Yesterday was our 2-hour session with MC. Supposed to be 30 minutes each by us and then 1 hour together with MC. Turned out to be over 1 hour with WW and about 40 minutes with me (BS), then about 15 together.

The bottom line, MC still thinks I should give in and say to my wife that I am ok if she goes to her horse show as long as NC is agreed to. IMO, there is no way for that to occur. Even if she honors NC verbally, she would still see him if nothing else from a distance across the ring or in a barn area.

MC suggested maybe I allow my youngest son to go with her. I still feel uncomfortable with it because if she sees OM I fear we start all over.

At the end of our session we talked about some issues and she basically got mad and sad nobody is listening to her, that she keeps telling everyone she does not want to work on our M and is just tired of working on it. She says that I seem to believe if we just don't talk about it, (her not wanting to work on it I guess) that I am hoping the problem will go away. Then as we leave the MC office she says we need to come back next week. How strange. The MC says my wife is "presenting" differently than when we 1st came in. For about 2 weeks my WW wanted to work on issues, felt bad about A, etc… Now she does not want to work on issues, but still says she feels bad about A. It even has the MC baffled.

That is very hard to hear. I feel like I don't even know who my wife is anymore. Alien abduction is what comes to mind.

I feel so alone and awful today. Our oldest son had a ballgame last night so she went to the school to do a PTA type function with or youngest and I took our oldest to his game. I really dreaded coming home because I thought the tension would be terrible.

When I got home she could not have been in a better mood, really talkative, laughing about stuff, making jokes with the kids and I. She even made a joke about something the counselor told her to work on personally that she goofed up on last night. We both got a laugh out of it.

The whole time I am feeling like I am having an out of body experience. I mean it just seems weird and crazy. One minute she is saying she doesn't want the marriage. Then she agrees to next week's session and when I get home everything is just fine. Then when we go to bed she withdraws again. No physical contact at all.

This is enough to drive a sane person mad !!!!

Is this all Babble and Fog? Are the mood or personally swings normal? Is she close to crashing?

Help ? I need advice?

Dear Waiting on love,
It sounds like it is time to change mc. If your marriage counselor is not able to make the connection between healed marriage and no contact, (even just observing from a distance) it sounds like you are beating your head against the wall. You need a counselor that believes that nc is imperative to the ending of the affair and that nc has to remain in effect for the rest of your wifes life. To remain with this counselor gives your w/w the support that she needs to feed her addiction to the o/m. Its just like a reformed alcohlic saying that one drink won't hurt. You know how that story ends.
Do your homework and find a mc that agrees with the Harley's philosophy. Inmho, that is the only way mc is going to work.

Can I make a suggestion? For the sake of your marriage, throw the money you would spend on counseling in the toilet and flush it. Any "MC" who would suggest that your W stay in touch with the OM "to make her feel good" is a moron and does not understand the dynamics of marital recovery after an affair. She is leading you to a resumption of the affair, not marital recovery. Your marriage would fare better if you flushed the money, because this MC is harming your chances of recovery. She is not pro-marriage. She is doing this to make your wife "feel good," at the expense of your marriage.

Instead, contact the Harley's and spend the money on someone who specializes in adultery and is PRO-MARRIAGE. He won't give you advice that is detrimental to your marriage.

I am worried about your W's sudden exuberance and wonder if it signals her joy at the prospect of seeing the OM or perhaps she is talking to him again? Watch your back because this does not sound like someone who is in withdrawal.

And hopefully you know better than to allow her to bring your CHILD along as a chaperone to the horse show. Good grief.

Dr. Harley says that any contact with the OM just puts her withdrawal and your recovery back to Day 1:

"Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.

Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.

It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again."

More on the subject:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

kdsheartbreak and MelodyLane,

Thanks so much for your advice. I don't want to paint the picture from our current MC as inaccurate. She aggress with NC and definitely likes Harley's principles, in fact she is the one that suggested his book 4 years ago among others.

She just doesn't think it is about the OM. My wife was almost addicted to her hobby or horse shows. She feels that allowing her to go would endear her to me.

I disagree with that portion of the MCing, but I also see where the current MC is helping my wife with some other issues not even related to our marriage. Like not telling people she cannot do something. My wife wants cannot tell people no. She feels like someone will be mad at her. Her family runs over her. Overwhelms her with other issues and takes advantage of her. Always has. My wife when she was 14 and we were in high school was more like the mother of the house than her own mother. Her mother is very narcissistic.

I would love to try the MC with Harley but I am afraid she would balk. I feel like such a wimp and I am not normally indecisive or a wimp. I usually am able to make sound quick decisions and when I do so, feel good about making a decision.

Now I feel insecure with little ability to feel like I am leading our home, making correct decision, etc…

I have lost all confidence it seems. I feel pretty confident one day and a total imp the next.

Is that normal for BS? How do I start the subject with her about the MB counseling?

Question about Exposure:

I have not contacted OM since my very brief scream at him over my wife's cell phone on D-Day. Told him to stay away from my wife.

OM is not married (previously divorced). I do not have OM wife to expose. I do have his Dad's phone number, which my wife knows also.

I also have a major customer of his Name and phone number that he rents his barn from. Originally I told my wife I was calling them and his Dad. She freaked out and said it was not right for him to possibly loose his job, also said the customers were big gossips and it would be all over the industry what had happened and be talking about her.

I have not done so. Should I threaten OM with any of above or go ahead and at least expose to his Dad?

Of course the affair is about the OM, it is ludicrous to think otherwise. Who else is it about? Jiminy Cricket? If you have to forfeit the recovery of your marriage to "endear" her then where does that leave you? It's real simple: if she stays in contact she will not withdraw, nor will your marriage recover. If you have no marriage anymore, then "endearment" will get you a bunch of nothing.

Please call a qualified counselor like Steve Harley. You can counsel with him alone the first time and he can help you say the right things to bring your W into it.

I would not do any more exposures unless you think she is still in touch with the OM.

Will post more later.

Thanks Meldody for the swift kick in the pants. I am going to call Dr. Harley for myself if for nobody else.

Thanks much.

Mel,

Appointment is Monday morning next week.

Thanks for encouraging me. I am meeting with Dr. Harley himself.

WOL-

I'm glad to see that you took ML's awesome advice. I've heard nothing but good about the Harleys myself, even though I had not used them during our own recovery.

The MC you've got may have good intentions, but seems rather clueless when it comes to actually re-building a MARRIAGE. Perhaps a good IC, but not very good MC.

ANY addiction is severely determintal to a marriage. Why do you think alchoholism or drug abuse is so devestating to a marital partner??? Because all that effort is invested into the addiction instead of the marriage...

Ask your MC what they would suggest if one of the marriage partners were addicted to alcohol and wanted to go out drinking all the time, would the recommend that the spouse heartily agree to them continuing that addiction?

Now add in the additional factors from your wife's infidelity with people in this circle... this becomes a no brainer. What is the REAL difference between sending your wife to participate in this sport and allowing a known alchoholic who has permitted alchohol to ruin their marriage for years resume going back to the bar where they were known for committing adultery with other patrons there????

I'm also kind of amazed that your MC doesn't know how to handle your wife's 'change'...it sounds to me like there has been some kind of contact that occurred since your wife FIRST started MC (and was repentent, wanted to work on the marriage) and now (where she's belligerent, demanding, etc... It sounds like she started to go through withdrawl, but then the fog rolled back in.

Honestly, I think you're in a bad situation...if she's completely unwilling to do ANYTHING to reconcile, then I would think that the fog is still thick...and that makes any kind of counseling pretty iffy in value...even with the Harley's. It's likely to be good counseling for YOU...but as far as for your wife it's likely to be less than effective.

Hang in there, and see what Steve has to tell you.

I aggree that it is strange how she did change. Event he MC noticied it. She says NC is in place. The only thing that has changed is something I made reference to before and that is the fact that she gets these trade newspapers and magazines that have his picture in it or short articles about him in it. She has aggreed to throw these away, but I asked earlier if anyone thought that consituted breaking NC if she saw his picture or read an article about him.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She may be in NC and the depression may be just getting to her also. She did semi-cuddle this morning and gave me a hug as I left this morning. The hug is like one I would say you would give an uncle though. Kinda one armed and quick.

One thing is for sure. I have no idea what she is thinking at all. She can be very stubborn, so maybe she is just wanting to make a point also that it is going to be her decision and not mine. That is pretty much what happened 4 yrs ago.

Thanks

THANK GOD! I am so glad you did this. He is a pro who specializes in adultery and he won't lead you wrong. Good job, waiting!!

The weekend is usually like a rollercoaster ride. Hopefully, things will turn.

I find myself each morning waking up in a state or prayer.

Going back and forth from praying for our marriage to trying to abate thoughts of a gun to my head. (no one reading this panic. I am not about to do that, but you know how those thoughts can be, they are just oppresive thoughts which I am not about to act on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, plus the Lexapro (AD's) helps)

Today she seems to be coming out of a fog. I just get really skiddish when that happens because lately when I least expect it she just bottoms out again and looks like she has lost her last friend, mopeing around, etc... Hey I wonder if that is a sign of the crash that BobPure talks about. That would be nice. Not that I want her to hurt, but the crash seems like a stage prior to genuine recovery.

She has actually seemed interested in my input on some things today. Texted me and called me a few times already today.

I am looking forward to Mondays call with Dr. Harley. I am a bit apprehensive talking to someone so popular and widely respected but looking forward to it just the same.

This weekend was pretty much a non event. I was gone with my oldest son to a ball tournament all day Saturday and Sunday. We just spend Sat night and Sun at SS and Church services, Sunday morning and Sunday evening together.

She could have gone to my sons game but chose to stay with my youngest son at home Sat and Sun. I guess there was nothing wrong with that.

I had my appointment with Steve Harley this morning.

He was awesome. I gained some perspective on what was needed for healing of my "wound" to occur. I had never thought of my WW A as my wound.

Some very important things I learned today:
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There are 3 steps to healing. My Healing. We both need to know this.

1) Understanding Why it happened and What happened?

2) WW needs to understand How I was affected by this.

3) We both need to know how she can guarantee to me and herself that this will never happen again.


Our weaknesses are how we become emotionally connected. In other words, our EN's are our weaknesses. I never saw it this way before.

You cannot see around the corner with your emotions. In other words when you are thinking emotionally you only see in the present.

I should not give WW advice at all in this process, even if I know it to be true. The advice even if it is true and good for her, will be rejected just because it is coming from my very lips.

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Steve was brilliant !!! After we talked I struggled with how to talk to my WW about calling Steve for a phone consult. His suggestion was on point on how to do it. It took a great deal of courage for me approach her on the subject, but I did. While it was not the most pleasant thing to do and meet with some resistance and curiosity by my wife, she did agree to call him.

I was intrigued at her reaction. She had almost a wild curiosity to it. I really can't describe it in any other way except how a dog or cat acts just before you carry them in the front door of the vets office. They are curious, but know they do not want to go in. Even her eyes were wide open almost in a curious fear like expression.

The conversation then progressed into her crying and acting depressed again and distant. I feel like she was wanting to say something like, "I really see no point in continuing because I don't love you anymore." I resisted the urge to ask her, but just apologized for our conversation making her sad. She left our office crying and upset, but that is not the first time that has happened.

I feel like I may have LB'd in her opinion, but I know in my heart I did not. She really wanted to know what kind of questions Steve asked and what I thought the problem was as I described it to Steve. I never got into anything other than vague descriptions.

I almost dread going home tonight. I have never feared my wife, but I honestly fear the unknown and egg shells that I feel like I am walking on around her now.

My Prayer is for a great marriage and our ability to get past and through our current situation. I just pray that she will step one step at the time to do the same. The irony IMO is that if WS's would spend half the amount of time working on their marriage post D-Day as they did to deceive and coverup the A, then the marriage recovery would be a piece of cake.

That is the frustrating part.

Still Plan A'ing, but with a better understanding that the A is not my fault. Maybe had some contribuining factors, but not my fault, and it is up her to heal the wound. I can't do it for myself.

Thanks Steve if you are out there and thanks so much for my fellow poster's that have helped me to this point and are still helping others.

God Bless you All !!!

WOL, good to hear your session with SH went well. I have mine tomorrow morning and will post what he tells me.

All the vets say that recovery takes time...a very long time so expect ups and downs (rollercoaster) and keep Plan A going. Hopefully you will start to see results in the near future.

Remember, its like Bob Pure says "Plan A is a hero's gig".

HTW

I have been following your sitch for awhile also. Sound similar. I will say a special prayer for you for tonight and your appointment tommorow.

God's speed.

Yesterday after my session with SH I talked to my WW about what Steve wanted me to ask her. I basically made the appointment without her knowledge. SH wanted to talk to her, so I took his advice and mentioned it to her in the manner he suggested.

It went ok and she got weepy again, but one thing that just kills me something she said after we talked. I asked her if NC was still in place. It kinda came up because of a sarcastic comment she made about me being free to call whoever and she is not.

Anyway, I asked her is NC was in place. She says it was. I again asked if no letters, text messages, phone calls. I also asked if he had tried to contact her. She said no. I asked her if it bothered her or if she was surprised.

Her response was what really hurt.

"No, he would not do that. It would be disrespectful." I asked her disrespectful to who. She sad her. I asked why. She said because I told him not to. I said, what about disrepecting me and our marriage. It was like she never even thought of that. Almost, like she was saying. Oh, he is sooooooooo perfect and understand (unlike me) that he would never do anything to disrepect me, make me unhappy, etc........

What a crappy thing to say. I have not been able to get that out of my mind.

waiting, that is 100% fog talk so don't get to worked up over it. "He would never do anything to disrespect me", give me a break. What do you call having an affair with a married woman? That is pure fog talk.

I've heard stuff like that to so try not to let if bother you.

BobPure talks about the crash. Has anyone else experianced it.

My wife is physically getting ill, upset stomach, nausua, light headed, headaches, almost like she is falling apart. The last 3 weeks and in particular the last few days she has been worse and worse. Not to the point of doctor visit and 24 hr stuff, but she never feels good.

Is this the beginnings of a crash? Is it still withdrawel?

She interacts fine with our children, but friends of ours and other adults, she is just distant and does not talk much. Around me after the kids go to bed, she just zones out, starring at the TV or into space so to speak.

I would say those are signs of withdrawal, but maybe some of the vets who have gone through this can confirm.

She is obviously struggling with issues that are making her not well. This certainly could be the "crash" that bob was refering to.

Just try to be there for her and give her a safe place to land. Don't put any pressure on her at this time, just be a loving, caring, thoughful husband.

I know this is hard but you are doing a great job.