Hi Waiting,

Your W reasoning for staying in a seperate bedroom boggles me. I'm wondering if God is allowing the separation to continue because there is something she needs to tell you and has not yet?

There is more to her staying in another bedroom other than she doesn't feel anything.

I only hope God will show you, you need answers Waiting.

You have to have a plan. Your W needs an ultimatum.

Either she begins to commit, and work at it, or she goes and finds a home elsewhere, because living like that in marriage is very unhealthy.

I have an idea on what to tell her. Add or take away as you feel led.

Wife,
You had an EA/PA. I have forgiven you. I want us to have a better marriage, but you are giving nothing. Now you are killing me, causing me to live a very lonely life. It should not be like this. I cannot build this marriage all by myself.

You have until such and such a time to commit and work at this marriage with me because I do not choose to live like this any longer. (your decision to choose a time, a month??? 2 weeks??? etc....)

Waiting you need to now be bold with your wife, not mean, but bold. Let her know you mean what you say.

Waiting your wife is taking extreme advantage of you. She is "stubborn", and any amount of plan A, meeting her needs does not work for her stubborness. She seems almost "spoiled rotten." She needs tough love now. Put your foot down now with her Waiting. That is the only thing that will work for her.

Blessings,
Lady

Lady

I know one thing that probably caused her to move into the other bedroom was her going to an attorney. Now because she is out of the bedroom I think it is easy to stay out until she "feels" something for me. There also may be something about the EA/PA that she hasn't told me. I have often wondered if it was sexual and she just does not have the guts to tell me.

Don't know. I will take you advice to mind and pray about it. Thanks so much.

Yes, I'm thinking the same thing, there may have been something sexual (not sure), but I'm pretty sure there is something there she is not telling you. And she is smart enough to know that feelings don't develop by keeping seperate.

I hope you find the answers. You need them. It's only torture for her to continue in "her" ways.

In the meantime, I know working out helps relieve a lot of tension, as well as prayer...you know.

Get out of the house doing some good activities...be it church, sports, etc....Do things that interest you and the children. No more of putting the total focus of your W.
See if your seperating from her brings her closer. If she sees you are taking your focus off of her, it "might" wake her up.

Lady

I agree with Ladysheep. Something is not right. She is withholding something. She is either protecting you or protecting OM by keeping her secret and it is a wall to recovery.

Even if she is in "No contact" if you snoop with a Digital Voice Recorder you may overhear her telling a good friend about what she is withholding from you. Whatever it is the sooner you jump that hurdle the better. I'd rather snoop and find out now than endure your situation for a few more months in the hopes that she will "see the light" and come clean. It will more likely than not happen in due course but why not push it along if you can?

Mr. Wondering

lady and mr. w. thanks for your opinion. I wish she would spill her guts to me.

I know you don't want to hear this but speaking as an H who had the A, I don't believe they were only kissing! I am also in law enforcement and see this stuff on a regular basis. I have never run across anybody who just wanted to leave. You need to make sure the A is over and then work on her needs and yours!

Bum

Not really, I feel the same and have come to accept that this is a very real possibility. It is just concerning to me that she will not come clean on whatever the problem is. Heck it could be that she plans on bolting after the holidays. Either way, she is holding something back.

Our MC session today would not be considered a success. She just hears things differently than I do when we have a conversation. I told her today I am tired of her saying that I over analize thing she says and does. H*ll, who can blame me for wondering what the heck she is thinking or holding back.

I am trying very hard not to LB. I am also going to ask SH what he thinks about the advice I have recieved from everyone today. Should I go to Plan B? I don't know. It appears others think I should. I know my tank is starting to get low.

I asked my MC today, why would she act jelous about a female in my office when she does not want anything kind of affection from me. It boggles my mind. Kinda like the child who doesn't want to play with a toy but does not want a to play with a toy also. Not that I am a toy or want to be played with by anyone other than her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but it is like she cares but doesn't care. Doesn't make sense at all.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Waiting,

I think it is way too early for Plan B. But by all means start thinking of you!

Do you know what picture your wife has painted for herself if she leaves you? Does she see keeping the house, kids and the company? Does she see a fat financial settlement? A nice cute condo? Now - this sounds cruel but I have no believe in anything called an “amicable” divorce. If it goes so far (God forbid) then you should not humor her with ideas of an uncontested distribution of assets. Make it clear that you would most likely ask your lawyer to get you as much as possible. Not from spite but because all your life you have been working for a comfortable retirement with someone you love by your side.

Must admit I’m not sure how to get this across without LBing big time!

Bigger,

I have given her the info on how difficult divorce would be. She had a talk with an attorney and told him that she thought we could work things out without going to court and having someone else make decisions. I told her real quick, I do marriage, not divorce and her attorney was right. It was a pipe dream to think I would aggree to that and she would be in for a fight.

Also, she knows, I will not move out and she will not keep the house, nor will she get the business and I will fight her for the kids. Hopefully with a 16 yr old boy and 13 yr old boy the courts would allow the boys to decide who they would stay with.

One thing is going to change. After the holidays, I may not Plan B but I am going to be a little more stern in what I allow and not allow. Don't ask I will do that without LBing but I will figure out a way.

My son asked me tonight if I was giving up. I told him no way. I promised him I would never give up all long as we are married and that is my promise to him if no one else.

Well I either made a large setback tonight or a big step forward. I had to carry my son and his friend home tonight from their date and exchanging Christmas gifts. My wife made a nice supper for them and we had a quite evening at home. When I returned I found my wife asleep in the other bedroom and I just about went into orbit. I thought, my God, can't she at least stay up and tell me good night even if she is going to sleep in another bed.

I took my shower and I just could not stand it any longer. I went in the other room and turned on the light and she asked what in the world am I doing.

I told her I just did not understand her and what she was trying to acomplish. I told her that I would at least thought she would have told me good night. I asked her what is she trying to do or accomplish. How does she think she is ever going to have any feelings when there are actual walls between us, physical walls. We have no chance to connect.

I also asked her if she was trying to destroy my feelings of love for her. She looked down and said no. I told her well that is what she is doing. At least when I crushed her feelings for me as she so puts it, I did not do in on purpose and with full knowledge that is was happening. She is doing that to me.

I told her I am doing all I can, can't she at least try. How is she going to feel if she does have feelings for me and all of the sudden I tell her, Oh well, I don't have any for you anymore because you destroyed them. She then told me that would be very frustrating since she would have "worked so hard" and waited on feelings for me.

I told her that is were she is heading if something doesn't change. I told her I rushed home tonight because I thought the evening went well and she seemed to be having a good time. I told her I was thinking, maybe tonight something may change. Maybe I will get some crumbs. Maybe a goodnight kiss, and hug, an I love you or something, but no I came home to her all balled up in another bed with no concern at all for me or our rebuilding or reconnecting.

I told her I thought she was getting used to sleeping alone. I asked her if she preffered sleeping alone or did she want to sleep with me in our bed. She said she did not prefer to sleep alone and wanted to come to our bed but not before she has feelings. I then told her, well be careful, because mine are being crushed now.

Like I said, I either blew it or made some progress. Only time will tell.

WOL

Waiting, really, you need to talk with SH and most importantly do exactly what he says to do.

My natural inclination as I said some time ago is to do something about her independent behaviour. She's quite comfortable at the moment and I would be wanting to rock her boat.

Basic MB 101 dictated 15 hours of undivided attention per week where you focus on meeting each others prime emotional needs wether you feel like it or not and evenually the love returns. It doesn't happen by living seperately under the same roof. The word for that is Emotional Divorce - that's what she is doing.

I'd be asking her to commit to the above or find somewhere else to live - but that;s just me and I'm not in your shoes and I am in recovery.

Just my 2c but listen to SH

If you are still up then go get some sleep. Your statements and actions tonight I perceive as a step forward. Welcome to the recovery tango. You demonstrated to her you got some fight in you. You were strong with your statements and setting out some boundaries. I think tomorrow you should dance a little back on the anger and ask her simply and repeatedely..."what is your plan". Recovery, divorce, isolation, whatever. Calmly seek the truth (if there is more to obtain). If she is unsure you may add that you know of a successful recovery plan yourself if she is interested learning about it or refer to MB if she already knows and offer it as a solution to her inability to move.

Then have patience and let your comments tonight and tomorrow soak in through Christmas.

I'll perhaps have more to offer tomorrow after I get some sleep.

Mr. Wondering

BTW - her jealousy comments the other night...I saw it more as a hurtful thing she could say to you when she was feeling a little (or a lot) insecure of herself. It is hard being the WS in recovery and sometimes the justifications/rationalizations poke through and they go back to blaming you for their inappropriate choices. Then they look at you as being smug and righteous fighting for the marriage and calling them all wrong, evil, possessed and they become indignant. She was not really being jealous she was just needling you. On the other hand or at the same time there is/was perhaps a little jealousy because she fears you may have a revenge affair so the comment was a warning shot at you that she knew better than to say directly. Just my best guess.

Have a good day Waiting.....Hoping for the best, that your conversation with your W got through to her.

Lady

I agree with the Wonderings...I think what you did is the right thing.

Too many people come here in 'placate mode'. I know that MB says to never put down ultimatums, but I don't completely agree with that. I think that you DO have to let your WS know that there is a limit to what you'll take from them..."This far, and no farther." as poster on another forum put it to me.

She needs to understand that this is NOT all about HER feelings here...and she's been totally acting like that's ALL it's about up to this point. You've let her know that your feelings in this matter too...she's finally hearing that you're not going to just sit here and let her dictate how all of this works. That at some point, you MIGHT NOT be there for her after all.

My wife came to that realization too...she'd treated me like doodoo one too many times while she was at the tail end of withdrawl, and hit MY final point. That day I went to our EAP lawyer program...took a free hour with a lawyer to learn the divorce laws and process in our state. And that nite when she started on me again, I let her know that I had finally started to realize that we were headed there if things didn't change. I told her that I loved her, but I was not willing to accept how things were between us any longer. I could tell that she finally saw that there could be and end between us...for the first time, she realized that she COULD push me to a point where I would end things.

Later that nite was when she made her final choice to reconcile our marriage.

I think you need to make it clear to your WW/FWW that if she doesn't start thinking outside of herself, that she may soon find that all she'll HAVE is herself. The time for her self-indulgence is OVER...now it's time to either roll up her sleeves and pitch in to help clean the mess, or live in it forever.

I think that MR W is right on the other part too...time to ask her point blank...alright, so what is YOUR PLAN on how we proceed here. We're not going to coast along hoping things will get better...it's time for action. Make sure that she understands that SHE has a stake in fixing things too...not just you.

BK, Lady, Mr. W and Owl,

Thanks so much. I needed some reassurance I guess. My self respect for myself was at the end of it rope. In fact I had very little. Our children are tired of her ways and I am too. I still love her very much, but there is a limit before I begin to loose my love for her and I told her so last night.

Maybe my timing was bad (after mid-night) but you no what, in the grand scheme of things, my bad timing to make my point pales in comparison to what she is putting our marriage and family through.

I know she heard me loud and clear last night. She told me so last night and this morning. Of course she was not happy about it but she knows it. She actually had the gall to tell me that last night was "all about me and no one else and my being mad and that time of the night was not the right time to tell her all that". I stop her in her tracks verbally and told her the following:

Honey, for one thing, I was not mad. I was hurt. 2nd, maybe my timing was bad, but I did not see any other time in the next 24 hours to be able to convey my hurt to you. 3rd, maybe it was all about me last night, but the last 4 months have all been about you.

She absolutely had nothing to say. When I was leaving the house, I told her I was sorry about the timing again but not for what I said. I was rubbing her back. She turned to me and hugged me for several seconds, buried her face in my neck, kissed my neck and teared up a bit.

I asked her if she was ok and she said yes, just frustrated and feeling stupid. I never asked her about what.

I then left for our office luncheon.

I think she now (for better or worse) knows that there is only so much I can take. I told her that if she was being truthful with me about wanting us to move forward and build a better marraige then it would be prudent for her to be sure my feeling for her are still there when she "gets" ready to begin the process.

I am not done on working on things. I don't think it is time for Plan B, but I am not going to be a doormat either.

It is also amazing and Mel and I discussed this a long time ago. When we did EN's, domestic support, financial support etc... was not a big issue for her. She said it was not a big deal how much money I made. Mel said I'll bet she would freak out if I quit my job because I did not feel like working anymore.

Well guess what, apparantly I have not been picking up my cloths and making my solo bed the last couple of weeks and she let me know how much that bothered her. Well now, when I am not being Mr. Domestic it does matter. Hum, I just found that really interesting. All of the sudden something that was not a bid deal is now a big deal.

Oh well, I guess I better start back picking up after myself and make my bed. (frankly I was p*ssed off and decided if it was not her bedroom anymore, I was going to keep it the way I liked it. Now hopefully she appreciates the way I used to keep things.

Waiting, please notice what OWL did above and it seems you are in the process of getting there and doing this yourself whether you know it or not. Owl's wife, my wife and perhaps your wife continued to hold on to the justifications and rationalizations from the affair into recovery. It may be a defense mechanism to handle the guilt. As the J & R's are being broken down and the full guilt hits them they often withdraw into self pity counterbalanced by anger and resentment towards you. After all you neglected them and why now are you being this great guy. Why not before the affair?..."It's just as much your fault so just back off and let me sulk in misery".

But I hope you can see your fed up response last night and Owl's fed up response to his wife is directly saying "I AM STANDING UP TO YOUR WITHDRAWAL, NEGLECT AND DO NOTHING ATTITUDE". What they need to internalize themselves (you still can't teach them) is this new fighting attitude of yours is EXACTLY the appropriate way THEY should have stood up to your previous withdrawal, neglect, and failure to meet needs PREVIOUS to the affair. Today your wife may still say she gave you hints or warnings and said this or that but she needs to understand she NEVER DIRECTLY confronted the issue as you are today. She/They should have stood up for themselves against you and not avoided conflict and sought solace in the arms of another man. Hopefully, with this thought process beginning they will get to the point where they discover that 50% of the Pre-affair relationship problems were their fault too and then eventually that the affair was 100% their fault. This is often what it takes for a WW to at least jump on board with reconciliation and recovery. Then when they fall back in love with you, you will finally get their full apology.

Just my thoughts today on the process. Like I said last night, you pushed a little last night. Calm down and back off for a few days. Then push it again. Think "recovery tango".

Mr. Wondering

Her tone on the phone today has been different. She almost has seemed like she was a little more "caring" for me. Comments like be careful. You ok. You going to be able to bo the the Rx , if not I can.

It is strange. I don't want to make anymore of it than it really is, but she seems to be thinking anyway.

We go to dinner with our best friends tonight. Annually we do this at Christmas and go exchange gifts, have dessert at our house. That will be interesting tonight to see how she acts.

I don't expect her to come to the bedroom tonight, but if she does I am not asking her to leave this time. I will take what ever comes my way.

Yes. Take what you can get - don't push her away. It indicates she is making an effort even if it is only on her terms.

My wife tried to push me to the office floor when she came back. I refused. She only lasted one night in there before we were sleeping together again.

Last night we had a great time with our friends. We went to dinner with our kids and returned to our house for dessert, gifts and talking. We wound up watching old tapes of past Christmas events and birthday party's. It was so funny. (we have all aged and gotten a little larger also <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

After our friends left we went to bed. I was in pain from torn muscle and my wife was pretty compassionate. She prayed for me and offered to massage my hip. She did and then asked my son to come pray for me also. Shortly after that she came back in our bedroom and asked me to call her if I needed anything and told me good night. She went to bed in the other bedroom after that.

Oh well. So much for hoping. We will see how it goes today. We are actually getting along pretty good. Just no real physical contact other than a brief hug or kiss on the neck.


BK, I wish she would get tired of being in the other bed. I just don't know what else I can do. I am going to wait until after the holidays and talk to SH to find out what to do from this point forward if she doesn't start meeting me halfway.

I have needs too and she knows that. I think she cares. I just don't like the way I feel when I think about my needs not being meet. I find myself thinking about what am I going to do if she doesn't come around and we do get divorce. I don't like thinking like that. I don't want to think and wonder about other women as dates /or mates. I know the thoughts are not right but I will see another women and wonder. What would it be like to be married to someone else. I just don't like those thoughts. I love my wife very much and prior to all this was completely satisfied with who she was and our marriage.

I know now it was not as good as I thought it was, but ignorance is bliss sometimes.

Just really struggling with those thoughts and felt I needed to confess to someone.

Please forgive me friends for admitting to that, but I feel better knowing I let it out.

waiting on love

Right now, you are in Plan A, I believe.

Plan A is a plan that is designed to seperate a spouse from an affair and also leave a good impression of the marriage in the WS's mind. Plan A is when the BS (or the WS..actually) works on meeting the WS's emotional needs in marriage without expecting his/her needs to be met in return.

Plan A is NOT plan Doormat where you suffer silently as your spouse tramples all over your feelings. Plan A is not plan "Be Nice" where you are afraid to irritate your spouse so you don't expose or refuse to be honest. Plan A is showing what type of relationship you are willing and able to sustain from THIS DAY forward. Oh yes, and not expecting your spouse to reciprocate for the moment.

I see you doing so many things right. I see you NOT being a doormat. I see you NOT executing a "Be Nice" plan. I'm glad you were honest the other night about how much this is hurting you.

I also see you piling on expectations that your wife knows what your needs are and should meet them. That is necessary for a sustainable marriage, but right now, it's not adhereing to your Plan A.

What I think you can expect right now is for your wife to work towards making a decision. At some point in the future, you're going to be lead into Plan B which is when you take a step back and say "This is what I have to offer. Continuing to work at this while you don't is just too painful and is killing my love for you. I'm going to respectfully withdraw while you make a decision. and then you withdraw ALL EN meeting behavior from your spouse.

You're working with an expert, Steve Harley. Follow his plans. Manage your expectations regarding her meeting your needs - I do understand that it's painful and hard. And, that is information you definitely need to share with Steve. But, right now, all those expectations are doing is building a bunch of harmful resentment. Let go of them for now, if you can. Work on your self talk.

Oh yes, and keep coming here for support.

Mys