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I am also starting to wonder if her attitude has something to do with breaking NC. It's possible - only you can answer that. From what you have posted though it seems to me that she is threatened by the thought of having to be accountable and also having to change. As I said, Harley hit a nerve and she is just reacting to it. Hopefully in time she will know he is right - her reaction indicates to me she knows he is right and is not ready to face the consequences of that yet. She is also pointing out things you will have to give up as well in an effort to get you to abandon SH as well. She's just reacting to all that I am sure.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Good morning everyone,
Yesterday evening as you can imagine was rough after seeing her email to me. I carried the kids to church and she really did not want to come. The kids asked her to come also.
When I got home she was in disengage with me. Fine and happy with the kids, but once they went to bed, she shutdown. We watched Lost on TV and as soon as that was over, we went upstairs to go to bed. When I got out of the shower she was in the other bedroom.
I know I should not have and I probably messed up, but I went in the other room to ask her what she was doing. She said she just wanted to sleep and did not want to stay awake at night feeling guilty for not providing affection etc...
The good news is she told me she did complete her assignmet for SH but the bad news is she would not and could not do EN's 1) and 2). I told her I understood and thanked her. She also told me that SH asked her if she liked SF, she seemed offended and said of course, loves it, but just refuses to "do it" without feelings of intimacy. I know at times because prior to this, we both had admitted to one another that we have had SF only for the benefit for the other one when we really did not feel like it. It is like she has totally changed.
Because of above, I then asked her what was there anything she wanted to tell me that she has not. I wanted to give her one more chance to tell me if the affair resulted in sex and she just did not tell me. She got frustrated and told me no. I told her I did not understand why she wanted to stay in another room and treat me like some stranger. She basically got mad and came into the bedroom. She tossed and turned early on and said her chest hurt, etc... That was our evening.
Woke up this morning and as I left she is just laying in bed gazing out the window looking at nothing in particular.
I hope this is just the roller coaster ride everyone talks about. Too me, especially if you read her email, she seems to be getting further away.
I really do not know her at the moment. It is like she is a different person. Even our kids say the same thing.
I guess I should take it as a possitve that she did her"homework" for SH even though she said she did not like him anymore.
Can anyone speak with experiance to what ground I am walking on at the moment. Is this recovery, still withdrawel, what do you call it? Progress?
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Well, the only good thing about the withdrawl in my wife's case was that while she was angry and spitting nails at me most of the time, she was at least admitting to me what was on her mind. She was cold and distant and angry, which sounds a lot like your wife.
And I didn't even consider SF during that time...the first week after she came home, we both slept on couches in the living room. I'll never forget laying there at night listening to her cry herself to sleep, then hoping to manage an hour or two of sleep myself.
After that, we rearranged the house so that she had a bedroom to herself all the way upstairs, and I had one all the way downstairs. She was insistent that we do this, since she 'felt uncomfortable' since she slept in a T shirt and undergarments...and didn't feel right about me being in the room with her like that. I didn't understand, but didn't fight the issue that much either.
That lasted a few weeks...and then finally one night when she was complaining about her back hurting, I gave her a massage that lead to us starting SF...but she couldn't do it because she felt like she was betraying OM (whom she'd never met in person...go figure). The following nite was when she decided to really begin working on things with me...and we resumed sleeping together ever since.
So I know she pined for OM, but since we did the in house seperation thing, there wasn't any kind of contact at all at nite or in the morning.
During this time, we talked...a lot. We talked about all that was wrong in the marriage, talked about what she would need to do in order for her to live on her own. We didn't talk about the A itself that much, just more on what our next steps were going to be. She was pretty insistent that she find out what it was like on her own...and then started telling me that she hadn't made up her mind if she was going to choose me or OM. It was after one of those discussions, followed by her deciding to get an apartment with a year lease for our 'seperation' that I finally decided I wasn't going to seperate with her for a year. I told her if that's what she wanted, to file for a divorce, because I wasn't going to live for a year to wait and see if she was going to choose me or not.
It was actually that discussion that triggered her to realize that she was going to lose me if she didn't wake up.
In your case friend, I would almost consider doing some '180' type stuff...pull back from her some. Let her start worrying about what YOU are feeling for a change. I did some of this as well...started to withdrawl from my wife and 'give her space'...it scared the heck out of her. Perhaps...just perhaps, that might start to get her to realize what she's risking here. She SAYS she wants a D...but has she truly given it ANY thought? What she would do, where she would live, how she would pay the bills? My wife didn't think about it until after d-day...and began to realize what a challenge she faced.
Hang in there man.
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Thanks Owl. I also just got an email from her that is pretty telling. Hopefully she is being truthful in it. I got up this morning and determined this was the day I am going to get rid of all my anger toward you as well as the unforgiveness in my heart. I have struggled with this for about as long as I can stand it - over 20 plus years.
I get so upset when I think back on so many things that I feel were stolen from me. I do not blame you alone for these things. I allowed you to keep me from doing things I wanted to do. I allowed you to tell me what to do, and then I just did it even when I had resentment about it. This resentment has continued to build into a volcano.
I know that I said I was over these things 4 or 5 years ago, but it was simply not true. Just because I have made the decision to forgive does not mean that I am just "over it." The fact remains that those things took place, and I permitted them to do so.
I know you think I am making this process too complicated. To me, it is not just a simple thing to suddenly have passionate loving feelings. They are just not there. I am tired of living like this - pretending to feel one way and having to put on a mask everywhere I go like the happy little wife. I am sick to death of being a fake.
I am sick and tired of being analyzed, probed and prodded for feelings. I am tired of crying until my eyes are nearly swollen shut. I am sick of feeling like I have to do what you want even when it is not what I want to do. I am furious with myself that I got up and went to bed last night just because you told me to do so. That was NOT what I wanted, and I broke down to just stop your griping. I guess that is how I learned to "shut down." It is easier to just do that and give-in instead of continuing to fuss with you. Maybe if I had learned to stand up to you 26 years ago, things would be different right now.
There is no way that I am going to live by these rules and regulations for the rest of my life. I am NOT going to have to agree with you on everything you do, and I am not going to wait for your approval on everything I want to do. I am a grown woman, and an individual. It has already been established that we have interests that both of us do not share. I have no intention of quitting anything again just because you don't like it. I have NO intention of wanting you to quit something just because I don't enjoy it. Just like the hunting example I gave you yesterday. Can you not see how ridiculous that is? I will NEVER like to hunt, but that does not mean you shouldn't go do it. That is just crazy.
I regret that you feel I am addicted or obsessed about something, but I will not deny that I truly enjoy horses and horse shows. I am not sorry for that interest, and I vehemently deny that it is an obsession. You spend much more time with baseball than I ever spent with horses. You just continue to see things differently when they apply to you.
I wish I could flip a switch and suddenly feel the things you want me to feel, but that has not happened. I am tired of feeling like this. I am tired of having my every move analyzed. Emotionally and physically something has to give very soon because I can't take this much longer. Below is my response to her Got your email and read it several times. Thanks for sharing you thoughts with me. I don't want you to quit anything. I never said that. At the moment I am just wanting us to work on our marriage. That is all, nothing more, no hidden agenda on my part. Once again, thanks for telling me what you have.
I love you and I understand what you are saying. Please don't look around the "corner" as Steve Harley said. Thoughts anyone?
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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OK...so have you asked her EXACTLY which 'rules and regulations' she can't live with? My wife spouted some stuff like this...but could never come up with specifics that I couldn't either make her see were normal marriage boundaries that ANY couple would have, or were just completely fantasy stuff that were ludicrous. Ask her to tell you exactly what it is she feels she can't live with...what rules are you offering that are so unreasonable. (nice side note to this...if she spouts some garbage about boundaries within the relationship, like communicating with other guys, ask her if she thought OM would have wanted her to do that while she was with him).
Tell her you're not expecting her to suddenly feel passionate for you again. But...that if she quits constantly putting up the anger and everything else as barriers against you, that she CAN and WILL (feel free to quote my case if you like) develop those feelings again for you...tell her that the truth is that she never lost those feelings for you, but that she's completely buried them in her emotional rush to be with OM. It IS standard, normal WS stuff that ALL WS's go through. She might want to think that her case is special...but, it's not.
And no where does it say that the two of you have to spend every free moment doing something together. That's a completely foolish concept. What you're asking for her to do is to MAKE THE EFFORT to spend some kind of REAL time with you...not time spent fighting and arguing and talking about what's going on. And that any free time that two of you do spend apart shouldn't be involved in something that's just going to set the marriage up for failure (like going out alone to bars, etc...). In other words, you're asking her to behave like a WIFE...NOT a prisoner, NOT a single person, but like someone who has made a commitment to another person. If she wants to do somethings on her own...great! But don't let them be things that are determinental to your marriage.
Wrap it up with the fact that you're not expecting her to 'flip a switch' and suddenly feel different. What you're asking her to do is to quit fighting everything that you're asking, start TALKING with you, start to do her part in fixing what's wrong with your marriage, and to see THEN if the feelings come back.
She goes on and on about rules and regulations...does she truly expect to live in a situation where there are none at all? If she were with OM, there'd be rules. Even if she were single living on her own, there are still society's rules she has to live by. So what are her SPECIFIC rules that she hates...and what can you two negotiate to a resolution on that ISN'T determintal to rebuilding your marriage?
Personally, this note is the same as the last. She says she's letting go of the anger...then goes on to continue blaming you for all that's wrong in her life. She needs to grow up. Sorry...just how that struck me.
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That comment she made about 'no intention of quitting anything again because you don't like it' is pretty telling. But, turn it back on her...say you had an affair with a news lady who covered all of the racing events...how would she feel knowing that you were going to be seeing this lady at every race...while you were there without your wife?
Tell her that you don't mind her hobby...you think her interest in this stuff is great. BUT...if she wants to keep doing it, SHE NEEDS to find a way to do it that won't put her in contact AT ALL with OM...and in a way that won't put your marriage at risk of doing this again. JUST AS SHE WOULD EXPECT OF YOU IF THE SITUATION WERE REVERSED!!!
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Owl is pretty right here.
Have you read "Love must be tough" by James Dobson? Basically, like owl said you pull back a bit to get her wondering.
Presumably the rules she doesn't like are let me guess.. POJA, Policy of Undivided Attention? How am I doing so far.
I agree with not looking around the corner. I know for sure, there is some conflict on the way when we get to some lessons in the HNHN Audio series and LB series. But I don't need to fight those battles now. And at the moment I am building up Love Bank deposits at a ferocious rate so when we do get there we should be in pretty good shape.
It might be a good idea to pull back a bit and give her some space. Check out Love must be Tough. She is probably feeling trapped and thinking "is this all there is for the rest of my life?"
Hang in there my friend.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Posts: 725
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Owl and bigkahuna I aggree with everything you have said. I think I do need to pull back and give her the "space" she needs but how do I do that and try to do what SH wants me to do and that is meet her EN's for the next 2 weeks until we talk to him again. BK you are very right. POJA is definately what set her off. We never really got into it, but it was discussed somewhat and I think our next sessoin will cover it and then some. Look at the response she just sent me a few minutes ago. I know that the idea behind not looking around the corner is a good one, but I personally find it impossible. What do you have if not hope for the future?
I'm truly sorry that I have hurt you by revealing my feelings, but my feelings have been hurting me for a long long time. I am not and have never been a quitter, but I don't know how much more I can take.
My chest hurts, my stomach aches constantly, and my head is usually splitting wide open. This does not include the fact that my hair is falling out in clumps and my eyelids are flaking completely off! Everyday is a struggle just to keep moving. I know that you feel a lot like this too, but I am not totally responsible. We both created the problems in the relationship. I only regret that I did not scream loud enough, and you weren't listening.
I do not feel any hope at all at the present time. It's just hard to face every morning like this. I really don't know what to do. Pull back, try to meet needs, a combo and if I do a combo how do you do that? Is that even possible. I am just getting so confused. She is finally talking, albiet via email, and I don't know if this is a good thing or not. I am scared at this point. BobPure asked me what would I do if I had no fear. At this point, I would say I am frozen in fear on don't know what I would do. I want to tell her that don't she realize all the physical ailments she is talking about is a result of her rebellion and refusal to forgive me, etc... She went and made peace with someone a month ago that she was furious with and said she felt so much better. Why must she hang on to what she has a problem with me about. I still say the affair is the issue, she is totally blind to that. It is like it is just a side issue. She calls it the sympton, not the problem. I see it as the problem and what we are going through now as the symptom. I could be totally off base, but that is the way I see it. We HAD what seemed like a good marriage. Plenty of Affection, SF, we talked when we could, we both aggreed the our boys were important and needed to pursue what they were pursuing, and this chapter or season was a brief season and we would have plenty of time for ourselves in a couple of years. I THOUGHT we were both on the same page. Obviously I have regrets. Many regrets. I know I took our relationship for granted and she did also, but is that a reason to throw it all away. It is just crazy that she does not see it so clearly. She is a smart women. Someone I admire and trusted totally. She is just not the same women. It feels like I am living some kind of strange sci-fi life at the moment were things just changed overnight.
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Pulling back is not incompatible with Plan A.
As James Dobson tells it, the tighter you hang onto someone, the more they want to get away and fight. She is feeling trapped. She thinks she wants out.
Why don't you try saying/emailing something like this...
I want you to know I love you and am very unhappy seeing you suffer at the moment. I want our marriage to work and be a good and happy one like God intended. I am happy to give you the freedom you want if it will make you happy. If you are so unhappy sleeping in the same bed as me at the moment, why don't you use the bed in the spare room. I am happy to give you some space. I just want you to be happy.
I don't know - something like that. Keep her under your roof so you can meet some EN's but give her some space - get her wondering about what you're thinking. Get her questioning if she wants you or not - at the moment you are holding on tight to her - she feels trapped - letting go a little puts the ball back in her court - she will think "maybe he doesn't want me any more?" Read Love must be tough. It might help.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Posts: 2,715
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Well, I agree with her in ONE respect...the affair IS a symptom of a much bigger problem.
I'm not a doctor (hey Lemonman!!!), but I do know a little bit. Sometimes, the only way to treat an illness is to treat the symptoms. And sometimes, you have to treat both the illness and the symptoms...or the patient dies before the treatment for the illness can be effective.
If your daughter has a high fever due to strep-throat, do you JUST give her antibiotics to treat the strep? After all, the fever is just a symptom...the cause is the strep. BUT...fail to treat the fever and she'll die from brain damage.
Compare this to your situation. Right now, there ARE some serious issues between you and your wife that LEAD to the symptom of the affair. And left untreated, these will kill your marriage. BUT...you cannot just work on those issues while the marriage is dying from the affair...which is a symptom of the problems in your marriage?
Get the picture?
Paraphrase that into your own words and send it back to her...I'd love to see her response to that!
I had the EXACT same conversation with my wife when we first started MC while she was still in withdrawl. The MC sat there in shock at the analogy, and my wife just shut up on that subject for a while.
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Mistaken post from a cached page on my phone. Soooooo sorry guys.
Last edited by waitingonlove; 11/17/05 10:52 PM.
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
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Posts: 7,464 |
hey waiting - that mobile - email gateway sucks........
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 725
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 725 |
Hey guys. I just edited the post prior to BK. Sorry about that. It must have been cached in my phone and when I went on the net this evening it reposted, albiet incorrectly again.
I won't do that again.
Owl and BK I think I will pull back some more. I have kinda slipped back into the slightly needy I guess.
One strange thing has happened. Tonight when I came home she seems to be in a great mood. I asked my 2 DS's how she was when she picked them up from school. She remarked to them that she had a great day. I have not heard those words in weeks or even months from her. That was shortly after she sent me the emails I pasted in previous post.
Hum??? Makes you wonder. I am also going to order the Dobson book. BK I am listening to the sermon also.
Thanks for all your support. I have needed it. I wish I could do the same for you guys.
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Slightly Needy won't get the job done. Hold onto your dignity & self respect at all costs.
Glad to hear you are getting the book & listening. My wife was in tears at church for a few weeks - she had just come home and whammo she got the Warfare - Strongholds one and then the next week she got slammed on repentance. It was all good and it really, really helped her as a Christian coming to terms and dealing with what she had done. Then I discovered MB and it has been all moving along nicely from there.
We are living in a rented property at the moment with no computers or internet. I come home to work and post here. It was our next door neighbour who was the OM and even before MB we knew we had to move and establish NC. It's just so basic and fundamental to recovery.
We have had some ups and downs - she is in the "What the h3ll was I thinking" and "How could I be so stupid" phase right now and still has some troubles with her conscience. She has good and bad days - more good than bad these days. It's all good.
I also find that we can have a discussion about something contraversial that may have been eating me up a bit and it's like a load comes off and I stop worrying anymore about it - like your wife today. It probably felt good for her to get some stuff off her chest hence the good day.
I also find my self still thinking about her affair but rarely giving the maggot next door much thought anymore while a few weeks ago I was thinking about him a lot and was sorely tempted to engage him in some counselling with a baseball bat. (only joking)
Don't be so needy. Give her some space. Ensure you are 100% there is N/C. Keep it going with Harley. These will bear fruit and give you the result you want. Above all, pray and believe God.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Posts: 7,464
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oh... and support is what we are ALL her for. Personally, I have revealed stuff here in this thread that I would be very uncomfortable about my wife knowing I had told others. But we all need support from others at different times and I do get a lot of help from others here.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 725
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Thanks BigK,
I have said stuff on here I would not have said anywhere else either, other than maybe SH.
Regarding the 100% sure of NC, I am doing what I can on that front.
I noticed something this morning. She was actually up and out of bed before me and fairly chipper. I also noticed she is wearing her hair long and curley the last 3 days. The significance of that is she started straightening a few months ago. It looked nice but I really thought she looked better curley. Anyway, on our EN q's under attractive spouse I said one of the things I liked about her was her Long Curly hair.
After the session this week with SH she went long and curly. Did it again this morning. Attractive spouse was not in my top 4, but I think she may be trying to do an EN. It did not occur to me until yesterday and this morning after her shower that is what she did again. Hum?
Also, Meldody and BK and others, it is really comforting to hear others that have been successful. Thanks very much.
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 725
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Today I told my mom what was going on. I just was not ready to do so. My mom is real emotional and I just did not want to break it to her.
Turns out it was a relief for her. She knew something was up by my wifes behavior and my avoidance of certian things.
My wife was very curious about what we talked about. She supported me going to my mom but I could tell she really was curious as to what I said and how I presented it.
I am not sure what the tempature is at home, so we will see this weekend.
WOL
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Hey waiting - you're a champion. Great news all round from what you say here. God Bless you.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 725
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We spent the whole day apart. She shopped all day with her mom, I worked and went by my Moms as earlier mentioned. I picked up my oldest DS from Baseball lessons and she went to pick my oldest DS friend and we kinda had a double date with them tonight. She seemed ok, almost normal, happy etc... then we came home. She was again very curious about my conversation with my Mom.
I was kinda vague but told her I told Mom everything. She then wanted to be sure she knew because she did not want to get blindsided by her. I told her I did not think she had to worry about anything.
Since that conversation she has pretty much shutdown and lurked on the web about some horse show going on tonight. Now she is napping.
I guess this is all to be expected. I will be gone all day with my oldest DS hunting while she is shopping with her Mom and my youngest DS tommorow.
She should be feeling a lot less smothered now because I am not going to be able to spend much time with her at all this weekend.
We will see how it goes. Hoping NC is still in place and she is trying to meet some needs and realizes I am trying to meet some of hers.
BS (Me) 43
WW or FWW 40
2 DS's 16 and 13
Married 21 Years
D-day 9/10/2005
Exposure 9/11/2005
False NC 9/11/2005
Discovery of Contact 12/23/2005
NC (Letter written Jan 2006)
Divorce Petition Filed Jan 2006
In a holding pattern.
Me Still Handing in there
Phil 4:13
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464 |
Cool. You've got her doing some guessing now. You aren't hanging on so tight and she doesn't feel so trapped. It's also good that she cares about what you told your mom. Just hang in there and do what SH says.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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