Surely she would understand, right? I mean, you shouldn't be forced to do something you don't feel like doing. Maybe your heart just isn't into it....

I wonder what would happen if you stopped bringing home a paycheck because "your heart wasn't into it?"

Oh.... Melody fed me the same "line" when I came here as a BS 3 months ago....and I wouldn't let my H touch me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But it worked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lady

can you tell me what a 180 is. I am not sure I know exactly. is it when you stop meeting WS needs? I am open to anything at this point.

waiting, I don't think you should do the 180, and neither would SH suggest it, but I do just want you to consider what I said about meeting her needs. I think you should continue to meet her needs, but there is a glaring disparity of obligation here. Why is meeting your needs an option, that is contingent upon her feelings, but meeting her needs is an obligation?

Waitingonlove,

I was just kidding on the 180 stuff....it's not for your sitch.


Lady

Mel, I am not sure why she sees meeting my needs the way she does. I wish I did understand. What do you see?

Hey guys, thanks for everybody chipping in the last couple of hours. I am sorry for the brief comments. I was at church and using my phone and typing comments is tedious work at best, plus I was trying to pay attention.

Mel, I don't know why she sees it as an option and I also don't know why see just would not start out slow with hand holding or something like that. I know she is not totally doing without affection because both our boys are very loving and hug her, cuddle with her, etc.... so her affection bank is plenty full, but not by me. Of course I know it is not the same thing but it is similar.

Should I mention the paycheck and job thing to her or just let is pass?

Texas,

What is going Stealth?

Sorry guys for asking so many technical questions but I don't know all the lingo yet.

I see that she feels entitled to have her needs met but feels it is an option to meet yours. I would be interested to know if she feels its ok for you to not earn any money in January because you don't feel like it. Would it be ok if you did nothing with the kids next year because you don't feel like it? [family committment]

If meeting your needs is entirely contingent upon her feelings du jour, shouldn't meeting her needs be contingent on your feelings?

Or would she call you a bum if you quit earning money and didn't spend any time with your kids?

I would suspect she would be pretty pi**ed off and call me something. I know she would at least be as frustrated with me as I am her at the moment.

Waiting, how's it going?

I've been thinking about you.

I lived by Romans 8:28 when my wife left me.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Waiting,
what I meant by going stealth is that you should continue to try and find out about no contact or contact, whatever it may be. It is extremely important that she not know you are checking up on her so to speak. And that means not asking about contact either. Dont ask but keep checking. And be very careful about this. If contact is continuing, and you arent asking about it and not showing any indication that you think contact is occurring, she will get sloppy. It always happens. They cant cover all their tracks and when they are deeply into the fantasy, they will eventually make a mistake while feeding the addiction.
You must do this in order to know your enemy and know exactly what you are dealing with. But above all.....stop asking about contact. Serves no purpose in my mind.

Blessings,
WCNT

BK,

Thanks for asking. I have been doing pretty good until yesterday at noon when she told me she did not want to talk to SH today. We had a typical relationship talk that went no where and I told her I was going to talk to SH anyway and do what he instructed as I thought the program made sense.

I appreciate the verse also. It is one of my favorites as well in fact I have quote it back to God several times through this whole ordeal.


Texas,

Thanks for the info on stealth. I agree and will follow that. SH even said the same thing. He wondered if she is in C but also said it could be that she is just taking a little longer. I will not mention it though. It does make sense that they do get sloppy.

I am going to update later on another post about my conversation with SH and what my wife said afterwards. It is fairly lengthy and as someone told me I should look for what good information I can find among her Babble because usually in the Babble there could possibly be a shred of something that could benefit me to be able to know how to meet her needs better and avoid trouble also.

Thanks for everyones support. It really means more than you can imagine. When the post come flying in non stop at a time when I am really down like yesterday evening, it lifts my spirits.

Thanks again.

I had the appointment with SH and he was not shocked that my wife was not in attendance. I did learn a valuable lesson from yesterdays relationship talk with my wife that SH pointed out. My wife kinda trapped me in a line of questioning about SH's assignment for her. She wanted to know if I thought SHE should do Affection or SF if she had no feelings for me. I tried to avoid answering the question but she kept forcing the issue.

(Now remembering a conversation we have had before about a year ago where we both admitted that we have allowed SF before when one of us was either tired or did not particularly want to, we both kinda laughed about it because she thought it only happened to her and we both reasoned that it was fine to do that as long as doing it did not make us unhappy or angry. Kinda like looking after each other or putting the other persons before oneself. Both of us agreed that was OK and it had worked in the past, both we both agreed that it was not a large percentage of the time compared to when we both were 100%)

So remembering all that, I prefaced my answer with above and asked her if she recalled that conversation. She of course did. I said then what is the difference now. She said that while she enjoyed it then that allot of times it left her feeling "hollow". What the crap does that mean? If she has a great experience and I do too, how does one feel "hollow"?

Anyway, SH said when she wants to discuss things SHE should be doing for me, I should not answer her. Give her the politicians answer of no answer. Say, something like, I am trying to understand things better and learn myself, maybe that is something you should ask SH next time you talk to him. I wished I had thought of that at the time, but I did not.

SH wants us to complete the Rec. Q. He really wants me to concentrate on things we both have an interest in and if she does not, avoid it, as an activity, as a couple. So that is that on my talk with SH. I will meet with him again in 2 weeks.

When I got back to my office, my wife was there and wanted to small talk about some stuff at 1st, and then she said she thought the air needed cleaning between us, that after yesterday at noon, we neither one seemed to want to talk about what happened. That is when she told me she did not want to talk to SH today. She also was curious about my conversation with SH.

I told her that I was pretty down yesterday about her not talking to him today, but I am over it now. She implied I was mad but I told her no way was I mad, but I was hurt. She admitted she was mad.

We talked that out some and then she started in on how she was tired of how she felt and something had to give.

On Tuesday she told our MC (not SH) that she had actually thought of how to end her own life and that it would be an easy way to get out of the pain. We have had many conversations about this before (even 4 yrs ago) and I pressed her to be sure she would not and she said certainly she would not, that it would be the cheap way out but devastating to our boys, me and family and friends and just knew that it would be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I then told her I had the same type of thoughts, but did not consider it because of the same issues. She acknowledged that she knew I must also struggle with that and wishes that I did not. I told her I pray my way through it and just shake myself loose from those thoughts and would never do that either.

I told her also what motivated me to not end my own life is not only the pain it would cause, but also the wonderful things I would miss out on if God did not take me from this earth early.

Grandchildren to enjoy with her, seeing our kids through college, know our boys future wives, retirement and travel with her, etc.... Her comment was while I can see those things in the future as happy things, SHE cannot see them with me and being happy. She says the only way she can see those things "at the moment" with me in the future is by pretending and faking it. She says she is not faking it anymore so for that to happen she has to have some feelings.

She said other than our kids, that her life pretty much sucked. I asked her was she sure and she said yes. She asked me, doesn't mine suck at the moment. I said yep, at this very point in time things are not great, but I would not say that my life sucks. I told her I have a beautiful and wonderful wife that God has blessed me with, 2 great children with no health problems, God has blessed us with a very good business, lots of friends and good family and a good church and fairly good health.

Then I mentioned some people that are going through some terrible times right now with either lost children, spouses , terrible disease etc.... and said I think there lot in life right now sucks. She thought for a moment and said I was right. Her life does not suck and it is all about perspective.

She said she was told by our MC Tuesday that only she could make herself feel better and do something about her thoughts and no one else. She said she knows that and is going to do something about it. I asked her if her solution was to leave me and she told me " that is not what she said".

We talked a little more and then she told me "she was going to feel better and figure out how". I asked her how and she said she did not know. She said "either she will get feelings back for me or she is out of here" (meaning the marriage).

I told her that was no news, but I did ask her if she had a time table on how long she was waiting on feelings and she said with a 'sigh' no she does not have a time table.

That was pretty much it and then shortly after that she left for an appointment to get her nails done. One thing she did do for me, my back is killing me and has been for 2 weeks. She made me an appointment to get a massage. I go at today for my first spa massage. At least she cared enough to worry about how I felt physically I guess.

That is my update Guys. Where do you think I stand?

I am teetering on worry. I haven't decided is a positive move or several steps back occur this morning. I did not act needy, pathetic or begging with her this morning but please read the last 12 hours for what I am taking about. I don't know if she is about to walk out the door or this is a breakthrough.
.......................

Last night 12/1 we went to a Christmas Parade as a family in our town. It was pretty fun and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. Wife seemed happy and when we got home for moderately talkative. Both of us feel asleep in the den watching TV after the kids went to bed. We both woke up about 1am and went to bed.

As I went to bed I just gently rub her back for no more than 3 seconds and said good night and kissed her on her hair. (as SH said I need to continue to do her top 4 EN but very slowly.)

She tossed and turned all night after that. I got up and carried the kids to school and went to work.

My wife showed up at my office this morning. She had a hair appointment at 9:30 and stopped by to talk a few minutes.

She said she needed to talk and does not have anyone she can talk to about how she feels except Lorie our MC. She does not want to talk to her family or friends about any of this. I said I understand and am glad she came to me to talk.
She asked me if I was frustrated at all last night. I asked her what she meant and she said she tossed and turned all night and just was frustrated. She hates nighttime now. She told me she had a good time and the parade and it would have been nice to have had some feelings for me watching the parade and cuddle in the cold, but she just did not. She said last night she wanted to have feelings for me and rollover and have some affection and feelings of romance but she just does not and she is frustrated and can't do it anymore.

I asked her what that meant and she said she just could not do it anymore. I told her maybe she needed to tell some of this to SH. She emphatically told me she would not talk to SH again. I said fine that I am not telling her to, I just suggested it.

I reminded her the door was open and she could leave anytime. I did not want her to leave but no one was making her stay. She said she did not say she wanted to leave but she knew that. She asked me what was she supposed to do, just hang out indefinitely to see if feelings for me come back? I told her we have really only been following MB for 3 weeks and out of 21 yrs that is a short period of time. She said she has been trying for 5 yrs (1st EA and time in MC) and she came back and she feels like I tricked her by changing and then going back to the way I was before. I told her I was not following MC principles then and I know so much more now and am still learning, besides I was the one that was responsible for her loosing her feelings for me, not her. There was nothing she could do. She said she wished I had tried sooner, now she doesn't even care. (She is crying when she is telling me all this). I told her I understand and hear her.

She said she is at least not mad at me anymore. Just sad about the situation. ( I hope that is progress, SH told me yesterday that it is very common for WS to feel hopeless as they make progress) She said she read something Dr. Phil wrote yesterday that said the opposite of Love is not Hate but Apathy. I told her I her what she is saying but I don't believe allot of what Oprah and Dr. Phil have to say.

She then said she just cannot continue to live feelings like this. She wants to have feelings for me but does not (doesn't sound like apathy to me) and just can't take it anymore. I told her, fine she can go home and pack her stuff anytime she wants to and the door is open. As soon as I said that her facial expression changed immediately and she got very angry. She said, I am not going to pack anything. I said, well do you expect me too. She said no. That is not what she is saying. ( I am confused ???) I said why are you so angry and she told me she was sorry, she was not really angry just frustrated and talked about the last 5 yrs and tricked stuff again. I said I am doing all I can to learn to be a better husband and be the kind of husband you needed and that was my fault.

We pretty much ended the conversation as she had to go to her hair appointment at her sisters salon.

I just hope the sister does not destroy any progress.

Does anyone see progress here?

If she is no longer mad at me about past issues, but just sad is that progress?

This is really the 1st time that she has brought up wanting to have feelings for me, albeit she says she doesn't and then follows it up with she just doesn't care anymore? It sounds like conflicting statements.

Is most of the babble and is there any positive information in here for me to use?

I apologize for the length of the post, but I wanted to provide as much detail as possible.

waiting, I know all this alarms you, but her state of mind is not different frm most recovering WS. They feel hopeless because they don't "feel" anything for the BS yet. But those feelings do slowly come. I would stick with it and avoid placing any expectations on her. Don't try to convince her of anything, just DO your best to meet her needs when the opportunity presents itself. And I really like how you continually remind her that she is not trapped. She has choices and cannot blame anyone else for them. Nor can she blame anyone but herself if she chooses to "pretend" or act fraudulently. Shame on her if she does that. I actually think it is better for your relationship that she is being forthright instead of acting the conflict avoider. At least this way you know where you stand.

And I am NOT surprised she is avoiding Steve. Steve has her #, which makes her uneasy. He will guide you through this, though. Hang tight, waiting and be patient. This is hard, but the payoff will be well worth it.

Mel

I am so glad to hear what you and others familiar with my sitch have to say. I am hoping this is progress.

She called me this afternoon and wanted to have relationship talk and we pretty much talk about the same thing. I reassured, she basically cried and said she wanted to shake me and did not understand why I did not react before. She says we worked on this before and I went back to old ways.

I told her we only learned to argue and clear the air. I am just know learning how to love and how to avoid loosing love. She seems to be really thinking things through.

I see it as a possitive that she is not angry with me anymore and just sad. Too me that seems like the progression to something else. If she is sad it means she mourns something, doesn't it.

She is absolutely for sure not going to talk to SH or do any MB stuff. I am not sure she would pull up the website right now. I really wish she would. I would love for her to read some of the posts of other WS's that have recovered.

Thanks so much Mel. You have been great and always you are very wise and to the point.

God's Blessing on you and your family.

WOL

I think she has been sad all along but has been so defensive that she used the anger as a protective wall. Most WS are initially angry and it is a defense mechanism. But I think she is showing you a truer face now than she has in the past.

If she can be angry at you, then she can make you the bad guy instead of her. So I view the lack of anger as a good sign. With no anger, she is forced to face herself and that has to be very hard for her.

Additionally, you have retired your position as head jailer, which shifts the responsibility for herself back to HER. That can't be easy when you have been a prisoner - in your own mind, at least - for all of your adult life. All of this newfound freedom probably scares the ****** out of her because she has just realized what all newly freed persons recognize: with freedom comes responsibility.

And don't fret about her refusal to work MB principles. That will probably all change after she gets out the fog and realizes that she truly wants to stay.

You are probably are right about the sadness being the way she truely is and using the anger to cover it up.

I can tell that she does not like having to take ownership of her staying. It is strange how before it was my keeping her. Now she is telling me the only reason she is staying at this point is for the kids sake.

She also told me this evening that she had to get some sleep and she was going to sleep in another bedroom tonight and would continue to do so until she decides to change.

I told her no problem, she can decide whatever she wants to do. I am not telling her what to do on anything.

We all went to dinner tonight, 2 DS, DS's friend and 1 nephew. She was especially talkative and seemed to have a good time. What is crazy she seems to be able to interact with me in public but once everyone else is gone like at night alone, she shuts down. In public it is like it has always been, but alone at home, she is like a zombie.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I guess I will be solo in bed for awhile. Things could be worse.

I am a little concerned about next week. I have to leave to go out of town next tuesday night and will not return until Sunday. I hope timing is not bad on this trip.

It is after midnight and just got back from taking my sons girlfriend home. When DS and I returned I was hoping maybe my wife had changed her mind and gone to bed in our bed. To my disappointment she is in bed in the other bedroom but our sweet and loving youngest son is sleeping with her. I can't bear to go to bed alone.

I know this is probably the beginning of things getting better but I am deeply sad that it has come to this. My heart breaks for what we are missing. Our 21st anniversary is 12/15. I never thought we would be in this shape. It always happened to others. We talked about how terrible it would be to go through what others have gone through. Many our friends. Even our own family members. She even counseled with her own sister during her affair and her sister said the exact same thing about her marriage and husband that she is now saying about me. What is so mind boggling is that my wife at the time told her own sister the same things everyone else is telling her. Now she can't even listen to her own advice.

When I reference before her own advice she gave, she now says it was wrong for her to give input on something she knew nothing about and had not been there before.

I am just really down at the moment.

Well today has gone ok, but I am a bit disturbed about something. Our 2 DS's and I are at home stringing the lights on our Christmas tree while my WW has gone to her cousins wedding. It is a wedding, dance, supper, etc.... She did not want me to go with her.

Also tonight her parents are having their big Christmas party blowout party at their house. Each year it is a big dr*nkfest where many very socialable and at the end of the party there are always people hanging out late. My wife is a very attractive women and she recieved and very nice looking suit aas a birthday gift this year. She looked wonderful on the way out the door tonight for the wedding. As she was leaving, she told me if the wedding is over early she will probably stop off at her parents party.

What bothers me about that is she has been hit on almost every year at this party by drunk men usually. I am concerned that she would go to this party without me knowing what has happened in the past. Too me I would never do that to her, but I guess I should not expect anything else from her at this point. It just hurts my feeling greatly. I did not LB though. I know she knows I am not happy about it. Especially since I offered get dressed up and go to the party with her.

Am I wrong about my feelings or just being jelous? Part of me feels like I am being over protective and jelous but another part of me feels like in our current sitch she should not do what she is most likely going to do tonight.

I guess this is the freedom that I told her she had the last few days.