My W (49) and I (49) have been married for 20+ years. We're raising 3 great kids (2 in college, one still in HS) and are in excellent shape financially. We've had our ups and downs over the years but have always managed to get through things together (with occasional MC), even when things between us were really tough.

The last few years, however, I've felt we've been drifting apart. She lost both her parents last year, 6 months apart, and she's had some difficulty with the older children heading off to college (she's very close to our children). I was very supportive of her during most this time, helping her work through her love/hate relationship with her parents and one of her sisters and comforting her about her separation anxiety for the college children.

Over this past summer, I know I neglected her EN for affection (and other EN's I'm sure) and did not act on her requests for cuddling, etc. She withdrew herself emotionally from me and became very critical of just about everything I did. She's a very strong willed person, very direct in conversation, and is often verbally aggressive. She also withdrew physically, spending a lot of time out of the house on the weekends. I'm sure I was tired of dealing with constant criticism and, in reaction, withdrew myself. my taker was saying "you expect affection after treating me like that?".

After months of silence I let it all out and told her off. I realized we were in a different kind of relationship trouble when she said "we can live together and just be friends", and that our already infrequent SF would end entirely until we "reconnected". I felt like I'd been demoted and instantly had a gut feeling that she was having an A. She called me the next day at work and said she would stop being such a b****.

After our blowout, she did tone it down, and I'd read a bit on EN's and changed myself. I now get up early and have been diligent in doing DS chores I know she dislikes, conversing more openly (I don't express my feelings too well), listening carefully, and going to bed with her at the same time for cuddling.

She has noticed and remarked on my turnaround, mostly positively, but she remains skeptical -- "you're trying too hard", "i don't think it will last", etc. I'm getting mixed signals from her: we had agreed on me going to bed with her at night for cuddling but she'll only want to actually do it once or twice a week. She's no longer as critical about little things, but can barely say TY for anything I do ("I shouldn't have to say TY, you should do it anyway"). She's very defensive when I ask her how her day was, telling me she's an open book and tells me everything and if i would just listen she wouldn't have to repeat herself. She said if I ask what went on she has to remember it and doesn't like that. What's bothering me is large blocks of time during the week she doesn't mention, or just a "it was fine" when she's usually very talkative about details. She runs her own one-person business (just her) and determines her own hours so I may just be fretting over nothing.

She's asked me flat out if I thought she was having an A. I replied, "are you?" Of course she said "no", but then asked "are you having an A?" I said "no" and her interesting reply was "That's what you should say. I wouldn't want to know. You just keep it a secret." I also asked jokingly one night how her HS BF (30 years ago) was as a kisser and she went off the handle, saying it was none of my business and I didn't get to know any of her secrets. She claims that she has a private part of her life that I don't get to know about. I understand her point but it bothers me that she can redefine the private/shared boundary at any time.

I feel torn in several directions: I know I need to maintain and improve behaviour for a better M; I will not settle for a "Best Friends" R; W is showing signs of infidelity.

I'm know I'm too emotionally involved to be objective. Any advice on how to proceed? I'd like to think that I should continue with my behavior changes to build trust and then non-threatenly reiterate that I won't settle for a loveless best-friends M. I would continue to silently verify/disprove if an A is in progress.

saille,

Your W displays the symptoms of a WS!!!! Red flags all over the place. Do your homework. Hire a PI, if needed. Don't let on to your W that you are snooping. Read up on Plan A. Implement Plan A.
Once you have proof of an A. Do your homework on OM. Where does he work? Is he married? Does he have children? Does he have parents? Is he a member of a church? Who else would have a vested interest in ending the A?

Expose the A to all concerned in one fehl swoop. THEN tell your wife. Present her with your proof annd the knowledge that you have let the people closes to you know about the A and that you are willing to do everything possible to save your M. Tell her that you expect her to end her A immediately, completely, and forever. Then go back to Plan A and continue to post here on your progress.

Ditto everything losttranslation said. She sounds very much like a woman in an affair. I also suspect she is doing it to punish you because she believes you have ignored her. I would do some serious sleuthing while doing your best to meet her needs and avoid lovebusters.

Go to Radio Shack and purchase a voice activated DIGITAL recorder and a ton of batteries. Put it in her car and see what you get. You have every right to know what is going on with your life. BTW, don't believe everything you may hear on your recordings. If your wife is a WW they are two separate individuals and your marriage can be saved and better than it ever was despite anything fogged out thing she says.

I hope we are wrong,

Good Luck,
Mr. Wondering

Thank you all for the feedback. It's nice to know that what I'm feeling about our M isn't something to be dismissed and I have reason to be concerned.

Lost/Melody/Mr.Wondering, I'd been doing some basic sleuthing and had identified a potential OP already. On the one hand, I saw almost no contact with OP via phone over the summer, giving me hope that I was wrong about this. On the other hand, W would mention OP in conversation and related far more about OP than the few phone calls indicated. This, along with increasing frequency of OP's name during recent conversation makes me think I should step up my monitoring (as you've all suggested).

I'll be *acting* on all your good advice on meeting EN's and Plan A and will keep you up to date.

It has been said that most of us BS know the OP in the affair. Sallie you may want to check cell bills, it certainly opened my eyes in my case.

I've stepped up my monitoring and will keep it up for at least the next month. No hard evidence has come up yet, which is good news in the obvious way.

The bad news is that nothing much has changed: I'm still getting mixed signals: when I show affection she's distant and has initiated one display of affection since last SF 3 weeks ago. My behavior changes are noticed and occasionally complimented but the slightest LB from me and I get read the riot act. "you're needy... you're trying to make me feel guilty...this is a nightmare. I'm about to go back to the way things were."

I'm really stressing out over this: being caring and nice (and blowing it sometimes) while pursuing evidence of an A feels so contradictory. Wondering how I could have suddenly developed such insecurity and mistrust about our R. Knowing that even if no A exists, we still have a lot to work on and I'm seeing no progress at all. I know it will take time, A or not, to improve things and I *am* committed to it. I guess I need to get over my fears and gather my strength because it looks like this will be a long haul.

saille,

There is no room for secrets in a marriage. There should be total transparency. Investigating or snooping = lack of necessary transparency. Keep investigating, if nothing turns up, it will eventually put your mind at ease.

Keep practicing at Plan A. Make it a lifestyle. Rid your M of LBs for good.

Have the two of you read HNHN and done the questionaire? Would your wife be willing to call one of the Harley's with you for counsultation?

As usual, good news / bad news. I've been trying hard to eliminate LB's and this weekend felt good about expressing my self without LB'ing.

We'd negotiated some affection time for her and a separate time for me. I've been diligent on meeting her schedules but she'd been letting it slide for me. I called her on this and she went nuts, telling me I was rigid and she needed her own time to herself. I was calm and simply explained that this was the first time she'd said my time was inconvenient and I was willing to compromise to a win/win schedule. She was very upset during the initial discussion and giving all kinds of excuses for not holding up on her end of the deal.

I listened calmly and told her that I can't *make* her do anything -- I can only relate what's important to me and how I feel about things and what she did, if anything, was up to her. I restated that my "affection time" was very important to me and her not being there really hurt. Things got better from there on -- she calmed down slowly and we were at least able to discuss things as adults.

The bad news she gave no indication that her behavior would change. My once-a-week, definite, "affection time" seems to be inconvenient for her on every day. I've left things open for now but I'm not really happy about her lack of commitment. I'll see how things go during the next week and bring it up again if things continue as they are. I'm not sure what this means if an A is in progress.

Bigwave: Yes, my best guess at possible OP is someone I know. W does work with a lot of men so the I could wrong about my best guess. Phone records so far haven't shown anything obvious.

Lost: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm reluctant to bring up HNHN yet to W.. The "A" word in the sub-title will almost certainly trigger a huge fight since she's repeatedly denied it, and thinks (rightly) that I suspect one. I guess I'd rather not blow my cover just yet. If it turns out to be nothing, we'll still need to work on M and I can then try HNHN. At least then I'll have had some time to calm down about the whole thing.

One last thing: W has twice mentioned this past week about a 9pm job she'll be working on tomorrow night. I asked why so late a start time and her reply was "they're open all night and I have to be there when it isn't busy." Obviously this is huge red flag but I'm wondering what the best way to handle this might be. Ideas?

saille, what are you doing? Why are you demanding affection from a WW who is in an affair? As you can see, you aren't going to get it and making demands is a lovebuster.

What do you mean you have negotiated "time for herself?" What is that all about?

First off, it is a lovebuster to try and educate your spouse. Secondly, the things you are doing here, negotiating "needs", etc. are activities that are mutually done in recovery. They will not be well received when your W is still in an active affair, as you can see. Yes, you are supposed to do your best to meet her needs, but giving her "time" to carry on an affair or whatever she is doing is not a "need."

As far as her all night job tomorrow night, I would find a way to confirm this even if it means going there and checking on her.

Can you hire a P.I. to find out what she is doing?

Mel is right.

PI time my friend. And do the voice recorder. Check cellphone records also.

Check mileage on car. Your W can say she's one place, but her mileage could tell another story.

Missing blocks of time were what first alerted me to my xh. And he would always have an excuse on the front end. One night he was supposedly working late...when he showed up at home with what smelled like movie popcorn on him...and a kernel of movie popcorn was stuck in the pocket of his starched dress shirt.

I asked him about it. He said it was popcorn. I said it ws not kind you get at home...or make at home..he said "I know..I felt like going to a movie". In the years I had known him he had never gone to a movie alone. He is codependent on everybody. Would rather do manual labor than sit at a fancy restaurant eating by himself.

That was first sign I remember.

Her secretive life. The weekends missing. The getting mad b/c you're wanting to find out...all important.

Now if you and your W were before this period having regular SF and then she suddenly stops and begins acting this way....I would call that a huge red flag.

Do stop LB'ing. You need to read up on plan A. Do that for a while. Get the whole concept really down.

I tried a friendship plan A on one of my friends here. She and I hadn't talked in a while. In fact our circle of friends were worried about her b/c she'd become so moody..so quiet..and detached from all of us (about four of us are really close friends) And when we did talk to her, she was short, snippy, etc. So the next time we talked, I focused on what she was doing, her EN's etc. I got my friends to do the same thing btw. We all focused in on what kind of emotional support she may have needed. Seems she was afraid her mom had breast cancer. And she was cutting off herself from all her friends as she was so frightened. It can bring out the best in a friend...or in your W...if you do it well. MB is for everybody! But if somebody has malintent, like a WS...then A is daunting sometimes...b/c the WS is hiding something dark.

Show that your are meeting your W's EN's. Don't show how you're snooping b/c that's a love buster. Don't quiz her or try to get your"negotiated physical contact time". Now if your W is cheating, you may not see results for a while. I am of mindset that an A plan should exist for specific time or until BS is getting really worn out from the stress. During this time, find out if an A really exists. She does exhibit signs of it. I have also noticed that stress is sometimes showing similar signs to that of an affair.

By having the voice recorder, checking cell records, doing PI or getting a gps system, you can find out quickly what is happening.

I have a coworker who almost divorced her H b/c she thought he was having an affair. He was not. He was under extreme stress he stuffed inside of himself. HIs job was not going well. He was working late. He drank a bit more. And he seemed gloomy and moped around house all the time. When he was happy, he was hanging out with the guys...and did guy things. Ignored his W needs. In this case, it was extreme stress. I showed her MB and she goot hshn book. They're happy MB converts. Incidentally, he has a new job now.

But you need to know the difference. Is it an A or not?

Melody/justpeachy: Thanks for your feedback. I see I have mis-communicated the situation somewhat, so I'll try to clarify things a bit.

I only *suspect* an A is either in progress, or occurred and is now over. Cell and house phone records have suggested an OP but nothing has been glaringly obvious. Car mileage has been tough to match up since her job takes her all over town. House recordings haven't shown anything suspicious, although I've only recently been able to do this. I can't really hire a PI yet since she does the bills.

The "negotiated" physical contact time is simply me trying to meet her stated EN for affection, without any pressure of SF. We'd fallen into a bad habit of going to bed at different times in different rooms (because I snore) and to change to meet her EN I'd go to bed with her, then get up later and move to another bed to let her sleep.

This is the context of the affection-time-for-me that I'd asked her for: every night for her and one morning per week for me. I was a MB noob at the time so I didn't know this was a LB. My reasoning was that M is 2-way commitment, I too need affection, and maybe the A suspicion is all in my head. She's chosen unilaterally to blow this off anytime she doesn't feel like it and make it time-for-herself. I'm still expected to initiate every night for her and allow her to say "no, go sleep in other room" (which she does more often than not). I'm feeling like quite the doormat since her initiating physical contact once per week can't be fit into her schedule.

SF has been long-standing issue for me since frequency has been steadily dropping (now about 1 per 6-8 weeks) and it's always only if she initiates. She's almost always firmly rejecting me initiating, even though I've never pressured her for SF, especially in the last year or so since she's been complaining of pre-menopausal hot flashes. Early summer we had a very short spike in frequency. Midsummer SF once. Last SF over three weeks ago. I don't know if this is her symptoms acting up or the typical up/down pattern of an A.

Here's an update on things.

On Monday I told her about my day and asked innocently about hers. She blankly said she didn't remember. I let this pass without comment since I'm trying not to quiz her.

Later, W left around 9pm for job and I heard her come in just before 6am, smelling of the chemicals she works with. Car mileage was right on and the recorder showed she at least got there before the batteries died. Other than the large block of time, things look legit, which is a huge relief.

She's going out of town for the weekend to visit her sister and had originally planned on taking our DD, but DD is now not going. I'm trying not to freak out over this and given the recent verified time I feel better about it.

Last night I went to bed early with a slight headache and she came in to cuddle a bit which was very nice.

saille,

that is good to hear. Keep at it though. Keep at it until you are absolutely convinced that she is not having an affair. Keep to Plan A. Heck, plan A is a nice lifestyle ... if you don't feel like your walking on egg shells and wouldn't we all like to be on the receiving end of Plan A as well? Don unto others...

I intend to keep up monitoring for a while since she's still behaving a little strange. She was very distant after she read the birthday card I gave her but demonstrably affectionate with DD only seconds later. She became very defensive last night when I asked a general question about her weekend trip, and told me flat out that I was not to call her the entire weekend. When I raised an eyebrow at this (literally. I didn't say a single word), she blew up, saying the cell was for emergencies only and the changes I've been making are suffocating her, that after 20 years I'm changing the rules and she needs her alone time.

This is really frustrating to hear since I have consciously been avoiding quizzing her about things, keeping any questions very general/conversational. It's been days since I've even asked "how was your day?" (answer: "I don't remember". I bit my tongue and let this slide without comment). I'm not fawning over her for affection or faking my conversations. I'm feeling way more comfortable about elimintating LBs and expressing myself non-confontationaly. LT, I'm trying to Plan A, regardless of my suspicions, but unfortunately I *do* feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

When she left this morning for her weekend trip she looked amazing in her best jeans outfit, earings, etc. Maybe it's a girl thing but it struck me as odd that she spent the time to look that good right before a solo 5 hour drive to her sister's house.

Bad news. Reviewing a house recording of our bedroom I located a short clip of her moaning. no voices but two breathing patterns. Arrrggggghhhhh! My heart is racing. The clip is very short only 10 seconds but I've listened to it multiple times.

I feel like calling her now and telling her I know. should I wait until I calm down or just get it over with now? She won't be back from her trip until Sunday. I can only imagine what's going on right now.

I've taken some time and calmed down. I've decided that I'll wait at least 48 hours until I take any action. I'll be able to review things again in the morning, hopefully by then I'll be thinking more clearly.

saille-

You have much to be concerned about. Especially with all of the stressors your wife has been subjected to recently. Could be a bout of depression, and sounds like there's either an A going on or she wants there to be one.

Stay vigilant, my FWW took things way too far before I admitted what she was doing to myself.

I've reviewed the recording again and, after a night's sleep to clear my head, I've decided that I can't take any action based only on suspicious behavior and a 2 second audio clip. I'm now glad I didn't do anything rash.

I did a lot of soul-searching last night listening to my devil's advocate. I could be completely wrong about all this and am just searching for a way to blame our M problems on someone else. I don't think I've realized until now how self-absorbed and distant I've been over the years and how badly this behavior has affected my W and our M. It's quite a shock to realize how much I still need to change myself before I can truly improve our M. I've resolved to make these changes and I just need to remind myself that my W will take time, maybe a long time, to notice it.

I read through this whole thread again and saw that I haven't said how deeply I love my W and this fact is really bugging me today. When I think back over all we've been through, good and bad, I feel the love through our children, committment to each other, our laugher and tears, and wonder why I'm questioning it now.

I apologize to you all for dumping all this self-centered angst in my posts. I just feel like I need a place to write all this down and get a reality check once in a while.