If it irritates her, then stop doing it and pull back. Let her come to you and just do your best to look for opportunities to meet her needs.

Are you sure that contact has ended?

As best I can tell. I really don't think she would lie to our pastor. I could be gullable though. If she is in contact with him, I think it would be via calling card from a pay phone or something. I don't know how to catch this if so.

I will pull back. I think I am doing more harm and selfishly I think I am desiring affection more than I am trying to show her love. Guilty I guess, but I am starved at the moment.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Here is my situation.

Wife said she is tired of trying last week. Even told our kids, but backed off when yougest freaked out and aggreed to continue to go to MC.

My DOB tommorow (18th), Hers is Friday 21st, the big 40. DS is the next Monday 24th (He becomes a teenager, his by 13)

I really wonder if she is just in gut check time to get past the DOB's before saying she tried and it won't work again.

Also, working against us, her A happened around a hobby she enjoys and has a passion for (horses) and she knows it is not possible at the moment to go to a horse show with us still "working on things" because the OM would be there.

Also, does NC count if she sees photos of him in trade magazines and newspapers or am I being too sensitive?

Our MC made a statement today that disturbs me greatly. She says she fears my wife will no longer try because of the horse show issue. How can we get past this issue?

I have a question for anyone willing to offer an answer.

WW and I went to counselor today. Our regular scheduled appointment since D-day.

We have not been since WW told me last week she was tired of trying. The MC gave me some advice that I am not sure how I feel about it.

Her A happened around horse shows and horses with a trainer that is pretty much a good bet that the trainer (OM) would be at in our region of the country if the horse show is worth going to. These shows have hundreds of people in attendance but the regular people that go from event to event is a smaller community.

Anyway, th MC made the comment to me that my wife basically already has one step out of the door ready to leave. She suggests maybe I give in and tell my wife it is ok with me if she goes to the shows as long as no contact is made, but I not ask her later was there contact etc....

MC says I need something to endear her to me. I guess that means show her I love her. MC says she knows that is tough to do and even admited that she (MC) might not be able to do what she is suggesting, but her response was she is almost about to leave anyway.

I just don't know how I feel about this. Well that is a lie, I know I don't like it at all. I feel like I am shoving her right over to the OM, but the MC says my WW even said she knew NC had to be kept.

Is the MC grasping at straws or has she got something. One day down the road I would like for my wife and I to be able to do her hobby together and occasionally maybe when things are better and I can't make it, have her go without me, but my gosh, We are 5 weeks post D-day.

Am I being insecure or untrusting of my prayers to God or is this something God is asking me to do? Our MC is a strong Christian and someone we went to before in 2001.

My other thought is if I offer maybe she will not except out of respect for me and that will still offer love deposits.

On the otherhand, if I offer and she excepts, I will take terrible grief from friends and family that will think I am a fool. Of course many of them already do so, so what else is new? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any ideas?

bump please

My idea is that your MC is a [censored] if she thinks that contact will do anything but HARM your marriage. Just consider this, w, Dr. Harley, who is probably one of the most successful and published MC's in the US lays his success to his absolute INSISTENCE that there never ever be contact again, even if you have to move to another state. This is the key to his success. This is the ONLY WAY a WS can withdraw from an affair. To do otherwise indicates an ignorance of the addictive nature of an affair.

What she is suggesting would be like putting a recovering alcoholic in front of beer in the bar every day and telling them they can't touch it. When the inevitable weak moment hits, they are back to drinking again. And the whole time they are in the bar, they are thinking of nothing but that beer; they are obsessed with the beer. That is HARDLY recovery. That is how it will be with your W, she will think of nothing but the OM and will seek him out when the weak moment hits.

And how will you fare? You will never regain trust as long as she stays in contact with the OM. Every contact or every chance at contact puts you back to day 1 of recovery. It will be like dying a slow death of a thousand cuts.

Some articles coming......

"As long as you were seeing or communicating with your lover, there was little hope that your feelings for your husband would be revived. But by separating from your lover, you have removed one of the most important obstacles for complete marital recovery -- your lover.

But, as you have already discovered, the first few weeks of separation from a lover are very painful. You are addicted to your lover, and separation from the object of your addiction has triggered symptoms of withdrawal -- a compulsive craving for him with intense feelings of anxiety and depression. However, if you completely avoid seeing or communicating with your lover, those feelings of anxiety and depression will gradually fade. For most people they fade in a few weeks. But even if it takes longer to get through withdrawal, it is absolutely essential to do it if you want to restore your love for your husband.

Remember the Love Bank? If you are to be in love with your husband, he must deposit enough love units into his account in your Love Bank so that it will trigger the feeling of love in you. But since you are depressed while you are getting through withdrawal, it will be almost impossible for him to deposit very many love units. If he is to deposit love units into your Love Bank, you must first get over being depressed so you can associate him with your good feelings.

Once you are through withdrawal, however, you are ready for marital reconciliation because then, and only then, does your husband have a chance to deposit love units. Your mood will improve dramatically, and the effort your husband makes to meet your needs will reap impressive dividends. Before long, you will be in love with him again.

But if you give into your craving before withdrawal has ended, and contact your lover, the period of withdrawal will begin all over again. Those feelings of anxiety and depression will come back with a vengeance. All of your efforts to reconcile with your husband will be wasted, and it will test the limits of your husband's patience. So you must take extraordinary precautions to avoid ever seeing or communicating with him again. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

wow. I am reading and typing from my phone but that was what I was thinking. I felt in a moment of weakness if she saw him there she would go to him and even if she did not just seeing him from a distance would start her withdrawal all over again.

not to mention what I would be thinking.

MelodyLane

by the way. thanks so much for your wise counsel. may God bless you and youe marriage.

I would like my WW and I to both do the phone MC with Harley or Jennifer. I have not made a call, but have seen many references to both on postings.

I have mentioned to her about this and she seems reluctant to do so. She will go to other Christian MC we have went to before but she thinks a phone counsel will not be beneficial. I see no difference, but she does. Says she wants to be able to look at the other person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Can someone offer a suggestion on how to overcome that obsticle?

I don't want to LB and things seem to be going pretty decent but she is in and out of it. Seems out of the fog the last 2 days than in it.

waiting, just tell her how immensely successful they are. Just one session with Steve and she will feel confident about him. Get a session for yourself and just ask her to try it. If she won't, then Steve can help you find the right words to persuade her to try it.

Well, tommorow is her DOB. She will be 40. A year ago we were going to have a big get together with friends and family. Really celebrate it. Now she really does not care. We are going to just do something the 4 of us. DS15 and DS12 and Mom and Dad.

She really is detached about the whole thing. Also, she is moping around again. Our kids are really tired of he being negative also. I am trying to keep them positive and be sure they understand they are not at fault, but we all need to be sure she knows we love her, etc... and care more for her other than and house maid and cook.

Also, I am struggling with the lack of affection and sex. We have not had sex (the real thing) since the end of May 2005. That is when the EA started. We did other stuff but no real sex. Now we don't do anything and in fact not even a kiss other than a peck.

How does a man overcome the fear that your wife is comparing me to OM?

Mel, Bob or anyone,

I have major PeaSoup going on today. I have learned from Bob's posts to others, I need to stop the ILY's. I can see it in a different light now. I may be doing more damage than good.

I have to say we are about 6 weeks post D-day and she comes and goes out of the fog. One thing today is she resists some of the "rules" we aggreed on. She calls them my rules but you know how that goes.

One thing that IMO caused A #1(EA) and #2(EA/PA) is lots of contact with males on the phone. She is very involved with her hobby with is male dominated and they call her all the time. After #2 A on 9/11 I told her I would appreciate her not talking to other males (includeing NC rules on the OM). I felt all along the old it was an issue but to "give her space" I never checked up or questioned her alot about it. Hence that is how the other #2 A started. Harmless talk about her hobby on the phone, then one thing lead to another.

She said today she feels embarrassed that she has not called all these people back that keep calling her. I told her I did not mind as long as it was not a secret and she could talk to them in front of me, which she never did before. She also is missing an event this week that OM would most likely be at.

So long story short, she is "having a feel sorry for me day" her words not mine.

She is also very "anti Church" at the moment. Feels uncomfortable at church but goes anyway because it is expected of her and the "right" thing to do. Babble, Babble. She was a strong Christian women. She knows better.

Why must she resist God in this. He has not done anything to her.

I guess I am just venting.

Is it possible for the fog to be this bad almost still?

When do you know when they want to begin recovery?

It makes me at times want to just give up. Not that I am, I made a promise to my kids, but I just want to sometimes scream in exhaustion of the sad face, ho hum attitude she conveys. I do love her very much, but she is just crushing my "feelings" to pieces. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How do I maintain composure without pushing her away, and yet still let you know I am there for her without sounding pathetic?

My WW tells me she feels like she is grounded. As per one of my previous post she is resentful that I don't want her talking to these other males around her hobby. Both A's were associated with her hobby and involved phone calls at the beginning.

MelodyLane feels like it would be the wrong thing to aggree to her going to her hobby, but I also think the phone call thing is a major problem as both A's were connected to her phone calls with OM's in the past. None of these OM's which I might add, did I know personally or at all.

I don't nor did have a problem with her conversing with males on the phone, but I just thought it not a smart thing in our marriage to continue at the moment the way we had been going.

Please let me know thoughts on this. - the grounding or restriction feeling, continuing phone calls to OM's. How do we have aggreement without her resenting.

Is getting involved in her hobby a possibility? Go to the shows with her...and become part of that life with her. Tell her that you want her to enjoy herself, and that you want to learn more about this part of her life.

Be enthusiastic about it, and really do get into it. It's likely to be a major boost to her LB if you do so. And at the same time, it's going to be pretty much impossible for her to get involved with someone when you're there.

If she balks and says that she doesn't want to have you there (for whatever reason)...big red flags.

If kids are an issue, see what kind of compromise you can work out...see if she'd be willing to attend fewer of these events, and see if you can setup a sitter of some kind to allow both of you to attend the events she deems to be the most important.

Just my thoughts...find a compromise that will allow the two of you to grow TOGETHER, not apart. And tell her that THIS is what you've wanted all along.

The OM from affair #2 is a trainer and is there also and it would be impossible for NC to occur at the event.

I have told her I hope our marriage would get to a point that we could do this together, but she says I telegraph misery at these events and ruin her time. Consequently she went by herself. I do hope if this is something she wants to do that once we both feel safe and secure that we would be able to do this together. We used to and it was fun, but it became more about who was winning and politics so they (her family) started using professional trainers and it became less fun.

I feel like I am fighting withdrawel from 2 things. The OM and now the Hobby. MC suggested I "let" her go without me this week to show some sort of love or whatever.

I know what would happen, she would see OM and we would be back to square one. I feel like we are screwed no matter what. If she would just have paitence and work on this, I believe once the security of our marraige was better and I could deal with seeing the OM, I might be able to hack it and try to enjoy it for her. But right now, if I saw the OM, I believe I would do something I would regret later. Not good for the marriage either.

Well, ask her how she would feel if the tables were turned...if you had an affair while you were 'bowling'...but you really wanted to stay on the same league that OW was on...how would SHE feel in that case?

Of COURSE you radiate distress right now...what could she possibly expect you to feel if you're hanging around the guys she was with?!?!?! DUH!!!

Well, tell your counselor to get a clue...that of course there is no way that you would ever feel comfortable with her being back in the same situtation where the A's occurred, and back in contact with those people...tell your counselor that you're shocked that they could even consider that that kind of scenario would be remotely healthy for your marriage...ask them if you should go ahead and purchase condoms for her before she goes too? Even if nothing happens, this would erode your trust in her...which is ALSO a big part of the marital issues right now...what is your counselor doing about THAT?!?!

OK...she feels withdrawl from her 'sport'. So did my wife when we QUIT playing the online game where she met OM. Well, welcome to the changes to our lives that we have to make in order for us to recover from your poor choices. Time to find a NEW hobby then...one that both of us can share and grow together with.

LOL...guess what? I learned to crochet...my wife can do any kind of craft you can imagine, and this was a good way for us to spend time together. Now, me being a man, I had to modify this for myself...after I learned how to make scarves and such, I turned around and used that craft to make myself a pouch for my sling-stones (I hunt with slings, atl-atl's, etc...). Made them out of the same fiber I use to braid my slings....LOL.

But the point is, it's something we can do TOGETHER. Oh, and now that we're a year and a half into recovery, we also play online games again...TOGETHER. Instead of logging in seperately and her being able to sit and chat with OM (who is now long gone out of game...guess if he couldn't get what he wanted there he moved on...), we spend the time playing TOGETHER...and her monitor is always turned towards me now...she does that herself. So that I know that nothing is going on...and we have keyloggers on all the computers...that she knows is there. It doesnt matter...she's got nothing to hide now.

You get the idea. Let her know that she needs to either find a way to use her sport to BUILD your marriage and trust in her, or find another hobby. A marriage is about SUPPORTING each other...you're willing to do your part...how about her?

Owl,

Thank you so much for your input.

I really do agree with you. We go to the MC again tomorrow. We are going separate 1 hour each tomorrow and I am going to go 1st and mention that I would appreciate her not supporting that idea. I really don't have a good feeling about it.

I mean I feel like I throw in the towel if I give in at this point.

I wish finding another hobby was so simple. She has been doing this hobby now for 35 yrs. More so the last 4 yrs though. A real life of Riley type the last 4 yrs. Gone at least 1 time a month for 3 - 4 days sometimes, twice a month from Feb - Nov. In August and Sept 10 days each. Way too much IMO.

Anyway, she was playing golf with me but stopped that about 4 yrs ago. I don't even go anymore to play. She says to do something with me at the moment is a real irritation. Imagine what goes through my mind when I hear that statement. (what does she think I am irritated at)

I would love a change of hobby, something we could do together. In fact we were looking at Cabins to purchase in the Mountains this spring. A place to go and relax together. Maybe fish, hike, just hang out and read, swing from the bedpost. You get the picture, before all this broke, and I mentioned then that for us to do the cabin thing, she might need to cut down on her hobby so we could justify the cabin and time we wanted to spend there. That was meet with a huge disagreement.

The Cabin thing reminds me of the fog and rewriting history. We were both so happy looking for this and talking about retirement one day and going to it every other weekend or so. She was even adamant about the privacy of a bedroom at one place because she knew we needed the privacy for sex. (The master was a loft over the den). We both had the same visions happiness goals, etc… All that seems to be lost in her fog now.

Back to the Hobby thing. I just don't know how to overcome that right now.

I am willing to try my part though.

I decided yesterday to implement some withdrawel of my own so to speak. No more ILY's, no more kiss goodbyes or hello, no more wanting to cuddle. I have been pathetic. I bet she has been about sick of me. Last night it began. I actually feel a little better about myself.

She actually slide over next to me in bed during the night and blew me a kiss good bye as she told me to be careful on my way to work.

Be Careful is the new substitute for ILY in her opinion I guess. She has been saying that a lot.

Thanks everyone for encouraging me to try the new approach. I should have been more perceptive, but I guess I have been in my own funk.