Oldest DS and I went hunting all day Saturday and came in after dark. She seemed ok, and Sunday she seemed fine at church. Both DS's and I went to a baseball clinic after church while my wife went shopping for Thanksgiving stuff. She seems fairly talkative and doesn't seem to be all down and out like she has been.

I am continuing to pray for change and of course I need to change as well. I have to write out a plan per SH about how I am going to meet her top 4 needs.

Still no physical contact or love talk. I told her yesterday before I left to go hunting that I loved her. Maybe I should not have done so, but I still feel occasionally I should tell her.

We will see how the evening goes.

Thanks all.

Is your wife willing to spend any time at all doing fun things just with you? It seems to me like you are kind of living separate lives. Has it always been that way?

believer unfortunately you are correct. She is really not willing to do much of anything and yes we have lived separate lives. She will her horse show friends and life and me with the kids and their sports. I really do not do anything for myself. In fact Saturday with my DS hunting was for him. I did not even carry a gun to the woods. I was there to teach him and provide him an opportunity to hunt.

When we go out to eat on Friday or Saturday it seems we double date with our oldest DS and his friend.

In fact I found out yesterday that some friends of ours asked us to go out with them and she did not want to go. So we went with our 15 yr old and his friend instead.

It is almost like she wants to avoid interaction in town.

It has not always been that way. Leading separate lives. We used to do almost everything together until about 4 yrs ago. She claimed I was smothering her, (reality she was in withdrawel from EA) so through MC (not the Harleys) I learned to let her have "space". The only thing that did over time was to move us farther apart.

Sorry to hear that. I suggest you try inviting her out a couple times a week. If she declines, go by yourself.

Ouch.

That is something that will have to change. You will have to do some family commitment stuff as well as recreational companionship. The current situation is more like independent behaviour. Is FC one of her EN's?

believer

I have asked her out before but she really does not seem to want to do anything. I think she is afraid of conversation. She says we don't know how to talk about stuff. Says we only talk about the kids. Well heck, that is a big part of our life. She says she fears what will we have to talk about when we don't have the kids to talk about.

Conversation is her #1 need and obviously some one on one time to just talk, not about the marriage, but just talk about stuff is needed.

Her top 5 needs are

1 Conversation
2 Honesty and Openness
3 Affection
4 Sex
5 Family Commitment

SH wants us to work on top 4 until next appointment. 3 and 4 is not happening at the moment. For one thing, I am trying to 180 as best I can but still show her I am there for her. She doesn't want to talk when it is just us. So I am left with H&O and FC. I have always done FC, in fact she says no problem there and HO is fine to except I tend to keep the bad stuff from her. Not anymore, but prior to this issue.

bighahuna

I aggree it has to change. I am more than willing but as you can see from above it is hard. She says she likes to be by herself and have down time and does not have a problem with that, but I really don't think that is the case. I mean someone who has Conversation as there #1 need would not seem like the kind of person that wants to be by herself. Her phone calls to the OM would indicate otherwise. She also gets tons of phone calls from her mom and sister.

I think she is just afraid of spending time with me. For what reason I could not tell you. It has never been a problem before and in fact looking back on it she was starved for time together. I remember her telling me she feels like we are "2 ships passing in the night". Maybe it is a phase and just part of the fog.

Oh yea, btw I forgot to mention something.

I threw my back out hunting Saturday. When I came home my wife offered to bring me supper in my chair and did so and keep asking was there anything she could do for me.

Then this morning she actually snuggle close to me. Asked me if I was cold and I said a little and she snuggled close so I could hold her. It did not last long because the alarm went off to wake the kids. When I came back I did not push it. I just rolled over and she snuggle close to me and put her arm around me.

I could tell she was trying and it did not feel comfortable for her but she did. We are now 9 weeks post D-day. She has not offered any affection for about 7 weeks. I was shocked. I did not comment, did not say anything and was not clingy. Hopefully this will continue.

Update:

My WW showed up at worked this morning seemed in a great mood. I was shocked. Anyway, after about 2 hours she got a phone call from our SIL, then my Mom. My mom wanted to talk to her before Thanksgiving and SIL was worried the holiday would be too stressful. SIL also asked if my WW was really giving it 100%.

My wife was really torn up over the phone calls. Cried and Cried. Told SIL she was doing all the rules, regulations, etc... but just did not know how much more she could take.

Poor her. Forget what I am going through. Anyway, it put a damper on our usuall Monday lunch, but at least she is thinking.

She has left the office for her normal hour to hour and halp a day, of not knowing where she is or what she is doing. I am playing it cool as to not "smother her" but I truely wonder what she is up to this time of day. She usually says she is at her moms or at her moms work place. Both have computers so I have thought of contact being made there via computer or her taking some real estate course online at about 2pm each day. Who nows. All I know is I will keep trying.

We go to our regular MC tommorow.

Hiya waiting. Some positive signs there I think. I can see that it is driving you crazy. I also think the SIL and MIL need to not be nailing her about your relationship - that just makes her feel pressured. Is that 9 weeks of NC? Man she is probably still in withdrawal!

You have grown apart over the years so she feels you have nothing to talk about and when you do talk it is Relationship talk? The 15 hours a week can be excruciating for a while. Hang in there. I really don't know what else to say.

BK

I think so too on the signs and it does make one nuts at times. I don't think the SIL and MIL (my mom) were nailing her. In fact they were trying to encourage her, but just the conversation was tough for her to handle. Today was the 1st day my Mom had talked to her since I told my Mom.

My mom just told her she would help with the kids, do anything to help us out, etc...... My SIL did ask her was she giving it 100%. Maybe that was a little direct, but she has not said much to her since d-day about it. They have talked alot, but avoided the subject.

We are 9 weeks post d-day and I am not experianced enough to know if withdrawel is still occuring.

One thing that is hurting our chances is I believe my MIL and FIL and other SIL (SIL did the same thing to her spouse 2 yrs ago) are not encouraging her to work things out. I believe my wife has painted the rewritten history thing to them so they think I am the overprotective, smothering husband that is jelous of her time with other males.

They don't know the big picture of her 2 EA and 1 EA/PA. They discount heavily her 1st EA as being really nothing. They know nothing of her 2nd EA so this most recent one is the only real deal they acknowledge. It is almost justified in their mind for how I have made her soooo unhappy all these years. They have bought the foggy story completely.

It is funny before, when she had her 1st EA they were all about doing whatever. She packed her bags and carried them to her moms house and my FIL advice was for her to get her butt home to her husband and work it out. Times have oh so changed.

Just hang in there. Do the stuff SH suggests. Keep in contact with him.

I can see the recreational companionship thing is going to be a huge problem to overcome for you. At some point she has to acknowledge that you both need to spend this time together especially as she seems to have a weakness in that area of developing inappropriate friendships with other males.

I know I will have some upcoming trouble in that area too - Lesson 4 next week SF, Lesson 5 conversation, Lesson 6 Rec Comp. 3 weeks till fireworks!

But at least we are depositing a lot of love units for now and it is our 23rd Wedding anniversary on 11/27 - we are going away for the weekend.

I know the progress you are making is a lot slower than you want - it was for me too but in reality mine was amazingly fast given the "typical" experiences on this board. I have been VERY VERY lucky and blessed by God. I still can't believe the speed of the turn around and the willingness of my wife to work and make things right. Just blows me away. It doesn't take long to have the feelings of love return. She still has her moments but we are on the up & up. Just hang in there, pray, believe.

ome tonight and another time waiting to blow up. My wife and son are Christmas decorating nuts. Really it is pretty and all, but nuts. Way overdone but always a family tradition of doing it up before Thanksgiving for all to see on Thanksgiving.

Anyway, I got the word from wife that tonight was the night. When I got home she was in an ill mood and the kids did not like the way she was acting either. We went through supper and about 30 minutes of decorating and she went upstairs. I could tell something was eating at her so I asked her if there is anything she wants to tell me. A problem with the kids, me anything. She goes into the normal dance of nothing is wrong she is just tired. NOT true usually. I asked her again and after about 4 times she finally admits she is not in the mood to decorate but she has too.

Then the conversation went to "look my feelings haven't changed, I am following all the rules, etc.. etc.. etc.."

I think I now know what is bothering her. She is bent out of shape over Christmas because of what we are going through.

Anyway, I tried very hard not to love bust.

My question is this. When I sense something is wrong or she is moody about something, should I just ignore it and do the 180?

Thing is she isn't following the rules - she isn't meeting your EN's and she isn't letting you meet hers. How can she expect her feelings to change if she wn't do that? She will have to "prime the pump" to get some love happening between you. She can't just drift along and at the end of it say "I did my best but it didn't work" Some effort has to be made on both sides.

What effort, EXACTLY, has she put into this? None.

She's 'following all the rules'...ask her exactly which rules is that she's following? What, EXACTLY, is wearing her down soooo much? And talk to her about it. The reality is that SHE is wearing herself down...she's expecting this to all just go away if she hides her head in the sand long enough. She's hoping that you'll give up and stop trying.

Gently call her out on it. Our first MC made the comment "You can't build a house without first making the CHOICE to build a house. It won't suddenly just appear one day. You have to CHOOSE to work on building the house...that's the first step in ANYTHING." Your wife is just lying around going 'poor me'...she's not CHOSEN to do anything yet. Could be withdrawl...I don't know for sure.

I'd try talking with her about it directly. She's so hung up on this 'rules' thing...what rules???? Make her spell out EXACTLY what's got her so unhappy...and don't accept the "I don't want to try". Ask her for specific actions or things that are making her unhappy right now...NOT back during or pre-affair. RIGHT NOW.

And then see what can be done to either make her see that it's all BS, or what needs to be done to fix the problem.

Thanks Owl,

I will try to address them as best I can. Here goes. Oh BTW I will gently bring that up to her also.


Rules of not going to horse shows at the moment. That is were OM is, she says it is over and she has no feelings for OM but does not see that I should have a problem with her going to something she really really enjoys doing, since she is not going to have contact with OM. She is also bitter that I am still hunting or golfing or whatever IE her comments to me about hunting and her not wanting to hunt. Keep in mind that she feels no threat from those activities I enjoy. And by the way, I don't do much of anything other than coach our sons baseball, which to me is Family Commitment.

Also, I told her I did not think it was a good idea for her to be talking to other male friends that she knows from horse shows (I don't even know most of them). Not just talking occasionally but for 20 and 30 minutes at a time sometimes several calls a day. I said that needed to go IMO especially since that is how 2 of her EA's started. Conversation is her #1 EN therefore she is weaker there IMO.

Also she believes that what Steve Harley and our MC are asking her to do are rules. IE meeting my EN's, forgiveness, etc...


I do believe that she wishes I would give up. She says she is so tired of being tired and her chest hurting, headaches, hair falling out, flaking eye lids. I see all those issues as stress she could avoid if she only would.


That is the key. When I do talk to her about our relationship she usually gets frustrated and shutsdown.

She does not see the affair as an issue. Heck I don't even bring it up and if I even hint something about it she gets angry and goes off by saying something like, "See I know you will never let it die, You are going to hold it over my head forever".

She maintains that is over and the affair as nothing to do with why her feelings for me are gone. She does not want to "fake it" by making herself meet my EN.


I am doing the best I can to meet her needs but it is a hard thing to do when she really does not want me to and I am trying to do a 180 in my Plan A.

Thanks for the input.

And when she is asked to do something, it is up to her to decide whether or not to do it. She is a big girl, with big girl car keys and money in her purse and can decide her own actions. If she decides to do those things, then she should take ownership of them....like a big girl.

Sorry, but it really irks me that so many women act like hapless idiots who are the mercy of someone else. She is at the mercy of NO ONE. The door is wide damn open. If you AGREE to do something, then be accountable. Take accountability for your choices, for God's sake.

Remind her that no one here has the power to make her do anything, waiting. She is doing this all by CHOICE. That will put the accountability right back in her lap.

Well, as far as her not liking the fact that she can't go to the horse shows...tell her that it's a direct result of her 2 EA's and PA...it's a direct result of HER choices. If she hadn't made the bad decisions that she had, that this wouldn't be an issue.

As far as being asked to do anything to rebuild the marriage...again...DIRECT results of HER bad choices...not yours. Why is she angry at the results of HER decisions here?

ML is right...if she doesn't like the 'rules'...then gently remind her that the other option is always there...move out now. Just remember...there are consequences for THOSE choices too. ANY choice we make has consequences we have to be prepared to accept....just part of being an adult. I had pretty much the same discussion with my wife while she was still foggy/in withdrawl. I told her this gently and kindly, but firmly as well.

I'd ask her..."So you just expect for me to feel free with you going to the shows to potentially start ANOTHER affair (especially since so damn little has been done to help our marriage recover from the last ones you've had)? You feel that it is totally OK for you to continue doing what you've done, and that the kids and I should just sit here and accept that without any hurt or upset?" ******...ask her what she REALLY expects to happen now that she's had her affairs.

And you know what...don't let her browbeat you into the not discussing the affair. My wife tried the same tactic...and I caved into it somewhat myself. Whenever she brings it up, let her know that it was HER choice to do...and you'll gladly drop the subject...once she finally starts ACTIVELY trying to fix the problems that came out of her bad choices.

I made it clear to my wife that I wasn't going to just let it drop...but at the same time, if we were able to heal from what she did, I would NOT be holding it over her head for the rest of her life. And guess what...it NEVER comes up when we're arguing over something...it's NOT a lever I use to make her feel bad or give in to what I want.

Give this some thought...maybe this will help.

I have started doing that very recently. She is bad about hearing something different that what I say. For example, when I asked her if the air needed clearing because she acted like she was upset with something. When all was said and done, she started fussing that she was sorry she could not act?? like I wanted her too. My gosh, I just was wondering if she needed to clear the air. I was not trying to do anything to her other than that.

Anyway, it is rather freeing to turn it back on her like you said.

I mean if I could make her do something, I would have made her get over this much quicker.

Owl ,

All I can say is right on. I have to have more courage to do what you are saying. I am getting there but I have to do it.

We are off to MC in a few minutes.

Mel and Owl,

I just got in from our MC session and I can see you guys have been busy with HTW. That story is so bad compared to mine. I really feel for him.

I just wanted to check in and let ya'll (a little GA speak <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) know that the session went pretty good, the MC talked to us separately and really focus on my wifes relationship with God and until she quits running from God and softens her hard heart toward her relationship with him, ours is not going to be any better.

I do aggree with this. I think if she would get her vertical relationship right then all her horizontal relatoinship, me included can be worked on. Not that it will happen without any work on her part, but she is so resistent to God at the moment she has to come around to him.

She actually seemed to be in a pretty good mood coming back from MC. I plan on working a little late tonight, part of my 180 and I will see how that goes.

Thanks for all your guys input. BK you have been great also, in fact I wish I could rememeber everyones contribution.

Thanks much all.