ForeverHers, I originally posted the following message to you on ScaredinGA's thread, but since I don’t want to threadjack her thread any further than it already has been threadjacked, I decided to delete it there and send it to you in this new post:

ForeverHers, as a Christian I know what the Bible says about homosexuality.

How I view it, a homosexual lifestyle is a sin but NOT the sexual orientation itself. Therefore IMHO homosexual orientation/feelings ONLY become a sin when such people ACT on those feelings.

For the above reason I have much empathy and compassion for Christians who are homosexual and want to live a God-feared life, but struggle greatly because of their sexual orientation... Sexual orientation can have many origins, one of which I believe can have a genetic origin and/or negative experiences from childhood like sexual abuse, etc.

Again, I have empathy and compassion for people who can’t help or change their sexual orientation...and surpress these feelings so that they can be accepted by the church and society. And I belief God/Jesus have the same compassion/sympathy for them. Do YOU have empathy and compassion for them ForeverHers?

I know there are many good, Christian people on this earth who have severe internal suffering and feelings of guilt & shame because of their sexual orientation. I think it must be an ENORMOUS cross for those people to carry… Don’t you think? Can you just imagine how difficult it must be for a homosexual Christian to live a single, lonely and celibate life – without a loving, nurturing & intimate partner by their side and to share their lives with – because of their sexual orientation and because they don’t want to give into a homosexual lifestyle?

And even if such people become too tempted or weak and give into the homosexual lifestyle with one committed partner, it’s between them and God and I’m not in a position to judge them at all because you can’t judge until you have walked in the same shoes.

Only God knows what is truly going on in the the heart, life and mind of such a person and only He will decide if the person will receive eternal life or not... Our job is to love the person although we don't have to accept/approve his/her lifestyle. Jesus said: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner". And this includes having emphathy and compassion for other's (including all their faults & weaknesses).

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, with all due respect, your question to me, itself, violates your claim of "not being able to judge."

So where do you want to draw the line on "judging?" How do you want to define "judging?"

Your post, though replete with your own opinions and judgments and assumptions about me DOES ask a serious question or two, and as a sister in Christ I will take the time to give you a cogent response.

But, so you don't have to wait, here's the "Cliff notes" version....Yes, I have sympathy and compassion for them as I do for ANYONE who is a CHRISTIAN and either caught up themselves in the snares of sin or is a victim of sin or natural disasters in a world that HAS evil in it and Satan roaming it "seeking whom he may devour."

Your premise of not being able to "Form an opinion or 'judgment' without personally having experienced the condition" is a FALSE premise. Think about the ramifications of your premise for a minute. Do you have to BE a murderer, or a victim of rape, to KNOW that they are bad on the testimony of those who HAVE "been there, done that" and to JUDGE those behaviors to be sinful and bad and NOT in accord with God's commands as clearly revealed in Scripture?

Does a "jury of peers" NOT have the right and obligation to "judge" according to the laws even though none of the jurors has personally "walked in the same shoes" as the offender?

God Bless.

ForeverHers, when you read the above words in it's entire context you will see I'm was talking about judging a PERSON according to his sexual orientation and the weaknesses/temptations they experience as a result of that. I was NOT talking about crimes (stealing, murder, rape etc.) people commit here on earth - it's irrelative. OF COURSE those things are ENTIRELY different issues.

Sexual orientation (which is NOT always a choice) is a very sensitive issue and on the other thread your approach didn't really seem emphatetic and compassionate towards people who suffer with this. This is why I've asked you the question. You seemed to think that sexual orientation is a choice because you've said to the poster on the other thread that a Christian counsellor needs to address her H's homosexual feelings as well. The thing is, his feelings can't be changed, only his actions. Maybe I've made the wrong assumption and if I did I'm sorry.

And nowhere in my posts have a made opinions, judgments and assumptions about you. I have just asked you some honest questions and gave you my opinion on the subject. That's all. I don't understand why my post triggered so much anger in you. As a siter in Christ, I thought I could discuss this with you in a civil way because your responses on the other thread have raised some serious concerns in me.

FH, as a Christian you are also suppose to have symphathy and compassion for people who are non-Christians - not JUST Christians. Jesus instructed us to love ALL PEOPLE...including our enemy. That's why he said "Hate the sin but love the sinner". This is the only way you can lead another person to God and help him/her to receive eternal life.

***MOVED FROM OTHER THREAD BY TM***

I really think KaylaAndy said it best on the other thread...

Assuming the "born" side of the arguement is 100% true...isn't it just the same as any other genetic-linked compulsion? Be it OCD, any number of phobias, or even schizophrenia. Remeber "A Beautiful Mind," where John Nash knew he could never rid himself of his condition, yet he could resist giving himself over fully to the disease. He chose to fight.

Before everyone here piles on me...NO, I am not suggesting that homosexuality/bisexuality be re-listed as a disorder in the DSM-IV...nor am I suggesting that it is an illness. But it is a condition, or a desire. All of us face our own personal set of challenges in our life. And those of us who are Christians can chose to resist that what the Bible teaches as wrong, or we can chose to give in and embrace such things. God knows our struggles, and will give us the necessary strength to follow the right path if we ask.

My personal belief on the born v. bred, and I speak from a fairly knowledgeable position, is that both play a role in the development of our sexuality.

But in the end, the ultimate choice lies with us. We have a beautiful thing...it is called free will.

---------------

If we could put aside our cultural and societal prejudices for a moment, doesn't this boil down to the fact that Scared's WH was kissing ANOTHER HUMAN BEING? And all of us would agree that is wrong. I think this issue should be addressed first, because if her WH has no interest in remaining married to her, it doesn't matter if he is cheating with a man, a woman, or even a dog!

Let's say my WW was sleeping with 3 different men at once while we are married...shouldn't I address the fact that she is being unfaithful to me first, then deal with the fact that she is having premarital sex promiscuously?

I know there are those who will refer me to Harley's comments on addiction, and how nothing can be done until that problem is solved. But to that I say the most important part of controlling ANY desire, whether you label it addiction, compulsion, or tendency...is to WANT to change. If there is no desire to fight what we believe for ourselves to be right, then we will be forever unhappy and lost.

I am not in favor of moral relativism of any sort, however, I also do not believe that it is my place to stand up and tell you you better do this or that. I will tell you what I believe, and why I believe it...and also what I believe to be the consequences of acting apart from what is in my personal rule book, aka the bible.

Just because moral absolutes exist, doesn't mean any of us must follow them...we still ultimately choose.



TM

TM - Well said...

Can I express another example? Having worked quite a bit with troubled youth, it frequently strikes me that these troubled youth will very likely be turning into troubled adults. Many of them will end up in jail as criminals.

Does the fact that we can trace their roots back to a troubled past relinquish their guilt in their crimes? Not at all...but, when we as Christians can see beyond the present, into the past, we can begin to have a glimmer of understanding and compassion. However, the consequences of their actions still must be "just" and "fair", but we don't have to stand in line to throw the stones....

Georgia

No, I don’t think it’s the same… Sexuality is a basic human instinct and homosexual people who don't/can’t express their sexuality towards their own sex because of their faith, religion or whatever, basically have to suppress their sexuality because there is no other place they can canalize their sexual energy too. Of course homosexual people can choose to fight their feelings, but I just think it must be an ENRMOUS internal struggle to them because the suppressing of sexuality in itself is unnatural and goes against human nature. God created all people as sexual beings.

This is true…but again, I think homosexuality must be an ENORMOUS cross for Christian people to carry. Something I think no one will be able to understand until they have walked in the same shoes…

I think homosexuality is much more complex than the example of the premarital sex promiscuously above… The problem is, many homosexual people can’t and don’t express their homosexual feelings because of their religion, beliefs, guilt, shame and fear to be rejected by God, church and society. As a result many of them want to appear ‘normal’ and enter marriages in spite of their sexual orientation. Many do this because they think marriage will ‘cure’ their ‘condition’ and hide it from the world… And sadly this doesn’t happen and many years later all this suppressed feelings bottled out and the homosexual spouse fail to hide his/her sexual orientation forever. This is a very complex situation and I think this is probably what happened in Scared’s WH’s case. Of course it was wrong and betraying behavior to kiss another man, but I think in his case his homosexuality is the MAIN problem and not the betrayal itself.

Again, homosexual orientation is much more complex than this… You can’t change something which CAN’T be changed… And sexual orientation is one of those things which can’t be changed if the origin of it is genetic and deep settled (except if you start to change the WHOLE make-up of the person e.g. physically, emotionally, mentally etc. which I think is almost impossible.) It is the same as expecting a heterosexual person to become homosexually orientated. It doesn’t work this way.

Suzet, once again I am too tired, and perhaps even a little angry(not with you but with several others), to respond properly to your post. So I just quoted this small piece to give you a brief response, and acknowledgment that I AM reading what you are posting.

Suzet, I do have some sympathy and compassion for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Christians, in following the biblical principle of "love thy neighbor." ScaredinGA IS a Christian, by her admission and I am NOT interested in "leading her to Christ," she is already there.

Please don't overlook what the Scripture also has to say about what is "expected" from those who profess belief in Christ AND what we are expected to do, including Matthew 18:15-20 and "church discipline." The OBJECT of all "correction and confrontation" in love is the RESTORATION of fellowship with God and with fellow believers. There can be NO "restoration" or "fellowship" with unbelievers, they are NOT part of the covenant of salvation through Christ.

Suz, in my case, 3.5 years ago I was "willing" to divorce my wife even though I intensely loved her and hated her sin of adultery at the same time. I made it clear to her then, and it holds true for me and all of us likewise, that there can BE no restoration of a Christian marriage without the sinner FIRST repenting of his/her sin to God and then seeking forgiveness and restoration. I told my wife that I would "go to my grave loving her," but I would not live with her while she was in open and willful rebellion against God and the Marriage Covenant. If that is "too tough" a stance, then I stand guilty and stand ready for a flogging.

Also, I would submit that there are some nonbelievers who are "so far gone" in the hardness of their hearts that no amount of "love and compassion" on our part will help. It IS ultimately up to God, not us, to draw someone to God and soften their hearts. It is OUR JOB to "stand for God" and to "be ready to answer someone who inquires WHY we believe what we believe." They don't have to "like" or "accept" the answer we give, but that's no different that it ever has been for God, so why should we expect anything different when we choose to take a stand FOR God instead of "man's way?"

Some folks, as in most Pedophiles, are "lost" in their sin and not "rehabilitative" by even the most expert psychiatrist. Do I "love" that sort of person? In a way I do, in the same sense that God "so loved the world" and wants ALL to choose Christ and live. But the REALITY is that the "way" is only through the "narrow gate" of Christ no matter how much I "hate the sin and love the sinner." That is why we must EACH repent (that is, choose to "turn away" and "forsake" our desire to sin) and choose to follow God in humble obedience to HIS commands, no matter what we are feeling.

Do I "love" my wife's ex-OM? In the same biblical sense as with the above Pedophile. He is unrepentant and an unbeliever. He will "answer to God," not me (at least I choose not to sue him, North Carolina laws about 'alienation of affection' have teeth in them). But I am NOT going to try to "lead him to Christ." I leave that in God's hands, and as much as (as a human MAN) I'd like to see him "rot in hades" for the pain and suffering his selfishness has visited upon my family, I surrender his ultimate fate to God. If he should become a believer at some point and come seeking my forgiveness, I would forgive him because God has commaned it of me because of what God has forgiven me, NOT because I "feel like" forgiving him. I would forgive out of obedience, not out of emotional response.

God bless.

Mr. Wondering and I, like many other Christians I suspect, were discussing ScaredinGA's thread last night...Here is our fear...Because of all of the seemingly radical Christian debate that took place on her thread, look at who she reached out to...an atheist. As Christians, we should never allow someone, who is a declared non-believer, to seem the more compassionate and caring among us...I believe that Satan is thrilled that we did this, and I am ashamed and repentant for ANY part that I may have played in it in the one post that I did choose to enter. The Bible says, "to those who much is given, much is expected", and I feel like we Christians fell quite short there. It is my hope that we all will spend a great deal of time in prayer for ScaredinGA that she will allow herself to follow God's will regarding her situation, and that she is able to seek support and guidance on this forum without feeling attacked...

Just my .02...


Mrs. Wondering


P.S. Suzet, I agree with your take on homosexuality completely...

I am sorry to have to disagree with you, Suzet...but I must.

From a strictly secular point of view, you are selling the power of the mind way short. Something I learned from my very good friend I met while living in CA, and she is dangerously intelligent, probably one of the most insightful, analytical people I have ever known...

"Perception is reality..." Or more specifically "OUR perception creates OUR OWN reality..."

By this I mean that we can create, through sheer desire, a different reality, or our world-view is entirely changeable, subject to the force of our will, whether consciously or sub-consciously.




Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can fracture into many seperate and completely distinct "individuals" in an attempt to handle radical, horrific abuse...cannot change their geneticly predisposed inclinations?

Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can take control of normal autonomic processes, and put them into such a state of meditation as to survive in an airtight room for hours on end...cannot change their geneticl predisposed inclinations?

Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can release the right neurotransmitters and other chemicals that allow the body to lift a car that has pinned a loved one in an accident...cannot change their geneticly predisposed inclinations?





These are just a few of the amazing, and often inexplicable abilities of our minds...keeping in mind (pun intended) that we use a very small portion of our brain even in today's age of knowledge and education.

I don't think we can grasp what the limits of the mind even ARE. I think to chalk it up to essentially "my genetics made me do it..." is an utter cop out.



And this is not even going into we tiny-brained humans attempting to put limits on the abilities of God. How can we even try to establish boundaries for something so above and beyond our ability to concieve as God, when we can't truly grasp a simple concept like the infiniteness of the universe? Just try to grasp the concept for a moment, "infinite"... It makes your head hurt, don't it? And we want to put limits on God? Seems awfully presumptuous of us little humans, no?


Suzet, I do respect your opinion, and think you have given some great advice in the past...I hope you don't misconstrue this as a personal attack...it was not intended a such...


TM

(((FH))), thanks for your thorough response on the last piece of my second post. I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate the time you’ve taken to explain your POV.

Regarding the subject on homosexuality - please read my response to TravellinMan on this thread to have a better understanding of my opinion on this. You’re welcome to post your thoughts too and give your opinion on what I’ve posted when you feel less tired! I’m sorry I’ve catch you on a ‘bad day’… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I value your input and I didn’t mean to add to your negative feelings with my original post... I think your contributions to these boards are very valuable and I have much respect for you – but you know this by now. And as people in Christ I also think it’s okay for Christians to sometimes differ on subjects and listen to each others opinions and perceptions… Thanks for the time you’ve took to ‘listen’ to mine FH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Travellinman, IMO homosexuality and the impossibility to change sexual orientation it is NOT about “power of mind”. It has nothing to do with that. People can’t change their sexual orientation with “mind power”. If this was true homosexuals could easily change themselves to heterosexuals and then there won’t be people on this earth who are homosexually orientated because who wants to be a person who are rejected by churches and society in general?

TM, I understand what you’re trying to prove to me with your post, but I don’t buy it in this regard of sexual orientation. I have just heard and read of too many homosexual people who live an unhappy and difficult life because of their sexual orientation… People who DON’T want to be homosexual, but can’t help it…and try to fight those homosexual instincts with all they can… Because they fear God and want to be accepted by churches and society.

I do believe God can work miracles and yes He can change ANYTHING if He wants to, but it doesn’t say he WILL. In the Bible God says: ”Take your cross and follow me”. So God won’t necessarily take the cross away…

I never suggested that it was easy...nor did I suggest that every homosexual (or compulsive gambler, or schizophrenic, or whatever) had it within them to do it. I merely stated it is possible, as evidenced by those who have fought their natural (whether inborn, taught, or whatever) inclinations, and mastered them.

To allow that we are powerless victims walking through life, generally becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is not to say that anyone with an affliction/inclination/tendency should be castigated or ridiculed for being too weak to stand up and fight for their deepest held beliefs...nor should they be offhandedly excused and given no encouragement to follow the path that they believe to be the righteous one.

Does that make sense?

I am mostly refering to those that profess to be Christians and have such issues. We, as Christians, as friends, heck, as human beings...should offer a hand up and encouragement to help those who wish to change their situation, instead of telling them that they cannot do anything about it, so they may as well accept it and embrace it.

My above statement does not encompass those who have no desire or drive to change any of their present situation. I am not recommending that we ever force any kind of change on any other person.


As is said here frequently, "You cannot change someone else, you can only change yourself..."


There is a fine line between accepting a given behavior, and condoning it. Therein lies the challege before us, as Christians, in our everyday lives, our attitudes, and our words...accept and encourage others to become better people. And share with them what, in our view, that entails...IF THEY WISH TO KNOW. The ultimate decision will always reside with the individual.


Isn't this fun?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TM

"As Christians, we should never allow someone, who is a declared non-believer, to seem the more compassionate and caring among us...I believe that Satan is thrilled that we did this, and I am ashamed and repentant for ANY part that I may have played in it in the one post that I did choose to enter."


Mrs Wondering that is scary stuff. I have realised now why I never chose to post here before and this will be my very last post on this site. It's a Christian based forum and I accept that. As I said in my first post, it's one of the reasons I've been a lurker so long. What scares me in your post is such total ignorance and lack of understanding regarding my character as an atheist. Why oh why should an atheist not be able to show more compassion and understanding then a Christian ? Do Christians have a monopoly on these values ? And what has Satan got to do with it ? I don't blame you for feeling this way, it's down to your conditioning, but as an atheist I can honestly tell you that I am more Christian in how I live my life than many self proclaimed Christians I know. I try to live by most of the same rules, only for me they're self imposed which makes them more meaningful. I try not to wrong or hurt other people and I'm sorry when I do, I try to forgive people who wrong me, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery and so on and so on. I also choose not to believe that Jesus was the son of God. I also choose not to believe in the existence of God. That doesn't make me a bad person, that doesn't mean I have no morals, that doesn't mean I don't know right from wrong, it just means I'm responsable for my actions, for my shortcomings and for my mistakes. But I don't answer to a higher being. I answer to me and the people around me who can be affected by my actions, my family, my friends, my colleagues etc. We're all just trying to get along in this world, trying to better ourselves and become good people. Some choose Christianity to help them, some are just conditioned to believe that way and without challenging it they know no different. Some choose Judaism, some choose the Muslim faith. Each to their own. I'm going to bow out now and would ask the moderator to delete my account. I will continue to lurk and if ScaredinGA wants help, or just someone to talk to I'm there. I also have some experience that may help her in the long run. I will also continue to use the MB principals to help myself and my partner work together towards a better relationship and one that lasts as long as we do however long that may be.

Good luck to everyone on here in finding the same thing.

When a woman has an abortion - the people comdemming her at the front doors, saying she is killing her baby, guilting her, shaming her - are not the christians. The real christians are at the back door, comforting her, helping her find God as obviously she had lost God. They are they to show her that God can forgive her and love her. They are not there to condemn or shame or judge her.

In this case homosexuality. As Christians we do not agree with it and know it is wrong. But we are also told not to judge, so condemming someone for being a homosexual is not very Christian. How about helping them come to Christ - find their identity, comfort them, be kind to them...show them what Christianity REALLY is. And if they choose otherwise - then we are kind, respectful of their choice.

God will judge us all one day - and some of us Christians will be harshly judged for our treatment of others. What kind of Christian are you?

i have a small question to ask all of you who believe your sexual orientation is a choice.....

i know this probably happened when you were young, but......it was also a huge life choice.....so......



please, in detail, describe to me the day, hour, minute, and circumstances of when you chose? oh, come on now, it really shouldnt be that hard. think of all the other life choices you've made.....finding the "one", the day you or he proposed.....your wedding....the day you decided to become parents.....

this is a major life choice as are all the others i listed....i remember all the details of the other days VERY clearly...however i have no idea what, when, or why, i chose to love men......i just do. it was always there in me.....

so humor me and relive this life changing choice for me and re-count it for us......

I actually know someone who knows when they chose. He watched his father beat the crap out of his mother and there in that moment of time he decided that he did not want to be male in nature, but rejected what was male about him. When he did he realized that he then longed for someone male not like his father who could love him and treat him with respect and love and tenderness. As he grew that is what he sought out in males because he never found it in his father and so deperately wanted it.

The Wonderings - I fully understand what you were trying to say and it is partly the reason behind the admonition to "not" take a fellow believer to court.

But you also have to be careful to NOT extend that to an "unwillingness" to stand for God regardless of what others might think. Jesus did not take such a "Casper Milktoast" sort of role when the issues were in defiance of, and disobedience to, God's clear commands and teaching.

Jesus "cleared the temple," and he "took on" the Pharisses in open public debate. "He who has ears, let him listen," was Jesus' approach to "confrontation."

I'll bet that the members of the accusatory mob didn't like for one minute being called a sinner either when Jesus told them, "let the one who is without sin cast the first stone."

Understand, that confrontation in love IS what Jesus brought and taught. He made it clear that he came to "divide" those who would be "For Him" from those who would be "against Him." Those "not willing" to take the heat were cautioned about "following Him."

God bless.

Okay, Suzet, let’s see if I’ve calmed down enough to have a serious and deliberative discussion with you on a subject that has obviously touched a sensitive nerve in you.

I’ll begin with returning to your first post and then go on from there.


Okay, let’s take this out of “specifics” of homosexuality for a minute and into the realm of “sin in general.” Let’s talk first about Adultery. For purposes of this talk, let’s assume we are talking about a married person, be they Christian or otherwise.

First, the word “Adultery” is given a definition by God, society, or both God and society. According to Christian principles that date back to the Garden of Eden, marriage is between, and for, ONE man and ONE woman, exclusively. Adultery is “unfaithfulness” by a married person, regardless of whether or not the “partner” is same sex or opposite sex. “Forsaking ALL others” is the operative thought with respect to the covenant of marriage. God make HIS position crystal clear when He gave Moses the 10 Commandments for HIS people, the Israelites. Commandment 7: Thou shalt NOT commit adultery. Jesus further clarified this so that those who thought they had not PHYSICALLY had sex outside of marriage were still “okay” and somehow “better than” those who had committed the actual act (punishable by death prior to Jesus’ advent). If you mentally “lust after” someone other than your spouse you have “committed adultery” in your heart.

You seem to be confusing temptation of, or to, sin, with the actual commission of a sin. Understand that we are ALL born sinners, guilty of sin and separated from God. It matters not if one believes we are born with sin or “acquire” sin as we go along in life, the FACT is that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

For those who have NOT accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, it matters little whether or not they are “born” with sin and a proclivity to sin. They ARE lost (spiritually and eternally) and nothing we can do will change that. Only God can change that. We (Christians) CAN model Christ through our life, but we, too, still live in a “sin-natured body and in a sin-driven world). So even the “best of us will likely stumble and fall from that “model and walk” from time to time. We DO NOT set ourselves up as the model, we profess Christ as the model. We struggle, as did Paul, knowing and wanting to do what is right and godly and struggling against “wanting in the flesh” to do what is wrong. We try to CHOOSE to subjugate the body and our fleshly thoughts to God and to DO God’s will, not our own will and desires when they are in opposition to God.

“Homosexual orientation,” as you called it, is NOT in and of itself, a “sin.” But giving into those feelings, in direct opposition to what God has commanded and warned us NOT to do, whether it is mentally “lusting after” or physically engaging in, IS a sin. If someone “by nature” is a nymphomaniac, the desire for sex “all the time” is NOT itself a sin. ACTING on the “feeling” is.

That leads us to the next point of discussion. You stated:


I do NOT have to be a homosexual, or an adulterer, or a thief, or any other type of sin, to KNOW it is a sin if God has said it is. This “homosexual lifestyle” you are arguing for is the current “debate du jour” in the States to REDEFINE marriage and to say that a homosexual couple who has chosen to restrict their sin (yes, I know, that’s “Christian judgmentalism”) to each other is the same thing as the marriage that was established and ordained by God in the Garden of Eden. SANS God, and pro-anything goes, such an argument on behalf of homosexual “marriage’ would probably make sense, because we would all be defining “marriage” and “right and wrong” however we felt like defining it at the moment, with no immutable Standard of righteousness to go by. It truly would be a situation of “if it feels, good do it!”

But “man shall not lie with man as with a woman, it is an abomination.” Either we “take God at His word, or we don’t.” Non-Christians don’t take the “Christian” God at His revealed Word in the Word of God, that’s a given. Atheists don’t take God at all, so not taking any “Word of God” is easy for them.

Suzet, God’s word is “God’s Law.” Just as in our society, we are a “Nation of Laws,” we face anarchy and chaos if everyone gets to decide “which laws” they “like” and which laws they “don’t like,” which laws they will “obey” and which laws they “don’t feel like obeying.” God has placed His laws into existence FOR our benefit, just as society places laws into place for our collective benefit. Some, like “thou shalt not murder” have universal appeal and application. For most, so does “thou shalt not commit adultery.” But to “excuse” a homosexual sexual “couple” for CHOOSING to live in direct and open rebellion to God’s command regarding sexuality and marriage simply because they choose to “restrict” their sinning to each other “exclusively” is wrong. At the very least is “teaches” others that disobedience to God’s commands is “okay” and “no big thing.”

I am quite sure, even though it’s just an opinion, that there were probably many homosexual couples in Sodom and Gomorrah who were “exclusive” to each other, as well as other who ascribed to the San Francisco-esque “bathhouse” idea of casual sex and indiscriminate sex with as many other partners as possible. But God could not find even 10 “righteous souls” in those cities and saved only Lot and his family. The rest, God “judged.”


I know what you were talking about. But it IS exactly the same thing as any other “potential to sin.” It begins with a thought…it is how we respond to the “thought” that determines whether the thought will be “another temptation in our life” or indulged and allowed to become a sin in “thought or deed.” You might, for example, be in financial hardship at home, perhaps have been as long as you can remember, and you find yourself in a position to alleviate that hardship, the desire for MONEY, by taking some from where you work because “no one but me and “God” will ever know.” It is NOT the feeling, it is giving into the feeling that leads to sin. Homosexuals, along with thieves, murderers, adulterers, liars, bigots, etc., will BE in heaven IF they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ.

Yes, Suzet, they may continue to struggle with their “sin nature” all their lives. That’s no different in that respect than what we all struggle with…OUR sin nature.

Perhaps it will help to clarify this point if I use my own recovery as an example. My wife has “slipped” many times in the past 3.5 years and had contact with her OM. Each “slip,” regardless of reason, was a willful and deliberate choice she made when faced with the temptation to “contact or not to contact.” The sin was against God and against me. But God places the “onus” on me that if a fellow believer sins against me “seventy times seven times” and repents, I am to forgive AS God has forgiven me and continues to forgive me when I fail and sin.

The “sin nature” will be with us until we die. But God gave us Free Will to be able to CHOOSE and not just “act on instinct” the way animals do. It is our CHOICES that God will hold us accountable for, beginning with our choice “for or against” Jesus Christ.


Suz, “Christianity” is a “come as you are party,” if you’ll forgive the analogy. God DOES NOT ask us to first become “holy” and then come to Him. He tells us to come to in whatever condition we are in THROUGH Christ, and that through the lifelong process of Sanctification, will help us to conform our lives to more and more “Christ-likeness.”

” your approach didn't really seem emphatetic and compassionate towards people who suffer with this.”

I may not be the most “empathetic or compassionate” person toward someone (particularly a profession Christian) engaging in willful sin against God’s commands. Should I be “empathetic and compassionate” toward my wife while she is in throes of adultery with another man, or should I do whatever I can to help her “wake up and see she is sinning against God, let alone against me?” I do tend toward the more analytical and “right side” of the brain,. maybe sometimes even a “bull in a china shop” sort of thing. I am empathetic and compassionate toward anyone, with any proclivity that they are struggling with, who is TRYING to be obedient to God because they are a Christian. I, likewise, have little patience and compassion for someone who wants to “justify” continuing to sin and blame someone, or something, else, ala “the devil made me do it.”

CHANGE requires the necessity of “conflict.” Until there is “conflict” there is no motivation to change. This where things like “silence connotes acceptance and agreement” comes into play. “Don’t judge” is another attempt to silence “conflict” that might call into question the “rightness or wrongness” of what someone is CHOOSING, regardless of the “justifications.”

Allow me, at this point, to repeat what I said previously in response to what you wrote here:


I do have some sympathy and compassion for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Christians, in following the biblical principle of "love thy neighbor." ScaredinGA IS a Christian, by her admission and I am NOT interested in "leading her to Christ," she is already there.

Please don't overlook what the Scripture also has to say about what is "expected" from those who profess belief in Christ AND what we are expected to do, including Matthew 18:15-20 and "church discipline." The OBJECT of all "correction and confrontation" in love is the RESTORATION of fellowship with God and with fellow believers. There can be NO "restoration" or "fellowship" with unbelievers, they are NOT part of the covenant of salvation through Christ.

Suzet, in my case, 3.5 years ago I was "willing" to divorce my wife even though I intensely loved her and hated her sin of adultery at the same time. I made it clear to her then, and it holds true for me and all of us likewise, that there can BE no restoration of a Christian marriage without the sinner FIRST repenting of his/her sin to God and then seeking forgiveness and restoration. I told my wife that I would "go to my grave loving her," but I would not live with her while she was in open and willful rebellion against God and the Marriage Covenant. If that is "too tough" a stance, then I stand guilty and stand ready for a flogging.

Also, I would submit that there are some nonbelievers who are "so far gone" in the hardness of their hearts that no amount of "love and compassion" on our part will help. It IS ultimately up to God, not us, to draw someone to God and soften his or her hearts. It is OUR JOB to "stand for God" and to "be ready to answer someone who inquires WHY we believe what we believe." They don't have to "like" or "accept" the answer we give, but that's no different that it ever has been for God, so why should we expect anything different when we choose to take a stand FOR God instead of "man's way?"

Some folks, as in most Pedophiles, are "lost" in their sin and not "rehabilitative" by even the most expert psychiatrist. Do I "love" that sort of person? In a way I do, in the same sense that God "so loved the world" and wants ALL to choose Christ and live. But the REALITY is that the "way" is only through the "narrow gate" of Christ no matter how much I "hate the sin and love the sinner." That is why we must EACH repent (that is, choose to "turn away" and "forsake" our desire to sin) and choose to follow God in humble obedience to HIS commands, no matter what we are feeling.

Do I "love" my wife's ex-OM? In the same biblical sense as with the above example of a Pedophile. He is unrepentant and an unbeliever. He will "answer to God," not me (at least I choose not to sue him, North Carolina laws about 'alienation of affection' have teeth in them). But I am NOT going to try to "lead him to Christ." I leave that in God's hands, and as much as (as a human MAN) I'd like to see him "rot in Hades" for the pain and suffering his selfishness has visited upon my family, I surrender his ultimate fate to God. If he should become a believer at some point and come seeking my forgiveness, I would forgive him because God has commanded it of me because of what God has forgiven me, NOT because I "feel like" forgiving him. I would forgive out of obedience, not out of emotional response.



I DO think “it’s the same.” You seem to be trying to argue that “Sexuality,” or in this case the specific sexuality of “homosexuality,” is NOT a sin. Yes, there may be an “enormous” internal struggle, but for Christians that isn’t the point. We WILL struggle against sin, sometimes mightily, all of our lives for a variety of “sins” and “feelings.”

“Be ye holy for I am holy,” is God’s command with respect to HOW we choose when faced with difficulties, trials, and temptations. By the same token, don’t lose sight of the fact that ADULTERY, “homo or hetero,” IS grounds for a faithful spouse to divorce the unfaithful spouse even though the “sin” is forgiven. MARRIAGE is the covenant relationship of ONE man and ONE woman and is “set apart” by God as both wonderful and a “mystery of one flesh” that is created in marriage. God’s Marriage with mankind was broken through the “adulterous” actions of Adam and Eve in choosing sin over obedience to God. I have NO DOUBT that the fruit was most appealing to look at and most tasty to bite into. The “fruit” was not the issue. The “temptation” was not the issue. The CHOICE was the issue, then, and it still is today.


I agree, it “must be” a huge “cross” to bear. God did NOT say, “take up just the light and ‘easy to carry’ crosses.” He said to take up your “cross” whatever it is, and follow Him. Even Paul had his constant “thorn in his side” to deal with that was so burdensome to him that he repeatedly asked God to “remove it from him.” I believe you know God’s answer to that and WHY God chose to leave the “thorn” in Paul’s side. To that command God has provided the means and the power and strength to DO what He has commanded. That provision is found in Philippians 4:13 and is a promise God makes to ALL Christians, and only to Christians, because God KNOWS through Christ the depth and weight of all the “crosses” we have to bear while we follow him.
First things first, if you go back and read what you quoted and then responded to, the issue was a Married wife having an affair with 3 men while married. That is “extramarital sex” and adultery. The “pre-marital sex” statement was a “typo” that should have been “extramarital sex.”

The “reasons” for why homosexuals do things is not the issue. But your statement, Of course it was wrong and betraying behavior to kiss another man, but I think in his case his homosexuality is the MAIN problem and not the betrayal itself, I would disagree with.

The MAIN problem is infidelity in marriage, no matter what sexual orientation or with what partner in adultery. No doubt homosexual feelings ARE a problem, but FIDELITY in marriage is the problem, especially for the lady who was posting her problem. Too many, in my very humble opinion, are quick to “defend” the feelings of homosexuality, perhaps even to suggest that she should be “accepting” of his homosexuality just so long as he doesn’t “actually cheat on her.” That’s like telling a heterosexual adulterer it’s “okay to have an emotional affair with someone else and not fully commit to ‘forsaking ALL others’ and keep yourself ONLY unto me.” It does not matter if someone might have a proclivity to “get involved,” emotionally or otherwise, with someone other that their husband or wife. Marriage REQUIRES exclusivity and totality for only the spouse. There is NO room in any marriage for anyone else except for God.

I don’t believe anyone is talking about “changing sexual orientation” whether or not it IS genetic, regardless of whether or not we are discussion heterosexual or homosexual “orientations.” What we are talking about is God’s perspective and God’s commands, whether or not we “like them.” God IS Sovereign, not us, and God gets to “make the rules.” That’s why most non-Christians are so against simple statements like “obey God.” It “puts” God in charge and not us individually.
But again, I think the premise of your argument is incorrect. We are NOT talking about changing “orientation.” We are talking about being obedient to God NO MATTER HOW WE ARE FEELING. We have FREE WILL that God gave us. We CAN choose how to react to “feelings” for a variety of reasons. A homosexual can CHOOSE not to “give into those feelings” and choose to live a married life “as a husband” or can choose to live a “celibate” life, not giving into feelings that would lead to sin. Heterosexuals have been doing that for millennia. They are “self-made” eunuchs, i.e., Roman Catholic Priests and Nuns. It’s NOT an issue of “CAN’T,” it’s most definitely and issue of “WON’T,” that is, a CHOICE.

Okay, I’m open for further discussion or for questions you’d like clarified or for questions about what I believe and why I believe it.
I hope that I have been caring, compassionate, sympathetic, open and honest in this response and NOT “enabling” or “excusing” sinful choices just to “get along.”

God bless.

Oky, I saw a lot on here to respond to. But i think I will just focus on a couple of things.

First, an Almost Recovered asked above concerning an athiest's compassion and love versus a Christian's compassion and love. AR, yes and atheist can have compassion and love. An atheist cannot have the compassion and love that comes from God through Jesus Christ. As a Christian, we believe that when a person is saved, Christ Himself comes to live inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit. I am no longer Mortarman...but Christ-in-Mortarman. That person is a new being, completely different from the old. I no longer HAVE to sin. I no longer have to be weak. I no longer have to be subject to this fallen world. Why? Because if I choose to let God handle my every action and thought, then I can never be wrong. Never. When a Christian sins, we do so because we ignored the direction of God who is inside us. Thus, once we have sinned, our only recourse is to admit our sin to Him, turn from that sin, and ask god for the power to overcome that sin. We do not have to ask for forgiveness or to be saved again. we were already forgiven for ALL of our sins (even the ones we are yet to commit) upon our salvation.

AR, for an athiest/Muslim/Hindu/etc, who doesnt know Jesus, it is hard for me or any Christian to get them to understand what this means. That is why although we preach the Gospel, we are not responsible for leading one erson to Christ. All we can do is be faithful and to speak the truth. To show compassion and love...but at the same time, tell that person the truth (in love) so that they might be reached by Jesus and will not perish.

An atheist or Muslim or Hindu or whomever does not have the ability to have the compassion or love that comes directly from God. I never had that ability, until Jesus Himself came to live inside of me. I now possess the power and wisdom of Jesus christ Himself, should I so decide to use it. A person who has not been saved by the sacrifice of Jesus on that Cross and turned their life over to Jesus, has not the power nor the ability to love like God loves. Only a person who has God Himself inside of them can love that way. And there is a HUGE difference between man's compassion and love...and God's compassion and love.

AR, this is a marriage building site. And yes, we do have discussions of faith. I have many atheist friends on here. And we get along just fine as we talk about marriage. We do not agree on my faith...that is okay. I still pray for them and will still stand up for the truth with them if the subject so warrants. You are welcoem here, AR. But understand if a Christian asks a question on here, then fellow Christians are obligated to give them a Scriptural answer and to debunk any other answers that are not in line with what God has shown us. We do not force this on unbelievers, as it does say in the Bible that it is really impossible for the unbeliever to fully understand anyway. but the Christian does understand...and thus, we must always tell our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ the truth. It is your choice to leave AR. My suggestion though is to stay, as other people who arent Christians do. And either maybe open up to the possibility of the truthes of Jesus Christ. Or, just stay away from discussions between Christians. I would no sooner get involved in a discussion between two Hindus, unless I was invited to present my views. So, you are welcome to stay and discuss marriage building. Or stay and join the discussion on Jesus. Or go. There is nothing to fear or be "scared" of.

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Now, to some other issues here. first off...I see a lot of Christians here talking about homosexuality, the inevitability of it, human nature, blah, blah, blah. Let's get right down to brass tacks here...Christians, how big is your God? Is He only big enough to create the Universe, but too small to handle freeing a homosexual from the bonds that hold him/her? Is He big enough to save you from your sins on that Cross, but He has little power to save that homosexual from his/her sexual "urges?" Come on now, brothers and sisters...think here. Pray a little. Look to Scripture. HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?

Every sin to God is the same! Every one. So, the murderer is the same as the adulterer, who is the same as the homosexual, who is the same as the pedofile, who is the same as the thief, who is the same as the person who uses the Lord's name in vain. You getting the point here? Why is it that the Lord can free a person from his adultery, but cannot free him from his homosexuality? Why does that person have to continue to have homosexual urges? Why? I ask this because my God is bigger than all of those sins. He is bigger than any urge.

You know, pedofiles have been studied. They have urges which we all condemn (that is unless you are a pedofile). What is the difference (we are talking about with God now) between a pedofile's urges with wanting to have sex with a child, and a man's having the urge to want to be with another man? Is there a difference? Of course not...not to God.

So, do we treat homosexuals like we treat pedofiles? No. Why not? Somebody help me here...why dont we treat all sins the same, since God treats all sins the same? I will leave this question open for a little while and see if someone comes up with the answer.

As Christians, we understand there are differences in the world in how the world handles sin. Some sins arent even called sins in the world. Others are treated differently.

We are to help those that are afflicted by sin, that cant overcome. Because we too have had our own Cross to bear. And we know that a homosexual has the same penalty as I do for the sins that I committed. And that penalty is death and forever removal from the grace and presence of God. When I see a murderer, or a thief, or a homosexual, or any sinner...I say to myself "there, but for the grace of God, go I." I dont condemn. That isnt my job. As ForeverHers was trying to explain above, I have love and compassion even for the most ruthless killer or rapist. But that does NOT mean that I do not speak the truth. That does NOT mean that I enable or acquiesce to the sin. I call the green grass "green," no matter if the world wants to call it red. And just because I speak the truth, that does not mean that I am not compassionate or loving. If someone was about to drive down a road that I knew the bridge had collapsed on, would it be compassionate of me to forgo yelling at them to stop? Would I be loving by just saying "who is it for me to judge what they do?...It is their life and their decision." Or would the loving thing for me to do is for me to tell them what I saw and what I know...in whatever way I need to tell them...in order for them to hopefully listen?

The last thing I wanted to address was the idea that Christians are not supposed to judge. I have had this discussion on here several times, and I should have saved the posts because it would save me time typing right now. But in short...Christians ARE to judge! People misquote the Bible, take one line of Scripture out and think that is what it means. I wont go into the actual Scriptures unless someone wants to go deeper into this...but I will say that the Bible is VERY clear on the fact that Christians are to judge. And since they have the wisdom of God through the Holy Spirit...if they are listening to God...then they are the very BEST judges!

In His arms.

ForeverHers,

That was a perfect explanation.

In His arms.