Maybe that's what I was trying to say - not judge but condemn, I know it is our duty as Christians to teach the right way - but in a teaching manner and not a condemning manner - I like you Mortarman, know that my sin of adultry and many other little sins I have will be no more lightly judged by God than homosexuality or abortion...that many people judge or condemn without realizing they too will be judged.

It's why i said the small thing I said - as Christians we should be there helping people find the path instead of condeming and pushing them further off the path as none of us are perfect, and condemning gives people the sense that that we are somehow better....

I have not yet read the other responses - will do so later. However, I have quickly returned to share the following I've found from a Christian book today about homosexuality. This extraction further explains my own personal POV about this. The book is written in my mother tongue, so I have translated the part into English. Therefore, please excuse any language/word errors:

[color:"blue"] Sexual orientation is one of the four components of sexuality. It finds expression in a person’s emotional, romantic and sexual attraction or affection towards people of a particular sex. The other three components of sexuality is biological sex, sex identification and the social sex role. Sexual orientation had to do with feeling and with the self concept.

Genetic and hormonal factors, former child experiences, dominant mothers and absent fathers has been raised as reasons for a person’s sexual orientation. The most recent studies have shown that sexual orientation is the end product of a complex interaction between biological, psychological and social factors in the first (early) years of a person's life.

In 1990 the American Psychological Association published research findings which show that therapy to try and accomplish a change in sexual orientation, usually cause greater emotional problems. To try and change the sexual orientation of an adult person, involves much more than just a change in sexual behavior. It involves a total change in the person’s emotional, romantic and sexual perceptions and the reconstruction of the person’s self concept and social identity.

The first Swiss Christian-psychiatrist, Theodor Bovet, has written in Sinnerfultes Anders-sein (to live meaningful as a homosexual) that love for the same sex don’t have anything to do with morality. Within his/her life context, the homosexual can live just as morally or immorally as the heterosexual within his/her own orientation.

In the discovery of his/her predisposition, the homosexual goes through phases of guilt, self-contempt, loneliness and despair. To live as a gay believer in an ethic and responsible way within the broader society where promiscuousness also flourish, is not easy. The body of Christ can support gay people and have to serve the gay society with the love of Jesus Christ. This task involves the encouragement of the gay believers in their struggle to sublimate homosexual passions. The homosexual individual is usually exceptionally talented, sensitive, artful and, as far as creativity is concerned, observably an image bearer of God.

Therefore, the unnatural and God-glorification alternative in the life of the faithful homosexual can be sublimation e.g. passion poured out in art and drama, sport and statuary, the planning of tourist-sights etc. Quietly, thousands of gay believers have already chosen this way.

Just as difficult as it is for the prayer less person to practice the discipline of prayer, is the path of sublimation for the gay believer. But the hour has arrived where the forgotten perspective – the attitude and disposition of Christ – have to be found back. The church is responsible to let every gay believer be a beloved member of the body of Christ.[/color]

There is other parts in the book I also want to post, but I didn't had the time to translate everything. Will do so later.

Nikko said:

please, in detail, describe to me the day, hour, minute, and circumstances of when you chose? oh, come on now, it really shouldnt be that hard. think of all the other life choices you've made.....finding the "one", the day you or he proposed.....your wedding....the day you decided to become parents.....

this is a major life choice as are all the others i listed....i remember all the details of the other days VERY clearly...however i have no idea what, when, or why, i chose to love men......i just do. it was always there in me.....

so humor me and relive this life changing choice for me and re-count it for us......

Isn't this what many of the WS's say?
I never wanted this, it just happened.... I never chose to do this, it just happened.

Don't we choose when we have thoughts, and we continue to entertain them?

Don't we all have our own cross to bear? Our own fight to fight?

Isn't it part of our earthly experiance?

Aren't we expected to fight the fight, run the race, and overcome the world?

God doesn't teach what he does to limit us, but to show us the way to happiness. Some believe that the way to happiness is to follow our feelings - be they sexual orientation, or adultry. God teaches a higher law - to overcome our feelings and live a better way. We can believe, or not.

The natural man is an enemy to God.

Jesus said: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

He invites everyone everywhere to come to him, and be healed.

To me, the question is not am I this way, or that way, but will I accept his invititation - take him at his word, let him help.

I have listened to people relate how this happened to them in their life. How their hearts were changed. I have heard it in connection with leanings to crime, alcoholisim, drug addiction, and even sexual orientation.

I love the help we get here on MB. I love the support. I am grateful for Dr Harley and the things he has written. They have helped me a great deal. I am thankful for the counseling recources, and the articles, and the forum. What a great help, in a world so full of diffuculties.

I look at God as another source of help - the greatest source that exists. This is a source I have used personally, and I highly recommend it.

SS

Interesting conversations.....I have to pose a question. If the Bible defines homosexuality as a sin, and acceptance of Christ is freedom from that sin, then isn't it a choice whether the sinner wishes to remove to sin? Maybe they struggle with the feelings of temptation, but we all struggle with the feelings of sin. Being tempted by adultery no longer makes me an adulter, being tempted by homsexuality no longer makes a person a homosexual. It's just the temptation of sin calling to the person. Not until they act upon the sin are they called out for the sin they commit.

I think too we relate people too much to the sins. God has judged the sins and pronounced judgement upon those sins. Unfortunately Adam and Eve unleashed those sins upon all of us and now it's hard to separate the sin from the person committing the sin.

Jesus had no problem pointing out a person's sin. The lady at well was amazed at how much He knew about her. Peter denied what Jesus told him. Sin's are present in all of our lives and God has already judged those sins. So in essence, we all have been judged. But it the sin we carry that has caused us to be judged.

I personally don't care if the person is born a homosexual, makes a choice to be one, is predestined to be one, but clearly he has a choice to accept Christ and then it becomes a matter of temptation which comes back again and again to tempt the person, any person. I'm tempted every day by things I don't want to be tempted by and it pains me. I heard that as a debate for the homosexual. It pains me that as an adulter I am tempted daily because of my past addiction. But thanks be to God and Christ who gets me through each and every temptation!!!

If you are going with the born that way sexual orientation, I bet you can find hundreds of adulterers that will tell you they were "born with" sexual orientation for multiple partners. You can even find published "studies" in which there are claims that man is not/was not meant to be monogamous.

In my personal belief of the Bible, I believe you must believe the Bible in its entirety or not at all.

What does the Bible say about homosexuality? I don't think it discusses whether one is born that way or not - it doesn't matter because it says not to. "Lev. 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

I do believe that if one is going to say that sexual orientation (homosexuality) is born into us, then pedophiles must surely have their sexual orientation born into them. IT AIN'T RIGHT NO MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM!

Wouldn't it be a scary world if everyone acted on their tendancies???

Mortarman - Thanks for your insight and contribution to the discussion. Please continue to contribute as I am sure that many will have questions and "another voice" might be preferred by many.



Suzet, a question for clarification purposes.

In your post you included the following from the book you were quoting from; [color:"blue"]The church is responsible to let every gay believer be a beloved member of the body of Christ. [/color]

I don't know the author of the book or what he believes, or your view on this matter either, hence the question.

Is the author of the book, and yourself by way of affirmation in quoting it or lack of disclaimer, saying that the believing "church" is supposed to let practicing homosexuals into fellowship? Or is the intent of the statement that repentant homosexuals who have "given up" that lifestyle in obedience to God, and are to be welcomed into the church of Christ like all sinners who have been forgiven by God and who have surrendered their lives to Christ?

Picking up on what Mortarman said, the "church" is instructed to NOT allow practicing sin to "invade" the church. It is to be lovingly "confronted" in the hope that the sinner will repent and can be brought back into full fellowship, but sin is NOT to tolerated among God's people.
That is the teaching of Matthew 18:15-20 regarding "church discipline."

This idea of "accepting practicing homosexuals" into fellowship is invading many churches today, including some who are allowing such persons into a position of authority and "teaching." That is the sort of "tolerance" that can easily lead to apostasy.

So I'm looking for some clarification from you on that quotation.

God bless.

Dorry, your sin HAS been forgiven and will NOT be judged by God with respect to your salvation. Where it may "come into play" is that we will all have to give an accounting of our lives, how we sinned and how we became more "Christ-like." That is when the "rewards" for Christians and how they lived their lives on earth will be given out by God. But the "greatest" reward is already reserved, eternally secure, and held by Christ, FOR ALL believers....forgiveness of all sins and eternal life with God.


No question we need to stand ready to help a seeker, but don't lose sight of the fact that many will not accept Christ no matter what you do. That(conversion) is up to God, not us. I would further submit that in most of the "Western World," at least, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has not already heard about Jesus and has made a choice. They, as do all of us, have until their death to choose FOR Christ, but there are some who never will. There are also some who are "beyond" our ability to help for a variety of reasons.

Just one example, if there is going to be someone to lead my wife's ex-OM to Christ, it won't be her and it won't be me. God is quite capable of raising up someone else to use as His witness in that case, but has also provided that WE don't have to any contact with him for any reason.

I hope what I was trying to say was clear. If not, please ask for clarification.

God bless.

Dorry, you will get no argument from me here. I think you hit the nail on the head. We as Christians are to judge, we are to discern. What we cannot do is condemn. That is reseved for God alone. Thus, there is no condemnation from me of your sins as a WW. why? Because of what I just said, as well as the fact that you have repented and God has forgiven. And if He says those sins are as far away as the East is from the West, then how dare I not do the same?

You are a sister in Christ, not a FWW...as I have said before. I can rightly judge that your behavior when involved in the affair was wrong. But no way can I ever condemn you.

In His arms.

Suzet,

I am interested in finding out more about this book. As ForverHers said, from what you presented so far, that this book has some serious problems with Scripture. But maybe that extract doesnt show in its entirety wha tthe author was trying to portray. So, as I said, I would much rather read the book and then take it before God's word and in prayer.

In His arms.

SS, you are so very right here. Good post!

In His arms.

Well, yes. God gave us freewill. He honors our choices. But, He also has freewill. And just because he gave us a choice doesnt mean He gave His up.


Jesus was tempted. Temptation is NOT a sin. But actions arent the only way to sin, as Jesus pointed out. If you receive that temptation, and then think about it...you are then sinning. Example?? Okay, a pretty woman walks down the street. I walk by and see her and the first thought into my head was "My, my..." You guys know what I am talking about here. But, if I then go up to her and try to get a date, I would be wrong because I am a married man. I think we can all agree that was sin. But, let's say I dont say anythign to her. But instead, I continue to walk, pondering all the things I would do with this woman if I wasnt married and had a chance to be with her. THAT IS SIN! And it is the same adultery as if I had slept with her. So, in short...temptation is not a sin. But actions or even holding onto that temptation in your mind, most assuredly is a sin.


Unfortunately, it isnt those sins that condemn us to He!!. There is only one sin that does that. You see, all of these sins that we talk about here were taken care of on the Cross. The sin that keeps us from Heaven and eternal life is when we do not accept Jesus' sacrifice and accept Him as Lord. Then God says "Fine, you did not want to accept the payment My Son made on your behalf...well, now, you get to make the payment." So, getting caught up in who did what sin, etc is a lost cause. The only real question is has a person accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, repented of his sins, and accepted Jesus into his life. After that, it is just about sanctification, which is the continuing process of making us more like Christ.



You are right. But remember, God also provided His Son to pay the penalty for all of those sins. Thus, the only sin that will condemn us is the one of rejection of Christ and His work on the Cross.


Good stuff there!

In His arms.

Scary indeed! Good points.

In His arms.

You are doing a great job, my friend. But never fear...Mortarman is always up for a discussion about my Lord and what He wants out of all of us.

Okay, I’m back. I want to respond to a couple of things which was said so far on this thread and I will do so throughout the day as I can find the time at work.

Let me start by saying that a few things were said by some of you Christian posters which again has raised some serious concerns in me and show again that there is a serious lack of sensitivity, insight, understanding & compassion on this issue of homosexuality. The most shocking was to read how some posters actually compared the sexual orientation & urges of a homosexual to that of a pedophile! How sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I wonder what gay Christen believers who struggle with homosexual urges and temptations will think if they come here and read such words… Do those of you who said it and compared the homosexually orientated people to pedophiles don’t think such words will sent a message of rejection and condemnation to gay oriented believers who might read here? Not very Christian, compassionate, empathetic or sensitive IMO… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I will fully elaborate on this later. I will also explain why I think the sin of homosexuality can not be compared to crimes like child molestation, theft, murder, rape, adultery etc.

For now, I will just respond on the following from ForeverHers:

FH, no, nor me or the author of the book are saying or implying that practicing homosexuals who are NOT willing to resist & fight their homosexual temptations & urges should be accepted in the church. I thought the whole quote from that book made it very clear. Maybe, to make it more clearer, I should have said that: [color:"blue"]The church is responsible to let every gay orientated believer who have overcome or who are actively try to overcome the homosexual urges and temptations be a beloved member of the body of Christ. [/color]

I think “church discipline” must only apply to people who are unrepentant, unremorseful and show NO willingness to overcome or resist a specific sin or temptation… Remember, to overcome a specific sin and temptation is a process and usually it takes much time to overcome it – overcoming a specific sin or temptation is not something which will necessarily happen overnight or the minute you repent & surrender yourself to God.

The same goes for homosexuals. Therefore, a newly repentant homosexual in the church who have surrendered him/herself to God and have or wants to “give up” the homosexual lifestyle, will most probably experience difficulties in doing so and he/she will probably experience a few setbacks before he/she will finally succeed in overcoming it. It's like a baby who learn to walk.

And here the role of the church comes in: IMO the church must help, support and encourage such a person to overcome his/her struggle and not condemn and reject them if they struggle and fail in doing so. As I have quoted from the book:

[color:"blue"]The body of Christ can support gay people and have to serve the gay society with the love of Jesus Christ. This task involves the encouragement of the gay believers in their struggle to sublimate homosexual passions.[/color]

AND

[color:"blue"]Just as difficult as it is for the prayer less person to practice the discipline of prayer, is the path of sublimation for the gay believer. But the hour has arrived where the forgotten perspective – the attitude and disposition of Christ – have to be found back.[/color]

Jesus have empathy, understanding and compassion for our struggles in overcoming our own personal temptations & sinful behaviors and the church should practice the same love and compassion towards its members (including homosexuals who have not yet mastered their urges and temptations, but who have a willing spirit and desire to do so).

Blessings,
Suzet

Edited to add:
FH, also check out my post to dorry please.

i noticed a few of you compared my question to adultery...that was a nice side step. i also noticed neither of you answered it! come on...we share so much here...tell me about the day you CHOSE.

and please notice nowhere on here have i said i dont think its a sin. i dont think its a choice to be this way. any actions taken are ALWAYS A CHOICE. i dont need to be reminded that ws's could use the same words....i've lived in those shoes....

Exactly! Well said dorry. I agree with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It boils down again to ”hate the sin, but love the sinner”. I think sometimes people confuse acceptance with approval. It’s possible to accept someone’s behavior (because it’s his/her choice) without approving it. Some people think if you accept the wrong behavior of someone you automatically approves it, but of course this is not true…

For example, my brother practiced pre-marital sex with his GF, she has gotten pregnant, the baby was born last week, and my brother is still not married to her. Now, my father don’t want to accept the GF OR the innocent baby in his house because he thinks if he do that it will looks like he is approving by brother and his GF’s behavior. As a result my father is now condemning my brother, his GF and the poor baby. My father clearly confuses acceptance with approval. This is a very sad situation.

I, on the other had, made it VERY clear to my brother that I think living together with his GF and practicing pre-marital sex is WRONG before God, but it is still his choice and I’m willing to accept (not approve) the situation out of respect and love for my brother. He knows how I feel about this whole situation and he and his GF’s behavior, but I’m not going to condemn them. And if my brother and/or his GF wants to go with me to church, I will definitely not deny them to do so…because maybe they will receive a message which will help to convince them to change their wrong and sinful lifestyle.

The same goes should I have a gay friend who have not yet given up his/her homosexual lifestyle, but want to go to church and learn about God. Therefore, I think in some degree the church can accept active homosexuals in the church without approving the behavior. How else can they learn about God, learn about His teachings and become convinced to change their lifestyle? What better place than a loving, compassionate church Of Christ where the people care about the sinners, accept them but don't approve their sin? What better way to lead someone to God and on the right path?

Suzet, have you ever heard of NAMBLA? If not, I'd strongly suggest you "look into it." It IS, in my opinion, an association of homosexuals DEDICATED to pedophilia with young BOYS, hence the "Man/Boy part of their name. My "Christian" and "Human" compassion, love, and concern are for the young boys who are the intended victims of this sick homosexual group. It is NOT "just another harmless 'ol lifestyle," and I could care less if I "offend" proponents of such a heinous sin, they NEED, imho, "offending" to hopefully get some of them to reconsider their choices and to protect the children from predators.

Will they ever change? That's up to God, but I personally think that they have been "given over" to their depravity and have no chance of ever softening their hearts to receive Christ. They HAVE chosen, and chosen against Christ. There IS always the "hope" of a "deathbed conversion," ala the one thief on the cross with Christ, but in the meantime, I'm all for protecting the children and abandoning the perpetrators of such sick sin to a deserted island somewhere, where they can prey on each other.

"Appeasement," "tolerance," "concern for THEIR (the perpetrators) feelings," is NOT how to "confront sin" as Jesus would. Jesus put it plainly...."go now and LEAVE your life of sin." That is the answer to the question that gets tossed around so carelessly sometimes....What Would Jesus Do?

God bless.

FH, I understand what you are saying and I agree with everything you said about the NAMBLA practice (it’s very disgusting and I also very bad for those boys <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />), but I want to make it clear that this thread and topic is NOT about homosexuals who are dedicated to pedophilia with young BOYS and practice such evil behavior. Such behavior is also called CHILD MOLESTATION and SEXUAL CHILD ABUSE - an entirely different and an issue I feel VERY strong about (because I was sexually abused as a child myself).

However, this thread and topic of discussion is about people with a homosexual identity who choose to enter a homosexual relationship with another ADULT SAME-SEX PERSON because of their sexual identity and orientation. I’m also talking about gay orientated believers who don’t want to be that way and didn’t CHOOSE their sexual orientation and identity, but struggle with homosexual urges and temptations because of it.

You can’t compare the struggles of gay orientated Christen believers to that of homosexual pedophiles who don't care what they do to their victims (the boys)... As I've said, it’s an ENTIRELY different issue and this thread is about the first group who are NOT child molesters.

Suzet,

I hear what you are trying to get at. It is like the exaple of which way is more effective"

1. Yelling at a heathen to "repent or die"
2. Ministering to a heathen the truth in love and compassion

Obviously both ways would be telling the truth. And most would say the second way would be the best way...but I say not in all cases.

The second way was obvious with Jesus when He interacted with the woman at the well. He was kind, but firm. And He told her to go and sin no more. So, although He was compassionate, He didnt hold back any punches with her. He told her she was in sin, had five husbands. That she was an adulteress. Does that sound compassionate? Well, if He had been saying this to a homosexual today, He would be chastised for being insensitive. Of course He was being compassionate.

The first way Jesus also used. Remember when He talked to the Pharises? He called them a brood of vipers and told them that they followed their father, the Devil. Sounds sensitive doesnt it? Compassionate? How dare Jesus get angry and dump over tables in the synogogue? How dare He whip the tax collectors?

You see, this is not all cut and dried here. I do agree that Christians should be sensitive in how they speak, in order to be more effective and have the message of the word of God reach the ears of the lost. But I do not agree that telling the truth is a bad thing.

Here is a case-in-point. You were upset in your last post about having homosexuality compared to pedophiles? What's the difference? Okay, you might say that children dont have the emotional ability to chose the right thing and are being taken advantage of. Okay, I'll accept that difference. But what about the urge to want to be with a child? Isnt that the same urge that the homosexual has? Isnt it a sexual urge that is sinful and must not be acted upon? You see, I always have had a problem with pornography. I have that urge to want to see it. It took awhile for the Lord to free me from those bonds. Now, should someone come up and try to be sensitive with me because I carry this urge to want to partake of porno? or should they hold me accountable as a Christian, understanding that I do have this weakness? Should they not help me stay on the narrow road?

Every one of us has a Cross to bear. Every one of us has sinful urges, some that will hound us for a lifetime. Alcoholism, drugs, adultery, homosexuality, pedofilia, thievery, etc. So, for me to hold a Christian who has homosexual urges to a standard different than other Christians with different sinful urges, would be wrong.

I understand your point of a homosexual reading this stuff and getting turned off from it. But no where in here do I see anyone making a personal attack against them, just as we dont take a personal attack against a WS. We tell them they are wrong, we tell them why, and we tell them what they need to do to get right with God.

And that is in keeping with the way Jesus performed His ministry while on Earth.

In His arms.

Mortarman, let me explain why I think the sin of homosexuality can not be compared to crimes like child molestation, theft, murder, rape, adultery etc:

In all of the examples above (pedophiles, thefts, murderer, rapists, adulterers etc.) it’s about CRIMES which are committed against VICTIMS e.g.

the victim of the pedophile is the boy or girl who has been abused...
the victim of the theft is the person who have lost his/her belongings because of the theft...
the victim of the murderer is the person who has been murdered...
the victim of the rapists is the raped woman (or man)...
the victim of the adulterer is the BS and his/her kids/family...
etc. etc. etc.

So in all the cases above, there is a VICTIM involved and the purpose of the behaviors above is to do DAMAGE to another person. In a homosexual relationship between two same-sex people - where both have choose to enter into an exclusive and intimate relationship with each other - there is no victim involved. Can you see the difference?

Also keep in mind that two homosexual people who enter into an intimate relationship with each other and live together, don’t necessarily have to be sexual with each other and practice the “sexual act”. An intimate relationship involves much more than just “sex” and “sexual intimacy”. Popel tend to think that homosexual relationship is just about sex. So now I ask myself:

Where does one draw the line? What did God mean when He said two men and two women are not allowed to “lay together”? Was he only talking about sexual interactions or did He refer to the relationship as a whole? WHAT IF 2 homosexual orientated people decide to stay together and have an intimate relationship on all other areas than sex? (In other words, if they have emotional intimacy and show affection to each other, but exclude “sexual acts” from their relationship)? Is such type of involvement also prohibited by God? So, are homosexual orientated people not allow to have ANY type of intimate involvement (on other areas than sex) with someone of the same sex at all? So are they not allowed to have an intimate relationship and be life partners on friendship and emotional level with anothr same sex person at all? WHAT IF it's possible for the two homosexual partners to love each other in an intimate relationship but stay "celibate" (withold themselves from each other on sexual level)? Will the church just automatically assume that 2 homosexual people who are living together and show affection to each other, also have a sexual involvement and as a result abandon them from church? WHAT IF these poeple are condemned and abandoned from church while they ARE stay "celibate" within the relationship but no one believes them?

I ask all these question to give people something to think about and show them that this issue is not just black and white and as clear cut as it seems on the surface…