I was thinking of suggesting a PI here too Mel. I agree. If she really has established NC, she should be coming around by now.

Thanks guys. I worry that NC has been broken but she swears that it hasn't. I have put a digital rec. in the car and also the house a few times and really did not discover anything except her singing country music in the car or talking to our dog. Of course I have not done it every day for an extended period of time.

I am not sure I have the money for a PI. She is for sure not seeing the OM from the A because he is about 4 hours away. Of course nothing would prohibit him from coming here and her meeting up with him but too many people know us here. Someone would have noticed I think. Maybe I am just gullable.

Is it possible she is just very stubborn? She is and always has been very stubborn.

Is it possible that her addiction to horse shows could be the issue like an alcholic to drinking?

Or could it be that she has held something back on the A, and not told me everything, like maybe they did have ?

Melody to be quite honest, I don't know what to think. My paranoid at the moment mind thinks should could be somehow, with a secret cell phone or calling card. I have a hard time believing that the phone call she made in my presence on 9/11/2005 would be enough to deter OM. I don't know him, but they were awfully addicted to talking to one another on the phone.

I was pretty ugly when I discovered A and exposed it to her. Said some ugly things to her and about him. Not that I didn't mean some of it, but I have regrets about somethings I said.

I just wonder could it just be taking her longer.
Also this is her 2nd A that I know of for sure, although I think she was either approaching or in a EA with her brothers friend in 2001, which would be a 3rd one, but she fully denies that one. She gives me the "we were just friends line".

So the Affairs and suspected Affairs order are as follows:

1984 Not sure if this one qualifies as an EA because we were not married at the time. (Approx summer I discoverd while we were engaged that she was talking and writing an old boyfriend she grew up with riding horses. She had not told this guy we were engaged. I made her choose. Either me or him. We either were getting married and she was telling him to back off or were weren't. She called him and told him and to my knowledge did not have further contact with him except for seeing him from a distance, until 1998. See next.

1998 EA (OM died in 1999) This guy as an became an alcholic and really destroyed his body. He was diabetic and did not take care of himself. His wife left him and took the kids. My wife felt sorry for him and ran into him at a horseshow in Aug 1998. He was the old boyfriend from (see above) when she was 10 - 12 yrs old. The guy was begging my wife to leave me and come up to his place and take care of him. The EA was all on the phone and lasted over the phone about 9 months. There was one kiss in 1998, she said it was not romantic though, more a goodbye kiss. (I never new about this one until counseling on 4/1/2001 after she told me she did not love me any longer)

2001 EA (no proof but I highly suspect it and even said so at the time) Her brothers moved in with a friend after her brothers divorce. There was a tanning bed at the house and her brother gave her a key to use anytime. That was around Dec 2000, wife told me she needed to go to IC in Feb 2001, after several session, told me she did not love me anymore on 4/1/2001. Her brother and friends partnership and friendship kinda went away in June 2001 and by July 2001 were in recovery. Full blown recovery by 9/11/2001. It is amazing what tragedy will do to bring people even closer.

2005 EA/PA Another horse guy. This time a trainer that provided her a horse to ride for free since we sold hers in Jan. This was not a trainer I knew nor did she know much about him, except for what she had seen at shows. I told her I had reservations about this situation. I questioned his motives, but she assured me it was fine that he was only doing it because he needed another amatuer rider. He had too many horses and not enough riders. She went to ride in Feb. They talked on the phone beginning pretty regularly in late Mar/April of this year. It was an addiction by May and she said it turned to PA in June. The kissing and hugging. She claims no SF or fondling etc... Even went as far to tell me she told him she could not do that because she saw what it did to her family when her sister did that 2 years earlier.

Melody I guess I tell you all the above because I really don't know what to believe anymore. She is very believable, but as you can see has been pretty decietful also.

Knowing all this, what does it sound like to you.

I blew it this morning. Wife said when we talk she feels like she cannot talk to me because I make her confused because I seek clarification of what she said by looking for some hidden meaning behind what she says. I am aware I do this but honestly don't realize it until it is already done. I don't know why. I guess an lack of confidence or something.

Anyway, she was real sad, cried alot. Basically said her heart is like granite and it took years for it to get that way and she is not sure if it will ever be right again. I told her we were both working toward a better marriage something she says she wanted, but she CANNOT see that happening. She says I may change for the short run but I will go back to the "old" ways.

I told her the MB process is something we have never tried before and I am learning so much that I did not understand until now.

She tells me she does not know how much more she can take of the probing, crying, being sad, feeling like she wants God to zap her (she assures me she will not do anything to herself). She just does not want to hurt anymore, hurt me anymore or the kids.

She says she only has 2 options. Die or pretend everything is ok and move forward. I really don't think she is in contact with OM. I think she is in deep depression and withdrawal from her horse show friends, OM and extreme guilt about what has happened.

I offered to cancel our MC session tommorow because it is so difficult for her. I did not offer to cancel SH session though on Thursday.

She says she feels like she will die at an old age without feeling passion and love for me. That grieves her terribly. I do believe she cannot see any progress. Maybe there has been non.

How can I help soften her heart? What can I do to show her I am being genuine. I am for the first time truely learning what LB with her and what makes her feel love. I don't want to blow this chance.

Any ideas on how to break through to a hard heart?

Today's Update Cont'd: See 2 posts above also for last night and this morning.

Just had another conversation with wife after lunch. We talked about what we both had done wrong in the past. She continues to say that her heart is dead to me and a Resurrection is much harder than a reviving of a heart.

I told her I was sorry but I don't know how to communicate it to her any better. I am learning knew things the last 2 months that I never knew before. What true love is and how it is born and stays alive.

She said she just can't make it any plainer that she just wants to stop hurting and wants to stop feeling like she wants to die. She claims it is not about any of her A's. She takes full responsibility of them and regrets them deeply because now she is having to earn my trust back. She says she only has history to base her feelings on and she says she knows what will happen. I will "change" for a while and then go back to doing the things I did before. Basically not meeting her EN's and LB'ing. I told her I would not claim to be perfect and I knew I would make mistakes, but I am trying as hard as I know how.

I am pouring everything I have into our marriage and will continue to do so. I told her I was not quiting but she needed to know that I am not forcing her to do anything. She is free to decide whatever, but I know for a fact we had a good marriage at one time and if she would meet me halfway I know we can get through this.

Once again, I told her she was free to decide whatever, but I was not giving up. I think she was a little shocked that I was leaving it in her court. I also reminded her that all of the things I learn will just be words until they are allowed to be put into practice.

She once again said that the history was the only thing she could use as a gauge. I told her we both are working on some trust issues. She is trying to earn my trust back and I am doing the same to a certain degree.

Could it be possible it is not about OM at this point and she is just shutdown emotionally to me? Am I saying the right things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

2nd Update Cont'd: See 3 posts above also for last night and this morning and at lunch

Things seem to be moving rather rapidly today. I don't know why but they are. This afternoon my W called me to update me on something after school about our oldest DS.

She then told me she wanted me to cancel our MC session tomorrow with our regular counselor.
{Earlier in the day - ( I told her that I was going to cancel the appointment because she was so stress and emotional today, I did not want her to go through that tomorrow, she said basically whatever I wanted to do. I asked her again and she said to wait she would think about it)}

I have basically gone into full 180 mod. I told her ok I would cancel and there was about a 3 second pause and then she said, no I will go. I think she was shocked that I did not beg her, try to sell her, or coax her into going. I have pretty much the last 2 days let her know that I am not keeping her, she is the one.

In the past she has tried to play the - trapped spouse game - but I have started reminding her she is staying on her own. She still tries to spin it to be something she is expected to do by me, kids, family, church, friends, but I have been very clear she is a Big Girl with a Big Girl car and Keys and can walk out the door anytime she wants too. I "felt" like I could tell what she was thinking. (This is my chance, I should go now, but Oh My God, what will I do, where will I go, it is the holidays, the kids, family, etc......) It was actually a relief this afternoon. I allmost felt empowered and rejuvenated and not a slave to her moods.

After processing some things on my own today, I have come to see a lot of what she has told me the last couple of days as BABBLE. There has been some valuable information I could use, but a lot is just foggy babble. I do feel she does not see the A's as being issues. I will let SH deal with that and to be perfectly honest if the symantics of how we discuss it (the chicken and egg scenrio) is the deal breaker then so be it. I don't want that to happen but I am just not going to be hung up on that like she is. The A's are issues, I made the enviorment ripe for affairs to occur by not meeting EN's and LBing. If she can't see it that way, then I say Oh Well ;;; I can only do what I can do.

Wife just came home from going to the visit some church members at the funeral home. She went with her Grandmother. She was unusually talkative and in a pretty good mood. My youngest DS asked me this afternoon after work why I was in a good mood. I just told him it was a good day to be alive. He seemed shocked.

I also did some more snooping and nothing showed up today.

My son asked what kind of day his mom had and I told him probably pretty crappy but told him not to worry about it. I told him I was done with worrying. I was not giving up, but I am not going to worry anymore. He actually seemed relieved.

I feel more free this afternoon and this evening than I have in weeks.

waiting, I am so proud of you! You have successfully placed the onus for your W's path of recovery back in her lap by reminding her that no one has a gun to her head! I sense that she has - strangely - allowed herself to feel she is your hostage. But, in reality, she is not. She is not a victim. This is not Afghanistan and you are not the Taliban. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is time that she owns her own behavior and you own yours. This is a great start.

Something else I am seeing here is that trying to educate her or work on your relationship seems to be pushing her away. Do you sense that?

Were you really that bad as a husband? What were her main complaints about you?

I am also concerned about her multiple affairs. It almost appears that this is a way of life with her. Of course, it is nothing that can't be changed, and if she buys into this program and works hard, she can change herself.

I really think you are doing great, waiting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel I am so glad you saw my post. I have grown to value your opinion greatly as many others.

Thanks for the encouragement about my recent progress. It has almost happened over a 24 hour period to be honest. I mean I know it did not happen over night, but some special strenght and perspective has come my way the last 24 hours.

I do think trying to educate her or work on our relationship seems to push her away. I don't know why but I do think you are right. I am not going to avoid it though. If she brings it up which she did today, I will talk about it.

Was I a bad husband? I don't think so. All our friends and family has said, what in the world does she have to complain about. Everyone says she has it made. She could come and go as she please to do her horse shows. 2 wonderful kids, smart, athletic, good looking. A husband (me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) that worships the ground she walks on.

I don't drink, smoke, gamble, go out with my guy friends. Everything I do, activities, plans, etc... revolve around my children and my wife. When she goes off for a few days to the horse shows, I shuttle our kids with help from other family and friends to and fro to their events and school. Do meals, clean house, etc....... She would even acknowledge all this.

SF was great, she would admit to that too. I am about 20 lbs heavier than when we married but I still look fairly trim and athletic. I keep my hair clean, neat, shave , etc...

Provide a very good income. We live in a very nice home. Well respected in the community. I teach sunday school. We are (or were) very regular at church activities. We have toured Europe, Mexico, Caribiean, Hawaii 2 times, all over the US. We home schooled our kids until the 6th grade.

I have never hit her, had angry outburst at her. I could go on.

Here is what she says is the problem. Basically, she says that when she has an opinion about something that I try to change her opinion or challenge her on it. She says I treated her like a Daddy at times and not a husband. Don't trust her. (wonder were that came from) I do interupt her at times expecially with other people around, but I am bad about that with many people.

I also am not a social butterfly and suffer from what I would cause mild social anxiety disorder. I don't do well mixing in crowds of people I don't know well. She says I make her miserable at events like this. I have tried to work on this but have not conquered that issue. I am hoping Lexapro will help.

Basically, what I told my MC last week is I am too nice. Her brother who's wife left him has a saying. The nice guys get screwed and the bad guys get to screw. Basically he says women are attracted to bad boys and not nice guys. I told my MC that I felt like the nice guy my BIL referenced. I know that is not true but it seems that way at times. I don't see any of what I have done as a deal breaker in our marriage, but apparantly it is.

Regarding the multiple affairs, you betcha some things will change. I have had fear through the process of what we will do if she aggrees to move forward 100%. At the moment, I am not going to negotiate anything to do with horse shows. Her problem is not that she is a dishonest person.

I have learned in MB with SH that her strongest EN's are weaknesses. Well conversation and Honest/Openness are 1 and 2 for her. If you know anything about my wife she is very good at conversation and just has the kind of personality that people bring their problems to. She always has an attentive ear. She is also a bit of a tomboy so at the horse shows the guys there talk to her like she is one of the guys and she feels that way. She is not really involved too much with many of the women in the industry. I mean she has female friends but she mostly talks with the men.

So if Conversatoin and Honest/Open which is transparency in my book, that can lead to an EA very easy.

Thanks for reading.

She TREATS you like her daddy, I have noticed. She whines like a teenage girl about how she "haaaaaaaas to follow the rules," and "its nooooooooooooot faaaaaaaaair!!" She sulks when she imagines she can't have her way. BUT, she can ALWAYS have her way. She is a big girl with big girl shoes and a big girl car who can locate the darn door, I presume.

She is playing a role because she does not want to be accountable for her decisions. Maybe you don't see it, waiting, but many of the things she says are very much like a teenage girl who is whining, rather than a grown up woman. As long as she blames you for making her do things, she doesn't have to own her behavior or make changes. DADDY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey I never thought of it like that. I guess you are right.

BTW, I used your big girl keys, car etc.. on her yesterday. Thanks for the phrase. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS, I forgot to mention and it goes hand in glove with what you said. A lot of the issues she has occured will we were in highschool 20+_ yrs ago. Things I would not let her do, go etc.... Of course I was a jelous over protective teenager at the time, but that does not matter.

You are right.

Thanks

So, she CHOOSES to accede to your wishes and it becomes "he won't allow me." How did you become her Big Poppa?

What was the threat if she didn't mind you? A grounding? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Waiting - been out. Just reading the latest.

You are opening the cage door here buddy! She is seeing her freedom and asking herself if she wants to take it. Excellent. I think you are doing well. I really like what you are saying here.

And Mel's advice is excellent as always.

She is going to MC today and has not cancelled out but I promise the 1st time she says she doesn't want to go or hates it or whatever, I am going to remind her it is her choice, if she doesn't want to go, don't go !!!

Don't get the wrong impression, I am not going to turn into a mean person, but I am going to show her that her choices are hers and I am not making her do anything. I am so over that !!!

I will post later what is going on after our session today.

I got the whole 'Daddy' thing exactly from my wife too!

She said that I treated her like one of the kids...but when I asked for specific examples of it, she couldn't come up with any. I HAVE made a definite effort to always back her up when she's dealing with the kids (even if I happen to disagree with her, I'll talk with her about it AWAY from the kids). But I too got that whole 'controlling, trying to be my father' speech when my wife was WW.

And I told her pretty much what Mel has told you...she was always a big girl able to make her own decisions. And yet she CONSTANTLY put it on me to make the choices for her...she WANTED me to do that. I would also like to point out that we discussed the whole issue in depth in many of our MC sessions...and I've not heard her say anything about this kind of problem in over a year.

Feel free to share my story with her if you feel that it will help in any way.

Be cautious of sudden turn arounds in behavior like you've described...I'm not saying that it's not real, but it's not unusual for a repenent WS to go back and forth like this for quite a while before truly deciding to stick to the effort needed to rebuild things.

Hang in there friend.

Thanks Owl you are very wise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. No pun intended. BTW, Owl's are my favorite bird. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I am fully prepared for the back and forth. Probably more aware and prepared than I have ever been. I am no longer going to be the whining doormat begging her to stay and to keep going to MC. I am going to still try not to LB and meet her EN's but I'll be darned if I am going to pine away and woe is me about it.

Today is a good day, I am not going to be depressed and I do not depend on her for happiness !!! I love her more than anyone can know, but I am done with the old way of dealing with things. Thank God, Praise Jesus I have been freed from my old bondage.

I fully expect the MC session to be just as painful and heart wrenching as always. I fully expect to hear how I have hurt her so much by not letting her be herself over the last 20+ yrs and I fully expect her to say she doesn't need a Daddy and I fully expect her to tell me she doesn't want to hurt anymore, but I think I am prepared.

Oh I know I will have moments of weakness and my stomach will churn with nausea at times, but I will rebound back to my stronger self much quicker.

Heck, I even started a diet today to loose those 20 lbs I put on. Not for her, but for me. I am tired of grunting when I bend over to tie my shoes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Lord is good and provides me strength today.

Phil 4:13 - I can do all things through Him .....

Way to keep the great attitude man!

And...I've said it here and on other forums, and will keep it going as long as I need to...

THIS Owl is NOT wise. If I were wise, I would have been able to avoid any of the problems that lead to my being on these boards myself. And the reason I go by Owl actually has nothing to do with wisdom...it's for other reasons entirely. (But, Owls ARE my favorite bird too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm just opinionated, and love giving advice! Now, if I get lucky once in a while and it helps someone, more the better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I truly was refreshed and excited to tell the MC my progress and my sudden realization of what I needed to do for myself to make this work. It is amazing. I told her it was like another light was turned on yesterday. When I told her she was not being held by me, the kids, or anyone I felt free all of the sudden. I must admit, it was a little tough sucking in the air to be able to utter the words, but when they came out it was like a huge relief on my part.

Once again, please no one get confused. I still love my wife very much. I am very p*ssed about the situation with the A but I am over it to the point that "it" and her "ups and downs" are not holding me hostage. I am not responsible for how she feels. In fact I told the MC today that my biggest issue that I created was trying to protect her from harm emotionally with troubling things. A noble thought, but not practical. I should have let the same sh*t hit her in the face that I dealt with with our such as family issues, business issues, finances, etc.....

What a relief I feel. She seemed a little better too, although she did zone out a bit when she left to go pickup the kids from school this afternoon, but you know what. That is her deal, not mine. WHAT FREEDOM !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Praise God. I feel like shouting !!! I really can't wait to go home tonight to experience another night at home with this freedom. Don't get me wrong, nothing amazing from my wife occurred last night but I did not feel like the weight of the world was on my back. I did not even tell her good night. I just read, watched the football game and feel asleep in bed.

I really am looking forward to progress that I know is coming. Hopefully she will improve but for now, this is about me getting better and learning how to be the Husband I should have been all along.

PS Mel. I told our MC what you said about spoil little teenage girl. She agreed very much. In fact the MC must have come down on her pretty hard about the same thing. God works in mysterious ways does he not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This evening WW slipped back into zombie mode. She was playful and loving with the kids but pretty much ignored me and when they went to bed, she zoned out and did not say anything and eventually went to sleep in her chair.

For conversation to be a big deal for her, she sure seems like it isn't. Oh Well. I guess I will look at it as being her loss, not mine.

I still feel free.