I don't know Waiting. I wish you had some way of knowing if it is a legitimate vacation away with her mother.

I do know it sounds like your wife has been the ultimate of selfish for 4 yrs, going on vacations by herself. That is probably where her independant behavior set in.

Everyone needs time away once in a while by themself, like you did with your hunting buddies, but I think her time away without you and the kids got to be a bit much.

It just seems weird to me...one day she is telling you that you could find any woman you wanted if you tried....then the next day she is going on a weekend trip....2hrs closer to OM.

Have you talked to her mother about the trip?

Lady

WOL, could you call your MIL and just have a discussion about this? I wonder if she wouldn't be more receptive to a warm phone call than a letter? Open up the conversation by telling her how much you love your W and how much you could use her help in repairing the damage from her affair.

No I have not. I am not even sure how to approach the subject. The tension between IL's and myself are pretty high at the moment. I feel like I am walking on thin ice.

Honestly this is the way my brother put it to me. He said, "WOL, I know you are not perfect, but you are a good husband, father, earn a good living, take care of your family, etc...... Your WW in her parents eyes can do no wrong and she has probably painted you as being terrible and causing all the great pain in her life"

I really don't know how to overcome that at the moment.

That is certainly possible and something I may have to do. My plans were to talk to both of them last night after the party, but FIL was an impatient rearend and stormed into my office and demanded his phone, so my opportunity was lost. That is why I gave him the letter instead.

I will think about how to do a phone call and what to say and the timing on it.

One thing I have found out in my sitch. Timing and the words I say is everything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

See, this is exactly what I suspect. I think she has demonized you to them in order to rationalize her potential exit from the marriage. This is why I think it is so important for you to open a dialogue with them.

Your FIL felt like you were trashing his D, because he most likely knows nothing about the affair. This is why I think a two way conversation with your MIL may help in healing this breach your W has caused. If you can get your MIL's support maybe she can pave the way with your FIL to get the truth out and resolve this issue with him.,

I am very very angry at your W for causing this breach, WOL. That is shameful!!

Your W is trying to keep you apart from them for a reason.

What was her response to what you said? Did you get the impression that she is going on the trip or isn't going on the trip?


So, what conclusion do you want her to draw from this? I think I know what you mean but I'm afraid that by not explicitly spelling out what you mean, she's going to get the wrong message. Here are two possible messages to glean from this information (there are probably more messages but these jump to mind).

1.) Going or not going is your choice but I will be unhappy if you go.

2.) I really AM telling you that you can't go but I don't want to take responsibility for telling you that so I'm going to use phrases like 'unsafe' in order to send the strong message that you shouldn't go while denyinig that I said any such thing.


Either way, this message seems to fall short in two areas (just going by what you've related here maybe you covered this in your conversation but didn't post it):

1.) What does it mean for you to be unhappy? Does that mean that it will drain your love bank or are you going to act on it somehow? It might be dangerous to assume that she's worried about draining your love bank at this point. Let me remind you that Plan A has to do with meeting her needs without expectation that she meets yours. That doesn't mean being a doormat but it does mean you need to accept increased responsibility for enforcing protective boundaries because you are not to expect that your wife will protect the marital boundaries she might otherwise protect during normal marital relations. So, you'd be unhappy. What, exactly, does that MEAN if anything? Does it mean you'll be cranky for a few days? Does it mean you'll file for divorce? Change the locks? Follow her up to the mountains and bring the kids? Complain? Sit around the house and suffer with worry?

2.) There is no attempt to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution to this issue. You haven't offered her anything that might make you enthusiastic about her going nor have you asked her what would help her be enthusiastic about not going. All you've done is exchange opinions - she thinks she should go; you think she shouldn't. No province has been made to mitigate the hard feelings in either direction when one of you doesn't get what s/he wants. So, based on whether or not you think this is a lost cause (she's going regardless of how you feel) or whether or not you think your opinion will cause her not to go) is going to determine what you offer first.

If you think she's going anyway, then try and think of something, anything that will mitigate the hurt you'll feel. I'm not saying anything will make it 'all right' in your eyes, but maybe there's something you can ask for in exchange because, something is better than nothing. Think along the lines of another counseling session with SH or something after she gets back. Let's face it, if she decides to go, there isn't anything you can do (legally) to stop her. But, rather than just being angry about it, you can use it to stratigically request something from her when she gets back. That's the worst case scenario but worth considering all the same.

The best case scenario is that she decides to stay. IF she does, then you'd best believe that you have some damage control to do. Find out what she'd like from you to mitigate the 'controlled' feeling or bad feelings she has about giving in to your request. Treating the request as 'something she owes you because of her affair' is just going to dig the hole of her negative feelings deeper. This is your chance to champion her feelings and show her that you are listening to what she wants and - while she won't necessarily get everything she wants - that doesn't mean you expect her to just 'suck it up' while you sit there and ignore the fact that she's <angry, resentful, irritated, hurt, etc>. This is the time to show that you're all about action - the action of making this a good relationship for BOTH of you. If she gives; you'll give too.

She probably won't make it easy for you to do this. But by showing her that you appreciate her respecting your feelings, you can make some LB deposits. (I know there's a tendency to want to say "But this is the 'right thing' to do and she shouldn't expect a reward" but that type of attitude is NOT helpful.) The more gracious and appreciative you are of her respecting your feelings, the more positive reinforcement and opportunity you have to demonstrate that her hurt feelings are a high priority in your life.


I'd sit tight. Given the current family dynamics, the last thing you want to be seen as doing is trying to alienate your FIL from your MIL. Can you see how this might be seen as a hostile act? If you made a decision and someone decided to do an 'end run' around your decision by trying to convince your wife instead, how would you feel? Actually, that's exactly the situation that you're in with the phone to OM. You and your wife agreed to no contact and your IL's decided to do an end run around that communication by giving her a cell phone. The last thing you need to do is become the 'pot calling the kettle black.' If you're asking for respect for your marital boundaries the very least you can expect to do is treat other's marital boundaries with the utmost respect - isn't that the crux of the letter to your SIL?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that the letter to your MIL would necessasrily BE a hostile act towards their marriage but you all ready know that your FIL is possibly very, very ill with beginning Alzheimer's. Given his personality, he very well might take it that way.

Mys

Mel I am going to try to find a strategic time and way to talk to my MIL, but I have to really rack my brain so as to not damage anything I have done possitive in her eyes, ie, making up with SIL, speaking to the new BIL (homewrecker), etc....

I just have to find the words and work them out in my head if you know what I mean.

BTW Mel,

I really don't think WW intentionally demonized me. I think it just happened. Maybe that is the way it always happens. Don't know, I think she was just griping like spouse will occasionally do (I am guilty) to someone else it kinda develops a life if its own.

Just wanted to put that out there. I don't think she said. "I have to say this about Husband to divert attention away from me." I think is was more subtle.

Doesn't really matter, but just information.

Mys,

Wow, lots of info to digest. I have printed and will read this on my lunch break. Thanks. I will repond later.

WOL

Mys, I don't think he should give his MIL the letter. Rather, I think he needs to call her up and have a conversation. I am worried that she would see the letter as a hostile act, but if he called her and expressed his concern for his W and his desire to save his marriage, he may be able to open a dialogue and gain an advocate.

I do think he should do everything, within reason, to resolve this breach, rather than letting it fester due to his W's probable demonization. I suspect she has demonized him and spun the facts in order to set the stage for her exit. If the truth comes out, she might be more hesitant about leaving if everyone knows the real story.

WOL, if you decide to do this, I would suggest making a list of talking points so that you can approach her very carefully without making her defensive. It will be important to avoid conveying aggression or controlling behavior; instead she needs to see humility and a real love and concern for your W and family.

I would even open with a request for her help; ask for her guidance and direction since she knows WW so well and loves her. I think if you frame your opening statement correctly, you just might be able to gain her support.

Waiting....I'm sure MIL has heard of your SIL letter. I'm sure she heard some of FIL letter. Maybe a phone call to MIL would be best.

I understand how you feel about the IL's. But at least you have this opportunity to let them know how feel, you're love for your wife, you're desire to stay married and reconcile, that is what is important.

If you get a negative response from MIL, I would just leave it alone.

Lady

Sorry, we were cross posting. I only was referring to giving his MIL the exact same letter as she showed to the FIL. A phone call is probably a better way to handle things for a couple of reasons 1.) it conveys more accurately the depth of his emotion and pain. Letters tend to be a bit clinical and make it easy to ignore strong emotion. While that's helpful, at times, the way to do this is to come across as sincerely asking for help. 2.) it conveys the impression of an 'end run' around the FIL and might be percieved as 'dismissive' of his feelings which is a sure way to get HIS WIFE (MIL) defensive on his behalf. I'm a wife... I think I'd feel defensive if someone did that to my husband even if I agreed with the message.


Yes, but I think the approach need to be less 'gossipy' about other people and focus more on his pain and confusion. The way to avoid the appearence of being controlling is to approach the MIL with humility and instead of telling her what to do in specific terms.. asking for her help. Mmmm.. it would go something like this:

I'm not sure how much you've heard about the trouble between W and I but I really need someone to talk to and I'm hoping you'll be willing to listen. I'm not here to tell tales, I'm here to ask for advice. I really don't know what to do. I'm afraid our marriage is crumbling and I'm trying to stop it and am afraid I'm doing some wrong things. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on what I'm doing wrong or how I can fix this? I'm aware I haven't always been the best husband and maybe some of this falls on me but I just don't want my children to be partially raised by another man. I don't know how to win <Wife's> heart back from this OM. Is there any thing you think I can do to turn this around? Do you think you'd be willing or able to help me?

This type of approach makes it all about Waitingonlove and will most likely tend to spark her concern, care, or sympathy rather than her defensiveness. If he goes in there with a litany of things his wife is doing, I'm afraid he's going to trigger a defensive reaction.

I'm not saying he shouldn't provide the details. If the MIL is receptive to helping then the chances are very, very good SHE WILL PROBE for them and he can answer her questions. If she slams the door in his face and refuses to help, then he's done nothing but convey the impression of a very hurt man.


Very much like you said...

Mys

I'm back but really bogged down catching up for the next few days.

Suggestion - Ever had lunch with just MIL. Just a nice lunch. Not really with a huge agenda...if MIL wants to discuss things O.K. but you just mend fences. It may upset FIL but don't discuss letter, horses, etc. for now just open dialogue with MIL. WW may get upset and try to do damage control by running around asking MIL to detail conversation and the such...making her appear the problem in the marriage.

Interesting thought - My MIL kept trying to guess what was going on in our marriage last spring and she was certain it was I that had/was having an affair.


Mys - excellent points. One alternative I thought should be suggested is WHY THERE. Why can't they go 2 hours in any other direction other than towards OM? I so don't trust WW but if during the course of lunch with MIL it came out that this trip idea was 100% MIL then it is unlikely a scheme planned by WW.

Another POJA discussion on the trip could involve a requirement that MIL be properly exposed to. That MIL, WW and you ought to have lunch or dinner this week to discuss what happened and WHY WW must be accountable for her time and so you can be 98% assured all is on the up and up. Look how she played FIL for the phone...WW won't actively pursue an affair in front of her mother but if mother is niave and uninformed WW can get away with murder right in front of her.

Perhaps with her MIL informed then MIL can do the proper parenting of WW/FWW and you can do more "husbanding".

Mr. Wondering

Mys, I think you just said exactly what I said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even so, I very much do think, as I stated earlier, that he needs to carefully frame his conversation so as not to make MIL defensive. And while he does need to impart the facts, he must do it in a way that will not cause her to defend.

WOL, if you do this, like I would write out an opening statement along with your talking points. I think you could pull this off if you carefully construct your presentation.

Mel, Lady, Mr. W and Mys

Thanks for your advice... Sorry I have been away. Several things have happened since my last post. For one, I was trying to stay away from bumping nellies post. She seems to be in a lot of trouble. I hope that works out. I am very worried.

Also, I talked to my wife at lunch and she was elusive about where she had been. I called her for about 2 hours to see if she was ok. She had come by my office and been crying. She talked to my brothers wife and they cried a lot of stuff out this morning. Anyway, I was worried about her because of her frame of mind.

When I found her she was at her parents. I pulled in the driveway and asked her if she was ok. She said yes and was elusive about her whereabouts and also seemed ticked off at me.

Turns out her Dad called her about the letter and she was hot at me about it. She said I violated an agreement we had not to discuss it with her Dad. I never aggreed to that, but in her mind she says I did. Whatever.... there is a lot of that going around with us. Anyway, we left, she headed home and I back to work. I had a sick feeling about the absence of time. I called her and point blank asked her if I could ask a question and get an honest response. She said this should be fun, go ahead.

I asked her .......

"Where you gone to see the attorney you talked to a few weeks ago about a divorce." She said yes. And there is the beginings of a very long and stressful lunch. I go home and we talk. I try to appeal to the mother in her. Please not to do this to the kids. Try MB principles. She said she has tried, etc........ At the end she says she will think about it. She cried a bunch. Said she did not want to hurt anymore and a lot of other stuff. I told her I did not want her to hurt either. The papers will be filed tommorow at noon according to what she said. Hopefully she will change her mind.

I have to leave to pickup my DS16 at 5:15 and then the whole family is eating out. (yes WW included) I really don't know what to do from this standpoint.

I think the letter and the vacation thing sent her over the edge.

I will check back in later to see what others are saying. I have not been down this road before.

I feel bad even asking for help after reading nellie's stuff. Mine seems minor, but anyway, thanks guys.

PS I am praying for Nellie

Boo hoo, now she's the victim. You won't let her take off for a weekend with her mother...you confront her dad who was unwittingly enabling her affair and Dad has the beginnings of Alzeimher's...how dare you. Now her Mom and Dad are likely completely buying the "you're a controlling SOB story" that she has led them to believe and they are encouraging her to "save herself and get out". Filing for divorce at this time just screams that she is making this out to be "YOUR PROBLEM" and she is just a victim.

I am so sorry your wife is soooo fogged out. By confronting her parents she is now backed into a corner of lies and the divorce petition is just a necessary component to maintain the lies. I suggest you still try to get with MIL and set this straight if possible. If she refuses the truth will come out loud and clear in court and you can send them the transcripts (as long as you refuse to settle outside of court). I also suggest you stay calm...this is not over by a longshot. Remember to be fully prepared for all legal battles on the backside...do not discuss agreements and other with wife outside of court. Make her do all the work and DO NOT take anything you read in the divorce petition personally. It is bound to be full of lies.

Stay as strong and confident as humanly possible. You still will most likely win this thing but either way your children need you to be the strong one and your wife will more easily return to you if you appear strong to her. You are your family's only hero right now.

We are all on your side as well.

Good luck, Mr. Wondering

WOL, just think about what is going on here for a minute. She is so scared for you to tell the truth to her parents that she is threatening divorce? She is so thoughtless that she will threaten divorce if you dare to object to her taking a surprise vacation without you.

WOL, do you not see the message she is trying so hard to send here: interfere with my affair in any way and I will punish you. She does not want you to tell her parents something they supposedly already know. Ask yourself why she would be so fearful of this that she would threaten to destroy her family?

WOL, it is time to get this out into the open so she can no longer use it as threat. I honestly think you should grab her hand and ask her to go over there right now and have an honest, loving discussion about the truth. If she doesn't want to go, get in the car and go by yourself.

But I have no doubt that this is all designed to stop you from exposing to her parents. If you expose she will no longer have to hide from this. And she may be mad for awhile, but she can no longer punish you to keep you away. You have nothing to lose, WOL, you can see what appeasing her has got you: NOTHING.

I'm sorry to hear about this new development. Unfortunately, I'm not very surprised.

This is a very fine, very delicate line to walk - between doing all you can to end the affair (exposure, etc) and also maintaining an attractive marital environment. I have some 'put yourself in her shoes and look at it from her perspective' thoughts about the situation but I really don't want you to feel picked on about the necessary things you've done.

It's not over - not by a long shot. I think the most important thing you can do right now is validate, acknowledge, validate, acknowledge, champion, champion, champion her feelings. You're going to really have to clamp down on your defensive feelings if you want to fill her love bank.

Mys

In the current situation, I think it's just as likely that this type of behavior will only deepen the trench between WOL, his wife, and her family. Her father has seen the letter which had most (all?) of the information in it. I'm not sure him going over there and saying it again is going to mend any bridges. I'd move with caution here.

Mys