Okay Suzet, let me "extend your logic" to "another sin" that most people don't like to talk about....a "woman's right to choose abortion."

Under what circumstances does God say it is "okay" to kill an innocent child?

Where does one "draw the line" or "accomodate" sin because of the "if's, but's, and maybe's?"

What often seems to make "human sense" does not always "jibe" with "God's sense." In the case of MOST abortion, it's for selfish convenience. In the case of most homosexual feelings, it for the same reason.

Now we can wrestle with the relatively few "legitmate" areas of discussion, but in ALL cases, it is God's "opinion" that takes precedence over "human opinion" whether we like or not. But humans have a tendency, inherited from Adam and Eve, to place "human reason" above God's commands anytime God's commands seem to be telling us "no."

Wisdom and discernment, combined with loving concern, for what GOD has to say about any given "moral issue," is the "best way" to address those "relatively few" diffucult issues.



Aren't you arguing, in essence, for the "camel's nose" sort of thing? You want to "limit" strong sexual desire to just a "gentle, kiss your sister" sort of buss? You place a pretty expectation upon one's ability to "resist" temptation placed before them on a plate, every day, including "getting inside someones personal comfort zone." Have you never "responded" to your husband when at first his "innocent advances" might not have seemed like "that much?" Likewise he might have interpreted a "little gesture" by you as a "sign" that you "wanted more."

"Play with fire" long enough, and one is certain to get burned. "I understand what you are saying, but please note I've said that such a couple should exclude ALL sexual contact from their relationship (not just the sexual intercourse). "

It would seem the prudent thing to do would be to acknowledge that "ALL" means "ALL" and not try to put "relative weight" on a given sexual activity.

God bless.

ForeverHers, what you've said in both your posts above make perfect sense and explain things very well. Your posts was very insightful and helped to put certain things in perspective for me. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I can see now that I've indeed argue for "political correctness" instead of "Creator correctness" although it wasn't my intention. I'm not a black and white person and I struggle to view & see things as such. I do belief there are many "grey" areas in life - and I don't think I WANT to view things as black and white. But on this point of the discussion, I can see and agree that there can be no "middle-way" with certain things in life.

God bless,
Suzet

lost translation - It is obvious that you don't consider homosexuality to be immoral and it is equally obvious that you choose to apply "selective" interpretation to what is CLEARLY revealed in the Scripture. It does not matter that God has NOT revealed "everything about everything" in the Scripture, that is His prerogative. What IS important to us is what God HAS revealed and what God's commands and "opinions" ARE.

You are practicing exegetical nonsense with the above sort of quotation, embracing the self-serving opinion of an admitted homosexual OVER the truth of God's revealed Word.

Let's look at that quotation in the light of what is TRUTH, not selfish man's opinion, if you are up to an honest and open examination of the text of Scripture and not just looking to "pick a fight."

"Any interpretation of scripture that hurts people, oppresses people, or destroys people cannot be the right interpretation, no matter how traditional, historical, or exegetically respectable.

Extending the "logic" of this statement, "No man comes to the Father but by me" (a rather clear, definitive, and inclusive of ALL people), is NOT to be taken literally even though God Himself (Jesus the Son) said it. Wouldn't you say that Jesus is being rather "offensive" to the masses? There is ONLY one way to salvation, and that way is through the NARROW gate that God Himself has established, and whether we "like" or "dislike" what God has established, GOD gets to set the "rules," not us. THAT is sure to be "offensive" to a lot of humans who want to be "sovereign" themselves. Just remember, God doesn't "Destroy" anyone. We are already "destroyed." God provides a "way out" of that destruction but it requires surrendering "self" to God, something our "pride" finds very difficult to do.

[color:"red"]"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."[/color]
He said to the crowd: [color:"red"]"When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and sky,. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"[/color] (Luke12:49-57 NIV emphasis added)

lost translation, if you really want to examine the Scriptural text, we can do so. But we have to agree that the Scripture is authoritative, not merely a "collection" of nice stories. Paul was quite clear that ALL Scripture was given by inspiration of God so that HIS message would be clearly and consistantly given to us. If you wish to elevate human opinion, even when it stands in oppostion to Scriptural revelation, ABOVE God, then there is little basis for discussion and only room for "opposing viewpoints" of human reason or prejudice.

"If the church wishes to continue with its traditional interpretation it must demonstrate, not just claim, that it is more loving to condemn homosexuality than to affirm homosexeuals.

[color:"red"]"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."[/color] (Rev 3:19 NIV)
God condemns ALL sin, including homosexuality. God convicts us of sin AND lovingly provides the expiation of that sin in HIS way. It is offered in love, it is up to to us to accept or reject the offer.

[color:"red"]"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son (or his only begotten Son), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world though him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemened already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but the men loved darkeness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[/color] (John 3:16-21 NIV emphasis added)

God has already demonstated his love for us in Christ Jesus. "Truly, truly, I say unto you. NO ONE comes to the Father but by me." "There is but ONE NAME under heaven by which we are saved" and that name is Jesus, no matter how "offensive" that is to the "unsaved."

..... And there is the example of Jesus himself, who, when asked which were the most important of all the laws in the Levitical puritay code, responded by quoting these two: you shall love God with all your heart and mind and soul and strenght, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All other laws and the writings of the prophets were to be understood througth the lens of these two, he taught."

Yes, that IS the example given to us by God the Son Himself. Love God and His Word more than anything (including human "political correctness"), and love your neighbors as God loves them....not by tolerating or excusing sin, but by delivering God's truth to them so that "they can either choose God" or "be without excuse."

Lastly lost translation, I would strongly encourage you to read Jesus' comments to the various Churches in the book of Revelation. They are sobering and clear and the opinion and warning of Him who counts above all else....Jesus.

They stand as testimony to all churches who profess belief in Jesus Christ to "examine thyself."

God bless.

No argument here FH!

In His Arms.

No, I have not studied to be a counselor or minister. I am involved with starting a new church in Northern Virginia, though. A good friend of mine went to Calvary Chapel's ministry school, and I am now helping him start a Calvary Chapel.

I also thank God for what He has allowed me to do. Believe me, much of what I write here surprises even me. I go back later on and say "Did I write that?" It has really helped me to stay close to Him, and I try to stay where I sign off each of these posts..."In His arms."

I do live in Northern Virginia and if you all ever pass through, then let me know. I am not scheduled to head to Georgia anytime soon, but if I do, I will look you all up. It would be great to sit down and meet and eat.

I have watched both of you help many on here. We are all just trying to obey Christ. But it is fun helping Him out, isnt it? Knowing that you are a part of something bigger, and that the God of this Universe allows me and you to be a part of His plan? Many times, I am awestruck...and sometimes feel unworthy. But I know Christ and God do not look at me that way. So, you guys keep up the good fight!

In His arms.

I have struggled with myself as to whether or not I should entangle myself in this debate. I am a Christian. I was reared in a Christian home, I attended a private Christian School all of my school years and I was a Sunday School teacher for 15 years. I think I have read the Bible quite a few times over the years and memorized numerous verses.

Many of you may not like what I have to say here...but I will say them anyway...

I read the Bible and believe its teachings. But....I also realize that the Bible was NOT written in God's handwriting. The scriptures over the years have been manipulated by man to control other men. I do not believe any of us are reading the original scripture in it's original form. How naive of us to accept that man would translate God's word exactly as it was originally written. Case in point...in the dark ages....priests would sell pardons for sins that had not even yet been commited. All in the name of God. Just because you do something in the name of God...does not mean that God approves of it.

The Bible gives us all as Christians a guideline as to how we should live our lives. I believe that God allowed this as part of our free will. He gave us the choice/responsibility to read the word and choose to live it as we understand it. If this is not the case, then why are there so many religions that believe differently but all claim to be Christians? I am a Methodist by choice, but I am not prepared to condemn all other religions to an eternity of flames because they do not agree with every aspect of my own belief. I believe that God will judge us according to our own standards. We call ourselves Christians...on judgement day, I believe God will ask...Did you live your life according to what you professed to believe?

Now...about homosexuality....I believe it is a sin. That is my choice to believe so...but it is not a sin that is any different than any other. The only unforgiveable sin is to not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior.

As a Christian, it is my responsibility to teach the word of God to those who may not know him. It is not my responsibility to remain after I have given testimony and see that the person is living as I think they should.
"Jugdement is mine, sayeth the Lord." If we choose to judge man...if we choose to take God's job....then we will be judged according to our own standards of judgement.

I will not attack anyone's oppinions here...but I have been quite incensed with some of them....but it is not my place to tell you that you are right or wrong...that is for God to decide....since I am not God I will choose to remain silent because I think it is a matter for Him.

I am a sinner. I am not homosexual. I have not killed anyone. But I am a sinner. My sins are no less great than any other sin. ALL sin is wrong in the eyes of God.

I cannot say for sure if homosexuality is a born straight, a choice, or a learned trait....I am not homosexual...I am not God....I cannot claim to know the heart and minds of man. I do however have homosexual friends. I do not agree with their lifestyle and they know this and respect my oppionions. As a Christian, I do not cast them aside. It is not my right to judge them. If I were to cast them aside, that would be my sin.....For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God....I love the sinner and hate the sin.

What if God had cast Saul aside for his sins against Christians? He didn't. He was there and Saul changed...he became Paul and gave us such wonderful, meaningful scripture.

I will not cast the first stone....I will not condemn someone for their way of life....God has given each of us the free will to accept him and believe in him. I live in a glass house....as do all sinners....we should not be throwing stones.

My husband is having an affair. I hate it with all of my being....I want it to end....I pray every night that it will....but it hasn't yet. The affair has hurt me enormously. My husband for doing it and the OW for doing it as well...ignoring my pleas to stop....but as much as I hate the pain and the hurt it has caused me...it has also made me stronger.

My husband has not asked my forgiveness nor has the other woman....I have forgiven them anyway....in my heart....I have forgiven....I still want it to end....and I am still dealing with my demons telling me that I should leave my husband because no end seems to be in sight...but I keep fighting....holding on....praying.....that God will lead me on the right course. I pray at night for myself, for my husband and for the OW....I am not God....they do not have to ask me to forgive....I have to ask God to forgive me...for the feelings of hatred that I have had in the past...and sometimes still do....I am not perfect and God does not expect me to be....but I do know this...in order for me to forgive myself and let go of my own sins I have to forgive as well....Jesus said....forgive my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me....

This has been a long post...but so much has really bothered me in this thread....

I guess the short of it is this....God is my master....he is the judge...he has given me commandments to live by....I tell others of him....I make my choices as do others...it is not my responsibility to make those people accept God...Jesus did not bully people into accepting him...he told of God's love and forgiveness....and he told us the wages of sin is death....of sin...not one in particular...of all sin.

FH,
Thanks for your reply. I believe the issue is whether or not an individual choosing to join a church accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior in their heart. They should confess their sins and actively seek to live a life according to God's Word. I believe I must have misinterpreted your posts to say that homosexuality in and of itself would preclude one from membership in a group of believers. My opinion is that homosexuality is a sin and to God, all sins are the same (see Mortarman's discussion of this point - his explanation is far more eloqent than mine could ever be). As such, if in his or her heart the homosexual renounces their life of sin, confesses to God, accepts Jesus as their Savior and then turns away from sin, they are saved and should be a welcome member in my congregation or any congregation.

As to this:


denying Jesus is the Son of God and not accepting Him as your Savior is the ONLY unpardonable sin.

Forevermore - you are quite welcome to say whatever you wish to say. I hope you will avail yourself of the opportunity to continue posting and discussing.

I understand your pain over your husband's affair, and I think I understand what you mean by your having "forgiven them" even though have not sought your forgiveness. Forgiveness, in the biblical sense, requires confession and repentance and, between fellow believers, is given IN RESPONSE to one who has sinned against you and repented (by Jesus' command to Peter).

There are many on MB who would willingly join with you in prayer for your marriage and for the end to your husband's affair, if you would like us to. But know that we will be praying for God's will in that matter anyway, because we are now aware of a need in the life of fellow believer.



Correct, it was written in the handwriting and style of the men God INSPIRED to write what He wanted communicated to us.


Also true. Men have many times attempted to twist, or even to rewrite, Scripture to support their own desires. That's an "indictment" of the men, not the Word of God.



We are not. To my knowledge NONE of the original texts are extant today and few of us are reading the Scriptures in their original languages either.


That the copying of the original texts and the care with which translations have been made is beyond question to anyone willing to actually examine the texts we have today with the historical texts that are available to us. If you are interested in looking at this for yourself, may I suggest a book called, Evidence That Demands A Verdict, by Josh McDowell, for a more extensive look at the historicity of the Bible text.


Amen!



Absolutely.



hmmm...many reasons, but one of the fundamental ones is pride. Another is choosing "human reason" over "God's clear revelation," and wanting to "err on the side of 'humanness' instead of 'godliness'."


Neither do I. But God also clearly tell us to "beware anyone preaching "any other gospel but the one He delivered."



That is true. We have God's creation, we have God's provision of Jesus Christ, and we are "without excuse."



No, I humbly disagree. God will ask us if we have received Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not if we have somehow "earned" or "merited" salvation through any of our "good works." Our "works" done out of love for God and what Christ did for us SHOULD motivate us to try to live a more godly life, and we will receive, or not receive, some rewards from God based upon how we did "live in accordance with our profession of faith," but that is not the same thing as God asking us, on Judgment Day, WHY we should be allowed into eternity with Him.



Two points. First, God CHOSE Saul/Paul. God "elected" him the same as He elects all believers. Second, if "free will" can withstand the "elective call" of God, then Saul could have just as easily said something like, "Thanks, but no thanks. I am a top Pharisse and much better than just about everyone else. I am secure in doing things 'my way' and don't need you to tell me to something differently. I LIKE who I am and you would be asking me to change, to 'give up,' who I am!"


This is very true and couldn't have been said better.



Yep. Again very true and right on the money.



No one is asking, or advocating, that you "condemn" anyone or "attack" them. I would submit, however, that is your responsibility to "stand for God" whenever possible, and that includes discussion "differing" or "erroneous" interpretations of the Scripture. Remember, the "authority" for Christians SHOULD BE the Scripture, not personal opinion that might be contrary to the revealed Word of God.



This is good. Don't be afraid or reticent to bring up anything that might be bothering you. God is NOT afraid of our questions and it often THROUGH our questions that God is able to illuminate our understanding and bring answer to our questions. That's partly with the process of Sanctification is all about.


This is very true. And Jesus also called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." We are not talking about "bullying" anyone, nor are we going to allow anyone to "bully" us. We STAND for God and His Word. It IS up to each individual to respond to God or to reject God. ONLY God Himself draws His elect to Christ. OUR "job" is to give witness and testimony for, and about, Jesus Christ and what God has revealed to us in His Word, not to "make anyone accept God."

God also told His disciples to "shake the dust off your shoes" when met with those who choose to reject. "They have Moses and the Prophets....."

God bless and keep posting.

Eaglesoar, I'm in complete agreement with your statement.

The "operative phrase" from Scripture ends with this truth: "...and such WERE some of you."


God bless.

Forever,

I am going to take this on. As I do, please do not take this as a personal attack on you. And at the same time, please do not think I am trying to ascertain whether or not you are saved. As always, our relationship with Christ is personal. So, with that said, let me get started.


I hope that you remember that all of those things do not make you a Christian, just as sleeping in a garage makes me a Ford. I dont think that is what you were saying, but just wanted to make sure. And I see that you have done a lot of studying on Scripture, so let's dig in to what you are saying.


Then why do you believe its teachings? If man wrote it and every word is not the inspired word of God, then why believe any of it? Because if you can decide what part is God's handwriting and what part is man's insertion, then why cant the next guy decide that different parts are of God? do you see what I mean. if the whole thing is not the truth, then the whole thing is a lie. Because neither you nor I nor anyone else would be able to ascertain what is truly from God.


Have you done any studying on hpw the Scriptures were written? First off, do you believe the Old Testament is true? Jesus did. All historical documents about Him testify to that. So, if jesus believed the Old Testament was from His Father, then that would mean that the only argument you might have is with the New Testament. That is, if you are a follower of Christ, which you have said you are.

There have been studies, findings, etc. over the many years, in order to prove parts of the Bible as wrong. Why? Because these people knew that to prove one part wrong would make the whole thing fall apart. Do you know something? No one at anytime has proven even one part of the Bible to be untrue. Not one part. Pretty remarkable considering a bunch of men wrote it.


You know, we have found parts of these books in caves and such. Guess what they found out? That the Bible I hold in my hand today is remarkably the same as the books written 2000 years ago. Sure, there might be a few differences in syntax. But the Bible I have today tells the same story God intended to tell in the beginning.


And just because some evil priests were doing this, does not mean that the Bible is not God-inspired.


We do not have the freewill to decide what we want to believe in the Bible and what we want to change. What about the "Christians" that believe that Jesus didnt literally rise from the dead? That is their "interpretation" from the Bible. By your reasoning, they would be just as correct as me saying that Jesus did rise on the third day. Forever, you cannot have it both ways. if we can interpret the Bible any way we want, then it really means nothing. We have that problem in America today. We seem to believe that our Constitution is a "living" document. What baloney. The Founders never believed that. What fool believes that a constitution that is living has any meaning? You see, if we can make up its meaning on a moments notice, then the document really has no meaning at all. And so goes it for the Bible.


That is most definitely NOT Christian...and I know the Methodist church does not preach that. I used to be a Baptist. Is that a different religion than a Methodist? No. Why? Because we are both Christians. What is a Christian? Is a Christian not a person who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior and has asked Him into their life and committed their life to be a bond servant of Christ? If so, then a Baptist, a Methodist, a Catholic...all are Christians if they have met that criteria. Now there are "Bapatists" or "Methodists" that most assuredly are not Christians.

Christ will not ask if we lived by what we professed to believe. If a Muslim believes something, Christ is not going to affirm that. Christ says that if you do not live by the word of His Father, then when you get to Heaven, He will say "I never knew you." He said the way to Heaven is a very narrow path. Not of our design, but of God's. Forever, your statement that it is our interpretation that God will judge us by is not only non-Biblical, it is not Christian.


Why? Remember, you said it is based o nthe individual's interpretation. Some might say that God never said that stuff...that it was just man trying to oppress the homosexual. Just using your logic here, Forever.


While true, I still ask...how do you KNOW that is the only unforgivable sin? Why do you say that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Is that your interpretation? If so, then what if I interpret that to mean that it is okay to believe that, but that isnt the only way to Heaven. Why not? Remember, you said that God will judge us on our interpretation and how we live up to that. Which by the way means, that Jesus dying on the Cross was totally unneeded. A waste of time. Because if we can get to heaven any other way than thru Him, then He died needlessly. Shoot, if I am going to be judged on my perception and how I live up to it, then wouldnt I set the bar VERY low!


You just said it isnt the word of God, but a bunch of guys making things up or changing the word of God. So how do YOU know that you are teachign the word of God, as opposed to your opinion or some monk's opinion a thousand years ago?


True.


True. I have no problem with Christians judging. They shouldnt condemn, but they should judge. I have no problem with being held to the standards that I set for others. No Christian should have a problem with that!


What if God is telling you to speak, to stand up for Him? Some of us know that God is speaking through us. If He is trying to speak through you, why would you remain silent?


True.

[/quote]I cannot say for sure if homosexuality is a born straight, a choice, or a learned trait....I am not homosexual...I am not God....I cannot claim to know the heart and minds of man. I do however have homosexual friends. I do not agree with their lifestyle and they know this and respect my oppionions. As a Christian, I do not cast them aside. It is not my right to judge them.[/quote]

Yes it is. As a Christian, it is your right and your responsibility to judge. The word you are looking for is condemn. We have no right to condemn.


Okay. So should all Christians. I love the homosexual also, but hate the sin. And it is my responsibility to not only come alongside them and help, but also to point out where they are wrong. There is right and wrong, Forever. And if I know that a person is headed to their demise, it would be criminal for me to stand by and not say anything.


What is your point? No one is casting aside anyone, unless it is a Christian that is in rebellion and must be put out into the realm of Satan in order to be won. No one here was casting anyone out. Telling the truth is not casting someone out.


And no one here has thrown stones.


Absolutely!!


All true. And you are much better off by forgiving. I know how hard that is, too. It took me awhile to be able to forgive. But I am glad I have. Good point here, Forevermore.


I am not sure what it is that is really bothering you. If it is what the Bible says, then your problem isnt with this thread. If it is the people bringing Scripture in to help people understand the word of God, then again, your problem isnt with this thread.


Again, by your testimony above, how do you know these are Hid commandments?


As we have done here.


True.

Look Forevermore, I would suggest you get into a study on the veracity of the Bible. Lee Stroebel has a great series of books concerning all of this. Start with "A Case for Faith."

The Bible is the inspired word of God. If God is powerful enough to make the Universe, and also be involved in each of our lives, wouldnt He also be powerful enough to make sure these men wrote down exactly what He wanted them to write? Wouldnt He be powerful enough to make sure His word continued down thru the ages? Of course He would. Just because man has freewill does not mean God gave up his freewill.

God acts through Christians. That is the way He reaches the lost. If you have professed Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are called you spread the Good News, to judge rightly, and to give an accounting for your faith. Your faith isnt based on perceptions. It is based on facts, on truthes. Do not be embarassed or shirk from that, no matter wha tthe world tells you.

In His arms.

Brief threadjack -



Isn't it so incredibly hard to add the "God's Will" part in your prayer a lot of times. I have been praying for my husband to be cured from his colon cancer, but I don't think my "God's Will" part has really been sincere. I do pray for peace and comfort if healing is not his will, but that next sentence about his will being done really falls short.

He is having to be re-tested next week (a bad thing-at least scary), and I keep feeling it is because my faith is lacking or my prayers have not been sincere and "correct". My "Your will be done" is really lacking.

Back to the regularly scheduled program, but there is a lot of Christianity that IS JUST NOT EASY.

Mortarman...

My question to you in an earlier post was a serious one...my husband and I talked about it again last night...Are you studying to be a Christian Counselor or a Minister? If not, do you at least teach Sunday School? We so think that you would be great at any of those things...

Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to make all of your posts here...you'll never know just how much they teach us. Your ability to break things down to the simplest and most logical form is divinely inspired...I know that you know that...

I read an interesting "what if" about Heaven once...I'd like to share it with you...Wouldn't it be neat if when we got to Heaven we were given the opportunity to meet everyone that our given testimony had influenced to come to know Christ? The chance to see just how deep your Christian legacy ran...It would be set up as a receiving line of sorts...I think that that would be truly amazing, though it could present a dilemma for you...I'm just not sure that you would ever get to sit down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If that does come to pass, luckily your heavenly legs could take it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering and I will keep you in our prayers...we feel blessed to "know" you...

Sincerely,

Mrs. Wondering

No it is not. But remember, the One we follow didnt have it easy either. Should we expect less?

Good point.

In His arms.

becontent~

I'm glad you posted this...I just got off my knees in prayer for you and your family...I know that others here will do the same...Keep your focus on God, He knows what you need and understands your fears...Maybe it would help you to view it this way...Have the same kind of faith in Him that your children had in you when they were small...total blind faith...we, as mortal parents sometimes fall short of all that goes with having someone have that kind of faith in us, but God NEVER will...no matter what happens, He will NEVER fail you...I wish you the peace that passes understanding...

Blessings,

Mrs. Wondering

I have taught Sunday school...adult Sunday school. I also am starting up a marriage ministry at this church I am helping to start. Early in our marriage, my wife said that I would probably make a good college professor. I have realized that one of the gifts that God has given me is the ability to teach, and to break things down into their logical parts so they are better to digest. It has helped me in so many parts of my life.


Again I say thanks...and a big thanks to God, as he gets all of the glory!


You know, that would be great for everyone! Have you ever heard about the story of Billy Graham? I dont remember the exact story, so someone on here may be able to come in and help out. But I think it had to do with a preacher who went evangelizing. And i nthe process of doing that, he had been seen and heard by Billy Graham. Now we all know the fruits of Billy Graham's ministry! But, we dont know this guy's name. And that guy is as responsible for what Billy has been able to accomplish in the Lords name as Billy himself.

I had a friend of mine tell me one day that she figured out what the rewards that we are allowed to take to Heaven with us. Do you know what they are? They are the relationships that we have made with our fellow believers. I mean, think about it. If we spend our whole life making, and building, and accumulating stuff, and then have to leave it all behind when we die...then what is the point of life? Why stick around? Why not go straight to Heaven upon your conversion?

Well, we know that first off, we need to stay until we have finished the mission God has for us. But the second reason is that it is here that we build these incredible relationships that will last through eternity.

That is why I say it would be great for us to get together sometime. But even if we dont, we will someday, wont we? It might not be at a local restaurant, but instead at one of our mansions in Heaven. So, even if you and Mr. Wondering never meet me in this life, it is just a matter of time before we meet there.

That life is what I long for. It is like a military guy on deployment. While yo uare gone, you set up your area in the barracks or tent or whatever and call it "home." But you knwo that really isnt "home." Home for me was back in Virginia, where my wife and kids are. I knew someday, I was going to go home and this temporary home would be a memory.

Same thing goes here. This life is just our temporary home. We are on deployment. Someday, the Lord will send us home...for good. The "war" for us will be over and we can rest. And I imagine as we arrive, angels will be having a party for us.

I cannot wait!


Me also with you.

In His arms.

Thank you so much for the prayers. I really do think they can and do make a difference. My children didn't know any better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Sometimes, I really don't think my faith is the problem, because I really, really do believe he could heal him 100%, I just don't know if that is God's Will or not. Of course, we have never known what God's will is (the future) but I just never experienced it this personally. That and selfishness (I want him here) and lack of understanding or comprehending the glory of what is in store for those that pursue it.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the kind words.

Back to you Suzet*:

I want to say that I am really impressed (not that it matters one IOTA) at the civility and maturity you have shown in this thread. When you posted to FH this morning my reaction was a simple WOW!

(((((BeContent)))))

No, it's not always easy, but then we "warned" about that.

I keep feeling it is because my faith is lacking or my prayers have not been sincere and "correct". My "Your will be done" is really lacking.

You have to understand, as do I when I get to feeling this "normal" sort way, that God knows your HEART. He does not require you to speak eloquently, or with "great sounding words," He expects you speak to Him as your Father. He loves you and He loves your husband and He loves your children. "God is with you" is much more than just a "nice phrase." God, the Holy Spirit, indwells (lives with 24/7) you, your husband, and all believers. When we don't know what to say, or how to say it, the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us with "groans" known and understood by God. The Holy Spirit is that "other Comforter" that Christ left with us, there to comfort us in our times of distress and pain and suffering, BECAUSE the God we love is no stranger to our real pain and suffering and even our "losses."

"Jesus wept." Two words that about "say it all" about God's personal love and feeling for all of His children.

"God's will" is always somewhat scary when we surrender control of the "here and now" to God. We ARE alive now, we feel NOW, we love our spouse and children NOW....yet we also, as Christians, know that all of this, for however long God grants to us in "His will," is temporary and short lived. We look toward the future with God in eternity and THAT is the hope we hold onto. Bad things, like your husband's cancer, do happen to good people in this fallen world. God has the power to raise the dead, so He has the ability to heal anyone of anything. But if not, we know that the Comforter will never leave us and that death is not "the end."

I pray that God, in His great grace and mercy, would heal your husband and use the two of you as great witnesses for Him to those He would have you touch. May you both feel His presence and confidently place your lives and futures into the Father's omniscient hands, trusting Him both in weakness and in strength.

God bless.

FH, that was perfect!

One thing I would like to add. When I pray, I have now learned what FH is talking about. While God is the God of this Universe and deserves my reverence, He is also my Father. As such, I now pray with this mental image that I am sitting in Father's lap. No big words. No great literary speech. Just me and my Father talking.

FH is right, He knows your heart. He just wants you to spend time with Him. That is the sole reason why you were created. Do you know that? You were created to love and be loved by God. To sit in His lap and talk, or let Him hold you in times of trials, or listen to you greatest achievements.

For God, nothing we do is of great significance. He is all powerful and could do these things much better than us. but it is like when my older son was 2. He would run into the room, hop up on my lap, and show me a picture or something else he created. Now of course, on the paper, there was nothing but scribble. And while he was excited about what he had created, I was excited because he was excited and was sharing that with me.

God is no different. He wants you to talk to Him, to rely on Him, to lean on Him. He wants a relationship.

In His arms

Thanks becontent – I appreciate your kind words! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I really try to have an open mind about this subject and take all the opinions into account. I know what God says about homosexuality and I do take what He says in His Word very seriously, but at the same time I try to have insight and understanding into the problems and struggles of gay orientated people who want to do the right things and live God-feared life's. It can’t be easy for them... A big part of the society have a lack of insight into their struggles; are unsympathetic towards them and tend to condemn these people just for the fact that they are gay orientated. It's a shame... And because of this, many of these people are lonely and live in isolation…while they didn’t choose to be this way… And I’m concerned about his.

Now, some people would say that many other people, like nuns & monks also live in isolation but the difference here is that the nuns, monks etc. CHOOSE to live this way (or was called by God to do so). The gay orientated didn’t CHOOSE this and herein lays the difference and difficulty... If I can use an example: Me and my H can’t conceive naturally because of severe infertility problems. Now, some people have said to us that there are many people who’ve decided not to have children and that they are doing fine without kids…that we have to accept that probably we will never have biological kids of our own. But the people who are saying this to us forget that people who don’t have children because of a DECISION to do so, can’t be compared to us…simply because neither me nor my H CHOOSE the infertility… And sometimes I also struggle with the will of God in this regard and our inability to have children of our own...where I can see qualities of BOTH me and my H unified in a biological child...

As I view it, infertility it is totally against nature and the creation and how God intended it to be. God also created people to reproduce and “fill the earth”. So I view the inability to reproduce as in direct conflict with this and the same goes for gay orientated people. It’s unnatural and in direct conflict with the creation and how God intended it to be... Yet most of these people didn’t choose to be this way but have to live an unnatural life (of celibacy and isolation) because of their “condition”. As I’ve said yesterday: celibacy itself is an exceptional spiritual calling: In principal a distinctive supernatural existence and way of living and if the homosexual who live in celibacy are not even allowed to have a loving & nurturing with anyone (because they may get tempted) it must be exceptionally hard & difficult for them.

The other day Mortarman used an example of how he will have to live a celibate life if his W should ever become paralyzed and although I understand his point, his example can STILL not be compared to that of a homosexual simply because in Mortarman’s case, he would live in celibacy but STILL have his W by his side and he would STILL have someone he can have a loving, nurturing, intimate and exclusive relationship with... Even the adulterer, rapist, pedophile, etc. who overcome their sins and surrender to God, can have a loving, supportive, nurturing and intimate relationship with one special and long-life person should they decide to do so… But the homosexual can’t have this, simply because an exclusive relationship with a life-long partner and same-sex person can tempt them. But because of his/her orientation they can’t have a loving, nurturing, intimate and exclusive relationship with a opposite sex person either… Isn’t this sad? From the homosexual it's expected to live in celibacy (understandably so) AND to go without a nurturing & caring relationship with someone special. Must be hard...

Becontent, ForeverHers, Mortarman (and others who might read here), as you can see I’m very concerned for the gay orientated people and I think in many ways, they find themselves in a catch-22 situation. I ask myself what about the homosexual who are willing to live a celibate life and have overcome their sexual urges, but still long for a loving, nurturing and supporting relationship with someone in their life’s? Are these people really expected to live alone and in isolation for their whole life’s? I mean, the desire to belong and share your life with somebody is God given and natural… God didn’t create man to be alone. Can any of us who are "straight" really imagine how hard, difficult and lonely it must be for them? I don't think so...

I didn’t start this thread to have an insensitive debate about such a complex issue, but really because I have a deep empathy and compassion for the gay orientated believers and their struggles in life. And sometimes I don’t understand why God would allow some people to be born this way. I also ask myself sometimes why God allow women to be raped, children to be molested etc. But I guess there are many things I won’t find answers on here on earth… I guess one day in the after death life I will come to understand all these things... And if this thread can help just ONE person to become compassionate and emphatic towards gay orientated people and correct wrong views and assumptions about them, I will be satisfied…

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, you are a very loving and compassionate person. And you feel a "burden" for others, that is both obvious and good. All I would caution you about concerning these feelings is to keep "empathy" for another and "identification" with another separate so that you don't personally become entangled and susceptable to "human reason" that seeks to supplant God's clear teaching.

There are two primary areas of "concern" that I would have for you and your concern for the "plight" of homosexuals. First, you have to "separate" them into the same two groups that we have to separate all humans into....saved and unsaved.

Our primary (as Christians) concern should be for their soul and not the "fairness" or "unfairness" of their situation. As you said, we must also be compassionate toward nonbelievers in the hope that they will find Christ. We CAN "come alongside" of homosexual unbelievers the same as in any "Good Samaritan" situation where we "help according to our ability," but we don't bring that person into our lives to live with us, physically or mentally.

You ARE asking the age old question about "why does God allowing suffering and evil in the world?" That's another topic, but it is intrinsically involved in your questioning concerning the "plight" of homosexuals. So rather than go into the "suffering and evil" issue right now, let's spend a little time on your specific questions related to the specific case of homosexuality, if that's okay with you.

I think in many ways, they find themselves in a catch-22 situation. I ask myself what about the homosexual who are willing to live a celibate life and have overcome their sexual urges, but still long for a loving, nurturing and supporting relationship with someone in their life’s? Are these people really expected to live alone and in isolation for their whole life’s?

You seem to be "identifying" more than "empathizing" here. The question you ask is valid, but the underlying premise of the question is where the problem lies. That underlying premise is that it is "unfair" of God to "allow" homosexuality to exist so the "innocent victims" of any sexual orientation or lusts have to struggle with sin and a sin nature.

Here's what I mean by "blaming God" for the "unfairness of the homosexual's potential 'situation'"; I mean, the desire to belong and share your life with somebody is God given and natural… God didn’t create man to be alone.

This is precisely WHY God created Eve for Adam. You are 100% correct about what is "God given and natural," that God DIDN'T create man to be alone. But Satan, through the introduction of sin in the world has taken a "truth" of God and "twisted it." "God didn't REALLY mean what He said"(Satan whispers in our ears) when He created ONE woman for ONE man as THE answer to what He gave mankind as "God given and natural." Just as Adam and Eve were created with a natural desire for "good and tasty food," they were told that they could have ANY food in the world EXCEPT for a certain fruit that had to remain "untouched." No doubt about it, that "fruit" was both very pleasing to the eye and, as they found out, tasted very good upon the initial eating. But it also carried with it a severe consequence, no matter how much God created mankind to desire food. That consequence was sin, disobedience of God's commands, no matter how we might "justify" the desire by excuses like "how God created man." God did NOT create man to sin, we chose that path and we now suffer the consequences of that original choice.

So that brings us back to your thoughts about this....

Can any of us who are "straight" really imagine how hard, difficult and lonely it must be for them? I don't think so...

No, none of us "straight" folks can imagine how hard or difficult or lonely it might be. But I don't have to BE a certain anything (homosexual, rapist, murderer, celibate monk, etc.) to UNDERSTAND from the experience of others who have "gone there, done that" the "hardness, difficulty, or loneliness" of "denying self" and following Christ.

Suzet, the "broader class" of homosexuals is no different than the "broader class" of humans in general, they are NOT saved and are in enmity with God. They are NOT likely to "deny self," pick up their "cross" and follow God. So for the vast majority that you are empathizing with, they have already chosen a "life of sin" rather than Christ, and you have "nothing in common with them," other than a desire to see all "come to Christ" (the same empathy and desire that God has for all mankind).

For those homosexuals who HAVE chosen Christ as their Lord and Savior, they become a "new creation" in Christ. They receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, and God is quite capable of giving them His strength to "overcome," (as in Paul's case of a "thorn in his side) and God is quite capable of even changing their "sexual orientation" to be in alignment with what God DID create man to be and to have in woman, and vice versa. The "change" begins for all of us, regardless of what "sins" we brought to the table when we accepted Christ, with surrendering our lives, our will, our wants, our desires, to God and HIS will. We place ourselves, no matter the current or future temptations and struggles, into God's hands to USE as HE sees fit, not as we think it "should be."

It is a "concept" that is rejected by all who are not Christians. The mere idea that "anyone" (God) has a "right to command us" and is Sovereign, instead of ourselves being "sovereign" in our own lives and choices, is refused and denied.

"Renew in me a right spirit, O Lord" is a prayer that we ALL say say to God. It put's God in control and "allows" Him to do with us as HE sees fit. It IS just like Jesus' human desire to live and not go through the agony of death on the Cross for us, for God did not create us to be "human sacrifices" for the sins of others. Yet Jesus put His human will and natural desire at the feet of the Father and "surrendered" his right to choose to God the Father's will...for our ultimate good, both here and in eternity to come.

When Jesus says, "If you love me, obey my commands" he is teaching many truths, but two of them are; 1)becoming more Christ-like BEGINS with obedience to God no matter how easy or how hard it may seem to be to be "obedient," and 2)He modeled that love through SURRENDER of His place in heaven with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and in surrendeing His human will (as Jesus of Nazareth, the fully human man) to the Father's will....completely and unconditionally, no matter what the personal feelings or the personal "cost" in the 'human seeming' "fairness or unfairness" of what HE was being asked to do simply because God the Father required it.

Suzet, I am out of time this morning to go into it more and Friday's are very difficult for me to be "on the system." So I hope that has helped a little. If you would like more discussion on this, please be patient with me as I will be unlikely to able to get on the system to post until much later.

God bless.