This was orignially posted on Divorcing forum and WasCrushedNTexas suggestted I move this to here. I have about 3 replys on the other board.

Help please. I am drowning in a see of gray sorrow and confusion and helplessness. I actually begged her not to leave this morning.

On 9/11/2005 I discovered affair that took place for about 3 months. Mostly over the phone, but some physical, Kissing, etc... (no sex according to her). We have been to conseling and she just told me today she just wants to quit. We have been married 21 yrs this Dec. 2 boys, 15 and 12. This will crush the 12 yr old and make the 15 yr old extremely angry. Divorce has her siblings issues also. Her Sister did the exact same thing, said the exact same thing about her 1st husband. Affair, and left after faking counseling, etc... Her brother was a victim of basically the same thing.

I just do not know what to do. She says she loves me in many ways, but has no feelings . (arrggghhhh !!!!). She says her feelings for me have been crushed over the years and my inability to "have fun" going to places she wanted to go.

I am at a total loss. She is on meds for depresion and we went through almost the exact sameting 4 years ago. No affair, but the lost feelings issue.

I just about can't make it through a day. My gut is me and I feel so alone. Help !!! Divorce is not want God wants and she even admits it and is still saying that is what she wants. She says she is willing to wait a little longer and see if counseling helps.

Any ideas ???

There are two things that will change her feelings: a) end of the affair - complete no contact and b) you start meeting her needs and making the marriage a pleasant place to be.

Have you read any of the Harley materials? Is the affair ended? Has she ended all contact with the OM?

Thanks for the reply. I think the affair is over. It was an out of town thing, that occured around a hobby she loved to do which is ride horses. She had the affair with the trainer. It was a borrowed horse, so we really don't have any ties with the trainer or barn now. It was mostly phone calls and she says kissing, no sex. I guess I beleive her on that.

She says it is over. No contact. She admits it is hard and says she hates telling me that. She also admits she knows that was fantasy and not real world. Her big issue now is she says she can't get past her "no feelings for me". She says she wants to feel passion, love, etc.... She says she loves me in many ways, but does not "feel" anything for me.

So based on what she says, I guess it is over. She says over the years I have crushed her feelings for her, via not having fun at things she wants to go to, parenting differences of opinion and just generally I would make her mad and she would not let me know when and for what reason.

I am just about helpless as to what to do. I am praying, but I feel like I am praying the same think over and over and over again.

How can she come out of this fog. We went through a very similar process 4 years ago and she said later, in fact as late at about 6 months ago, how glad she was that she did not blow it and leave. What a terrible mistake she made.
Yesterday was tough because it looked like she just gave up.

I just feel like when she is this way I do not know what is in her head. She says the affair "she does not like to call it that" was not the problem. It was a sympton of the problem. She admits that it complicated things and was a terrible mistake. She even says she is relieved that I discovered it. Arrggghhhh!!!

What to do? Thanks for your encouragement. I am glad to see you are recovered. We were and now we are at it again.

Sounds to me like you need to drop the relationship talk. Of course she is feeling gloomy about her chances with you, after just coming out of an exciting affair.

Can you just start trying to meet her EN's and go some places she likes to go and have fun?

She is just saying all the standard things that every WS says after an affair; don't despair because time and a little work will change this. She is in withdrawal from a powerful fantasy and doesn't feel anything yet. But she will, as long as long you try to meet her emotional needs. Her feelings won't come back over night, so don't be alarmed.

You really really need to get your hands on His Needs, Her Needs. Do you have this book?

Thanks for the support. I do have the book somewhere. We both read it 4 yrs ago. I will re read it. How do I get her to without Love Busting?

Don't ask her to read it.

Read it yourself.

Then one day when she is not looking too stressed, ask for her ~opinion~ about something you read... read her the paragraph you are having trouble with and ask for her help with "getting it" ... she may surprise you.

If you appear to be taking the time and effort to educate yourself, and show that her opinion means a lot to you ... this may open doors for future intimate discussions.

women develop loving feeling for men with whom they have give-and-take discussions where both share their feelings

Also ... tell her how you feel after reading a certain chapter or part of the book.

"Sweetie ... I was reading this (state the chapter) and I was feeling excited that there is so much we can do to make each other happy. What is your opinion?"

~~~~~

this is the ticket to my heart ~~~~

my H says this to me every day --->

"Is there anything I can do FOR you today?"

I love that ... !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Usually I say "No, thanks for asking." But it is clink-clink in my love bank every time !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your suggestion. I will try that also.

I showed her this site about a month ago when all was discovered and she did read a good bit of it.. Especially the surviving affair part. I think it open her eyes a little. Should I encourage her to ck out the website some. She knows I posted before, but not sure if she knows I am posting for help again.

Big problems this weekend. We are almost 30 days from the date I discovered and she confessed to the affair. She maintains she has had no contact. She is also going on 4 yrs of anti-depres. meds. She is so angry and just doen't seem like herself. Says she is not happy. Without knowing what to do, I just ask her to be patient. She is in a fog dealing with withdrawal from the affair and depression.

She started the conversations again today and we ended up taling about 30 minutes on the very stressful topic of her leaving not leaving, her feelings. She basically just gets mad and says, ok, she guesses what she should do is just pretend and "suck it up" and act like she is ok and everything will be fine.

How can I work on this when she is so unwilling to try. Initially after the affair it was no talk of divorce etc.... and no it seems like we have moved into that direction. Is that normal? Is it normal for her to get mad and very angry toward the end of withdrawel?

This is very normal, it is TEXTBOOK. Just stop trying to have relationship talks with her and don't get alarmed at the things she says right now. Don't let her bait you into fights with her anger and spite and don't tell her she is in a fog. Just smile sweetly and say "I'm sorry you feel so badly, dear."

As long as contact has truly ended [and hopefully you are still snooping and not taking her word for it!] there is hope. She can't try right now, because she in withdrawal.

If you want a good Saturday afternoon read, go read BobPure's threads from a year ago. His wife hated his guts and made all sort of threats, and now they are all lovey dovey. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

I have a question. How do you successfully make the marriage a pleasent place to be when she really does not want me to do anything for her at all. Basically she tells me she does not want to be around me. ( Is that just Babble?)

Once again, I think the affair is over but I think she is reeling from the withdrawal and habit of talking to him. To complicate things even more her affair occured around something she really enjoyed doing and that is riding horses. That is something she did on her own and we (my sons and I) did not really do that with her ( I know that was a mistake ). She says I made her uncomfortable at what she enjoyed doing because I acted like I did not want to be there. That is probably true and something I really regret but hope some day to be able to improve on. But right now she is missing the hobby also.

I have also used the reverse babble a little, but not sure yet what is is supposed to do. Is it for them to hear how strange their comments are or just to not engage in irrational conversation at all?


Any suggestions?

waiting, do you have His Needs, Her Needs? Because that book does an excellent job of addressing your question in depth. You are very much on the right track with this. The key will be to attract her back into the marriage by meeting her needs and finding common recreational activities. But first you must identify her needs. There is an emotional needs questionaire on this website, but don't ask her to take it now - wait for awhile.

I don't like riding on motorcycles, but every once and a while I go for trips with my H and I MAKE myself enjoy it.[I get him to take me "exploring" in the country for old abandoned graveyards, which we both very much enjoy] I was amazed at how ecstatic it makes him to take me on these trips. So, the key will be to either find a mutual activity or learn to enjoy going riding with her.

Is this her second affair??

I thought we had the book in our home, but we must have given it away. I have been looking for it for about a week. I will purchase it again.


About 5 or 6 years ago she spent a great deal of time talking to an old boyfriend in the horse industry that was dying of kidney failure. Basically it was an EA. Nothing really physical other than a goodbye kiss one time about 6 months before he died. They did talk for several months. The guys wife left him due to his health problems and I guess she felt sorry for him. My wife is a real helper if you know what I mean. If someone she knows needs something or needs counsel for something she trys to help out. I think she felt sorry for the old boyfriend.

Such is not the case on the 2nd one. He is very much alive but thank goodness lives several hours away, but would be at almost every event she would want to go to. I know one day if we make it past all this, I will have to join her in her hobby, but right now I can't. It would bring her too close to the OM.

We have had many good years of marriage. She has even said so many times up until about May of this year. The EA, PA began in June. The talking on the cell phone etc... started in April. She began withdrawing in June. She just wants to paint a picture that she has been faking it, etc... all these years and she is tired of faking it.

w, even if you can't join her in this hobby, you could develop a new hobby together. I am sure you did have many years of a happy marriage and she is just rewriting history in order to justify the unjustifiable. The reasoning goes like this: I have unhappy for years, therefore, I am entitled to an affair. I have never been to understand how having an affair will resolve that problem, but that is some pretty typical "logic" in the nutty mind of a WS.

Thank you so much for your encourgement. You seem very wise. I only hope we can be happily recovered.

All this is so strange. We are sitting here tonight with the kids watching tv and she seems so in and out of it. She was printing pics of some family stuff and kids pictures. She seemed normal. Then she will get up and walk away and seem in a trance almost. I feel so nutty obsesing over all her the stuff she is doing and saying. My wife is definately not herself and I know that but the pain I am in is aweful.

It is so hard to work hard when you are so tired an in pain yourself. I pray often for her to become clear and remember the good times. She said last time she came back for the kids and stayed for herself in the longrun.

WOL, what would you do next if you weren't afraid ?

I ask because fear paralyses recovery. Your post betrays fear IMO.

As Mel says Squid HATED my guts. now we're building on 'lovey dovey' to build the marrige we have both deserved for years.

It all started with my overcoming my fear.

Listen to Mel.

Listen to what both of these folks have to say. Read some of their past posts to others and what they themselves have gone through, especially Bob. He is dead on with fear. You need to establish boundries with her and yourself.

What you will also find is that you need the entire truth. She has been in afog for 4 years? Depressed 4 years? Clearly there's issues within your marriage and that is where you must focus your energy. Plan A. No relationship talk.

What concerns me is the "no sex"...you need to prepare yourself for the awful truths. I will paraphrase others here "Why would you ever believe someone who is a known liar and someone that has betrayed you?" You must accpet this reality as should she. However, if you truly love her you can do something about it...

I have messed up well before the postings and said the "fog word" to her. I only hope it is not too late and I hope I have not screwed up too much.

I am still checking where I can, but I can't cover all her tracks, such as when she goes to town to run and errand. She could be using a calling card I don't know about or calling his cell phone or home collect for all I know. She says no contact, but just like everyone else says, she has lied before.

BobPure's post are truely incredible. I intend on reading them more than once. Thanks for the heads up.

Bob

You are right. I am in fear. I hope to get strong and not fear any longer. Your post that were reffered to me are incredible. I hope to get there someday, sooner rather than later.

Since posting, I have felt much stronger, but I am still weak. I just do not have the nimbleness of mind to practice everything yet. I pray God gives me strengh.

Thank you so much for posting. I just have to stop LBing.

Thanks for your comments. I have feared the "no sex" talk for being the truth. I hope it is the case. My biggest fear at the moment is that she is in NC. Says she is. I can only hope and pray that is true.

Thanks so much. You guys are all so helpful and nice to even suggest things to me. I can't believe how much everyone cares.

Thanks much.

Mel,

I am so excited. I found the book HNHN last night. Actually my wife saw me looking for something in a nightstand (I think she thought I was snooping) and she asked me what I was looking for. I immediately told her the book and she told me where she thought it was. I started reading it yesterday afternoon. It seemed to make her a little uncomfortable. There she was reading her Oprah Magazine and I am reading HNHN. Anyway, I carried the book to bed and kept reading it. She asked me what I was reading and I replied just scanning it.

I did not allow her to bait me into an deep conversation about it. She seemed very curious almost.

She also asked about what I thought about our church service. I said I told her I thought it was pretty good. She mentioned she felt isolated at our church. I basically said, "I am sorry she feels that way. Hopefully that will change soon."

I say all the above for this. Without your guys input, Pepperband, BobPure, MelodyLane, believer, (i hope I did not leave anyone out) I would not have responded that way. I read in the book about how important it was for me to not LB ing.

I have a question. She is following the same (non affection) motif she was in 4 yrs ago. It eventually came back, but I can't remember if I continued to give her affection or not. I think I waited patiently for her move.

After reading last night, I am wondering if I should give her subtle affection as long as it does not get pushed away. Back scratching and massaging muscles, (it happened Sunday morning, she did not reject), hair brushing, occasoinal peck kiss goodbye and hello.

Your input please.

Please pray for a breakthrough. She picked up the book HNHN and began reading it today on her own. After work she said she was reading it and did not aggree with everything in it. I really did not comment much.

Later tonight she is reading it and writing down an bunch of stuff. I don't know what about. Please pray that I will say the right thing.

I am asking God for strength and guidance.

Don't get your hopes up, but this may be a very good sign. My WH was never interested enough to read any of the books (which were laying around the house) or read the stuff on this site. He just didn't care enough.

Sounds like you are doing fine. If you start going crazy, come here to vent. We understand.

waiting, you are on the right track. Look for opportunities to bond with by showing affection, without being too pushy.

Don't be surprised is she is looking for ammunition in HNHN to use against you and justify her affair. That is very common. If she does, then just ask her some open ended questions, don't lovebust and don't allow her to bait you into a fight. You are doing great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Waiting -

Hi! No advice coming from me, but just wanted to give my words of support. Keep coming here, you will get stronger and wiser. You have great advisors here.

My WH picked up Surviving An Affair & read some of it. Bad News. He said "It's a great Plan if you are willing to follow it."

Research and read all that you can here to learn how to equip yourself to fight this evil!

Kimberly
D-Day May 14th
DS, age 6
Married 13 years
WH left on Friday. Official Plan B starts tomorrow.

Thanks, Mel, believer, and kimberly

Your words have been encouraging and eye opening.

Right after my post last night I went upstairs and we folded some closes together. She had been reading the book and writing down some things. I could tell she wanted to talk but I did not bring anything up.

I showered etc... and got in bed, she was reading again. She started talking. Alot about what was in the book. Some she aggreed with and some she did not. Anyway, she asked me what I thought my 5 EN were. I told her I had not completed the questionaire, but I would try. She then asked me what I thought hers were.

Guess what. I only got 3 right and 2 of the 3, affection and sex she wants nothing to do with at the moment.

Anyway, we talked long about that and she started in on the fact that she maintains (while it was terribly wrong, she admits) the affair was a symptom of much issues that lingered for 20 yrs. I know that, but she just seems to want to talk about the past and says she just wants to stop hurting, etc... At that point it seemed the conversatoin started to become babble, so I had to shut my mind down or I was going crazy.

Saying things like - the booked really ticked her off. Said it was very sexist (she is not a "sexist" type women usually). Slanted one way for the women to do for the man type of stuff. I told her it was split equally down the middle in my opinion and she was only seeing it one way.

I continued to listen to her, but I tried not to take it personally. It was hard though.

This morning she said she did not sleep until after 5am. I expect a rough day today. I am praying to God that he will give her and I a day of peace.

Good luck waiting...

My WW went through a long period of not wanting SF or affection before her affair. I'd give you advice, but I don't know what I should have done diffeently.

BUT, DO that survey thing with her! Maybe if will help you clarify things with what needs of hers you should be concentrating on.

Thanks Gramn

I am going to do the EN survey. I plan on having an extra copy in case she wants to do hers. I am sorry for your D-Day and issues. I pray your Plan B works. Stay strong.

waiting, this is very good news! Do you know you can print the survey on this website? Keep listening to her and be careful not to try and educate her. She is definitely thinking about this. If you get an opportunity, ask her what things she thinks you could do to meet her needs? Ask her for ideas and ask her to describe the kind of marriage it would take to make her happy. Try and get her thinking about a future with you in a happy marriage. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html

If you really want some confirmation on the NC you can do some snooping. There are plenty of suggestions in this forum such as voice activated digital recorder in wife’s car, key logger software on her computer, hand-held GPS in her car and so on. Just remember information is only good if used right.

I have resorted to some of the above methods and I am not sure whether I should have or not. It’s unethical (but so is an affair), can get addictive and you might get other information than you asked for. In my case I found no indications to confirm an affair, but heard some things my wife confided in her best friend about me that I would possibly be better off not knowing – as well as things about best friends husband I definitely did not want to know! Sort of like listening in on therapy.

I say addictive because it started consuming so much of my time thinking of ways to monitor her, thinking what I would learn, listening to recordings and so on.

Anyway, I would not resort to doing this again unless under the following guidelines:
(1) I would define a time period and if I have no results within that time period I would quit.
(2) I would be sure I want and need to know what I might hear.
(3) I would really think whether this knowledge will help me towards a better marriage or accepting an end to the marriage.
(4) I would force myself only to listen for what I am looking for. I for example accepted that my wife is entitled to a best friend to confide in.

Anyway, it sounds like you are possibly at least looking for the road to recovery rather than wandering aimlessly around. I hope the more experienced people here correct me if wrong, but I would focus the energy towards healing rather than scratching at scabs.

bigger, how is it "unethical" to catch someone cheating on you? By what standard?

Thanks MelodyLane,

I will try very hard not to educate her. In fact she says one thing that LB'd with her bigtime was me making her feel inadequte, stupid or whatever. She says I never said anything specific but would talk to her in a way that made her question her judgement on things. Sometimes, small sometimes big things. She never told me it bothered her when I would do that so she admits the Honesty thing is a problem for her. Says she either did not want to hurt my feelings or did not "stand up for what she believed in". Not just with me by the way.

Thanks so much for the advice.

Bigger, I had not thought of the ways you mentioned to find out about the NC. At this point I think she is telling me the truth, but that is a gut feeling. To be honest, I am so drained working on other stuff I don't think I have the energy to do anything other than what I am doing now. Thanks for the input.

You all are a God send.

By what ethics? By the ethics I try to live by. Ethics will always be relative and although there might be some communal group ethics then it is down to the individual to define his own. For example I firmly believe that MY ethics will always stand in the way of ME having an affair. My ethics don’t seem to stop other people having affairs (and who knows – maybe I might bend although I doubt it).

My ethics say I should never hit anyone – I have hit another man and spanked my son once…

Anyway, I am not in any way justifying an affair – far from it. And I did use these methods despite feeling bad about it. I confessed to myself that there was something wrong since I felt necessary to tape my wife. Extreme situations demand extreme measures. I can live with that.

But it’s like the debate on Home Security. At what point would an on site body search stop being a necessity and become harassment? That is possibly the point I tried (weakly) to get across. React in accordance to the situation.

Let’s just settle this with the understanding that affairs are serious and justify serious reactions.

Waitingonlove. I would tend to agree with you on concentrating on what you are doing.

bigger, if ethics are always relative, then you can't say that snooping is "unethical." Relativity prevents you from ever declaring anything wrong or unethical because you have voluntarily abolished the standard.

I also doubt that you would agree that every person gets to legitimately make up their own ethics if I punched you out and stole your wallet. I bet you would suddenly become an advocate of moral "absolutes."

I have noticed that moral relativists never seem to want that relativistic standard applied to THEM, only others.

The fact is that there is nothing "unethical" about snooping on someone you suspect is having an affair. It is a responsiblity to protect oneself. No one has the right to the privacy to destroy another person. The police are not being "unethical" when they snoop on drug dealers; it is the exact same principle.

The last thing that a wounded BS needs to read is that they are being "unethical" for protecting themselves from harm by snooping. Again, no one has the right to the privacy to destroy another human being behind their back.

MelodyLane,

I honestly don’t believe we are helping Waitinginlove with his problem. I am therefore not going to go into a discussion with you about ethics – at least not here. I suggest we agree to disagree.

WIL, let me just share my experience that I did snoop about my wife. Although I felt it necessary I also felt bad about it and did not get the information I expected. And the information I did get possibly caused me more problems than it solved.

ok by me, bigger, but it was you who brought it up by telling him snooping was "unethical." I don't think it's helpful to tell him that snooping is "unethical;" it's not.

Waiting, DO NOT feel bad about snooping. It is a self protective measure that you must take and there is nothing wrong with it. You have a right and a neccessity to know if she is still in contact. This is information about your life that enables you to make informed decisions. You cannot make informed decisions if you don"t have the facts.

MelodyLane and Bigger

Thank you both for your input on the subject. I really see both sides. I too feel bad that I have done it somewhat (phone bills, caller id, etc...) but I also know it was neccesary and the discovery was sooner rather than later because I did so. So long story short, I guess I mourn the fact that I felt I had to snoop in the 1st place.

I also know that my IF gut tells me I think she is in contact I will have to explore other measures which I will. I don't want to but I will.

Both of your hearts are in the right place. Please don't feel bad for disagreeing. Believe me, this is easier (seeing my fellow posters disaggree) than what I am going through with my wife at the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

After a very stressful lunch of her seemly not being able to get past her "no feellings" issue, which she dwelled on something terrible and cried. She made the comment at lunch that she just guessed she had to suck it up and pretend she had feelings and everyone would be happy. she kinda sarcastically stated then she would obviously feel better too.

I had something very unusual happen. We were at our son's ballgame last night and she picked up our oldest son to carry him home and she actually seemed in a good mood.

Well as she was leaving, she gave me a one armed hug goodbye . When I got home from our youngest sons ballgame she was in bed so going to bed was not stressful, but this morning she actually rolled over and put her arms around me. That has not happened since last week.

I am glad but is it also normal to be a bit concerned at the sudden turn around from lunch to about 7pm in the same day. I know she has still been reading the book, I saw last night where she has been highligting in it.

Anyone have any thoughts? Am I strange for wondering what is going on in her head?

This is a textbook withdrawal from an affair. And it is going quite good actually. The fog seems to be clearing! But you can expect moodiness, that is part of it. Just keep doing your best to meet her needs and don't allow her to bait you into a fight.

Thanks for the warning. I will be careful on the moddiness and baiting.

waiting, they ALL say they don't feel anything, so don't pay it any mind. Her feelings will come back as she goes through withdrawal as long as you stick to your program of attracting her back. You are doing great!

Well, another strange lunch today. Basically, she was unattached so to speak. She was there but seemed at a distance. After she finished eating we talked about some issues, nothing really deep. She left the office to run some errands and pickup our oldest from school.

She used to call me, text me all the time and tell me what was up. I rarely get info now. I guess that is a sympton of the affair...???

Something else strange happened yesterday afternoon. Before her hug and being nice. I could not find my sunglasses and thought they might be in her car before I left the house. We (my son and I) were running late for his ballgame and I came in to get her keys to look in her vehicle for them.

She beat me to the car and inside the car to help find them. (she was inside the house and just came in from picking up my youngest son from Cross Country practice) She seemed very helpful and "concerned" that I locate them. A few months ago, I would have just thought, she is helping me look for them and knows we are running late. I would not have been suspicous at all.

I cannot help the thoughts that are coming to my mind. Was there something in the car she did not was me to find? Phone card, extra cell phone (she already had one of these before the the OM bought and shipped her) (that is how I caught her), letter or am I just being parinoid.

My concern is Part 1) that if she is making progress, why muddy the water with either being caught snooping some more if there is nothing there, or worse yet, nothing there but hearing something I don't want to know about, ie complaints about me to another women, family member, etc...

and part 2) my wife is very very very stubborn. She would hold back extra hard if she was in contact, I think.

We are both strong willed and a bit prideful. I wonder if the sign I saw last night was genuine, affair is over and in NC mode and she is trying.

On the otherhand is it an act? Don't know. I am starting to sound skitzoid myself I guess.

Does anyone have any thoughts.

My WBF acted the same way after I had discovered his affair, I needed to get something out of his car, normally he would just give me the keys, but this time he went to the car himself. Later on I realised that this was where he was hiding his condoms - in the glove compartment.

I'm not saying your wife is hiding anything but keep your radar up.

Good point. Hope she is not hiding any condoms. I would rather find a cell phone again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have the same opinion as Melodylane - snooping

'It is a self protective measure that you must take and there is nothing wrong with it. You need the facts to make informed decisions'

Again - keep your radar up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bluntly, I'd be suspicious too...if I were you I'd make arrangements to snoop in her car HARD sometime soon. I would have been suspicious of something like that too...esp if it seems to be out of her normal behavior.

Well WIL, you know my opinion on snooping, but if I were in your shoes I would. So here are some tips from someone who has done it:

Get a small digital voice activated recorder. They can record up to 2-3 hours of conversation. Get a lot of batteries since you will have to change them every 2 days or so. Don’t get the old fashioned tape variety. Make too much noise. Place this under the passenger seat in your wife’s car – push it into the seat not on the floor... (This text is nearly verbatim from another MB member). This should be our first action. You can experiment in your own car with various places and positions. Costs less than $50. Cheap – easy – effective.

If you know her routine you can also place a hand-held GPS in her car. You can either buy one or borrow if from a friend who is into hunting or hiking. It will log all the car’s movement over the day and you can see whether she is where you expect her to be.

A friend placed a WebCam in a garage window connected to a laptop computer on a wireless network and used MSN to monitor his home entrance from work. When suspected OM came he went home to catch them in bed.

If she is computer savvy I would stay away from key logger programs. Meddle with virus protection.

I do stand by my warning that this can be a Pandora’s Box but like I said before - Extreme situations demand extreme measures.

waiting, does she communicate on the computer? Because I can help you fix the conflict with the virus program if you think it would be helpful.

I can't add anything to the great responses, get to snooping, my friend!

Came home from work, had supper. Whent upstairs to presumbly brush our teeth and bam. She started in on the book and how she has read it 5 or 6 times. She is a very fast reader. Anyway, she tells me she sees less hope now than before she read the book.

Basically, I tried to stay away from conversation but it was impossible. It went to her finally saying she could not keep trying anymore. She is tired of trying, she worked on this 4 yrs ago and we both slipped into old habits of me not letting her have her opinion, etc... and her not telling me it made her mad.

I asked her about the car situation and it was my birthday present she just ordered. I could tell by her reaction she was telling the truth. She is not a good liar. That is why I thought something was up back in June.

Anyway, I asked her if she was still following NC and she said she was, but that was not the problem. She has not been happy for 20 years and she is tired. I mentioned to her that I could show her letters, cards, emails, etc... to me that she has sent me of the last 20 yrs that would say otherwise. Basically, she did not want to see or hear about any of that. In fact she even said she wished she had not written one of them which was our 20 anniversary in Dec. card that basically was a long love note.

I tried to convince her the kids would be crushed. Told her our 12 yr old (his birthday on the 24th) would be crushed. Our 15 yr old would internalized and be very angry. I also told her I was afraid what might happen to any of us when God tried to get her attention. She did not want to hear any of that.

She threatened to drive somewhere (OM lives way out of town) and she would be back later. We went downstairs and if it could not get worse our youngest all but demanded to know what was going on. Basically she told him after a few minutes of talking that we were in counseling and she did not want to continue. She never said the divorce word, but he knew exactly what it meant. It was awful. Lots of crying, begging, reminding her she said she would never leave or divorce. That went on for about an hour. She called our very best friends and the wife came over and they talked in the car for 2 hours. She even talked to our pastor. Both of them were worried she would do something to herself because she felt like she wanted to disappear and die, but she also said she knows that that is wrong and something the kids would never get over.

One thing that threw her over the top was I told her the kids would want to know what happened all of the sudden. I told her they would her people talk and one of us would have to tell them about her A. I don't want that to happen, but I also don't want them to hear it somewhere else.

She slept with our youngest son, I in our bed last night. Longest night ever.

So far, our pastor, best friends only know about A and counseling. Well the kids know about counseling.

What should I do? She is still home, but she says because she feels I am blackmailing her with the revealing of the A to the kids, but also, being guilted by our children to stay.

This is totally crazy. Heck, I feel like disappearing.

I am crying typing this. She is taking the kids to school and I am waiting on her to come back. I don't feel like going to work. I was supposed to go off for some golf and socializing with some business partners this weekend, but don't feel like doing that and definately don't want to leave my sons in this situation.

Help me, Lord Help me. Please I can't see any hope. She can't see any hope and does not want to try.

MIL – are the two of you in MC?

The big issue now IMHO is to buy time. Decisions made now will always be made in such an emotional state.

You have dedicated a long time to each other. Could you convince her to try for six more months? That you go to intense MC, and try to rekindle your love? If she accepts this then act right away! Contact a MC, book a meeting and start working.

We just had a very emotional talk when she came home. We are both in MC. Have been to 3 or 4 sessions. I really can't remember exactly.

A few moments ago she at least agreed to go next week on the 18th ( my birthday ). That is when it is scheduled. She is carrying our youngest son to our pastor to talk and pray this afternoon and I asked her if we could both talk to him.

The only thing I have at the moment is until next week. She says she will not committ to work beyond that. She says she does not want to give me any false hope. I asked her if we worked things out, and had a good marriage after counseling what would she think of that. She said it would be wonderful and she has been waiting on that for 20yrs, but she does not see that happening.

Hopefully, she will follow through. I am just at a total loss.

I just wanted to chime in with a quick note of encouragement. Everyone here is offering great advice and all kinds of support. Hang in there and stay as strong as you can.

Loni

Remember that this "I've not been happy for 20 years" is all standard WS FOGSPEAK. She believes that right now too...she's re-written your marital history in her mind to justify what she's done. It's kind of a mental defense mechanism. Pretty much ALL WS's do this.

My wife did. We were married 17 years when she had her EA...and she told me (and the counselor) that she'd been unhappy for YEARS. So I called her on it in counseling...give me specifics. When/where/what. Of course she couldn't. So I gave her specifics...I KNEW that things were bad for the last year prior to her EA. And had been doing all that I could to work on it...but was limited because it predominately due to her depression (untreated), and excessive online gaming. I even pointed out to her when she'd actually started an EA with someone ELSE online towards the beginning of this bad time.

Of course, she was so foggy that at the time there was no way she could see what I meant. But once the A ended, and we began fixing things, within months it went from being "years and years" to being the same times that I knew...about a year prior to the start of the EA.

Looking back now, she can see how she'd viewed things so differently, but cannot understand what she was thinking at the time.

Your wife is likely doing the exact same thing...all you can really do about that is some of the same things I did...challenge her for specifics...and remind her of all the good things that happened. And allow time for her to get through the fog. That's about the only remedy I know for the re-written history issue.

Well after our discussion this morning and basically me begging for her to continue counseling, I went to the office and she soon followed.

On my way, I called another friend and told him all (they are stong Christians) and when I got to my office I told my brother who is my partner. (strong Christian also) To complicate things my wife works at our office also in accounting and we just hired her some help due to business growing.

Anyway, she stopped by her parents and told them. Of course her viewpoint is the A if not the problem but the sympton. Same as it has been for awhile. Her parents are concerned about the kids and told her they want her to do what she wants to do, (not a lot of help there) but if she is going to go to counseling, she needs to give it 100% and not pull what her sister did 2 years ago. ie fake it continue affair and then say the counseling did not work. At least I have that going for us.

I have asked her to view other peoples posts, she is over visiting the site anymore.

We are going to our pastor this afternoon to allow him to talk to our 12 yr old who is distraught. I asked her if she minded us talking to him also. Basically the answer I got was, I don't mind or i don't care.

I also asked her a little while ago if she still believed that NC was the best thing. She sighed and said yes.

Is this all normal?

Are we getting close to the peak? (withdrawel)

If she leaves home is that the end?

Do WS's remain true to NC and then come back later?

Is my WW being unusually stubborn?

Well, I guess this might be the final drive for a touchdown to try and win the game now. (touchdown = save the marraige)

We meet with our pastor for the 1st time yesterday. It was actually a meeting for our youngest son, but that only lasted about 20 minutes. We meet for 2 hours. Very hard stuff. I found out things about myself I probably already knew but did not want to admit and she did the same.

Pastor says I must drop anything about the affair once I truely reach forgiveness. He reminded her that she will have to remain in NC mode. All 3 of us cried a lot. Pastor included. (he is a personal friend also).

WS was a little more gentle and understanding last night. Actually we hugged and exchanged I Love U's this morning as she was going to her Med. Doctor appt.

I am resolved to the fact that I guess as the BS we almost become the punching bag / doormat / whatever you want to label it in order to try to save the marriage.

What I mean by that is, she will say somethings as she comes out of the "fog" that are constructive for me to work on, and others that mean absolutely nothing. That is the hard part.

Wife says she is in NC and I believe her but I am curious. I have the OM number and his Dad's number. Should I contact him to (I briefly yelled at him over the phone when my WW called him to tell him it was over) basically say stay away or I will call others he knows.

Should I call his Dad? I don't know either one of them personally.

Do I endanger (LB) any progress I have made with WW to this point by doing so?

If you haven't read everything, I found out on 9/10 and exposed to WW on 9/11? We are just now 4 weeks away and man, she is in and out of it. This morning, was terrible, she was moping around, looked all depressed, snapped at me. Last night at the the high school football game we went to, she was all smiles, had fun, really nice. It is just crazy.

I guess I just need someone to vent. Maybe I am whining. I don't know.

Thanks for listening, everyone.

First off, you have to recover from the betrayal of the affair and that will take some time, usually 12-24 months. You can't just "drop it." You must recover from it and you don't recover by just "dropping it." You have forgiven her, now she must help you recover from the damage she caused to you and your marriage.

I wouldn't suggest calling the OM or his dad if she is in no contact. Exposure means telling people WHO DON'T KNOW, not people who already know. I just don't see how it would help to call those folks.

Your W is going through what might be the mood swings of withdrawal.Just keep your eyes peeled and watch your back, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes, I get such mixed emotions from WW that I just walk around in a daze. Don't know what to do. I feel like giving up.

I told our kids I would never give up as long as we are married. Why can't she see what she is doing to everyone.

How do you overcome distructive thoughts? I want to bash the OM's head in. I know that is wrong, but I just feel that way.

I can't stand the thought of my wife leaving and some other man with her.

Why is that?

I also walk around and see other couples and mourn for what used to be normal in my life.

God, why can't this end and we all get back on track?

I have a question. What do you do in order to add Love Deposits, when the WW does not want any.

What I mean is I am supposed to let her know I love her, but she tells me she is irritated if I try to hold her hand, cuddel in bed, tell her I love her. Am I doing more harm by doing that or should I just avoid doing those things and hope her feelings come back or is this just fog?

If it irritates her, then stop doing it and pull back. Let her come to you and just do your best to look for opportunities to meet her needs.

Are you sure that contact has ended?

As best I can tell. I really don't think she would lie to our pastor. I could be gullable though. If she is in contact with him, I think it would be via calling card from a pay phone or something. I don't know how to catch this if so.

I will pull back. I think I am doing more harm and selfishly I think I am desiring affection more than I am trying to show her love. Guilty I guess, but I am starved at the moment.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Here is my situation.

Wife said she is tired of trying last week. Even told our kids, but backed off when yougest freaked out and aggreed to continue to go to MC.

My DOB tommorow (18th), Hers is Friday 21st, the big 40. DS is the next Monday 24th (He becomes a teenager, his by 13)

I really wonder if she is just in gut check time to get past the DOB's before saying she tried and it won't work again.

Also, working against us, her A happened around a hobby she enjoys and has a passion for (horses) and she knows it is not possible at the moment to go to a horse show with us still "working on things" because the OM would be there.

Also, does NC count if she sees photos of him in trade magazines and newspapers or am I being too sensitive?

Our MC made a statement today that disturbs me greatly. She says she fears my wife will no longer try because of the horse show issue. How can we get past this issue?

I have a question for anyone willing to offer an answer.

WW and I went to counselor today. Our regular scheduled appointment since D-day.

We have not been since WW told me last week she was tired of trying. The MC gave me some advice that I am not sure how I feel about it.

Her A happened around horse shows and horses with a trainer that is pretty much a good bet that the trainer (OM) would be at in our region of the country if the horse show is worth going to. These shows have hundreds of people in attendance but the regular people that go from event to event is a smaller community.

Anyway, th MC made the comment to me that my wife basically already has one step out of the door ready to leave. She suggests maybe I give in and tell my wife it is ok with me if she goes to the shows as long as no contact is made, but I not ask her later was there contact etc....

MC says I need something to endear her to me. I guess that means show her I love her. MC says she knows that is tough to do and even admited that she (MC) might not be able to do what she is suggesting, but her response was she is almost about to leave anyway.

I just don't know how I feel about this. Well that is a lie, I know I don't like it at all. I feel like I am shoving her right over to the OM, but the MC says my WW even said she knew NC had to be kept.

Is the MC grasping at straws or has she got something. One day down the road I would like for my wife and I to be able to do her hobby together and occasionally maybe when things are better and I can't make it, have her go without me, but my gosh, We are 5 weeks post D-day.

Am I being insecure or untrusting of my prayers to God or is this something God is asking me to do? Our MC is a strong Christian and someone we went to before in 2001.

My other thought is if I offer maybe she will not except out of respect for me and that will still offer love deposits.

On the otherhand, if I offer and she excepts, I will take terrible grief from friends and family that will think I am a fool. Of course many of them already do so, so what else is new? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any ideas?

bump please

My idea is that your MC is a [censored] if she thinks that contact will do anything but HARM your marriage. Just consider this, w, Dr. Harley, who is probably one of the most successful and published MC's in the US lays his success to his absolute INSISTENCE that there never ever be contact again, even if you have to move to another state. This is the key to his success. This is the ONLY WAY a WS can withdraw from an affair. To do otherwise indicates an ignorance of the addictive nature of an affair.

What she is suggesting would be like putting a recovering alcoholic in front of beer in the bar every day and telling them they can't touch it. When the inevitable weak moment hits, they are back to drinking again. And the whole time they are in the bar, they are thinking of nothing but that beer; they are obsessed with the beer. That is HARDLY recovery. That is how it will be with your W, she will think of nothing but the OM and will seek him out when the weak moment hits.

And how will you fare? You will never regain trust as long as she stays in contact with the OM. Every contact or every chance at contact puts you back to day 1 of recovery. It will be like dying a slow death of a thousand cuts.

Some articles coming......

"As long as you were seeing or communicating with your lover, there was little hope that your feelings for your husband would be revived. But by separating from your lover, you have removed one of the most important obstacles for complete marital recovery -- your lover.

But, as you have already discovered, the first few weeks of separation from a lover are very painful. You are addicted to your lover, and separation from the object of your addiction has triggered symptoms of withdrawal -- a compulsive craving for him with intense feelings of anxiety and depression. However, if you completely avoid seeing or communicating with your lover, those feelings of anxiety and depression will gradually fade. For most people they fade in a few weeks. But even if it takes longer to get through withdrawal, it is absolutely essential to do it if you want to restore your love for your husband.

Remember the Love Bank? If you are to be in love with your husband, he must deposit enough love units into his account in your Love Bank so that it will trigger the feeling of love in you. But since you are depressed while you are getting through withdrawal, it will be almost impossible for him to deposit very many love units. If he is to deposit love units into your Love Bank, you must first get over being depressed so you can associate him with your good feelings.

Once you are through withdrawal, however, you are ready for marital reconciliation because then, and only then, does your husband have a chance to deposit love units. Your mood will improve dramatically, and the effort your husband makes to meet your needs will reap impressive dividends. Before long, you will be in love with him again.

But if you give into your craving before withdrawal has ended, and contact your lover, the period of withdrawal will begin all over again. Those feelings of anxiety and depression will come back with a vengeance. All of your efforts to reconcile with your husband will be wasted, and it will test the limits of your husband's patience. So you must take extraordinary precautions to avoid ever seeing or communicating with him again. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

wow. I am reading and typing from my phone but that was what I was thinking. I felt in a moment of weakness if she saw him there she would go to him and even if she did not just seeing him from a distance would start her withdrawal all over again.

not to mention what I would be thinking.

MelodyLane

by the way. thanks so much for your wise counsel. may God bless you and youe marriage.

I would like my WW and I to both do the phone MC with Harley or Jennifer. I have not made a call, but have seen many references to both on postings.

I have mentioned to her about this and she seems reluctant to do so. She will go to other Christian MC we have went to before but she thinks a phone counsel will not be beneficial. I see no difference, but she does. Says she wants to be able to look at the other person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Can someone offer a suggestion on how to overcome that obsticle?

I don't want to LB and things seem to be going pretty decent but she is in and out of it. Seems out of the fog the last 2 days than in it.

waiting, just tell her how immensely successful they are. Just one session with Steve and she will feel confident about him. Get a session for yourself and just ask her to try it. If she won't, then Steve can help you find the right words to persuade her to try it.

Well, tommorow is her DOB. She will be 40. A year ago we were going to have a big get together with friends and family. Really celebrate it. Now she really does not care. We are going to just do something the 4 of us. DS15 and DS12 and Mom and Dad.

She really is detached about the whole thing. Also, she is moping around again. Our kids are really tired of he being negative also. I am trying to keep them positive and be sure they understand they are not at fault, but we all need to be sure she knows we love her, etc... and care more for her other than and house maid and cook.

Also, I am struggling with the lack of affection and sex. We have not had sex (the real thing) since the end of May 2005. That is when the EA started. We did other stuff but no real sex. Now we don't do anything and in fact not even a kiss other than a peck.

How does a man overcome the fear that your wife is comparing me to OM?

Mel, Bob or anyone,

I have major PeaSoup going on today. I have learned from Bob's posts to others, I need to stop the ILY's. I can see it in a different light now. I may be doing more damage than good.

I have to say we are about 6 weeks post D-day and she comes and goes out of the fog. One thing today is she resists some of the "rules" we aggreed on. She calls them my rules but you know how that goes.

One thing that IMO caused A #1(EA) and #2(EA/PA) is lots of contact with males on the phone. She is very involved with her hobby with is male dominated and they call her all the time. After #2 A on 9/11 I told her I would appreciate her not talking to other males (includeing NC rules on the OM). I felt all along the old it was an issue but to "give her space" I never checked up or questioned her alot about it. Hence that is how the other #2 A started. Harmless talk about her hobby on the phone, then one thing lead to another.

She said today she feels embarrassed that she has not called all these people back that keep calling her. I told her I did not mind as long as it was not a secret and she could talk to them in front of me, which she never did before. She also is missing an event this week that OM would most likely be at.

So long story short, she is "having a feel sorry for me day" her words not mine.

She is also very "anti Church" at the moment. Feels uncomfortable at church but goes anyway because it is expected of her and the "right" thing to do. Babble, Babble. She was a strong Christian women. She knows better.

Why must she resist God in this. He has not done anything to her.

I guess I am just venting.

Is it possible for the fog to be this bad almost still?

When do you know when they want to begin recovery?

It makes me at times want to just give up. Not that I am, I made a promise to my kids, but I just want to sometimes scream in exhaustion of the sad face, ho hum attitude she conveys. I do love her very much, but she is just crushing my "feelings" to pieces. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How do I maintain composure without pushing her away, and yet still let you know I am there for her without sounding pathetic?

My WW tells me she feels like she is grounded. As per one of my previous post she is resentful that I don't want her talking to these other males around her hobby. Both A's were associated with her hobby and involved phone calls at the beginning.

MelodyLane feels like it would be the wrong thing to aggree to her going to her hobby, but I also think the phone call thing is a major problem as both A's were connected to her phone calls with OM's in the past. None of these OM's which I might add, did I know personally or at all.

I don't nor did have a problem with her conversing with males on the phone, but I just thought it not a smart thing in our marriage to continue at the moment the way we had been going.

Please let me know thoughts on this. - the grounding or restriction feeling, continuing phone calls to OM's. How do we have aggreement without her resenting.

Is getting involved in her hobby a possibility? Go to the shows with her...and become part of that life with her. Tell her that you want her to enjoy herself, and that you want to learn more about this part of her life.

Be enthusiastic about it, and really do get into it. It's likely to be a major boost to her LB if you do so. And at the same time, it's going to be pretty much impossible for her to get involved with someone when you're there.

If she balks and says that she doesn't want to have you there (for whatever reason)...big red flags.

If kids are an issue, see what kind of compromise you can work out...see if she'd be willing to attend fewer of these events, and see if you can setup a sitter of some kind to allow both of you to attend the events she deems to be the most important.

Just my thoughts...find a compromise that will allow the two of you to grow TOGETHER, not apart. And tell her that THIS is what you've wanted all along.

The OM from affair #2 is a trainer and is there also and it would be impossible for NC to occur at the event.

I have told her I hope our marriage would get to a point that we could do this together, but she says I telegraph misery at these events and ruin her time. Consequently she went by herself. I do hope if this is something she wants to do that once we both feel safe and secure that we would be able to do this together. We used to and it was fun, but it became more about who was winning and politics so they (her family) started using professional trainers and it became less fun.

I feel like I am fighting withdrawel from 2 things. The OM and now the Hobby. MC suggested I "let" her go without me this week to show some sort of love or whatever.

I know what would happen, she would see OM and we would be back to square one. I feel like we are screwed no matter what. If she would just have paitence and work on this, I believe once the security of our marraige was better and I could deal with seeing the OM, I might be able to hack it and try to enjoy it for her. But right now, if I saw the OM, I believe I would do something I would regret later. Not good for the marriage either.

Well, ask her how she would feel if the tables were turned...if you had an affair while you were 'bowling'...but you really wanted to stay on the same league that OW was on...how would SHE feel in that case?

Of COURSE you radiate distress right now...what could she possibly expect you to feel if you're hanging around the guys she was with?!?!?! DUH!!!

Well, tell your counselor to get a clue...that of course there is no way that you would ever feel comfortable with her being back in the same situtation where the A's occurred, and back in contact with those people...tell your counselor that you're shocked that they could even consider that that kind of scenario would be remotely healthy for your marriage...ask them if you should go ahead and purchase condoms for her before she goes too? Even if nothing happens, this would erode your trust in her...which is ALSO a big part of the marital issues right now...what is your counselor doing about THAT?!?!

OK...she feels withdrawl from her 'sport'. So did my wife when we QUIT playing the online game where she met OM. Well, welcome to the changes to our lives that we have to make in order for us to recover from your poor choices. Time to find a NEW hobby then...one that both of us can share and grow together with.

LOL...guess what? I learned to crochet...my wife can do any kind of craft you can imagine, and this was a good way for us to spend time together. Now, me being a man, I had to modify this for myself...after I learned how to make scarves and such, I turned around and used that craft to make myself a pouch for my sling-stones (I hunt with slings, atl-atl's, etc...). Made them out of the same fiber I use to braid my slings....LOL.

But the point is, it's something we can do TOGETHER. Oh, and now that we're a year and a half into recovery, we also play online games again...TOGETHER. Instead of logging in seperately and her being able to sit and chat with OM (who is now long gone out of game...guess if he couldn't get what he wanted there he moved on...), we spend the time playing TOGETHER...and her monitor is always turned towards me now...she does that herself. So that I know that nothing is going on...and we have keyloggers on all the computers...that she knows is there. It doesnt matter...she's got nothing to hide now.

You get the idea. Let her know that she needs to either find a way to use her sport to BUILD your marriage and trust in her, or find another hobby. A marriage is about SUPPORTING each other...you're willing to do your part...how about her?

Owl,

Thank you so much for your input.

I really do agree with you. We go to the MC again tomorrow. We are going separate 1 hour each tomorrow and I am going to go 1st and mention that I would appreciate her not supporting that idea. I really don't have a good feeling about it.

I mean I feel like I throw in the towel if I give in at this point.

I wish finding another hobby was so simple. She has been doing this hobby now for 35 yrs. More so the last 4 yrs though. A real life of Riley type the last 4 yrs. Gone at least 1 time a month for 3 - 4 days sometimes, twice a month from Feb - Nov. In August and Sept 10 days each. Way too much IMO.

Anyway, she was playing golf with me but stopped that about 4 yrs ago. I don't even go anymore to play. She says to do something with me at the moment is a real irritation. Imagine what goes through my mind when I hear that statement. (what does she think I am irritated at)

I would love a change of hobby, something we could do together. In fact we were looking at Cabins to purchase in the Mountains this spring. A place to go and relax together. Maybe fish, hike, just hang out and read, swing from the bedpost. You get the picture, before all this broke, and I mentioned then that for us to do the cabin thing, she might need to cut down on her hobby so we could justify the cabin and time we wanted to spend there. That was meet with a huge disagreement.

The Cabin thing reminds me of the fog and rewriting history. We were both so happy looking for this and talking about retirement one day and going to it every other weekend or so. She was even adamant about the privacy of a bedroom at one place because she knew we needed the privacy for sex. (The master was a loft over the den). We both had the same visions happiness goals, etc… All that seems to be lost in her fog now.

Back to the Hobby thing. I just don't know how to overcome that right now.

I am willing to try my part though.

I decided yesterday to implement some withdrawel of my own so to speak. No more ILY's, no more kiss goodbyes or hello, no more wanting to cuddle. I have been pathetic. I bet she has been about sick of me. Last night it began. I actually feel a little better about myself.

She actually slide over next to me in bed during the night and blew me a kiss good bye as she told me to be careful on my way to work.

Be Careful is the new substitute for ILY in her opinion I guess. She has been saying that a lot.

Thanks everyone for encouraging me to try the new approach. I should have been more perceptive, but I guess I have been in my own funk.

Yesterday was our 2-hour session with MC. Supposed to be 30 minutes each by us and then 1 hour together with MC. Turned out to be over 1 hour with WW and about 40 minutes with me (BS), then about 15 together.

The bottom line, MC still thinks I should give in and say to my wife that I am ok if she goes to her horse show as long as NC is agreed to. IMO, there is no way for that to occur. Even if she honors NC verbally, she would still see him if nothing else from a distance across the ring or in a barn area.

MC suggested maybe I allow my youngest son to go with her. I still feel uncomfortable with it because if she sees OM I fear we start all over.

At the end of our session we talked about some issues and she basically got mad and sad nobody is listening to her, that she keeps telling everyone she does not want to work on our M and is just tired of working on it. She says that I seem to believe if we just don't talk about it, (her not wanting to work on it I guess) that I am hoping the problem will go away. Then as we leave the MC office she says we need to come back next week. How strange. The MC says my wife is "presenting" differently than when we 1st came in. For about 2 weeks my WW wanted to work on issues, felt bad about A, etc… Now she does not want to work on issues, but still says she feels bad about A. It even has the MC baffled.

That is very hard to hear. I feel like I don't even know who my wife is anymore. Alien abduction is what comes to mind.

I feel so alone and awful today. Our oldest son had a ballgame last night so she went to the school to do a PTA type function with or youngest and I took our oldest to his game. I really dreaded coming home because I thought the tension would be terrible.

When I got home she could not have been in a better mood, really talkative, laughing about stuff, making jokes with the kids and I. She even made a joke about something the counselor told her to work on personally that she goofed up on last night. We both got a laugh out of it.

The whole time I am feeling like I am having an out of body experience. I mean it just seems weird and crazy. One minute she is saying she doesn't want the marriage. Then she agrees to next week's session and when I get home everything is just fine. Then when we go to bed she withdraws again. No physical contact at all.

This is enough to drive a sane person mad !!!!

Is this all Babble and Fog? Are the mood or personally swings normal? Is she close to crashing?

Help ? I need advice?

Dear Waiting on love,
It sounds like it is time to change mc. If your marriage counselor is not able to make the connection between healed marriage and no contact, (even just observing from a distance) it sounds like you are beating your head against the wall. You need a counselor that believes that nc is imperative to the ending of the affair and that nc has to remain in effect for the rest of your wifes life. To remain with this counselor gives your w/w the support that she needs to feed her addiction to the o/m. Its just like a reformed alcohlic saying that one drink won't hurt. You know how that story ends.
Do your homework and find a mc that agrees with the Harley's philosophy. Inmho, that is the only way mc is going to work.

Can I make a suggestion? For the sake of your marriage, throw the money you would spend on counseling in the toilet and flush it. Any "MC" who would suggest that your W stay in touch with the OM "to make her feel good" is a moron and does not understand the dynamics of marital recovery after an affair. She is leading you to a resumption of the affair, not marital recovery. Your marriage would fare better if you flushed the money, because this MC is harming your chances of recovery. She is not pro-marriage. She is doing this to make your wife "feel good," at the expense of your marriage.

Instead, contact the Harley's and spend the money on someone who specializes in adultery and is PRO-MARRIAGE. He won't give you advice that is detrimental to your marriage.

I am worried about your W's sudden exuberance and wonder if it signals her joy at the prospect of seeing the OM or perhaps she is talking to him again? Watch your back because this does not sound like someone who is in withdrawal.

And hopefully you know better than to allow her to bring your CHILD along as a chaperone to the horse show. Good grief.

Dr. Harley says that any contact with the OM just puts her withdrawal and your recovery back to Day 1:

"Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.

Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.

It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again."

More on the subject:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

kdsheartbreak and MelodyLane,

Thanks so much for your advice. I don't want to paint the picture from our current MC as inaccurate. She aggress with NC and definitely likes Harley's principles, in fact she is the one that suggested his book 4 years ago among others.

She just doesn't think it is about the OM. My wife was almost addicted to her hobby or horse shows. She feels that allowing her to go would endear her to me.

I disagree with that portion of the MCing, but I also see where the current MC is helping my wife with some other issues not even related to our marriage. Like not telling people she cannot do something. My wife wants cannot tell people no. She feels like someone will be mad at her. Her family runs over her. Overwhelms her with other issues and takes advantage of her. Always has. My wife when she was 14 and we were in high school was more like the mother of the house than her own mother. Her mother is very narcissistic.

I would love to try the MC with Harley but I am afraid she would balk. I feel like such a wimp and I am not normally indecisive or a wimp. I usually am able to make sound quick decisions and when I do so, feel good about making a decision.

Now I feel insecure with little ability to feel like I am leading our home, making correct decision, etc…

I have lost all confidence it seems. I feel pretty confident one day and a total imp the next.

Is that normal for BS? How do I start the subject with her about the MB counseling?

Question about Exposure:

I have not contacted OM since my very brief scream at him over my wife's cell phone on D-Day. Told him to stay away from my wife.

OM is not married (previously divorced). I do not have OM wife to expose. I do have his Dad's phone number, which my wife knows also.

I also have a major customer of his Name and phone number that he rents his barn from. Originally I told my wife I was calling them and his Dad. She freaked out and said it was not right for him to possibly loose his job, also said the customers were big gossips and it would be all over the industry what had happened and be talking about her.

I have not done so. Should I threaten OM with any of above or go ahead and at least expose to his Dad?

Of course the affair is about the OM, it is ludicrous to think otherwise. Who else is it about? Jiminy Cricket? If you have to forfeit the recovery of your marriage to "endear" her then where does that leave you? It's real simple: if she stays in contact she will not withdraw, nor will your marriage recover. If you have no marriage anymore, then "endearment" will get you a bunch of nothing.

Please call a qualified counselor like Steve Harley. You can counsel with him alone the first time and he can help you say the right things to bring your W into it.

I would not do any more exposures unless you think she is still in touch with the OM.

Will post more later.

Thanks Meldody for the swift kick in the pants. I am going to call Dr. Harley for myself if for nobody else.

Thanks much.

Mel,

Appointment is Monday morning next week.

Thanks for encouraging me. I am meeting with Dr. Harley himself.

WOL-

I'm glad to see that you took ML's awesome advice. I've heard nothing but good about the Harleys myself, even though I had not used them during our own recovery.

The MC you've got may have good intentions, but seems rather clueless when it comes to actually re-building a MARRIAGE. Perhaps a good IC, but not very good MC.

ANY addiction is severely determintal to a marriage. Why do you think alchoholism or drug abuse is so devestating to a marital partner??? Because all that effort is invested into the addiction instead of the marriage...

Ask your MC what they would suggest if one of the marriage partners were addicted to alcohol and wanted to go out drinking all the time, would the recommend that the spouse heartily agree to them continuing that addiction?

Now add in the additional factors from your wife's infidelity with people in this circle... this becomes a no brainer. What is the REAL difference between sending your wife to participate in this sport and allowing a known alchoholic who has permitted alchohol to ruin their marriage for years resume going back to the bar where they were known for committing adultery with other patrons there????

I'm also kind of amazed that your MC doesn't know how to handle your wife's 'change'...it sounds to me like there has been some kind of contact that occurred since your wife FIRST started MC (and was repentent, wanted to work on the marriage) and now (where she's belligerent, demanding, etc... It sounds like she started to go through withdrawl, but then the fog rolled back in.

Honestly, I think you're in a bad situation...if she's completely unwilling to do ANYTHING to reconcile, then I would think that the fog is still thick...and that makes any kind of counseling pretty iffy in value...even with the Harley's. It's likely to be good counseling for YOU...but as far as for your wife it's likely to be less than effective.

Hang in there, and see what Steve has to tell you.

I aggree that it is strange how she did change. Event he MC noticied it. She says NC is in place. The only thing that has changed is something I made reference to before and that is the fact that she gets these trade newspapers and magazines that have his picture in it or short articles about him in it. She has aggreed to throw these away, but I asked earlier if anyone thought that consituted breaking NC if she saw his picture or read an article about him.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She may be in NC and the depression may be just getting to her also. She did semi-cuddle this morning and gave me a hug as I left this morning. The hug is like one I would say you would give an uncle though. Kinda one armed and quick.

One thing is for sure. I have no idea what she is thinking at all. She can be very stubborn, so maybe she is just wanting to make a point also that it is going to be her decision and not mine. That is pretty much what happened 4 yrs ago.

Thanks

THANK GOD! I am so glad you did this. He is a pro who specializes in adultery and he won't lead you wrong. Good job, waiting!!

The weekend is usually like a rollercoaster ride. Hopefully, things will turn.

I find myself each morning waking up in a state or prayer.

Going back and forth from praying for our marriage to trying to abate thoughts of a gun to my head. (no one reading this panic. I am not about to do that, but you know how those thoughts can be, they are just oppresive thoughts which I am not about to act on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, plus the Lexapro (AD's) helps)

Today she seems to be coming out of a fog. I just get really skiddish when that happens because lately when I least expect it she just bottoms out again and looks like she has lost her last friend, mopeing around, etc... Hey I wonder if that is a sign of the crash that BobPure talks about. That would be nice. Not that I want her to hurt, but the crash seems like a stage prior to genuine recovery.

She has actually seemed interested in my input on some things today. Texted me and called me a few times already today.

I am looking forward to Mondays call with Dr. Harley. I am a bit apprehensive talking to someone so popular and widely respected but looking forward to it just the same.

This weekend was pretty much a non event. I was gone with my oldest son to a ball tournament all day Saturday and Sunday. We just spend Sat night and Sun at SS and Church services, Sunday morning and Sunday evening together.

She could have gone to my sons game but chose to stay with my youngest son at home Sat and Sun. I guess there was nothing wrong with that.

I had my appointment with Steve Harley this morning.

He was awesome. I gained some perspective on what was needed for healing of my "wound" to occur. I had never thought of my WW A as my wound.

Some very important things I learned today:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 3 steps to healing. My Healing. We both need to know this.

1) Understanding Why it happened and What happened?

2) WW needs to understand How I was affected by this.

3) We both need to know how she can guarantee to me and herself that this will never happen again.


Our weaknesses are how we become emotionally connected. In other words, our EN's are our weaknesses. I never saw it this way before.

You cannot see around the corner with your emotions. In other words when you are thinking emotionally you only see in the present.

I should not give WW advice at all in this process, even if I know it to be true. The advice even if it is true and good for her, will be rejected just because it is coming from my very lips.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve was brilliant !!! After we talked I struggled with how to talk to my WW about calling Steve for a phone consult. His suggestion was on point on how to do it. It took a great deal of courage for me approach her on the subject, but I did. While it was not the most pleasant thing to do and meet with some resistance and curiosity by my wife, she did agree to call him.

I was intrigued at her reaction. She had almost a wild curiosity to it. I really can't describe it in any other way except how a dog or cat acts just before you carry them in the front door of the vets office. They are curious, but know they do not want to go in. Even her eyes were wide open almost in a curious fear like expression.

The conversation then progressed into her crying and acting depressed again and distant. I feel like she was wanting to say something like, "I really see no point in continuing because I don't love you anymore." I resisted the urge to ask her, but just apologized for our conversation making her sad. She left our office crying and upset, but that is not the first time that has happened.

I feel like I may have LB'd in her opinion, but I know in my heart I did not. She really wanted to know what kind of questions Steve asked and what I thought the problem was as I described it to Steve. I never got into anything other than vague descriptions.

I almost dread going home tonight. I have never feared my wife, but I honestly fear the unknown and egg shells that I feel like I am walking on around her now.

My Prayer is for a great marriage and our ability to get past and through our current situation. I just pray that she will step one step at the time to do the same. The irony IMO is that if WS's would spend half the amount of time working on their marriage post D-Day as they did to deceive and coverup the A, then the marriage recovery would be a piece of cake.

That is the frustrating part.

Still Plan A'ing, but with a better understanding that the A is not my fault. Maybe had some contribuining factors, but not my fault, and it is up her to heal the wound. I can't do it for myself.

Thanks Steve if you are out there and thanks so much for my fellow poster's that have helped me to this point and are still helping others.

God Bless you All !!!

WOL, good to hear your session with SH went well. I have mine tomorrow morning and will post what he tells me.

All the vets say that recovery takes time...a very long time so expect ups and downs (rollercoaster) and keep Plan A going. Hopefully you will start to see results in the near future.

Remember, its like Bob Pure says "Plan A is a hero's gig".

HTW

I have been following your sitch for awhile also. Sound similar. I will say a special prayer for you for tonight and your appointment tommorow.

God's speed.

Yesterday after my session with SH I talked to my WW about what Steve wanted me to ask her. I basically made the appointment without her knowledge. SH wanted to talk to her, so I took his advice and mentioned it to her in the manner he suggested.

It went ok and she got weepy again, but one thing that just kills me something she said after we talked. I asked her if NC was still in place. It kinda came up because of a sarcastic comment she made about me being free to call whoever and she is not.

Anyway, I asked her is NC was in place. She says it was. I again asked if no letters, text messages, phone calls. I also asked if he had tried to contact her. She said no. I asked her if it bothered her or if she was surprised.

Her response was what really hurt.

"No, he would not do that. It would be disrespectful." I asked her disrespectful to who. She sad her. I asked why. She said because I told him not to. I said, what about disrepecting me and our marriage. It was like she never even thought of that. Almost, like she was saying. Oh, he is sooooooooo perfect and understand (unlike me) that he would never do anything to disrepect me, make me unhappy, etc........

What a crappy thing to say. I have not been able to get that out of my mind.

waiting, that is 100% fog talk so don't get to worked up over it. "He would never do anything to disrespect me", give me a break. What do you call having an affair with a married woman? That is pure fog talk.

I've heard stuff like that to so try not to let if bother you.

BobPure talks about the crash. Has anyone else experianced it.

My wife is physically getting ill, upset stomach, nausua, light headed, headaches, almost like she is falling apart. The last 3 weeks and in particular the last few days she has been worse and worse. Not to the point of doctor visit and 24 hr stuff, but she never feels good.

Is this the beginnings of a crash? Is it still withdrawel?

She interacts fine with our children, but friends of ours and other adults, she is just distant and does not talk much. Around me after the kids go to bed, she just zones out, starring at the TV or into space so to speak.

I would say those are signs of withdrawal, but maybe some of the vets who have gone through this can confirm.

She is obviously struggling with issues that are making her not well. This certainly could be the "crash" that bob was refering to.

Just try to be there for her and give her a safe place to land. Don't put any pressure on her at this time, just be a loving, caring, thoughful husband.

I know this is hard but you are doing a great job.

Today WW is talking to Steve Harley. I am very nervous about this. Hopefully it is going well and she will go through with it. Her appt is at 8am EST.

I am praying for a breakthrough, but I know today is a fact finding mission for Steve, or at least that is what I am assuming.

She really moped around yesterday until after the kids and I came home from church. My youngest told her something that seemed to break things up a bit. He was complaining about school work and she told him to quit feeling sorry for herself.

He came back with, I will tell you what. I will make a deal. You quit feeling sorry for yourself and I will do the same. It was like a cold shower and she woke up out of the fog for a few minutes. She was talkative, told me some jokes she her yesterday, actually made decent eye contact with me and participated in us watching TV together last night. Even read some stuff from some emails to me last night.

Then this morning. Back to her normal mopey self. I guess she is dreading the call with Steve.

What does this sound like to you guys.

Withdrawel still? Crash looming?

The Harley's seem to be excellent at talking to the WS. I have no personal experience, but over the last several years have heard the same thing over and over. So hang in there, help is on the way.

WOL,

Hang in there, at least she's with you, mine is 700miles away and we are trying over the phone, much harder. Good Luck and May God Bless you!

Chuck

believer,

Thanks for the encouragement. I just recieved a call from my wife. I could tell she had been crying. She told me she was asked to complete some forms and fax them to Steve. She asked me if I did the same. I told her no.

I have a 2:30 est appt with Steve and told her maybe I will be asked to do the same then.

The good thing is she is going to try and complete the forms. Said there are about 40. I don't know if that would be questions or pages, but she is working on them.

I am going to take that as a good sign. Prior to her call, if one would have asked would she do that, I would have to had said no.

I plan on not even asking what they discussed.

Chuck,

I feel for you and I know that must be very difficult. God Bless you and keep trying. Thanks for the encouragement. We all need it.

WOL

Has my 2nd appt with SH. It went well and I was asked to complete questionaire. What is odd, I found out, my wife has really LB'd me well before her A. Why didn't I have an affair. I mean everyone is tempted mentally, but IMO I could not do that.

We will talk to SH together next week. She seemed very interested in my meeting with SH. I think more so from a validation stand point on some stuff Steve said.

SH really knows his stuff. I wish everyone could talk to him. Heck, he should be on PBS speaking this stuff. Divorce and affairs would be cut down dramatically.

Congrats on your progress.

Lem

waiting! I am so very glad you are counseling with Steve! He is just awesome. He is very skilled at pulling fogged out WS' out of the fog. If it can be done, he will be the one to do it. Good job!

waiting, glad to hear your WW is talking to SH. Your doing a great job so far so keep it up.

This takes time so be patient and you should start to see some results.

Lemon, Mel and HTW,

Thanks for the encouragement again. Plan A is hard work and the sessions have resulted in EN and LB Q being answered by both WW and myself and sent to SH.

We have a joint appointment Wednesday morning.

Wife is in and out of it. Sometimes seems normal, actually like she has normal thoughts, ie talking about the future and stuff and other times, zones out. I am trying to keep a level attitude.

She does not want to go to the local high school football game tonight with the our 2 DS and I. Wants to stay home and not make "happy face" as she puts it.

I dread tonight because everyone is going to ask if she is ok and how she is doing and I know it is all over town about what is going on, so I feel so self conscience about it.

I feel like a failure at times. A failure as a husband and meeting her needs.

Trying to keep my chin up though and not allow it to turn into 2 chins. (I eat out of frustration <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Anyway, thanks again.

Well here is the update to the weekend.

Friday night, she did not go to the football game with us (2 DS's)

Saturday, we went to our fav. college football teams game. It was pretty good. Then went to my brothers 40th B-day party.

Sunday, church, etc.. lunch with friends, then major fog time. Zoned out on the way home from lunch, napped upstairs staring out our bedroom window then all of the sudden, comes downstairs and announces she has to go to town to get stuff at Target. I ask if she wants some company. Guess what, Nope. She wants to go by herself. Says she has done all the "rules" and worked hard all weekend and just needs to get out for a little while. Arrggghhhh !!!

Not much of a weekend at all, but no real arguements. I am plan Aing but I really need affection, could use to SF, but mainly a genuine hug or kiss and a reassuring I am sorry and I love you would be a big booster shot.

I also think her sister (who did the exact same thing) is a major distraction for us working things out. Her sister bolted for her OM and married him one month after divorce. My wife at the time did everything she could to get sister to leave OM and concentrate on her marriage. Now she cannot take her on advice. I just worry that sister is encouraging her to leave and "follow her heart" so to speak. Makes me want to puke.

Wow, I just realized how much I vented. Anyway, we will see what the morning brings. Good night All.

My wife was just like that after she came back to me. Withdrawal sucks big time. Snowbelle had this to say in another thread:-

"Withdrawal really puts us BS's over the edge. We want our WS automatically to disengage from the OP, turn their "love" to rabid hate for that person, and fall into our arms telling us how sorry they are and how they plan to make it up to us.

Save it for the soap operas. The fact is that your wife has nursed a whole life with this OP for some time (weeks or years, it really doesn't matter) and she has to grieve the loss of that crutch. She may truly want your marriage to survive while she still wants to be with her "soulmate" (yeah, the one who never calls HER). It takes time for the WS to cut the strings that bound them to the OP and see the relationship for what it truly was. Hang tough. It's hard on you now, but it will be even harder on her when the dawn starts to break through. Then she will really need you."

I found it really did just take time. My wife is now almost back to normal and we are able to re-build our marriage. We are doing the MB audio course.

When she came back, I found myself just like you describe - just wanting affection - but she could barely stand the sight of me - couldn't bear physical contact or even eye contact. Funny thing is before she left, she we had SF on a regular basis with no sign of anything being wrong. Then DD and she left for 2 weeks, came back, everything was icy. (She stayed with a Girlfriend for the 2 weeks and never did sleep with the OM)

As BS's we just can't work this out. It was exactly what snowbelle said - you expect a penitent return from your wife along with her doing whatever she can to make amends. Yeah right. Never happened. But bit by bit, we are recovering. After withdrawal, we have had some of the most satisfying SF ever.

I did get an "I'm sorry" after a couple of weeks, but still haven't had a real genuine "I love you" - and I frankly don't want the words unless she really means them and I know that day is coming.

At the end of the day, she has to want to fight for your marriage. As the fog clears and as she really has NC, that will probably happen. Hang in there. All the best.

Bigkahuna,

Thanks for the post. I was really down last night before I went to bed. WS goes to bed early and usually is asleep by the time I get there.

When I got in bed she woke up and I basically just told her good night and I wanted her to know I still loved her. She said I know.

That hurts so bad. I am not clingy anymore and I have dropped the ILY's but I have taken advice from other posters to occasionally let her know I still love her, but saying it in a way that means I do not expect a response.

I feel like I have more self respect that way.

This morning she actually snuggled a little close to me in bed while the kids were in the shower. Mind you it was not what we usually do. Normally we are like pieces of pasta all wrapped up together, but since D-day that has changed.

Also, not to provide too much info (TMI) but we have always slept buff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> since day one 21 yrs ago. During 1st EA withdrawel and counseling she went to PJ's for awhile.

Now she is back to PJ's again. I know she is uncomfortable because she tugs at them all night and huffs and puffs as she tries to straighten them during the night.

My question for even bringing this up is WHY? Have any other BS's experianced this? Any former WS's have any input on why?

Anyway, maybe a small breakthrough this morning but as usual I am not counting on much of anything. I hope that is not showing a lake of faith in God. I just am trying to be a little gaurded.

waiting, my WW says she feels uncomfortable getting dressed in front of me know. I believe this is a normal trait of a WS since they have lost the intimacy towards the BS.

Dr. Harley says that women are unable to love two men at the same time, so when the feelings for OM start to subside they should start to return to the BS.

Give it time, lots of time. You are doing great.

Just continue to Plan A and give her time.

I'm following your story

HTW,

I have noticed and even mentioned to my WW that she is going in the closet to get dressed. It just drives me nutty, but I am trying to stay focused.

I also hate the fact that I look around at other women now and wonder, hum, what would it be like to be free of this mess, but then I snap out of it with a prayer or something. I hate feeling like that.


HTW, you are a great encourager. Thanks much.

waiting, that is a feeling that most if not all BS go through at some point, but it would really makes things much worse if we acted on it.


I'm an optomist at heart even though sometimes I get really down when times are tough (as they are now).

My MIL told me "it gets lighter after midnight" to which I replied what if it's only 10:00? So just remember things can't stay bad forever. When things are this bad, the only way for them to go is up.

We'll get there one way or the other

Waiting,

HTW, you and I seem in such similar cirumstances!! Your D-day was the beginning of my D-week! My wife, about 2 weeks after d-day, started dressing behind closed doors!! At first it bothered me, but now I just make sure she doesn't see me!! Occasionally, I'll let her "catch a glimpse of me in my underwear", but why not let her wonder? Hang tough.

MWiL,

I have noticed some similar posts. I even noticed that my DOB is the same as HTW's NC-day. Not that it means anything but just strange.

One thing that is amazing too me is how my WW can go from seeming perfectly normal at work (we work together) when things are needing to be discussed and with the kids and around friends like yesterday. Then turn it off when we are alone. How do they do that and why?

Another thing is at work if things are very stressful she actually acts like she has sympathy for me on that, and I want to say, you know most of what I do at work would be must easier if I did not have to deal with all the crap I am dealing with personally with her at the moment. Of course I bite my tounge. Would not want to LB you know.

I guess I am spewing sarcasm left and right today. I am just about fed up, BUT NOT GOING TO GIVE UP.

Whew !!! I really do need to run this afternoon to vent some energy.

Thanks for the advice also. I need it. I am getting close to needing a 2x4 I think.

Another frustrating night.

I came home after work to take care of me. Ran 45 minutes. 1st time running in months. Came in, she fixed a nice supper, Grilled London Broil and salad, but after that, I start working on a ceiling fan she bought to install in our den. She bought it back in July and it has been in our Garage this whole time. Anyway, I worked on it until about 10pm. She stays upstairs in the guest bedroom our oldest DS decorated tonight for Christmas. She says she is enjoying the tree, but once again, she is huddled up with another book and stays up there the entire time I am downstairs working on the fan.

Then I ask her to help me by holding a ladder and ask if there is something wrong the reason she is upstairs by herself. Basically she said she was comfortable and enjoying the tree. I said I would have liked the company downstairs while I was working for 3 hours on the fan. She says, I didn't ask you to put it up. No crap I thought, but she did buy it and wanted it put up, so I am trying to show something for her in the way of Love by doing something for her.

It is like there is no notice of what I do. I am just so frustrated by her indifference to being around me.

We go to MC tommorow and then talk to SH Wednesday. I am sure tommorow will be stressful.

I am off to bed now and wonder what is waiting. I am sure it is not affection, but one can only hope.

ok, waiting, I don't know how to break this to you. But hanging ceiling fans is not exactly my idea of a fun time so I can understand why your W was hiding out. In fact, when my DH does stuff like that, I try my best to ESCAPE. Yesterday morning, he found me while hanging my new light fixture in the kitchen and forced me to ruin the circulation in my arms for LIFE by making me hold up the light fixture for HOURS while he fumbled with a screw!! So I decided, next time I see him starting to do something like that, I will suddenly remember an appointment for a pedicure and skedaddle!!

I am really sorry I can't be more supportive, but I don't think most females find hanging light fixtures anything but aggravating. Yes, we sure appreciate it when you do it for us, but we don't want to help!

i am sorry she is so indifferent, but that should change as she goes through withdrawal with the guidance of SH. Hang in there, my friend, it will get better!

Mel,

Thanks so much. After reading your post I saw how silly and hyper sensitve I was acting. I guess a side affect. Normally I am a loner on stuff like that.

Thanks for the perspective.

waiting, it really was a wonderful gesture, though! That is the kind of stuff that does deposit love units even though you can't see it right now. Unfortunately, she is just not responsive now. But, I wager she will be. You are on the right path and are doing exceptionally well!

[quoteAlso, not to provide too much info (TMI) but we have always slept buff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> since day one 21 yrs ago. During 1st EA withdrawel and counseling she went to PJ's for awhile.[/quote]

Thank heavens this board is ANONYMOUS!!

Sigh.

We have always slept naked - my wife does like undies and a singlet - but she always has.

When she had just come home, we slept in seperate rooms for a couple of nights - I basically told her if she didn't want to sleep with me she could sleep in the office on a mattress on teh floor - not real understanding I know. Silly thing is even though she could barely look at me or speak to me and couldn't stand being close to me, that first morning when she came home, She walked in on me in teh shower. We have always followed each other into the shower so I was really pleased with the way things were at the time that she didn't have a problem letting me see her naked every morning - I couldn't touch her even if she was dressed mind you, but boy, the sight of her did keep me from going crazy for a few weeks before she decided to exorcise some demons with some nice SF one night.

It was just strange that she let me see her naked when the withdrawal was so acute and her feelings so ttrong for the OM. Also weird is that the day before I discovered her affair, we were making love in the usual enthusiastic manner - couldn't quite figure that one out either - asked her about it a couple of weeks ago and she basically said that it would have been a dead give away of the affair. The OM was pretty PO'd when he found out we were still doing it too especially when he hadn't made any headway in that area!

Ah. I am so glad she never could bring herself to do it with him even in the 2 weeks she was gone from home. There but for the grace of God.

Wed morning we both have a phone consult with SH together. We talked to other MC today and she is big time in the fog. I am so drained about her tude. I hope SH has good luck tommorow. She is so confused on what the real issue is.

I am just tied of not getting a feedback from her. I need something from her. She told the MC today that she is just tired. Oh my gosh, she is tired. I am tired. We "dance" around each other and like she is the hurt one.

I just need a breakthrough. Maybe Wed morning will bring that. I pray to God it will happen. I feeling like this. I looking at other couples and being jealous for that picture again in my life. I feeling like my dog gives me more love and affection than my wife. She is actually glad when I come home.

I work hard all day. Come home, work hard around the house. No deal. No appreciation for the fact that I provide a good living, a good home, am a good Dad, she never wants for anything, I bust my chops and she can't feel for me.

Poor wife, just can't bring herself to feel for me. She had no problem falling in love with someone she really did not know anything about in less than 3 months.

After 20 years of marriage, where does that leave me. My MC today asked us to write down some things that we where sad about about the other person taking in our lives.

I really don't understand the point, but one thing I am really ticked off about is that my wife took away my feeling of trust in a marriage. I look at her lips and don't see her lips and how lucious they are. I see something some other creep kissed and the fact that she actually went to him.

Oh God, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I pray for a breakthrough tommorow. I really do. I pray I will be able to forget things like this. I pray for a normal life. I pray for the day I become a dad again without the baggage trying to do battle to hold our marriage together. I pray for a time of peace to feel like I can go to my wife who used to be my best friend and just talk about stuff.

She seems to forget we actually had a relationship before. It is so painful. God it is so painful and I feel like such a whining pitiful male that has no confidence. I used to never be the way.

I was strong and sure of things. Sure I had doubts about stuff, but now my life is completely turned upside down and she can't bring herself to smile at me or be a wife to me or even act like a friend.

Sex, kissing, conversation, none of that was a problem before her little affair and now she makes everything seem like it was a problem.

I may be slow at times, but I promise I am not crazy. We did have a good relationship that worked.

Oh my God, please forgive me for ranting. Fellow MB buddies, please forgive me for sounding so pitiful.

Maybe the sunshine and a call from SH will change the outlook tommorow.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

All I can say is I know EXACTLY how you feel. I was in the EXACT same situation. It does get better - not sure how long for you since DD but my DD was at the end of August this year.

Hang in there mate - it will get better.

Yep. Just looked this up. This could have been written by me. It really will improve for you. She is probably still in withdrawal and in a fog. She will come out.

waiting, from what I have read it takes a long time for the feelings to come back. Please don't expect everything to return to normal in a few days or even weeks. It takes months!!

Try not to get discouraged and continue to Plan A. Just try to give without any expectations, that is what Plan A is all about.

Your WW can't return anythiing to you right now, but in time when the feelings start to come back you may start so see some signs.

Trust me, I know exactly how you feel.

Time and Patience my friend. You will get there.

sorry abt the poor type but I am using my phone to post.

today was tough. we did session together with sh and I thought it went well until after the session. sh wanted us to share to each other our en's. we did and she cried and said after that she felt less hope after than before. she insists there are issues she can't work past in the past on our relationship. I love busted a bit by telling her how hurt I am that her family has not called me or even called me on my birthday. she exposed herself to her family and it is like they r made at me.

anyway she cried a bunch. said she doesn't know how much more she can take. still says divorce is what she wants but is determined to give all this a chance.


SH pointed out to us not to get ahead of him and try to look for a solution to our problems. Just complete the excercise of EN's and tommorow we do LB's. Then we talk to him again together.

Is is normal for things to seem worse before they get better. How critical is it to have family support. She also is very tied to her hobby which is where 2 of her affairs began.

It just seems hopeless.

Does anyone have any thoughts.

I would not put it past her family may also be offering her a safety net, ie job, gas allowance, health insurance, place to live, etc...

I am not saying her family is aggreeing with the affair, but I do think that our marraige has been described by a WS in fog to her parents and as a result I have been made to look overly jelous, controling etc... when in fact, I suspected an affair well before D-day.

I also, suspected one before. I am not sure her parents understand all this.

What should I do? Go to her parents with real version or back off and work on marriage. My wife said if I go to them to tell them how hurt and I an let them know what all my thoughts are that it will be very difficult for us to work things out and will only make it more difficult for her parents to ultimately get over everything.

What should I do?

I think you should set the record straight with her family. But don't expect too much as blood is thicker than mud. But be assured that the story your WW is telling your ILs is much more sanitized than what really happened. Further, I am sure you are a very bad guy in the story she is telling them. So at some point, you have to tell the ILs the real story.

But before you do, consult with SH. He is in a better position to advice you.

Thanks UVA. I will try to find a way to talk to SH about this. It just seems like every turn we take there is an uphill battle ahead. Like is just being relentless and wants to see our marriage destroyed.

I really need a breakthrough. We need a breakthrough.

Thanks for the advice UVA.

By the way is UVA a UVA Cavalier? Just curious.

"By the way is UVA a UVA Cavalier? Just curious."

Yes

UVA,

Thanks for the encouragement again. I am a Yellow Jacket. ie Ga Tech. Good luck this weekend. It should be a good football game.

Thanks again.

To All who have followed thusfar and been a great encouragement.

Last night was a little better than the day. After our couseling session with Steve Harley and our EN review with each other, we both had to go to work. We work in the same office (our business). Well there was a little timeout. She had a nail appointment. Then she came to the office.

The day went ok, she then talked to our former brother in law who works for us. (my wifes sister is the one that had an affair on him, and we remain close to him)

She cried alot with him and they talked for about an hour. He encouraged her to keep trying to work on things.

I went to church with our youngest son and our oldest son had a Fellowship of Christian Athletes leaders meeting at school. Wife will not come to church on Wed night even though until June of this year she was there every Wed night teaching youth. (A became hugs, kisses, etc... in June) She resigned from teaching in July.

Came home and she was basically nice and not teary or combative. Actually told me she was going to get a bath rather than just disappear. Then after her bath actually told me she was going to bed. Please understand, I am not obsessing but she has basically quit telling me much of anything she has been doing lately.

I came on to bed. Told her good night.

This morning after I woke up the kids, she slide over next to me and not really cuddled but did lie beside me. Formally she has been completely on the other side of the bed and rolled over with her back to me or a pillow between us.

What should I make of this behavior after such a what I perceive as a bad day.

I mean it is nothing great, but it seems she actually moved toward me a little last evening emotionally and then some physically. Actually asked me if I was wearing a pullover this morning because it was going to be cold.

HUH??

Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on in her mind possibly?

waiting, this is why they call it a rollercoaster ride. Don't put too much into your WW coming closer. My WW does it on occasion but I don't know why either.

Just keep going with a strong Plan A right now and try to meet whatever EN's she lets you.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you so I know what you are going through. It is very important that you do not LB right now. You have to gaurd your WW Love Bank.

Then slowly chip away at her emotional wall.

It takes time...lots of time.

You can do it.

I wouldn't see it as a bad day from your description. Hey. She is trying.

When my wife came home, for the first few weeks I didn't think she was trying at all. But when you find MB and learn about withdrawal, it helps you understand a bit more. My wife would be close, then withdrawn etc. I didn't think she was trying. I even said to her that if I had had an affair and I came home I would be doing anything and everything to make ammends - because I didn't have a clue what she was feeling. In another thread, snowbelle put it like this....

"Withdrawal really puts us BS's over the edge. We want our WS automatically to disengage from the OP, turn their "love" to rabid hate for that person, and fall into our arms telling us how sorry they are and how they plan to make it up to us.

Save it for the soap operas. The fact is that your wife has nursed a whole life with this OP for some time (weeks or years, it really doesn't matter) and she has to grieve the loss of that crutch. She may truly want your marriage to survive while she still wants to be with her "soulmate" (yeah, the one who never calls HER). It takes time for the WS to cut the strings that bound them to the OP and see the relationship for what it truly was. Hang tough. It's hard on you now, but it will be even harder on her when the dawn starts to break through. Then she will really need you."

Snowbelle has a lot of wisdom in those words.

I really see it as a positive sign really. It will get better and you will pull through.

I sure hope you are praying for her and the prayer chain at church is too. If you are keeping it under-wraps - don't. Your pride is not important here - your marriage is and some humiliation for us BS's is a small price to pay to get our wives back again.

[quote]I sure hope you are praying for her and the prayer chain at church is too. If you are keeping it under-wraps - don't. Your pride is not important here - your marriage is and some humiliation for us BS's is a small price to pay to get our wives back again.[quote]

Thanks BigKahuna - I have 2 questions for you or anyone.

I am praying for her and our marraige. That is what keeps me going along with the support I am getting here.

I am curious about something. I have done no exposure on the OM's side. I really don't know who to expose to. I have his Dad's name and the people the guy leases the barn from but that is really it. He is not married. Exposure has been in our town with basically our family and my wifes family, pastor and our very best friend.

Questions 1)

Do I need to do any exposure or threaten exposure on the OM side. I assume there has been NC since 9/11/05. That was our d-day. Or should I save exposure as a bullet if NC is broken or found to be broken.

Question 2)

If she shows affection, should I respond or withhold as to make myself not appear as needy? I am playing it pretty cool right now. No ILY's and I am not trying any bodily contact at the moment.

We are exactly 2 months from d-day. She slid a little closer to me this morning in bed and I sensed she either wanted to try to cuddle or just plain out did. I really wanted to stick to me withholding affection myself but if she is starting affection I am confused as to what to do.

Thanks

wiating, I am not bigkahuna, but I will take a stab at your questions. You should not be withholding affection AT ALL. Look for every opportunity, without appearing clingy or needy, to show affection.

No further exposure is necessary. The purpose of exposure is to bust up the affair so there is no need to expose.

I agree 100% with MelodyLane here. I would not under any circumstances withold affection. Her wanting to show affection is a good positive sign and you should respond accordingly. You have to understand she is in an emotional rollercoaster. Unfortunately, today she may be affectionate and tomorrow she may be distant again. In Bill Harley's book surviving an affair, the WW describes this as some days feeling in love with spouse and other days feeling nothing but then over the course of time, the days in love increased.

Look, if she wants to be close, be close. Meet her EN's as much as you can. If it leads to SF, excellent - I am sure you could use it. It is the most frustrating time of your life right now but I think you will pull through it and she will be in love with you again.

My timeline is roughly as follows:-

DDay 8/28 this year. My wife had been having an affair with our next door neighbour, our eldest sons football coach since the end of May this year, 2005. They would meet for walks, coffee, hand holding, kissing, etc. She was willing to walk out on our 23 year marriage (+4 years before), 3 children. Thought since the kids liked the neighbour they would all be happy to play happy families together. She got her first shock when the kids told her no thanks - they would be staying with me. Her memory as she drove away was of our 14 year old bent over sobbing in the driveway. I don't think she expected that.

Wife left home 8/30 - stayed with a girlfriend and had some passionate sessions with OM but could not bring herself to have sex with him.

9/3 told me she was going to come back home within 1 week. I didn't know at the time but she had promised OM she would wait 1 week before coming home - he was a next door neighbour - he wanted a chance to patch with his wife. He hassled my wife that week to try and get her to change her mind. Withdrew a fair few love units in the process. (Yay)

9/9 she came home. wanted to sleep seperately - I showed her where the office was (I know - I was all heart - but she left and she wanted to sleep seperately) - lasted 2 nights before we slept in same bed. But she wanted no physical contact, coud barely look at me or speak with me. During the course of that week, she nearly cracked a few times and went back to OM. Fortunately resisted that feeling.

We went to church together the next day and when we got home I sat her down and told her I wanted to know everything about it - how it started etc. Blow by Blow stuff. She resisted pretty much but then agreed and we spent a few hours while she came clean. I have had some questions since and she has been open and honestly answered everything. I know it hurts her going back in her mind but it helps me to come to terms with everything.

I hadn't found MB and really had no clue what was going on in her mind - our counsellors (Pastor & Wife) really didn't prepare us for what was happening emotionally - I was told my wife was "confused" etc and that I just needed to "love her" etc. Really, all that was like motherhood and apple pie - but no earthly practical use to us. We struggled on for a while - wife was getting through withdrawal etc.

That Sunday night, 9/11, she had been home a week and we were talking after dinner with the kids (Sons 12,14,16) about maybe moving and stuff like that and it was like the weight of the world decended on her - she started crying and saying she was sorry.... It was a nice moment - I had been waiting for her to crack and say sorry. It was hugs all round and we sat down together on the lounge and she just wanted me to hold her. I thought I was in - SF for sure tonight but no - the ice queen came back as soon as we went to bed. Again I had no understanding of what was happening as I hadn't found MB yet.

At the end of second week home, Friday 9/16 she wanted to go out and walk by the water near our home. She initiated physical contact and we did some nice kissing. When we got home and went to bed, it was like the ice woman had moved in again, but something happened and we made love. After she said it felt so good. But the ice queen was in and out for he next few weeks after that.

So anyway, we struggled on for around another 3 weeks I suppose of ups and downs emotionally - I was getting frustrated and my wife really was confused about what and why she was feeling like she did. Counselling was no use. I was getting pretty depressed. She was still having feelings for the OM - couldn't work any of that out - didn't make any sense.

Meanwhile, after she came home, the OM did promise N/C and he only dealt with me - although he did speak to my wife once at length after she had just come home really giving her a serve about leading him on (Ca-Ching Ca-Ching went the withdrawals in the love bank). They did also speak once more that week as we both wanted to know what the others were doing as the domestic relationship over the fence was a little tense. We decided to move temporarily to give everyone some breathing space although in reality I only did it to make my wife happy. Fortunately we own our home outright so we were able to rent another property close by - I still work from my home.

Fast forward to 10/20 - I was feeling depressed about where we were going and was really dispairing about coming to a happy place in our marriage. I went for a search on the Internet about affairs and divorces looking for some statistics etc. WHat I found was MB. Downloaded and printed out teh affair FAQ's. It was just like he had written them for us. Suddenly everything became clear. It was such a relief and weight off our shoulders - we started to understand and see what had been happening. It was seriously the best revelation I have had in my life I think.

So I got HNHN, LB, Surviving an affair, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, and as we are in Australia, I also ordered the Audio CD Course which we are working through now.

I also started reading these forums.

So here we are now. It is 11 weeks since D-Day and 9 weeks since my wife came home, 8 weeks I guess of 100% no contact. My wife tells me she loves me - and I think she really means it. We have a lot of physical contact - not just SF. We are talking a lot. We really are meeting a lot of EN's.

I don't pretend our case is typical or usual or anything. I know we have a long, long way to go. I still can't spend an hour without thinking about the maggot next door and what he tried to do with my wife and tried to do to our family. I still get resentful when I can't play certain types of music or can't see a certain type of movie because she associated things with him. I can't get used to the fact that she will probably always love the OM in some way. I still have questions I want answered. I haven't got it all together. We are still struggling to make our way through all this. But I do know we both are determined to make it to the other side with our marriage and family intact.

We are only up to lesson 2 in the HNHN audio course.

I have to kick myself now when I realise again it's only 8 weeks into recovery. Feels like much longer.

I wish I could stop thinking about the affair all the time. So does my wife.

Sorry for hijacking.... I hope my story gives you hope.

Wow BigKahuna,

Thanks for the details. Don't appoligize for "highjacking". I really appreciate it. Your story shows me hope just as you desired.

My sons are both very frank to their mom what they believe in fact, my oldest told her he would still love her but would not be able to have anything to do with her. She told me how much it hurt her today to hear that. Oh well I thought, but I did not say anything. I really don't want her hurt, but that is the consequences of her actions.

She still does not get it though. The fog is still there. It is all about how unhappy she has been for years. I guess the lies that she and the OM told each other have become like cement in her mind. My BIL told me that is how the OP moves in. The WS and OP talk about how bad things are at home or whatever and they instantly build repore with one another and over time they have "soulmate feelings for the OP".

I am starting to understand more now, but it is a process. Reading all the posts to me and others have helped a great deal.

Thanks again.

I was very quick to acknowledge my faults in our marriage. I am a pretty domineering personality and my wife did not feel loved or cherished for many years. I asked her the other day what she thought I would do when she left - she said she didn't think I would care. That broke me up.

She knows the affair was wrong. I know I was wrong with the way I treated her emotionally. SHe knows she has faults too. That is the beginning of our healing.

When we went to Church together that first Sunday she was home, the Pastor preached on strongholds in the mind. The next Sunday he preached on repentance. Boy, did she get nailed in both of those. She just found them so helpful.

You can listen to them on-line if you are interested - www.ccc.org.au and follow your nose to service archives.

waiting, thanks for your very kind words to me on Hopethisworks thread yesterday. I was so anxious about his situation that I had somehow missed it.

I really like what BigKahuna is telling you.[great job, BigKahuna!] He is going through a pretty normal recovery and is taking all the right steps. As you can see in his case, his W is beginning to turn towards him. You are doing all the right things, waiting, and I think your W will also come around.

Thanks for the input Mel.

I find your words comforting and guiding. BigKahuna's info while painful for him to pen, was especially helpful to me.

I have come to realize that my marriage is over. Not in a sense that we can't recover, but the charade of what I thought we had is over. We have to build a new marriage and that is going to take 2. I am willing, she might be. I feel less anxious when she unexpectedly leaves the house like this morning,(she says she is going to check on her grandmother and get the car washed.) I know she is not meeting the OM because he is so far away, but my mind wonders at times if she is contacting via pay phone or calling card somewhere. I also wonder if she is taking a course online for real estate or something like that.

But you know what, I am less anxious because I am taking care of myself more and not clingy anymore. In fact I am resolved that if she leaves, she leaves. I can't do anything about it. She will feel the ultimate wrath. Sure it will be hard, but she will be the loser.

I hope and pray she comes to her senses and if she is making alternate plans, she realizes they are unneccasry.

MelodyLane, You and the rest of the friends at MB have been a true strength for me. I wish she would spend time on the sight and see what some other WS's have to say and see what other families are going through.

Steve Harley is great and his insight has been invaluable but the real help has come from you guys.

God bless you all

waiting, you are absolutely right that the old marriage is dead and gone. That is exactly the right attitude.

Do you think that she might be contacting the OM via the internet or a secret cell phone? You know, you can easily check what she does online and you can put a secret recorder in her car. Do you think something is going on? I know its not fun to do, but if you are having suspicions, I would strongly recommend you cover your back by investigating them.

Mel,

Thanks for your post. I have thought alot about below.



I don't think she is using the net or email to contact him via computer. The goober probably does not know how or even have one.

I do think the following is a possibility.

1) Using a secret cell phone that she has bought. (This is how she got caught before, I am not sure she would go down this path again)

2) Using a secret calling card from a pay phone. (Not likely because she knows so many people in town and so do I and it would be highly likely that someone would say, Hey I saw you wife at the pay phone the other day. I thought she had a cell phone)

3) Using a secret calling card from her parents home or office when they are not around. (Highly likely IMO, but she insists she is complying with NC)

4) Using the internet to text message him from her parents computer. (Highly likely IMO, he is on Verizon and I think you can do to their site like Cingular and type a short text message. Only problem with this and no way for him to respond to her, so it would be a one way conversation)

5) She could be using her parents computer (with their knowledge) for her backup plan for income. She once had a real estate license that we let lapse a couple of years ago. I found and email (after D-day) where she contact the state real estate commision about reinstatement. I quized her about this and she says she thought it would be a good idea to have it if we are going to by a rental vacation home. To me that is total bull crap. Why would I want to buy a vacation home with someone that is not sure they even want to be in a marriage. IMO this is very likely.

I have done some checking behind her with recorders etc... and have found nothing so far. The only thing I can't snoop on is her parents computer and I don't have access to the either.

The only way I can think of catching her in backup plans is via a remote keylogger that installs and runs in stealth. Something I would send to her email and hopefully she would open it from their computer. I really hate even thinking about that because I don't like being dishonest and even though I don't think her parents are encourageing her to stay in the marraige, I don't think I should snoop on their computer without their knowledge. To be honest I would not even know where to start if I choose to do so.

After saying all that I have said I have one final thing to mention on this post.

She told me yesterday that if she was not trying so hard and giving it her all she would already have gone to a horse show rather than respect what I am going through.

Hum, could be some truth to that I guess, but also, she could be just gutting it out through the holidays not unlike others that have posted here.

Also, she may be actually trying and I am just being paranoid. Who knows.

My other unusual situation is as follows. True my wife had an affair, totally wrong. But she also has another love that may be harder to overcome than the affair itself. Her love of horses and horse shows. I really think that if she thought she could no longer go to horse shows that she would almost ditch the marraige anyway. The easy thing would be to recover and then both of us go to shows, but the only problem with that is the OM would be there almost every time and NC would be impossible.

So I ask, people leave jobs, move from home towns, etc... to continue NC. Wouldn't it be insane on my part after all this to have her go back to the very spot that her 2 affairs started at. Same town, same events. 1st guy died, 2nd guy is still very much alive and kicking living with no exposure or shame in his little world.

Does anyone know of a similar situation? Am I worrying about something I should not at this point?

I know our marriage is over, so it has to start all over. Our 1st marriage almost made it 21 years and that is dead and was a charade the last few years.

Seeking guidance on any of the above issues.

Thanks WOL

BobPure had a similar situation. His squid was into karate and was a referee for the clubs. His marriage is doing just fine. I'm sure you have read his story. They are both very happy now.

I suggest that you get interested in her hobby, so that you have that in common.

Thanks believer, I will check out his post. I don't remember reading that.

Wife is acting goofy again. We actually have the house to ourselves tonight. Both sons are away from the house tonight and she is just interested in lying around and being almost silent.

This is the roller coaster everyone keeps talking about I am sure.

waiting, I think your question about horse shows is a good one to present to Steve Harley. Your marriage can't survive without ending contact. I don't believe BobPure's wife goes to events that the OM will attend. But this will be a good opportunity for SH to explore.

Thanks for explaining about her contact avenues. It sounds like you have done a good job of thinking this all through. And I do agree with you about putting spyware on her parents computer, that crosses a line I would not want to cross. I guess you have to keep your eyes peeled and hope that the truth comes out eventually if she is in contact.

Mel,

I think I will mention it to Steve when I have an opportunity. SH wants me to allow him to carry her down the road about the affair and its real impact on our marriage. At the moment he has not even talked about that to her, so the horse show thing is not even on the board as far as she in concerned on the counseling sessions. She does know though that it is going to be a huge issue at some point.

I am interested what he will say. SH is going to be gone after Tbursday until 12/1 so it will be a long 2 weeks.

We are all 4 on our way to church. I am praying for a spiritual breakthrough with W today. Thanks for everyones support this week.

WOL

We are supposed to do our LB reading to each other per Steve Harleys instruction today. She made reference to it on the way back from church and said she was not looking forward to it. To be honest, I am not either, but we must do it.

Hi Waiting,

Monday morning here in Oz. We did the second HNHN audio thing yesterday identifying each others important EN's. 4 hours it took. Have you considered the MB weekend? We are finding the audio series just so helpful to us. Love is blooming. We just had such a neat weekend.

Your wife is acting goofy - Yes. That's the roller coaster for sure.

My wife is now in the "How could I be so stupid?" and "What was I thinking?" stage right on schedule and has been a little depressed. But you know what - the depression is not as bad and doesn't last as long as it used to and like I said, we had a neat weekend.

Hang in there mate - especially if your wife is open to God (which she seems to be) a breakthrough coming your way.

Bigkahuna

Sunday evening here watching football and hanging a ceiling fan still. This fan has been a huge project. Nothing in the box matches the fan. Trying to figure it out without burning the house down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would love to have my wife do the audio HNHN or MB weekend. I hope we can make it to that. At the moment she is not receptive to even going on a Christian Womens Retreat such as Beth Moore. By the way thanks for the link to your church. I had to download and install Real Audio so I haven't listened to it yet. I plan on it though.

My wife got tot he "How could I be so stupid? and What was I thinking? and I am so glad I did not screw up my life? after the 1st A. She pretty much said it for the last 3 years, of course she says she didn't really feel that way, she was just "talking" herself into it since that is what everyone expected her to do. Horse crap talk in the fog. Pardon the horse pun.

She has shown a little window opening for God. Sunday school she was actually talkative, (the last 2 months she just would sit there). Church she did sing the songs and we went to lunch with our best friends who we exposed to 1st and had a very fun lunch. She has been gone all afternoon to a bridal shower so I really haven't had any alone time with her.

BK thanks for the inspiring words of confidence. I hope they hold true. It is cold, gray and raining in North Georgia today. How is the weather in Aussie land on my tommorow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mate, the weather here is superb. Late spring. 25°Centigrade. Just beautiful. The birds are singing and all's well with the world. And yes. I did have some SF last night.

Nice on both accounts. Have a great day. I hope to see your fine land someday. An interesting article today in the Atlanta paper. In the opinion section there was an article that said people in Australia are the happiest in the world followed by US. I hope this link works.

http://www.ajc.com/sunday/content/epaper/editions/sunday/issue_34670fa5017f51f60087.html

Hey guys. Oldest DS and I had to run an errand last night to town and came home and W ans youngest DS are watching a movie. The Wizard of Oz. What irony? It appears to be a foggy morning here today. Hopefully as the sun comes out some of it will lift.

Oldest DS told me yesterday that W told him this past she took his advice last week when she was having a bad day. He said he told her to think of good things and pull herself up by her boot straps and try to have a good attitude. She told him it worked some. Not bad advice from a 15 yr old.

Sorry about the messed up post earlier. I was using my phone and it must have crapped out on me.

WOL.

waiting for you to finish your sentence................<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel,

Bump from my incomplete sentence. My phone must have messed up on my post. Thanks.

Well tonight was interesting. We completed our LB questionaire discussion. It took about and hour and she made it about halfway through it and broke down and cried and got mad. SH warned us about trying to not get emotional and just present the facts.

I did a pretty good job if I say so myself. I did not take anything to hard and she was totally destroyed by what I said and what she had to read to me. In fact she misunderstood one thing I said and totally bent it out or proportion.

Anyway, it (the excersise) must have been a LBter to her. She is angry and me, herself, sad, generally pissed off and now gone to bed in another room. I hope this does not turn into a permenant thing.

I really don't know what to do as I am following SH advice and it seems that both on the EN and LB exercise she was caused great distress.

What should I do. I told her that if we can't be honest with one another about issues without fear of the other one moving out to the other bedroom, then we will probably shut down. She said she understood, but she really did not care. Tonight she is not going to frustrate herself by sleeping in bed with me.

Don't know what to think about this, but at least I am not begging her or insisting she sleep in our bed.

I agree, don't beg. Let her alone. What set her off?

I am not sure. I think it was when she saw my bottom LB and EN where her top and visa versa. She also got upset when I said a major LB was Independent Behavior and what I said was my major LB.

I feel like she was thinking, this is hopeless, we will never get past this, etc...... I do think she is trying or she would not have gone through the exercise.

She also said she has been on the website a lot lately especially today and does not aggree with couples spending soooooo much time together. She says she would feel smothered. I don't understand because SH told her to not get ahead of him, but she is.

I think I know were SH is going, but she is not seeing the big picture IMO.

She also still does not see her A's as being the issue.

waiting, she won't see the big picture for awhile. She is too close to the crime to be objective about her affairs. She is still in defense mode. As she gets farther away from this, she will see it more and more objectively.

And yes, she would feel very smothered right now spending 15 hrs a week with you. That is because she has grown detached from you. This is a perfectly normal reaction for where she is right now! As you grow closer and learn to meet each other's en's she will welcome spending time with you. But you must be patient!! It will be 3 steps forward, and 2 steps backwards.

I know you get frustrated, but you are actually farther along than many couples were at this point, who are fully recovered and have great marriages now!

Yes you are right, I do get frustrated but I am improving. I guess I am becomeing detached myself. Must be a result of my EN's not being met. I mean I know I did not cause the affairs, but obviously I was not meeting some needs of hers or it would not have happened. Or at least it would have been a lower chance of happening.

I realized after the EN discussion last week and talking to SH why my views of our marriage are so different from hers. Besides the fact that she is rewriting the history of our marriage, I have come to realize, that my main needs, SF and Affection where being meet, so heck, I would not have noticed much was wrong anyway. We had sex 4 - 5 times a week unless one of us were sick and I would have been blind to it.

It is nice to know we are far along, but I will tell you this. I have a new appreciation for what other people go through. I just breaks my heart to read some of everyones situation. I draw hope, don't get me wrong, but I am just so amazed at how all of us fall prey to the same thing. is so lame, he can't use anything new he just goes to the same old well everytime because it keeps on working. I guess we (humans) are the lame ones.

I know what you mean. Mel is right. It will take a while for her to stop re-writing history. WS's seem to do that. I take it as a huge step that she is persisting in the counselling and questionaires with you. It surely says she is making an effort and unfortunately you just have to put up with some crap sometimes. I also agree with Mel that you are much further along that many others who post here. I too was frustrated at my lack of progress untill I actually stood back, saw others's situatons and then realised I had only put up with 2 weeks of my wife gone and am now only at the 8-9 week mark of recovery. Gee if you really want to be inspired, read "Surviving an Affair" by Harley. Wow did they have it bad.


Yes. That blows me away too. THat is why I said I didn't consider my situation typical or usual. Every night I thank God for his goodness to us.

I've only just gotten home from a day away. Sorry for not replying earlier.

Hope things are going well for you.

Well today is a new day. Last night she stayed in the other bedroom until early this morning when we got the kids up. She came back to our bed. Nothing real descent happened but at least she did move back to our bed.

We go to our local MC today. That should be interesting. We generally go there with a good attitude and then don't speak at all driving back. I have grown to dread these sessions. I actually look forward to SH sessions because I see progress. SH says for now to keep going to local MC. She is a Christian but I just see that it is more about working how to argue, let your feelings out, etc...... As opposed to MB is working on how to learn to Love again and not Love bust. I guess that is why the Harleys are so successful.

I continue to pray for a breakthrough everyday but I am content with the baby steps.

Oh yea, Remember the ceiling fan issue. I LB one time when she did not stay downstairs with me while I installed it.

I did not burn down the house and it is up and working great. I got an email from my wife yesterday. Below is the meat of the email.


Hey it ain't much but I will take it.

That is an interesting point and I can see now why regular marriage counseling is so ineffective. When couples go there, they already know how to fight and argue. Why do more of it? They need to learn to love each other. I think you hit the nail on the head!

That is so sweet about the ceiling fan! I can't tell you how much I LOVE it that my DH just fixes things around here. And when I ask him to fix something, he just does it. I really like that.

Well the MC session was stressfull. We talked about our list of items we need to forgive each other for and what we need to forgive others for and what we need to forgive ourselves for. I guess is was contructive, but my wife still hears things differently that what I say, even the MC told her that today.

We talked some in the car on the way home. It is a 1 hour drive to the MC so eventually we talk about something.

I really just plan on plugging along. She said again that the really was just tired of doing the counseling and nobody would listen to what she wanted to say. The counselor pushed her on what it was she wanted to say and that was that she was tired of trying, but she guessed she would have to try some more since that is what everybody expected her to do. I guess she is refering to me, he kid, certian family and friends, pastor. Gezzz I can't think of anyone in their right mind that would not want us to work it out.

I just will continue to plug along on plan A.

Just reporting in.

That's pretty interesting if you ask me. The thing here is (my wife says the same things sometimes in the past) it is pretty clear that we DON'T actually know otherwise we would do it. Men and Women DON'T think the same and the sooner she can come to terms with that the happier she will be. My wife is now accepting that she does need to tell me stuff like that because I DON'T see it and it is not a slight against her, it's just one of the ways we are different.

If she is still in withdrawal, she will feel like that. You can't deposit many love unis until she gets through that. Don't be too discouraged. I am sure you will get there is you just hang in there.

BigK

I just don't get why that is so tough for them to understand. I guess the whole misunderstanding thing is the venus mars stuff they write about in books. No offense to my female MB buddies and not saying men are better, I just don't get it and I know she (my W) doesn't get it. I guess that is why we keep the MC's in business huh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Hey guys,

I found out about Dorry today looking at another post. I read her sitch on her signature and her link to a guide to WW's. From what I can tell this seems like excellant info.

I would love for my wife to read this, but don't know how to bring it up without a big fight. She is spending time on MB but I don't think she is reading very many post and I know she has not posted herself. She is RLD. Anyway, most of her time is reading Harley's guides. I really think some of this info would be helpful to her.

I did print out Dorry's info. Both her sitch and guide for WW's.

If there is a FWW I would appreciate you input. I just don't want her to feel like I am beating her up of it. Again, remember, she does not feel like the A is a problem. She says it is over, blah, blah, blah and the real problem is neglect, etc.. blah, blah, blah. Don't get me wrong, I know what I did is a contributing factor, but as Dorry pointed out, most probably had a pretty good marriage until the A. I just never saw it coming.

Any input is welcomed.

I was much the same. I knew we had problems but my wife was doing a pretty good job of meeting my EN's and I can honestly say I never did stop loving her - always felt in love with her. But from her perspective, she was unhappy for years and did not love me for years. Now I know some of that is a typical WS babble re-writing history but nevertheless there is some truth there for sure.

It really seems to me your wife is really trying hard. If she is trawling the site I am sure that will help her a lot. Just a step at a time. You are on the right track. Things are looking up. You're going to make it. You can see this through.

Try looking back to DD and look at the changes/progress you have made. Not as much or as fast as you like but hey - a big improvement. It just seems to go on like that. Recovery will accelerate a bit when she is feeling better. There will be setbacks too. Remember this is a rollercoaster.

I know I need to continue to plan A and everyone says we are doing good, but I must confess. I am not having any needs meet. None, nothing at all. She knows what they are and refuses to do any at all. Says it makes her feel cheap and fake.

I wonder what she felt when she was running around on me.

Back on Topic. Since non of my needs are being meet and I growing resentful and getting to the point where I just want to rip her a good one and basically say I don't care, I will find someone that will meet my needs. I know that sounds selfish and I the feelings I have at the moment. I mean I look at single women about my age and wonder should I just say whatever and move on.

I don't want that but I am afraid the more she goes on like this that I am going to loose my Love for her. I am reading Surving and Affair. I thought I had read it before, but it was a different book.

In it Harley talks about the danger of the BS loosing Love Units.

What should I do. I am not talking about having an affair myself, I just mean I don't want to loose my feelings for her.

It is just not fair. Tonight I stayed in the dining room and paid bills. Heck most of them from her hospital stay back in July while she was in the affair. She just stayed in the den and watched the CMA awards and never came in to see what I was doing, asked how was it going or anything. Totally like I was not even around.

Am I being too touchy?

If she is still in withdrawal you should expect that. I really feel for you. You are not in a nice place clearly. It's also easy for me to say "suck it up" and it "will get better" and I really think it will - but that doesn't really help you much.


Well that might make you feel better for a while but it could be a major love buster. Mind you if you are being treated with such disrespect it may be helpful for you to outline to your wife some terms of recovery - I've been reading Love must be Tough by James Dobson - he takes a bit of a different though similar tack to Harley. Essentially says don't be walked over but do be careful to avoid disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts etc. You do have to woo your wife even though that really sucks and doesn't seem fair. Snowbelle wrote a good post about this time - I may have posted a quote here before - it bears repeating....


I feel for you and know this doesn't necessarily help you at all. But it could get worse if you follow your carnal instincts to lash out.


Actually I found this book very helpful - helped me see there are people who really go through h3ll compared to what I have gone through! I read the Dobson book because I wanted an overtly Christian perspective rather than the small c perspective Harley has (which is more palatable to non-christians no doubt) I actually find Harley's stuff more practical and also showing the nuts and bolts of recovery rather than more motherhood & apple pie style of Dobson.


I understand your frustration. Just hang in there I know you can make it. She is on a roller coaster and still in a fog. Just look again at your D-Day! Harley says it can take 6 (six) months for the feelings to subside - you have had much less than that so far. Keep calling Steve. Do what he says. Your wife seems to be willing to do this too. That's all good & helpful. Don't get discouraged. Just think you could be Mike(?) in the book and your wife could be Sue - what a piece of work she was! Things could be MUCH MUCH worse.


You are right. It's not fair. It sucks the big one. But then again, Life's not fair. We are being made in the image of Jesus. This process is making you (and me) better people. More like Jesus.

I hope this helps you.

Today we talk to Steve Harley again. We have done the EN and LB exercise with each other. Neither went very well. Wife cried alot of course.

I am praying for a breakthrough again this morning even if small.

If anyone has a moment to say a quick word to God, please feel free. It would be most appreciated.

Here is a brief update. We had a session with SH this morning. Together, apart then back together. I thought it went well. She did not. She was obviously upset, even said she did not like SH. I asked her wasn't it true she said she liked him in the beginning and she said yes, but then rather sarcastically told me she was a women and she changed her mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Basically what rubbed her wrong is when we started talking about the POJA. We really did not touch on it much, but he began to introduce it. At the end of our session he wanted us to both write up a plan on how we are both going to care for each other with our Top 4 EN's. My top 3 are Affection, SF, and Rec. Comp. She really was hung up on obviously the top 2 and said she could not and would not do either without feelings, and what would it matter to me if I thought she was only doing it to complete an asignment.

SH also said if we could not do an EN we wanted us to include in our plan why we can't and how much time we think we need to be able to do so. And also what is needed for that to take place as well.

My wife told me she absolutely would not and could not do SF without intimacy. I told her fine, I was not asking for SF and if she could not to do what SH said. Write it down, say why, etc.. and move on.

Basically she cried, shutdown and has been gone "running" errands ever since. I am at work. She does this when things don't go her way. Same behavior last time as well. She would be gone for erratic periods of time and come back with vague decriptions of what she did during the day.

As far as I know she could be at her mothers. I really don't know, but I hesitate to ask because she sees it as a LB.

I am at a loss. I am going to do the assignment and try to slowly meet her top 4 EN's (SF is her #4, I don't see that happening). Conversation and Honestly is 1 and 2. Go figure on the honesty part. She says I don't lie to her, I just don't tell her is something is bad. ie I protect her.

Any ideas? on how to approach the next 2 weeks.

OK, I obviously did not get the whole picture of what was wrong after our session this morning. Below is a copy paste of an email my WW sent me this afternoon. It is self explanatory. Also, FYI, she changed her password on her email this afternoon also and used her Mom's computer to send me the email. Why she changed it is anybodys clue.


As you can see she is pretty p*ssed off. I really do not know where we are going at this point. I am not sure if this is normal behavior or not. From what everyone is telling me we are ahead of schedule and doing good. I know it (recovery) is a roller coaster ride, but this feels more like base jumping.

Am I off, Am I reading it wrong? What should I do.

BTW, her top 4 needs are 1) Conversation, 2) Honesty and Openness, 3) Affection and 4) SF. I feel like I am all but sunk on my assignment of trying to do the 4. She doesn't want to talk much to me, I am always Honest but I have tried to protect her from bad news that would stress her, so I can improve there, but heck that means I will be bringing bad news to her., 3) Affection, she doesn't want any part of that and 4) SF , I am sure everyone gets the picture.

Help with suggestions also

There's the rub isn't it. To regain feelings of love, you need to fulfill EN's but when you aren't in love, you don't feel like fulfilling your spouse's EN's and you don't want them to fulfil yours. Your situation at the moment is where I was when my wife came home. It just took time for her to get over withdrawal. But then a strange thing happened - she made a conscious decision to "love" me - ie she remembered her vows and decided to love even if she didn't feel like it - she wanted to prime the pump in a belief that the feelings would eventually follow. It was in this spirit that we made love the first time after she came back - she felt nothing for me. Despite that it felt good I can tell you after a month of no SF! My wife said it felt so good. But she did not feel love for me for a month after that. It has only been in the last couple of weeks that she has said she loves me and she really means it.

Thing is, feelings are always going to be up & down - but as Christians we talk about unconditional love, agape love, commitment etc. Your wife needs to become aquainted with some of these concepts again. I really recommend those messages on repentance and strongholds I referred you to before.

Also your wife may still be in withdrawal. She may still be in a fog. SHe may also just be being rebellious - knowing what she has to do but not doing it. From your posts, I get the feeling this is not the case but that she is just struggling along at the moment. Give her some space. Let her think it out & process her feelings. Talk about unconditional love and commitment - you might at least get her thinking. Pray for a breakthrough. She says now she doesn't like SH - that's because he is hitting a few nerves - I think you will find she will respond when she processes his thoughts and comes to the conclusion that he is right herself.

All you can do for now is meet her needs and hang in there. She will crack one day soon and it will be a joyous occasion. Hang in there.

Wow. Harley really did hit a nerve didn't he!

I haven't had to face those types of issues yet. I know my wife can see some of them coming but whenever she brings them up I just say let's just take it one step at a time. My wife and obviously yours feels a little threatened by the POJA because they don't trust us to do what is in their best interests yet and see themselves being prevented from enjoying themselves with their independant behaviours. Just one step at a time.

It's a plus that she is communicating with you at least.

I see a lot of hurt & bitterness in her email. I think you just need to let it wash over you. Just make sure you keep in touch with Harley. Maybe even share that email with him. Make him earn his money <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just be patient. Not even God knows what she's thinking (Joke) so I'm sure she is just confused and torn.

My friend you read me exactly on the SH thing. I have already faxed it to him.

Also, you are right there is a lot of hurt and bitterness in her email. I guess what really hurts the worst is I did not do anything (she will admit this) that is considered terrible. Just I did not meet conversation needs (mainly because I was busy with our kids which she supported) and the honesty thing where I tried to keep her from feeling down about stuff. She was already on AD's and I just did not want to bother her with bad stuff from work or whatever. Nothing horrible, just did not want to bother her or burden her with it.

I am also starting to wonder if her attitude has something to do with breaking NC. I hope I am wrong and I can't see her going through all this and faking it, because she is so unnerved after sessions.

It's possible - only you can answer that. From what you have posted though it seems to me that she is threatened by the thought of having to be accountable and also having to change. As I said, Harley hit a nerve and she is just reacting to it. Hopefully in time she will know he is right - her reaction indicates to me she knows he is right and is not ready to face the consequences of that yet. She is also pointing out things you will have to give up as well in an effort to get you to abandon SH as well. She's just reacting to all that I am sure.

Good morning everyone,

Yesterday evening as you can imagine was rough after seeing her email to me. I carried the kids to church and she really did not want to come. The kids asked her to come also.

When I got home she was in disengage with me. Fine and happy with the kids, but once they went to bed, she shutdown. We watched Lost on TV and as soon as that was over, we went upstairs to go to bed. When I got out of the shower she was in the other bedroom.

I know I should not have and I probably messed up, but I went in the other room to ask her what she was doing. She said she just wanted to sleep and did not want to stay awake at night feeling guilty for not providing affection etc...

The good news is she told me she did complete her assignmet for SH but the bad news is she would not and could not do EN's 1) and 2). I told her I understood and thanked her. She also told me that SH asked her if she liked SF, she seemed offended and said of course, loves it, but just refuses to "do it" without feelings of intimacy. I know at times because prior to this, we both had admitted to one another that we have had SF only for the benefit for the other one when we really did not feel like it. It is like she has totally changed.


Because of above, I then asked her what was there anything she wanted to tell me that she has not. I wanted to give her one more chance to tell me if the affair resulted in sex and she just did not tell me. She got frustrated and told me no. I told her I did not understand why she wanted to stay in another room and treat me like some stranger. She basically got mad and came into the bedroom. She tossed and turned early on and said her chest hurt, etc... That was our evening.

Woke up this morning and as I left she is just laying in bed gazing out the window looking at nothing in particular.

I hope this is just the roller coaster ride everyone talks about. Too me, especially if you read her email, she seems to be getting further away.

I really do not know her at the moment. It is like she is a different person. Even our kids say the same thing.

I guess I should take it as a possitve that she did her"homework" for SH even though she said she did not like him anymore.

Can anyone speak with experiance to what ground I am walking on at the moment. Is this recovery, still withdrawel, what do you call it? Progress?

Well, the only good thing about the withdrawl in my wife's case was that while she was angry and spitting nails at me most of the time, she was at least admitting to me what was on her mind. She was cold and distant and angry, which sounds a lot like your wife.

And I didn't even consider SF during that time...the first week after she came home, we both slept on couches in the living room. I'll never forget laying there at night listening to her cry herself to sleep, then hoping to manage an hour or two of sleep myself.

After that, we rearranged the house so that she had a bedroom to herself all the way upstairs, and I had one all the way downstairs. She was insistent that we do this, since she 'felt uncomfortable' since she slept in a T shirt and undergarments...and didn't feel right about me being in the room with her like that. I didn't understand, but didn't fight the issue that much either.

That lasted a few weeks...and then finally one night when she was complaining about her back hurting, I gave her a massage that lead to us starting SF...but she couldn't do it because she felt like she was betraying OM (whom she'd never met in person...go figure). The following nite was when she decided to really begin working on things with me...and we resumed sleeping together ever since.

So I know she pined for OM, but since we did the in house seperation thing, there wasn't any kind of contact at all at nite or in the morning.

During this time, we talked...a lot. We talked about all that was wrong in the marriage, talked about what she would need to do in order for her to live on her own. We didn't talk about the A itself that much, just more on what our next steps were going to be. She was pretty insistent that she find out what it was like on her own...and then started telling me that she hadn't made up her mind if she was going to choose me or OM. It was after one of those discussions, followed by her deciding to get an apartment with a year lease for our 'seperation' that I finally decided I wasn't going to seperate with her for a year. I told her if that's what she wanted, to file for a divorce, because I wasn't going to live for a year to wait and see if she was going to choose me or not.

It was actually that discussion that triggered her to realize that she was going to lose me if she didn't wake up.

In your case friend, I would almost consider doing some '180' type stuff...pull back from her some. Let her start worrying about what YOU are feeling for a change. I did some of this as well...started to withdrawl from my wife and 'give her space'...it scared the heck out of her. Perhaps...just perhaps, that might start to get her to realize what she's risking here. She SAYS she wants a D...but has she truly given it ANY thought? What she would do, where she would live, how she would pay the bills? My wife didn't think about it until after d-day...and began to realize what a challenge she faced.

Hang in there man.

Thanks Owl. I also just got an email from her that is pretty telling. Hopefully she is being truthful in it.



Below is my response to her


Thoughts anyone?

OK...so have you asked her EXACTLY which 'rules and regulations' she can't live with? My wife spouted some stuff like this...but could never come up with specifics that I couldn't either make her see were normal marriage boundaries that ANY couple would have, or were just completely fantasy stuff that were ludicrous. Ask her to tell you exactly what it is she feels she can't live with...what rules are you offering that are so unreasonable. (nice side note to this...if she spouts some garbage about boundaries within the relationship, like communicating with other guys, ask her if she thought OM would have wanted her to do that while she was with him).

Tell her you're not expecting her to suddenly feel passionate for you again. But...that if she quits constantly putting up the anger and everything else as barriers against you, that she CAN and WILL (feel free to quote my case if you like) develop those feelings again for you...tell her that the truth is that she never lost those feelings for you, but that she's completely buried them in her emotional rush to be with OM. It IS standard, normal WS stuff that ALL WS's go through. She might want to think that her case is special...but, it's not.

And no where does it say that the two of you have to spend every free moment doing something together. That's a completely foolish concept. What you're asking for her to do is to MAKE THE EFFORT to spend some kind of REAL time with you...not time spent fighting and arguing and talking about what's going on. And that any free time that two of you do spend apart shouldn't be involved in something that's just going to set the marriage up for failure (like going out alone to bars, etc...). In other words, you're asking her to behave like a WIFE...NOT a prisoner, NOT a single person, but like someone who has made a commitment to another person. If she wants to do somethings on her own...great! But don't let them be things that are determinental to your marriage.

Wrap it up with the fact that you're not expecting her to 'flip a switch' and suddenly feel different. What you're asking her to do is to quit fighting everything that you're asking, start TALKING with you, start to do her part in fixing what's wrong with your marriage, and to see THEN if the feelings come back.

She goes on and on about rules and regulations...does she truly expect to live in a situation where there are none at all? If she were with OM, there'd be rules. Even if she were single living on her own, there are still society's rules she has to live by. So what are her SPECIFIC rules that she hates...and what can you two negotiate to a resolution on that ISN'T determintal to rebuilding your marriage?

Personally, this note is the same as the last. She says she's letting go of the anger...then goes on to continue blaming you for all that's wrong in her life. She needs to grow up. Sorry...just how that struck me.

That comment she made about 'no intention of quitting anything again because you don't like it' is pretty telling. But, turn it back on her...say you had an affair with a news lady who covered all of the racing events...how would she feel knowing that you were going to be seeing this lady at every race...while you were there without your wife?

Tell her that you don't mind her hobby...you think her interest in this stuff is great. BUT...if she wants to keep doing it, SHE NEEDS to find a way to do it that won't put her in contact AT ALL with OM...and in a way that won't put your marriage at risk of doing this again. JUST AS SHE WOULD EXPECT OF YOU IF THE SITUATION WERE REVERSED!!!

Owl is pretty right here.

Have you read "Love must be tough" by James Dobson? Basically, like owl said you pull back a bit to get her wondering.

Presumably the rules she doesn't like are let me guess.. POJA, Policy of Undivided Attention? How am I doing so far.

I agree with not looking around the corner. I know for sure, there is some conflict on the way when we get to some lessons in the HNHN Audio series and LB series. But I don't need to fight those battles now. And at the moment I am building up Love Bank deposits at a ferocious rate so when we do get there we should be in pretty good shape.

It might be a good idea to pull back a bit and give her some space. Check out Love must be Tough. She is probably feeling trapped and thinking "is this all there is for the rest of my life?"

Hang in there my friend.

Owl and bigkahuna

I aggree with everything you have said. I think I do need to pull back and give her the "space" she needs but how do I do that and try to do what SH wants me to do and that is meet her EN's for the next 2 weeks until we talk to him again.

BK you are very right. POJA is definately what set her off. We never really got into it, but it was discussed somewhat and I think our next sessoin will cover it and then some.

Look at the response she just sent me a few minutes ago.


I really don't know what to do. Pull back, try to meet needs, a combo and if I do a combo how do you do that? Is that even possible.

I am just getting so confused. She is finally talking, albiet via email, and I don't know if this is a good thing or not.

I am scared at this point. BobPure asked me what would I do if I had no fear. At this point, I would say I am frozen in fear on don't know what I would do.

I want to tell her that don't she realize all the physical ailments she is talking about is a result of her rebellion and refusal to forgive me, etc...

She went and made peace with someone a month ago that she was furious with and said she felt so much better. Why must she hang on to what she has a problem with me about.

I still say the affair is the issue, she is totally blind to that. It is like it is just a side issue. She calls it the sympton, not the problem. I see it as the problem and what we are going through now as the symptom.

I could be totally off base, but that is the way I see it. We HAD what seemed like a good marriage. Plenty of Affection, SF, we talked when we could, we both aggreed the our boys were important and needed to pursue what they were pursuing, and this chapter or season was a brief season and we would have plenty of time for ourselves in a couple of years.

I THOUGHT we were both on the same page. Obviously I have regrets. Many regrets. I know I took our relationship for granted and she did also, but is that a reason to throw it all away.

It is just crazy that she does not see it so clearly. She is a smart women. Someone I admire and trusted totally. She is just not the same women.

It feels like I am living some kind of strange sci-fi life at the moment were things just changed overnight.

Pulling back is not incompatible with Plan A.

As James Dobson tells it, the tighter you hang onto someone, the more they want to get away and fight. She is feeling trapped. She thinks she wants out.

Why don't you try saying/emailing something like this...

I want you to know I love you and am very unhappy seeing you suffer at the moment. I want our marriage to work and be a good and happy one like God intended. I am happy to give you the freedom you want if it will make you happy. If you are so unhappy sleeping in the same bed as me at the moment, why don't you use the bed in the spare room. I am happy to give you some space. I just want you to be happy.

I don't know - something like that. Keep her under your roof so you can meet some EN's but give her some space - get her wondering about what you're thinking. Get her questioning if she wants you or not - at the moment you are holding on tight to her - she feels trapped - letting go a little puts the ball back in her court - she will think "maybe he doesn't want me any more?" Read Love must be tough. It might help.

Well, I agree with her in ONE respect...the affair IS a symptom of a much bigger problem.

I'm not a doctor (hey Lemonman!!!), but I do know a little bit. Sometimes, the only way to treat an illness is to treat the symptoms. And sometimes, you have to treat both the illness and the symptoms...or the patient dies before the treatment for the illness can be effective.

If your daughter has a high fever due to strep-throat, do you JUST give her antibiotics to treat the strep? After all, the fever is just a symptom...the cause is the strep. BUT...fail to treat the fever and she'll die from brain damage.

Compare this to your situation. Right now, there ARE some serious issues between you and your wife that LEAD to the symptom of the affair. And left untreated, these will kill your marriage. BUT...you cannot just work on those issues while the marriage is dying from the affair...which is a symptom of the problems in your marriage?

Get the picture?

Paraphrase that into your own words and send it back to her...I'd love to see her response to that!

I had the EXACT same conversation with my wife when we first started MC while she was still in withdrawl. The MC sat there in shock at the analogy, and my wife just shut up on that subject for a while.

Mistaken post from a cached page on my phone. Soooooo sorry guys.

hey waiting - that mobile - email gateway sucks........

Hey guys. I just edited the post prior to BK. Sorry about that. It must have been cached in my phone and when I went on the net this evening it reposted, albiet incorrectly again.

I won't do that again.

Owl and BK I think I will pull back some more. I have kinda slipped back into the slightly needy I guess.

One strange thing has happened. Tonight when I came home she seems to be in a great mood. I asked my 2 DS's how she was when she picked them up from school. She remarked to them that she had a great day. I have not heard those words in weeks or even months from her. That was shortly after she sent me the emails I pasted in previous post.

Hum??? Makes you wonder. I am also going to order the Dobson book. BK I am listening to the sermon also.

Thanks for all your support. I have needed it. I wish I could do the same for you guys.

Slightly Needy won't get the job done. Hold onto your dignity & self respect at all costs.

Glad to hear you are getting the book & listening. My wife was in tears at church for a few weeks - she had just come home and whammo she got the Warfare - Strongholds one and then the next week she got slammed on repentance. It was all good and it really, really helped her as a Christian coming to terms and dealing with what she had done. Then I discovered MB and it has been all moving along nicely from there.

We are living in a rented property at the moment with no computers or internet. I come home to work and post here. It was our next door neighbour who was the OM and even before MB we knew we had to move and establish NC. It's just so basic and fundamental to recovery.

We have had some ups and downs - she is in the "What the h3ll was I thinking" and "How could I be so stupid" phase right now and still has some troubles with her conscience. She has good and bad days - more good than bad these days. It's all good.

I also find that we can have a discussion about something contraversial that may have been eating me up a bit and it's like a load comes off and I stop worrying anymore about it - like your wife today. It probably felt good for her to get some stuff off her chest hence the good day.

I also find my self still thinking about her affair but rarely giving the maggot next door much thought anymore while a few weeks ago I was thinking about him a lot and was sorely tempted to engage him in some counselling with a baseball bat. (only joking)

Don't be so needy. Give her some space. Ensure you are 100% there is N/C. Keep it going with Harley. These will bear fruit and give you the result you want. Above all, pray and believe God.

oh... and support is what we are ALL her for. Personally, I have revealed stuff here in this thread that I would be very uncomfortable about my wife knowing I had told others. But we all need support from others at different times and I do get a lot of help from others here.

Thanks BigK,

I have said stuff on here I would not have said anywhere else either, other than maybe SH.

Regarding the 100% sure of NC, I am doing what I can on that front.

I noticed something this morning. She was actually up and out of bed before me and fairly chipper. I also noticed she is wearing her hair long and curley the last 3 days. The significance of that is she started straightening a few months ago. It looked nice but I really thought she looked better curley. Anyway, on our EN q's under attractive spouse I said one of the things I liked about her was her Long Curly hair.

After the session this week with SH she went long and curly. Did it again this morning. Attractive spouse was not in my top 4, but I think she may be trying to do an EN. It did not occur to me until yesterday and this morning after her shower that is what she did again. Hum?

Also, Meldody and BK and others, it is really comforting to hear others that have been successful. Thanks very much.

Today I told my mom what was going on. I just was not ready to do so. My mom is real emotional and I just did not want to break it to her.

Turns out it was a relief for her. She knew something was up by my wifes behavior and my avoidance of certian things.

My wife was very curious about what we talked about. She supported me going to my mom but I could tell she really was curious as to what I said and how I presented it.

I am not sure what the tempature is at home, so we will see this weekend.

WOL

Hey waiting - you're a champion. Great news all round from what you say here. God Bless you.

We spent the whole day apart. She shopped all day with her mom, I worked and went by my Moms as earlier mentioned. I picked up my oldest DS from Baseball lessons and she went to pick my oldest DS friend and we kinda had a double date with them tonight. She seemed ok, almost normal, happy etc... then we came home. She was again very curious about my conversation with my Mom.

I was kinda vague but told her I told Mom everything. She then wanted to be sure she knew because she did not want to get blindsided by her. I told her I did not think she had to worry about anything.

Since that conversation she has pretty much shutdown and lurked on the web about some horse show going on tonight. Now she is napping.

I guess this is all to be expected. I will be gone all day with my oldest DS hunting while she is shopping with her Mom and my youngest DS tommorow.

She should be feeling a lot less smothered now because I am not going to be able to spend much time with her at all this weekend.

We will see how it goes. Hoping NC is still in place and she is trying to meet some needs and realizes I am trying to meet some of hers.

Cool. You've got her doing some guessing now. You aren't hanging on so tight and she doesn't feel so trapped. It's also good that she cares about what you told your mom. Just hang in there and do what SH says.

Oldest DS and I went hunting all day Saturday and came in after dark. She seemed ok, and Sunday she seemed fine at church. Both DS's and I went to a baseball clinic after church while my wife went shopping for Thanksgiving stuff. She seems fairly talkative and doesn't seem to be all down and out like she has been.

I am continuing to pray for change and of course I need to change as well. I have to write out a plan per SH about how I am going to meet her top 4 needs.

Still no physical contact or love talk. I told her yesterday before I left to go hunting that I loved her. Maybe I should not have done so, but I still feel occasionally I should tell her.

We will see how the evening goes.

Thanks all.

Is your wife willing to spend any time at all doing fun things just with you? It seems to me like you are kind of living separate lives. Has it always been that way?

believer unfortunately you are correct. She is really not willing to do much of anything and yes we have lived separate lives. She will her horse show friends and life and me with the kids and their sports. I really do not do anything for myself. In fact Saturday with my DS hunting was for him. I did not even carry a gun to the woods. I was there to teach him and provide him an opportunity to hunt.

When we go out to eat on Friday or Saturday it seems we double date with our oldest DS and his friend.

In fact I found out yesterday that some friends of ours asked us to go out with them and she did not want to go. So we went with our 15 yr old and his friend instead.

It is almost like she wants to avoid interaction in town.

It has not always been that way. Leading separate lives. We used to do almost everything together until about 4 yrs ago. She claimed I was smothering her, (reality she was in withdrawel from EA) so through MC (not the Harleys) I learned to let her have "space". The only thing that did over time was to move us farther apart.

Sorry to hear that. I suggest you try inviting her out a couple times a week. If she declines, go by yourself.

Ouch.

That is something that will have to change. You will have to do some family commitment stuff as well as recreational companionship. The current situation is more like independent behaviour. Is FC one of her EN's?

believer

I have asked her out before but she really does not seem to want to do anything. I think she is afraid of conversation. She says we don't know how to talk about stuff. Says we only talk about the kids. Well heck, that is a big part of our life. She says she fears what will we have to talk about when we don't have the kids to talk about.

Conversation is her #1 need and obviously some one on one time to just talk, not about the marriage, but just talk about stuff is needed.

Her top 5 needs are

1 Conversation
2 Honesty and Openness
3 Affection
4 Sex
5 Family Commitment

SH wants us to work on top 4 until next appointment. 3 and 4 is not happening at the moment. For one thing, I am trying to 180 as best I can but still show her I am there for her. She doesn't want to talk when it is just us. So I am left with H&O and FC. I have always done FC, in fact she says no problem there and HO is fine to except I tend to keep the bad stuff from her. Not anymore, but prior to this issue.

bighahuna

I aggree it has to change. I am more than willing but as you can see from above it is hard. She says she likes to be by herself and have down time and does not have a problem with that, but I really don't think that is the case. I mean someone who has Conversation as there #1 need would not seem like the kind of person that wants to be by herself. Her phone calls to the OM would indicate otherwise. She also gets tons of phone calls from her mom and sister.

I think she is just afraid of spending time with me. For what reason I could not tell you. It has never been a problem before and in fact looking back on it she was starved for time together. I remember her telling me she feels like we are "2 ships passing in the night". Maybe it is a phase and just part of the fog.

Oh yea, btw I forgot to mention something.

I threw my back out hunting Saturday. When I came home my wife offered to bring me supper in my chair and did so and keep asking was there anything she could do for me.

Then this morning she actually snuggle close to me. Asked me if I was cold and I said a little and she snuggled close so I could hold her. It did not last long because the alarm went off to wake the kids. When I came back I did not push it. I just rolled over and she snuggle close to me and put her arm around me.

I could tell she was trying and it did not feel comfortable for her but she did. We are now 9 weeks post D-day. She has not offered any affection for about 7 weeks. I was shocked. I did not comment, did not say anything and was not clingy. Hopefully this will continue.

Update:

My WW showed up at worked this morning seemed in a great mood. I was shocked. Anyway, after about 2 hours she got a phone call from our SIL, then my Mom. My mom wanted to talk to her before Thanksgiving and SIL was worried the holiday would be too stressful. SIL also asked if my WW was really giving it 100%.

My wife was really torn up over the phone calls. Cried and Cried. Told SIL she was doing all the rules, regulations, etc... but just did not know how much more she could take.

Poor her. Forget what I am going through. Anyway, it put a damper on our usuall Monday lunch, but at least she is thinking.

She has left the office for her normal hour to hour and halp a day, of not knowing where she is or what she is doing. I am playing it cool as to not "smother her" but I truely wonder what she is up to this time of day. She usually says she is at her moms or at her moms work place. Both have computers so I have thought of contact being made there via computer or her taking some real estate course online at about 2pm each day. Who nows. All I know is I will keep trying.

We go to our regular MC tommorow.

Hiya waiting. Some positive signs there I think. I can see that it is driving you crazy. I also think the SIL and MIL need to not be nailing her about your relationship - that just makes her feel pressured. Is that 9 weeks of NC? Man she is probably still in withdrawal!

You have grown apart over the years so she feels you have nothing to talk about and when you do talk it is Relationship talk? The 15 hours a week can be excruciating for a while. Hang in there. I really don't know what else to say.

BK

I think so too on the signs and it does make one nuts at times. I don't think the SIL and MIL (my mom) were nailing her. In fact they were trying to encourage her, but just the conversation was tough for her to handle. Today was the 1st day my Mom had talked to her since I told my Mom.

My mom just told her she would help with the kids, do anything to help us out, etc...... My SIL did ask her was she giving it 100%. Maybe that was a little direct, but she has not said much to her since d-day about it. They have talked alot, but avoided the subject.

We are 9 weeks post d-day and I am not experianced enough to know if withdrawel is still occuring.

One thing that is hurting our chances is I believe my MIL and FIL and other SIL (SIL did the same thing to her spouse 2 yrs ago) are not encouraging her to work things out. I believe my wife has painted the rewritten history thing to them so they think I am the overprotective, smothering husband that is jelous of her time with other males.

They don't know the big picture of her 2 EA and 1 EA/PA. They discount heavily her 1st EA as being really nothing. They know nothing of her 2nd EA so this most recent one is the only real deal they acknowledge. It is almost justified in their mind for how I have made her soooo unhappy all these years. They have bought the foggy story completely.

It is funny before, when she had her 1st EA they were all about doing whatever. She packed her bags and carried them to her moms house and my FIL advice was for her to get her butt home to her husband and work it out. Times have oh so changed.

Just hang in there. Do the stuff SH suggests. Keep in contact with him.

I can see the recreational companionship thing is going to be a huge problem to overcome for you. At some point she has to acknowledge that you both need to spend this time together especially as she seems to have a weakness in that area of developing inappropriate friendships with other males.

I know I will have some upcoming trouble in that area too - Lesson 4 next week SF, Lesson 5 conversation, Lesson 6 Rec Comp. 3 weeks till fireworks!

But at least we are depositing a lot of love units for now and it is our 23rd Wedding anniversary on 11/27 - we are going away for the weekend.

I know the progress you are making is a lot slower than you want - it was for me too but in reality mine was amazingly fast given the "typical" experiences on this board. I have been VERY VERY lucky and blessed by God. I still can't believe the speed of the turn around and the willingness of my wife to work and make things right. Just blows me away. It doesn't take long to have the feelings of love return. She still has her moments but we are on the up & up. Just hang in there, pray, believe.

ome tonight and another time waiting to blow up. My wife and son are Christmas decorating nuts. Really it is pretty and all, but nuts. Way overdone but always a family tradition of doing it up before Thanksgiving for all to see on Thanksgiving.

Anyway, I got the word from wife that tonight was the night. When I got home she was in an ill mood and the kids did not like the way she was acting either. We went through supper and about 30 minutes of decorating and she went upstairs. I could tell something was eating at her so I asked her if there is anything she wants to tell me. A problem with the kids, me anything. She goes into the normal dance of nothing is wrong she is just tired. NOT true usually. I asked her again and after about 4 times she finally admits she is not in the mood to decorate but she has too.

Then the conversation went to "look my feelings haven't changed, I am following all the rules, etc.. etc.. etc.."

I think I now know what is bothering her. She is bent out of shape over Christmas because of what we are going through.

Anyway, I tried very hard not to love bust.

My question is this. When I sense something is wrong or she is moody about something, should I just ignore it and do the 180?

Thing is she isn't following the rules - she isn't meeting your EN's and she isn't letting you meet hers. How can she expect her feelings to change if she wn't do that? She will have to "prime the pump" to get some love happening between you. She can't just drift along and at the end of it say "I did my best but it didn't work" Some effort has to be made on both sides.

What effort, EXACTLY, has she put into this? None.

She's 'following all the rules'...ask her exactly which rules is that she's following? What, EXACTLY, is wearing her down soooo much? And talk to her about it. The reality is that SHE is wearing herself down...she's expecting this to all just go away if she hides her head in the sand long enough. She's hoping that you'll give up and stop trying.

Gently call her out on it. Our first MC made the comment "You can't build a house without first making the CHOICE to build a house. It won't suddenly just appear one day. You have to CHOOSE to work on building the house...that's the first step in ANYTHING." Your wife is just lying around going 'poor me'...she's not CHOSEN to do anything yet. Could be withdrawl...I don't know for sure.

I'd try talking with her about it directly. She's so hung up on this 'rules' thing...what rules???? Make her spell out EXACTLY what's got her so unhappy...and don't accept the "I don't want to try". Ask her for specific actions or things that are making her unhappy right now...NOT back during or pre-affair. RIGHT NOW.

And then see what can be done to either make her see that it's all BS, or what needs to be done to fix the problem.

Thanks Owl,

I will try to address them as best I can. Here goes. Oh BTW I will gently bring that up to her also.


Rules of not going to horse shows at the moment. That is were OM is, she says it is over and she has no feelings for OM but does not see that I should have a problem with her going to something she really really enjoys doing, since she is not going to have contact with OM. She is also bitter that I am still hunting or golfing or whatever IE her comments to me about hunting and her not wanting to hunt. Keep in mind that she feels no threat from those activities I enjoy. And by the way, I don't do much of anything other than coach our sons baseball, which to me is Family Commitment.

Also, I told her I did not think it was a good idea for her to be talking to other male friends that she knows from horse shows (I don't even know most of them). Not just talking occasionally but for 20 and 30 minutes at a time sometimes several calls a day. I said that needed to go IMO especially since that is how 2 of her EA's started. Conversation is her #1 EN therefore she is weaker there IMO.

Also she believes that what Steve Harley and our MC are asking her to do are rules. IE meeting my EN's, forgiveness, etc...


I do believe that she wishes I would give up. She says she is so tired of being tired and her chest hurting, headaches, hair falling out, flaking eye lids. I see all those issues as stress she could avoid if she only would.


That is the key. When I do talk to her about our relationship she usually gets frustrated and shutsdown.

She does not see the affair as an issue. Heck I don't even bring it up and if I even hint something about it she gets angry and goes off by saying something like, "See I know you will never let it die, You are going to hold it over my head forever".

She maintains that is over and the affair as nothing to do with why her feelings for me are gone. She does not want to "fake it" by making herself meet my EN.


I am doing the best I can to meet her needs but it is a hard thing to do when she really does not want me to and I am trying to do a 180 in my Plan A.

Thanks for the input.

And when she is asked to do something, it is up to her to decide whether or not to do it. She is a big girl, with big girl car keys and money in her purse and can decide her own actions. If she decides to do those things, then she should take ownership of them....like a big girl.

Sorry, but it really irks me that so many women act like hapless idiots who are the mercy of someone else. She is at the mercy of NO ONE. The door is wide damn open. If you AGREE to do something, then be accountable. Take accountability for your choices, for God's sake.

Remind her that no one here has the power to make her do anything, waiting. She is doing this all by CHOICE. That will put the accountability right back in her lap.

Well, as far as her not liking the fact that she can't go to the horse shows...tell her that it's a direct result of her 2 EA's and PA...it's a direct result of HER choices. If she hadn't made the bad decisions that she had, that this wouldn't be an issue.

As far as being asked to do anything to rebuild the marriage...again...DIRECT results of HER bad choices...not yours. Why is she angry at the results of HER decisions here?

ML is right...if she doesn't like the 'rules'...then gently remind her that the other option is always there...move out now. Just remember...there are consequences for THOSE choices too. ANY choice we make has consequences we have to be prepared to accept....just part of being an adult. I had pretty much the same discussion with my wife while she was still foggy/in withdrawl. I told her this gently and kindly, but firmly as well.

I'd ask her..."So you just expect for me to feel free with you going to the shows to potentially start ANOTHER affair (especially since so damn little has been done to help our marriage recover from the last ones you've had)? You feel that it is totally OK for you to continue doing what you've done, and that the kids and I should just sit here and accept that without any hurt or upset?" ******...ask her what she REALLY expects to happen now that she's had her affairs.

And you know what...don't let her browbeat you into the not discussing the affair. My wife tried the same tactic...and I caved into it somewhat myself. Whenever she brings it up, let her know that it was HER choice to do...and you'll gladly drop the subject...once she finally starts ACTIVELY trying to fix the problems that came out of her bad choices.

I made it clear to my wife that I wasn't going to just let it drop...but at the same time, if we were able to heal from what she did, I would NOT be holding it over her head for the rest of her life. And guess what...it NEVER comes up when we're arguing over something...it's NOT a lever I use to make her feel bad or give in to what I want.

Give this some thought...maybe this will help.

I have started doing that very recently. She is bad about hearing something different that what I say. For example, when I asked her if the air needed clearing because she acted like she was upset with something. When all was said and done, she started fussing that she was sorry she could not act?? like I wanted her too. My gosh, I just was wondering if she needed to clear the air. I was not trying to do anything to her other than that.

Anyway, it is rather freeing to turn it back on her like you said.

I mean if I could make her do something, I would have made her get over this much quicker.

Owl ,

All I can say is right on. I have to have more courage to do what you are saying. I am getting there but I have to do it.

We are off to MC in a few minutes.

Mel and Owl,

I just got in from our MC session and I can see you guys have been busy with HTW. That story is so bad compared to mine. I really feel for him.

I just wanted to check in and let ya'll (a little GA speak <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) know that the session went pretty good, the MC talked to us separately and really focus on my wifes relationship with God and until she quits running from God and softens her hard heart toward her relationship with him, ours is not going to be any better.

I do aggree with this. I think if she would get her vertical relationship right then all her horizontal relatoinship, me included can be worked on. Not that it will happen without any work on her part, but she is so resistent to God at the moment she has to come around to him.

She actually seemed to be in a pretty good mood coming back from MC. I plan on working a little late tonight, part of my 180 and I will see how that goes.

Thanks for all your guys input. BK you have been great also, in fact I wish I could rememeber everyones contribution.

Thanks much all.

Glad to hear the session went well.

The fact she is running from God is an indication she is feeling guilt at least.

That message on repentance I pointed you to is a great one. Really had a huge reaction in my wife.

God Bless. Hang in there.

I like the advice Mel and Owl have been giving you.

My wife too was 'running from God' when she had her A, and while she was still unrepentent and in withdrawl.

I'll never forget the day that she had IC and she decided to go shopping here in the area where I work until I finished up work. I called her while I was walking over to the Christian store she was in (and it surprised me that she was there)...and she quoted to me a sign she found there...it was apparently a saying written by Confuscios but they still had it at that store...the saying read "No matter where you go, always go there with all of your heart".

When I got there, she was in tears, and I was soo worried it was some kind of setback. She looked me in the eyes and told me "That's why I couldn't go be with OM...because I COULDN'T go there with all of my heart. But I AM able to stay HERE with all of my heart.".

She started picking up some good Christian books that helped her recover from the A as well...and that was one of the best signs I had that she really HAD ended the EA and made her choice to stay.

You'll get there my friend...just hang in there and keep praying. Remember...pray for God's will to be done here, not your own or anyone else's. He's the one with the best plan for all of you anyway.

I know that is the real true problem. It is really pathetic how Satan is so successful with the same old tired trap to attack people and marriages with, but I guess he keeps using it because it works.

Distraction from God through whatever, then when your defenses are down and you are your weakest, the ingrediants for an EA begins. I know that is what happened to my wife.

She started focussing on other stuff and before she and I knew it, wham.

I am praying God's will be done. At times I am scared praying that because I want to pray for my wife back, but I realize now that I really don't want my wife back.

The wife I had is not were I want to go. I want something much greater. I am sure my wife deep down wants something better than me.

I want to have want God wants. I know ultimately that is for our marriage to be newly created. She better than before and me also.

I just know that God will not force himself on others and my wife has a free will choice to decide to follow him or rebel which she is doing now.

All in all, I see God at work. I noticed her listening to the Christian radio station yesterday. Mind you she is not doing it all the time, but at least she is tuning in.

I really look forward to the day that she starts opening her bible and reading. I am not sure about her pray life at the moment because I am not around all the time and don't know what she does in private, but I suspect it is rather weak right now.

Last night there was no affection from her and none this morning, so that is part of the roller coaster ride.

I also think she is still in the fog and probably thinking about the OM some. Also, the horse show season is over now and she doesn't have to pine away at what she is missing. Each weekend she would pull up the web and login to live broadcast to see who was winning.

Everything just moves so slow. God's timing I guess.

Thanks Owl. Your words have been very encouraging.

I am feeling so down tonight.

I came home and when I come in the house it is like a friend has come over. I work all day and I am so disappointed that there is no hug, or anything.

My oldest son has decorated like crazy for Christmas and my wife has been working on tomorrows get together most of the day. We were outside viewing his lights and I gave my wife a 1 armed hug and she basically was stiff.

I really miss the affection from my wife. I actually crave affection from her to the point that it is scaring me. What I mean is that just 2 days ago I was picking up my youngest son from some friends of ours and my wife was with me and our friends wife just gave me an innocent hug and it was so nice. Not in an affair kind of way (although I know that is how one can start) , but it just felt good to have someone touch me in a caring way.

I feel almost dirty even confessing that on this post and I have not dwelled on that hug, but I really need my wife to show affection and she is just not going there.

I am afraid if she finally does how I might react. Will I cry in gratitude, will I push away because she hugged and kissed someone else, will it even matter.

I am sorry if what I confessed offends anyone, I really do not intend that to take place, but I really do miss her affection so much.

My 2 sons are pretty affectionate and they are very hugging at the moment. They sense I need it. Heck even my dog (yellow lab) seems to sense it. Why can't my wife?

She cried and cried to our MC yesterday that she feels guilty because she does not have the kind of feeling she should have for her husband. I just don't understand why she can't see that nothing is going to happen until she tries.

I feel like I am drowning at times in a sea of sorrow.

´HI!

Has it ever occourd to you that her lacking feelings towords you

Might be for real? And you trying to force her to feel something she dosent want..

Ps try not to be so controling all the time

M33

Thanks for your input but I do not feel she just suddenly lost her feelings toward me. I fully believe it is the fog of withdrawel and the post d-day feelings she is experiancing. Also, I have a question and it is sincere. What about what I posted makes you think I am being controling. I am being sincere in my question. If you think so, please let me know because all I have done the last 10 weeks is try to hold our marriage together.

Hiya waiting. Had to go away yesterday. couldn't post.

My wife is still not reading her bible but I know she is open to God and is praying a lot. She also shows signs of being touched by God in church.

Just keep on doing what you are doing. Sure. Pray God's will is done but know for certain His will is not the disollution of your marriage. Your wife is a free being with a free will. God will not coerce her at all. She does at some point have to make a decision to move on and make your marriage work. When my wife came home and while in withdrawal she had no feelings for me at all. Even now there are days when she does not feel any love for me - but they are less & less. We are having our 23rd wedding anniversary this weekend and we are going away. She is really looking forward to that. Last night we had SF but then she lay awake all night thinking about the affair and having images flashing through her mind and she was fighting against them.

I really think we BS's still don't fully understand the power of these emotions in our WW's.

Keep in touch with SH. Do what he says. I just pray your wife makes the decision that will lead to recovery. The decision will come first. The feelings will come later as a consequence of that decision.

This weekend is the 3 month anniversary of D-Day and the 10th week of NC and recovery. My wife gave me SF 2 weeks after she came home to me - even though she definitely didn't feel anything for me. She did it as an act of her will to help her get over this thing. Maybe 4 weeks now she has said she loves me and she means it. The feelings are returning although can be transient. She still gets tortured a bit by the affair.

You can make it waiting. Just don't give up or give in. Don't be too clingy either.

Thanks BK. I look forward to that day. I am trying to not be too clingy. I just miss the affection terribly.

Today we had Thanksgiving at our house. We will be married 21 yrs on 12/15/2006 and this is our 20th Thanksgiving together and since year one we have had all of our family to our house. Over the years our crowd has grown from brothers and sisters, and In Laws and grandparents to include our children, grandchildren, friends. We have hosted as many as 35 at our home and the holiday has truly been the highlight holiday of the year for both my wife's and my family.

We look forward to it every year. This year it has been a dread for my wife. Her parents made the decision to no show . My wife's sister (that had an affair and left her husband) has not been in 2 years and my wife's brother and his 2nd wife have basically quit coming.

This year we had my brother, his wife, their 2 children and my mom. Our smallest crowd ever. A total of 9 people. I enjoyed it and so did our children but my wife was very down because her family would not come.

There are some excuses as to why they are not coming, but I believe they did not come because of me and the problems in our marriage. I believe my MIL and FIL are not being supportive to rebuilding our marriage. I am not sure how my wife described our problems when she confessed to her affair to them. I was not there.

The only reason I mention this is it makes our job to rebuild our marriage very difficult. Her Dad is very controlling and opinionated and her mother is very narcissistic .

I am praying God's will to be done, but I feel like I am walking through a desert with very little water.

I was very disappointed today. I found my wifes homework that Steve Harvey asked her to complete. Steve wanted each of us to work on a plan for how to meet the others top 4 EN's. Mine was affection, sf, rec. comp, and honesty/openness.

I was excited about this assignment in hopes that it would help her spark some feelings for me. I really have not noticed her doing anything we talked about. Today I found out why.

Basically she wrote down that affection and sf was absolutely nothing she could do without feelings for me. Under Rec. Comp she said she would watch sports on tv and go to our favorite college football home games. (season is over tommorow). That was it. She did not want to walk with me, excersize or ride in the car together to just ride around.

Under honestly/openness she said she would answer my questions the first time I ask her rather than stall and also tell me about her day.

Only 3 things she said she could do. My heart sunk.

Her needs are Conversation, Honesty/Openness, Affection and SF. Obviously I can't meet the last 2 and Conversation is difficult at best because she just disengages. I can't be much more honest.

I also saw yesterday that she pulled up and dating/relatoinship collum on MSN. It was more directed to singles and marriage. I want to ask her why, but I know that would be a disrepectful judgement LB so I want. It does though make me wonder what she is thinking.

I guess I should be happy she at least found 3 to write down.

waiting on love


Traditional wisdom on this board says that spouses should have very little secrecy between them and that there is a difference between privacy (closing the door when you use the bathroom) and secrecy (doing things your spouse doesn't know about). I think that reading your w's homework from Steve, unless she specifically handed it to you and said it was ok, steps over the line of respecting PRIVACY in your marriage. It wasn't a secret activity - you knew she had the assignment - and yet it was something she was probably instructed to do without you present for a very good reason. And, although I don't know this for a fact, I strongly suspect that Steve had a process in mind for revealing the information to each of you.

My suggestion to you would be that you respect your wife's privacy with regard to marriage counseling homework and allow the information to come to you through the process that Steve manages - after all, you're paying him good money for his professional services! Consider that you might be damaging your marriage by not allowing the information to be revealed to you in the context that it should be revealed in - ie. Steve might challenge some of your wife's answers and give her the opportunity to ask him questions and brainstorm some and the final result might not look the same as this brief glimpse. So, next time you find her homework, please consider this an area of marital privacy as opposed to secrecy (in which snooping is a valid, productive behavior).

I'm not trying to chastise you (well, maybe a little in the area of patience which is like the pot calling the kettle black) I'm just concerned that you're going to make the process harder on both of you than it all ready is and needs to be. Next time, don't look!


Mmm.. going down this train of thought is likely to lead you to some disrespectful judgements. I think it's a good idea not to ask her about it at this point, though you might mention it to Steve. I wouldn't put much more thought into it than that, if you're able, though. Look at it this way - regardless of how things should be or might be - your wife is telling you she's not certain your marriage will survive. I think it's pretty natural for her to be attracted to that type of topic (relationships after marriage) just because of what you guys are going through. I don't think it's any more than that or any larger sign (and, no, I don't think it's necessarily a very productive thing for her to do but it's probably about as irresistable to her as peeking at her answers when you know you shoudn't is to you.)

Your marital problems are obviously very much on her mind. She's uncertain. Women, especially, have a tendency to 'try things on emotionally' when we're weighing important decisions. That was my first thought when I read about the column. If it's that, then don't let it concern you greatly as those things tend to be part and parcel of a process of decision making and not particularly releveant to the decision that's made (or, in other words, neither decision will be made without it anyway so don't get too bent out of shape, ya know?)

I wish you the best of luck.

Mys

Mys

You brought up some points I had not thought of before. I wish I did not see what I did and I wish I did not read it. I guess I felt like a child that found his Christmas present and peaked and was disappointed when we found out what he was getting. Not only was the gift not what was expected but the guilt slipped in for doing something he shouldn't have.

I feel very bad about that. I do appreciate you candor though.

Also, your 2nd point about the website she was on brought me some perspective as well. I will try not to give it another thought.

I am just having a very difficult time. My tank is running dry while I am trying to fill up hers. I love my wife very much and it is just very difficult for me to understand what is going on in her mind.

I am doing my best to learn new behavior and change my thought process of how love develops and how it stays and grows.

waitingonlove


Well, now, don't beat yourself up about it too much. It is a pretty irresistable urge to peek when you're waiting on something - particularly something about which you have such high hopes. It's also very, very hard to be patient when you're in pain. Heck. I have a hard time being patient even when I'm NOT in pain.

Now you know; you can choose not to do it anymore.



Good.


I know you're having a very difficult time. I've never been a WW (in fact, I've not dealt with infidelity, thank goodness, I tend to post on EN's but was reading here and saw your post) but I imagine she's having a very difficult time too.

You're in the rough spot of waiting on her to make a decision about what she's going to do and she's in the rough spot of trying to figure out what she's going to do. To those of us on the sidelines and to you, the decision she has to make seems like a no brainer and it's very easy to loose patience with her for 'dithering' around. Right now, she's trying to cobble together whatever "data" she needs in order to make what is, in her mind, her best decision. That "data" will look very different than the "data" you might cobble together because there's a good chance that, as a woman, she tends to be more emotional/intuitive (a Feeler on the Myers Briggs test) than logical/sequential (a Thinker on the Myers Briggs test). Not all women are "feelers" but most of them are. Just like not all men are "thinkers" but most of them are. I'm a "feeler" with a capital, probably maxed out, F! My H is definitely a Thinker type - he's an engineer. It's pretty obvious when you sit us down to brainstorm solutions, too.

If I assume that you're opposite types according to the population norms, then you're seeing the decision from a completely different perspective than she is because you use different data to form your decisions than she does. Now, that doesn't mean that she can't come to the same decision that you have come to - just that when, or if, she does it will be through completely different channels and using completely different critera than you did.

My best suggestion to you is to let her collect the data that she needs in order to make her decision. Try to be accepting that she's going to see things and 'try things on' that are very different from the process you'd take or that you'd probably like her to take. Resist any urges you have to 'lead her' into your process because, again, the data you use is unlikely to bear significant weight on her primary decision making criteria (and, frankly, it's annoying when someone keeps throwing data at you like you're supposed to suddenly say "Aha! I see the light! I've been making decisions the wrong way this whole time!" (speaking about the process of being emotional/intuitive vs logical/sequential not the actual decisions here.))

Let Steve do his job. I'm certain he's very well versed in the different personality types and how they use different data to form decisions. Even if the things he's doing don't seem as though they might impact YOU greatly, that doesn't mean that they won't impact her in profound ways. Be mindful that the parts of the process that work BEST for you (ex. creating a plan) might be the parts of the process that work LEAST for her and vice versa. And, that's OK, because in the end it matters most where you end up (together, hopefully) and not the path that you needed to take to get there.

In summary, be kind to yourself. You're going through a lot. Be a participant (not the leader) in your marriage counseling and try to squelch your urge to 'fix it all.' This is a process. You've taken the right step in hiring an expert, let him drive the process. Practice patience and cultivate hope. If nothing else, if you learn all that, you can really say you've grown from the process regardless of the outcome, eh?


Say that with pride and mean it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

Wow Mys. What a great post. Thanks for that.

Hi Waiting. Hope you are having a nice weekend. Just finished reading 5 love languages by Gary Chapman. One of the chapters deals with meeting someone's needs who you have no feelings for. Might be worth you having a list. But in summary, it becomes a choice by that person to meet the need as an act of love in the first place with feelings following.

That post by Mys is very insightful.

All the best.

Hi BK

Weekend has been ok.

I read the 5 love languages several years ago, prior to first EA d-day. I did not get much from it but on the other hand I was not looking for anything either. I thought we had the perfect marriage. Silly me.

I will pull it off the shelf and look at it again from the BS side of things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did like both of Mys's post, especially the 2nd one to me.

Man, I must confess, I just am having a hard time without hardly any of my needs being meet. I bent over to give her a peck good bye tonight before we went to the big football game tonight. She stayed home because she is sick. Ear infection, etc... Anyway, you would have thought I was some stranger trying to kiss her. I wasn't anything romantic, more platonic if you know what I mean, but that has really stuck with me.

I guess it stuck with me because I remember prior to d-day and especially prior to this EA/PA we had a lot of passion when we kissed and sleep together. You needed a crow bar to pull us apart in the morning from cuddleing. Now there is nothing and it just baffles me.

I know I should not be looking for much at the moment but my mind has plenty of time to think about stuff like that.

I also it when I see a nice looking women that I wonder, hum, what would it be like to be free of all this and just move on. I really do not want to do that, but just dangles that temptation out there for me and it just torments me. Not that I am doing that or would even consider it at this point, but it is like it is a tempation that is just there to torment me. I feel just awful having the thoughts.

Then I think about her and the OM and what they did and it makes me sick. I wonder to myself, how could she do that to us. Me, the Kids and even herself. What was she thinking?

Once again, I am interjecting logic where there is none, but my mind just can't shake the thought process.

Has anyone had any luck shaking the thoughts I am speaking of. Thoughts of WS and OP and also the thoughts of the BS just saying cya and moving on.

I am really struggling supressing these thoughts. How do I win that mental battle?

Help please someone ....... ?????

waiting Im in the same boat as you. I have my good days & my bad days the only thing that has help me is the encouragement of people on this board ( thanks bigkahuna) & from my counsoler who keeps say Im doing the right things. I dont no how long I can hold out before I say cya & move on, I just want to make sure before I do that I did everything I could. Also I wonder if she is just trying to get me to give up & file for a D so she can blame me to feel better time will tell. I have just been trying to stay busy around the house to keep my mind off it. Good luck

Cliff

When is your next appt with SH? Hang in there mate. Have faith. Believe.

BK

I am trying my best to have Faith and Believe. Our next appointment is Thursday of this week.

Our progress was particularly shaken today IMO. I have been concerned about NC for quite sometime. Today she was gone for about 1 1/2 hours to carry our son to his friends house. Total trip would be only about 40 minutes tops. It concerned me that she may be calling the OM from pay phones with a calling card or even using a secret cell phone. Usually when she returns from trips like this she comes back rather melancholy and today was no difference. She was pretty much shutdown to me.

I decided rather than sit around and worry about it, to go ahead and ask her. I tried not to make a disrespectful judgement, but I guess it is hard to do. We got into a pretty heated conversation to say the least. I do believe her with what she said she was doing. The long and the short of it, we started talking about meeting each others needs this evening.

I told her I am trying desperately to meet hers but it is hard because A and SF are not something she wants presently. I also told her that I am trying to be available for conversation as much as possible and be honest and open with her.

She said she would not be able nor would she meet my need for A or SF without feelings for me. She said SH told her to go ahead and look at it like and event you did not really want to go to, but when you get there you wind up having fun. She did not like that analogy.
She said she was trying to meet my needs of Honesty/Openness and Recreational Comp. She pointed out that she watched football pretty much this whole weekend.

Her biggest hangup is she does not see any of this working for us. In fact she says I am the only one that believes this will work. She says she is tired of being analyzed, feeling bad, being depressed, etc.... but that she guesses she will keep doing this because she has too.

I took MelodyLane's advice, took a big gulp, and reminded her that I have not tied her up and made her do anything she did not want to do. I told her she was a Big and could decide for herself what she wanted to do, that I did appreciate what she had done to this point, but I was not making her do any of this. She said she had to keep everybody happy. I pressed her for who was she trying to keep happy. She said, Me, and our 2 sons. I told her she still had the choice but we all appreciated that she was still going to counseling.

She also said she knows she is not supposed to look around the corner, but she as going to mention it anyway. She said the POJA was something she could not abide by and she thought that was ridiculous. I told her I did not understand it completely and I was not going to try to explain it to her since I did not understand it and lets just wait until Steve H. discusses it with us.

She wanted to push the issue and discuss it. It basically came down to horse shows (the place where both A's occurred). I told her I have not taken horse shows off the list and I even told her I did not think is was something we needed to negotiate at this point. She said she knew the OM would be there and I would have a problem with that and she did not think seeing OM from a distance at an event would be a big issue and make the affair start again. I told her, there had been no "line in the sand" drawn by her for him to stay away. We discussed that for awhile and she asked me what I thought would do that.

I told her the only thing I could think of would be a NC letter written by her. She said she did not want to "feel" like she was being made to do that. I told her again I was not telling her to, but if she did I would be very grateful.

She insisted the A's are not our problem. I finally gave her what she had been looking for. I told her I did not make her have the affair, but I created an environment that was ripe for one taking place by not meeting her needs of conversation and honestly and openness and by making various LB's along the way.

Basically I am not sure where we are now. She obviously does not want to do MC with SH or our other MC. But at least she is still going. She sees no hope, says her heart is like granite toward me and does not want anything from me.

I just really don't know what to do other than keep trying. Please someone tell me that has recovered that my sitch is not out of reach. Obviously I cannot capture in a post an 1 hour conversation, but I am doing my best. Do we still have a chance. Are there any former couples that can see hope for us.

I really need something to hang on to. I am pouring everything I can into this. I am trying to learn to be a better husband and person. Will she be able to see this?

Hi waiting. If you want to see how bad it can get, have a look at some posts here. Some people don't make it but lots do. Have a look at "Surviving an Affair" by Harley. That one got pretty bad too.

Have you asked your son what his mom does when she takes him out? Have you done any snooping?

I hate to say it but I suspect she is either contacting OM or someone else. It sounds like the affair might be still going. I could be very wrong. Why is she so against a NC letter? Doesn't make sense.

I have to say that I suspect she is still in contact, waiting. Is there any way you could bug her car to pick up conversations? Or have a PI follow her? For someone this far from her last contact, she seems awfully withdrawn. What do you think, waiting?

Sigh......... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't think you can even use the word "suspect" here Mel....it is pretty clear.......I'd be happy to eat crow on this one also.....but sadly, doubt I will.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was thinking of suggesting a PI here too Mel. I agree. If she really has established NC, she should be coming around by now.

Thanks guys. I worry that NC has been broken but she swears that it hasn't. I have put a digital rec. in the car and also the house a few times and really did not discover anything except her singing country music in the car or talking to our dog. Of course I have not done it every day for an extended period of time.

I am not sure I have the money for a PI. She is for sure not seeing the OM from the A because he is about 4 hours away. Of course nothing would prohibit him from coming here and her meeting up with him but too many people know us here. Someone would have noticed I think. Maybe I am just gullable.

Is it possible she is just very stubborn? She is and always has been very stubborn.

Is it possible that her addiction to horse shows could be the issue like an alcholic to drinking?

Or could it be that she has held something back on the A, and not told me everything, like maybe they did have ?

Melody to be quite honest, I don't know what to think. My paranoid at the moment mind thinks should could be somehow, with a secret cell phone or calling card. I have a hard time believing that the phone call she made in my presence on 9/11/2005 would be enough to deter OM. I don't know him, but they were awfully addicted to talking to one another on the phone.

I was pretty ugly when I discovered A and exposed it to her. Said some ugly things to her and about him. Not that I didn't mean some of it, but I have regrets about somethings I said.

I just wonder could it just be taking her longer.
Also this is her 2nd A that I know of for sure, although I think she was either approaching or in a EA with her brothers friend in 2001, which would be a 3rd one, but she fully denies that one. She gives me the "we were just friends line".

So the Affairs and suspected Affairs order are as follows:

1984 Not sure if this one qualifies as an EA because we were not married at the time. (Approx summer I discoverd while we were engaged that she was talking and writing an old boyfriend she grew up with riding horses. She had not told this guy we were engaged. I made her choose. Either me or him. We either were getting married and she was telling him to back off or were weren't. She called him and told him and to my knowledge did not have further contact with him except for seeing him from a distance, until 1998. See next.

1998 EA (OM died in 1999) This guy as an became an alcholic and really destroyed his body. He was diabetic and did not take care of himself. His wife left him and took the kids. My wife felt sorry for him and ran into him at a horseshow in Aug 1998. He was the old boyfriend from (see above) when she was 10 - 12 yrs old. The guy was begging my wife to leave me and come up to his place and take care of him. The EA was all on the phone and lasted over the phone about 9 months. There was one kiss in 1998, she said it was not romantic though, more a goodbye kiss. (I never new about this one until counseling on 4/1/2001 after she told me she did not love me any longer)

2001 EA (no proof but I highly suspect it and even said so at the time) Her brothers moved in with a friend after her brothers divorce. There was a tanning bed at the house and her brother gave her a key to use anytime. That was around Dec 2000, wife told me she needed to go to IC in Feb 2001, after several session, told me she did not love me anymore on 4/1/2001. Her brother and friends partnership and friendship kinda went away in June 2001 and by July 2001 were in recovery. Full blown recovery by 9/11/2001. It is amazing what tragedy will do to bring people even closer.

2005 EA/PA Another horse guy. This time a trainer that provided her a horse to ride for free since we sold hers in Jan. This was not a trainer I knew nor did she know much about him, except for what she had seen at shows. I told her I had reservations about this situation. I questioned his motives, but she assured me it was fine that he was only doing it because he needed another amatuer rider. He had too many horses and not enough riders. She went to ride in Feb. They talked on the phone beginning pretty regularly in late Mar/April of this year. It was an addiction by May and she said it turned to PA in June. The kissing and hugging. She claims no SF or fondling etc... Even went as far to tell me she told him she could not do that because she saw what it did to her family when her sister did that 2 years earlier.

Melody I guess I tell you all the above because I really don't know what to believe anymore. She is very believable, but as you can see has been pretty decietful also.

Knowing all this, what does it sound like to you.

I blew it this morning. Wife said when we talk she feels like she cannot talk to me because I make her confused because I seek clarification of what she said by looking for some hidden meaning behind what she says. I am aware I do this but honestly don't realize it until it is already done. I don't know why. I guess an lack of confidence or something.

Anyway, she was real sad, cried alot. Basically said her heart is like granite and it took years for it to get that way and she is not sure if it will ever be right again. I told her we were both working toward a better marriage something she says she wanted, but she CANNOT see that happening. She says I may change for the short run but I will go back to the "old" ways.

I told her the MB process is something we have never tried before and I am learning so much that I did not understand until now.

She tells me she does not know how much more she can take of the probing, crying, being sad, feeling like she wants God to zap her (she assures me she will not do anything to herself). She just does not want to hurt anymore, hurt me anymore or the kids.

She says she only has 2 options. Die or pretend everything is ok and move forward. I really don't think she is in contact with OM. I think she is in deep depression and withdrawal from her horse show friends, OM and extreme guilt about what has happened.

I offered to cancel our MC session tommorow because it is so difficult for her. I did not offer to cancel SH session though on Thursday.

She says she feels like she will die at an old age without feeling passion and love for me. That grieves her terribly. I do believe she cannot see any progress. Maybe there has been non.

How can I help soften her heart? What can I do to show her I am being genuine. I am for the first time truely learning what LB with her and what makes her feel love. I don't want to blow this chance.

Any ideas on how to break through to a hard heart?

Today's Update Cont'd: See 2 posts above also for last night and this morning.

Just had another conversation with wife after lunch. We talked about what we both had done wrong in the past. She continues to say that her heart is dead to me and a Resurrection is much harder than a reviving of a heart.

I told her I was sorry but I don't know how to communicate it to her any better. I am learning knew things the last 2 months that I never knew before. What true love is and how it is born and stays alive.

She said she just can't make it any plainer that she just wants to stop hurting and wants to stop feeling like she wants to die. She claims it is not about any of her A's. She takes full responsibility of them and regrets them deeply because now she is having to earn my trust back. She says she only has history to base her feelings on and she says she knows what will happen. I will "change" for a while and then go back to doing the things I did before. Basically not meeting her EN's and LB'ing. I told her I would not claim to be perfect and I knew I would make mistakes, but I am trying as hard as I know how.

I am pouring everything I have into our marriage and will continue to do so. I told her I was not quiting but she needed to know that I am not forcing her to do anything. She is free to decide whatever, but I know for a fact we had a good marriage at one time and if she would meet me halfway I know we can get through this.

Once again, I told her she was free to decide whatever, but I was not giving up. I think she was a little shocked that I was leaving it in her court. I also reminded her that all of the things I learn will just be words until they are allowed to be put into practice.

She once again said that the history was the only thing she could use as a gauge. I told her we both are working on some trust issues. She is trying to earn my trust back and I am doing the same to a certain degree.

Could it be possible it is not about OM at this point and she is just shutdown emotionally to me? Am I saying the right things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

2nd Update Cont'd: See 3 posts above also for last night and this morning and at lunch

Things seem to be moving rather rapidly today. I don't know why but they are. This afternoon my W called me to update me on something after school about our oldest DS.

She then told me she wanted me to cancel our MC session tomorrow with our regular counselor.
{Earlier in the day - ( I told her that I was going to cancel the appointment because she was so stress and emotional today, I did not want her to go through that tomorrow, she said basically whatever I wanted to do. I asked her again and she said to wait she would think about it)}

I have basically gone into full 180 mod. I told her ok I would cancel and there was about a 3 second pause and then she said, no I will go. I think she was shocked that I did not beg her, try to sell her, or coax her into going. I have pretty much the last 2 days let her know that I am not keeping her, she is the one.

In the past she has tried to play the - trapped spouse game - but I have started reminding her she is staying on her own. She still tries to spin it to be something she is expected to do by me, kids, family, church, friends, but I have been very clear she is a Big Girl with a Big Girl car and Keys and can walk out the door anytime she wants too. I "felt" like I could tell what she was thinking. (This is my chance, I should go now, but Oh My God, what will I do, where will I go, it is the holidays, the kids, family, etc......) It was actually a relief this afternoon. I allmost felt empowered and rejuvenated and not a slave to her moods.

After processing some things on my own today, I have come to see a lot of what she has told me the last couple of days as BABBLE. There has been some valuable information I could use, but a lot is just foggy babble. I do feel she does not see the A's as being issues. I will let SH deal with that and to be perfectly honest if the symantics of how we discuss it (the chicken and egg scenrio) is the deal breaker then so be it. I don't want that to happen but I am just not going to be hung up on that like she is. The A's are issues, I made the enviorment ripe for affairs to occur by not meeting EN's and LBing. If she can't see it that way, then I say Oh Well ;;; I can only do what I can do.

Wife just came home from going to the visit some church members at the funeral home. She went with her Grandmother. She was unusually talkative and in a pretty good mood. My youngest DS asked me this afternoon after work why I was in a good mood. I just told him it was a good day to be alive. He seemed shocked.

I also did some more snooping and nothing showed up today.

My son asked what kind of day his mom had and I told him probably pretty crappy but told him not to worry about it. I told him I was done with worrying. I was not giving up, but I am not going to worry anymore. He actually seemed relieved.

I feel more free this afternoon and this evening than I have in weeks.

waiting, I am so proud of you! You have successfully placed the onus for your W's path of recovery back in her lap by reminding her that no one has a gun to her head! I sense that she has - strangely - allowed herself to feel she is your hostage. But, in reality, she is not. She is not a victim. This is not Afghanistan and you are not the Taliban. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is time that she owns her own behavior and you own yours. This is a great start.

Something else I am seeing here is that trying to educate her or work on your relationship seems to be pushing her away. Do you sense that?

Were you really that bad as a husband? What were her main complaints about you?

I am also concerned about her multiple affairs. It almost appears that this is a way of life with her. Of course, it is nothing that can't be changed, and if she buys into this program and works hard, she can change herself.

I really think you are doing great, waiting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel I am so glad you saw my post. I have grown to value your opinion greatly as many others.

Thanks for the encouragement about my recent progress. It has almost happened over a 24 hour period to be honest. I mean I know it did not happen over night, but some special strenght and perspective has come my way the last 24 hours.

I do think trying to educate her or work on our relationship seems to push her away. I don't know why but I do think you are right. I am not going to avoid it though. If she brings it up which she did today, I will talk about it.

Was I a bad husband? I don't think so. All our friends and family has said, what in the world does she have to complain about. Everyone says she has it made. She could come and go as she please to do her horse shows. 2 wonderful kids, smart, athletic, good looking. A husband (me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) that worships the ground she walks on.

I don't drink, smoke, gamble, go out with my guy friends. Everything I do, activities, plans, etc... revolve around my children and my wife. When she goes off for a few days to the horse shows, I shuttle our kids with help from other family and friends to and fro to their events and school. Do meals, clean house, etc....... She would even acknowledge all this.

SF was great, she would admit to that too. I am about 20 lbs heavier than when we married but I still look fairly trim and athletic. I keep my hair clean, neat, shave , etc...

Provide a very good income. We live in a very nice home. Well respected in the community. I teach sunday school. We are (or were) very regular at church activities. We have toured Europe, Mexico, Caribiean, Hawaii 2 times, all over the US. We home schooled our kids until the 6th grade.

I have never hit her, had angry outburst at her. I could go on.

Here is what she says is the problem. Basically, she says that when she has an opinion about something that I try to change her opinion or challenge her on it. She says I treated her like a Daddy at times and not a husband. Don't trust her. (wonder were that came from) I do interupt her at times expecially with other people around, but I am bad about that with many people.

I also am not a social butterfly and suffer from what I would cause mild social anxiety disorder. I don't do well mixing in crowds of people I don't know well. She says I make her miserable at events like this. I have tried to work on this but have not conquered that issue. I am hoping Lexapro will help.

Basically, what I told my MC last week is I am too nice. Her brother who's wife left him has a saying. The nice guys get screwed and the bad guys get to screw. Basically he says women are attracted to bad boys and not nice guys. I told my MC that I felt like the nice guy my BIL referenced. I know that is not true but it seems that way at times. I don't see any of what I have done as a deal breaker in our marriage, but apparantly it is.

Regarding the multiple affairs, you betcha some things will change. I have had fear through the process of what we will do if she aggrees to move forward 100%. At the moment, I am not going to negotiate anything to do with horse shows. Her problem is not that she is a dishonest person.

I have learned in MB with SH that her strongest EN's are weaknesses. Well conversation and Honest/Openness are 1 and 2 for her. If you know anything about my wife she is very good at conversation and just has the kind of personality that people bring their problems to. She always has an attentive ear. She is also a bit of a tomboy so at the horse shows the guys there talk to her like she is one of the guys and she feels that way. She is not really involved too much with many of the women in the industry. I mean she has female friends but she mostly talks with the men.

So if Conversatoin and Honest/Open which is transparency in my book, that can lead to an EA very easy.

Thanks for reading.

She TREATS you like her daddy, I have noticed. She whines like a teenage girl about how she "haaaaaaaas to follow the rules," and "its nooooooooooooot faaaaaaaaair!!" She sulks when she imagines she can't have her way. BUT, she can ALWAYS have her way. She is a big girl with big girl shoes and a big girl car who can locate the darn door, I presume.

She is playing a role because she does not want to be accountable for her decisions. Maybe you don't see it, waiting, but many of the things she says are very much like a teenage girl who is whining, rather than a grown up woman. As long as she blames you for making her do things, she doesn't have to own her behavior or make changes. DADDY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey I never thought of it like that. I guess you are right.

BTW, I used your big girl keys, car etc.. on her yesterday. Thanks for the phrase. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS, I forgot to mention and it goes hand in glove with what you said. A lot of the issues she has occured will we were in highschool 20+_ yrs ago. Things I would not let her do, go etc.... Of course I was a jelous over protective teenager at the time, but that does not matter.

You are right.

Thanks

So, she CHOOSES to accede to your wishes and it becomes "he won't allow me." How did you become her Big Poppa?

What was the threat if she didn't mind you? A grounding? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Waiting - been out. Just reading the latest.

You are opening the cage door here buddy! She is seeing her freedom and asking herself if she wants to take it. Excellent. I think you are doing well. I really like what you are saying here.

And Mel's advice is excellent as always.

She is going to MC today and has not cancelled out but I promise the 1st time she says she doesn't want to go or hates it or whatever, I am going to remind her it is her choice, if she doesn't want to go, don't go !!!

Don't get the wrong impression, I am not going to turn into a mean person, but I am going to show her that her choices are hers and I am not making her do anything. I am so over that !!!

I will post later what is going on after our session today.

I got the whole 'Daddy' thing exactly from my wife too!

She said that I treated her like one of the kids...but when I asked for specific examples of it, she couldn't come up with any. I HAVE made a definite effort to always back her up when she's dealing with the kids (even if I happen to disagree with her, I'll talk with her about it AWAY from the kids). But I too got that whole 'controlling, trying to be my father' speech when my wife was WW.

And I told her pretty much what Mel has told you...she was always a big girl able to make her own decisions. And yet she CONSTANTLY put it on me to make the choices for her...she WANTED me to do that. I would also like to point out that we discussed the whole issue in depth in many of our MC sessions...and I've not heard her say anything about this kind of problem in over a year.

Feel free to share my story with her if you feel that it will help in any way.

Be cautious of sudden turn arounds in behavior like you've described...I'm not saying that it's not real, but it's not unusual for a repenent WS to go back and forth like this for quite a while before truly deciding to stick to the effort needed to rebuild things.

Hang in there friend.

Thanks Owl you are very wise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. No pun intended. BTW, Owl's are my favorite bird. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I am fully prepared for the back and forth. Probably more aware and prepared than I have ever been. I am no longer going to be the whining doormat begging her to stay and to keep going to MC. I am going to still try not to LB and meet her EN's but I'll be darned if I am going to pine away and woe is me about it.

Today is a good day, I am not going to be depressed and I do not depend on her for happiness !!! I love her more than anyone can know, but I am done with the old way of dealing with things. Thank God, Praise Jesus I have been freed from my old bondage.

I fully expect the MC session to be just as painful and heart wrenching as always. I fully expect to hear how I have hurt her so much by not letting her be herself over the last 20+ yrs and I fully expect her to say she doesn't need a Daddy and I fully expect her to tell me she doesn't want to hurt anymore, but I think I am prepared.

Oh I know I will have moments of weakness and my stomach will churn with nausea at times, but I will rebound back to my stronger self much quicker.

Heck, I even started a diet today to loose those 20 lbs I put on. Not for her, but for me. I am tired of grunting when I bend over to tie my shoes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Lord is good and provides me strength today.

Phil 4:13 - I can do all things through Him .....

Way to keep the great attitude man!

And...I've said it here and on other forums, and will keep it going as long as I need to...

THIS Owl is NOT wise. If I were wise, I would have been able to avoid any of the problems that lead to my being on these boards myself. And the reason I go by Owl actually has nothing to do with wisdom...it's for other reasons entirely. (But, Owls ARE my favorite bird too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm just opinionated, and love giving advice! Now, if I get lucky once in a while and it helps someone, more the better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I truly was refreshed and excited to tell the MC my progress and my sudden realization of what I needed to do for myself to make this work. It is amazing. I told her it was like another light was turned on yesterday. When I told her she was not being held by me, the kids, or anyone I felt free all of the sudden. I must admit, it was a little tough sucking in the air to be able to utter the words, but when they came out it was like a huge relief on my part.

Once again, please no one get confused. I still love my wife very much. I am very p*ssed about the situation with the A but I am over it to the point that "it" and her "ups and downs" are not holding me hostage. I am not responsible for how she feels. In fact I told the MC today that my biggest issue that I created was trying to protect her from harm emotionally with troubling things. A noble thought, but not practical. I should have let the same sh*t hit her in the face that I dealt with with our such as family issues, business issues, finances, etc.....

What a relief I feel. She seemed a little better too, although she did zone out a bit when she left to go pickup the kids from school this afternoon, but you know what. That is her deal, not mine. WHAT FREEDOM !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Praise God. I feel like shouting !!! I really can't wait to go home tonight to experience another night at home with this freedom. Don't get me wrong, nothing amazing from my wife occurred last night but I did not feel like the weight of the world was on my back. I did not even tell her good night. I just read, watched the football game and feel asleep in bed.

I really am looking forward to progress that I know is coming. Hopefully she will improve but for now, this is about me getting better and learning how to be the Husband I should have been all along.

PS Mel. I told our MC what you said about spoil little teenage girl. She agreed very much. In fact the MC must have come down on her pretty hard about the same thing. God works in mysterious ways does he not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This evening WW slipped back into zombie mode. She was playful and loving with the kids but pretty much ignored me and when they went to bed, she zoned out and did not say anything and eventually went to sleep in her chair.

For conversation to be a big deal for her, she sure seems like it isn't. Oh Well. I guess I will look at it as being her loss, not mine.

I still feel free.

hang tough waiting

Thanks BK. I am doing much better. Not as high as yesterday, but still have a very good outlook. She seems better this morning in a pretty good mood when I left for work.

Now that I have a better perspective I think I will be able to concentrate on trying to be more creative on meeting at least 2 of her top 4 needs. Conversation and Honesty/Openness. Of course no creativity needed for HO.

I will have to be very very creative with Affection and SF since she wants nothing to do with either. I am not sure that is even possible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but would sure like to try. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I leave to go to South Dakota next week Pheasant hunting for 4 days. I would love to get some kind of response from her before I leave but I know that might be asking too much too soon.

God is Good and I Praise Him for giving me strength to make it this far. Thanks guys for all you do. These boards are as important if not more so than the MC and MB counseling with SH. It truly is a Godsend to have special people such as yourselves willing to give up your time to help a fellow BS or WS. What a community.

One of my favorite verses! I like that you are using this scripture right now; it is very powerful in fighting adultery.

I think that she believes that there is empowerment in victimhood. But instead it has kept her down all these long years. If she allows someone to prevent her from "being herself," then she is not a victim, but a volunteer, because no one but she has the power to be herself.

She is the one with the power in her hands. And as her Big Poppa Daddy, you are hereby bequeathing back to her the power to "be herself." Just give her back the power, waiting. Tell her it all hers to be herself or whoever ****** she wants to be. She can be Puff Daddy if she wants! She has that freedom! From this day forward, she has the power!

Now, I want to know how long she has been manipulating you with this inappropriate guilt? And, does the MC recognize that she is shifting blame for her choices to you?

I see I am a day late and a dollar short and just read your post about the MC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I am so glad you feel relieved. Do you think it is because it has been such a burden being responsible for her moods and happiness all these years? I think you said earlier that you had felt you were a hostage to her moods. And you know what, there truly is empowerment is taking responsibility for oneself so I bet she benefits from your new approach. She will feel more in control and less resentful of you.

Well Mel,

To be bluntly honest I have felt burdened and guilty by her moods. She actually transfers is to our children too, but I have not noticed it until now.

Just about the time you responded to my post she came into my office and tried to small talk with me. I knew she had this wild look on her face. More in her eyes. It is almost like an animal looks when they are fearful and angry at the same time. She told me she does not want to SH tomorrow in our session. I asked her if that meant tomorrow as in tomorrow or SH anymore.

She said she did not want to talk to him period and did not want to do what SH and I was telling her she had to do. I asked for clarification on what I was making her do and she said she could not do Affection or SF without feelings and was not going to. She doesn't believe it will work. I reminded her that I have not asked her to do anything and also that SH used the example of training for a 10K road race. If you are out of shape you don't go out and run a 10K the first day (ie SF) you go out and do what you can do, walk 1/2 mile or run a 1/4 mile or 100 yds (ie hand holding, kiss goodbye in the morning or something similar) Then work you way up to the 10K.

She said she is tired of butting her head against a wall doing things that are not working. I asked her to tell me what she has done of my Top 4 EN's that she has butted her head against the wall on. She said she has been honest (ooooouuu her honesty comes in the form of non caring hurtful things toward me she does not want to do) Boy that really is meeting my EN. And she says we have recreated together. (wow, we have watched some football on tv together with the kids).

She says to do A or SF without feelings and when she does not want to violates the Honesty/Openness part.

She also says our sitch is different in that her heart is like stone. I told her it is not because I see her interact with the kids. Same heart.

I did not try and talk her into talking with SH but I did push her on what her goal was. At 1st she said is was to feel peace inside and not hurt anymore. I asked her how have I caused her to not have peace. She could not come up with a good answer.

I asked her if she wanted a happy marriage with me. She said she would like to think that is possible. I asked her again, do you want a happy marriage with me. She said yes it would be better for all concerned, her, me the kids and everyone.

I then asked her what her plan was to have feelings for me if she was not going to follow the MB principles. She said she did not know, but she was not going to do A and SF if she had no feelings. She wanted to know if she said ok, lets go home and have sex right now, what would I do. I told her I would not do it because I am not in the mood at the moment. She says she is the same way but she wants intimacy before sex. I said I understand that and that is why you start slow and do what you can.

She is just really hung up on A and SF. I then asked if she was comparing me to someone else and of course she says no, none of this is about anyone else. I then asked if that meant we were going to quit going to our other MC, and she cocked her head with a sh*t eating grin and said no. I asked why, and she said because Lorie (our MC) is not telling her to do something she does not want to do. She is telling her to be honest with everyone.

I told her I was going to go ahead and talk to SH because it is paid for at the moment and I am at least going to try to do what he suggest. The program is world renowned for its success. She says he is telling us what we want to hear. I told her he has not told me anything I wanted to year yet. To be perfectly honest everything I have heard is pretty difficult to listen to. It shows me how far off base I have been.

I really felt like crying, but I did not. I keep telling myself, don't cry, don't beg and I did not. I am sure I looked very disappointed but I did not beg her to talk to SH.

I really do not know where this is going. I don't know if the OM is still in the picture and that is her hangup or she is just so darn stubborn and has read too much from the Oprah magazine and watched too much Oprah on TV and read too many relationship articles. I really don't know. I do know this, that the wife that was smart, reasonable, had plenty of common sense and would never hurt anyone has turned into a careless, selfish, self centered, irrational woman. I know the same good in her is still there because I see it with other people, but it is just not there for me at the moment.

Phil 4:13, Phil 4:13, Phil 4:13

God give me the strength today for my load is heavy.


PS Earlier this morning I asked if she was coming to church and she quickly said nope.

waiting, don't let this alarm you. SH can still guide you through this without her participation. Let him assess this development and tell you how to proceed. It is not unusual for recovery to go up and down, up and down, it usually is NEVER easy.

This development might be much better than having her go through the motions pretending to work the program and then blaming you for her decision. It's better for her to take accountability for her actions than blame you. I am sure SH will have lots to say on this.

But don't despair, waiting, this is never easy. You will have good days and bad days.

Thanks for offering the encouragment.

I forgot to mentin this tidbit of info.

Oh she told me she did not see how doing A or SF without feelings was going to make her feel any better. I told her it was not for her. It was for me. She really did not like that. I told her the 4 things I was supposed to do was to help her have feelings for me. I knew I might be able to do 3 of the 4 since SF is totally out of the picture at the moment but I was going to keep trying 1-3. C, HO, A.

At the end of our debate, conversation or whatever it was, I told her I was going to continue the program and talk to SH and try to learn more and be a better husband. I then told her hopefully the things I do will give her some feelings before I loose my feelings for her.

The conversation pretty much ended and she left the office. She went to her grandmothers to help with her Christmas decorations and I called her a few minutes later and she went to the local park and cried it out in the car she said. I did not ask anything or ask her for anything. I also reminded her in a text message that for her to remember I did not ask her nor tell her what she was going to do, I was just asking for information.

I do hope SH has something up his sleeve for me.

You know...I'd tell her to just quit worrying about SF for now. Tell her that you're not worried about that either. At this point, it would simply be nice if she'd hold hands with you...even if she didn't feel like it. An occasional hug, a kiss on the cheek...small things.

Tell her that worrying about SF is the last thing she needs to do. It will happen when/if it happens. Right now, just show you the same kind of physical affection that she would show her mom, the kids, etc...

Between us, that IS the basics to start with. First, you have to be allowed back 'in her space'. She has to get comfortable with the idea of allowing you within her personal space again. The occasional non-threatening hug, the holding hands, etc...these little things will get her accustomed to that. Once these begin to become a little more natural for her, things can progress from there...but don't tell her that.

It's like courtship all over again. When you first started dating, you had to work up the courage to get within her space. So you'd touch her shoulder, brush her hair back, etc... And she would subtly let you know that it was ok for you to do so, by not reacting negatively to it. This is where the two of you have to start again.

I had to do the same with my wife after her EA. Slowly getting into her space in ways that were non-threatening. Finally get to where she'd let me touch her hair, neck, face, etc... When she was really crying hard she got to where I could hold her. Then finally one evening she was complaining about how bad her back felt from sleeping on the couch...so I got some lotion and massaged her back. NOTHING else...although I could tell that my massage was getting to her in that way. A few days later, the same thing...only this time it did get more personal. But still not SF. That took a good while to work up to.

Basically, this is the info you need. SHE needs to feel less threatened by the SF thing...so take it off the plate now, and simply work on OTHER means of physical affection. SF will follow once she has relaxed enough to allow some of those feelings to return.

And as far as her feeling all of this pressure...ask her to simply stop worrying about it. There is no reason for her to be stressed out over all of this...all she needs to do is to RELAX, and stop fretting over what she does and doesn't feel. She needs to just relax, learn to spend time with you and the kids again, and let the feelings either come on their own, or not. And quit worrying about it right now.

My thoughts at least...hope they help.

I can't get over this feeling that she is hiding something. Do you sense this, waiting?

I haven't read the entire thread but the last few posts indicate there's a great internal struggle. Seems like this BS is doing good at confusing the WS. All that anger the WS has at the BS is because the BS is undermining the A.

Any WS who says they won't have an A or SF is babbling. Pure BS babble.

Waiting has done well in his retorts to the WS. He needs to keep his appointment with Steve and set a plan for himself and his family. No plans for the WS, except to keep his family safe from her backlashes and outbreaks. He needs to expect that it will happen.

He is doing good and glad to see is having good support. Keep up the good work, Mel.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks, Orchid.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes Mel I have felt the same way and have done everything I can to try to figure it out.

She may be hiding that she plans on leaving after Christmas, I don't have any proof of that nor do I see her making any plans.

She may be hiding that they actually did have sex and does not have the courage to tell me, once again I have no proof and everytime I bring it up she denies it completely.

She may be hiding that she is still in contact with OM. Of course she denies that and says this is about her feelings for me and nobody else.

I don't know. It may be that she is not and I am just paranoid. Who the h3ll knows these days.



Owl,

I have and mentioned that this morning but she even says the A would be a lie and she does not want to lie.

Orchid,

I plan on keeping my appt with SH. That is the only thing I know to do.

Thanks guys.

I must admit and I having a hard time finding my stronger self. I haven't given up, but this put me in a real downer funk at the moment. Makes me feel sad again. Even though I knew something like this would occur the pain is still here. (point at my heart).

Thanks a million guys. I don't know where I would be without all of you.

waitingonlove,


So...She feels like she is lieing if she shows you affection and SF, because she doesn't feel it in her heart. Or she likes to play games with your head, and have you chase after her.

I wouldn't even try anymore, just wait for her to come to you. You can't make someone want you. You've said enough. But in time you will know if it's just a game she is playing, when she finds you giving up the chase, and hopefully then she will come to you.

I guess all you can do is work on the other needs until then.

It looks like you have been waitingonlove for a long time...hopefully not much longer.

Lady

Thanks Lady

I don't think it is about games. I do think it is about her and her being her own boss so to speak. It is definately all about her at the moment. I don't think she really cares if I quit trying to meet any EN's at this point. Well I guess that isn't true. If I were to quit bringing home a paycheck or doing stuff for the kids or something like that she wouldn't like it, but as far as A, SF, RC, she could care less.

But I am going to keep on trying to chip away at her granite heart.

Waiting,
I have followed your thread since day one when I encouraged you to move to this forum. You have done very well my friend.
One piece of advice.....take it for what its worth. I would stop asking her about contact or any other details. Go completely stealth. If she is in contact she is not going to tell you. I totally believe that stealth is the way to go so that you know your enemy.
In my early days before I found MB I was way too inquisitive. I was not going to get the honesty at that point. If I had it to do all over again I would not have driven the A underground by not being covert in my actions.
Other than that I think you are doing great. You have a chance. And a chance is all that a bs can expect at this point.

Blessings to you!

I wonder what would happen if you stopped bringing home a paycheck because "your heart wasn't into it?" That would be ok, wouldn't it?

Mel is allsome! Keep listening closely to her! She KNOWS the enemy!

Thanks Texas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder what would happen if you stopped bringing home a paycheck because "your heart wasn't into it?"

LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That's an excellent point Melody...I think waitingonlove should relay that one onto his wife.
Maybe she needs some good old 180 stuff too...!

Lady

I would think she would be pretty ticked off rather than being apathetic that I did not bring home a paycheck.

Surely she would understand, right? I mean, you shouldn't be forced to do something you don't feel like doing. Maybe your heart just isn't into it....

I wonder what would happen if you stopped bringing home a paycheck because "your heart wasn't into it?"

Oh.... Melody fed me the same "line" when I came here as a BS 3 months ago....and I wouldn't let my H touch me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But it worked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lady

can you tell me what a 180 is. I am not sure I know exactly. is it when you stop meeting WS needs? I am open to anything at this point.

waiting, I don't think you should do the 180, and neither would SH suggest it, but I do just want you to consider what I said about meeting her needs. I think you should continue to meet her needs, but there is a glaring disparity of obligation here. Why is meeting your needs an option, that is contingent upon her feelings, but meeting her needs is an obligation?

Waitingonlove,

I was just kidding on the 180 stuff....it's not for your sitch.


Lady

Mel, I am not sure why she sees meeting my needs the way she does. I wish I did understand. What do you see?

Hey guys, thanks for everybody chipping in the last couple of hours. I am sorry for the brief comments. I was at church and using my phone and typing comments is tedious work at best, plus I was trying to pay attention.

Mel, I don't know why she sees it as an option and I also don't know why see just would not start out slow with hand holding or something like that. I know she is not totally doing without affection because both our boys are very loving and hug her, cuddle with her, etc.... so her affection bank is plenty full, but not by me. Of course I know it is not the same thing but it is similar.

Should I mention the paycheck and job thing to her or just let is pass?

Texas,

What is going Stealth?

Sorry guys for asking so many technical questions but I don't know all the lingo yet.

I see that she feels entitled to have her needs met but feels it is an option to meet yours. I would be interested to know if she feels its ok for you to not earn any money in January because you don't feel like it. Would it be ok if you did nothing with the kids next year because you don't feel like it? [family committment]

If meeting your needs is entirely contingent upon her feelings du jour, shouldn't meeting her needs be contingent on your feelings?

Or would she call you a bum if you quit earning money and didn't spend any time with your kids?

I would suspect she would be pretty pi**ed off and call me something. I know she would at least be as frustrated with me as I am her at the moment.

Waiting, how's it going?

I've been thinking about you.

I lived by Romans 8:28 when my wife left me.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Waiting,
what I meant by going stealth is that you should continue to try and find out about no contact or contact, whatever it may be. It is extremely important that she not know you are checking up on her so to speak. And that means not asking about contact either. Dont ask but keep checking. And be very careful about this. If contact is continuing, and you arent asking about it and not showing any indication that you think contact is occurring, she will get sloppy. It always happens. They cant cover all their tracks and when they are deeply into the fantasy, they will eventually make a mistake while feeding the addiction.
You must do this in order to know your enemy and know exactly what you are dealing with. But above all.....stop asking about contact. Serves no purpose in my mind.

Blessings,
WCNT

BK,

Thanks for asking. I have been doing pretty good until yesterday at noon when she told me she did not want to talk to SH today. We had a typical relationship talk that went no where and I told her I was going to talk to SH anyway and do what he instructed as I thought the program made sense.

I appreciate the verse also. It is one of my favorites as well in fact I have quote it back to God several times through this whole ordeal.


Texas,

Thanks for the info on stealth. I agree and will follow that. SH even said the same thing. He wondered if she is in C but also said it could be that she is just taking a little longer. I will not mention it though. It does make sense that they do get sloppy.

I am going to update later on another post about my conversation with SH and what my wife said afterwards. It is fairly lengthy and as someone told me I should look for what good information I can find among her Babble because usually in the Babble there could possibly be a shred of something that could benefit me to be able to know how to meet her needs better and avoid trouble also.

Thanks for everyones support. It really means more than you can imagine. When the post come flying in non stop at a time when I am really down like yesterday evening, it lifts my spirits.

Thanks again.

I had the appointment with SH and he was not shocked that my wife was not in attendance. I did learn a valuable lesson from yesterdays relationship talk with my wife that SH pointed out. My wife kinda trapped me in a line of questioning about SH's assignment for her. She wanted to know if I thought SHE should do Affection or SF if she had no feelings for me. I tried to avoid answering the question but she kept forcing the issue.

(Now remembering a conversation we have had before about a year ago where we both admitted that we have allowed SF before when one of us was either tired or did not particularly want to, we both kinda laughed about it because she thought it only happened to her and we both reasoned that it was fine to do that as long as doing it did not make us unhappy or angry. Kinda like looking after each other or putting the other persons before oneself. Both of us agreed that was OK and it had worked in the past, both we both agreed that it was not a large percentage of the time compared to when we both were 100%)

So remembering all that, I prefaced my answer with above and asked her if she recalled that conversation. She of course did. I said then what is the difference now. She said that while she enjoyed it then that allot of times it left her feeling "hollow". What the crap does that mean? If she has a great experience and I do too, how does one feel "hollow"?

Anyway, SH said when she wants to discuss things SHE should be doing for me, I should not answer her. Give her the politicians answer of no answer. Say, something like, I am trying to understand things better and learn myself, maybe that is something you should ask SH next time you talk to him. I wished I had thought of that at the time, but I did not.

SH wants us to complete the Rec. Q. He really wants me to concentrate on things we both have an interest in and if she does not, avoid it, as an activity, as a couple. So that is that on my talk with SH. I will meet with him again in 2 weeks.

When I got back to my office, my wife was there and wanted to small talk about some stuff at 1st, and then she said she thought the air needed cleaning between us, that after yesterday at noon, we neither one seemed to want to talk about what happened. That is when she told me she did not want to talk to SH today. She also was curious about my conversation with SH.

I told her that I was pretty down yesterday about her not talking to him today, but I am over it now. She implied I was mad but I told her no way was I mad, but I was hurt. She admitted she was mad.

We talked that out some and then she started in on how she was tired of how she felt and something had to give.

On Tuesday she told our MC (not SH) that she had actually thought of how to end her own life and that it would be an easy way to get out of the pain. We have had many conversations about this before (even 4 yrs ago) and I pressed her to be sure she would not and she said certainly she would not, that it would be the cheap way out but devastating to our boys, me and family and friends and just knew that it would be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I then told her I had the same type of thoughts, but did not consider it because of the same issues. She acknowledged that she knew I must also struggle with that and wishes that I did not. I told her I pray my way through it and just shake myself loose from those thoughts and would never do that either.

I told her also what motivated me to not end my own life is not only the pain it would cause, but also the wonderful things I would miss out on if God did not take me from this earth early.

Grandchildren to enjoy with her, seeing our kids through college, know our boys future wives, retirement and travel with her, etc.... Her comment was while I can see those things in the future as happy things, SHE cannot see them with me and being happy. She says the only way she can see those things "at the moment" with me in the future is by pretending and faking it. She says she is not faking it anymore so for that to happen she has to have some feelings.

She said other than our kids, that her life pretty much sucked. I asked her was she sure and she said yes. She asked me, doesn't mine suck at the moment. I said yep, at this very point in time things are not great, but I would not say that my life sucks. I told her I have a beautiful and wonderful wife that God has blessed me with, 2 great children with no health problems, God has blessed us with a very good business, lots of friends and good family and a good church and fairly good health.

Then I mentioned some people that are going through some terrible times right now with either lost children, spouses , terrible disease etc.... and said I think there lot in life right now sucks. She thought for a moment and said I was right. Her life does not suck and it is all about perspective.

She said she was told by our MC Tuesday that only she could make herself feel better and do something about her thoughts and no one else. She said she knows that and is going to do something about it. I asked her if her solution was to leave me and she told me " that is not what she said".

We talked a little more and then she told me "she was going to feel better and figure out how". I asked her how and she said she did not know. She said "either she will get feelings back for me or she is out of here" (meaning the marriage).

I told her that was no news, but I did ask her if she had a time table on how long she was waiting on feelings and she said with a 'sigh' no she does not have a time table.

That was pretty much it and then shortly after that she left for an appointment to get her nails done. One thing she did do for me, my back is killing me and has been for 2 weeks. She made me an appointment to get a massage. I go at today for my first spa massage. At least she cared enough to worry about how I felt physically I guess.

That is my update Guys. Where do you think I stand?

I am teetering on worry. I haven't decided is a positive move or several steps back occur this morning. I did not act needy, pathetic or begging with her this morning but please read the last 12 hours for what I am taking about. I don't know if she is about to walk out the door or this is a breakthrough.
.......................

Last night 12/1 we went to a Christmas Parade as a family in our town. It was pretty fun and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. Wife seemed happy and when we got home for moderately talkative. Both of us feel asleep in the den watching TV after the kids went to bed. We both woke up about 1am and went to bed.

As I went to bed I just gently rub her back for no more than 3 seconds and said good night and kissed her on her hair. (as SH said I need to continue to do her top 4 EN but very slowly.)

She tossed and turned all night after that. I got up and carried the kids to school and went to work.

My wife showed up at my office this morning. She had a hair appointment at 9:30 and stopped by to talk a few minutes.

She said she needed to talk and does not have anyone she can talk to about how she feels except Lorie our MC. She does not want to talk to her family or friends about any of this. I said I understand and am glad she came to me to talk.
She asked me if I was frustrated at all last night. I asked her what she meant and she said she tossed and turned all night and just was frustrated. She hates nighttime now. She told me she had a good time and the parade and it would have been nice to have had some feelings for me watching the parade and cuddle in the cold, but she just did not. She said last night she wanted to have feelings for me and rollover and have some affection and feelings of romance but she just does not and she is frustrated and can't do it anymore.

I asked her what that meant and she said she just could not do it anymore. I told her maybe she needed to tell some of this to SH. She emphatically told me she would not talk to SH again. I said fine that I am not telling her to, I just suggested it.

I reminded her the door was open and she could leave anytime. I did not want her to leave but no one was making her stay. She said she did not say she wanted to leave but she knew that. She asked me what was she supposed to do, just hang out indefinitely to see if feelings for me come back? I told her we have really only been following MB for 3 weeks and out of 21 yrs that is a short period of time. She said she has been trying for 5 yrs (1st EA and time in MC) and she came back and she feels like I tricked her by changing and then going back to the way I was before. I told her I was not following MC principles then and I know so much more now and am still learning, besides I was the one that was responsible for her loosing her feelings for me, not her. There was nothing she could do. She said she wished I had tried sooner, now she doesn't even care. (She is crying when she is telling me all this). I told her I understand and hear her.

She said she is at least not mad at me anymore. Just sad about the situation. ( I hope that is progress, SH told me yesterday that it is very common for WS to feel hopeless as they make progress) She said she read something Dr. Phil wrote yesterday that said the opposite of Love is not Hate but Apathy. I told her I her what she is saying but I don't believe allot of what Oprah and Dr. Phil have to say.

She then said she just cannot continue to live feelings like this. She wants to have feelings for me but does not (doesn't sound like apathy to me) and just can't take it anymore. I told her, fine she can go home and pack her stuff anytime she wants to and the door is open. As soon as I said that her facial expression changed immediately and she got very angry. She said, I am not going to pack anything. I said, well do you expect me too. She said no. That is not what she is saying. ( I am confused ???) I said why are you so angry and she told me she was sorry, she was not really angry just frustrated and talked about the last 5 yrs and tricked stuff again. I said I am doing all I can to learn to be a better husband and be the kind of husband you needed and that was my fault.

We pretty much ended the conversation as she had to go to her hair appointment at her sisters salon.

I just hope the sister does not destroy any progress.

Does anyone see progress here?

If she is no longer mad at me about past issues, but just sad is that progress?

This is really the 1st time that she has brought up wanting to have feelings for me, albeit she says she doesn't and then follows it up with she just doesn't care anymore? It sounds like conflicting statements.

Is most of the babble and is there any positive information in here for me to use?

I apologize for the length of the post, but I wanted to provide as much detail as possible.

waiting, I know all this alarms you, but her state of mind is not different frm most recovering WS. They feel hopeless because they don't "feel" anything for the BS yet. But those feelings do slowly come. I would stick with it and avoid placing any expectations on her. Don't try to convince her of anything, just DO your best to meet her needs when the opportunity presents itself. And I really like how you continually remind her that she is not trapped. She has choices and cannot blame anyone else for them. Nor can she blame anyone but herself if she chooses to "pretend" or act fraudulently. Shame on her if she does that. I actually think it is better for your relationship that she is being forthright instead of acting the conflict avoider. At least this way you know where you stand.

And I am NOT surprised she is avoiding Steve. Steve has her #, which makes her uneasy. He will guide you through this, though. Hang tight, waiting and be patient. This is hard, but the payoff will be well worth it.

Mel

I am so glad to hear what you and others familiar with my sitch have to say. I am hoping this is progress.

She called me this afternoon and wanted to have relationship talk and we pretty much talk about the same thing. I reassured, she basically cried and said she wanted to shake me and did not understand why I did not react before. She says we worked on this before and I went back to old ways.

I told her we only learned to argue and clear the air. I am just know learning how to love and how to avoid loosing love. She seems to be really thinking things through.

I see it as a possitive that she is not angry with me anymore and just sad. Too me that seems like the progression to something else. If she is sad it means she mourns something, doesn't it.

She is absolutely for sure not going to talk to SH or do any MB stuff. I am not sure she would pull up the website right now. I really wish she would. I would love for her to read some of the posts of other WS's that have recovered.

Thanks so much Mel. You have been great and always you are very wise and to the point.

God's Blessing on you and your family.

WOL

I think she has been sad all along but has been so defensive that she used the anger as a protective wall. Most WS are initially angry and it is a defense mechanism. But I think she is showing you a truer face now than she has in the past.

If she can be angry at you, then she can make you the bad guy instead of her. So I view the lack of anger as a good sign. With no anger, she is forced to face herself and that has to be very hard for her.

Additionally, you have retired your position as head jailer, which shifts the responsibility for herself back to HER. That can't be easy when you have been a prisoner - in your own mind, at least - for all of your adult life. All of this newfound freedom probably scares the ****** out of her because she has just realized what all newly freed persons recognize: with freedom comes responsibility.

And don't fret about her refusal to work MB principles. That will probably all change after she gets out the fog and realizes that she truly wants to stay.

You are probably are right about the sadness being the way she truely is and using the anger to cover it up.

I can tell that she does not like having to take ownership of her staying. It is strange how before it was my keeping her. Now she is telling me the only reason she is staying at this point is for the kids sake.

She also told me this evening that she had to get some sleep and she was going to sleep in another bedroom tonight and would continue to do so until she decides to change.

I told her no problem, she can decide whatever she wants to do. I am not telling her what to do on anything.

We all went to dinner tonight, 2 DS, DS's friend and 1 nephew. She was especially talkative and seemed to have a good time. What is crazy she seems to be able to interact with me in public but once everyone else is gone like at night alone, she shuts down. In public it is like it has always been, but alone at home, she is like a zombie.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I guess I will be solo in bed for awhile. Things could be worse.

I am a little concerned about next week. I have to leave to go out of town next tuesday night and will not return until Sunday. I hope timing is not bad on this trip.

It is after midnight and just got back from taking my sons girlfriend home. When DS and I returned I was hoping maybe my wife had changed her mind and gone to bed in our bed. To my disappointment she is in bed in the other bedroom but our sweet and loving youngest son is sleeping with her. I can't bear to go to bed alone.

I know this is probably the beginning of things getting better but I am deeply sad that it has come to this. My heart breaks for what we are missing. Our 21st anniversary is 12/15. I never thought we would be in this shape. It always happened to others. We talked about how terrible it would be to go through what others have gone through. Many our friends. Even our own family members. She even counseled with her own sister during her affair and her sister said the exact same thing about her marriage and husband that she is now saying about me. What is so mind boggling is that my wife at the time told her own sister the same things everyone else is telling her. Now she can't even listen to her own advice.

When I reference before her own advice she gave, she now says it was wrong for her to give input on something she knew nothing about and had not been there before.

I am just really down at the moment.

Well today has gone ok, but I am a bit disturbed about something. Our 2 DS's and I are at home stringing the lights on our Christmas tree while my WW has gone to her cousins wedding. It is a wedding, dance, supper, etc.... She did not want me to go with her.

Also tonight her parents are having their big Christmas party blowout party at their house. Each year it is a big dr*nkfest where many very socialable and at the end of the party there are always people hanging out late. My wife is a very attractive women and she recieved and very nice looking suit aas a birthday gift this year. She looked wonderful on the way out the door tonight for the wedding. As she was leaving, she told me if the wedding is over early she will probably stop off at her parents party.

What bothers me about that is she has been hit on almost every year at this party by drunk men usually. I am concerned that she would go to this party without me knowing what has happened in the past. Too me I would never do that to her, but I guess I should not expect anything else from her at this point. It just hurts my feeling greatly. I did not LB though. I know she knows I am not happy about it. Especially since I offered get dressed up and go to the party with her.

Am I wrong about my feelings or just being jelous? Part of me feels like I am being over protective and jelous but another part of me feels like in our current sitch she should not do what she is most likely going to do tonight.

I guess this is the freedom that I told her she had the last few days.

Am I wrong about my feelings or just being jelous? Part of me feels like I am being over protective and jelous but another part of me feels like in our current sitch she should not do what she is most likely going to do tonight.

No waiting I don't think you are just being jealous, it's hurts to not be able to go with her, which is the way it should be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh... the selfishness of foggy WS's.


Prayers that she won't end up at the party and come home, and that this wedding will remind her of her own years ago.
Lady

Just a thought;

Can't you get one of your sons to call your wife's family and fanagil yourselves an invitation or an insistance you come. Don't let wife paint you in a bad light...with you there she can either be civil or be monster, her choice. Wife wants her freedom...what about yours. She may be furious at the party but you do not let it affect you...her family insisted you come and you are free to decide what to do with your night as well.

Try to have a nice time despite your wife. Women are attracted to happy - self-assured - confident men. The man you were when you met.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

Lady thank you so much for your prayers. I wish she saw it your way. Last night I was pretty down, but if she goes to the party I know I will be down. I guess to avoid LBing I should not bring it up. At what point are BS's allowed to be truthful about their feelings without it damaging any recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for your post. Also, I got the email last night and downloaded the file. Thanks so much. I sent you an email also.

Regarding your comment above, I wish is was so easy. I really am not in the best of graces with my inlaws at this point. I used to be very tight with them but over the last year I have lost that. Mostly it comes from my unwillingness to associate with my wifes sister and her new husband after she and her current husband (former OM - Sister In Laws Brief History ) Her family along with my wife supported our BIL during affair, divorce proceedings and even testified for BIL to get the kids which he did. But over time everyone came back to my SIL and her husband (former OM). Also, I am afraid my WW has made me look like a jelous over protective man, but I know she has not let them know the whole story.

Anyway, I would not be able to just show up. It would make my wife extremely angry, but also my in-laws would act ugly to me I am sure.

Thanks for the idea though.

She has the "freedom" to walk out the door, but she doesn't have the "freedom" to act like a single woman and still maintain all the benefits of marriage. I think she has misunderstood this freedom as an entitlement to treat you with gross disrespect. I would let her know that you won't be supporting her open and active disrespect and destructive behavior towards you and your family.

If she wants to live like a single woman, then she should not expect the benefits of having a home, husband and family.

She can support herself, right?

p.s. with freedom comes responsibility. She seems to have missed that little part.

Mel

I am glad your posted. I have been made to feel over the years that the very situation I am in tonight is perfectly ok and if I oppose it, I am an over protection, jealous husband. I actually have convinced myself that I am just that. I don't feel good about what is going on tonight, but I have basically been conditioned to think otherwise.

She left for the wedding tonight at 6pm and the wedding was due to start at 7pm. Now this is supposed to be a large crowd for a small church so she did need to leave early but the church is only 15 minutes from our house. Her parents party started at 6pm. She got especially dolled up for a wedding. Very nice suit, y cam under the jacket, showing the cam, hair and makeup just about perfect. I even took pictures in front of the Christmas tree for her. She loves having her picture made. I figured might be extra points.

Anyway, she has not called to see how we are doing, the kids, nothing. It is now 10:30, I have sent her 2 text messages asking how the wedding is going and not response. She does not go 15 minutes without checking her d*mn cell phone so I know she got the messages, but I am sure it will be some excuse like I left it on silent for the wedding and did not check it.

How am I to handle this tonight. Do I let it go. To me this is a LB major. Ind. Behavior isn't it?

If I start something tonight she will say, the changes I am making are not true and she will remind me that this is exactly what she was talking about this week, that she only had history to go by and I am just like I have always been.

Well heck, to me, I just don't think she is caring for me with this behavior. Of course she doesn't care at this point I know. Do I let it go, and just bring it up later if she comes out of fog, etc....?

I really don't know where to go. My youngest son has been asking all night when Mom is going to be home. He is scared to that we are going to divorce. Hoe do I handle that?

It just kills me. I mean I thought we were actually making some progress.

I also noticed something. She had been wearing her hair long and curly the last couple of weeks. I know it is an effort to meet something I said on my EN q about physical appearance.

Her sister cuts and styles her hair. Yesterday after her appointment, I came home and her sister had straightened her hair. My wife started doing that this spring and summer at the beginning of her A. Anyway, she went straight again tonight. I just see her sister (who s my guts and will do about anything IMO to see our marraige end because of what she did) doing the hair thing just to tell her, go ahead, that is what you like, wear it that way.

BTW, it is 10:45 and still no word from her. I am more than ed. This is also what she does at the horse shows. She will go to a show and not call until the next morning so I will not know how long she was out.

WEll Mel,

Just as I posted she called and acted all nicey nice talking about how the long the wedding was and the bride and groom did not even get ot the reception until 9:15.

Then she tells me she stopped by her parents and is just leaving. Am I supposed to be ok with this. I am an unreasonable husband. I could have gone with her to the wedding and the party. I offered, but she said she did not want me going. Said I don't enjoy stuff like that and I make her misserable.

I told her I would have a good time even if I had to fake it. She would not think of it. It was like she got all dolled up, went to a wedding and party all by herself because she would have more fun that way.

I know we are struggling through stuff right now, but don't I have some feelings too?

Allowing her to disrespect you and walk all over you is not a part of Plan A, waiting. It is not a lovebuster to point out that her behavior is extremely cruel and disrespectful and out of line for a married woman. If she wants to act like a single woman, then she should go be one. However, she cannot expect all the benefits of married life if she intends on acting like a single woman.

Confronting her shabby, disrespectful behavior is not a lovebuster. A lovebuster is:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty


Defending yourself from her disrespectful behavior is none of those unless you do it in a way that emcompasses a lovebuster. Plan A does not stand for "appeasement," after all.

Is it ok to handle during the daylight rather that late this evening before bed. One of the things our MC told us is to not discuss heavy things after 10pm so we are able to sleep and not have a restless night sleep. Of course I am probably going to have one either way.

I am sure she is sleeping in another bedroom. I am just frustrated.

waiting, have you read FormerlyGG's story? His w's extreme sense of entitlement is what led to her affairs and their subsequent divorce. He attributes his own behavior as a major contributor to her growing sense of entitlement by not setting appropriate boundaries to protect himself. Her put up with unbelievable cruelty that only increased and grew over the years. Had he put down his foot and protected himself earlier, she might not have grown into such a sad state that he could no longer be married to her.

Your W sounds very much like his in that she feels she is entitled to outrageously disrespectful behavior and then bullies you into silence. And you go along with it!


You have been PLAYED into agreeing to disrespectful treatment and have been manipulated into thinking you are the bad guy if you protest your disrespectful treatment.

Can you imagine if a woman came on here and said her H told her she couldn't go to a family party with him because she was boring as heII and made him miserable? Can you not recognize how cruel that is?

Sounds good.

Yes it can wait til the morning. In fact by sleeping on it you may more effectively deliver the message calmly rather than looking all hurt, desparate, jealous and needy tonight.

Mr. W

Waiting...

This is straight from the WW handbook. You'll get this tomorrow and the next day. Anytime you try to disrupt WS selfish self-absorb lives they will try to flip it around on you. They all say this and there are a ton of examples of responses on here...help me out folks.

Off the top of my head, some of the best responses to this I have seen are you standing up for yourself and saying:

Yes dear, however, the problem is not that my changes are permanent...it's that I have not changed enough. I am changing. My goal is to the best person, father, man and husband I can be...for you, me and the kids.

Yes dear, but I think I need to change some more and I would like your help with this as I try to figure this out...exactly...how or why should I find it acceptible that my wife gets gussied up and go to weddings and party's without me because my company will ruin my wifes evening (or whatever she said)? How would that make you feel????

I know it is hard to come up with this stuff on the fly but try to remember your wife is behaving like a used car salesman trying to manipulate you into buying and accepting her crappy behavior. Everytime you take down one avenue a good saleman will just ignore you and continue down another sales approach. Each time she takes another jab you must be prepared to turn it right back on her. Shine light on the hypocracy (sp?). If you read Dazed most recent posts he has gotten so much better at this in just the last few weeks.


Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

NO, you are not just like you have always been. You no longer agree to sit silently while she treats you with gross disrespect and cruelty. Instead you will object to her disrespectful, shabby treatment. You no longer agree to provide her the rightful benefits of a married woman while she openly rejects that lifestyle and refuses to act as a partner in the marriage.

So, unlike your old behavior where you set no protective boundaries for yourself, you no longer agree to sit silently while she treats you with disrespect.

W, I have said this to many men on this forum over the years and I will say it you: women do not respect men they can run over. And they do not love men they do not respect. Just keep this in mind if you have the urge to allow her run over you. Appeasement will get you nowhere, except the digust track, with most women.

I agree waiting, she is crossing the line into entitlement now.

I believe you have the right to say to her....something along these lines.

Wife, I felt very hurt, disrespected and disturbed that you went to the wedding and party last night with no thoughts of me. While the children and I decorated which is something that we usually do together. What makes you think you are so entitled to do something so hurtful to me & us? This is not what I meant by giving you freedom if that is what you are thinking. I don't like your independant behavior, it is very disrespectful and hurtful to me.

Would this be appropriate communication to her?

And what kind of boundary could he set?

Lady

Thanks guys,

I have been reading the posts on my phone but unable to post back. My wife came home at 11pm all nice and chipper. (We got our new lab puppy today from my brother) and she was all excited about printing some pictures to carry to church tommorow of our new pup. She told me about the wedding and was very talkative and upbeat. At one point I could have forgotten we had issues it seemed so pleasent. We knocked around downstairs and I let the puppy out. When I came back in she is cuddled up in the other bedroom reading and just smiles at me and says in a real chipper voice, good night.

I asked her if she would hold the pup while I showered so she would run around. We I came out all the lights are out and the pup is asleep with her and she says the puppy is having puppy dreams and she is ready for me to get her (the puppy that is) I cut on the bathroom light and I could not help it. I know I looked a bit down. I thought tonight she might, just might, come to our bed. In our entire married life she has only moved out of our bedroom maybe 3 times of which tonight is the 2nd of those 3.

She told me good night and sleep good. I told her to do the same, but I was going downstairs for awhile. She asked me why was I sad. I told her I just could not go to our bedroom at the moment.

I have been down here for 15 minutes now. Of course she has not come down to check on me or anything. Not that I thought she would, but I would have done that for her.

Is it normal for a WS to not want to sleep in the same bed with BS at this stage. Supposedly there is NC. I can't figure out why she would be opposed to sleeping in the same bed.

She is not opposed to me seeing her or anything.

Am I allowing something to take place that I should stand a little firmer on. My sons I can tell are not comfortable which her perching in the extra bedroom.

What should I do if anything? or do I just stay on what I am doing at the moment?

I do plan on talking to her about the wedding and party issue on Sunday. Thanks for the encouragement.

Phew.

Unfortunately I think the bedroom thing is her call at the moment.

The first night my wife was home, she made it very clear I was not going to bed with her. We had an arguement about it. In the end when I went to bed, I just slept on the office floor.

But the next day, I told her I didn't mind if we didn't sleep together in bed but that she was the one who could find somewhere else to sleep, not me.

So that night, she did sleep in the office on a mattress on the floor - not real comfortable.

The next morning, she packed it all away and we have shared our bed again ever since. I wasn't allowed to touch her in any way for a couple of weeks but she never again suggested sleeping apart.

In my case, she was in deep agonising withdrawal. I possibly should have made some concessions because of that but I didn't know anything about that because I hadn't seen this site and my expectation was that having come home she would be desperate to do anything to make up for her selfishness and pain inflicted on me. Uh huh. I also expected that she would hate the OM. Uh huh. So my thinking now is I was probably a bit tough on her at that time and I probably should have been more considerate.

But in my case, we did have SF 2 weeks after she came home even though she had no feelings for me at all. I can only imagine what that act of love from her to me cost her that night.

So on to your case. I would consider her behaviour as independent behaviour. She is making no attempts at all to finish withdrawal and is taking your release of her to mean she can live like she is single while still enjoying all the benefits of living at home. I agree with Mel and others on this.

Maybe it is time to ask her to move out until she is prepared to live as a married woman and make an attempt at reconcilliation. But also, what does SH say about all this?

Waiting....I think she is still trying to falsely prove to you that she is not happy with you, the same reason she went into a PA. She is just trying to make it last longer, not the PA, but your guilt for not making her happy for so many years...which probably isn't true either...but anyway.

I think she is just playing games...by the smile on her face as she said good-night in the other bedroom. She is being hard-headed, not wanting to give in. She loves you though, or she would be gone.

Her time of playing "room-mates" can only last so long before she gets sick of it herself.

Maybe you could say this to her....

Wife....It really hurts me that you sleep alone in the other bedroom. I would really love you to be in our bedroom.
We don't have to do anything at this time or even touch each other if you wouldn't like to, we could just sleep. I don't think it is healthy that our boys watch us sleep in seperate bedrooms, what does that say to them?

Lady

waiting, it is time to have a serious heart to heart with her. You need to ask her why she is sleeping in the other room and if she realizes how hurtful it is to you. It sends a troubling message to your children and is disrespectful to you. Part of radical honesty is telling her how you feel when she is cruel and thoughtless.

I would ask her what she intends on doing to repair the damage in your marriage from the affair. What is her plan? Because the things that she is doing is eroding your feelings for her and harming the marriage. As I said before, with freedom comes responsibility, and she can't expect to have all the benefits of a married woman while she carries on like a single woman with no husband and no children. When you told her she had the "freedom" to do leave, you never meant that you would tolerate the freedom to be hurtful and thoughtless to you.

Waitingonlove

I'm going to advise a little bit of restraint.

If you really feel that you need to have a discussion to 'clear the air' then, before you wade into the discussion (and get tempted into a bunch of DJ's and SD's) have a plan in place for what you're trying to accomplish with the discussion.

You see, I'm worried that your 'unstated goal' of this discussion is to 1.) tell your wife how much she's hurting you and 2.) ferret out of her some apology or plan to make things better for you. I just see this heading towards LB land at an alarming pace.

Consider a few things before you have this discussion:

- Telling her how you feel about her actions last night is likely to make her very defensive because there's really nothing she's going to be able to do to UNDO what's happened. The best time for that discussion would have been BEFORE she went and while she still had a chance to modify her behavior to take into account how you felt about it.

She's probably going to feel as though you are trying very hard to lay a guilt trip on her that she can't escape or that you are lurking around waiting to shout AHA!!! I CAUGHT you doing something WRONG and now I want to punish you for it!!! Now, I'm not saying that IS what you're doing (of course) and I'm certainly not trying to minimize your pain at all. I'm just trying to alert you to what is very likely going to be going on in her head regarding the conversation.

And, let me normalize this for you a little bit. As I've mentioned, I've not dealt with infidelity (so if you want me off the thread because of my lack of experience, just ask <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) but I know that in my relationship if my H or I would do something like that - say go somewhere - even if something was said before hand, then be called to the carpet because of it in much stronger terms (like move out if that's what you're going to be doing) then neither one of us would appreciate it very much and we'd be very defensive. And, this is without infidelity!

Now, this doesn't mean that you can't express your feelings but be very, very careful to keep it about you and not about disrespectful judgements about her. Telling her she's not acting like a 'wife should' is a very disrespectful judgement towards her. Telling her your feelings are hurt and YOU are sad about what happened last night is sharing your feelings. Also, if you have something you'd like her to do to soothe your feelings, then tell her what that is but be very careful not to make it something that's impossible like - her not having gone in the first place or her changing her mind about whether or not she should have gone (DJ territory). It might be her not going to such events in the future if you think she'll agree to that but I think that's unlikely at this point. If I were you, I'd leave it at a boundary where YOU will communicate more strongly things that hurt you BEFORE she does them in the future - ie if this is a 'move out issue' tell her that BEFORE she goes. Give her the information prior to her making the decision.

- After a barrage of your hurt emotions, she's going to be in a defensive state of mind and is NOT going to want to enter into negotiations. Anything you ask of her at that time is likely to come across as a Selfish Demand. Think about it. If the first part of the conversation is "THIS IS HOW YOU HURT ME!!" then you start trying to negotiate, she's going to feel as though you are trying to manipulate her.

True negotiations have both parties as EQUALS in the conversation. If she's feeling 'dressed down' or 'chastised' she can't come into the negotation as an equal party. If you are trying to impose your way on her without allowing her to come to the table as an equal 1.) it won't work and 2.) that's not called negotation and 3.) it's a huge LB.

So, I suggest you pick one goal of the two. Either go into the conversation with the intent of revealing your feelings in a non-judgemental, non-LBing way or go into the conversation with the intent to negotiate better terms. Don't try to do both in the same conversation! I suggest you pick the first one. Clear the air about your emotional state. Then, disengage, and give her TIME to come to the negotiating table with a list of HER WANTS so that when you sit down to figure out what to do about the issues she's equally represented and has some buy in. She might agree to do it your way if you do it all at once, but until she's getting something of equal or greater value to her in her own mind then she probably won't stick to it AND she'll resent you for 'making' her agree to something she never wanted to do in the first place.

As much as you might be "right" in this and what you're asking for, that doesn't mean that imposing that on her or demanding that she do it is going to work now anymore than it has for the last few months.

Just my $.02.

Mys

mys, good ideas! I don't think he should use any lovebusters in his conversation, however, being honest about his feelings and his boundaries are not inherent lovebusters. It is not a selfish demand or a dj to state that going out alone is not condusive to marital recovery.

The goal is not to punish her or exact an apology [after all, he did agree to this!] but to redefine some sadly defined boundaries that have been pushed out of all recognition resulting in an appalling lack of respect. I do agree that this should have been addressed before she went out alone, but it wasn't. Unfortunately, I think he has contributed to her sense of entitlement by sitting silent while she treated him disrespectfully.

Being honest about his feelings and boundaries are of vital importance! In fact, it's a LB (dishonesty) NOT to be honest.

But, his boundaries can only be about HIS behavior. His boundaries can't be about what SHE DOES because he has no control over what she does. He needs to decide what types of actions he wants to take when <whatever> happens. But, he can never decide for her what actions she gets to take (wouldn't it be nice if he could? Ah well.).


No, but it's also not going to go anywhere. At worst, it's trying to 'educate' her which can be a lovebuster in it's own way. At best, it's just a vague statement. The only way it becomes NOT vague is to send it INTO SD territory by saying "... and therefore you SHOULDN'T... " which isn't much help.

Perhaps a better way to frame it would be something like: I'm not going to be able to recover in this marriage if you continue to go out alone. So, if that's what you choose to do, then I'm going to choose to <actions> in order to protect my <feelings, love for you>.

Make it about him, his feelings and HIS ACTIONS.


I agree. It's just that I don't see that he has those boundaries clearly defined going into the conversation (maybe I'm wrong) and that worries me a bit. It's an emotional conversation. The best strategy is to have what he wants to accomplish clearly defined FIRST rather than wading in unprepared - which is just tempting LB's. (I'm not saying that to cast aspersions on you, waitingonlove, ANYONE would have that problem.. it's just being human.)


Yep, and there's not use trying to lock the barn door after it's all ready burned down. Learn from it and move on...


.. by choosing not to remain silent anymore in the future.

Mys

Mel, BK and Lady,

I have read all your posts and 24 hours from last night the pain is less. Lady I do think I need to let her know what I think about her sleeping in the other bedroom for our boys sake. I don't think it will make a difference to her though.

She has maintained that I have been controlling and overprotective. I really do not see that. I do see that over the years I have been brow beated into thinkng that I am controlling and overprotective, when in fact, I have been responding (probably with LB techniques) to her independent behavior. That has been a negative on our relationship and probably is why I have been so resentful of her horse show hobby. I saw it as independent behavior amoung other things.

I never saw myself as being (pardon me lady's) henpecked but I have been. That has probably made me feel less than a man and angry and then I would LB.

I have to let her know but in a way that is not LBing. I plan on studing the last several posts to me quit a bit to learn new techniques in communication with her.

Thanks.

Myschae

I really do appreciate your contribution this morning. I read all the posts early this morning but have been unable to repsond until now.

1st let me say. Please do not leave my thread. Your information has been very helpful. Reading between you and Mel has given me some new insight.

I am afraid I would have entered into DJ had I said something last night. I do need o learn to keep it about me and my hurt rather than her.

I should have said something before. I have just been conditioned to be afraid to tell her the truth about how I feel because I have come to believe something is wrong with my feelings all along. When I look back at her fathers behavior over the years with how he treated his wife, it is identical to my wifes. And in fact his wifes ( MY MIL) would do exactly like me. Not say anything before, but gripe later about it and LB to my FIL.

My gosh, I wish I learned all this before now. There should be a course that we should take before marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BK,

Your the best. I realize there is probably nothing I can do about her sleeping in the other bedroom, but I do think it is a bad idea for the boys to see.

The most important comment you made to me was what would SH say. I plan on asking him on my next appointment.

Tonight she is pretty withdrawn and quit. I wish everyone could see, but she lays down in our chair across the den and basically hides behind a pillow. I can't see her face at all the way she is lying. It is like she wants to be seperate but together.

We are in the same room bu not communicating at all. That is why I am on the laptop. She is not even aware I am typing and reading. I am so sad that we living like this.

Ladysheep,

Do you really think she will come around? Do you really think she loves me and is just "paying me back"?

I considered all that was mentioned to me this weekend about what I should tell her, not tell her, avoid doing and all. It was a lot to consider and non of it seemed easy. Well the easy thing would have been to do nothing, but that would have accomplished absolutely nothing at all.

I did not mention anything during the day at all. Timing was either not right as we were finishing our tree or the kids were around.

Last night as we were getting ready to go to bed my wife passed through the bedroom and said good night as she walked past the bed. I asked her to come back in so I could talk to her. She sat down on the bed. I took a deep breath and just started. I asked her if she was sleeping in the other bedroom and she said yes. I told her I was very hurt by that and was also concerned at what it was teaching our sons. I told her that my Grandmother and Grandfather slept in different bedrooms and as a child that was very disturbing to me and I am sure our children feel the same way.

I asked her how long she thought she was going to do it. She said she did not know and did not have a time table but she needed to get some sleep. I told her I understood but what was it about sleeping in bed with me that made her not sleep. I told her I did not want anything or even to touch her, but I was just wondering. She said it was difficult because she would lay there and think about us and feel guilty and not sleep. By being in the other room she did not think about it as is able to sleep. I don't expect tonight to be much different. I told her I was not looking forward to going out of town Tuesday night till Sunday. She asked why and I told her I would prefer to stay here and work on our marriage but I had to go. (It is a hunting trip out west with 3 other guys and I am kinda in charge of it and can't miss it) She said she understood.

I told her just remember I am not asking or telling her what to do, I just wanted to let her know I was hurt and concerned about the kids. She said she did not want to hurt me and again said she was not mad at me anymore. I told her I was glad she was not mad. We said good night and she asked if I wanted the light out. I told her no, I was going to read and not sleep for a little while. She walked on the other side of the bed and reached to give me a hug. It was more of a comforting hug she offered, nothing romantic, but it did feel good. No kissing or talking just a hug. It felt good to have some physical touch. We said good night again and she left the room.

This morning I got up to wake the boys and take care of the puppy and get breakfast ready. When I came back upstairs she was in our bed. I believe it was more because our oldest son uses that bedroom to get ready in the morning, but she was in the bed. I brought the puppy upstairs and in bed with us. We talked about the puppy for a little while and she asked me if I wanted her to hold the pup while I showered.

After that the morning was pretty routine. No relationship talk. No affection, but civil and talkative sort of. I took the kids to school and drove to the office.

She is here now and we both are just doing what we do at work.

I know the above does not mean much, but at least it is something. I hope while I am gone she will have some things to think about.

I just had 2 conversations with wife. The last one was the most gut wrenching.

1st Conv: She wanted to have relationship talk again and to save space and fewer details, it was WS Babble mostly. Said she was still miserable, unhappy, blah blah blah. I felt like Peppermint Patty at school listening to it, I have heard it so much. I Reverse Babble with her. I am actually starting to get the hang of it. It is amazing to see her reaction. It is like this look of "what the heck just happened here" from her. I think she expects me to cry, be sad, beg or something.

You will love this one. She said and I quote, "I don't think God ever intended on anyone living like this everyday" (duh) My response was and I quote, "Your right, God never intended on anyone living like this". Silence for about 30 seconds.

She asked about Recreational Ques. that SH wanted us to complete. I then directed her to the website and she pulled it up and printed it and started completing it. Then she talked some more. She said she did not intend on doing any of it. I asked her was she know going to do anything the rest of her life. I felt like she would. She said well obviously she would do something for fun, but she just could not see us doing anything together. She said we did not do anything all weekend together. I then asked her whose fault was that. I am willing anytime to do something. She smarted off and said that "weaving and canasta" were hardly substitutes for horse shows. I did not respond at all.

She then acknowledged she is not putting anything into our relationship. She said she did not want to do anything with me. I told her that hurt and I knew that. It hurt me when she did not want me to go to the wedding Saturday or her parents party. She said she was sorry and was not trying to hurt me. I told her she is not trying to avoid it either.

She told me she didn't think I wanted a wife that was this miserable everyday. I told her she was right and one more thing, I did not intend of having a wife long term that was this way. (her reply and expression was priceless) She said " I don't blame you."
She said what I told her Friday for powerful. What I told her is it was her decision to make. I had already made mine. Mine was to work on the marriage. She said she knew she was not working on anything and was not. She says the way she sees it is she has 3 options. Choose to not be unhappy by working on the marriage and trying to have feelings, Choose to stay unhappy, not work on the marriage and fake it and stay married or Choose to not work on the marriage and leave. I said "Yep, you have choices."

That was pretty much the end of the conversation. She went about completing the rest of the form.

Then a few minutes later as she was leaving my office, she came in shut the door and wanted to have relationship talk again. Once again, Blah, Blah Blah, nothing really significant until she was about to leave.

She almost walked out and then turned around and came back in and said she needed to be honest with me about something and not hold it in anymore. I asked her what, She told me she went to see an Attorney about 3 weeks ago. I asked her who and it was someone she found on the Internet and out of town. I asked her why out of town. "This is very important too me, let me know what you think thought"

She said it would have been all over town if she went to someone local and she did not want to do that in case we worked things out. HUMMMM? Very interesting.

I asked her how she felt about it and how much did it cost her. She said it made her sick to her stomach and sad and she did not feel good about it at all. I asked her why she went and she said she wanted to know how the process went. She also said that she thought it was only fair for me to know that she had thought about that and filing for divorce. I told her I was not surprised by that, but I am surprised about where she went to someone she did not know. She told me the atty told her the process about the Sheriff serving the papers and all. She did not want anything like that. She also said she told him she had a brother and sister that went through and divorce and had to go to court and have a judge decide everything and she hoped that we could work those things out without court. The attorney told her that was a pipe dream and just not possible and would most likely not happen. ( I told her good, he is right, I don't do divorce, I do marriage and she can put that in her peace pipe and smoke on it awhile) She seemed disappointed but surprised. I guess she thought she would be able to p*****y whip me into what she wanted. (sorry Lady's, my apology for previous statement <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I told her that I was glad she was honest with me. (She had said she knew she should tell me if we are going to work things out by being honest) ( On one hand she is saying she does not want to try and on the other hand she makes a statement like that and completes a questionnaire) I reminded her it is her choice to make, not mine, I have made my choice. She said she did not want to be the one that quit and then she caught herself and said, but I guess that is what I am doing. Standing flatfooted and being stubborn. I did tell her while I was glad she told me that her timing stinks. She seems to always bring stuff up and the worst time. I stand to go out of town for the week and she lays this brick on me. I tell her this and she slumps and lowers her head and says she did not think about that and was very sorry. She did not mean to do that and hurt me and have bad timing. I just said "whatever", more slumping and head lowering.

She said, it is my choice to make. (babble but potentially useful info also) I said, It is your choice to make. (reverse babble. that one was easy)

She said, "I guess I just need an internal overhaul inside". I said, "I won't touch that statement with a 10 foot pole" She said, oh yea, that would be stupid, sorry about that.

Then she got up and left and as she was walking out the door, she said, Hey, one positive. She did not cry and I did not either. I said yep., that is a positive.

That is my story for today so far. Is this progress that she told me?

What do you vets think?

I really need some good feedback for tonight and before I leave?

Oh yea, One thing I left out and this is very painful to admit, but I have come to the conclusion the my WW is dishonest and a liar. No other way to put it. I can hear you guys laughing at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> now, go ahead, I can take the bwahauhahahhha's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but it is like I have become a new person at accepting things. Before I knew it but just would convince myself otherwise, that she is my soul mate, best friend, total confidant, etc.....

It may have been true at one point, but now, it is not true. I would like to think that somewhere inside her an honest person lives, but at the moment, I can't see it. Hey, I sound like her now. Get it, at the moment I can't see it. That was she says about us.

Also, I am fully prepared to find out later that NC has been broken and the EA/PA was more than kissing and hand holding. I have nothing to prove otherwise, but it would not surprise me in the least at this point. Also, BTW, when she spilled the beans about wanting to come clean on the attorney thing I asked her several times, was there anything else she wanted to come clean about or get off her chest. She immediately told me no she has not contacted anyone, this is not about anybody else, blah blah blah. I said, OK are your sure there is nothing else. She said no again and she knew I was referring to the sex question.

It just pains me to have to admit, but I guess that is healthy for me.

Wow, that was an awesome breakthrough! Now we know what she was hiding. I really felt that she was keeping some secret from you and I bet this is it. This is good news. You can deal with the truth, but when you don't know what she is thinking, it is hopeless.

You did VERY GOOD by reinforcing to her that you WILL NOT make it easy for her to divorce you.

Now, I think you should focus on changing this terrible image she has of you. She views you as a mean ole daddy whose mission in life is to spoil her fun. I think you have started to change this image by reminding her that she is not a kid but a grown woman who is fully responsible for her own choices.

I think this is one of the more promising developments I have seen so far, waiting. She is confused and on the fence, but she is leaning over towards you as you can see. She says one thing out of one side of her mouth and then says the opposite.

I would reemphasize to her how very hurtful it is for her to sleep in the guest room.

Thanks Mel,

I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully that is the only thing she is holding back, but like I said, I am trying my best to be prepared for more.

I will say that tonight about the other bedroom. I leave to go out of town tommorow evening. Hopefully there will be a hug or something. If it happens I will try and update you guys from the airport tommorow evening.

I hope she has fun while I am gone being taxi driver and single parent while I am gone. Hopefully everything will be hectic for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Something I am thinking about but not sure I should do.

I am seriously thinking about telling her something like this statement.

I am going out of town tommorow night, and will be back Sunday. I am going to tell her I want to talk to the boys while I am gone, but I don't know if I want to talk to her because it is too painful.

Also, knowing this is Christmas time and she may be thinking, (I need to at least gut it out till after Christmas), I am thinking about telling her to either be ready to move out when I get back from my trip Sunday or be committed to working on the marriage because right now her not staying is hurting me and the kids way too much.

I can take it(her behavior) at the moment and I have not lost love for her, in fact I still love her very much, but I am developing resentment at the moment and I know that is the precusor to lost love feelings.

Is it time for Plan B is what I am thinking? I am not sure. I know I may be jumping the gun a bit with the latest developments but I was wondering if anyone thought the trip (time alone to think things through) combined with the Holidays as a crowbar.

Is this a gamble and not a plan B. I only want to do a MB plan. I am also conserned about not doing something SH would recommend but I would love to have your thoughts.

My thoughts are this. Do I appear to her tp be someone sure of myself? Is that appealing to her? I am not controlling her. She has been given a choice even though I am giving her a timetable. One thing is for sure. She is not sure of herself or she would have jumped off the fence and left a long time ago.

Would taking the deal off the table off the table work? Deal being working on our marriage.

I am just seeking some guidence. Not sure I am ready for this or even if the timing is right, but I am curious as to what others have to say.

I believe it was more because our oldest son uses that bedroom to get ready in the morning, but she was in the bed.

Also, BTW, when she spilled the beans about wanting to come clean on the attorney thing I asked her several times, was there anything else she wanted to come clean about or get off her chest. She immediately told me no she has not contacted anyone, this is not about anybody else, blah blah blah. I said, OK are your sure there is nothing else. She said no again and she knew I was referring to the sex question.


She said she did not want to be the one that quit and then she caught herself and said, but I guess that is what I am doing. Standing flatfooted and being stubborn. I did tell her while I was glad she told me that her timing stinks.

Yes...I agree these are some great breakthroughs waiting, but you're right, the timing stinks, it shoulda been sooner.
But...it just had to be today.

And her doing the questionaire was good too!

I wouldn't think of plan B yet. See what she is like when you get home.

Have a good work trip, enjoy it while you can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lady

I would not do this. A good Plan A is critical to a successful Plan B and you are not yet there. First off, she might take you up on it and you are not at the point where you need to go into Plan B yet. You don't want her to take you up on that right now when she is still so detached. You must stay in Plan A a little while longer.

I know you don't see it, waiting, but some really good things are happening here in the way you communicate with each other. She has run over you on certain things and manipulated you with guilt on others. She then blamed you for her choices. That dynamic needs to be allowed to change because I think it is what has led to alot of conflict in your marriage. I see her changing, I see you putting down boundaries and it is all very new.


I don't believe this. Do you really mean this or are you saying it to get a reaction?

Do not Plan B until SH tells you it is time. From my observations he will tell you to continue Plan A until you are absolutely ready and convinced yourself it is time for Plan B. Besides with the above statement I think she is finally getting it...that recovery is a choice...that Love is a verb. Combine her statement above with this statement:


And I think you've got her heading in the right direction...finally. She is understanding that for it to work both parties have to "try" and she is internalizing that she is the "quiter" here. She can see your calmness...that you are no longer trying to force or "guilt" recovery. It's here choice...her time to sh|t or get off the pot!!!


You are in Plan A meeting her top 3 needs whenever and however you can. I presume communication is a top need as well as or in the alternative honesty. You should not hammer her/guilt her for ever communicating with you...despite the timing. There is no time like the present for all communication. When a WW wants/needs to talk you must be ready to listen. Catch her internal withdrawal roller coaster whenever and whereever it's ready to work out some things with you. Don't try to concentrate to much on the reverse babble. Sometimes the best reverse babble is simple...like "yes, dear that's interesting" or "mmmmm, I'll have to think about that" then turn the conversation back to her so she can babble some more. The more she talks and you actively listen the more Love Bank deposits you make...regardless of the quality of the information exchanged.

BTW, the information about seeing an attorney was not that shocking...plenty of WW and BS seek attorney counsel to figure out their positions. I was a BS (and I am an attorney - albeit tax attorney) and I went to a divorce attorney a couple days after D-Day just to get a handle on my position. It would be interesting to know if she retained him with a deposit, paid for the consultation or just got a 1 hour free consultation. If she retained him/her than she may have been preparing documents. But it is really irrelevant to your attempts to recover your marriage. It is her choice that you can't control so forget about it.



I've used this statement in the past and it is completely inappropriate for a marital relationship. Very disrespectful. It was a LB for sure. You were beating her down as a follow up to punishing her for her so-called bad timing. I am glad you told her you appreciated the honesty but the information obviously got under your skin and you REACTED to the information. Try to keep your emotions under control. Remember to...ACT, DON'T REACT. Plan A.

I hope you can possible have some good late night phone calls with your wife while you are out of town. Though hunting with the guys might not facilitate that. Sometimes the phone can give the WW some distance and safety to open up a little. You can try. However, really try to enjoy yourself. You need a break from this and the MB plan is very much about your own personal recovery. What better way for you to recharge you brain than by relaxing and sharing time with friends. You can't change anything at home so have fun and make certain WW does not think you spent the whole week analyzing your marriage. As a forewarning...Don't blame her for ruining your weekend...that would be your choice.

Mr. Wondering

Lady

Thanks so much for your thoughts. After reading your post along with Mel and Mr. Wonderings I aggree that I am not ready for Plan B and I did not feel good about doing it if I had recieved positive feedback on it. I am very glad she did the questionaire.

Thanks for taking the time to let me know what you thought again.

WOL

BTW,

You are not planning on discussing your situation with your buddies are you????

I know I talked to way to many people about my problem last spring but mostly that was cause I felt so alone (I failed to post here and get support/advice).

I suggest you let your friends be your friends. They have no power to change your situation and contact with them may be compromised in the future as your recommited wife may feel uncomfortable around them.

Let us be your support for now.

Mr. Wondering (not Wonderings) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel ,

You are so right. After I wrote this and had time to think about it, I was wanting to take control and "show her" the new self confident self, but that was the wrong way to do it that could have backfired and I think she might have taken me up on it.

She has blamed me for her choices and I have LB'd because I did not give her upfront information prior to her doing something that I knew was going to be a LB for me. I was afraid of upsetting the apple cart. I am doing much better. Tonight as I was packing I came upstairs and she had already gone to bed without telling me goodnight. I went in the guest bedroom and she was in there trying to sleep.

I asked her if she was sleeping in here (guest bedroom). She said yes. I told her that was very hurtful for me. She said she was sorry. I said ok, good night and started to walk out of the bedroom. I turned and told her, you know I love you. (Nothing needy, just to reassure her)

As I was leaving the room she called my name and asked me to come over to the bed. As I got close to the bed she opened her arms and said, will I come here and give her a hug. I leaned over the bed and she hugged me at length. Rubbed my back and my hair and kissed me on the jaw and I kissed her on the hair. She kinda chuckled, rubbed my shoulder and called me scruffy and my face tickled her. (I have not shaved for my trip for several days, I is 18 below zero where I am going in South Dakota). Any, I hugged her one final time told her I love her one more time and then told her good night and walked out.



Mel you are right. I was not saying it for a reaction out of you guys or her. After thinking about it, I guess it was more venting outload to someone about how I felt at the time. You know, kinda like, "ok, so you don't want to have anything to do with me.. I'll show you. I don't want to have anything with you"

You got me. Thank goodness I vented here.

Mel, I read these post downstairs on my phone while I was packing and I nearly hit the floor weeping. Not and sadness but overwhelmed at how much total strangers care on this board for each other. I feel I have so many friends that I don't know and may never know, but friends I have been more transparent with than anyone ever, except God. It is very freeing to be able to do that.

I truely thank God for you guys and MB and what it stands for. Even if my marriage does not work out, I can't see leaving this community. In fact, if my marriage works out, I have already told my wife, I will never stop learning here. This has been a life changing experiance for me. A way of life change. Like someone that finally changes their eating for good.

Thank you so much for your help.

Well I don't plan on discussing it with them while I am gone, but one of them is my brother who knows and the other is my very best friend who knows. The other guy is a friend in our Sunday School class. I do not plan on mentioning it to him or anyone else. I have a small circle of friends I have talked to. This has been the best place for me. See my post above this to Mel. It is meant for everyone here. You guys have meant the world to me.

Total strangers giving their heart and efforts to each other at the most trying times for most.

BTW, I am not doing what I asked about earliers. I plan on staying with Plan A.

Thanks for the reminder about DJ and the guilt thing. I had never viewed the "whatever" comment like that before.

I will be careful of how much R. babble I do also. Thanks for the reassuring comments above.

Also, see my notes on my responce to Mel. Tonight as we are going to bed there was another small breakthrough. Not much, but there was one.

Thanks again.

aaaaaaaaaargh! I just wrote a long post and lost it. grrrrrr

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I very much understand your gratitude about this forum, waiting. I feel exactly the same and know that my marriage would not be what it is today without the grace of God and the truly fabulous guidance on this forum. They taught me a whole new way of life! I would not have such a wonderful, joyful marriage had I not found Marriage Builders and I mean that sincerely. I am very glad that you found it too and have similar hopes for your marriage.

I know you might find that hard to believe right now, but there really is good progress in your situation. Today was a GOOD DAY, waiting, in that your W told you her secret. Even though it was painful, she felt open enough to share this and you were honest with her about your feelings. That is a huge step forward!

When are you leaving to go hunting? Where to and what are you hunting for? My son, who goes to college up in Michigan caught his first deer a few weeks ago. It is an 8 point buck. He just sent him's momma [ME!] a picture tonight: Chris' deer

Did you hesitate to say he "shot" his first deer because:

1. You're turning into a softy on gun ownership and/or use;
2. He really just hit it with his TRUCK;
3. He really got his first girlfriend (you meant he caught his first "dear") and the picture is superflous;
4. He really "caught it" with his bare hand - quite impressive!!!

Really it is a beautiful MICHIGAN buck. Traverse Area???

Have a wonderful evening, y'all!

Mr. Wondering

I sure hope so. Here's for moving forward.

I wingshoot and big game. I am leaving tommorow night. Tuesday for the airport. We are going to a small town in South Dakota called Wecota. Population 14. No kidding. We have a picture of the sign. We are going to shoot pheasant and hopefully some grouse also. The grouse are rather elusive. Last year the owner of the farm got a very nice 10 point buck we had been watching a couple of days.

It is extremely cold there this year. 18 below zero today F. Minus 33 wind chill.

That is an awesome buck you son got. Nice weather too. I live in North GA and would love to get to hunt deer in the snow. Thanks for the pics. Tell your son congrats.

Lab pup and I are going to bed. My dogs are soooo sweet. 8 yr old Lab is lying in from of wood stove warming asleep and new pup "Kasey" is asleep with her head on the keyboard in my lap. BTW my older labs name is "Sunni".

Hey Waiting;

My wife's grandmother is from Ellijay, GA. Probably about your neighborhood. We live in Michigan right now but will be moving to the Canton, GA area next spring/summer once we sell our home here. My wife has endured 10 years in the Michigan tundra. Not quite as cold as South Dakota but cold enough.

Mr. Wondering

Mr.Wondering

It is a small world. My wife and I in the spring prior to A of course were looking for vacation/rental investment cabin in Ellijay. That is about an hour from here but we are only 15 miles / 20 minutes from Canton. In fact my best friends wife is from Canton. He mother passed away a couple of weeks ago. I think I even mentioned the funeral or something in my thread sometime back.

Man it is a small world. I have never been to Michigan but I have heard storys that winters are horendous there. Welcome to God's country down here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WW is going to IC today by herself. We talked about todays session and if I could go because of work and all I have to do to get ready to leave town. (she was perfectly willing to go with me) I decided to stay and work. It takes 3 hrs there and back plus the session, so a big chunk of my day would be gone. She suggested. I think as a matter of kindness, not to keep me away.

Anyway, she is going by herself. She seemed in a good mood and the last thing she told me when she left was have a good day and I will call you when I leave the appointment.

My reason for posting this info is to just ask for prayer support about our sitch especially today as I will not be back until Sunday and I am hoping that God will use this time to soften her heart.

We all watched Chasing Christmas last night on TV and it seemed to be a fun evening with the family. We all laughed a bit. I am hoping as days go by, she will see the importance of trying and working things out.

I hope our MC today encourages her to stay. I know she will encourage her to take ownership of her problems and decisions.

Here's to Hope.

Thanks in advance.

WHATEVER!!


Yes, it was in Traverse. He tells me this is a really good deer because he weighs 200 lbs! POOR DEER!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I showed the pic to my oldest son this morning. He thought it was awesome. What is your son doing in Michigan? Not that there is anything wrong with Michigan mind you. Just curious. School or hunting? Aren't you from Tex Mel?

Tell your son I said thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My son, although a PURE BLOOD TEXICAN, was raised in Michigan and goes to college up there. I moved back down here to Texas in 2000 and he stayed with his father and goes to college. His father is an avid outdoorsman who taught Chris how to hunt and fish.

Well now that makes sense. He is a fine looking young man. I know you are proud of him. BTW are you a Longhorn fan? If so, Hook'em Horns at the Rose Bowl !!! Actually I am an Aggie Fan but anybody but USC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel<---------RED RAIDER!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nice offense. Go Red Raiders !!! How is the basketball team looking this year?

I am back from my few days of being gone and trying to get back up to speed on were everyone is on there sitch and also mine. Wife greated me outside with smiles, but no affection. I called her once a day at the end of the day and talked but did no beg, at pathetic or anything.

I did spend time praying for my marriage. I told her I love them (meaing her and the kids). She said the preverbial "u 2 "

I am not sure how the sleeping arrangements will go tonight. I hope she is in bed with me. If not I will not LB but let her know I am disappionted.

She was very talkative and I was sure to listen carefully to wat she said. She was talking about teaching our SS class and how well that went.

I have a morning appointment with Steve Harley. Hopefully that will go well.

Good to be back.

Hi Waiting, I hope you had a nice few days away. I've continued to follow your story but just don't seem to have much to add at the moment - others seem to be more experienced at the stage you are dealing with. God bless you. I am thinking about you and wish you all the best. God bless you & your wife & marriage.

I got another nice surprise over the weekend - my wife visited a mutual friend who knows our situation and also the OM. I had heard her telling this friend on the phone when she first came home to me that "It was the best time and the darkest time of her life" (referring to the affair. She told me on the weekend she was talking again with the friend and said she used to think the above but now she just thinks of it as the blackest darkest time of her life. That's progress. I know your wife will come around too.

Thanks BK, I know our sitch has kinda gone into that lull before the storm so everything is pretty much slow moving on new info.

I did have a morning appointment with SH today and that went well although my wfie will not talk to him anymore. At least not now.

I had a pretty upsetting moment occur today that I will post a little later as soon as I finish it. It involves my FIL and a commment my wife made about something I said about her affair.

Thanks for checking in and I hope yours continues to go well. (your marriage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Sounds like you guys are doing well. I certianly hope ours will soon. God's speed and blessing to you.

WOL

Welcome back

Shoot anything????

Mr. Wondering

Yes, limited out on pheasant. It was awesome and the Guys wife cooks up some of the best meals for us. It was some of the most physically challenging hunting I have ever done. Cold, Windy, temps at single digits and wind chill well below freezing, walking in deep snow, but the birds were incredible.

South Dakota had a fantastic year for birds.

It is good to be back.

Just as it seemed all was going well today, we had a pretty decent blow up. We were at work and I walked into her office because we had been trying to get with each other on something this morning and kept having interruptions. Normal stuff.

While I was in her office she was finishing a conversation she was having with her Dad. After she got off the phone she said " sorry about that but, (so and so) wanted to know why my Dad moved his horses from his trainer that he had been with for quite awhile." I then asked her who he moved his horse training to.

You guessed it. My FIL who knows about the EA/PA (albeit not sexual and over according to my WW) moved all his horses in training to the OM's barn. According to my WW she told me back on d-day that her dad had a few horse there already. I don't recall that but it was on d-day and I was so upset I am sure I don't remember it. Anyway, today was realization for me on that accord, but FIL moved additional (as in all) of his horses to the creep that was trying to steal my wife.

I was obviously incensed about it and told my wife that I felt like that was a slap in the face to me and showed no concern at all for me. I have not really spoken to my FIL or MIL since my wife went to her parents and "told all".

They have not called me to talk to me. In fact my birthday came and went without a phone call. Both my MIL and FIL no showed on a 20 yr history of having Thanksgiving at our house. Supposedly because of a riff between my MIL and my mom. I have felt it was that my wife has not been totally truthful about all her issues of being a WS. I think she (my wife) went light on the issues about her and her affair and heavy on rewritten history stuff. Kinda like, she made a mistake but it is understandable considering the years of anguish I have caused my wife.

Barfffffff, is what I want to say to that if that happened. While I am far from perfect, I am not a bad person or husband either. In fact I was meeting needs she had, just not enough of the right ones and too many of the lesser ones and the occasional LB. I know that now, but then did not.

Anyway I told my wife that it hurt me and I asked if she was totally honest with her parents about her affair? That is were the real problem began.

She is furious with me by calling her EA/PA an affair. She said that she does not see it as such, blah, blah, blah. She told her parents about the phone calls, and kissing but she does not call it an affair.

Bull crap !!! is what it is. If I can admit it she should also. She says she takes responsiblity for her poor decisions but she will not call it what it is.

I asked her; Well then what do you call it? Her response was an "inappropriate relationship". She says that the word affairs makes her and everyone else that hears it think of a sexual affair.

So we continued; She tells me she is just going to her attorney and have him draw up the papers and proceed with a divorce because she can't keep having me refer to it and throw it in her face as an affair. (I am not doing any mentioning of it at all and in the past the only thing I would bring up was the NC issue which I have been in stealth mode for almost 2 weeks.)

We talked, I told her go ahead and she can just tell the kids why she is doing what she is doing. She barked back she will and we had a few more exchanges of verbal banter. No yelling or fussing, just banter.

I asked her if she could not see some changes in me and she admitted she could, but she has "seen" that before. I told her I am learning a new way of dealing with Love and what it truly is. I told her I was going to keep on working on me.

She then said this:

" I would really like to be able to say that we will put all this behind us and go forward and work on a great marriage, but right now that is not how I feel".

She said she really hates it that I let it get to this point before I started making these changes instead of waiting for her heart to become like stone to me. I told her I wished I had but I can only live in the present and for the future.

I can't do anything about the past.

She wanted to tell me that my FIL's decision had nothing to do with us. I told her I agreed but I still am hurt by it, but he has hurt me in the past and this is not different. She says that the horses in training should not be an issue because she can't go to shows anymore. I told her that I was only concerned about our marriage and nothing else, but I was still hurt that my FIL would be so callus and uncaring as to do that.

What is it I am to do. How the h*ll to you handle this when her family seems apathetic at best. The last time my WW and I went through MCing her mother was in my office crying and telling me she did not understand what was wrong with her daughter, she knew better, I was a good husband, father, blah, blah, blah. My FIL felt pretty much the same minus the crying last time.

Now things are different. I don't know what support is there from them.

I don't think my WW is about to go ahead with her threat of going to the attorney. I think it was more am Angry Outburst.

I know I continue to Plan A but I really tire of this sort of relationship. I just long for the day we can have some positive inertia that not only I can see but others can see as well.

Any thoughts out there?

You need to have a chat with your in-laws, waiting. Go over and have a man to man talk with your FIL and make sure your MIL hears the full story. This is exactly the reason why exposure should always come from the BS and never the WS. I will lay you money she told them some sob story with her starring as the victim and you as the villian. It is also very probable that she is contacting the OM via your in-laws because they have been lied to about the true nature of this relationship.

For your FIL to do business with the OM who was trying to destroy his D's family is unthinkable. And he very likely does not know the truth. You need to correct that NOW. And tell them the truth, that is was AN AFFAIR. Your in-laws have been spun into believing you are a demon.

And you did the right thing in not helping her call an affair something else. Good grief. It was an affair.

Nor are you obliged to hide it from her. Tell her that in order for your marriage to recover there will have to be LOTS of talk about her affair until you recover. That is HOW you recover, w. That will take anywhere from 12 to 24 months.

Mel

I don't disagree with you at all. In fact I have felt like I needed to talk to them but they are so mad about the issue between my Mom and her Mom and the petty arguement they had that turned into a huge moutain of hurt feelings, I am not sure they would sit still long enough for me to talk to them.

Nor would my FIL who is about as stubborn, mean spirited person when he sets his mind to it that you can ever hope to meet. In fact he is the controlling one and I would not put it past him to want to see our marriage bust up anyway so he and his daughter can go do their thing (horse shows) together. I hope that is not the case, but I feel like that is they what he is doing. He will avoid me at all costs now. We used to be very close, but not anymore. It is almost like my FIL has been feed the same rewritten history crap about me that she told the OM. Sure I am not perfect but things are blown up to be much more than they really are. I am not sure I am equipped to work on my wifes relationship with me and my inlaws.

My relationship with my inlaws was fine until they gave in to their other daughter and husband (OM) on their marraige born out of an affair and decided he would no longer hold a line with her and I would, then I became the bad guy over a lot of other issues.

I just don't know if it would do any good. If fact it might just be there straw that breaks the camels back to make my wife want to leave.

Mel,

I know it walks like a duck and talks like a duck but she doesn't. (affair) How does she ever get to see it this way? What has to happen?

Is it normal for her to have her head in the sand and not call it such. I am sure she does not want to talk about it because it makes her realize what a terrible thing it was that she did.

Heck, I can't even get her to consider MB anymore much less aggree on a plan and what it is called.

You know, w, she already says she wants to leave. That should not be a reason to avoid a chat with your FIL. Your FIL is doing business with the OM not knowing that his D had an affair with this man. And is probably facilitating an affair without even knowing it. Do you imagine that your in-laws would have any reason to prevent her from contacting him over there?

I think they very much need to know the truth. That exposure might just wake your wife up somewhat.

What happened is that she is deep in a fogland and wants very much to pretend like it never happened. What bothers me is that she is behaving like someone who is IN an affair, W. All the signs are here. The hostility, the sleeping in another room, the threats when you bring it up. This does not even sound like withdrawal, but someone who is in an affair.

She does not resemble someone who is remorseful, much less someone who is in withdrawal.

Why am I getting a sense here that WW wants you to be estranged from her parents? Could I be reading that correctly?

Mel,

Don't get me wrong. I truely believe my WW told them about the "inappropriate relationship" phone calls, kissing and all, but I really think just as she does that FIL and possibly MIL does not see it as an affair either.

I mean it is like SH said. When I say things to my wife she can't hear them because they are coming from my lips. I am thinking the same is true with my FIL and possibly MIL. They want to believe it was just a another mistake their daughter made and BTW, this is the 2nd time it has happened that they know about and I must surely be this horrible controlling demanding jelous husband. I just don't think my FIL gives a rip at all.

A couple of years ago we thought he was in the beginnings of Alseimers (spelling?) (his mother had it) but I thought it was depression over business matters and his other daughters horrible divorce and sitch. Now I think he has just become mad and spiteful at the world. Even other people have seen that in him.

I know, but I have no evidence at all. I am not around her every waking moment but the OM is 3 or 4 hours from our town. She has not gone to a horse show and I have not been able to find any evidence of A. In fact she seems to have softened her edge somewhat.

You could be. I know she does not want me to approach them about our "problems" because she thinks that would make the family sitch even worse if we did have a chance of working things out. We have a big Christmas Eve at her parents coming up. Much like our Thanksgiving that we have always done. Only, I am not boycotting if you know what I mean.

w, how does she feel this would make the family sitch worse?

Mel,

Basically she knows her Dad is a stubborn man and if we work things out he will be ok with me and act like he is ok with me as long as it is something she wants, but if I go to him and try to tell him about our issues and be sure he is clear she knows he will bow his back and it will be something he will hold against me from now own making our estrangement from her parents permenant.

I remember a few years back her Dad did something I did not like and he found out about my disapproval with it, he basically blessed me out for my opinion and he said he did not care and if I didn't like it I could lump it.

My wife was torn to pieces about this. She was upset, cried, family will never be the same, etc....... She really overreacted in my opinion, but her perception is reality.

So I guess she just thinks if we make it past this, no need to make things worse in the family than they already are.

Her family is pretty disfunctional to be honest. Her mother is a perpetual liar and hides things like shopping sprees from her husband, bills, etc.... Her Dad is controling and only his opinion matters and never listens to reason. He knows it all. Her brother and sister both had marriages that ended in divorce. Her brother was the BS, her Sister was the WS and now my wife is a WS. What a mix huh?

I know it all sounds screwed up and I would like to clear the air, but I am trying to think how I could do that without making her so angry that we can't continue to move forward.

Hi Waiting,

What is bothersome to me about the next issue is it's about parents. I know parents are very important. But don't we leave our parents when we get married. I mean not physically. I don't think all of parents opinions should be taken into account when in marriage problems.
And parents can become a real wedge in the marriage if not careful..


It's your marriage. You are adults. Your wife is looking to much to her parents guidance and opinions which might not be healthy guidance. I hope she realizes that. Her decisions cannot be based on what the parents think, say, and do.

I hope she is not just using them as a scapegoat to make you feel guilty again by saying "this is what my parents think about you and our marriage. So this is the way it is." That is so unfair to you. (remember you haven't talked to them at all, so how much do you think she says is true). How do you know they think it was no big deal if you haven't talked to them. Maybe she doesn't want you to talk to them. I don't know...

Remember, tell her how you feel....

I feel (sad, hurt, angry) when you bring the parents opinions into our marriage, as much as I love them, parents should never be used as a wedge between a marriage, it's not fair to us or to them.

Lady

Lady

She is not bringing her family into it at all. In fact we hardly discuss her family and what they think.

The way this came up is she kept it from me for about 3 weeks that her dad sent all of his horses to the OM's barn for training. To me this was information she should have shared. I am hurt by what her Dad did but not at her. She says her parents and what they do have nothing to do with us and I aggree.

But, what is the motive for the OM to stay away from my wife if he obviously is currently doing business with my FIL.

My wife talks to her Dad all the time about horses and how the training is going and what the trainer is doing. Is that just not keeping the OM at the forefront of her mind.

Also, if we had any hope of me joining her one day in a hobby she enjoys, I can't see that happening as long as OM is that involved with FIL and MIL. It makes me sick.

My FIL and MIL just does not see what my wife did as having an affair. I know how they think. They think I just need to get over it and I am overreacting or something like that.

I could just scream I am so frustrated. I know now why my wife is having such a difficult time getting over things and us moving in a positive direction.

She loved horse shows and she is smart enough to know that her Dad pretty much has made it where she will have to choose me or the horses and showing because she knows I will never go for having anything to do with OM with her or myself. Heck if I saw him today I am not sure what I would do.

I know that is going to do no good. I have been there before on other issues. Should I just ignore the problem?

Dear FIL,
Waiting, I drafted this letter which you may find useful should you decide to say something to FIL. I would personally consider waiting a few more weeks in recovery until you get WW to actually admit, through counseling, that her inappropriate relationship was actually an affair. I think she is in denial right now.

Mr. W


Dear FIL

It has recently come to my attention that you have placed all your horses for training with Mr. ____. It is also my understanding that WW informed you a couple of months ago that she had an "inappropriate" relationship with Mr. OM (I called it an affair as it was a secret relationship that included a deep emotional bond and kissing/hugging but that is our issue to resolve).

I am writing you today to inform of the impact your decision has on my family. Wife and I are working diligently at restoring our marriage from the damage caused by their inappropriate behavior. As a condition of reconciliation we have agreed that Wife is to have "No Contact" with OM for the rest of her life or as long as she is married to me. "No contact" was recommended to us by professional counselors as a requirement for marital reconcialition. As such is the case if OM continues training your horses then wife must not only choose to not ever see OM nor ever go/perform at horse shows where OM may be present but must also withdraw herself from your horses as the risk of seeing OM there would be too great. Additionally, our children will be necessarily deprived of contact with your horses less they be exposed to OM.

Though personal hurtful to me, your decisions are completely yours and I respect that. I do not in any way claim any right to tell you what to do or whom to do business with. That is not my place. However, my place as the head of my immediate family has required us to make uncomfortable choices as a consequence of your decisions.

I do not believe you intended to be hurtful and I realize that going back on your decision now may be uncomfortable. I know you are aware of the destructive nature of extamarital relationships and I hope you will reconsider your decision. I hope you decide to place your horses with another trainer as OM is a danger to your daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren. He has disrespected OUR family with his actions and removal of your horses and the fees you pay him is but a small consequence of his actions. That being said, I will respect your decision either way.

I truly love our entire extended family and hope for continued peace as we all try to overcome and resolve our intrapersonal and relationship issues whatever they may be. I have no intention of battling or otherwise debating this issue with you. I merely wanted to clearly and respectfully state my opinion and provide you with additional information so you can make whatever appropriate decision you see fit.

Respectfully,
Waiting on Love

Waiting. I agree with Mel. You can't afford to allow your wife to lay the B/S on to her parents. And also, as they say, name the baby - it was an affair. Denial. Don't you love it. Of course it has connotations but that is exactly what it was. And it was Sexual if there was kissing involved - I'm sure we aren't talking about a peck on the cheek.

Mr. W

Thanks so much for you letter. I can tell much time was spent and many thoughts. I really like the letter. I have an appointment with SH the week of Christmas. I am going to pray about the letter and see what God says about me using it. Our MC (not SH, the other one) suggested I might not ought to address this issue with FIL because it does not endear me to my wife. I know it will be a blowup. I like the approach you took though.

I am just so tired of feeling like the bad guy if you know what I mean. I came to a conclusion. I am guilty of 2 things. My problem was is I have been too good of a father (if that is possible) where I poured so much into my children at the expense of my wife. I also meet needs of my wife, but meet needs that were not her top needs and was negligent at meeting her top ones. was great because it is a top 4 need for both of us. I was oblivious to her lack of love deposits she was not recieving.

I just hope it is not too late. Our present MC thinks she is just not willing to put anything into the marriage.

Last night I was looking on our laptop for some pictures for my brother. I came across photos from the last 3 years, holidays, vacations, sporting events, non events and just looked at them and how happy we seemed together. She looked so happy. My memories are of happiness, laughter, etc... The memories of vacations are particularly painful as it triggers thoughts of fun things we did together, wonderful SF and affection. Just all kinds of good things. I was just affixed on looking at them. Gazing into her eyes on the photos I could almost feel her love for me and it was a warm feeling. I could imagine her arms around me and her head buried on my chest when we hugged. Her body laying next to me under the covers. It was almost real, looking at the photos.

Then I looked at our Thanksgiving pictures from last month and see smiles but no fond memories. Her eyes don't even look the same. Her face is drawn downward despite the smile in the photo. It is just so painful.

Today is our 21st Anniversary. It is pretty sad. Last night we ( all 4 of us) watched a movie last night. Catch me if you Can. We laughed and had a good time watching it. Then everyone went to bed. My wife again went in the spare bedroom. It just made me sad. I went to our room and sat down and just teared up. I have not cried in a number of days.

After I dried up I wanted to tell her "I still loved her".

I went in her room and sat on the side of the bed and it took me several moments to be able to say anything. I told her "I just wanted to let you know I still Love you". She sat up and said she knows and hugged my back. I then told her "You are the best thing that ever happened to me" Then I teared up. She said no she isn't. I told her "yes you are". She rubbed my hair, hugged some more, rubbed my hair and kissed my head.

I just walked out after that and went to our room. Whimpered some more and then went to bed. (I felt so weak and alone last night)
I could not sleep all night thinking about our anniversary and all the years of good memories we have had.

Today is so hard.

Wow Waiting, What a sad painful night for you. I don't understand....what the heck is her problem.

Why is she continueing to do that to you? There has to be something more to it for her to sleep in the other room. Has she been sleeping in the other room since D-day?

How long does she think you all can go on like that. Doesn't she see the pain she is still causing?
Why is she still staying so seperated from you?

Lady

Lady

I really don't know why she is doing what she is doing. She says she doesn't want to hurt me. She knows she is. I really think she wants to have some feelings, but she wants to come about them her own way.

She just does not want to force anything or work on anything. She has it in her mind that it will just happen I guess. Kinda like it just happened when we first meet and when she had her A.

What she is forgetting is there was proximity (closeness) in both situations. The beginning or our relationship and her A.

I just don't think she is going to have those feelings without trying. For example, we hugged as I left the house this morning. She even kissed me on the cheek. I could tell when she was hugging that she was either feeling something or wanting to feel something. Just by the embrace.

We always would go off for our anniversary. We would go to the big city or mountains. Last year we went to Mexico. I planned our 20th for 2 years. We had an awesome time. Then 3 months later she is in the beginnings of an affair. I just don't get it. None of this makes sense. If you asked 100 people we know, that have known us since High School they would be shocked if they already did not know what was going on. It is so out of character. It is like she developed a different personality.

We have been together since 1979. She was 14 and I was 17. Broke up once when she was 15, niether of us could stand it. Got back together and have been together ever since. Married in 1984. This is all just so sad and crazy.

Waiting,
I am so sorry for what you are going through. Reading your post I almost teared up for you. But I want you to know I prayed after reading it and I thanked God for wrapping his loving arms around you so that you would know that you are not alone. I know.....believe me I know too well what you are going through. It is so very hard. But let me try and offer a ray of hope and some perspective. What you are going through right now is the toughest part. How long this tough part will last I cant predict. But do know this.....it gets better. You will get stronger no matter which way this goes. You cant make your W react the way you want her to react. It is up to her and she has to make choices that she will have live with the rest of her life. But what you can do is accept God's loving embrace and that will make each day better. You are not alone. You have support here and more importantly you have God's love...which will never ever go away or falter or waiver. It is rock solid and through his love you can be rock solid as well. I will continue to give thanks to God for the miracle he is going to perform in your life. We know not what the miracle will be.....but it is coming. Have faith my friend.

WCNTexas

Thank you so much for your prayers and comfort. I really need it today. I have always been a confident man that was always sure of myself. Not proud or cocky, but just sure footed and comfortable with my decision I make and handling problems.

I have never been an emotional guy. (except when watching Field of Dreams, I cry like a baby because of the similar sitch with my Dad and baseball)

I just am having a hard time bearing the thoughts that my wife may leave our marriage. I mean it really hurts when she says something like "I am not attracted to you anymore." She says I am handsome, but she is not attracted to me. That just cuts me to the bone.

I am just a wreck today but trying to hold it together. I run a business, teach Sunday School, am an active person in the community and an active father with my children. I would do anything to keep my family together. It means the world to me.

I just don't understand why she would want to leave when I have always tried to do the right thing.

Be considerate, humble, loving, firm when needed to be, always there for my kids, try to protect my wife and family, make a good living, provide a warm home and good vehicle to drive.

I have always stood for what is right (good), never sided with what was evil (intentionally).

Always told her I love her, flowers on special occasions, would lay down my life for her and my children and anyone else in our family and even some friends.

Love my country, my community our children's school and our church.

I am about 25 lbs heavier (since our wedding) than I should be according to charts but people don't consider me overweight.

I guess I have to quit trying to make sense of it, since it doesn't make sense in the 1st place.

It just doesn't make sense.

I want to pull my hair out. I have to shake the cobwebs from my brain and the images of putting a gun to my head to stop the hurt. (Don't worry, that will not happen, but I do fight them and I am on AD's)

I guess today things are just tough because of the day it is. Our 21st Anniversary. I wish I could have skipped it. I think I would have felt better.

Thank you again so much WCNTexas. My faith is what keeps me going. I hope and pray for other here also. So many are so hard to read. It breaks my heart. God is good and I know that.

God bless you for caring.

What are you going to do about exposure to your fil & mil?

I'm praying for you today. Hang in there mate. Somethings gotta break soon.

BK

I honestly don't know. One MC said to let it go for now. I have not talked to SH yet since this all came to the surface. I am due to speak to him again next week and I will bring it up to him.

I know at some point I will have to do what has been suggested by others. Mr. W wrote a great letter for my FIL to read and I may use that approach.

At the moment I just feel like I am in limbo. We talked last night for awhile. I asked her why was she sleeping in the other room? She said because she felt pressure in bed with me.

I asked her for what. She said SF, cuddling, etc..... She said she would like to have those feelings for me but does not and is not coming back into bedroom until she wants too. Not out of guilt or because I wanted it but because she wants too.

I told her I was afraid that would never happen with her current approach. We need some proximity to each other. I told her she would never get up in the middle of the night and want to cuddle if she had a thought about it because it was an effort to get out of bed, walk into our bedroom, crawl in bed with me, etc..... She actually listened to what I was saying, but still no change.

She basically said she knows she is being a b*tch and stubborn but she IS NOT moving back into our bedroom until SHE wants too. I just wanted to scream. She is not a selfish person but she being one now.

We exchanged our anniversary gifts last night. I looked long and hard for a card that would not be too serious and appear clingy. I went for a funny card with some nice quips. I also looked a long time for a gift and decided on a PIN/Necklace piece that was an Elephant with an ruby, emerald, Sapphire and diamond on it. It was small but I spent more than I should have but hey, it is an anniversary. She liked the card and the Pin and then she went upstairs and brought me my gift. I got a tie with our favorite college all over it. No card. The tie is nice, but what really hurt was the card issue.

She is a card buyer. She buys them months in advance looking for the right one. I asked her while we were talking why didn't she get me a card. She said she did not want me waving it in her face. I keep all the cards and letters she has written me and I have showed them to her when she goes into the rewritten history stuff. Apparently she did not want me to have something in writing I guess that said " I Love You".

I could not sleep again last night with the thoughts of how selfish she is. I am beginning to understand the point of plan B. Not that I need that at the moment or that is just around the corner but I am beginning to understand it.

I don't know how much longer I can hold out on this pace. I am having difficulty sleeping.

I am just tired and drained of energy. I need a boost. Something from her would pep me up greatly. I was so charged up 2 weeks ago for some reason and I have lost most of that.