My WS believes he is in love with the OW. He doesn't think that the feelings will go away despite NC. He knows that the relationship with her is doomed because of the strong reaction of our community and mostly our teenage children. He states that he would never give his kids up for anyone, even her. Although, he would do anything for her. He says that he still cares for me, respects me, loves me but is not in love with me. He has also said that he loves her more than he ever loved me and he feels that she is the one he should have ended up with instead of me. He says this is mostly because we are so different. I noticed that we became "more different" after the affair started.

The EA lasted from December 2003 until May 2005. Both deny any PA other than kissing and fondling. I will probably never know for sure if that is truly all. He maintained NC from May until the end of July. At that time, he had voluntarily left our home to "think". He called her and talked with her for a short time and she told him that at was really over and to "give your wife what you give me."

Believe me, the OW is coming off here as much nicer than any of the meetings I have had with her. Also, I knew her before my WH because she was my friend and I introduced them to each other.

My WH wants to leave again but stopped when he realized that the OW was actively dating and moving on without him. He is now back to depressed and moody. We were in the middle of the Retrouvaille classes and he refuses to finish them or to do what they taught us. He says that he will read Dr. Harley's book on recovery from affairs.

He has said so many hurtful and untrue things to me that I really don't know how I will be able to love him like I used to. I really understand the heartbreak and every other emotion involved with infidelity. The fog around him is so thick and he has even rewritten marital history.

As for me, I have been in counseling both with my H and by myself. I am on antidepressants and working on saving what is left of my self-esteem. I did try suicide once two weeks ago as an attempt to escape the pain. I changed my mind because I didn't want to add to the pain my children are going through. My WH now feels trapped by fear of me doing it again. I probably just shot my marriage down the drain and I am truly sorry but I don't know how to make it better except to just take care of me and the kids.

Is there hope left, or am I hanging on to something that is dead and gone?

He is so cold and acts like he is miserable. I'm sure he is but shouldn't he be? I went through anger a long time ago but I feel it coming back now. How could he do this to me. Who gave him the idea that cheating on me with my dearest friend was OK? The selfishness involved just blows me away. Then he turns around and acts like I'm selfish for wanting to work things out and rebuild our marriage. Like I'm selfish for wanting our marriage and family to stay together.

Sometimes I could just scream but I can't. I need to keep it together for me and the kids. What really is unbelievable is how many tears I can cry. Is there no end to that well. My friends say I will know when I have had enough. They are amazed that I am still hanging in and haven't kicked him out to go enjoy the sure H$@% that he will have with the OW. He doesn't believe that she is a serial cheater and that he is just one in a long line of duped men. Even her best friend will tell me that she is selfish and a liar.

Please somebody, tell me that I am not completely stupid for believing that there is a chance for this marriage. We have 21 years together. We have been married for almost 18 and have 3 teenage kids. A DS17, a DD 14, and a DS 13. Most of those years we were your average family. Some potholes in the road but a lot of love and caring went into our marriage. Since this A, I have come to realize that we were lacking some very important ingredients. Communication needed to improve, esp. from him. He tends to hold stuff in and let it fester. I always want to talk and spend time with him and the kids. Also, honesty was seriously lacking. I found it hard to be completely honest with him about finances or chores because I hate for him to be angry with me. I have never been afraid of him or of having a discussion or disagreement. He has never physically harmed me in any way. I just don't handle rejection well and I would feel rejection and disapproval when he was angry with me. And obviously, he wasn't honest with me either if he had an attraction to my friend and didn't tell me about it. Esp. since it progressed into an affair.

By the way, I didn't realize what the OW was like until it was too late. I believed all the BS she gave me. I was kind of gullible.

This site is amazing. I have read every letter to Dr. Harley. Thank you to all the veterans for the advice from the trenches. God Bless all of you.

Loni

Hi Loni, welcome to MB. Check out this link BS toolkit Have you read Surviving An Affair? Yes, all WS's rewrite the marital history to justify their A. It sounds like your H is going through withdrawl. Hang in there.

Wow! Bob is amazing. How can I be sure this is withdrawal and not just a continuation the the A? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Loni,

I am sorry you are going through this. It is hard but read all you can to help you through this. And post here for som egreat advice.

As I read your story I was seeing my marriage. My H held everything in and didn't tell me what he was feeling either. It's almost like looking in a mirror with how we interacted with our spouses.

I wish you the best and pray this will work out for you. At least your H is still at home, my moved in with the OW. Your chances are great to make this work.

Hurting,

I am incredibly sry for your sitch. I will keep you in my prayers and others, like you, who are going through the worst case scenario.

Yes, my H is home. But he is not the same person that I used to know. Withdrawal is very difficult for both of us. My WH just decided yesterday to quit smoking. I hope I can deal well with withdrawal from the OW and nicotine.

Loni

Just read all the "reverse babble" posts. I am definetely going to do that. It will be hard, though because I am usually more emotional than not.

Dear Loni,
I am so sorry for your situation. We have all been there before. The pain is so intense, I understand the thoughts of suicide, believe me. Just keep in mind, that the feelings you are having will start to subside some after time. Now would be a good time to see a counselor for ic and your doctor for antidepressents.
I began to gain some perspective on my situation after about a month of being on the anti-depressents.
I used to have imaginary scenerios of me running off the road into trees.
My discovery of the EA was in Aug., and I am now to the point that I know I will be alright if things don't work out between me and w/h. Life will go on, and once again be good. So don't give up friend. The feelings you are experiencing are real, but regardless of whether you remain married or divorce, time will help to take away the feelings of hopelessness and pain.
Its corny but true,
The sun will come out tommorrow.

Hi Kd.

Thanks for the support. I too had the same fantasy about running into trees. I actually would drive by these huge oaks and wonder how fast I would have to go to finish the job.

I am on antidepressants and seeing a counselor. I have also been working hard to give it all to God and let him handle it. This site is wonderful and really helps me keep perspective.

Plan A is really hard and I hope you are getting the advice here that you need.

Loni

I am going through similar with my WS. Don't do anything to yourself. While I have thought about it almost daily, I know it is the cheap way out and my kids would never recover. Besides, your kids need you. Not only that, don't allow your WS to have someone else later raise your kids. That is also motivation for me to not do anything also.

I pray your situation will work out. Stay on the boards and read as much as you can. Some of it will drive you crazy, but you don't want to put your head in the sand.

Try to survive each day. No, try to live each day God has given you to the best of your ability. Lean on people here.

Thankyou for your support. I am doing better. I guess some days are worse than others and I am trying to remember that nothing can stay this bad forever. I am busy counting all the wonderful ways that God has blessed me and not focus on how horrible things "might" become.

WS sees the MC today by himself. I am praying for his mind to be open to whatever the suggestions are the MC will make. If he isn't, I will continue following the advice of Bobpure and the BS toolkit. I really wish that I had seen this site 2 years ago. It would have saved me from so many textbook mistakes and a lot of heartache from listening to his fog babble.

I have already recommended this site to a few friends who have family going through the same junk as we are.

Loni

Well, WS went to MC last pm and came home quiet. I didn't ask him about the session but just presented a cheerful attitude upon his return. He did say that it ran long and he was drained. Something nice occurred when he came home though. He came up to me and rubbed my back like he was happy to see me. Then at bedtime he kissed me several times and then kissed me goodbye this am when he left for work. Not the usual peck on the lips but two sweet kisses. I hope I am not reading too much into it. I was cool with him though, receptive but not clingy.

What do you all think?

Last night, my WH asked my 13 yo DS why he has been having so many headaches. DS told him that he thinks it could be stress because of our marriage problems. WH thought for a minute and told son he would have to learn how to deal with stress and that he can't be missing school. It sounded kind of harsh except he said it very gently. I think he is slowly getting the idea that the A affected more than just him and I.

he seems much more introspective instead of combative and argumentative. I didn't even get to practice my "reverse babble". Ha Ha.

Loni

Loni:

I have been following your posts for a while but have not responsed to any because you are getting some great advice from others here and I really think that the MC may be making some inroads.

The message that I want you to know is that there is hope. If you have read any of my posts you know my story. My FWW had an A many years ago and even though it ended a long time ago, until D-Day there were many barriers that prevented us from having the type of relationship that all couples should enjoy. I won't go into the details but suffice it to say that a marriage cannot work unless there is radical honesty between the parties.

As for you particular sitch. I think we all wish that we would have found this site before the A ever started. There is so much that can be done pretty simply that could indeed Affair Proof a marriage. But we are all here for the same reason...Post A. Looking back, I remember everything so well when the A was happening because it seems that almost in an instant my wife became another person. She said and did things that hurt very much which in turn caused me to have destructive behavior in our relationship. This cycle continued for more than 10 years until it came down to the end. I could not continue and after finally expressing all my feelings and thoughts of why we were where we were, D-Day happened. Today, I can't believe that we are both happier than we have ever been and look and feel like the perfect married couple. We are doing all the right things and both our love banks are overflowing.

Everything that you husband says right now has to be taken with a grain of salt (and maybe occassionally a swig of tequila). His mind has been abducted by aliens and unfortunately he is not himself. He has to think that he loves OW more than he ever did you in order to be able to justify what he is doing to you and the kids. DO NOT consider doing anything to yourself. I have had days where the back end of a semi looked like my whole answer. But if you even seriously consider this whether successful or not, it only makes matters worse for everyone. Worst case scenario is that you are out of the picture and all the sudden OW has an open door to become your kids mother. You do not want that for sure.

I am no expert on these matters but it seems to me that if you can continue with Plan A, push for negotiating NC, and stay away from LB's that eventually your WH will become grounded enough to see what mistakes he is making and how to fix them. His solution is so simple to all of us (just make a committment to you, NC with OW and try to start rebuilding your M by both meeting each others EN's) but with the dense fog that he is currently in, he feels like he is pulled different directions.

Your M is salvagable at this point. Unfortnately, for the meantime you will have to carry a large part of the burden. When (not if) he comes out of the fog and starts to contribute more to the process, he will have more respect for you and it will be easier for him to start meeting all of our EN's which in turn will make you want to meet all his EN's instead of focusing on what has happened in the past. You will never forget what has happened but with committment and hard work you can both get past this and have a better marriage Post-A than you could have imagined Pre-A.

One little disclaimer. Stay the course regardless of what else you find out about their relationship. If it actually is a PA instead of just an EA, it really doesn't change things. The betrayal and dishonesty that he caused is already there no matter what. As my favorite poster on this site, Mr. Wonderings often says, once you start down the slippery slope, it is really hard to stop the slide. Contact leads to filling the love bank, a full love bank leads to PA more often than not. As hard as it is to think about this (I hope you are right that it has not progressed to this point) there are many of us BS here who can attest that you can still both recover if you follow the plans and advice here carefully. Plan A is a must for you. It is not fair that the BS has to doing all the work trying to get the M back on track, but as someone once told me, fare is something you pay to get on the bust, there is no fair in life.

Looking back, although I considered the possibility that my W was involved with someone else, I didn't take that possibility seriously because it would have been so out of character for her. So instead of doing a Plan A trying to make her fall back in love with me after she withdrew, I just proceeded to keep LB'ing and started living my own seperate life. This in retrospect in all likilyhood contributed the A in the first place and definately kept it going longer than it would have if I had done the right things. I wish I knew then what I know now. Keep posting, keep working, and there are many here who will be praying that your WH comes back to earth and starts over. Right now he is operating exactly out of the WS handbook.

P.S. If you need some tequila to go with that grain of salt, let us know and we will all pitch in.

nottoday, that was an excellent post and gives us BS some hope that our M can be salvaged. I don't think any of us ever think it could happen to us. That is why the denial is so hard to escape, until d-day and your whole world starts to fall apart.

You are so right about the BS having to do all the grunt work to keep the M going until the fog lifts from WS. In my case I have just confirmed the PA and WW has agreed to NC. NC has been broken, and we will try NC again very shortly.

I am convinced that if I had not Plan A up until now, my M would be over. Plan A has given me a chance to recover from this. It's a hard plan, especially when you try not to LB given the circumstances. Everyone else around you is telling you to "get on with your life" or "give her the boot", while you are trying to be the "lighthouse" as ark would say.

My WW is in a deep fog right now and I can see her struggling with this. Everyone who has been through this say the same thing "you can't begin recovery until NC is established". I have come to realize this. NC is critical, but in many cases it is the hardest part to establish.

Fortunately, I didn't have to deal with the NC part. I didn't find out about the A until more than 10 years later. In many ways this delay has helped speed our recovery even though looking back I can recognize the symptoms of the fog and withdrawal, the A was broken off by my FWW on her own accord.

I know that there are probably my WS who lurk on here that have not disclosed their mistake to the BS. Please, I beg you if you are lurking, disclose and let the chips fall where they may. I am grateful that we still have many years ahead of us to enjoy our new relationship. But at the same time, the barrier that was created by the A and the inherent dishonesty and mutual destructive behaviors on both our parts post-A left emotional scars that are hard to heal.

My FWW still deals with a huge amount of shame and guilt over what happened. When we were talking the other day, I told her that now that we know what our relationship can be like, that even if I had had a crystal ball and knew everything that would happen to us over our lifetime (including the A), as long as I knew that we would be in the place we are today, I would still do it again.

I wish that for both of us we hadn't had to endure the pain and suffering caused by my W's poor decision to seek to fill her needs outside the M. I recognize what events led up to this and how that her judgement became clouded enough to make such a poor choice and also recognize that if I had known how to meet her needs better, she might not have been at that crossroads in her life.

The important thing is not that she took the wrong turn when she came to the crossroads, rather that after going down that road a ways, she realized that she was lost and made a U-turn. It took a lot longer to get back on the right road than it did to make the wrong turn to begin with but nonetheless it has changed both of us forever in an overall positive way.

For all the BS's in the world, there is hope until the D is final. Even if no reconciliation, we will all be stronger and wiser in the long run as a result of our WS's mistakes. I truly feel for those BS whose WS is not repentant. Since D-Day was a long time after NC for me, I didn't have to have some of the issues thrown in my face about how the rationalization was made by the WS that made this all right in their mind. I don't know how I would have handled that.

Keep fighting the good fight. Even after recovery, there are good days and bad days. Thankfully, on my bad days as soon as we can get together and go for our nightly walk, everything is back in perspective. We have true radical honesty, POJA and absolute NC policy. I believe that these all have to be in place before true recovery and reconciliation can begin.

Hello to Notto and Hope,

I have been reading your posts and I have been really hoping the best for you. We have really chosen the most difficult road to follow. Sometimes, I wonder how much easier it would have been to give him his walking papers and grieved the relationship and moved on with my life. He might have realized that the OW was not the answer by now and the affair would have died a natural death with little left over residue to hurt me. My WH would probably not have chosen to come back to the marriage because that would mean admitting he was wrong and eating [email]S@^$[/email] for awhile.

I never really wavered though in my commitment to my marriage. I must have really meant my vows when I said them because I am really standing by them.

I miss my H very much. His body is still home but his heart is not and neither is his head. I want to hold him and laugh with him like we used to. It has been 7wks since we have been intimate and I physically miss him. I even dream about having sex with him and wake up more frustrated than ever.

I am working very hard to avoid the LBs. I am just trying to show him that everything is here when he opens his eyes to see it. Sometimes, LBs are difficult to prevent in his fog status but The Toolkit for BS' is helpful. Thanks for both of your inputs and I will continue to keep up with yours as well.

Don't worry about my physical safety. My kids are the center of my life other than God and I can't and won't hurt them to save myself from more pain. My head is on straighter and I am actively seeking help from IC and friends and God. I am OK. Thanks for the encouragement.

Loni <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow is the last session for Retrouvaille. We missed the last two because of his reluctance to go and my suicide attempt. He doesn't want to go tomorrow and I really do. Should I insist? Would it be a huge LB if I do? Or should I just let it go and continue with the ENs and reverse babble? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have another question for anyone out there who would know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> How can I check if he is IMing or e-mailing with her. He tends to delete histories. Any really good ways to read IMs if there are any?

<<<bump>>> just need some answers.