FH,

Thanks again so much for your thorough response. I do listen to what you’re saying to me and as usual, most of what you’ve said helped to put certain things in perspective for again. I learn so much from you - thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I can see the danger you’re talking about and what you've said is true… I know I have a tendency to “over-emphasize” or “over-identify” sometimes and although empathy & compassion are good qualities, I know it’s also important to keep a “balance” here. My whole life I wanted to become a counselor and psychologist, but probably my tendency to over-emphasize would cause me trouble and would lead me to become too emotionally involved with other’s troubles. By the way, it’s this same thing that have gotten me into trouble with my friendship with XOM in the first place.


FH, I will be off the system myself from this afternoon (I don’t read and post during weekends and it's already 13:00 pm in my country), so if there is something more I want to discuss, I will be back on Monday.

Have a nice day and weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

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Dalton Dad,

Your disrespectful and attacking behavior is SHOCKING.

Please stay of this thread.

Thanks,
Suzet

There are many in this life bearing burdens and living less that what you would consider desireable lives. I have a story to tell you that illustrates this much more profoundly (IMO).

This story is 20 to 30 years old. There was a young couple in this town been married a short while with no children. He had a car accident and was left with very little mental and physical abilities. He has spent these years in a nursing home. You know she really doesn't deserve to live a childless life married to this man nor did she CHOOSE to. Do you think she should divorce him? Personally, I really believe in the "for better for worse" clause in the vows and I find no Biblical basis for a divorce.

By the way, she divorced him, remarried, and had children.

I am so sorry for the infertility as I understand it. It took me 5 years and fertility drugs to be blessed with my 2 boys.(((((Suzet*)))))

Thank everyone for their kind words. There are a couple of posts that I have printed off because of the comfort they gave me in my daily struggles of late.

Thanks,

Becontent, I understand what you’ve tried to illustrate with the story. The difference is that the woman in the story probably received a lot of sympathy, support, understanding etc. from the people around her in her life… And usually homosexuals don’t get this same type of sympathy, support and understanding in general from people, the society and churches. In stead, they receive a lot of condemnation etc. But I do understand what you're saying.

No, personally I don’t think the woman should have divorced her H. But I also wouldn’t condemn and judge her for doing so. It was her choice. I think if something like that would happen to my dear H, I would stay by him and I don’t think I would ever found it in my heart to leave him. I also believe in the marriage vows and I would pray for God’s strength and power to abide to it. I know I would suffer greatly but I also know I would get my “reward” in heaven some day… But again…I can’t really say because, you can’t say until you have walked in the same shoes. It's easy for me to guess what I would do if I don't actually find myself IN that situation. But I know what God would expect me to do, and that would be to not break my marriage vows nad stay by my H "for better or for worse"...

Yes, the infertility is difficult for us. We are 9 years married now…and I’m 32 years old already (not that it’s old, but my biological clock is ticking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). As soon as my H is employed again and our financial position is back on track, we will go for the intro-fertilization treatment called ICSI. This method is very expensive but the only way we can possibly conceive a child… Unless God will do a miracle in our lives. I’m praying for this...but after so many years I don’t know if this is His will for us. We will see what the future holds...

(((becontent)))

Prayers to you and may God give you strength & comfort during this difficult time in your life…

Blessings,
Suzet

Alot there Suzet. My main point is that yes, there is a difference. But there is a sameness also. Both the monk that chooses celibacy and the homosexual that has to choose celibacy, the urges are stil lthe same. The human nature is still the same. The struggle is still the same. One because they chose to, the other because they had to.


Hard? Yes. But again, I think you are limiting God. Look, I see sometimes on here a person comes on and says "My partner is having an affair." Then we find out that the two are not married. Well, sorry...it isnt adultery if you arent married...it is just fornication with someone different.

We try to equate living together and "acting" married as the same as marriage. That it is only a piece of paper. No way! One of my brothers lived with his girlfriend for 5 years. He used to say these things. Well, they got married two years ago and he recently admitted that everything is different. How he feels about her, and she for him. Their outlook.

It is what God calls making one flesh. You cannot make a one flesh marriage with your girlfriend or boyfriend. And while them cheating on you hurts, in reality, you were doing to them the same thing this new person is doing...sinning. Sex and intimacy are reserved for a man and a woman in a marriage. That is where it was designed for and where it works properly. When we try to take it where it was not designed and never intended, we screw it up, cheapen it. And I am as guilty as the next of doing this.

The homosexual cannot have a relationship like a marriage. It is impossible. The only possibility for a homosexual to have a marriage relationship is to marry the opposite sex and to trust God to provide what they need to make that relationship work. You see, Suzet...what they are looking for cannot be found in the same sex. It cannot! You hear of homosexual couples tell of how much in love they are, etc. Or that they have been together for 15 years. Blah, blah, blah. But I feel sad for them. One of the reasons I feel sad is that they really are selling themselves short on this and although they think they have it good, they will never know the greatness of a marriage. They have sold out for a very cheap imitation of what God provides a man and a woman.

Isnt that how the Devil always works? He tries to sell us something "close" to what God is providing. Somethign that is 99% Scriptural. But it is that 1% that will cause us to die. It is that 1% that will leave us disatisfied.

I have a Christian married couple I am friends with. They for years had problems with the sex issue, as the wife really had no interest. She had run around in her college days and now somehow, she didnt feel the urge nor the need for sex. The husband was very disgruntled.

I was talking to her one day and basically said "You know something? As long as you are in defiance and rebellion to God, you probably never will feel it." Of course, she said "What am I supposed to do, just lay there and let him do what he wants?" No, I said. What you do is obey God. You give your all to whatever He has called you to do, and you do it with a cheerful heart. Why? Because you are trusting God to come alongside and to give yo uthe feelings and things that you need.

Well, she took that to heart. She began to seek her husband out, and to allow him to seek her out. She did this in obedience to Christ. And an interesting thing has happened. They now have a sex life they both enjoy, and have had two kids in the last three years.

You see, God calls us to obey. Feelings follow obedience.


No, that is what the opposite sex was created for. Again, look to what I just said about obedience. But if they cannot do that, then yes, they must live a life without the intimacy of a marriage.


I can imagine. Of course I can. And I feel for these people too. I know that this Cross that they must bear is hard, just as I have my own Cross to bear that is hard. But as you said, God didnt create man to be alone. But He also didnt create Adam and Steve. It was Adam and Eve. Man was made in God's image. Woman was made to be the crowning glory of His creation and to be a helpmate, a completer, of the man. A man cannot be the completer or helpmate of another man. Just as a man cannot conceive babies. He doesnt have a womb. Well, he doesnt have what a woman has in offering to another man. The same goes with women trying to fill the roles and responsibilities of a man. They can try to get close...but again, it will just be a cheap substitute.


And I am glad you did. it has been very thought provoking and has remained a good discussion.


He allowed freewill. We are all born the way we are due to freewill, not due to God. A baby born with a cocaine addiction is born that way due to the freewill of its mother, who did cocaine. A homosexual is born due to the freewill of our ancestors, mainly Adam and Eve, who brought sin into this world. Homosexuality is the consequences of our ancestors' sins. And subsequent generations pay for it, jsut as that baby has to pay for what its mother did. This is not God's fault. He didnt sin. He allowed us all to make a choice. And loves us enough to respect that choice. Even if that choice is not for Him.


We should always be compassionate to our fellow man, no matter what their Cross to bear is. Andagain, I do feel for the plight of these people. But their solution to the problems they face isnt empathy or compassion, or living a life of turmoil. Their solution is in the bending of their knee to our Lord, and allowing Him and trusting Him to take care of the rest.

Remember, Jesus NEVER promised us happiness in this life. he only promised peace.

In His arms.

************edit************
Last I checked, Dr. Harley doesn't quote chapter and verse from the bible. In fact, I wouldn't say that is a major factor in anything to do with MB.

************edit**************

dalton - your right - it's not marriage builder - but if you are a christian - you have to be pretty high on God - actually God must come first in your life. Not a Nazi - Nazi's weren't real christians...I don't see any racism or genocide - FH's opinions may be really strongly oriented - but his heart is in the right place...and even other Christians may not wholeheartedly agree with him, but his heart is in the right place - it's with God.

I guess perhaps if he is posting on non-christian threads about following God it might be offensive to non-christians - but for the christians here - which there are many - he has alot of good points and holds us christians accountable - which is what christians are to do for their brothers and sisters.

I'm sorry that you are so disgruntled by it, and even sadder you feel God is dead.

Best of luck in life DD, and I do hope that you are finding help and peace in other people, if it can't be from FH or other Christians.

If you are offended by FH's posts, you may certainly report those posts to the moderators who can then take appropriate action as THEY see fit.

YOU MAY NOT post offensive stuff in retaliation of what you deem offensive.

This thread was managing to keep a pretty civil tone on a very sensitive topic. I have reported your posts to the moderators and hope that this thread will return to a lively, and civil discussion.

I understand what you’re saying MM. I can agree with this.

Of course homosexuals can’t have a relationship like a M. I agree with this. And regarding your suggestion that a homosexual can marry an opposite sex person and trust that God will provide what they need… Well, don’t you think it will be unfair towards the opposite sex person who are heterosexual? Do you think that heterosexual person will marry if he/she knows about the homosexual orientation? I don’t think so. I would not. But maybe the homosexual can keep it secret and hide the fact that he/she is gay and just hope & belief that God will provide. But that would be dishonest towards the heterosexual partner, wouldn’t it? What if it don’t work out and the heterosexual person find out about the homosexual orientation afterwards?

The things is, I have heard and read of many gay believers – children of God – who have gotten married to an opposite sex person out of the hope that he/she would get straight and be “healed” from his/her orientation but where it didn’t worked out that way...and eventually they divorced. And it was people who have stayed obedient to God and prayed that He should take their “burden” away. Remember Bob’s story about his friend? There is a perfect example. Of course God is big and can do miracles. In no way I’m limiting him, but…it’s still God’s decision if He will take that “burden” and “cross” away or not… I also know He sometimes allow a "burden" to remain in a person's life...even if that person stays faithful and obedient to Him.

True. Make sense. Also the other things you've said but which I didn't quote.

Thanks again for your contributions MM! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dalton Dad, my, my, aren't you the tolerant one with anyone who has a "divergent" opinion from yours.

"Hate speach" from a "Nazi-type?" You have a strange definition of "acceptable speech" toward someone you disgree with.

But to each his own...I forgive you.

This has been such a great thread to read - very educating...MM you truly have a great empathy and heart for people. I'm always delighted to read your responces - you remind me so much of a young version of my dad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dalton, what in the world got into you here? FH hasnt lambasted anyone. he has spoken the truth as outlined in Scripture. People can chose to believe Scripture or not. That is their choice and I KNOW Foreverhers has no problem in honoring a person's choice. It doesnt mean that person made the right choice. we do have freewill, and we can choose to do the wrong thing (aka...my wife chose to have an affair).


Dr. Harley is a God-fearing man who has taken his ministry into the secular world. Yes, it is true that he doesnt mention God or the Bible in his work. But, believe me, it is Bible-based. Nothing he teaches or has come up with is in defiance with the Bible. Nothing.


Anytime someone has to resort to calling somone a Nazi, they have pretty much lost the argument. Dalton, you can do better than this. Name calling shows that you do not have anything substantive to say.


Lecture you on disrespect? I dont need to...you just showed everyone exactly what it looks like.


No one does. You have had every right to say what you said here. No one is going to say that you cant post. But Dalton, your diatribe here did not help you get anything across to anyone.

If you dont like what someone has said on here, the better way is to come on and say "Hey, I dont agree...and here's why..." Suzet has done that. I have done that. FH has done that. And I think the discussion has become pretty civil. But doing it the way you just did?

All you will manage to do is either inflame passions, or have people just ignore your post and move to the next.

Either way, even if your point is relevent and accurate, it never gets across.

As I said before Dalton, you have the right to say what you want. But I do believe you can do better.

In His arms.

I did not know that. I just talked to Him this morning. did it happen while I was in morning commute? How did He die? Was He murdered, or was it just old age?

Well, since Dalton has stated that he knows for sure God is dead, I guesswe can shut down this web site and all go out and do whatever we please. Since there are no standards that can be enforced from a dead god, then I guess we can all make the standards up as we go along.

Someone please email me when they hear when the wake and funeral is. I would like to attend. Or at least send flowers.

In His arms.

Funny enuf MM, I tried to negotiate with God the other day hehehe...I was told by sprint that I may be able to go on this trip with him, and I sat in the car telling God i know it might not be his plan so I wont get my hopes up, but I started telling God all the good points (as if he didn't know already) about why i should go....lol...I could see God rolling his eyes at me telling me I can't negotiate with him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyways - I am now going, and keep thanking God <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but asking him to keep us safe of course...

A little off topic - but made me think of it when you said you had just talked to Him this morning. I find I talk to him alot when I m driving... lol

TJ,
Politics and religion, never a good mix.

However... TJ....

What I've embraced about MB, is that it's on the WORLD WIDE WEB.

Translation, it's multicultural, people from all walks of life, countries, come here (sadly enough any of us are here).

BUT..., MB has become widely known as a "Christian Website" ... don't believe me? I can back it up IF need be. I wish it wasn't like that, because I don't believe that was Harley's intent, but that's what MB is known for now.

HOWEVER... , it should be widely known AND accepted that religions vary drastically. Some people have NO GOD, some people have many GODS.

Religion, and politics are personal VIEWS.

I choose to avoid ALL threads that deal with any of the two subjects.

It's not my purpose here. Marriage Building is.

As to HOW "Marriage' is defined, again... personal opinion.

Truly...personal opinion.

So if someone comes here seeking advice, for THEIR Marriage, it's not up to me to define if they are even MARRIED or not, regardless of the race, creed, or sexual orientation.

I'll get off my soap box now.

You know something...let me ask you a question. How much did you know about your husband before you married him? Did you think he was capable of the things that he has done since you were married? If you had known before you married him that he would do these things...would you have still married him?

One of the things that shocked my wife, and her attorney when we went to the custody hearing last year was when I said, on the stand, that even with everything I know about her and what she has done...I would still marry her knowing these things before. They didnt understand. My own mother didnt quite understand. But in the seats in the courtroom was my Christian friend that I am helping start a church. And he understood.

You see, we marry not knowing much about our spouse. We spend a lifetime getting to know them. When we dated, they were on their best behavior. They covered up their faults, as we did with them. Why would we show our faults? That person might not accept us? So, we put on our best behavior until after we are married.

Then we find out that he is a slob, or she nags. We find out that he has alcoholism in his family, and when things get tough, he begins to drink. We find out she might not have any concept of a budget, and runs the family finances in the ground. And so on, and so on. There are many things about our spouse that if we had known ahead of time, we would not have accepted.

So, all I am saying is that my God is all-powerful. He can handle this situation and make it what it should be. That is if the two people involved follow Him. I hate the fact my wife has committed adultery. In some ways, I am sickened by it. That innocense of our relationship has been destroyed. But there is something deeper than that, is there not? Isnt one of the reasons we BSs go thru Plan A and Plan B because we are willing to overcome our spouses faults because there is something much deeper? And so it can be with the couple you talk about here.


As I have learned, they are praying the wrong prayer. Maybe that burden is needed. FH reminded me of the burden that God left on Paul. That without the burden, who knows what direction Paul would have taken. You see, without the burdens of life, we then find ourselves with no need for God. My wife said something very much like this after coming home. You see, she had an abortion when she was 16. It had messed her up her whole life and every November (this is the month she did it), she would be gloomy and reserved. But she began to go to PACE meetins, which are designed for those grieving abortion. They even wen thru the rpocess of naming and then burying their babies.

My wife felt relief after that. She felt that God had taken this burden and that her child had forgiven her. But strangely enough, this burden being removed corresponded with a two year pullback from me, from the church...and culminated in the affair. She said that it seemed like the burden was actuall ya blessing because it kept her close to Christ. And that as soon as the burden was removed, she ran off to do things her own way. And of course, screw things up.

I do not profess to know what God's will is in a particular person's or couple's life, outside of what He has told us in the Bible. Some will be freed from their burdens and others will be left in them. Jesus walked by many blind men as he healed one of them. Why? Why not them all? I dont know. Maybe they needed to still be blind. Maybe they needed the afflictions of life because it was the only way to keep them on the narrow road or was the only way to get them to come to the Lord. Remember, it isnt this life we should be worried about. Our afflictions will only last 60, 70, 80+ years. What we should be worried about is eternity. And if an affliction will keep me from wandering fro mthe Lord, then please Lord...continue to allow that affliction. As my pastor states, our prayer should be "Whatever it takes, Lord. WHATEVER it takes."


As I stated above.


No, thank you. Believe me, I do not know everything! And I am learning a lot here.

In His arms.

Again, after what you have told me about your Dad...I am honored.

In His arms.

Mortarman, sorry for the delay in response. As I've said to FH last week, I don’t really read and post during weekends.

I knew the most important and crucial stuff about my H, his family, his past, "skeletons in the closet" etc. before I married him and he knew the same about mine. We did this firstly because we trusted each other enough to do so and felt "safe" with each other and secondly because honesty was very important to us and we believed it was very important and crucial for a couple to share these things before marriage. We didn't want to receive surprises about each other afterwards and we certainly didn't want to put up a false facade. Also, we didn't want to hide or kept quite about the things we KNEW could affect our M negatively should we not share it beforehand. We wanted to show our "true colors" to each other BEFORE marriage. We both felt it would be unfair, dishonest, deceptive, pretentious and wrong to "cover up" faults & weaknesses, to pretent otherwise and to withold important information from one another. My H and I marry each other IN SPITE of the negative things we knew about each other. And I would STILL marry him today after all the other things I’ve learned about him after marriage.

Of course we find out and discover negative and irritating behavior, tendencies and personality traits about our spouses after marriage. This happen because before marriage, we don't live with them, wake up with them, share a budget with them etc., so it's only normal and natural to discover all these other things afterwards. I’m talking about the negative and irritating behavior and tendencies of someone we can’t learn/know about until we start to live with that person under the same roof. But I don’t think these are the issues we're talking about here. I’m talking about BIG stuff like sexual orientation etc. IMO people MUST share the BIG and CRUCIAL things before marriage... And homosexual orientation IS a big issue. In fact, ANYTHING which can affect a couple's intimate life negatively after marriage should be shared and this is why I’ve also told my H about my sexual abuse before we’ve got married.

Look, I have empathy and understanding for people who don’t share these things before marriage because of shame and fear of rejection. I really do. But it doesn’t make it right either. No matter what the reason, it’s NEVER okay to deliberately and intentionally hide, lie and/or pretend about things for the purpose of trying to hook someone up in marriage with you. It’s false, wrong, selfish, dishonest and deceptive. It’s definitely not a healthy way to start a marriage and such behavior can lead to serious problems after marriage. And the same applies to homosexuals.

I want to tell you about a friend of mine: Before her marriage, her spouse pretended to be a Christian and wonderful friend for 4 YEARS. During these 4 years, he treated her with the uttermost respect. He was always there to support her, to listen to her, to be her friend. And then, after the 2nd week of marriage (they were still on honeymoon), he started to show his true colors and changed from “day to night”. He treated her disrespectfully and later on he also gets abusive towards her verbally and emotionally. Also, he was no longer interested in going to church with her. My friend felt extremely betrayed, but she tried to kept the marriage together for 6 years. Today she is a divorced woman.

I don't agree with your generalization here... Not ALL people marry not knowing much out their spouses and not all of them cover up their faults and put up their best behavior until after they are married...and they should not...especially not regarding BIG issues (like sexual orientation). (Refer to my response above).

You can't say this Mortarman... There is no way you can know or assume for sure that someone is praying the "wrong" prayer. If this is true then it means that I'm also praying the wrong prayers (because me and my H are still childless after 9 years, my H is still unemployed after 2 years, and I still struggle with psychiatric disorders)... But you know what, I KNOW the prayers me and my H are praying is not wrong and that He have a plan for our lives! As I've said last week, God sometimes allow "burdens" and "crosses" to remain in our lives for a specific reason...even if we stay faithful and obedient to Him.

So true...I've experienced this myself. Problems keep us close to God.

We all learn a lot and no one of us knows everything... But it doesn't mean I can't express thanks and gratitude towards a sister/brother in Christ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Translated from part of a chapter about homosexuality (excuse any language errors please). This is from the same book I’ve sent the other extraction from earlier on in this thread. Again, this is also my own POV about this issue:

[color:"blue"]• It’s significant that Jesus Christ expressed a more severe judgment on the loveless, unmerciful and hypocritical Pharisees (follow Matthew 23 - specifically verse 14) than on people who have committed sexual sins.

• In Romans 1:18-32 (specifically 25-28) there is direct reference to homosexual practices. Yet this periscope is not really about homosexuality itself. It deals with the old sin of not honoring God as the Creator. Where honor to God disappears, a person’s life become skew. The person then creates his/her own “god” and the sin of sexual practices (distinguished from orientation) enters his/her life. As a result of disrespect towards God, the relationship between people starts to change. And in the person’s inter-human activities, he/she quickly finds him/herself outside the original creation order (how God intended it to be).

CREATION ORDER: A KEYWORD

Creation order is a key word in the Christen ethic.

In the creation order, the believer sees God’s original plan: undamaged and according to His will. Inside the creation order, one man and one woman live in a sexual and spiritual relationship with each other, cultivate and look after the creation, the ecology is in harmony and the day of rest is used to refresh body and soul.

The creation order has been disturbed by the Fall (fall of man).

After our salvation through Jesus Christ, the word creation order gets new meaning. We want to live as much as possible in this order. The day of rest is important again. Married couples work on their marriage love etc. etc.

GAYS DON’T HAVE A MORE SINFULL (PRE)DISPOSITION THAN NON-GAYS

Homosexuality is, like sickness; suffering; pain and death, a fall out from the creation order. The predisposition to homosexuality - the potential and tendency to live as a homosexual - is however not a more sinful disposition as where the heterosexual person finds him/herself in after the Fall. Even in the heterosexual person is the “sin of the fathers”, the predisposition to other activities which fell out of the creation order.

Homosexual, bi-sexual and heterosexual people each show their own individual “scars” from the Fall. Each of us is just scarred differently. Some are obsessive-compulsive, some are depressed, some are aggressive etc.

WE ALL CARRY SCARS

The homosexual have scars in the areas of sexual orientation. It can exist in his/her genes, just as the “scares” in the genes of some alcoholics and people who suffer from depression.

Two things become clear:

1. It is in collision with the gospel to fail to see the scars of the heterosexual majority and to except the scars of the homosexual as the most obnoxious scar before God and man.

2. The homosexual orientated person is still marginalized, seldom seek out or brought back into the circle of believers. Laymen who can’t change their own predispositions and insist that homosexual individuals (sufferers who carry the scars of the Fall) have to change, can cause damage and harm.

The body of Christ can no longer avoid the lot, the potential, the dilemma and the usefulness of the homosexual orientated person. Just as the church can’t reject and condemn a person who suffers from depression, just as intolerable and anti-Scripture it is to passively or actively revile such a fellow human being in any community (follow Galilee 6: 2-4).

The gay believer is, just as the believer who is a heterosexual sinner, a child of God through His grace. [/color]