I posted a week or so ago about my current situation and at this time am not going to rehash it all.

I do have a question and it is regarding the current counseling I have been getting. My current counsel also happens to be my Pastor. I love the guy dearly but believe he is a bit off base and told him so today.

Basically, my wife is having a 'phone' affair and has fallen in love. This has been going on for about 3 months now and we've been in counseling for about a month or so.

Anyway, my counselor and I are in a disagreement over the need for a Plan B. His opinion is that since we are progressing (we are working through a workbook type plan of recovery) I should not press for a Plan B.

My position is that the wife will not break off the communication with the OM and has told me in our counseling session, and I cannot see how one can progress towards recovery when she is still in contact with OM.

We had a bit of a blow out today and I tried to get my point across which he completely understood. He also said he would support my Plan B position, but warned me of the dangers.

What I am left with according to him are two situations. One is to continue with the counseling and hope that through the counseling, her heart will change. The other option is to move to Plan B which ends the counseling and moves towards separation and D.

So, I am torn. I have the Plan B letter all set to go. Part of me wants to follow my counselors advice and stay the course, while the other part of me wants to draw a line in the sand. Hey, I'm the one with sleepless nights, on meds, etc. etc.

Then again, I place a lot of weight in my counselors opinion since he has been doing this for quite some time and has been very successful.

I guess I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

So, anyone have an opinion one way or the other? I know in the end it will be my call, but I am looking for any advice that folks can share.

thanks,

john

What was his reasoning to believe that recovery can work while contact with otherman continues and what was his reason to believe that your wife could come back you while talking to the other man.

Also what did you argue or say how no contact is essential.

You asked for opinions so:

One month of counseling isn't enough. I would really urge you to have at least 6 months of counseling before you go to Plan B. I don't think setting a date is unreasonable.

The whole "Plan A/Plan B" idea is to fix some of the the problems in the M so that the BS is supplying more of ENs for WS. If contact doesn't end, then you "pull the rug" from WS during Plan B so that WS is left just with OP to fulfill her needs. The thought is that WS will then choose BS over OP.

Plan A/Plan B is not perfect--it doesn't always work. E.g., suppose the BS for whatever reason can't help WS meet her needs. If not, then Plan B is simply a confirmation to WS that the M was doomed.

A likely response of WS to your ultimatum is, "He never really loved me anyway. This proves it. He never listens to me. He doesn't want to understand me."

Also, if WS is in a "phone affair", Plan B could lead to a physical affair.

Well, I don't think it even matters that there is a disagreement between you and the counseler on Plan B..........the issue is WHY THE HE** ARE YOU IN MARRIAGE COUNSELING WITH AN ACTIVELY CHEATING WW? I don't know the answer to whether you should be on PLan B or not but I can tell you that you are certainly NOT MAKING any progress on ending thar affair with MC while she is "in love--barf" and actively cheating. Are you rich? I hope so, becasue you might as well be burning your money.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Is the 6 months that you "speak of" assuming that the WS is still actively cheating? Please enlighten me some here.

Thanks

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Plan A can sometimes take a while... the WS isn't in an A whether it is EA or PA on a whim. If she is still willing to go to MC, then there is hope. I realize that the whole point of setting personal boundaries is that you are willing to stand by them... but sometimes these boundaries need to be a moving boundary towards where you expect to get to. If you just draw the line in the sand and expect results, your W may run the other way. You may need to start with easier boundaries... like you are with expecting she attend MC with you.

A goal... maybe 3 months or 6 months... whatever you feel you can handle (I know the sleepless nights, etc. are so hard and one day feels like an eternity), but Plan B should be a last result.

Shaden

I just read Lemonman's posts and maybe what I said wasn't quite right.

When I found out about my W's PA, I told her that she would have to leave if she was going to continue... so I guess I was willing to go to Plan B immediately. Thankfully, she chose to stay and we are rebuilding.

Your situation has not developed yet to a PA, but an EA is very dangerous. Maybe 6 months wait is not practical. If you asked her to leave if she continues are you prepared for the consequences?

Shaden

I think the question would be, have you filled up your wife's lovebank enough to withstand going to plan B.
Only you can determine that. If her bank is on empty, plan b probably wouldn't work.
Has Plan A been fully utitlized. Another words have you exposed her affair to family, friends, o/p etc? Have you been meeting some of her ENs? Or more directly, have you shown her through love and Plan A what she will be missing?
It is hard to do plan a when she is not living with you.
These are some of the things you need to think about.
You will recieve some great advice and counseling here.

Shaden:

Well, I respect your right to an opinion on all of this...but I have to respectfully disagree. If the boundaries are relly "moving" to help accomodate the WS into doing what you "expect"..........you better be ready to be moving alot of boundaries. Perhaps "boundaries" is not a good word. When I played football in college (not at a major football powerhouse mind you), I once caught a TD "out of bounds" and we lost the game....I wish that boundary had been "moveable"...we would have won a whole 3 games that season...instead of two.

Second, I really don't think there is any correlation with a WS "willing to go to MC" yet still cheating with possible reconciliation. There are a couple of reasons why...first alot of "marriage Counselors" are morons and could not find their Aholes with a funnel...yet alone help someone recover a marriage....second...Marriage Counseling is all about honesty and committment......BOTH of those characterisitcs are NOT possible when their is active cheating.

You know how I see a Wayward Spouse "agreeing" to Marriage Counseling, while still actively engaged in an affair? What they are really saying to you is: "Lets go to Marriage Counseling, so you get off my A$$ about this affair, and I look good to everyone else as having "tried" to save the marriage" It is usually a self serving ploy and a BS who goes "along with this" is usually 100% of the time left with doubts of progress, and left even more frustrations...(see Hope's thread).

A BS who goes to marriage counseling as their way of saving the marriage is not saving $hit. I am not an expert, but the time, money and energy that one gives into a farce MC session with an active WS could be much better spent...exposing the affair to it's core..and hastening it's undeniable death...NOT prolonging it by a "moral compromise".

Just my .02, fell free to disagree...it is A-Ok with me.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sorry Lemonman and John.

I don't think I explained my first post very well, hence my second which was more in agreement with Lem.

It is impossible to continue on if your WS is refusing to end the A... but what I've read in many of these threads, the immediate movement to Plan B is not always necessary.

What I meant about moving boundaries is, for examiple with my WW, I asked for a NC letter. At first she resisted. I left it alone for a few days and asked again... she grudgingly agreed but did not write it... I left it alone for a couple of weeks and also listened to MC who said if I push it, W will write it to get me off her back, but it doesn't guarantee NC. Eventually, she wrote it and handed it to me without asking again of her own freewill. If I had stuck with my original line in the sand that I must have NC letter now or I Plan B, then I would be living alone right now rather than moving forward in recovery. Sometimes, time is required for S to come to agreement on their own. They resist demands for the sake of resisting. My W did not want to feel manipulated or controlled.

If you feel that your W is just "using" MC, then Plan B may be right... but if you feel some "softening" of her stance and a wilingness to still talk, then one month isn't nearly long enough.

But, eventually, that line in the sand must be drawn for your own respect, self-esteem, and boundaries.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Shaden

To Lem and Shaden,

Thanks for the advice.

The situation with the MC is based upon a biblical view. My MC is not costing me a dime either. I simply have no money and so far, he has been extremely helpful. His main issue is that as long as we are making progress, then we should stay the course. One month ago, my wife was committed to leave, period. Now she is wavering. So it has gone from 100 percent over to 50-50.

The MC feels that if I go to a Plan B, this will in effect kill the current restoration plans and start separation with a road to divorce. I cannot argue that point. Of course the benefits are that it will force the ball into her court and force her to make some sort of decision one way or the other not to mention that at that point, the kids will find out. All this could and I say could force her into a PA, or as others have said, only make her harder.

Then again, if I stay the course, there is no guarantee that her heart will change. Remember, this is a book that we are working through and we have to do homework. The commitment was made to work through the book. Yes, I feel that it is merely "trying" on her part, but I might be wrong. She IS doing the homework, and I know for a fact that she is utterly torn.

As for the ongoing EA, I am not sure exactly where it is at. I have to check the cell phone records and see just how much she is in contact.

The MC has said that at this point, she is in a place where she is incapable of agreeing to cut it off. Yes, that sounds stupid, but forcing someone to do something in no way guarantees that they will follow through. She has to want to cut it off, and right now she has attemped several times and has wanted to write the final letter but she cannot do it. Yes, she is having her cake and eating it too.

I expressed this with the MC in that I feel like I am being made the fool here. At least I feel like a fool. I expressed my concern and likened it to the alcoholic and at how can they recover while still drinking? He agreed, but again, wants me to understand the ramifications of moving to Plan B. He will support my decision if I move to a Plan B.

Like I said, it's a tough issue. I'd like to toss her with the Plan B. She has already been exposed to her family and some of her friends. My children do not know yet and my MC is warning not to get them involved. Then again, I don't want my emotions to run the show and possibly knee jerk the situation. My MC has worked pretty hard up to this point just to get us working on this book.

This whole thing has been going on since July. I'd like to see more progress, but my MC is telling me that it is going to be a long haul and that there is no overnight fix.

His main concern right now is that my wife KNOWS what is right and what she SHOULD do, but she is in such a low place that she is unable to do the right thing because of her total loss of all hope. Of course she says there is still hope, but indicators are telling me she is simply going along for the ride and in the end will simply justify her leaving by telling everyone she "tried".


john

IMO I think free counseling is not a waste of time in this situation. John gets to spend time with his wife, discuss their situation with a third party, he can't help but meet some needs during this time, and he gets to disrupt the EA by spending time with WW he may not otherwise get to spend with her.

I would also advise John to purchase a voice activated DIGITAL voice recorder at Radio Shack (along with a ton of batteries). He can get more intel on the EA than just a cell phone bill. Hide it at home or in her car. Whereever she has these phone conversations. Do not disclose what you hear. Just monitor for your information and be prepared to hear a lot more than you bargained for. It's all fog talk so do not take it personally.

W

W,

>I would also advise John to purchase a voice activated DIGITAL voice recorder at Radio Shack (along with a ton of batteries). He can get more intel on the EA than just a cell phone bill. Hide it at home or in her car. Whereever she has these phone conversations. Do not disclose what you hear. Just monitor for your information and be prepared to hear a lot more than you bargained for. It's all fog talk >so do not take it personally.

Well, this got me in big trouble the first time as I tapped our land line and discovered the A when she was talking to her best friend. Next day, the machine glitched and started making noises and my wife discovered it. Of course WWIII broke out.

Seeing that it is illegal and she still has the tape, I don't dare go the route of trying to tape any more conversations. If she wants or wanted, I could go to jail or suffer huge fines in excess of 25k! Besides, I already know from the cell phone records that she is calling him. So, what's more to know?

Right now OM lives 900 miles away. My wife can't drive there and she surely isn't going to fly there, so hearing their "love you's" etc. will only hurt more.

Thanks though for the input. I do feel that the more time we spend together is a good thing, and with the homework, it at least is making her think.

Then again, I'm torn and feel like a patsy, but like I asked initially, at what point do you shun your MC's opinion and work for what you feel is best? But is what you feel really the best thing? Plan B sounds great and has worked effectively for quite a few people, but it is not the all to end all either. There are risks with both options and I guess I'm looking for the option with the less risk, if it exists that will restore.

I must say though that I am really leaning to Plan B, but maybe I'll give it a few more sessions and then re-evaluate. One good thing is that the Plan B letter is getting daily revisions. This extra time is working out in that regard because I have a chance to continually re-read and make some changes to the letter since I want this to be as near perfect as I can.

thanks again,

john

Just so others are clear. Tapping of phone lines is arguably illegal in your own home, however, putting a recorder in your home is not (a car not registered to you is iffy as well). Buy a good digital one that makes no noise and do not get caught as John here did. WS's hate getting snooped on so though it is Okay to snoop, its a LB to get caught. Finally, it would behoove anyone recording to hide all receipts and deny, deny, deny if they get caught recording anything. No prosecutor in his right mind wants to prosecute a BS taping his/her WS, so you need to give him every reason to believe you didn't do it. It's the prosecutors job to prove you did it, offer no evidence and suggest that maybe WS did it herself to spy on you and/or get you in trouble. Like I said the prosecutor does not want to prosecute a "he said/she said" case against a BS.

Furthermore, do not feel threatened when a WS threatens to prosecute for taping them. This is an attempt at manipulation...to keep you in line and off his/her back regarding the affair which preceeds every other concern WS has. The secrecy of the affair is the WS's concern so babble right back inviting them to try to turn you in as they have no intention of prosecuting you. Keep the "taping you" defense a secret until you are asked for a statement. Then claim to the officer you know absolutely nothing about any tape device and perhaps she/he is setting you up.


I would argue that if you can handle the degrading comments about you, the more information you have the better it is to combat your enemy (ie - OP and the affair). You will discover things you are doing right and change things you are doing wrong. You can glean weaknesses of the OP and attack those weaknesses.

For example, I purchased my WW some perfume as a gift. I heard her tell OM how much she hated it, it smelled like her mom, etc. So when I discussed the perfume and asked her about it, she nicely told me she liked it though it was something more along the lines of her mother's liking. I then acted as though I knew that was the kiss of death (which I would not have otherwise known) and offered to return it for her. I got to express just how well I knew my wife and could read right through her little white lie regarding her liking the perfume. Was it a big victory? No, but Plan A is a series of little victories in the vacuum of the affair.

Plus, I really got to understand that the relationship was a complete fantasy. I heard my WW lie over and over to OM to string him along in their relationship. Once you hear that it becomes easy to understand you are going to win in the end and not take the fog speech so personally.




I never did Plan B, so I am not an expert. I think it would be a LB for you to seemingly fake therapy and then go to Plan B the next day. You may need to discontinue it a week or two before Plan B.

Ultimately, there is no "safe" route in any of this. The only killer is doing nothing. Make your plan and stick to it, in spite of the risks.


Try this at counseling. Many here advocate a boundary of "no contact". Well, I didn't have to have that boundary immediately as long as they weren't actually seeing each other (I wasn't gonna share her). Instead, I took the position that I simply refused to be in a loveless marriage. That was my boundary. I was committed to Plan A for a certain fixed time (about 4 months) then Plan B. When you discuss "no contact" at marriage counseling put it in that boundary framework. State you do not feel loved and protected as long as WW is in contact with OM and simply refuse to be in a loveless marriage. She can not deny how you "feel". Then eventually she may give up contact as either an expression of love for you or merely capitulation. Then it becomes her choice instead of merely giving in to your demands. It also allows you to maintain credibility while you stick to your boundary even while WW continues to talk to OM during your Plan A. (The OM was long distance too, if they had had physical contact this would have been impossible for me to endure...Plan B would have come sooner).

Hope this helps.

Good luck, W

Well of course there is a risk in plan B. Did you ask the counselor what is the motivation for her to change or quit the affair if there is no consequences for her making contact. He will argue most likely the it is wrong thing but you know as well as i do that ws rarely come home for that reason in the first place.

Ask him what her motivation is this without consequences? Also ask him if you haven't how she could start to regain her feelings for you if her most important emotional needs are being met by the om and every time you try to meet them they are blocked by her walls that she puts up.

MrWondering,

Thanks for the input.

A couple of observations. One is that any further taping goes against "my" morals. I had a hard enough time getting over the first tapping. It was wrong and I asked my wife to forgive me on that matter and she she did, or so she says.

As far as knowing what the OM is doing right and what I am doing wrong by listening, don't see that it would help. My wife has already expressed to me, her friends, family and the MC that the changes over the lasts months she has seen in me are incredible. She also believes that my changes are the real deal and this time I truely have changed my ways.

But...she is at such a low place that she cannot trust God or herself to throw herself back into the marriage. At least not at this point. Remember, just a little over a month ago, she was 100 percent sure she was leaving. Now, she is wavering and has told me that she is leaning to stay because we have so much history, blah, blah.

Then a couple of days later, she is suffering from the emotional withdrawl from the OM and she feels the need to call him. The rollercoaster starts again.

As far as the counseling goes and me faking it, I will not fake it. That would be dishonest and I'm not goint to play tit for tat here. I will continue with the counseling and put my full effort into it. I will also continue to love my wife to death over the next 4 weeks.

But if after these next 4 weeks, there is not marked improvement as in her cutting off all ties to the OM, then it is time for "shock and awe". The hammer will fall and right now, I am 90 percent sure that my plan will be carried out in 4 weeks especially after looking at last months cell phone records. 21 calls in one month to this guy, not to mention a call to him yesterday.

So, at this point, I will press forward with hope and continue with the counseling and then drop the bomb if needed after Thanksgiving.

john