Is not "socially accepted" frequently one of the goals for a couple to decide they want to commit to marriage?

I am disagreeing with you on the basis of what you said ... formal legal marriage is no better than a verbal promise .... because it only adds a piece of paper.

I say, incorrect.

Sometimes a piece of paper is a life saver.

I'm cool with that.

No hard feelings then, if I misunderstood your intent.

I don't believe I ever said that.

For us the paper didn't change anything.
Mr. Incredible remained faithful for many many years after 'getting the paper'.

Oh get real, 10Swords. That is MY opinion, as a Christian. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is NOT, and was NOT, an "attempt to convert you."

What, do you have some persecution complex where you see "anti-Jewish" all over the place?

Forget that statement of opinion if you'd like and tell me WHERE in the Jewish faith there is even a HINT of it being "okay" to cohabitate and practice extramarital sex WITHOUT first establishing the "bonds of marriage?"

Just because you may be of the opinion that it is right and the "same as" being married, does not make your opinion more valid that Jewish teaching on the subject either. Converting to Judaism carries with it the embracing of all Jewish belief and teaching. Now, I really don't want to start a discussion about "differences" in Jewish beliefs, like Orthodox versus Reformed, but I would submit that God's stated view is the primary focus anyway.

I see where you and I are having the communication break-down ... you are discussing how you feel and I am discussing how the formality brings respect from the community and has cultural signifigance.

YOU and "Mr.I" certainly felt married before "the piece of paper" ... but in the eyes of the world (not to mention the military <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> LOL) ... you were NOT married until you had that little piece of paper.

Marriage is a commitment to stick together irregardless of the feelings that pull one outside the committment ... and that's why marriage is valued. It over rides feelings ... which are always temporary due to our neurological wiring.

First of all I have never said cohabitating or extra-marital sex was "the same as" being married.

What I said, and what was misconstrued all over the place, is that Mr_Incredible made a commitment to monogamy and agreed to it and made our own little vow to God, prior to Marriage. The constraints that drove me to be wary of Marriage had nothing to do with wanting to not be monogamous. I had other reasons. I am not a perfect one before God. He's still working on me.

Well I can say that I agree with this. Thank you for trying to understand where I'm coming from, certainly I don't expect you to agree with me when you don't!

And I am glad we decided to formalize our commitment, now. That's why we will be renewing our vows before God and family on our next anniversary. Suffice to say, I did not value the institution of Marriage so much at one time, for reasons of my own. But it is nice to benefit from the construct socially and we both are very glad that we are married now that we are much older.

Interesting discussion.....

I've been with my partner for 8 years. We have two children but we're not married. For me, having children is a far greater commitment then marriage. I can walk away from a marriage, I can't walk away from my children quite as easily. Despite the fact that we don't have that piece of paper, neither of us have any doubts with regard to our commitment to the relationship and to each other. Honesty is absolutley vital to both of us and fidelity is a given. Does that mean if either of us stray it's not adultery ? Maybe so but thats just semantics. The hurt and pain are the same, the threat to our family unit is the same, the damage caused to our children is the same. Marriage is a good thing, but it doesn't change how people feel and behave. Getting married doesn't stop affairs it just makes the clean up a bit messier. What really counts is the agreement between the couple and the ability to stick to the terms of that agreement. Anything outside that is just an extra.

10S

my life experience included a 14-year "committed" relationship that, at the time, I thought was as good as married. So you see, I have a bias based on my experience ... but then, who doesn't ??? LOL

I have been married (not the same guy by the way) for 24 years ... and now I know ... married is different !!!!

I can only offer my perspective here...we were together/living together for 5 yrs. We were very committed to our R. We were getting married this fall finally...we had for so long not talked about it because we had both experienced unhealthy marriages and decided that as long as we were happy and committed we were good...we then started talking about it.

I think that had we actually been married, I would have not asked him to leave and we would not be where we are today. I think we would both have tried harder to keep it together. I can say that until he left, he was the most faithful man in the world. He was fully committed to our R. But he felt that I let him down at the end. I take responsibilty for not being there and understanding the depression...but I take no responsibilty for his A.

He knows that if he comes back and sobers up, it is my goal that we work on our R and do get married. I won't accept it any other way.

I don't know if it works the same way in the states, but here in canada, if you live together for a year, you are considered common law...and if you seperate - yes there is no legalities, but you are entitled to all the same things as if you were married - 50% of debt, %50 of assets...and that is when you are not married - but just common law.

My dad and step mom have been commonlaw for 22 years now...my dad had 2 failed marriages before and didn't want to have a third - so they never married. My dad did cheat on my step mom years and years ago (as did my step dad on my mom - too much infedility around here) and it was cheating...and they recovered - and my dad changed and committed again...my step dad and mom have also been married 22 years (not common-law) and went through the same thing - and my step-dad recovered and became a christian and totally changed.

I believe well legally infedility is only to married couples, - cheating is cheating any way you look at it - and common laws here are given the same equality as marriages...even file taxes with eachother written as spouse...

Pepperband, please note yesterday I’ve sent you a message here and I need a response from you if you don’t mind. Just in case you’ve missed it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bump for Pepperband

Been a long time since I have been to these parts and I see interesting stuff is still being debated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a point to consider---For thousands of years there was no legality involved in marriage, no piece of paper if you will but people were sure enough married. I believe it used to be "Before God" not before the law. All the piece
of paper does is give you legal status, doesn't neccisarily have anything to do with whether one is married or not.

But I don't think that actually addresses the question.

I was legally married to my first husband but didn't have a piece of paper. It was so legal that when I decided I wanted the piece of paper, the state I live in wouldn't issue us a marriage licence and deny that the laws of another state were invalid.

But I would have to say that infidelity does hurt more in a marriage because there was an explicit promise before God and man to remain faithful. Doesn't mean it wouldn't hurt like ****** if a boyfriend or girlfriend cheated. Watched my oldest daughter go through that and she was devastated. She recovered quicker than I did but I think that is because I was in a long term relationship and hers was a couple of years.

Well, this is certainly interesting. And I am probably doing just a drive by here since life has gotten too busy lately too spend much time online.

Later guys,
Tiggy

Okay skimmed a little more and see there is quite a talk about "a piece of paper." We live in a culture that requires everything to be written down and signed or it isn't valid, isn't real. In many of the middle eastern countries they do rely on the other's word. We in the west are a bit obsessed with papers and signatures seems to me. Just because those of us in western cultures believe the paper is the end all doesn't mean it is absolute truth, just what we as a culture have decided we want. There are medical doctors, teachers who were trained in other countries but don't have their little paper anymore so they are no longer professionals?? Does that mean they suddenly lost their skills??

And I would suggest that even talking about this subject that perhaps western culture is shifting some, making room for other ideas--like being faithful to your boyfriend or girlfriend. I mean if there weren't folks adoing it there would be nothing to debate, nothing to talk about.

I think hurt is hurt. Why qualify it? What is the point here?

My great aunt refused to marry my uncle, her second partner, because her first husband ran off with another woman. But they were together for over 50 years.

I think instead of saying, like I did above that infidelity hurts more in a marriage---it's better said that it hurts more in a long term relationship over a short term one, whether that is a spouse or a BF or GF.

Tiggy

Hi Tiggy ! long time no hear ?

How's things ?

My thread was borne of a poster who said they left their non cohabiting BF for another BF when she was young. She felt this was equivalent of her H of ten years having an affair and leaving her. I disagreed with this.

I think that the expectations of commitment is very different in BF/GF situations than in a marriage. Mine certainly were and are now. Dating is not being married. dating is PRE-commitment IMO.

I do not minimise the pain when dating partners cheat, and its not * nice * to cheat on a BF/GF but not the same as reneging on a formal and open commitment to fidelity like a marriage vow IMO.

Hi b0b.

I don't think that what I did to BF was equivalent to what WH did. I merely meant to admit that my actions and subsequent feelings of guilt have had a major impact upon my marriage. I guess I haven't expressed myself well.

It took me a long time to become aware of how exactly I followed the 'WS' pattern in my dealings with poor BF! I understand so much better now what WH has done (although, yes, his offence is greater - especially since there are children involved).

I knew that leaving BF would crush him; I did it anyway. Nothing mattered except being with H. I've spent my whole marriage justifying what I did - I was 'much more compatible' with H, had much more 'in common', even thought we were 'soulmates'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But it is true that there was no formal commitment between me and BF, yes. But he did expect my fidelity, trusted me. Perhaps my guilt is disproportionate to my crime, but because the guilt was always there, I think it had a very negative effect on my marriage.

Alph.

Soz Alph. Didn't mean to misrepresent you.

Maybe your expriences do give you some insight into your WHs mentality. My argumant is all academic anyway. I've never knowingly hurt or otherwise shat on anybody in 41 years.

Tell you what - it certainly doesn't prepare a person for infidelity. I tell you that.

Hope you're doing OK mate.

I am, thank you b0b. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's certainly been a valuable learning experience.

Alph.