that needs to be climbed.....

....I do believe there is a 'general payoff' for 'not getting it'......if you don't 'get it'.... you are not required TO DO anything about it!

P.S. ...hate to admit it... but I do believe that my last comment applies to a BS as much as it does a WS!

bumped for Ahuman (and others)

Update.

Well...I knew that with WS moving further away....the risk of crossing paths during switch could happen.....and it did.

Waiting for WS to come pick up DS10 and our big dog,etc .....due to misunderstanding......crossed paths this week.....nothing earthshattering.....we weren't in each other's presence for more than a couple of minutes.....

...will improve on 'manner' that switch takes place to avoid this happening again....that's all there is to be done!

Quoi de neuf?

Hi Ahuman,

Not much....in PLAN B land there is no drama happening....therefore nothing to report....

To replace our 'family vacation'....took the boys to see NYC (at the request of my DS15)...and had a terrific time!

....even though it was only three days, they were 'pacted' and it will give the boys 'something' to talk about when asked what they did this summer....

...it was also a way of my putting the 'focus' back on the boys.... and away from WS and OW and A....

Since WS now has a computer...I intend to pass info. re boys via email rather than telephone messages....which is consistent with my 'removing myself as much as I can from triangle' unless WS informs me otherwise!

I may have to 'sacrifice' myself again (bring it on, bring it on!) as another California trip may be in the works for this Fall to attend a conference near San Francisco! (I don't think I have had a year where I have travelled this much before)

Still struggling to figure out how to handle 'house maintenance'...what I can do, what I will need to 'hire' help for, work out the finances

...at the back of my mind...as it doesn't look like WS intends to initiate any legal proceedings....I will need to figure out 'when' I will want to do this.... although I have given myself two years to think about it...time flies and the same way one year has passed, one year from now is at the 'doorsteps'

....and thanks for asking.....

and how are things with you, Ahuman?