It seems this thread has probably come to an end. So, I just want to say thanks again to everyone who have took the time to contribute to this discussion and helped to put some things in perspective for me. This was indeed a thought provoking discussion and I found it very stimulating and insightful. I also want to thank those who have helped to manage an adult & civil discussion about such a sensitive and controversial topic.

Blessings to all,
Suzet

hmmm...it's your thread, Suzet, and you can bring it to a close whenever you wish. However, since most were probably waiting for you to return from the weekend hiatus, the lack of posting may not have indicated a "lack of intererst" in the discussion. It may have simply been waiting for you to post again.



It would seem that Bovet is arguing FOR marriage to be ONLY between one man and one woman, no other exceptions allowed. I have no argument or disagreement with that position.



Okay, I'm hearing a couple of different things here that Bovet seems to be "equating" rather than separating as individual issues. The first is the concept of "original sin" (that sin inherited "sin of the fathers through Adam and Eve"). The second is the concept of ACTING (physically or mentally) on temptations to sin.

Concerning the issue of "original sin," Bovet is correct in equating homosexuality with "any other sin" in that we have "ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God" without the intervention of Jesus Christ. We all, even after accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior CONTINUE to live in an "unglorified" (i.e., "sin-natured") body and in a sinful, fallen, world. We will continue to face many temptations and trials throughout our life from both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL sources. That is the idea behind "pick up YOUR cross and follow me," not to "give into" sinful temptations and desires.

The second idea of "all sin being equal" is true from the standpoint of any "sin being anathema to God." It is equally true that there ARE differences in the severity of some sins that even God recognizes. Topping the list of "serious sins," in my humble opinion, is the sin of "Pride." That one sin leads to the justification of willful disobedience to God and is the sin that originated in Lucifer and has been passed down to us since the Fall of Man.

Homosexuality, indulged and practiced is declared by God to be an "abomination." That would seem to raise it to the level of things like "Idol worship," worshipping the "created" rather than the Creator. Furthermore, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God BECAUSE of the sin of homosexuality "lived out" as a "lifestyle," and "normal." The only other time that God, in His wrath against sin and the CHOICE to sin, utterly DESTROYED the "dwelling place of man" was with the Flood, when the collective sins of mankind had "infected" everyone save Noah. Noah, himself, was still "infected," but he had chosen to obey God instead of "self." Make no mistake about it, ALL sin makes God angry.

We spend a lot of time as Christians talking about a "peaceful God," a "benevolent God," a "Lamb of God," giving the impression that God doesn't JUDGE anyone. Not true, it is a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." The "Lamb of God" will come girded for war and to JUDGE all believers, as well as unbelievers.

Even marriage (that is adultery) is judged to be sufficiently "MORE" heinous than other sorts of sins that it "justifies before God" the ending of the marriage if the Faithful Spouse so chooses.



If Bovet is talking about a believer (homo or hetersexual) being in a church of believers, I would agree. We ARE all forgiven sinners and we call the church to "hold us accountable" for our profession of faith through the mechanism of "church discipline," should it be needed. The church, while accepting all believers, does not then "turn a blind eye" to unrepentant sins that members might choose to engage in. To "ignore" such situations would bring dishonor on God and open the thoughtline that "it's okay to sin" (ala the argument about "liberty in Christ").

On the other hand, if what Bovet is opining about is that Christians should "accept" or "not condemn" an active Homosexual lifestyle as being a sin against God, but "okay" because we don't want to offend anyone, "after all, we are all sinners by birth," then I do have a disagreement with Bovet.

I think the "too inclusive" term, "ANY COMMUNITY," is the item that needs much clarification from Bovet. If he means the "community of forgiven sinners IN Christ," I have no argument with his position. If, on the other hand, he defines "ANY COMMUNITY" to mean active homosexual "lifestyle" communities, then I DO have a sharp disagreement with him. As Christ made a whip with which to "chastise" the moneychangers, etc., in the Temple, there is no "accomodating" sin as "just another lifestyle" and NOT as SIN against God. The "intolerable" position would be to "say nothing" and thereby (through silence) imply to the world that "it's okay to sin against God."

Bovet's argument about [color:"blue"]"the church can’t reject and condemn a person who suffers from depression, just as intolerable and anti-Scripture it is to passively or actively revile such a fellow human being (Read: "Homosexual" (gay and/or lesbian) instead of "fellow human being")
in any community,[/color] is incorrect, in my opinion. Church Discipline is taught by Jesus because sin must be confronted, not excused or tolerated.

To "equate" someone struggling with mental illness of any sort (depression, psychosis, etc.) with homosexuality would likely garner argument even from active homosexuals who do NOT believe in Christ. They consistantly push homosexuality as being "just another normal lifestyle" and certainly not a "sin." Yet, here comes Bovet, with Jungian style philosophy, apparantly making NO distinction between Christians welcoming into fellowship all forgiven believers who have repented of their former "lifestyles" and who have committed to following the Lord in humble obedience to His commands AND the command and responsibility of that selfsame "church" to "police" it's members with respect to active sin and refusal to surrender to God. A "profession" of faith should (according to James) be evidenced by an outward "living out" of that faith. The "works," motivated by love for God who has forgiven us a "unpayable debt" should be seen by all as we "obey God's commands." We don't "work" to obtain salvation, we "work" in response of love for God and what HE did to rescue us from a life of sin.

In any event, we are NOT talking about "rejecting" or "condemning" the person, we are talking about confronting a choice to SIN against God as being "inconsistant with a simultaneous profession of belief in Jesus Christ." This IS the concept of "love the sinner, but 'hate' the sin." Bovet seems to be equating "sin" and "sinner" to arrive at his notion of it being [color:"blue"]intolerable and anti-Scripture[/color] to confront the active choice of committing sin by either a believer or an unbeliever. "Nonsense" would be my response to that sort of a position, as the 10 Commandments (The Law) were given to "make us aware of sin" and it's pervasivenss in human life. Remember, too, that God has stated, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." That implies judgement, sentencing, and carrying out of punishment as determined by the Judge, Almighty God. The "sinner" will be judged on their SINS. It IS the person who will suffer the consequences of the "hated sins," not excused because it was their "nature" to choose sinful choices and behaviors. But that "punishing" of sinners is God's, not our, prerogative. Ours is to "chastise, to point out, to discuss, to declare the Good News of the Gospel message, etc.," in the hope that the sinner will REPENT of the sin(s). God, Himself, LOVES all people in the world and has "proven" that love, and "shown" that love through the provision of our salvation FROM a life of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Yet not all WILL be saved, no matter how much God loves each individual, because many of us will choose sin over Jesus, self over God, selfishness and Pride over submission to the one true LORD.


This statement I am in complete agreement with, as we both surrender our lives to God as our LORD and Savior and become a "new creation" in Christ.

God bless.

FH, I didn’t see your response until now. I’m knocking off from work in 15 minutes time, so for now I only want to respond on the following part of your post:

I’m in total agreement with you that there are differences in the severity of some sins and that even God recognizes that. For example, in Matthew 13:14 Jesus expressed a more severe judgment on the hypocritical Pharisees. I have even read in the Apocrypha Books (the books taken out of the Bible years ago after Jesus’s life here on earth and the books which were discovered again many years later) about the different specific punishments unrepentant sinners will receive for certain sins in h e l l - and certain sins WILL receive greater punishments than others – and I think this is what Jesus was talking about when he said to the Pharisees that “ye shall receive the greater damnation" (Matthews 23:14). So IMO God DOES differentiate certain sins from others in ‘level’ , ‘scale’ and ‘severe ness’ (I know Mortarman is not in agreement with me about this).

The list of the “serious sins” (you are referring to in your post above) is the other reason I believe God DOES view certain sins bigger than others. And although God probably view sins like pride, gluttony etc. as a bigger sin (or at least equal to) the sin of homosexuality (and other sins), many people and churches tend to view the sin of homosexuality as a bigger sin and also treat it as such… For example, God say in His Word that if a person divorce for any other reason than for adultery, that such a person is not allowed to marry again except if the spouse die or if he/she gets reconciled with the former husband/wife. In God’s eyes remarriage to another person than the former spouse is adultery, but in spite of this, churches accept such 2nd marriages in the church and don’t “discipline” such church members even if they remain in the second marriage and as a result continue living in “adultery”.

My point is, God doesn’t view the sin of homosexuality greater than the sin of adultery (or any other sin), but yet the churches and society in general treat them TOTALLY different. If churches really want to treat all sins equally and don’t want to “pick out” a certain sin as more severe than another, they should not allow 2nd marriages to take place in the church (just as homosexual marriages are not allowed to take place in a church). Now, with this being said, I don’t say churches should not allow 2nd marriages (in case someone wants to “flame” me for saying this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). I’m just using an example to illustrate how the church and society differentiate certain sins from others and don't treat them all equally etc. This is very unfair and I have a problem with this "double-standard" which exist in some churces and society in general.

Granted. Churches are made up of people, and many of them have succumbed to the idea of "inclusion" or "not offending" anyone. They, in many cases, begin to reflect the "world" and it's viewpoint instead of God. Some have gone so far off the "deep end" that they think it's okay to have homosexual marriages of the "first kind," and even to have homosexuals as "Pastors," while not making it crystal clear that homosexual acts and/or lifestyle ARE a sin against the very God they claim to represent.

I also know of Pastors who HAVE refused to perform a marriage ceremony(1st, 2nd, etc.) after meeting with the prospective bride and groom because they don't, or haven't, accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and refuse God as LORD of their lives. I, myself, was in that category because I did not receive Christ until two months before we were scheduled to be married, and I knew that Pastor Ron would NOT marry an "unevenly yoked" couple.

I think in the area of a divored person, especially one who may have been the "unfaithful spouse," if they have subsequently surrendered to God and repented of the sin, they should be allowed to marry. But I would advise them to NOT take the step of a "2nd Marriage" lightly. They need to know and understand that their "repentance" can't be for "just show." They have to mean it and they have to be committed to living their lives and their impending marriage FOR God from this day forward and leaving the "past wrong choices" in the past.

Peter denied Christ three times, and Jesus "held Peter's feet to the fire" when He asked him three times..."Peter, do you love me?" Jesus "impressed upon Peter" the seriousness and totality of that commitment to God in LOVE, and then restored him fully. I'd call that a "pretty good model for second chances after willful, and serious, sin.

God bless.

To add to the conversation, the Bible did allow someone to remarry, although it was not God's desire as Jesus pointed out, but it was an exception mediated with God by Moses.

Post moved to this thread.

ForeverHers, I just want to make excuse for my delay in response to the rest of your post of yesterday. I will be offline for the rest of the day but will respond on it again tomorrow. My grandfather just passed away this morning and there are things I need to attend to.

In the meantime and if you can find the time, I would like you to take a look at the post I’ve send this morning from the website link regarding Biblical divorce and remarriage and give me your thoughts on it. I would like to know if you agree with the author’s interpretations and viewpoints regarding this topic.

Thanks in advance and God Bless,
Suzet

((((( Suzet* )))))

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your Grandfather.

I hope that you will all feel the comforting presence of the Lord during this time.

Take all the time you need, there is no rush or hurry. We are having a conversation, not a "life and death" struggle.

I began reading your post(which you obviously spent a lot of time typing, especially if you are anywhere near as slow a typist as I am). I did'nt realise it's length or the amount of information in it until I got partway through it, so I have copied it and look at it "offline." Any specific questions about it you'd like me focus on or opine about?

Again, God bless and comfort you and your family during this time.

Suzet, so sorry about your grandfather! God Bless.

I'm sorry for your loss. I hope the Lord comforts you during this time.

((((( Suzet* )))))

I just noticed John Macarthur is currently doing a series on Homosexuality and the Bible. Here is an excerpt from his website on the content of this series:


His website is www.gty.org. I think I will order it this weekend.

In His arms.

I am going thru your post Suzet. We might want to move this to its own thread for a bette discussion. But for now, as I go thru what you posted, I did remember this excerpt I found on the web some time ago.



Just throwing it out there for discussion!!
In His arms.

Suzet,

Sorry to hear of your loss. Prayers go out for you and your family.

In His arms.

ForeverHers, Melody, AskMe and Mortarman – thanks so much for your comforting words and prayers...it’s much appreciated. My Grandfather was 84 years of age and very weak and ill. He had a good & prosperous life and was always a very energetic and healthy person, but the last few months of sickness has really taken its toll… So, in a way our family expected this – we prepared ourselves for this loss and we knew it would come (sooner or later), but it’s still a shock and very sad when the time actually arrives… But I also know my dear Grandfather is at a better place now where he doesn’t have to endure the suffering and pain anymore…and this thought is very comforting to me during this time of sadness…

I think it will be best to keep the discussions on Homosexuality/Christianity and Biblical Divorce/Remarriage separate. Therefore I will move my post on Biblical Divorce and Remarriage to a new thread and I will also copy and paste ForeverHers's & Mortarman’s post on divorce/remarriage to that new thread so that the discussion can continue there.

ForeverHers, luckily I didn’t have to type the post I send on divorce/remarriage yesterday (it would indeed have taken me very long to do so!). I just copied and pasted the information into the post. A few months ago I’ve copied and pasted the information from the website link into a Word Document and saved it on my hard drive. I’m SO glad I kept it because it seems that the website (where I’ve got the information from) probably don’t exist anymore – it still give the same message as yesterday.

FH, at the moment I don’t have any specific questions I want to ask you, but I do want to know if you agree with the author’s interpretations and viewpoints regarding divorce/remarriage in general and specifically on the biblical list of reasons (extreme and dangerous conditions) which are biblically permissible for divorce in the author’s opinion. You will find these 6 items at the end (conclusion) of the post. I must say after reading the post, these 6 biblical permissible reasons for divorce makes perfect sense to me, but I would like to hear your (and other Christians) opinions about this too. You (and others) can send your responses to the new thread. I will keep this current thread for further discussion on homosexuality only.

I myself will not post and contribute much during the next few days.

Blessings to all,
Suzet